From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 02:38:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA18025 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 02:38:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA18021 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 02:38:49 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-031.mcn.net [208.26.146.31]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA18045 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 00:38:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35496ADE.6ED4E69E@mcn.net> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 00:25:34 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: 101 Stuff References: <01bd7381$fd6d0e00$29198fd1@nacelp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Plecan wrote: > > We here at CSH., HQ., are experiencing a technical problem. > While slightly off list, the edge is blurring here between personal > and 101 projects. Anyway, we need a couple things. 1. a set > of ecm connectors like used on the 747's (it used two connectors), > 2. a set off a 730 type ecm (it had three connectors), with like a > foot (preferably more) of wire on them for doing some bench work. > 3. Then a entire harness outta like a 90-91 2.8 Celebrity, or any other > 1227730 ecm equipped car. Not looking for freebies, just resonable > priced ones. > Nor a worry mate. > Bruce What's reasonable? Local bone yard sells harnesses for $50, and ECM for $50. Can maybe get both for $75, but seems high to me. If interested, I'll make some calls. Shannen From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 02:42:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA18087 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 02:42:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.arlec.com.au (mail.arlec.com.au [203.36.152.195]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA18083 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 02:42:17 -0400 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Fri, 01 May 1998 17:36:30 +1000 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from default (192.1.8.200::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.6); Fri, 01 May 1998 17:36:29 +1000 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:36:28 +0800 Message-ID: <01BD751F.4A6AEF80.dzorde@soanar.com.au> From: Dan Zorde To: "'diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Supercharged 3800 Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:36:27 +0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 106 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu AU$1=US$0.646 Dan dzorde@soanar.com.au -----Original Message----- From: TBK [SMTP:terryk@foothill.net] Sent: Friday, 01 May, 1998 1:40 PM To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Supercharged 3800 What's the current exchange rate? TK -----Original Message----- From: Peter Jaramaz To: 'diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 9:52 PM Subject: RE: Supercharged 3800 >Thanks for the reply, > >What would be the difference if the SC is mounted downstream (i.e after) >compared to upstream (i.e before) the throttle body - to me it seems almost >the same i.e interms of throttle body restriction, 10 psi vaccum after the >TB vs 10 psi of pressure before the TB would result in the same flow across >the TB. > >For me, mounting the SC after the TB would make for a cleaner install. > >BTW to all those interested, I can get the Eaton as fitted to the S/C 3800 >for AUS$950 across the local parts counter. > >Peter > >---------- >From: Strasser >Sent: Friday, May 01, 1998 4:14 PM >To: DIY >Subject: Fw: Supercharged 3800 > >If you mount your S/C downstream of your TB, it seems you will see little >top end gain unless you increase your TB size. Once the pressure drop >across your TB reaches a maximum (in fluid dynamics terms, this is the >point >of "choking" -- sonic flow of a gas), it can "flow" no more...no matter >what >is pulling on the other side. For example, in carbureted applications, the >installation of a roots type supercharger under the carb, requires >increasing size of carb. > > >Wayne Strasser >Chemical Engineer >EFI Patent Pending > >-----Original Message----- >From: TBK >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 9:23 PM >Subject: Re: Supercharged 3800 > > >The Eaton M-62 is ~$1700US new $1300 rebuilt. M-90 a little higher. Contact >www.eaton.com > >TK >-----Original Message----- >From: Peter Jaramaz >To: 'DIY_EFI' >Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 4:27 PM >Subject: Supercharged 3800 > > >>Hi all, >> >>Q regrading S/C 3800. >> >>In Aus thay're fitted in Holdens. Drove one on the weekend in a LWB luxo >barge Statesman and was extremely surprised by the grunt as well as the >linear power delivery. >> >>Now, wanted to force induct my own earlier 3800, questions I have is if I >mount the S/C between the engine and throttle body (with the MAP sensor on >the throttle body), can I get away with running a 1 bar/atmo MAP sensor as >the MAP would never see boost. >> >>My only concern is the MAP may be subject to too much vacuum under hi >rev/lo TPS. >> >>Would this cause a problem? >> >>Any comments suggestions? >> >>Anyone Stateside know the price of a factory S/C for a 3800 - a local >importer here has a new one but wants $1800. I can buy a brand new complete >engine from Holden for approx $5000, which makes the $1800 for a bare S/C >seem a little high :-( >> >> >> >> > > > > From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 06:07:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA19489 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:07:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from newmail.virgin.net (newmail.virgin.net [194.168.54.44]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA19485 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:07:51 -0400 Received: from virgin.net ([194.168.121.234]) by newmail.virgin.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 1-55555U125000L125000S0) with ESMTP id AAA23102 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:07:46 +0000 Message-ID: <35499A23.F37A7105@virgin.net> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:47:16 +0100 From: Tony Cooper X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Clarifications on last Programming 101 References: <01bd74aa$a4eb7a80$20198fd1@nacelp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce - Please excuse me if you already understand this, but the numbers shown below are bit fields within bytes. Sorry if I am typin the bleedin obvious on this one. TTFN Tony Bruce Plecan wrote: > Again please read all prior 101 text before trying to interupt this > as a complete thought. > > I'm going to give a few examples of what a set of malfunction > code flags look like and how they change in a given application. > > If we were to look a 747 bin file with a hex editor, we might see > > 050D 050E 050F > FD 39 F9 would be stock > FC 39 F9 would be no vss diagnostics (code 24) > FD 39 79 would be no knock (code 43) > FD 19 F9 would be no egr (code 32) > I hope this shines a tad more light on the issue. Also note > how unique the pattern seems against all the other table > stuff. > > Also, an address might better discribe 16 bytes, and an > address of say 0000+0001, rather than a location of say > 0000.. > > Cheers > Bruce We need a Cone Shaped Hat representative in > washington, DC by the year 2000. If I start > walking now I might make it in time.. -- Sent By Tony Cooper. email: tony.cooper@virgin.net Allow at least 10 working minutes for reply. ;) From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 06:10:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA19514 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:10:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: (from jsg@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA19505 for diy_efi; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:10:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 06:10:00 -0400 From: John S Gwynne Message-Id: <199805011010.GAA19505@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archive to each mailing list is available through the following sources: 1) WWW. http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 2) ftp. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 3) Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". Digest mode is available for each mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe from the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW site (for diy_efi and efi332): http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ now mirrored at http://tech.buffalostate.edu/efi Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 08:37:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20906 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:37:31 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20902 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:37:25 -0400 Received: from bernie (bernie@starbug.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.110]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00268 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 22:39:43 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980501223711.007949d0@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 22:37:11 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... In-Reply-To: <01bd7484$b724f6c0$71198fd1@nacelp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If you are serious about trying to make you Commodore more Aerodynamic, why don't you turn up to a round of the Australian AUSCAR series, where commodores make up more than half the feild, and take a quick look under one of these cars. >From my experience with these cars I can say that there is very few modifications made to the underside of the vehicle (suspension excepted). From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 08:40:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20920 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:40:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from dmzserv.kemet.com (dmzserv.kemet.com [206.74.114.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20916 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:40:26 -0400 Received: from smtpgw.kemet.com ([206.74.114.1]) by dmzserv.kemet.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.01) with SMTP id 410 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:35:14 -0400 Received: from Lotus Notes (PU Serial #1724) by smtpgw.kemet.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998May01.064051.1724.734461; Fri, 01 May 1998 08:42:13 -0400 From: MikeTurner@kemet.com (Mike Turner) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu (diy_efi) Message-ID: <1998May01.064051.1724.734461@smtpgw.kemet.com> X-Conversion-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Notes via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: KEMET Electronics Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 08:42:13 -0400 Subject: DYI Harness Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id IAA20917 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The local vehicular recycling facilities (PC for junkyards) don't really want to sell harnesses. Brain boxes and hubcaps OK but not harnesses. What type wire is good for an engine harness? Is THHN or TFFN OK? Both are oil resistant but how about temperature? What do the auto manufacturers use? From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 08:41:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20935 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:41:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from dmzserv.kemet.com (dmzserv.kemet.com [206.74.114.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20930 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:41:41 -0400 Received: from smtpgw.kemet.com ([206.74.114.1]) by dmzserv.kemet.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.01) with SMTP id 114 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:36:29 -0400 Received: from Lotus Notes (PU Serial #1724) by smtpgw.kemet.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998May01.064308.1724.734472; Fri, 01 May 1998 08:43:29 -0400 From: MikeTurner@kemet.com (Mike Turner) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu (diy_efi) Message-ID: <1998May01.064308.1724.734472@smtpgw.kemet.com> X-Conversion-ID: X-Mailer: Lotus Notes via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: KEMET Electronics Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 08:43:29 -0400 Subject: DYI Harness Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id IAA20932 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The local vehicular recycling centers (PC for junkyards) don't seem to want to sell wiring harnesses. Is THHN or TFFN wire OK? What do the auto manufacturers use? From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 08:47:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21050 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:47:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21044 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:47:48 -0400 Received: from bernie (bernie@starbug.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.110]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00304 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 22:50:15 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980501224744.007a0100@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 22:47:44 +1000 To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: METHANOL vs WATER INJECTION... In-Reply-To: <01bd74b9$0c71d380$20198fd1@nacelp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu might be a good time to ask whether methanol injection injection may have increased benefits over water injection. Methanol would seem to have similar intake charge cooling properties, and yet it is combustible too... wouldn't this acheive a better result? From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 08:48:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21087 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:48:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.enter.net (root@mail.enter.net [204.170.70.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21083 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:48:51 -0400 From: rbraun@mail.enter.net Received: from rbraun (m40atwn-3-30.enter.net [204.170.16.136]) by mail.enter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA00278 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:48:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805011248.IAA00278@mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 08:57:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: DFI: Urgent, Need help with a DFI harness Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3548AB94.2F34@ix.netcom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I sent it, if you did not get it correctly let me know. > > > DOH! That's his phone line. His FAX number is 732-775-0427. Sorry about > that. > > -Ed > > Randy Braun '77 C-10 pick-up, DFI-Tuned Port, 350 '82 Firebird, DFI, ZZ3 '91 GTA, Stock From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 09:46:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22176 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:46:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22172 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:46:44 -0400 Received: from 205.215.232.17 (surf17.cruzers.com [205.215.232.17]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA03301 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3549E061.5B69@cruzers.com> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 06:47:38 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diy_efi Subject: Re: Disassembly listings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The disassemblies I have posted on the web have been updated. The register contents are "known" in a few cases where they used to be "unknown". In a few cases, false "used" status is no longer flagged. A macros file has also been included with each disassembly. A fourth disassmbly has been added to the previous three. It is for the 1227148 ECM (3.8 V6 SFI NA & turbo) with a PROM from a NA FWD 3.8. Thanks to treprom.zip for the raw ECM ROM data. Here's the URL (again): http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/disasm.html unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; Ludis Langens return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + ludis@cruzers.com (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 09:52:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22248 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:52:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22243 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:52:41 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA11155; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:52:30 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAC00147 for ; Fri, 01 May 1998 09:51:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:51:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805011351.JAC00147@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980501094904.007b23d0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:49:04 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Water/Akly Inj Recipe In-Reply-To: <01bd74b9$0c71d380$20198fd1@nacelp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I had saved this message from the Buick Grand National list, from a gent named "Phil" who removed the detonation from his Turbo Buick 3.8/4.1L engine, via alky. He can run significantly more boost because of the below methods. I tried it on my supercharged Lincoln, however backed the equipment off the car because I'm having a performance problem even without the supercharger blowing any air (I think I have a weak injector, but the car has 80K hard miles on it, so its reasonable). Anyway, here is his recipe: "Cheap" Alky Injection Recipe; Intro. The system that I have came up with utilizes some used parts that I had laying around and a few new ones too. I don't guarantee as good results as I have seen, but on the other hand some of you might experience better. You may have to do some looking around junk yards, but when a guy is on a budget you do what you can do-:) Let me apologize for the lack of part numbers and such. I didn't plan on writing a recipe for this. I hope that some of you will benefit from it, although it may require a little investigative work. Here's the basic run down... Materials: 1) Electronic fuel pump ...I bought mine for $40 used. I found a Bosch (# 9580 810 021) unit off a Ford truck with EFI. It's used but seems to be working well. Puts out over 60psi at the injector. a Bosch rep told me that most of there pumps have stainless insides (which resist alky corrosion. This is the main "iffy" part to the recipe. You gotta find a good EFI pump. I would not suggest the little skinnies that come in our cars. I have not heard any thing _good_ about them and alky/water. You may want to periodically check the out put of the pump. It is possible that it can corrode and need replacement after time. ~$40 2) Relay ....just a simple 4 prong 30amp relay like we use to "hot wire" the fuel pump.~$3 3)Some kind of MAP switch. I used a switch that the digital dashed cars use to turn on the red and orange dash lights under boost. This switch is very adjustable via two screws on the back. When a certain boost is reached this switch completes a ground. I adjusted mine to 10psi so that I was sure the alky would be there before detonation. I used compressed air and my boost guage to tune it in to 10psi. It has been w/ in one psi of ten everytime. ~$10used 4)Nozzel (injector) and jets. I use NOS here, but it is entirely up to you. This is an area where your own line of reasoning comes to play. I used a NOS 90degree nitrous nozzel. I did this so that I could aim the injector INTO the air stream for better atomization. It's far enough from the TB that I don't think turbulence is a problem. Atomization is key, thats the reason for the high psi pump. NOS has straight on nozzels too if you disagree with my reasoning. You'll also need a nut to mount the nozzel. I think a metric fine thread nut at the hardware store is what I used.. sorry, not sure what size but thats a starting point. The nozzel won't thread all the way in but it only needs to be flush with the nut seat. Jets: By a few of them, for you will be tuning. Try anything between .025 and .035 flare type jets. I have mine dialed in pretty well with a .030 jet. It will be different for everyone I'm sure. If you are curious as to whether you're to rich with alky, just look for clouds of steam behind you-:) ~$20 5) 14 guage wire. several feet..~$5 6) Plumbing to fit the NOS nozzel. It will be different for everyone as to location of pump and nozzel.less than $15. 7) A Washer fluid tank that will fit in your engine compartment. Mine is out of an old chevy truck and rests where the charcol canister used to be. It is good to mount the pump lower than the tank so that it will keep its prime. A washer fluid tank is nice due to the strainer in the pick up tube.less than $5. Installation..Finally: Decide where you want to mount the nozzel. Somewhere in your up pipe from the IC or the turbo for you 85 and older guys. I would suggest a place in the bend of the up pipe so that the alky can atomize a bit more during the bend. Remove the pipe and drill a 3/16" hole. I used JB's weld to bond the metric nut to the outside of the tube. If you take your time it will look nice. If you have a 90* nozzel, mark the spray side for ease of aim later on. Next get your wiring figured out. I mounted my pump under the air filter..... NOTE: Do NOT let your pump touch any grounded metal. The plastic wheel well is a great place for mounting. If you must mount it on metal you will have to reverse the wiring i decribe later).... It was real close the alt. that way. I mounted ther presure switch on the pass side fender, behind the puke tank, under the little guard. There should already be holes for it to mount. Find a place to splice in the boost system for your switch. I placed the relay right next to it for ease of wiring and protection. The relay will be completing the ground for the pump. Wiring: 1)Wire from NEG. post of PUMP to terminal 30 2)wire from a GOOD GROUND to terminal 87 3)wire from MAP switch to 86 4)wire from battery or other (+) to terminal 85 5) wire from alternator BAT post to POS pump terminal. Wire routing is a thing of personal preferance. I mounted my one wire that goes to the pump from the relay under the radiator support. If you have to take things apart for installation, besure to reassemble frequently to check for clearence...This is very important-:) Now (24hrs later) the JB weld should be plenty hard to take stress from the nozzel and complimentary plumbing. Place the nozzel in the hole and thread it in until it is snug. Then back it off till it points in the desired direction, via the mark you put on it earlier. Like I said, mine points into the air stream. You should prolly use teflon tape to help seal it, since it won't be real tight. It doesn't have to be that tight though. Now you have the nozzel mounted, the up pipe on, the pump installed and wired...right . Next is plumbing the pump to the nozzel. First you need to place one of your jets in your nozzel. It only fits one way....You can't screw it up.... The fittings then hold the jet into the nozzel. Your on your own from here. I have a front mount which leaves me a lot of room for plumbing. Keep tube routing in mind while your mounting your pump and nozzel. You'll need to either order the parts you need from NOS (or another nitrous supplier) or do what I did, and find a local hydrolic specialist. The can generally make any kind of hose and fitting you need. It's prolly cheaper to go to NOS though. A worm drive clamp works great for holding the hose on to the pump. Keep in mind you'll be using high pressure. No vaccuum lines-:) That is about everything. If you have any specific questions let me know. I have had quite some fun with this setup. I run 9.5:1 and have experienced a 6psi increasse in boost with no knock. I have found that the thrasher chip did not work as well as a good conventional after market chip. I use a 50/50 rubbing alky and water mix. Its cheap and i think that is the best mixture. Thats my experience anyway. I hope that a good start anyway. It's really pretty simple. Good luck. Like I said let me know of any questions or clarification you may need.. Phil Verhaeghe lcgn@aol.com 4.1L '87 GN Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 09:52:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22245 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:52:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22235 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:52:30 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA11152; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:52:27 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAB00147 for ; Fri, 01 May 1998 09:51:10 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:51:10 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805011351.JAB00147@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980501094525.007ac340@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:45:25 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: DYI Harness In-Reply-To: <1998May01.064051.1724.734461@smtpgw.kemet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >The local vehicular recycling facilities (PC for junkyards) don't really want to sell harnesses. Brain boxes and hubcaps OK but not harnesses. What type wire is good for an engine harness? Is THHN or TFFN OK? Both are oil resistant but how about temperature? What do the auto manufacturers use? That kind of wire is fine, used both before depending on availability. The best choice is to find a junkyard that allows you to pull your own stuff... and grab everything. When I pulled the engine, power everything, transmission, door hinges, ECM, wiring harness (bumper to bumper, and labeled it), I bought the ENTIRE CAR and had it flatbedded to my garage... then, after I sawzalled the unibody up, they came back and picked it up. Was significantly cheaper than buying individual parts, and it only took me a week to strip the car down to the empty unibody. I took everything that was not welded. Even have a box of unsorted nuts, bolts, and strange clips. When you remove the harness, take a perminant marker and write a number on the connector, and log the number and its function on paper... this way you don't have to worry about masking tape or labels falling off when you snake the wires through the old/new vehicles. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 10:33:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23047 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:33:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23038 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:32:39 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-29.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.47]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id KAA18720 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:31:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: METHANOL vs WATER INJECTION... Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:32:55 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd750e$077768e0$2f198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Harding Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 9:29 AM Subject: METHANOL vs WATER INJECTION... >might be a good time to ask whether methanol injection injection may have increased benefits over water injection. Methanol would seem to have similar intake charge cooling properties, and yet it is combustible too... >wouldn't this acheive a better result? I tried that in the steady state humidifier rig, no real change. Also was barely noticeable, in the upon demand normally aspirated. In the turbo stuff, using water was good as gold. Then quickly got to where EGT, told us when to stop. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 11:29:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23684 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:29:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23680 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:29:15 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yVHnL-0001KaC; Fri, 1 May 98 11:32 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: METHANOL vs WATER INJECTION... To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:32:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980501224744.007a0100@mail.qonline.com.au> from "Matthew Harding" at May 1, 98 10:47:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > might be a good time to ask whether methanol injection injection may have > increased benefits over water injection. Methanol would seem to have > similar intake charge cooling properties, and yet it is combustible too... > > wouldn't this acheive a better result? > it will work but you will have to lan the mixuture out as you add the alcohol approx 1/2 the volume of alcohol that you add Clive From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 12:39:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24625 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:39:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lsi.lsil.com (lsi.lsil.com [147.145.40.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24621 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:39:02 -0400 Received: from mhbs.lsil.com ([147.145.29.36]) by lsi.lsil.com with ESMTP id JAA22514 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6 for ); Fri, 1 May 1998 09:38:56 -0700 Received: from [147.145.143.10] by mhbs.lsil.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:38:55 -0700 Received: from mm104.minn by mms10 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA17858; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:38:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:38:40 -0500 From: mdill@lsil.com (Mike Dillon) Message-Id: <199805011638.LAA17858@mms10> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Clarifications on last Programming 101 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey Tony, Let me expand on your answer a little so the binarily inpaired can understand :) FD (Hex) is 1111 1101 in binary. This means from what Bruce has discovered this bit ^ at address 050D controls the vss diagnostic. F9 (hex) = 1111 1001 and this bit ^ is the knock diagnostic ie 0111 1001 = 79 hex 39 (hex) = 0011 1001 this bit ^ is the egr diagnostic ie 0001 1001 = 19 hex My hat is off to Bruce (How in the heck did you find this ??) The question is does clearing these bit(s) disable these functions or does it just turn off the error reporting ?? Mike D. from what Bruce has found > From diy_efi-owner@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Fri May 1 06:22 CDT 1998 > From: Tony Cooper > > Bruce - Please excuse me if you already understand this, but the numbers > shown below are bit fields within bytes. > > Sorry if I am typin the bleedin obvious on this one. > TTFN > Tony > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > Again please read all prior 101 text before trying to interupt this > > as a complete thought. > > > > I'm going to give a few examples of what a set of malfunction > > code flags look like and how they change in a given application. > > > > If we were to look a 747 bin file with a hex editor, we might see > > > > 050D 050E 050F > > FD 39 F9 would be stock > > FC 39 F9 would be no vss diagnostics (code 24) > > FD 39 79 would be no knock (code 43) > > FD 19 F9 would be no egr (code 32) > > I hope this shines a tad more light on the issue. Also note > > how unique the pattern seems against all the other table > > stuff. > > > > Also, an address might better discribe 16 bytes, and an > > address of say 0000+0001, rather than a location of say > > 0000.. > > > > Cheers > > Bruce We need a Cone Shaped Hat representative in > > washington, DC by the year 2000. If I start > > walking now I might make it in time.. > > > > -- > Sent By Tony Cooper. > email: tony.cooper@virgin.net > Allow at least 10 working minutes for reply. ;) > > > > > > From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 13:03:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24914 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:03:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.16]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24910 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:03:45 -0400 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA22890 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:03:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nbw-nj9-14.ix.netcom.com(198.211.225.142) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022792; Fri May 1 12:03:15 1998 Message-ID: <354A00B5.68EA@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:04:53 -0400 From: Ed X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DFI: Urgent, Need help with a DFI harness References: <199805011248.IAA00278@mail.enter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Randy, Thanks for the fax. I just got back from my friend's shop (spent the night there). All I need to wire is the TPS and the ignition input. Would've been running last night, except the fuel rail didn't arrive till around 10-ish. Thanks again, Ed From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 13:31:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25416 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:31:46 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from dialup0.bushnell.net (root@dialup0.bushnell.net [207.177.24.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25412 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:31:41 -0400 Received: from bushnell.net.bushnell.net (ttyR5 [207.177.24.145]) by dialup0.bushnell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA15687 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:31:38 -0500 Message-ID: <004a01bd7527$5a2fd360$9118b1cf@bushnell.net.bushnell.net> From: "Dave Balfour" To: Subject: Re: METHANOL vs WATER INJECTION... Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:34:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu The term is the "latent heat of evaporation" I believe. The meth should be injected at the throttle body for maximum charge. The cooling effect is a way of packing more molecules of O2 in the cylinders. BTW that was an excellent report Fredrick dave balfour -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 10:13 AM Subject: Re: METHANOL vs WATER INJECTION... | |-----Original Message----- |From: Matthew Harding |Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 9:29 AM |Subject: METHANOL vs WATER INJECTION... | | |>might be a good time to ask whether methanol injection injection may have |increased benefits over water injection. Methanol would seem to have |similar intake charge cooling properties, and yet it is combustible too... |>wouldn't this acheive a better result? | | |I tried that in the steady state humidifier rig, no real change. |Also was barely noticeable, in the upon demand normally |aspirated. | In the turbo stuff, using water was good as gold. Then |quickly got to where EGT, told us when to stop. |Cheers |Bruce | From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 15:22:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26828 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:22:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lsi.lsil.com (lsi.lsil.com [147.145.40.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26823 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:22:51 -0400 Received: from mhbs.lsil.com ([147.145.29.36]) by lsi.lsil.com with ESMTP id MAA07353 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6 for ); Fri, 1 May 1998 12:22:33 -0700 Received: from [147.145.143.10] by mhbs.lsil.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:22:31 -0700 Received: from mm104.minn by mms10 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA24092; Fri, 1 May 1998 14:22:16 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:22:16 -0500 From: mdill@lsil.com (Mike Dillon) Message-Id: <199805011922.OAA24092@mms10> To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Fw: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am not sure that you want or would be able to get water into the cylinder "wet" in liquid form. Then once there how are you going to keep it from vaporizing prior to TDC and just incressing the negative work needed to compress it ? Maybe with a direct injection set up like a diesel fuel injection set to inject sometime just before TDC It might yeild some return, It might just go though a lot of water also) Lets see bump the comp. ratio for better efficincy add some water-alcohol (Need to alcohol so the water won't freeze in winter) so it does not ping, then just before TDC inject more water and how will this effect the flame front ? It sounds like a good research project enayone want to fund me ? Mike D. > From diy_efi-owner@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Thu Apr 30 23:09 CDT 1998 > Return-Path: > From: Strasser > > I too am considering this as a mileage enhancement. I would have to discuss > the potential gains for increasing the water input rate above that which is > required for stopping detonation. Since the engine utilizes such a small > fraction of usable mechanical energy from the combustion of fuel, alot > escapes the exhaust (among other places...) By injecting more water, the > normally-wasted heat energy is utilized to induce a phase change in the > water from liquid to vapor, which obviously raises combustion chamber > pressures since water (at STP) expands by a factor of ~ 1400 when > evaporated. Obviously, there is some optimum point here, since the > existence of water molecules in the chamber impedes radical electron > transfer processes and drops temperatures (hence the impact on detonation). > not sure where that optimum is....comments from all? > > > Wayne Strasser > Chemical Engineer > EFI Patent Pending > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 4:15 PM > Subject: Re: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... > > > From: Danny Barrett > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: RE: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... > > > >I hope you didn't bite while you were writing this... Your tongue was > >obviously firmly planted in your cheek. As for what it has to do with > >injection... Nothing, except for the original email message (this is about > a > >fifth or sixth generation reply, and the stuff about EFI have gradually > been removed as > > >build a simple "home made" water injection system, and how much water > should > >I use? Can I simply splice another injector into an injector control line > >(in parallel), and use another fuel pump to pressurise the water? > > > >Danny Barrett. > > > > > I beleive Sir Harry Ricard used 30-50% of fuel volume as a norm. > (this figure may have been primarily for turbo/supercharged appl). > Lots of folks have used a windshield washer tank/motor as a > dispenser (use a check valve so low manifold vacuum doesn't > draw it out). Also anything more than just enough to get rid of the > detonation is a waste of fluid. No real gains past that. Might > be more info in archives, about this. ie injector types methods. > Cheers > Bruce > > > > From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 15:37:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27135 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:37:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from smtp3.ny.us.ibm.com (smtp3.ny.us.ibm.com [198.133.22.42]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27131 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:37:53 -0400 Received: from relay1.server.ibm.com (relay1.server.ibm.com [9.14.2.98]) by smtp3.ny.us.ibm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA41788 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:29:37 -0400 Received: from US.IBM.COM (d03lms05.boulder.ibm.com [9.99.80.15]) by relay1.server.ibm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA102054 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:35:31 -0400 Received: by US.IBM.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 2.1.0.0) with snapi via D03AU045 id 5030050010518888; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:38:08 -0400 From: Kevin Vannorsdel To: Subject: Adaptor from GM TBI to AN line Message-ID: <5030050010518888000002L582*@MHS> Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 15:38:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id PAA27132 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Rumor has it that one can buy an adaptor that will screw into the strange o-ring metric fuel fitting on a GM TBI (and others) and allow you to hook a standard AN fitting on the other end. I haven't been able to find a WWW page for Earls yet to check with them for a part number... anyone have a URL for them or any other info? Thanks!! ________________________________________________ Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv@us.ibm.com From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 16:01:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27433 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:01:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from smtp4.ny.us.ibm.COM (smtp4.ny.us.ibm.com [198.133.22.43]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27428 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:01:36 -0400 Received: from relay1.server.ibm.com (relay1.server.ibm.com [9.14.2.98]) by smtp4.ny.us.ibm.COM (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA64178 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:54:17 -0400 Received: from US.IBM.COM (d03lms05.boulder.ibm.com [9.99.80.15]) by relay1.server.ibm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06928 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:59:12 -0400 Received: by US.IBM.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 2.1.0.0) with snapi via D03AU045 id 5030050010521518; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:01:50 -0400 From: Kevin Vannorsdel To: Subject: DISREGARD PREVIOUS REQUEST Adaptor from GM TBI to AN line Message-ID: <5030050010521518000002L582*@MHS> Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:01:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id QAA27430 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well, I used good old fashioned 1-800-555-1212 to get the number for Earls... 1-800-421-2712 They have adaptors for 14,16 and 18mm thread diameters Earls P/N 14 991954 16 991955 18 991956 Note sure which ones I need yet but that shouldn't be too difficult. ________________________________________________ Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv@us.ibm.com ---------------------- Forwarded by Kevin Vannorsdel/San Jose/IBM on 05/01/98 12:58 PM --------------------------- Kevin Vannorsdel 05/01/98 12:37 PM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu@ internet cc: From: Kevin Vannorsdel/San Jose/IBM @ IBMUS Subject: Adaptor from GM TBI to AN line Rumor has it that one can buy an adaptor that will screw into the strange o-ring metric fuel fitting on a GM TBI (and others) and allow you to hook a standard AN fitting on the other end. I haven't been able to find a WWW page for Earls yet to check with them for a part number... anyone have a URL for them or any other info? Thanks!! ________________________________________________ Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv@us.ibm.com From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 18:22:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28899 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:22:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28895 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:22:12 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-16.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.34]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id SAA00501 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Clarifications on last Programming 101+ Dragging it out Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:22:31 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd754f$a22a76c0$22198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Clarifications on last Programming 101 > > Let me expand on your answer a little so the binarily inpaired can > understand :) > FD (Hex) is 1111 1101 in binary. This means from what Bruce has discovered I DID NOT DISCOVER THIS, a list member shared it with me, this is far beyond my mental abilities. It also is mentioned in the "Net", but ya gotta dig for it. BTW, I've mentioned where in numerous postings. So while alot of what I write is obvious, ya gotta look real close, for the finer points. The bits are mentioned elsewhere, and the member explained the correlation to the error code. Then I wrote to others to "get it" again. This was a matter of digging for months, and writting to others (many). And finding others to talk about it. THIS IS WHY I"M DRAGGING IT OUT, cause it takes a ton, of time to gather all the snippets, and follow them around. I'm also following leads on future projects. This list has many gifted folks, I just got time to type. > this bit ^ at address 050D controls the vss diagnostic. > F9 (hex) = 1111 1001 and > this bit ^ is the knock diagnostic ie 0111 1001 = 79 hex > 39 (hex) = 0011 1001 > this bit ^ is the egr diagnostic ie 0001 1001 = 19 hex > > My hat is off to Bruce (How in the heck did you find this ??) > >The question is does clearing these bit(s) disable these functions or does it just turn off the error reporting ?? > >Mike D. > I've spent a bunch of time being a pest, and writting to folks trying to get the pieces to the puzzle. The info in the tuning stuff I wrote was basically "from my experiences". Alot (most) this ecm stuff is from others, hence some errors in my interuption of things.... Turning the malfunction flags off stops an error code from being stored, and when the diagnostic test is run by the ecm and it fails, it doesn't got into the limp home mode. Some tests aren't run, but some others are (see archives for the particulars). It doesn't turn off the operation of say a egr valve solenoid apply signal, that is another "switch". Another test of say EST still does the momentary addition of advance to the timing but when the EST reports the knock is present, it's says OK, or if not present OK, and goes back to other ecm functions.. Hope this helps to clarify the clarification. Cheers Bruce Again I have no formal electronics training other than at the vocational level, I'm no EE or Software Pro. I'm just sharing what I've found and OTHERS have told me. I've tried to verify when possible, all that I've stated. From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 18:37:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29053 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:37:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29049 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:37:23 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-16.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.34]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id SAA05859 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:36:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: ADAPTERS from GM TBI to AN line Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:37:41 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7551$c0376ae0$22198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Kevin Vannorsdel To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 4:47 PM Subject: DISREGARD PREVIOUS REQUEST Adaptor from GM TBI to AN line >Well, I used good old fashioned 1-800-555-1212 to get the number for Earls... > >1-800-421-2712 > >They have adaptors for 14,16 and 18mm thread diameters > >Earls P/N > >14 991954 >16 991955 >18 991956 > > Also, be advised on some of these Adapters that you remove the hex steel adapter that threads into the housing that couples the line with the O-Ring fitting. So you have an adapter that replaces the oem fitting, and then the AN fastens to that. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 18:43:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29104 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:43:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from hpnfssvr.mdhc.mdc.com (hpnfssvr.PHX.AZ.BOEING.COM [130.38.244.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29099 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:43:05 -0400 Received: from hprs9.mdhc.mdc.com (tc75918@hprs9.mdhc.mdc.com [130.38.233.24]) by hpnfssvr.mdhc.mdc.com with ESMTP (8.7.6/8.7.3) id PAA28625 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:43:26 -0700 (MST) Received: (from tc75918@localhost) by hprs9.mdhc.mdc.com (8.7.6/8.7.1) id PAA22125 for diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:43:26 -0700 (MST) From: d houlton x0710 Message-Id: <199805012243.PAA22125@hprs9.mdhc.mdc.com> Subject: Re: Supercharged 3800 To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 15:43:26 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <01bd74bf$4466b840$20198fd1@nacelp> from "Bruce Plecan" at May 1, 98 01:09:07 am Organization: McDonnell Douglas Helicopter X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Plecan wrote: > > From: Peter Jaramaz > To: 'diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 12:52 AM > Subject: RE: Supercharged 3800 > > > All blowers need some lubrication. If the TB is upstream of the > blower than the engine vacuum is going to try and draw this lube > into the intake charge when closing the butterflies at high rpm. > If the butterflies are below the blower it sees no vacuum during > this period of overrun. Conversely, if the TB is downstream of the blower, then when going from full throttle and boost to suddenly closing the throttles creates a reverse pressure pulse that may damage the blower. i.e. The blower's still pumping air, but it has nowhere to go because the butterfiles are closed. It's a good idea to add a blow-off valve that routes the extra air back to the intake of the blower to prevent damage until it has a chance to wind down. Of course, if you don't have a MAF sensor upstream of the blow-off valve, you could just vent the extra to atmosphere as well without screwing up the A/F ratio. --Dan From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 19:27:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29708 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:27:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29702 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:27:00 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp47.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.177]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA26281 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:27:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <354A5835.530D4985@mwt.net> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 18:18:14 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Clarifications on last Programming 101+ Dragging it out X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <01bd754f$a22a76c0$22198fd1@nacelp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu You are doing a great job explaining just keep pushing on Bruce. Steve Bruce Plecan wrote: > Subject: Re: Clarifications on last Programming 101 > > > > Let me expand on your answer a little so the binarily inpaired can > > understand :) > > FD (Hex) is 1111 1101 in binary. This means from what Bruce has > discovered > > I DID NOT DISCOVER THIS, a list member shared it with me, this > is far beyond my mental abilities. > > It also is mentioned in the "Net", but ya gotta dig for it. BTW, I've > > mentioned where in numerous postings. So while alot of what > I write is obvious, ya gotta look real close, for the finer points. > The bits are mentioned elsewhere, and the member explained > the correlation to the error code. Then I wrote to others to "get it" > > again. This was a matter of digging for months, and writting to > others (many). And finding others to talk about it. > > THIS IS WHY I"M DRAGGING IT OUT, cause it takes a ton, > of time to gather all the snippets, and follow them around. > I'm also following leads on future projects. This list has > many gifted folks, I just got time to type. > > > this bit ^ at address 050D controls the vss diagnostic. > > F9 (hex) = 1111 1001 and > > this bit ^ is the knock diagnostic ie 0111 1001 = 79 hex > > 39 (hex) = 0011 1001 > > this bit ^ is the egr diagnostic ie 0001 1001 = 19 hex > > > > My hat is off to Bruce (How in the heck did you find this ??) > > > >The question is does clearing these bit(s) disable these > functions or does it just turn off the error reporting ?? > > > >Mike D. > > > I've spent a bunch of time being a pest, and writting to folks > trying to get the pieces to the puzzle. The info in the tuning > stuff I wrote was basically "from my experiences". Alot (most) > this ecm stuff is from others, hence some errors in my > interuption of things.... > > Turning the malfunction flags off stops an error code from > being stored, and when the diagnostic test is run by the > ecm and it fails, it doesn't got into the limp home mode. > > Some tests aren't run, but some others are (see archives > for the particulars). > It doesn't turn off the operation of say a egr valve solenoid > apply signal, that is another "switch". > Another test of say EST still does the momentary addition > of advance to the timing but when the EST reports the knock is > present, it's > says OK, or if not present OK, and goes back to > other ecm functions.. > Hope this helps to clarify the clarification. > Cheers > Bruce Again I have no formal electronics training other than > at the vocational level, I'm no EE or Software Pro. I'm > just sharing what I've found and OTHERS have told me. > I've tried to verify when possible, all that I've stated. From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 19:44:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29958 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:44:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from webserver (brpt01-sh5-port36.snet.net [204.60.24.36]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29954 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:44:32 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAB00242 for ; Fri, 01 May 1998 19:43:19 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 19:43:19 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805012343.TAB00242@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980501194341.007a56e0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 19:43:41 -0700 To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Supercharged 3800 In-Reply-To: <199805012243.PAA22125@hprs9.mdhc.mdc.com> References: <01bd74bf$4466b840$20198fd1@nacelp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Conversely, if the TB is downstream of the blower, then when going from >full throttle and boost to suddenly closing the throttles creates a >reverse pressure pulse that may damage the blower. i.e. The blower's That's where HKS's blow-off valve offers some protection (for example). Its not uncommon for very high performance turbo cars to have both a turbo-bypass (wastegate) as well as the wastegate for the intake side of things... the same theory applies to supercharging. Like you said, air has to go somewhere. >closed. It's a good idea to add a blow-off valve that routes the extra >air back to the intake of the blower to prevent damage until it has a Maybe I should have read your entire message before replying :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 19:57:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA30119 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:57:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from snowcrest.net (mtshasta.snowcrest.net [207.201.33.195]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA30114 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:57:36 -0400 Received: from ws2436 (ppp93.snowcrest.net [207.201.18.109]) by snowcrest.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00251 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805012357.QAA00251@snowcrest.net> From: "Derek Jewett" To: Subject: Re: DIY'ers EPROM Burner Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:58:44 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey Steve, Let me know what software you're going to lay out the PCB with..? I have been working on one using PCTrace for weeks now with no luck! I made a test prototype on vero board, but I can't get a good layout... Could you send me a copy of your layout when you finish? For such a simple design it sure is a bitch to layout, but then again I am way ameture when it comes to layouts! Thanks! ---------- > From: Steven Ciciora > To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: re: DIY'ers EPROM Burner > Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 11:38 AM > > I plan on laying out a PCB and putting together a kit for the below. > I'm going to offer it at cost, and am trying to get it as cheap as > possible. So if your construction skills are marginal or are not as > experienced as others, if you wait a few weeks, I should be announcing > more details. Depending on a lot of things (such as ZIF sockets, power > supply, etc) I'm hoping for the cost to be under $30. Now if only > someone could find a bunch of $15 eprom erasers... > > Steven Ciciora > > P.S. I already have an eprom programmer for my self; my only motivation > is to contribute what I can to the Loyal Order of the Cone Shaped Hat. > > ------------------------------ > > From: "Derek Jewett" > Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:23:08 -0700 > Subject: DIY'ers EPROM Burner > > Ok the 2732 update has been added to the DIY'ers EPROM burner. Please > note > that the 2732 hack has not been tested as of yet, but the unit works > fine > for burning 27128/256/512,etc... It is a hobbyists grade plan so the > plans > are a little akward, if you have trouble reading the hand drawn > schematics > let me know I have a well laid out schemaic I can save as a metafile and > send you a copy. This project was originaly intended for burning video > game > cartriges and turned into a more "generic" burner I thought would be > usefull for any DIY'er wanting to read/burn his own chips for fun. As > you > will see the design is incredibly simple, and flexible, even for cone > shaped hat wearers!. Enjoy! > > > The specific URL for the EPROMr FAQ page is > , however most of you will > want to go to and download > the > new version of the software archive (approx. 555K). This zip file also > contains the FAQ document. > > > Derek > PS Soon to be added a DIY'ers plan for making your own cone shaped > hat!!!!! > > ------------------------------ From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 20:00:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA30178 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 20:00:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca (mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA30173 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 20:00:12 -0400 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (koala.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.60]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2] (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA16436 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 17:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from koala by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id QAA17992; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:59:34 -0700 Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:59:34 -0700 (PDT) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@koala To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Adaptor from GM TBI to AN line In-Reply-To: <5030050010518888000002L582*@MHS> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Don't know about that but the other way is possible. That is you can have an AN line and get an adapter that will alow the use of a GM style fuel filter. hth jw On Fri, 1 May 1998, Kevin Vannorsdel wrote: > > > Rumor has it that one can buy an adaptor that will screw into the strange > o-ring metric fuel fitting on a GM TBI (and others) and allow you to hook a > standard AN fitting on the other end. > > I haven't been able to find a WWW page for Earls yet to check with them for a > part number... anyone have a URL for them or any other info? > > Thanks!! > > > > ________________________________________________ > Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development > 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv@us.ibm.com > From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 21:28:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA31269 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:28:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pm04sm.pmm.mci.net (pm04sm.pmm.mci.net [208.159.126.153]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA31260 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:28:17 -0400 Received: from default (usr36-dialup41.mix2.Atlanta.mci.net) by PM04SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27036) with SMTP id <0ESB000KL2RA49@PM04SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for DIY_EFI@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 2 May 1998 01:28:30 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 21:28:09 -0700 From: Strasser Subject: Fw: Fw: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... To: DIY Message-id: <00b601bd7583$0d5b6160$e93b37a6@default> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mike: Yes, I agree ...research project Timing water phase change requires work. We all know that the rate of evaporation of a liquid dropplet suspended in a gas phase is a function of the following variables: local turbulence, local temperature gradients, local pressure surfaces, and dropplet size. Vaporization is driven by fugacities of the gas phase versus the liquid phase. Experimentation would have to be done with both dropplet size and injection temperature. Wayne Strasser Chemical Engineer EFI Patent Pending -----Original Message----- From: Mike Dillon To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Fw: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... I am not sure that you want or would be able to get water into the cylinder "wet" in liquid form. Then once there how are you going to keep it from vaporizing prior to TDC and just incressing the negative work needed to compress it ? Maybe with a direct injection set up like a diesel fuel injection set to inject sometime just before TDC It might yeild some return, It might just go though a lot of water also) Lets see bump the comp. ratio for better efficincy add some water-alcohol (Need to alcohol so the water won't freeze in winter) so it does not ping, then just before TDC inject more water and how will this effect the flame front ? It sounds like a good research project enayone want to fund me ? Mike D. > From diy_efi-owner@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Thu Apr 30 23:09 CDT 1998 > Return-Path: > From: Strasser > > I too am considering this as a mileage enhancement. I would have to discuss > the potential gains for increasing the water input rate above that which is > required for stopping detonation. Since the engine utilizes such a small > fraction of usable mechanical energy from the combustion of fuel, alot > escapes the exhaust (among other places...) By injecting more water, the > normally-wasted heat energy is utilized to induce a phase change in the > water from liquid to vapor, which obviously raises combustion chamber > pressures since water (at STP) expands by a factor of ~ 1400 when > evaporated. Obviously, there is some optimum point here, since the > existence of water molecules in the chamber impedes radical electron > transfer processes and drops temperatures (hence the impact on detonation). > not sure where that optimum is....comments from all? > > > Wayne Strasser > Chemical Engineer > EFI Patent Pending > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Plecan > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 4:15 PM > Subject: Re: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... > > > From: Danny Barrett > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: RE: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... > > > >I hope you didn't bite while you were writing this... Your tongue was > >obviously firmly planted in your cheek. As for what it has to do with > >injection... Nothing, except for the original email message (this is about > a > >fifth or sixth generation reply, and the stuff about EFI have gradually > been removed as > > >build a simple "home made" water injection system, and how much water > should > >I use? Can I simply splice another injector into an injector control line > >(in parallel), and use another fuel pump to pressurise the water? > > > >Danny Barrett. > > > > > I beleive Sir Harry Ricard used 30-50% of fuel volume as a norm. > (this figure may have been primarily for turbo/supercharged appl). > Lots of folks have used a windshield washer tank/motor as a > dispenser (use a check valve so low manifold vacuum doesn't > draw it out). Also anything more than just enough to get rid of the > detonation is a waste of fluid. No real gains past that. Might > be more info in archives, about this. ie injector types methods. > Cheers > Bruce > > > > From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 21:28:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA31274 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:28:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pm04sm.pmm.mci.net (pm04sm.pmm.mci.net [208.159.126.153]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA31255 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:28:15 -0400 Received: from default (usr36-dialup41.mix2.Atlanta.mci.net) by PM04SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27036) with SMTP id <0ESB000KL2RA49@PM04SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for DIY_EFI@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 2 May 1998 01:28:26 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 21:11:13 -0700 From: Strasser Subject: Fw: Supercharged 3800 To: DIY Message-id: <00b401bd7583$09dbb080$e93b37a6@default> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_DFYfJRZF9xp/dzDH6lffHg)" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_DFYfJRZF9xp/dzDH6lffHg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Peter: It does indeed make a difference wether it is upstream or downstream...all of which depends on where the sonic bottleneck is. If the TB is the largest pressure loss (area of highest characteristic Reynolds number, converting potential energy to kinetic rotational energy), then you want an upstream "push" instead of a downstream"pull". This, again, assumes you do not want to change your TB size. If you would go with a larger TB, you can get massive gains both ways. If not, like I said, it would be better upstream. For any given restriction, raising upstream pressure continues to increase mass flow across said restriction with no asymptote. On the other hand, lowering downstream pressure continues to increase mass flow UNTIL the flow is sonic or "choked". After the flow is choked, you can hook up an 5000 HP industrial vacuum blower on the downstream, and nothing more will happen. Again, I stress that this is assuming you dont change area of said orifice (TB). All the above also depends on where you are in the load/speed range. For example, if you are at low RPM but high TPS, then your intake charge produces little mean velocity across the TB. An S/C downstream WOULD be beneficial BECAUSE the flow across the TB is nowhere near sonic. But...as you increase RPM and the speed across the TB increases, your blower would have less and less impact. I tried to cram alot in this note...sorry if it all kinda runs together. Thanks for the chat. Wayne Strasser Chemical Engineer EFI Patent Pending -----Original Message----- From: Peter Jaramaz To: 'diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 10:15 PM Subject: RE: Supercharged 3800 Thanks for the reply, What would be the difference if the SC is mounted downstream (i.e after) compared to upstream (i.e before) the throttle body - to me it seems almost the same i.e interms of throttle body restriction, 10 psi vaccum after the TB vs 10 psi of pressure before the TB would result in the same flow across the TB. For me, mounting the SC after the TB would make for a cleaner install. BTW to all those interested, I can get the Eaton as fitted to the S/C 3800 for AUS$950 across the local parts counter. Peter ---------- From: Strasser Sent: Friday, May 01, 1998 4:14 PM To: DIY Subject: Fw: Supercharged 3800 If you mount your S/C downstream of your TB, it seems you will see little top end gain unless you increase your TB size. Once the pressure drop across your TB reaches a maximum (in fluid dynamics terms, this is the point of "choking" -- sonic flow of a gas), it can "flow" no more...no matter what is pulling on the other side. For example, in carbureted applications, the installation of a roots type supercharger under the carb, requires increasing size of carb. Wayne Strasser Chemical Engineer EFI Patent Pending -----Original Message----- From: TBK To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Supercharged 3800 The Eaton M-62 is ~$1700US new $1300 rebuilt. M-90 a little higher. Contact www.eaton.com TK -----Original Message----- From: Peter Jaramaz To: 'DIY_EFI' Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 4:27 PM Subject: Supercharged 3800 >Hi all, > >Q regrading S/C 3800. > >In Aus thay're fitted in Holdens. Drove one on the weekend in a LWB luxo barge Statesman and was extremely surprised by the grunt as well as the linear power delivery. > >Now, wanted to force induct my own earlier 3800, questions I have is if I mount the S/C between the engine and throttle body (with the MAP sensor on the throttle body), can I get away with running a 1 bar/atmo MAP sensor as the MAP would never see boost. > >My only concern is the MAP may be subject to too much vacuum under hi rev/lo TPS. > >Would this cause a problem? > >Any comments suggestions? > >Anyone Stateside know the price of a factory S/C for a 3800 - a local importer here has a new one but wants $1800. I can buy a brand new complete engine from Holden for approx $5000, which makes the $1800 for a bare S/C seem a little high :-( > > > > --Boundary_(ID_DFYfJRZF9xp/dzDH6lffHg) Content-type: APPLICATION/OCTET-STREAM; name=WINMAIL.DAT Content-disposition: ATTACHMENT; filename=WINMAIL.DAT Content-transfer-encoding: uuencode begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AD$`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 149),S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 149),S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 149),S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!%1DDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M``@0`0```&4```!42$%.2U-& M3U)42$5215!,62Q72$%45T]53$1"151(141)1D9%4D5.0T5)1E1(15-#25-- M3U5.5$5$1$]73E-44D5!32A)14%&5$52*4-/35!!4D5$5$]54%-44D5!32A) M14)%``````(!"1 !````IP<``*,'``#,#0``3%I&=1XN\%'_``H!#P(5`J0# MY 7K`H,`4!,#5 (`8V@*P'-E=.XR!@`&PP*#,@/&!Q,"@[HS$PU]"H (SPG9 M.Q7_>#(U-0* "H$-L0M@;O!G,3 S%" +"A+R# &28P! 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AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... To: DIY Message-id: <00b501bd7583$0c473240$e93b37a6@default> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce: Awesome info. Thanks. What % of the intake charge have you "scrubbed" with water? What kinda humidy (absolute) levels did you reach? Also, what kinda setup did you have that could support/utilize 60 psi boost? Wayne Strasser Chemical Engineer EFI Patent Pending -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 10:16 PM Subject: Re: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... From: Strasser To: DIY Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 11:58 PM Subject: Fw: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... I too am considering this as a mileage enhancement. I would have to discuss the potential gains for increasing the water input rate above that which is required for stopping detonation. I beleive Sir Harry Ricard used 30-50% of fuel volume as a norm. (this figure may have been primarily for turbo/supercharged appl). Lots of folks have used a windshield washer tank/motor as a dispenser (use a check valve so low manifold vacuum doesn't draw it out). Also anything more than just enough to get rid of the detonation is a waste of fluid. No real gains past that. Might be more info in archives, about this. ie injector types methods. Cheers Bruce Sir Harry Ricardo has covered it in more detail than I mentioned his book "the High Speed Internal Combustion Engine", last revision 1965, is the best source of this, that I know of. I've seen no gain in MPG, and slight gains in HP in naturally aspirated engines. Now when ya talk turbos, I've had intakes hot enough to cook paint off of (60 PSI, of boost), and it makes a HUGE Increase in HP, when ya have the water right. And the 30-50% figures hold true for diesel, and gas in my experiences. I've also tried a humidifier set up where a percentage of the intake charge air was drawn from above a water trap type device. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Fri May 1 23:11:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA32365 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 23:11:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA32361 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 23:11:09 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-42.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.60]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id XAA25050 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 23:10:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 23:11:28 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7577$ff81da20$3c198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Strasser To: DIY Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 10:43 PM Subject: Fw: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... Bruce: Awesome info. Thanks. What % of the intake charge have you "scrubbed" with water? Quessing I'd say probably over 10% at idle, and 5-10 at light cruise. What kinda humidy (absolute) levels did you reach? I wouldn't be able to venture a guess. Also, what kinda setup did you have that could support/utilize 60 psi boost? 436 CID Pro Stock Pulling Tractor. Diesel Bosch positive displacement Direct Cylinder Injection (1300ish PSI) water injection at 200 PSI. Fuel Consumption in the range of 2.5- 3 gals per 15 sec, and 1 gal of water. EGT 1520s. Released from a standstill, Slipped the clutch at 6,000 rpm, and 60 PSI 5 disc clutch. Single stage turbo. Uses a V-8 engine starter motor to spin the water pump for water injection. Other details classified (HEHE). Wayne Strasser Chemical Engineer EFI Patent Pending Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 00:51:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA00556 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 00:51:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from rgate.ricochet.net (rgate.ricochet.net [204.179.143.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00552 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 00:51:39 -0400 Received: from mg-20425422-105.ricochet.net (mg-20425422-105.ricochet.net [204.254.22.105]) by rgate.ricochet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA29865 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 23:47:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mg-20425422-105.ricochet.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7564.BAD766A0@mg-20425422-105.ricochet.net>; Sat, 2 May 1998 00:53:32 -0400 Message-ID: <01BD7564.BAD766A0@mg-20425422-105.ricochet.net> From: Chris Conlon To: DIY Subject: RE: Fw: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 00:47:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi yall, it's good to be back. Actually I really wanted to ask if anyone had any info about injecting hydrogen peroxide, downstream of a turbo or SC. I'd like to think with the right strength (30%?) you could get some of the water-injection intercooling effect, but also some extra O2 from the H2O2 breaking down. Hopefully it would all break down before hitting the fuel, if not that'd probably be "bad", so it seems like it's best suited to a low-efficiency SC and would only be turned on above some temperature. (Don't worry, I wouldn't do this any more than I'd do nitromethane injection, I just wondered what people had to say about it.) But while I'm here I can't resist this tidbit: Wayne Strasser wrote: > By injecting more water, the > normally-wasted heat energy is utilized to induce a phase change in the > water from liquid to vapor, which obviously raises combustion chamber > pressures since water (at STP) expands by a factor of ~ 1400 when > evaporated. Obviously, there is some optimum point here, since the > existence of water molecules in the chamber impedes radical electron > transfer processes and drops temperatures (hence the impact on > detonation). > not sure where that optimum is....comments from all? The problems are the high heat capacity of water and the high latent heat of vaporization. You only get some number of kJ from burning your cylinderfull of gas+air, and the water takes a great amount of that heat to heat up and evaporate. Yes, it expands tremendously when it does evaporate, and that's the only way you might come out ahead, because otherwise that heat of evaporation will kill you. It might help to have the water almost at boiling when you inject it, but even so, compare water to some other hypothetical fluid with a very low latent heat of vaporization. This other fluid will use up much less energy evaporating, leaving much more to heat & pressurize the just-evaporated gas. (As an aside, does anyone have the actual figures for latent heat of v. for water, the the heat capacity of air? I think the former was something like 500cal/g but I'm really not sure. I'd love to make some actual calculations of some of this stuff.) OTOH it's exactly this high latent heat of v. that makes water injection so great for intercooling. Probably the optimum is somewhere near the point at which the water is heated almost to evaporation just before entering the cylinder. You get maximum usable intercooling (without diluting your charge with a tremendous volume of water vapor), but during combustion the water *does* vaporize, giving you the phase transition, but for a minimum of required heat. Now if someone can manage the perfect droplet size profile to achieve this... (The above theoretical b.s. aside, yeah, it's a research project.) Chris C. p.s. got a cone shaped hat on order just in case I flubbed this one. From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 03:50:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA01774 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:50:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA01769 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:50:49 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA20002 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 17:50:46 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 17:50:46 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805020750.RAA20002@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Do these cars include the early models (ie. the VB/VC/VH/VK)??? >If you are serious about trying to make you Commodore more Aerodynamic, why >don't you turn up to a round of the Australian AUSCAR series, where >commodores make up more than half the feild, and take a quick look under >one of these cars. > >>From my experience with these cars I can say that there is very few >modifications made to the underside of the vehicle (suspension excepted). > > > From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 03:58:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA01845 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:58:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA01841 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:58:41 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA20721 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 17:58:40 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 17:58:40 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805020758.RAA20721@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Water/Akly Inj Recipe X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To "look" for a dud injector, try getting a piece of PVC or poly' pipe, and pointing the end at each injector, respectively. You should hear the ticking noise if it is in good order. if you hear more of a thudding noise, the injector is either no good, or it is blocked... >I had saved this message from the Buick Grand National list, from a gent >named "Phil" who removed the detonation from his Turbo Buick 3.8/4.1L >engine, via alky. He can run significantly more boost because of the below >methods. > >I tried it on my supercharged Lincoln, however backed the equipment off the >car because I'm having a performance problem even without the supercharger >blowing any air (I think I have a weak injector, but the car has 80K hard >miles on it, so its reasonable). Anyway, here is his recipe: From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 04:16:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA02072 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 04:16:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA02067 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 04:16:07 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA22269 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 18:16:05 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:16:05 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805020816.SAA22269@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu G'day there, when I consider the things I've been taught in my physical chemistry calsses (before college, and during my Engineering degree that I am currently doing), the water should (I won't say will - I could be wrong) stay in the liquid phase until after TDC. Look at the formula: PV=nRT P=pressure in Pascals V=volume in m^3 n=amount of a gaseous mixture in moles R=universal gas constant T=trmperature in Kelvin. Also, find a table of the boiling point/Vapor Pressure of water at a given temperature. Find your TDC pressure. Find some value of maximum combustion heat (usually above about 900 deg C, as NOx gases are produced). If you know how to use the formula, you'll find that the water should remain a liquid until well after TDC, even if it started off as a vapor before compression. Of course, I could be wrong. But I did some calc's about a year ago, and I found that you need a boiling point of about 40 deg C before a gaseous substance will stay a gas at TDC. Of course, I will repeat again that I could be WRONG, so it might still need to be researched. Danny Barrett. >Mike: > >Yes, I agree ...research project > >Timing water phase change requires work. We all know that the rate of >evaporation of a liquid dropplet suspended in a gas phase is a function of >the following variables: local turbulence, local temperature gradients, >local pressure surfaces, and dropplet size. Vaporization is driven by >fugacities of the gas phase versus the liquid phase. Experimentation would >have to be done with both dropplet size and injection temperature. > >Wayne Strasser >Chemical Engineer >EFI Patent Pending > From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 04:26:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA02226 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 04:26:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA02218 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 04:26:12 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA23082 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 18:26:10 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:26:10 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805020826.SAA23082@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: RE: Fw: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Firstly, H2O2 is ##**VERY CORROSIVE**##!!!!!!!!! I hope you kknow what you're doing with it. You'll notice that the H2O2 you get from the hardware store, etc is VERY DILUTE... Secondly, on H2O injection... Vaporise it FIRST by running your water line around the exhaust manifold. The water (from what I can tell) will still turn back into droplets while being compressed (see my reply of just a few minutes ago to another email), but, at least, it will already have enough heat in it to reevaporate when the compression is low enough. Then, any EXTRA heat it takes from the reaction should make it expand (it would already be expanded to a certain extent before it is put into the engine. Danny Barrett. >Hi yall, it's good to be back. > >Actually I really wanted to ask if anyone had any info about >injecting hydrogen peroxide, downstream of a turbo or SC. I'd like >to think with the right strength (30%?) you could get some of the >water-injection intercooling effect, but also some extra O2 from >the H2O2 breaking down. Hopefully it would all break down before >hitting the fuel, if not that'd probably be "bad", so it seems >like it's best suited to a low-efficiency SC and would only be >turned on above some temperature. > >(Don't worry, I wouldn't do this any more than I'd do nitromethane >injection, I just wondered what people had to say about it.) > >But while I'm here I can't resist this tidbit: > >Wayne Strasser wrote: > >> By injecting more water, the >> normally-wasted heat energy is utilized to induce a phase change in the >> water from liquid to vapor, which obviously raises combustion chamber >> pressures since water (at STP) expands by a factor of ~ 1400 when >> evaporated. Obviously, there is some optimum point here, since the >> existence of water molecules in the chamber impedes radical electron >> transfer processes and drops temperatures (hence the impact on >> detonation). >> not sure where that optimum is....comments from all? > >The problems are the high heat capacity of water and the high latent >heat of vaporization. You only get some number of kJ from burning >your cylinderfull of gas+air, and the water takes a great amount >of that heat to heat up and evaporate. Yes, it expands tremendously >when it does evaporate, and that's the only way you might come >out ahead, because otherwise that heat of evaporation will kill >you. It might help to have the water almost at boiling when you >inject it, but even so, compare water to some other hypothetical >fluid with a very low latent heat of vaporization. This other >fluid will use up much less energy evaporating, leaving much more >to heat & pressurize the just-evaporated gas. > >(As an aside, does anyone have the actual figures for latent heat >of v. for water, the the heat capacity of air? I think the former >was something like 500cal/g but I'm really not sure. I'd love to >make some actual calculations of some of this stuff.) > >OTOH it's exactly this high latent heat of v. that makes water >injection so great for intercooling. > >Probably the optimum is somewhere near the point at which the >water is heated almost to evaporation just before entering the >cylinder. You get maximum usable intercooling (without diluting >your charge with a tremendous volume of water vapor), but during >combustion the water *does* vaporize, giving you the phase >transition, but for a minimum of required heat. Now if someone >can manage the perfect droplet size profile to achieve this... > >(The above theoretical b.s. aside, yeah, it's a research project.) > > Chris C. > >p.s. got a cone shaped hat on order just in case I flubbed this one. > > > From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 04:37:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA02424 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 04:37:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA02418 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 04:37:14 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA23931 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 18:37:13 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:37:13 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805020837.SAA23931@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: METHANOL vs WATER INJECTION... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu The "OH" on the end of methanol (which makes it an alcohol) may be corrosive - You'll have to check this out. Look through the archives. There's a lot there on water and alcohol injection... >might be a good time to ask whether methanol injection injection may have >increased benefits over water injection. Methanol would seem to have >similar intake charge cooling properties, and yet it is combustible too... > >wouldn't this acheive a better result? > > > From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 07:46:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03945 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 07:46:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03941 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 07:46:10 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id HAA01565; Sat, 2 May 1998 07:46:09 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAC00298 for ; Sat, 02 May 1998 07:44:57 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 07:44:57 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805021144.HAC00298@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980502074512.007ab100@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 07:45:12 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Water/Akly Inj Recipe In-Reply-To: <199805020758.RAA20721@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >To "look" for a dud injector, try getting a piece of PVC or poly' pipe, and >pointing the end at each injector, respectively. You should hear the ticking >noise if it is in good order. if you hear more of a thudding noise, the >injector is either no good, or it is blocked... I have a small collection of junkyard injectors, in sets of six, based on their flow. While I used gasoline for this test, its been suggested by smarter folks that I had used other non-volitile substances for below test. I have a 50A power supply, I made a simple circuit consisting of a 50A power transistor, a resistor, and a parallel port connector. I connected the six injectors to a fuel rail/fuel pump which the in-tank pump sits in a bucket of gasoline (or non-volitile substance). I use a DOS noteboook to pulse the transistor, which then pulses the injectors, which then fill up six large, narrow beakers. After one of them reach near the top of the beaker fuel level wise, I stop and evaluate the other injectors. Injectors that flow about the same, got grouped together. For beakers, I used those 7-day holiday candles, which are pyrex glass about 3" wide and about a foot high, minus the candle wax. (After you use the candles up, you put the candle glass into a pot of stove-heated water, and the wax comes right out, and they are about 2 bucks a pop, and less hassle than ordering anything from Edmunds Scientific. Instead of a PC parallel port, you could use a 555-timer set for a 50% duty cycle. I got the idea from one of the many car magazines... I saw an article on injectors, and how they blueprint and measure the flow. So, I slapped some stuff together and simulated the basic idea. Also, if you are going for the junkyard thing, try to find cars that have been recently added to the junkyard pile...vehicles that have been sitting for a long time usually have corroded injectors, which wastes your time. Hope I helped. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 10:13:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04646 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 10:13:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04642 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 10:13:41 -0400 Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA01706; Sat, 2 May 1998 10:13:42 -0400 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA11857; Sat, 2 May 1998 09:13:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nbw-nj9-10.ix.netcom.com(198.211.225.138) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma011795; Sat May 2 09:13:18 1998 Message-ID: <354B2A5F.17E@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 10:14:55 -0400 From: Ed X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu, dfi@kens.com Subject: Thanks for help regarding the DFI harness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Finished wiring the car around 1:00 am today. I can't tell yet if there's any bugs because upon priming the fuel pump, we found a fuel leak coming from the top of one fuel injector. After tightening down a bit more on the fuel rail mounts, the mentioned injector sealed fine, but then another sprang a leak. Murphy's law strikes again! We hope the dyno shop may be able to modify or machine us a new rail, since he mentioned they have an in-house CNC machine. -Ed From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 11:50:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05265 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 11:50:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from boito.videotron.net (boito.videotron.net [205.151.222.85]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05261 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 11:50:36 -0400 Received: from george (modemcable147.111.mmtl.videotron.net [207.253.111.147]) by boito.videotron.net (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id LAA00854 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 11:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000801bd75fb$1daa8f00$936ffdcf@george.videotron.ca> From: "Nadia" To: Subject: ECM for GM Corsica 88 2.8L Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:50:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi everybody ! Does somebody now what command I need to send to ALDL line to start data dump from ECM? My specific model is GM Corsica 88 2.8L V6. All the time I have only logical "1" from this serial line. I tried "0K" and "3.9K" modes so far. Thanks, George From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 12:19:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05725 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 12:19:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05721 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 12:19:41 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MBP00431; Sat, 02 May 1998 12:19:23 EDT To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 12:10:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... Message-ID: <19980502.121845.16246.0.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <199805020816.SAA22269@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-6,11-12,18-19,27-30,33-35,40-46,48-49,51, 53-63,65-69,71-73,75-76,78,80-90,92,94-95,97-102 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu I follow your reasoning, but I don't follow your use of the ideal gas law. You are saying (correct me if I am wrong) that the pressure at TDC is high enough to keep the water in the liquid phase because the boiling point is so high at that pressure. As the piston drops and the pressure tries to fall, more water will flash into steam, keeping the pressure higher than it would be without the water. This will increase the power output. The trick is to inject the proper amount of water. You would want to run out of water on the way down so that the pressure can drop before the exhaust valve opens. To get an idea if this will work, you'll have to look at a steam table. That table lists the boiling point of water at various pressures. You can also get the mass density of the steam at various temperatures and pressures. You would normally use the ideal gas law (PV=nRT) to calculate this, but steam isn't an ideal gas until you get well above the boiling temperature at that pressure. Even nitrogen and oxygen aren't ideal gases at room temperature and pressure. They're really close, though. We did an experiment in chemistry class where we did some measurements and compared them to the ideal gas law. They were off by a few tenths of a percent. We then used Van Der Wal's non-ideal gas formula to calculate the expeted pressure and volume and found it to match the ideal gas law to within about six or seven significent figures. The difference was trivial compared to our experimental error. That isn't the case with steam. The differences are significent. I'm sure that someone on the list can tell us what the typical and maximum temperatures and pressures are at TDC. Also, maybe someone can point us to a steam table somewhere on the web. Hmmm... I just thought of something: If injecting water results in a lower exhaust temperature, more heat will be used to power the engine and less will be wasted out the exhaust. If the water is vaporizing as the piston drops (as explained above), the exhaust temperature will be lower because the water is absorbing the heat. Ray Drouillard, BSEE On Sat, 2 May 1998 18:16:05 +1000 (EST) danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) writes: >G'day there, when I consider the things I've been taught in my physical >chemistry calsses (before college, and during my Engineering degree that I >am currently doing), the water should (I won't say will - I could be wrong) >stay in the liquid phase until after TDC. Look at the formula: > >PV=nRT > >P=pressure in Pascals >V=volume in m^3 >n=amount of a gaseous mixture in moles >R=universal gas constant >T=trmperature in Kelvin. > >Also, find a table of the boiling point/Vapor Pressure of water at a given >temperature. > >Find your TDC pressure. > >Find some value of maximum combustion heat (usually above about 900 deg C, >as NOx gases are produced). > >If you know how to use the formula, you'll find that the water should remain >a liquid until well after TDC, even if it started off as a vapor before >compression. Of course, I could be wrong. But I did some calc's about a year >ago, and I found that you need a boiling point of about 40 deg C before a >gaseous substance will stay a gas at TDC. Of course, I will repeat again >that I could be WRONG, so it might still need to be researched. > >Danny Barrett. > >>Mike: >> >>Yes, I agree ...research project >> >>Timing water phase change requires work. We all know that the rate of >>evaporation of a liquid dropplet suspended in a gas phase is a function of >>the following variables: local turbulence, local temperature gradients, >>local pressure surfaces, and dropplet size. Vaporization is driven by >>fugacities of the gas phase versus the liquid phase. Experimentation would >>have to be done with both dropplet size and injection temperature. >> >>Wayne Strasser >>Chemical Engineer >>EFI Patent Pending _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 13:11:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06348 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 13:11:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06344 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 13:11:14 -0400 Received: from emerald.tufts.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA01861; Sat, 2 May 1998 13:11:14 -0400 Received: from tufts.edu (st1254.tc.tufts.edu) by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #23568) with ESMTP id <0ESC00HLKAEP7T@emerald.tufts.edu> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sat, 2 May 1998 13:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 13:10:56 -0400 From: Andris Skulte Subject: Blown fuel/timing maps To: "Third-Gen@f-body.org" , blown , DIY_EFI Message-id: <354B53A0.29F4208D@tufts.edu> X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu For all you turboed and supercharged V8's out there... As most of you know, the twin turboes will be going on the IROC this week. I need to get a ballpark fuel and timing map for the DFI so I don't blow up the engine the first time out. If you have any of these maps, or tips on how to make one (do I just increase the pulsewidth at WOT by the pressure ratio?) I'd really appreciate it. TIA! Andris -- *********Skulte Performance Designs---WWW.SKULTE.COM********** Your third and fourth generation f-body specialists ******89 IROC M5 305TPI---13.5@104.1--320 hp/475 ft-lbs******* From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 14:33:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06942 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 14:33:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from relay1.impsat1.com (relay1.impsat1.com [200.31.1.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06938 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 14:33:36 -0400 Received: from mail.roche.com.ar (200.32.125.7.impsat.net.ar [200.32.125.7]) by relay1.impsat1.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA01797 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:33:21 +0300 (GMT) Received: from 200.32.125.21.impsat.net.ar [200.32.125.21] by mail.roche.com.ar (SMTPD32-4.03) id AFA336C00FA; Sat, 02 May 1998 15:35:15 PDT Received: by 200.32.125.21.impsat.net.ar with Microsoft Mail id <01BD75DF.82FE42A0@200.32.125.21.impsat.net.ar>; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:32:27 -0300 Message-ID: <01BD75DF.82FE42A0@200.32.125.21.impsat.net.ar> From: Anibal Aguirre To: "'DIY_EFI'" Subject: PRO ENGINE& others prog. Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 15:31:34 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu hi friends:I'm new in the list.......... I'don't have many experience with the ECU's but I want to crack it... I have a PROENGINE SOFTWARE and others similar.... they show a lot of curves as representation of address and data...but the question is!!! where I can get info about where is the desired data (hi rpm level, advance...) in the proengine representation.... where (internet address) I can find people that "work" in the ecu cracking??? any replay(by mail) will be pleased. thanks for your time sincerely anibal From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 16:01:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07527 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:01:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from guardian.egr.up.edu (guardian.egr.up.edu [192.102.10.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07523 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:01:04 -0400 Received: from upsun28.egr.up.edu by guardian.egr.up.edu with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0yViWe-000qCaC; Sat, 2 May 98 13:04 PDT Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 12:59:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Vandrachek To: "'DIY_EFI'" Subject: Points ignition and EFI? (HELP!) In-Reply-To: <01BD75DF.82FE42A0@200.32.125.21.impsat.net.ar> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anybody in EFI land ever heard of a standard pts igntion system being used with an EFI system. I am designing a system based on a Motorola HC12 and need to know if the noise from points ignition will cause problems. I am working with a time crunch so I don't have time to convert to electronic igntion. What can I do to minimize this kind of noise? Any kind of advice would be greatly appreciated! Chris Vondrachek chrisv@egr.up.edu From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 16:28:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07763 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:28:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07757 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:28:22 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-40.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.58]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id QAA00543 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:27:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Blown fuel/timing maps Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 16:28:44 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7608$e72ace00$3a198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Andris Skulte Subject: Blown fuel/timing maps >For all you turboed and supercharged V8's out there... As most of you >know, the twin turboes will be going on the IROC this week. I need to >get a ballpark fuel and timing map for the DFI so I don't blow up the >engine the first time out. The best I could offer would be coping something off a syty (749) fuel/timing map and passing that along. Come to think of it I guess could do the same for timing off a Buick V-6 for timing, it's maf The syty is a 4.3 (2/3 of SBC) so it might be best, let me know, it's a all typing exercise, so ain't gonna be instant (ie day or 2). No worries mate Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 16:34:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07834 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:34:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07830 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:34:26 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-40.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.58]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id QAA02467 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:33:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: PRO ENGINE& others prog. Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 16:34:48 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7609$c051a000$3a198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Anibal Aguirre Subject: PRO ENGINE& others prog. >hi friends:I'm new in the list.......... >I'don't have many experience with the ECU's but I want to crack it... >I have a PROENGINE SOFTWARE What is this, an engine simulator?. and others similar.... >they show a lot of curves as representation of address and data...but the >question is!!! where I can get info about where is the desired data (hi rpm level, >advance...) in the proengine representation.... >where (internet address) I can find people that "work" in the ecu cracking??? > If your looking for "cracked ecms" ya might look at the syty area, and at the Buick Turbo Home Page. We have an ongoing project of finding table locations on the gm 747 (TBI V-6-8) ecm. What are you working one, and what do you want to do?. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 16:43:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08023 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:43:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail-relay.ubc.ca (mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08019; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:43:02 -0400 Received: from brc.ubc.ca (koala.brc.ubc.ca [137.82.2.60]) by mail-relay.ubc.ca [137.82.1.2] (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA18187; Sat, 2 May 1998 13:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from koala by brc.ubc.ca (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id NAA18655; Sat, 2 May 1998 13:42:19 -0700 Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 13:42:19 -0700 (PDT) From: James Weiler X-Sender: james@koala To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: "'DIY_EFI'" Subject: Re: PRO ENGINE& others prog. In-Reply-To: <01BD75DF.82FE42A0@200.32.125.21.impsat.net.ar> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu What ECU's are you planning on craking ? Can you describe your software some more? What does it do? Is it an emulator? later jw From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 20:39:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10143 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 20:39:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10139 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 20:39:06 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA06528 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 10:39:04 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 10:39:04 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805030039.KAA06528@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Holden Commodore, Aerodynamics. AND NOW: WATER INJECTION... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu I see your point about the ideal gas law. Yes, it is only an approximation to a real gas, but the "real gas law" is a bit harder to use if you can't find the various extra constants, so the ideal gas law is better than nothing. However, as you say, a steam table would be by the best idea, as these are made up from actual experimental results, and reflect the real characteristics of steam. Danny Barrett >I follow your reasoning, but I don't follow your use of the ideal gas >law. > >You are saying (correct me if I am wrong) that the pressure at TDC is >high enough to keep the water in the liquid phase because the boiling >point is so high at that pressure. > >As the piston drops and the pressure tries to fall, more water will flash >into steam, keeping the pressure higher than it would be without the >water. This will increase the power output. The trick is to inject the >proper amount of water. You would want to run out of water on the way >down so that the pressure can drop before the exhaust valve opens. > >To get an idea if this will work, you'll have to look at a steam table. >That table lists the boiling point of water at various pressures. You >can also get the mass density of the steam at various temperatures and >pressures. You would normally use the ideal gas law (PV=nRT) to >calculate this, but steam isn't an ideal gas until you get well above the >boiling temperature at that pressure. > >Even nitrogen and oxygen aren't ideal gases at room temperature and >pressure. They're really close, though. We did an experiment in >chemistry class where we did some measurements and compared them to the >ideal gas law. They were off by a few tenths of a percent. We then used >Van Der Wal's non-ideal gas formula to calculate the expeted pressure and >volume and found it to match the ideal gas law to within about six or >seven significent figures. The difference was trivial compared to our >experimental error. > >That isn't the case with steam. The differences are significent. > >I'm sure that someone on the list can tell us what the typical and >maximum temperatures and pressures are at TDC. Also, maybe someone can >point us to a steam table somewhere on the web. > >Hmmm... I just thought of something: >If injecting water results in a lower exhaust temperature, more heat will >be used to power the engine and less will be wasted out the exhaust. If >the water is vaporizing as the piston drops (as explained above), the >exhaust temperature will be lower because the water is absorbing the >heat. > > >Ray Drouillard, BSEE From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 20:45:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10218 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 20:45:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10214 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 20:45:14 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA06997 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 10:45:12 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 10:45:12 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805030045.KAA06997@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: PRO ENGINE& others prog. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu There's an easy way to crack an ECU... put it on a rock and hit it with a sledge hammer... But I'm sure there are less destructive methods, and even ones that will allow you to use it afterward... (Ha! Ha!.....) >hi friends:I'm new in the list.......... >I'don't have many experience with the ECU's but I want to crack it... >I have a PROENGINE SOFTWARE and others similar.... >they show a lot of curves as representation of address and data...but the >question is!!! where I can get info about where is the desired data (hi rpm level, >advance...) in the proengine representation.... >where (internet address) I can find people that "work" in the ecu cracking??? > >any replay(by mail) will be pleased. >thanks for your time > > sincerely >anibal > > > > From diy_efi-owner Sat May 2 21:59:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA11127 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 21:59:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11123 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 21:59:18 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA12463 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:59:15 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 11:59:15 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805030159.LAA12463@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re:WATER INJECTION...(was Holden...etc.) X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu G'Day again... I've just finished with the rest of my email, so I can give a better answer to the one I just ave a few minutes ago... This email is partially directed to Ray, and partially directed to others. Note that although I may seem to have quite a few answers, I have MANY more questions than answers, and I am by no means an expert on this topic... >You are saying (correct me if I am wrong) that the pressure at TDC is >high enough to keep the water in the liquid phase because the boiling >point is so high at that pressure. Yes, this is what I am saying. However, since I used the ideal gas law, I could be wrong (as I stated in the original email). However, what I am trying to say is that the partial pressure of the steam should be at its maximum somewhere after TDC, so direct injection into the combustion chamber should not be required. >As the piston drops and the pressure tries to fall, more water will flash >into steam, keeping the pressure higher than it would be without the >water. This will increase the power output. The trick is to inject the >proper amount of water. You would want to run out of water on the way >down so that the pressure can drop before the exhaust valve opens. Yes, more water will flash into steam (around 1400 times as much volume taken up as water), giving more power due to its expansion - in reality, if the water was steam before it was compressed back into water, it only uts back what it had put into it, BUT it will also ABSORB extra heat, and hence expand further - this is where the power increase occurs. >To get an idea if this will work, you'll have to look at a steam table. >That table lists the boiling point of water at various pressures. You >can also get the mass density of the steam at various temperatures and >pressures. You would normally use the ideal gas law (PV=nRT) to >calculate this, but steam isn't an ideal gas until you get well above the >boiling temperature at that pressure. > >Even nitrogen and oxygen aren't ideal gases at room temperature and >pressure. They're really close, though. We did an experiment in >chemistry class where we did some measurements and compared them to the >ideal gas law. They were off by a few tenths of a percent. We then used >Van Der Wal's non-ideal gas formula to calculate the expeted pressure and >volume and found it to match the ideal gas law to within about six or >seven significent figures. The difference was trivial compared to our >experimental error. > >That isn't the case with steam. The differences are significent. > >I'm sure that someone on the list can tell us what the typical and >maximum temperatures and pressures are at TDC. Also, maybe someone can >point us to a steam table somewhere on the web. Absolutely correct. However, the ideal gas law will at least give a "feel" for what is going on. Of course, it is no substitute for a good set of steam properties tables... >Hmmm... I just thought of something: >If injecting water results in a lower exhaust temperature, more heat will >be used to power the engine and less will be wasted out the exhaust. If >the water is vaporizing as the piston drops (as explained above), the >exhaust temperature will be lower because the water is absorbing the >heat. Yes... That is the whole idea of it (amongst other things for other reasons). Someone who I have had the pleasure of knowing for about a year has had water injection systems (home brew) on his car (normally aspirated 6cyl, early '70's plymouth), and it gave him better fuel economy, and better power (although I can't remember what he got just now). As for my experience with it, I had a home brew system, but it wasn't set up very well - it would either use too much, or not enough - it was very hard to strike the "happy medium." However, on such a day that I got it right, my fuel economy in my 1980 GM Holden VC Commodore (Australia), I got 33 MPG (Imperial Gallons), instead of my usual 26 MPG to 28 MPG (Imperial Gallons again). As you can see, there was a considerable improvement. Of course, a lot of it would have been due to nice driving conditions, but I have had similar conditions, and had been driving with a similar "style," and all I would get is a maximum of about 28 MPG. So, where did the difference come from? Probably the water injection. To get maximum power from a forced flow engine (Turbo, Super charge), I am told you need about 30% to 50% of the fuel volume as water. This is mainly as an anti-knock agent to "intercool" the air, and keep the combustion cooler. However, I am inclined to believe that the maximum benefit for a naturally aspirated engine would be derrived from injecting steam, as it has already been heated through its latent heat of evaporation (a major absorber of energy for water injection) and into the gaseous state (although it will condense on the compression stroke, but will re-vaporise when the compression is taken away, no matter what heat is or isn't transfered to it). However, this would be no-good for turbo engines, as they need the latent heat of vaporisation for its anti-knock properties. For fuel efficiency, I am told that not much is needed (only about 3 litres of water per 100 litres of gasoline), however, I am always interested in other peoples opinions, as the broader experience of many people gives a larger knowledge base than the "not so broad" experiences of a smaller number of people. Anyway, for fuel economy, from what I can tell, you need only a small amount (as stated above). It is best to have this "trace" amount being injected all of the time, once the engine has "warmed up." However, if you are going to use the water as an anti-knock agent, then it is best injected in larger quantitied at high load/boost. Look through the archive on water injection (as I did in the last few days). There is a lot of stuff there, and a lot can be learned (from both the for and against sides). For fuel economy, it might be an idea to boil the water first with exhaust heat, and then inject the steamy air into the intake charge. What are other peoples ideas on this? Also, there is the point that just because it seems to work for one engine, it doesn't mean it will work for them all. Danny Barrett. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 00:12:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA12202 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 00:12:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from admin.inetport.com (inetport.com [206.64.12.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12198 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 00:12:05 -0400 Received: from default (as01-4.inetport.com [206.64.12.84]) by admin.inetport.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA08017 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 23:12:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805030412.XAA08017@admin.inetport.com> From: "Zack" To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 23:16:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re:WATER INJECTION...(was Holden...etc.) Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199805030159.LAA12463@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Danny, I think I disagree on the point of whether water injected at the intake will stay in the liquid phase during compression. I think the source of our disagreement would be, as you say, the fact that you're using the ideal gas law to calculate pressure. You can only do this if the compression is isothermal. In reality, the compression phase occurs quickly enough that it would be more correct to use an isentropic model. In that case, the temperature of the gas is given by: T = T0 * ( V / V0 ) ^ (gamma - 1) Where gamma for air is about 1.4. So, if we start with a charge of 80 degree F intake air, and compress it by a factor of 8.5:1, the temperature of the air at the end of the compression phase will be more than 800 degree F at the end of the compression stroke. At 80 degrees, the vapor pressure of water is about 0.003 atm. My steam tables only go up to 705 degrees (since that's the critical point), at which point the vapor pressure is a whopping 218 atm. So... I think there's no question that if you inject water in the intake, all of that water will have turned to steam before the completion of the compression stroke. In the process, that vaporization will absorb a large quantity of heat which would have otherwise gone to raising the temperature of the air, resulting in a cooler air charge at TDC. If you were to vaporize the water prior to injecting it into the intake, you would lose the cooling benefits of injecting the water as a liquid. In that case, injecting water vapor would be just like injecting any other inert gas. Zack > > >You are saying (correct me if I am wrong) that the pressure at TDC is > >high enough to keep the water in the liquid phase because the boiling > >point is so high at that pressure. > > Yes, this is what I am saying. However, since I used the ideal gas law, I > could be wrong (as I stated in the original email). However, what I am > trying to say is that the partial pressure of the steam should be at its > maximum somewhere after TDC, so direct injection into the combustion chamber > should not be required. > > >As the piston drops and the pressure tries to fall, more water will flash > >into steam > > Yes, more water will flash into steam (around 1400 times as much volume > taken up as water), giving more power due to its expansion - From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 00:39:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA12521 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 00:39:57 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.33]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12516 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 00:39:54 -0400 Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8OCa002864 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 00:39:21 -0400 (EDT) From: ECMnut Message-ID: <1dcd8f40.354bf4fa@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 00:39:21 EDT To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: WATER INJECTION...(was Holden...etc.) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Something that is slightly off thread... Many moons ago, I had a spearco water injection system on a home brew turboed 5.7 in a Vega It was not intercooled, and I need the water inj. to run more than 7 psi of boost.. After a full summer of heavy abuse, I tore it down for a re-ring, and I couldn't believe how clean & shiny the pistons & top rings were. About a year later, I read that the cleanliness was a side-effect of the water injection.. My brain is a slow locomotive, and I never really thought of it until I saw it in print. No CSH back in those days either.. Mike V From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 01:38:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13377 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 01:38:06 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13373 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 01:38:04 -0400 Received: from pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.105]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA00782 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:38:02 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 15:38:02 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805030538.PAA00782@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: WATER INJECTION...(was Holden...etc.) X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu >From the things that I have been told, this is VERY true. In case you haven't seen them, recently I have seen people's messages (either in the archive, and/or in the recent mailings) which say that to clean your engine out, run it at about 1500 RPM, and slowly spray in about a pint of water down the carb throat or into the air duct of an EFI engine. This should take about 2 to 2 and a half hours. It's a long time to stand there playing with a running engine, but it is supposed to clean it out really nicely. Alternatively, put the water injection back on for a couple of hundred hours (I assume it is the type that comes on at WOT, if not, then it will take far less time), and the engine should be nice and clean. When I had my water injection on, I didn't have it on for long enough to get the nice side-affects. My system was an experimental home brew job, and it was rushed together in an hour, so due care wasn't really taken. It was too hard to adjust properly, so it never worked properly. I'm thinging about designing another one soon. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Danny Barrett. >Something that is slightly off thread... >Many moons ago, I had a spearco water injection >system on a home brew turboed 5.7 in a Vega >It was not intercooled, and I need the water inj. to >run more than 7 psi of boost.. >After a full summer of heavy abuse, I tore it down >for a re-ring, and I couldn't believe how clean & >shiny the pistons & top rings were. >About a year later, I read that the cleanliness was a >side-effect of the water injection.. My brain is a slow >locomotive, and I never really thought of it until I saw it in print. >No CSH back in those days either.. >Mike V > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 01:44:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13465 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 01:44:41 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13461 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 01:44:40 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id BrK00431; Sun, 03 May 1998 01:43:54 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 00:14:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Blown fuel/timing maps Message-ID: <19980503.014312.16334.0.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <01bd7608$e72ace00$3a198fd1@nacelp> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-20,25-26,29-31 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 2 May 1998 16:28:44 -0400 "Bruce Plecan" writes: >From: Andris Skulte >Subject: Blown fuel/timing maps > > >>For all you turboed and supercharged V8's out there... As most of you >>know, the twin turboes will be going on the IROC this week. I need to >>get a ballpark fuel and timing map for the DFI so I don't blow up the >>engine the first time out. > >The best I could offer would be coping something off a syty (749) >fuel/timing map and passing that along. >Come to think of it I guess could do the same for timing off a Buick >V-6 for timing, it's maf >The syty is a 4.3 (2/3 of SBC) so it might be best, let me know, >it's a all typing exercise, so ain't gonna be instant (ie day or 2). >No worries mate >Bruce Are you using a MAF or MAP system? If you are using a MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor, simply extrapolate the table up into the >100 KPa region. I don't have any experience with MAF (Mass Air Flow) systems, but I suspect that you would similarly extrapolate the table up into the higher airflow regions that were unreachable before. BTW, the Holley Pro-Jection is a MAP system, and can plot up to about 130 KPa. That means that it'll handle about a five PSI boost without trouble. Ray Drouillard. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 01:44:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13471 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 01:44:46 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13466 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 01:44:44 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id BrL00431; Sun, 03 May 1998 01:43:54 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 00:14:56 -0400 Subject: Re: WATER INJECTION...(was Holden...etc.) Message-ID: <19980503.014312.16334.1.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <199805030159.LAA12463@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4,6,8,10-12,15-16,20-21,29-30,34-35,42-43,47-48, 53-54,59-62 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 3 May 1998 11:59:15 +1000 (EST) danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) writes: >G'Day again... >I've just finished with the rest of my email, so I can give a better answer >to the one I just ave a few minutes ago... This email is partially directed >to Ray, and partially directed to others. Note that although I may seem to >have quite a few answers, I have MANY more questions than answers, and I am >by no means an expert on this topic... You're more of an expert than I am. You, at least, have tried it. The motto at Lawrence Technological University (my Alma Mater) is "Theory and Practice". Anyhow, I'm all for increasing the economy of my engine. I drive a 1989 Jeep Grand Wagoneer powered by a 360 CID V8 (AMC, not Chrysler). It drinks fuel, so a 20% increase like you have experienced would be well worthwhile. I have already screpped the carburater and added Holley Pro-Jection. I am working on modifying the ignition system so that I can use the spark control that is available with the Holley box. After that, I'll add a knock sensor. My next scheme will be to build one of those wide-range O2 sensors and feed the signal into the ECM in place of the origional O2 sensor. I can then modify the table that allows you to choose the O2 voltage that feedback system tries to track. That way, I can program it to run way lean during cruise and rich at low vacuum. This water injection idea is interesting, and looks promising. If the ideal injected amount is proportional to the amount of fuel injected, I can simply use the injecter signal. If it also depends on the manifold absolute pressure, I will need to take that into account. If steam is injected and it does, in fact, recondense at TDC, that heat will be given up there and will increase the temperature of the compressed air/fuel mixture. Once the mixture ignites and the piston starts to drop, the heat will be reabsorbed as the liquid droplets flash into steam. Now, it's beginning to look like something that recycles waste heat from the exhaust. That sounds way out there, so I'll have to give it some thought. Back to practice vs. theory. The experimental data seems to indicate increased efficiency when the proper amount of water is injected. We need to come up with a plausable theory to explain it. Also, we need to reproduce the results of the experiment. My origional thought on using water injection was to increase the compression enough to need higher octane gas, and to use the water injection as an antiknock agent. That way, I could run high compression with cheap gas. Water would, in that case, only need to be injected when the throttle is opened wide. By the way, please don't get the idea that all of my mods are strictly for better fuel economy. I could buy a LOT of fuel with the money that I have sunk into that vehicle. What I really like (don't tell my wife) is the extra power and drivability. If all I wanted was better economy, I would stick a six-banger in it. Ray Drouillard _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 01:54:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13762 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 01:54:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13757 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 01:54:24 -0400 Received: from pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.105]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA02787 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:54:22 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 15:54:22 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805030554.PAA02787@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re:WATER INJECTION X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well Gents, it seems we have a difinative answer. Thankyou Zack. So, now that it has been shown that the steam WILL stay vaporised (which was the opposite of my prediction), can anyone come up with anything that will show whether the steam's maximum partial pressure will be before or after TDC? Also, what if we were to inject the water at say 90 deg C (194 deg F). It has not yet boiled, but it has gone nearly all the way to boiling, so the energy completely lost due to latent heat of evaporation will be lowered as much as possible? This way, we will not be injecting an "inert gas" but a liquid that is just about ready to flash to a vapor. Please bear in mind that the water would be heated by the exhaust manifold. Danny Barrett. >Danny, > > >I think I disagree on the point of whether water injected at the >intake will stay in the liquid phase during compression. I think the >source of our disagreement would be, as you say, the fact that you're >using the ideal gas law to calculate pressure. You can only do this >if the compression is isothermal. In reality, the compression phase >occurs quickly enough that it would be more correct to use an >isentropic model. In that case, the temperature of the gas is given >by: > >T = T0 * ( V / V0 ) ^ (gamma - 1) > >Where gamma for air is about 1.4. So, if we start with a charge of >80 degree F intake air, and compress it by a factor of 8.5:1, the >temperature of the air at the end of the compression phase will be >more than 800 degree F at the end of the compression stroke. >At 80 degrees, the vapor pressure of water is about 0.003 atm. My >steam tables only go up to 705 degrees (since that's the critical >point), at which point the vapor pressure is a whopping 218 atm. > So... I think there's no question that if you inject water in the >intake, all of that water will have turned to steam before the >completion of the compression stroke. In the process, that >vaporization will absorb a large quantity of heat which would have >otherwise gone to raising the temperature of the air, resulting in a >cooler air charge at TDC. > If you were to vaporize the water prior to injecting it into the >intake, you would lose the cooling benefits of injecting the water as >a liquid. In that case, injecting water vapor would be just like >injecting any other inert gas. > >Zack > >> >> >You are saying (correct me if I am wrong) that the pressure at TDC is >> >high enough to keep the water in the liquid phase because the boiling >> >point is so high at that pressure. >> >> Yes, this is what I am saying. However, since I used the ideal gas law, I >> could be wrong (as I stated in the original email). However, what I am >> trying to say is that the partial pressure of the steam should be at its >> maximum somewhere after TDC, so direct injection into the combustion chamber >> should not be required. >> >> >As the piston drops and the pressure tries to fall, more water will flash >> >into steam >> >> Yes, more water will flash into steam (around 1400 times as much volume >> taken up as water), giving more power due to its expansion - > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 03:39:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA15156 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 03:39:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA15152 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 03:39:13 -0400 Received: from pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.105]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA11887 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:39:11 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 17:39:11 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805030739.RAA11887@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: WATER INJECTION...(was Holden...etc.) X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well, I wouldn't say it woould give 20% better fuel economy - as I said before, there were a few other factors, but it could have possibly (maybe, maybe not) been as much as 5% or 6%, as out of the blue (usually once every 2 years) I get about 30 to 32 MPG on one run - just to give me a glimmer of hope for better mileage. Please read some of the stuff that has gone on since the email that you were quoting from. My idea that water remains a liquid even at TDC has been shown to be incorrect. However, this may work to our advantage (provided the maximum steam partial pressure is not before TDC), as it will start to "push" earlier than re-vaporising steam would (as it is already steam). Please see one of my previous emails (replying to Zack) for mmore info - I don't want to repeat it, as it is long winded... Danny Barrett. >You're more of an expert than I am. You, at least, have tried it. The >motto at Lawrence Technological University (my Alma Mater) is "Theory and >Practice". > >Anyhow, I'm all for increasing the economy of my engine. I drive a 1989 >Jeep Grand Wagoneer powered by a 360 CID V8 (AMC, not Chrysler). It >drinks fuel, so a 20% increase like you have experienced would be well >worthwhile. > >I have already screpped the carburater and added Holley Pro-Jection. I >am working on modifying the ignition system so that I can use the spark >control that is available with the Holley box. After that, I'll add a >knock sensor. My next scheme will be to build one of those wide-range O2 >sensors and feed the signal into the ECM in place of the origional O2 >sensor. I can then modify the table that allows you to choose the O2 >voltage that feedback system tries to track. That way, I can program it >to run way lean during cruise and rich at low vacuum. > >This water injection idea is interesting, and looks promising. If the >ideal injected amount is proportional to the amount of fuel injected, I >can simply use the injecter signal. If it also depends on the manifold >absolute pressure, I will need to take that into account. > >If steam is injected and it does, in fact, recondense at TDC, that heat >will be given up there and will increase the temperature of the >compressed air/fuel mixture. Once the mixture ignites and the piston >starts to drop, the heat will be reabsorbed as the liquid droplets flash >into steam. Now, it's beginning to look like something that recycles >waste heat from the exhaust. That sounds way out there, so I'll have to >give it some thought. > >Back to practice vs. theory. The experimental data seems to indicate >increased efficiency when the proper amount of water is injected. We >need to come up with a plausable theory to explain it. Also, we need to >reproduce the results of the experiment. > >My origional thought on using water injection was to increase the >compression enough to need higher octane gas, and to use the water >injection as an antiknock agent. That way, I could run high compression >with cheap gas. Water would, in that case, only need to be injected when >the throttle is opened wide. > >By the way, please don't get the idea that all of my mods are strictly >for better fuel economy. I could buy a LOT of fuel with the money that I >have sunk into that vehicle. What I really like (don't tell my wife) is >the extra power and drivability. If all I wanted was better economy, I >would stick a six-banger in it. > >Ray Drouillard > > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 05:05:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA15705 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 05:05:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA15699 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 05:05:49 -0400 Received: from pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.105]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA17722 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:05:46 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:05:46 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805030905.TAA17722@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Water Injection. What do we agree on so far? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu OK Gents. This discussion has happened a few times before, if we look in the archives, and to what I can tell, not once has a definitive answer been obtained as to whether water injection would/should work in normally aspirated engines. We should all know that it is very valuable as an anti-knock agent in turbo/supercharged engines - it has been used for years. I think that we obviously have some very intelegent people here, and I believe that we should be able to come up with an answer to this problem, so that if the subject comes up again by newly registered people to this mailing list we can give them the one true and final answer (if possible), and tell them to look it up on the archives (and, yes, I'm actually the guilty party for bring up the topic this time, as I have a certain amount of knowledge, but I want to know the absolute answer). What do we all agree on? Who agrees/disagrees with the following? It has been shown that the water injected will vaporise before TDC, and remain vaporised throughout the compression/power strokes. For economy and power in normally aspirated engines, to reduce the amount of energy lost due to latent heat of evaporation, the water should be heated by the exhaust manifold to say 90 deg C (194 deg F), so that it is still a liquid, and not simply another inert gas. If the anti-knock properties are needed (ie. Turbo, and Supercharged engines), however, the water should be injected cold to make use of the latent heat of vaporisation (Note, this has been a known, tried and true method for possibly longer than many of us have been around). For fuel economy in normally aspirated engines, a small amount of water may help, but it should not be used in quantities remotely resembling those used in turbo/super charged engines. Questions yet to be answered in gaining the absolute answer: Are the expansion properties of steam better than those of N2, O2 (ie. excess O2 in the charge), CO2 and NO (produced at least in small quantities due to the heat of the reaction in the cylinder)? If so, what quantity of water, at what temperature should be injected so that the benefit of extra horespower (without extra fuel) is maximised (considering water's tendancy to "put out" the combustion process)? Also, If water injection (without an increase in fuel used) gives more power, would this equate to more fuel efficiency if your driving habits do not change? If water injection is viable (as far as increased power/efficiency is concerned, without the use of extra fuel), how (or should) we de-chlorinate/de-floridate the water? Should we use a vehicle mounted charcoal filter? Or should we filter the water before it is put into the vehicle? If you have any other questions/points, feel free to add them... Danny Barrett. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 06:16:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA16048 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 06:16:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA16044 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 06:16:32 -0400 Received: from pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.105]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA23598 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:16:30 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:16:30 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805031016.UAA23598@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone out there know anything about refrigerants? I need to know if there are any refrigerants (or series thereof) that will work between about 20 deg C, and about 500 to 600 deg C. This might not sound like EFI to me, but I am working on an invention that has everything to do with EFI, and the use of such refrigerants would make this device much better. Sorry, I can't disclose what the invention is at the moment, as I might want to take out a patent in the future (NOTE: This invention has nothing to do with water injection, of which I am currently discussing with various prople). Thanks. Danny Barrett. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 08:26:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16686 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 08:26:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail2.mailsorter.net (mail2.mailsorter.net [207.67.128.17] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16682 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 08:26:33 -0400 Received: from paccomm ([163.125.16.131]) by mail2.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA14583 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 05:26:17 -0700 From: "Gwyn Reedy" To: Subject: Re: Refrigerants Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 08:24:34 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd768e$6f20dc20$LocalHost@paccomm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? If you can find a refrigerant that will work down to about -100C or whatever the temp of 'dry ice' is, then you can make a practical refrigerated intercooler suitable for drag races, or longer races if you have a large dry ice bin. Gwyn Reedy Brandon, FL -----Original Message----- From: Danny Barrett To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 8:08 AM Subject: Refrigerants >Does anyone out there know anything about refrigerants? I need to know if >there are any refrigerants (or series thereof) that will work between about >20 deg C, and about 500 to 600 deg C. This might not sound like EFI to me, >but I am working on an invention that has everything to do with EFI, and the >use of such refrigerants would make this device much better. Sorry, I can't >disclose what the invention is at the moment, as I might want to take out a >patent in the future (NOTE: This invention has nothing to do with water >injection, of which I am currently discussing with various prople). Thanks. > >Danny Barrett. > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 09:03:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16945 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:03:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16941 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:03:04 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-17.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.35]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id JAA20724 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:01:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: WATER INJECTION...(was Holden...etc.) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 09:03:11 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7693$d39884a0$23198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Danny Barrett To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 2:08 AM Subject: Re: WATER INJECTION...(was Holden...etc.) >>From the things that I have been told, this is VERY true. In case you >haven't seen them, recently I have seen people's messages (either in the >archive, and/or in the recent mailings) which say that to clean your engine >out, run it at about 1500 RPM, and slowly spray in about a pint of water >down the carb throat or into the air duct of an EFI engine. This should take >about 2 to 2 and a half hours. General Motors used to have a real problem with carbon deposits in combustion chambers, and sold a solution that you added to the intake of a running engine until it stalled. Waited overnight and started the next morning, all carbon gone (most). Just use a planter mister(sprayer), and way less than a pint should do it. Ya wanna be sure not to hydralic the motor, and bend a rod. One thing to watch if your gonna run water injection full time is condensation in the oil pan. Personally, not to throw water on the idea, I never saw any marked effect at using it at cruise. You'd think if there was much to this idea someone years ago would have gotten it right. Sounds like the 1950's claims of with this solution you can run your car on water. If you use a quality detergent gas, now a days the intake tract carbon deposits are nothing like they use to be. Also watch for throttle plate icing. Wouldn't be surprised to have intake tract icing, and big chunks breaking loose. Just my two cents on things to watch for. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 09:04:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16968 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:04:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.35]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16964 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:04:48 -0400 Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8FPGa29741 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:04:05 -0400 (EDT) From: ECMnut Message-ID: <5c8ac063.354c6b46@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 09:04:05 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Blown fuel/timing maps Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm not sure who started this thread about the twin turboed Camaro, but I want a ride in it! I'm not sure how you specify it w/DFIs, but the timing & fuel tables in a stock Syclone (2 BAR) "might" look exactly this: Deg. vs MAP & RPM | 600 800 1000 1200 1400 1600 2000 2400 2800 3200 3600 4000 4400 4800 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------- 30 | 26.0 26.0 17.9 17.9 21.8 26.0 28.1 29.9 29.9 38.0 38.0 38.0 38.0 38.0 40 | 26.0 26.0 27.1 28.1 32.0 34.8 38.0 38.0 38.0 38.0 38.0 38.0 38.0 38.0 50 | 23.9 23.9 25.0 26.0 28.1 29.9 30.9 30.9 32.0 33.0 34.8 35.9 35.9 35.9 60 | 20.0 20.0 25.0 26.0 27.1 28.1 29.2 29.9 30.9 32.0 33.0 34.8 34.8 35.9 70 | 15.8 15.8 16.5 19.0 21.8 25.0 26.0 28.8 29.9 32.0 32.0 32.7 34.1 34.1 80 | 9.8 12.0 12.0 14.1 19.0 20.0 21.1 23.9 25.0 26.7 26.7 28.8 29.9 29.9 90 | 9.8 9.8 10.9 10.9 10.9 13.0 16.5 17.9 19.0 20.0 23.9 26.0 28.1 28.1 100 | 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 10.9 13.0 14.8 19.0 20.0 21.8 23.9 25.0 26.0 110 | 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 13.0 15.1 15.1 15.8 17.9 19.0 20.0 21.8 120 | 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 13.0 15.1 15.1 15.8 17.9 18.6 18.6 20.0 130 | 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 13.0 15.1 15.1 15.1 16.9 19.0 16.5 17.9 140 | 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 9.8 13.0 15.1 15.1 15.1 16.9 19.0 15.8 17.9 150 | 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 9.8 13.0 15.1 15.1 15.1 16.9 19.0 14.8 17.9 160 | 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 9.8 13.0 14.8 14.8 14.8 16.9 17.9 17.9 17.9 170 | 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 9.8 13.0 14.8 14.8 14.8 16.9 17.9 17.9 17.9 180 | 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 9.8 13.0 14.8 14.8 14.8 16.9 17.9 17.9 17.9 190 | 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 6.0 9.8 8.1 9.8 9.8 9.8 12.0 15.1 13.0 13.0 Base Pulse VE vs RPM And MAP % | 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 --------------------------------------------------------------- 800 | 34.8 35.9 35.9 35.9 36.7 36.7 36.7 37.9 38.7 1200 | 34.8 35.9 35.9 37.9 38.7 38.7 38.7 39.8 39.8 1600 | 34.8 36.7 37.9 37.9 39.8 40.6 40.6 41.8 43.0 2000 | 35.9 37.9 38.7 38.7 40.6 43.0 43.8 44.9 45.7 2400 | 36.7 38.7 39.8 40.6 43.0 43.8 45.7 46.9 47.7 2800 | 37.9 39.8 41.8 43.0 44.9 45.7 47.7 48.8 50.0 3200 | 39.8 41.8 43.8 43.8 45.7 47.7 50.0 50.8 52.0 3600 | 41.8 43.0 43.8 43.8 46.9 48.8 50.0 52.0 52.7 4000 | 43.8 43.8 44.9 44.9 47.7 50.0 52.0 52.7 54.7 Remember this is a 4.3 V6 that pulls like a jet till 4,000 RPM. Then goes to sleep. They have low perf ports & cam, and a small turbo. HTH Mike V. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 09:10:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17030 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:10:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.enter.net (root@mail.enter.net [204.170.70.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17026 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:10:44 -0400 From: rbraun@mail.enter.net Received: from rbraun (m40atwn-3-36.enter.net [204.170.16.142]) by mail.enter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13490 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805031310.JAA13490@mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 09:20:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Points ignition and EFI? (HELP!) Priority: normal References: <01BD75DF.82FE42A0@200.32.125.21.impsat.net.ar> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Why would you want to do this? There is most likely a drop in replacement for your app.. conversion should be like a 20 minute job. > > Has anybody in EFI land ever heard of a standard pts ignition system being > used with an EFI system. I am designing a system based on a Motorola HC12 > and need to know if the noise from points ignition will cause problems. I > am working with a time crunch so I don't have time to convert to > electronic igntion. What can I do to minimize this kind of noise? > > Any kind of advice would be greatly appreciated! > > Chris Vondrachek > chrisv@egr.up.edu > > > > Randy Braun '77 C-10 pick-up, DFI-Tuned Port, 350 '82 Firebird, DFI, ZZ3 '91 GTA, Stock From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 09:40:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17568 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:40:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17561 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:40:30 -0400 Received: from pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.105]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA14026 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:40:28 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 23:40:28 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805031340.XAA14026@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an >intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? Nice try, but you haven't guessed the invention... Better luck next time... >If you can find a refrigerant that will work down to about -100C or whatever >the temp of 'dry ice' is, then you can make a practical refrigerated >intercooler suitable for drag races, or longer races if you have a large dry >ice bin. > >Gwyn Reedy >Brandon, FL > >-----Original Message----- >From: Danny Barrett >To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 8:08 AM >Subject: Refrigerants > > >>Does anyone out there know anything about refrigerants? I need to know if >>there are any refrigerants (or series thereof) that will work between about >>20 deg C, and about 500 to 600 deg C. This might not sound like EFI to me, >>but I am working on an invention that has everything to do with EFI, and >the >>use of such refrigerants would make this device much better. Sorry, I can't >>disclose what the invention is at the moment, as I might want to take out a >>patent in the future (NOTE: This invention has nothing to do with water >>injection, of which I am currently discussing with various prople). Thanks. >> >>Danny Barrett. >> > > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 09:42:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17603 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:42:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17599 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:42:06 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-17.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.35]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id JAA00462 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:41:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Blown fuel/timing maps Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 09:42:28 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7699$506349c0$23198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Are you using a MAF or MAP system? If you are using a MAP (Manifold >Absolute Pressure) sensor, simply extrapolate the table up into the >100 >KPa region. I don't have any experience with MAF (Mass Air Flow) >systems, but I suspect that you would similarly extrapolate the table up into the higher airflow regions that were unreachable before. > On a MAF system there are no fuel tables, it's a calculation based on MAF readings. They might have a target O2 voltage for cruise, but that would be all I'd imagine, Anyone?. >BTW, the Holley Pro-Jection is a MAP system, and can plot up to about 130 >KPa. That means that it'll handle about a five PSI boost without >trouble. > >Ray Drouillard. > A N.A. engine runs at VE numbers in the 75-85% range, and a turbo motor can easily go 120, + to 150%VE, and it's not a very linear response, again depending on state of tune. So the closer you are the better, even to start. If he's using a 2 bar MAP then he's also looking to go to 200 K/Pa, and if a 3 bar 300K/Pa. As I recall A.S. is looking to the big HP numbers.. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 11:04:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18366 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:04:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18361 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:04:41 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo ([156.46.76.178]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19829 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 10:04:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <354C8572.26A4CB4@mwt.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 09:55:47 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: holley water injectionRe: Water Injection. What do we agree on so far? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199805030905.TAA17722@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu All I know about water injection is it works as advertised. I had a holley water injection system on a ford 390 because I was getting knock with regular gas put this unit on and the knock was gone. I used tap water . The unit had a different jet for v8 ,6,4 so I don't know if the volume of water is a big thing factor . I ran this for 5 years the only thing I would add to the unit is near out of water light. The funny thing about this car is it was the only car I owned that ran at 276,000 miles on original engine (one valve job) and was still running when sold . This puzzled me till I heard of the cleaning action of water injection from this group. If any one has the holley water injection box so I can make a similar one main thing is the orifice size for a v8 or plans to build a box I would be interested. It was the mid 80s when I had this box and was plug and play so my details on how all the parts worked was some what beyond my comprehension at that age. This is a good lesson on doing things you think will work that others think are stupid and trust me people looked at me funny when I told them I ran water injection. Steve Danny Barrett wrote: > OK Gents. This discussion has happened a few times before, if we look > in the > archives, and to what I can tell, not once has a definitive answer > been > obtained as to whether water injection would/should work in normally > aspirated engines. We should all know that it is very valuable as an > anti-knock agent in turbo/supercharged engines - it has been used for > years. > I think that we obviously have some very intelegent people here, and I > > believe that we should be able to come up with an answer to this > problem, so > that if the subject comes up again by newly registered people to this > mailing list we can give them the one true and final answer (if > possible), > and tell them to look it up on the archives (and, yes, I'm actually > the > guilty party for bring up the topic this time, as I have a certain > amount of > knowledge, but I want to know the absolute answer). > > What do we all agree on? Who agrees/disagrees with the following? > > It has been shown that the water injected will vaporise before TDC, > and > remain vaporised throughout the compression/power strokes. > > For economy and power in normally aspirated engines, to reduce the > amount of > energy lost due to latent heat of evaporation, the water should be > heated by > the exhaust manifold to say 90 deg C (194 deg F), so that it is still > a > liquid, and not simply another inert gas. > > If the anti-knock properties are needed (ie. Turbo, and Supercharged > engines), however, the water should be injected cold to make use of > the > latent heat of vaporisation (Note, this has been a known, tried and > true > method for possibly longer than many of us have been around). > > For fuel economy in normally aspirated engines, a small amount of > water may > help, but it should not be used in quantities remotely resembling > those used > in turbo/super charged engines. > > Questions yet to be answered in gaining the absolute answer: > > Are the expansion properties of steam better than those of N2, O2 (ie. > > excess O2 in the charge), CO2 and NO (produced at least in small > quantities > due to the heat of the reaction in the cylinder)? > > If so, what quantity of water, at what temperature should be injected > so > that the benefit of extra horespower (without extra fuel) is maximised > > (considering water's tendancy to "put out" the combustion process)? > > Also, If water injection (without an increase in fuel used) gives more > > power, would this equate to more fuel efficiency if your driving > habits do > not change? > > If water injection is viable (as far as increased power/efficiency is > concerned, without the use of extra fuel), how (or should) we > de-chlorinate/de-floridate the water? Should we use a vehicle mounted > charcoal filter? Or should we filter the water before it is put into > the > vehicle? > > If you have any other questions/points, feel free to add them... > > Danny Barrett. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 11:27:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18574 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:27:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18570 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:27:37 -0400 Received: from [12.64.8.146] by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA24613 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:27:06 +0000 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980503152215.00de71ac@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> X-Sender: e.schumacher@postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 08:22:15 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: eric schumacher Subject: Re: Points ignition and EFI? (HELP!) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The early VW systems had points for both the ignition and the injection. Any noise generated by arcing at the points is at least several orders of magnitude below the noise generated by a sparkplugs arcing. The underhood enviorment electrically is very severe, points are the least of your worries. At 09:20 AM 5/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >Why would you want to do this? There is most likely a drop in >replacement for your app.. conversion should be like a 20 minute >job. > >> >> Has anybody in EFI land ever heard of a standard pts ignition system being >> used with an EFI system. I am designing a system based on a Motorola HC12 >> and need to know if the noise from points ignition will cause problems. I >> am working with a time crunch so I don't have time to convert to >> electronic igntion. What can I do to minimize this kind of noise? >> >> Any kind of advice would be greatly appreciated! >> >> Chris Vondrachek >> chrisv@egr.up.edu >> >> >> >> >Randy Braun >'77 C-10 pick-up, DFI-Tuned Port, 350 >'82 Firebird, DFI, ZZ3 >'91 GTA, Stock > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 11:39:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18694 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:39:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (vcc11.vcc.bc.ca [207.102.127.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18690 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:39:14 -0400 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id IAA22250; Sun, 3 May 1998 08:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 08:39:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Water Injection. What do we agree on so far? In-Reply-To: <199805030905.TAA17722@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 3 May 1998, Danny Barrett wrote: > OK Gents. This discussion has happened a few times before, if we look in the > archives, and to what I can tell, not once has a definitive answer been > obtained as to whether water injection would/should work in normally > aspirated engines. Why not get a copy of Ricardo's High Speed Engines and you will find everything you need on this subject. Most editions [maybe all] have this information. Jim Davies From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 11:44:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18841 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:44:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from soleil.acomp.usf.edu (soleil.acomp.usf.edu [131.247.100.19]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18835 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:44:24 -0400 Received: from centauri (tampappp123.net.usf.edu [131.247.166.123]) by soleil.acomp.usf.edu (8.8.7/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA07111 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805031545.LAA07111@soleil.acomp.usf.edu> From: "Jake Lindeke" Organization: Supra Owners Group International To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 11:50:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Refrigerants Priority: normal In-reply-to: <01bd768e$6f20dc20$LocalHost@paccomm> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If it has to do with Intercooling then i'm intrested. I;t would be really cool to have the air going into my intake at freezing tempatures. --Jake Lindeke --Temple Terrace, FL. > Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an > intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? > > If you can find a refrigerant that will work down to about -100C or whatever > the temp of 'dry ice' is, then you can make a practical refrigerated > intercooler suitable for drag races, or longer races if you have a large dry > ice bin. > > Gwyn Reedy > Brandon, FL From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 13:06:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19761 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:06:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19757 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:05:58 -0400 Received: from tufts.edu (st1254.tc.tufts.edu) by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #23568) with ESMTP id <0ESE0091O4TXEQ@emerald.tufts.edu> for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 13:05:40 -0400 From: Andris Skulte Subject: Re: Blown fuel/timing maps To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <354CA3E4.70CDDC56@tufts.edu> X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <01bd7699$506349c0$23198fd1@nacelp> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks for the maps that were posted :) I've got a place to start now. I'm shooting for about 400 hp off the bat, and then 450-500 once I get it tuned and raise the boost a little. It's a MAP system (Accel DFI, w/o the wideband o2 sensor) You can program it to stay in closed loop for whatever you want. I've got it set up to be CL above 1000 rpms, and below 70% throttle. At WOT, it goes to whatever you have programmed (currently pulsewidths that give me around 750 mV throughout the rpm range). Any larger, and I droppped a few hp on the dyno. If you guys haven't seen the project, I've got it online at http://www.eecs.tufts.edu/~askulte/ttt/ttt.html. I've got Deltagate wastegates to use, so I think I'll start out w/ the 5 psi springs. Once I get the fuel curve dialed in, I'll raise the boost to 8-10 psi. I'm still on the stock iron crappy heads, stock cam (actually, half decent for a blown application...) and stock cast 9.0:! cast bottom end. I'm taking it slow since I can't afford a new motor at the beginning of this summer... Andris "my sponsors donated a case of coneshaped hats" Skulte From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 13:10:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19821 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:10:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19817 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:10:22 -0400 Received: from tufts.edu (st1254.tc.tufts.edu) by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #23568) with ESMTP id <0ESE007GU51AGD@emerald.tufts.edu> for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 13:10:04 -0400 From: Andris Skulte Subject: Re: Refrigerants To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <354CA4EC.29333D81@tufts.edu> X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <01bd768e$6f20dc20$LocalHost@paccomm> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gwyn Reedy wrote: > > Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an > intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? I don't think there are any turbochargers that heat the air up to 500 deg C... That's damn hot! I think it might be a new cooling system, so the heads are nice and cool=> run more boost, less knock, more power. Am I close? This is a neat puzzle ;) A. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 13:13:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19860 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:13:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19850 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:13:05 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yW2Mi-0001O8C; Sun, 3 May 98 13:15 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Refrigerants To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 13:15:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <199805031545.LAA07111@soleil.acomp.usf.edu> from "Jake Lindeke" at May 3, 98 11:50:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > If it has to do with Intercooling then i'm intrested. I;t would be really cool to > have the air going into my intake at freezing tempatures. I have already seen a device that refrigerates the incoming air somwhere in a magazine it does make a difference if you can keep the air at about -20 you cna tune up to 10% more power out of an engine over running air at underhood temps ~150 plus you cna run more comp and timing as well to bump it up a little more > > Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an > > intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? > > > > If you can find a refrigerant that will work down to about -100C or whatever > > the temp of 'dry ice' is, then you can make a practical refrigerated > > intercooler suitable for drag races, or longer races if you have a large dry > > ice bin. ammonia may work across these temp extremes but it is not very efficient from what I can remeber Clive From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 13:14:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19917 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:14:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19909 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:14:36 -0400 Received: from pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.105]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA01270 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:14:34 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 03:14:34 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805031714.DAA01270@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Water Injection. What do we agree on so far? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Do you know how RARE that book is? I'm sure you do... Also, from what I hear from others, it only deals with turbo/supercharged engines. We know that it is of definite use in such engines, but whether it is of use in normally aspirated engines, we do not know. Whether Ricardo knew or not, we don't know, as all we are told is about the forced aspiration engines. Also, did he use *small* amounts of water, and at what temperature? Or did he simply put it in cold? All of these are questions that need answering. I have waded my way through the archive, and the knowledge base has onle got to a certain level. It would be nice if the knowledge base was extended, no matter what the result the discussion comes up with. Simply put, there are questions being raised which have not been answered. I'm sure that there are enough people on the mailing list that have enough education in physics and chemistry to be able to find the answers to all of these questions. I am not saying that Ricardo was right, or wrong - I am saying that he found some very interesting results, and we could take the knowledge base even further. Like a pygmy standing on the shoulders of a giant - the pygmy will always see further than the giant, as he is further up. What the pygmy needs to remember is that if he always looks down at the giant, he will not even see as much as the giant, and he is worse off than if he stood on his own two feet. We have the questions, we have the ability to find the answers, so why don't we find the answers (if only the theoretical ones). If someone already has the answer (and can back it up with science), then PLEASE, let everyone know... Danny Barrett. >On Sun, 3 May 1998, Danny Barrett wrote: > >> OK Gents. This discussion has happened a few times before, if we look in the >> archives, and to what I can tell, not once has a definitive answer been >> obtained as to whether water injection would/should work in normally >> aspirated engines. > >Why not get a copy of Ricardo's High Speed Engines and you will find >everything you need on this subject. Most editions [maybe all] have this >information. > >Jim Davies > > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 13:27:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA20253 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:27:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20249 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:27:26 -0400 Received: from pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.105]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA02172 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:27:25 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 03:27:25 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805031727.DAA02172@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The thing about having "freezing" air going into your engine is that you'll end up with ice going into it (from the air's humidity). Do we really want that??? I don't think so. Besides, it ain't an intercooler (it ain't much of a "cooler" at all - at least as far as its primary intended use is concerned). Danny Barrett >If it has to do with Intercooling then i'm intrested. I;t would be really cool to >have the air going into my intake at freezing tempatures. >--Jake Lindeke >--Temple Terrace, FL. > >> Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an >> intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? >> >> If you can find a refrigerant that will work down to about -100C or whatever >> the temp of 'dry ice' is, then you can make a practical refrigerated >> intercooler suitable for drag races, or longer races if you have a large dry >> ice bin. >> >> Gwyn Reedy >> Brandon, FL > > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 13:28:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA20260 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:28:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from rgate.ricochet.net (rgate.ricochet.net [204.179.143.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20256 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:28:11 -0400 Received: from mg-20425422-46.ricochet.net (mg-20425422-46.ricochet.net [204.254.22.46]) by rgate.ricochet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18769 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 12:24:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mg-20425422-46.ricochet.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7697.956E1240@mg-20425422-46.ricochet.net>; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:30:05 -0400 Message-ID: <01BD7697.956E1240@mg-20425422-46.ricochet.net> From: Chris Conlon To: "diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: RE: water injection Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 13:06:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Zack wrote: > I think I disagree on the point of whether water injected at the > intake will stay in the liquid phase during compression. > ... > So, if we start with a charge of > 80 degree F intake air, and compress it by a factor of 8.5:1, the > temperature of the air at the end of the compression phase will be > more than 800 degree F at the end of the compression stroke. > > At 80 degrees, the vapor pressure of water is about 0.003 atm. My > steam tables only go up to 705 degrees (since that's the critical > point), at which point the vapor pressure is a whopping 218 atm. > > So... I think there's no question that if you inject water in the > intake, all of that water will have turned to steam before the > completion of the compression stroke. In the process, that I think this is close, but not quite there. The water will absorb a large amount of the heat energy due to compressing the charge, and thus the temperature rise will be less than calculated. Possibly *way* less depending on how much water. (OTOH the pressure rise will be more, due to water vapor, etc etc.) But as long as all the water is liquid before the intake valves close, and vapor after combustion, I don't think it makes a difference. (Guess I ought not nitpick.) It seems like we're looking at 2 different things. First the use of water to (inter)cool the intake charge, the goal being to get more air mass into the cylinder. The coolant water should stay liquid, as much as possible, because if it turns to steam (and expands tremendously), it'll just displace air from the cylinder. (As someone said, like adding an inert gas to the charge). Once inside the cylinder, you want the water to still be liquid, but as close to boiling as possible. This way it'll evaporate and expand, giving you the desired pressure rise, but take up a minimum of your combustion heat to do so. How to do this? Research project :) (As an aside, I wondered the other day about heat loss through the cylinder walls, and the loss of energy due to that. I have heard of ceramic coating pistons, is there anything similar that can be done to the head and cylinder walls to keep heat in the chamber and thus contributing energy to the crank? Or would this push cylinder wall temps so high that detonation would be unstoppable?) Chris C. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 14:09:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20945 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:09:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20941 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:09:48 -0400 Received: from pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.105]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA05609 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:09:46 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 04:09:46 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805031809.EAA05609@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sorry, wrong again... got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it in, and make the thing work even better..... Danny Barrett. >Gwyn Reedy wrote: >> >> Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an >> intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? > >I don't think there are any turbochargers that heat the air up to 500 >deg C... That's damn hot! I think it might be a new cooling system, so >the heads are nice and cool=> run more boost, less knock, more power. Am >I close? This is a neat puzzle ;) > >A. > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 14:17:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21034 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:17:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21030 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:17:35 -0400 Received: from pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.105]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA06302 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:17:34 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 04:17:34 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805031817.EAA06302@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu An intercooler might be a great idea, but this isn't one. Sorry guys... You'll have to guess again... Danny Barrett. >> If it has to do with Intercooling then i'm intrested. I;t would be really cool to >> have the air going into my intake at freezing tempatures. > > >I have already seen a device that refrigerates the incoming air >somwhere in a magazine >it does make a difference >if you can keep the air at about -20 you cna tune up to 10% more power >out of an engine over running air at underhood temps ~150 >plus you cna run more comp and timing as well to bump it up a little more > >> > Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an >> > intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? >> > >> > If you can find a refrigerant that will work down to about -100C or whatever >> > the temp of 'dry ice' is, then you can make a practical refrigerated >> > intercooler suitable for drag races, or longer races if you have a large dry >> > ice bin. > >ammonia may work across these temp extremes >but it is not very efficient >from what I can remeber > >Clive > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 14:39:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21486 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:39:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from uia.net (uia.net [157.22.213.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21482 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:39:45 -0400 Received: from tyan-machine (157.22.213.78) by uia.net with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0.1); Sun, 3 May 1998 11:40:13 -0700 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: RE: Refrigerants, Wide range EGO and other thoughts. Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 11:39:37 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <354CA4EC.29333D81@tufts.edu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <1317926878-19772013@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Having been led astray for the last few weeks, May I make a request? To the developer of the wide range EGO, could you E-mail me privately (or on the list). Need to know more about it. Seems a certain low fangler that I sometimes correspond with has publicly blamed me for his new toy and now we need to tune it up at WOT. Was trying to keep up, but everything got lost in a torrent of commercialism stuff. To the reverse enguneerer, rest assured that this low fangler and myself intend to use it solely on engines we build up and intend to toss it in our bag of tricks and not market it by itself for profit. It would really help us on some projects under way. Refrigerants Sounds like someone is trying to adapt the ammonia absorption cycle refrigeration system to use as an intercooler. What is interesting is that although this cycle is less "efficient" at cooling than a compressed gas cycle, it gets it's pumping energy from heat - in the case of a propane RV refrigerator from a small propane flame, or in this case from the waste heat of the exhaust. The problem is probably the exhaust temperatures raise the ammonia/water solution past the efficient working range and the gentleman is looking for another absorption cycle fluid that will work in this range. Just my uneducated, plebeian guess. On water injection, once upon a time about a hundred years before OTTO or Diesel published, a man called Watt wrote the book about water and steam. Since then, there is a whole field of engineering and science devoted to the fact that water is NOT an ideal gas and steam detests the Carnot cycle. Ricardo has been mentioned - a fine M.E. starting place - but really, not only is there a book about how water is different, but a whole damned encyclopedia. Without consulting a few chapters of this information, what is being presented is simply anal extraction - something I have been accused of and occasionally guilty of myself. Little things to keep in mind (following data is from recall - somebody buried my best reference three feet under in his reading room library - and is subject to ERROR). Water raised to aprox 705 f degrees creates steam at 3206 PSI. This is the highest temperature and pressure saturated steam can develop. Superheated (dry) steam temp pressure scales skyrocket past these numbers into unbelievablum. Keep in mind that 1000 PSI chamber pressure is probably the max that most engines ever see and then figure out the steam contribution to that number at 1800F. Then, without numbers to state exactly, my best recollection is that the state change energy in Btu's for water to change to steam is far greater that its ability to absorb heat below the state change. (Course I don't have the book handy). This implies that the water temp for water injection is almost meaningless. Also, remember the specific energy figures of fuel air. Two sets of data, one where all the energy is used (water condensing) and the one that is significantly lower - where the water is uncondensed. See Bruce Hamilton Gasoline FAQ for example. The difference is the unrecovered energy trapped in the steam. Remember that one gallon of gasoline combusted makes two gallons of uncondensed (un mechanically recovered) steam in the exhaust. Just some thoughts to stir some cells. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 14:49:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21714 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:49:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21710 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:49:32 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-18.brokersys.com [209.113.60.19]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16915 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:51:55 -0500 Message-ID: <354CB7D8.5488AF82@brokersys.com> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 13:30:48 -0500 From: Walter Petermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Noise from points ignition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am designing a system based on a Motorola HC12 >> and need to know if the noise from points ignition will cause problems. Hellow Chris, my name is Walter Petermann. I have just recently gotten an internet account and joined this discussion group. I have a home business repairing fuel injection computers for Jaguars and I have a general interest fuel injection systems along with a few years background in electronic design. I have not followed the thread of your messages to the group, but based on what I have read today, here is some input which may/may not be usefull to you. On the Jag (V12 80's) there are separate systems for the fuel injection and ignition. The fuel injection brain (ECU) uses the signal from the negative terminal of the ignition coil to generate the timing for the injectors. There are twelve injectors split into two banks of six. Every six 'ground pulses' that the ECU senses on the coil negative, it fires one bank of the six injectors. The ground pulse sensing cicuit is as follows: The negative coil terminal signal goes through a 22K resistor into both inputs of a nand/schmitt trigger gate. The output of the gate is tied directly to the microprocessor.This gives a positive pulse to the uP during the time the ignition system has the coil grounded. The inputs of the nand gate are protected by a 5.1V zener to ground, and a copacitor ( which is too small for me to read the numbers off of..) to ground. The nand gate chip is an RCA CD4093BE Hope this was helpfull, Walter From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 15:08:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA22090 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:08:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22086 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:08:57 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp33-ts2-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.82]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA18346 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:05:58 -0400 Message-ID: <354CC323.135A@huron.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 15:18:59 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: testing, testing, 123 References: <1317926878-19772013@uia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Am i getting out? do not bother answering - I f I cannot read this on the NG, your replies won't reach me either. Thanks. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 15:19:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA22270 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:19:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22264 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:19:48 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yW4Le-0001OEC; Sun, 3 May 98 15:22 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Refrigerants To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 15:22:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <199805031809.EAA05609@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> from "Danny Barrett" at May 4, 98 04:09:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Sorry, wrong again... > got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake > air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it > in, and make the thing work even better..... fuel cooling I have seen this done with the sameunit I previously described oil temp contorl could also be done or maybe even ex gas temp control Clive > > Danny Barrett. > > >Gwyn Reedy wrote: > >> > >> Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an > >> intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? > > > >I don't think there are any turbochargers that heat the air up to 500 > >deg C... That's damn hot! I think it might be a new cooling system, so > >the heads are nice and cool=> run more boost, less knock, more power. Am > >I close? This is a neat puzzle ;) > > > >A. > > > > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 15:32:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA22507 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:32:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22503 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:32:00 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp6-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.55]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA18996 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:29:01 -0400 Message-ID: <354CC841.16F3@huron.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 15:42:03 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Garfield - please reply here. References: <354CC70E.3F2C@huron.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hate to use bandwidth etc for non EFI use, but Garfield, if you are out there, I cannot reach you at pilgrimhouse, or the airsig. I can reach DIY EFI and I know you are on here, so please reply - I talmost appears there may be a problem at your end, As I have verified I can hit DIY EFI and cannot even ping pi;grimhouse or interstice. To the rest of you guys out there, sorry about the intrusion and the "noise" -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 16:00:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23028 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:00:31 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23024 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:00:29 -0400 Received: from DemonTSi@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8DMGa03032 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:59:49 -0400 (EDT) From: DemonTSi Message-ID: <71470b3.354cccb6@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 15:59:49 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Refrigerants Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 98-05-03 11:53:02 EDT, jlindeke@bsfh.org writes: << If it has to do with Intercooling then i'm intrested. I;t would be really cool to have the air going into my intake at freezing tempatures. --Jake Lindeke --Temple Terrace, FL. > Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an > intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? > > If you can find a refrigerant that will work down to about -100C or whatever > the temp of 'dry ice' is, then you can make a practical refrigerated > intercooler suitable for drag races, or longer races if you have a large dry > ice bin. >> You should be able to take methanol down to about -100C. But I think you need a very large sized refrigeration unit to do so. I had once considered using an intercooler made of a polymer (which kind I'm not sure...but it'd be a foam) allowing you to use liquid nitrogen as a coolant. So imagine a liquid-to-air intercooler without the hassle of a coolant circulation system. Just fill up the intercooler's tank with liquid nitrogen and leave it there for a month or two before refilling... As for chilling intake air...I was always afraid of the damage that could result if the intake piping started developing precipitation and water entered the engine...or would that be a problem? Van <---hasn't posted to list in about a year... :) From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 16:03:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23046 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:03:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.36]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23042 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:03:37 -0400 Received: from DemonTSi@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8REVa15187 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:02:33 -0400 (EDT) From: DemonTSi Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 16:02:33 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Refrigerants Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 98-05-03 14:23:18 EDT, you write: << Sorry, wrong again... got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it in, and make the thing work even better..... >> Is it related to the exhaust then...? Van From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 16:26:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23559 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:26:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.37]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23554 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:26:23 -0400 Received: from DemonTSi@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8LQa025732 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:25:47 -0400 (EDT) From: DemonTSi Message-ID: <1dcef5bf.354cd2cc@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 16:25:47 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Refrigerants and turbocharging a carbeurated car... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 98-05-03 15:31:23 EDT, you write: << fuel cooling I have seen this done with the sameunit I previously described oil temp contorl could also be done or maybe even ex gas temp control >> Now there's an interesting idea...and assuming that you have a fuel system (injectors, regulator, etc...) capable of handling super-cooled fuel, how much of a gain can you expect from using cold fuel? I also had a quick question to ask the list...about turbocharging a carbeurated car. I was considering throwing a turbo on to a datsun U20 engine (from a 2000 roadster) and running a blow-through setup. What types of things would I have to take into consideration as far as the fuel regulation and sealing of the intake is concerned? I drew a quick sketch of my idea that can be see at: http://members.aol.com/idiscool/turbo.jpg It's a simple, non-intercooled setup that would probably be limited to no more than 5-7psi...I think I'm also going to put on a thicker head gasker to lower compression...just to be safe. Any help/advice/info/comments would be great. Thanks a lot...! Van From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 16:34:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23684 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:34:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23680 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:34:31 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA25022 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:34:30 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Return of the diy_EGOmeter (YES, it's finally ALIVE!!) Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 13:35:15 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <355cc4ac.10481718@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19980419203714.0079bc60@mail.qonline.com.au> <35390373.67DC0858@mwt.net> <3.0.5.32.19980418005125.007a5c90@mail.qonline.com.au> <01BD6940.54702120@pjaramaz> <3.0.5.32.19980418005125.007a5c90@mail.qonline.com.au> <199804181815.LAA19696@mail.wgn.net> <3.0.5.32.19980423122851.007fb100@unix.sbu.ac.uk> <3.0.5.32.19980424103925.007fe180@unix.sbu.ac.uk> <354fbddd.37485546@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> In-Reply-To: <354fbddd.37485546@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id QAA23681 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 3 May 1998 11:39:37 -0700, "Robert Harris" wrote: >Having been led astray for the last few weeks, May I make a request? To the >developer of the wide range EGO, could you E-mail me privately (or on the >list). Need to know more about it. Seems a certain low fangler that I >sometimes correspond with has publicly blamed me for his new toy and now we >need to tune it up at WOT. Oh sire, wherein have you been led astray? Doth make for such a wide and pithy lament, I know not what to reply. I trust t'weren't me that Pied Piped you, since I tain't been here for the last few weeks. B) OK, noughOdat nonsense. Time for another UPDATE, anyhoo. We've been hoping for a couple weeks now to just turn the ole corner our diyEGOmeter project has been hiding behind, and before I worry anyone, NO, it's NOT "Houston, we have a problem", it's more like "Houston, I can't seem to get my socks on". The circuit is all done, dressed up, but with no place to go. Here's what's goin on. Behind the scenes, Frank and I have been trying to build the "DIY Standard Mark I Dragon Belch" device, an eXhaust gas simulator idea Frank came up with, to make a burner pipe with O2 & T-couple bungs along the length, and fired with a propane burner of goodly proportion, allowing us a controllable range of mixture and temps for testing. NO, it ain't gazolini-fired, but since we only wanna compare a known good EGOmeter to our diy gizmo, I'd be to purpose. Here's the deal, on which we have both agreed to withstand all arguments should there be huesNcrys from the galleries. We are NOT gonna release the schematic until we've had a go at testing the diyEgor side-by-side the NTK standard one that Frank has, and run the diyThang through sweeps of both rich and lean, to make sure it works OK and we don't infact have anything unhappy to report back to Houston. The reason for the extra caution is that NO MATTER how many people say, "Oh, well, just publish the schematic and let us have a try", the fact remains that you would HAVE to expense the $130someodd buckeroos to buy the sensor, and then IF we found the circuit had some problem, our name's would be mud, bud. So even if you say publically or privately ad infinitum, that you're in such a rush that you can't wait till we test the thang to be sure, well, just save yer breathNfingertips, cuz on this one we've sworn amongst these Two Musketeers that we ain't gonna budge. So what's the holdup? Well, we've both tried to build one of these Dragon Belches, and it looks like the test apparatus might just be a harder design problem than the dang meter itself! Hee, what a hoot. I don't know exactly what kinda burner Frank tried, but I do know he had some pals at UofMich in the Glassblowers Lab have a look at his Belch to see what the problem was, but I got a commercial venturi burner used for building kilns and small foundry furnaces, and BOTH of us can't get the required range of mixture. I guess it's hard to make propane flames burn "rich"? Dunno. So now we're considering other options for testing (one of which is obviously we could put two opposed bungs in a stock auto exhaust, and detune the engine to do our testing), and we WILL get there soon, but the whole thing's kinda been stretched outta proportion, given how FAST the design of the circuit came together in comparison. Anyway, things ARE moving along pretty decent (compare this to how long it took to get the 332 stuff together... I know, an unfair comparison, this circuit is a fly-spec compared to the 332 stuff, but you see me point?), and all I can say at this point is, there's JUST the final testing to do, and then it'll be "soup". So that's not such a daunting obstacle before us, and I trust we CAN all keep our shirts on until that's done. OK, end of update. Now, on to Robert's hint that he's in urgent need of more info cuz he plans to use it in a closed-loop WOT setup. Mind you, as we've said before, I'm gonna release the schematic for the basic "instrument" if you will, that hopefully will produce an output curve of V vrs. O2 very similar to the NTK box, since it passes the uncooked "Ion Pump Current" turned into a voltage range from 0-5V on out as an output. Beyond THAT, everyone with their own particular interests, be it "meters", or data-logging meters, or closed-loop engine managers like Robert wants to do, will need to layer ontop of this basic "instrument", their own designs to accomplish their particular task. For the time being, I would GUESS (again, since this ain't my primary "locus of hocus pocus", exactly, I can only guestimate) that all you need do for preparation to include the basic instrument in a closed loop controller scheme is plan for the code to read the output V from Egor, and map that to some value of AFR/Lambda. Beyond that basic concept, if one wants to use a conventionally coded ECM that's looking for "stoich-crossings", and your idea is to be able to "dial in" a particular target AFR, this also seems quite easy, just a simple comparator with a tiny bit of hysteresis to keep it from oscillating, compare the basic Egor's output to your desired setpoint, and you'll either get a rich or lean output from the comparator as your "pretend" O2 sensor output, sorta re-defining stoich if you will. [BTW, this concept wasn't my idea, of course. Someone on the group mentioned it in passing one day, and I don't even remember who, if it matters to anyone. Just don't intend this to make it sound like I thot that one up, thas all]. I know that Bruce has some slightly more elaborate plans to use the setpoint AFR idea, along with normal ECM control during lower power demands on the engine. I mention this just to say that there are all kinds of variations on a theme possible, but all yous guys need to know at this point in your scheming, is that Egor will put out either 2.5 or 3.0V at stoich (you can choose; the NTK centers stoich around 3.0V cuz that gives them a more even range of AFRs on both lean and rich sides), but centering the output at 2.5V makes the circuit fewer parts and the voltage references more solid. Beyond that, it's just a signal that goes from 2.5/3.0 up to about 4.75V on the lean side, and down to near 0.25V on the rich side. The curves on either side are fairly linear, but each has a different slope, so for "measurement" purposes, you will need a map or table of some sort, if you're using a micro. For those who want to build a simple analog/led hand-held meter without the complexity of a micro, I'll supply a two-piece linearizer circuit for ya. I DON'T think we should build that into the basic Egor (we're not), like Horiba has done, because any time you have linearization, you have temperature coefficient errors from the scaling resistors, and if you're using a micro, YOU don't need no stinking linearizer, nor the errors they can introduce, both from the linearization itself, and the temp errors. Thas why that decision. OK, that's probably more than enough outta me for now. We'll keep ya posted on how the testing's going. And I'll try to give ya updates at least once a week now, until the Fat Lady sings. She'll be comin round the mountain... (hmm, kinda mixing my music metphors there, eh?). Cheers maties, Gar From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 16:46:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23892 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:46:03 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23888 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:46:01 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA25251 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:46:01 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Garfield - please reply here. Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 13:46:45 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <3561d6c2.15111796@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <354CC70E.3F2C@huron.net> <354CC841.16F3@huron.net> In-Reply-To: <354CC841.16F3@huron.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id QAA23889 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 03 May 1998 15:42:03 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: >Hate to use bandwidth etc for non EFI use, but Garfield, if you are out >there, I cannot reach you at pilgrimhouse, or the airsig. I can reach >DIY EFI and I know you are on here, so please reply - I talmost appears >there may be a problem at your end, As I have verified I can hit DIY EFI >and cannot even ping pi;grimhouse or interstice. > >To the rest of you guys out there, sorry about the intrusion and the >"noise" Yeah, I think you should be ashamed of yourself. Now lemme see, what can we have him do for us whilst he's overcome with guilt. Heh. Anyway, reading you 5 by 5, OVER. Both the P'house & Interstice are fine and we're getting posts and email inNout. My guess is when they brought your dead server back to life this morning, they managled something to do with DNS. It may be workin some, but it don't look like it's operating on all cylinders just yet. Just me dos centavos, on that one. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 18:25:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24840 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:25:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24836 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:25:11 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yW7F4-0001OKC; Sun, 3 May 98 18:28 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Return of the diy_EGOmeter (YES, it's finally ALIVE!!) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:28:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <355cc4ac.10481718@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> from "garfield@pilgrimhouse.com" at May 3, 98 01:35:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Behind the scenes, Frank and I have been trying to build the "DIY > Standard Mark I Dragon Belch" device, an eXhaust gas simulator idea > Frank came up with, to make a burner pipe with O2 & T-couple bungs along > the length, and fired with a propane burner of goodly proportion, > allowing us a controllable range of mixture and temps for testing. NO, > it ain't gazolini-fired, but since we only wanna compare a known good > EGOmeter to our diy gizmo, I'd be to purpose. why not use a small gas engine for the belchometer you can rig a custom exhaust in a matter of hours to fit a 5-10hp waterpump engine and tinker with the carb adj to test mixtures most of these engines will run from 20-10:1 on mixture and you cna get this control level at the carb adj screw this would be the range we would want to look at anyways if you need more heat in the exhaust build a double wall pipe and heat the otehr chamber with the outpu from your propane burner Clive From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 18:40:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25054 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:40:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.17]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA25050 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:40:47 -0400 Received: from battlezone.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@battlezone.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.96]) by berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id SAA07267 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (fparker@localhost) by battlezone.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id SAA06448 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:40:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank F Parker X-Sender: fparker@battlezone.rs.itd.umich.edu To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: diy_EGOmeter, test jig In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > why not use a small gas engine for the belchometer > you can rig a custom exhaust in a matter of hours to fit > a 5-10hp waterpump engine and tinker with the carb adj to test mixtures > most of these engines will run from 20-10:1 on mixture > and you cna get this control level at the carb adj screw > this would be the range we would want to look at anyways > Clive > That is a good idea. I have a 8hp Kohler 4 stroke used in Troy Built tiller that might work pretty good for that. I will see if I can tig something up to try. frank parker From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 19:23:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25564 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:23:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25558 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:22:39 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA27919 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:22:40 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Return of the diy_EGOmeter (YES, it's finally ALIVE!!) Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 16:23:24 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <3571f877.23740500@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id TAA25559 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 3 May 1998 18:28:17 -0400 (EDT), "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" wrote: >why not use a small gas engine for the belchometer >you can rig a custom exhaust in a matter of hours to fit >a 5-10hp waterpump engine and tinker with the carb adj to test mixtures >most of these engines will run from 20-10:1 on mixture >and you cna get this control level at the carb adj screw >this would be the range we would want to look at anyways That's a nice idea. Wish I or Frank has such a lil beasty to use as a lab rat. Sorta a Baby Dragon Burp generator. I'm a townie, and all my gardening machinery is electric, including my lawnmower! BTW, lest this thread spawn a whole lotta suggestions on how we might do the testing, lemme just tell ya I think we've got that taken care of. It's just likely to take a couple more weeks. I just got a note from Frank, and it sounds like one solution IS on the horizon. We'll keep ya posted. I have a theory on why we had such trouble with the propane; my guess is it's not the fuel, of course, but the type of burner. Most of them operate on a venturi that has a sorta automatic metering built into the fact that the pressure of the gas determines the induced airflow in the venturi, so it's kinda hard to vary the AFR very much, you reduce the amount of gas, and you reduce the amount of air. Course they do have provision for adjusting the opening by which air enters the venturi, but to a large extent, if you increase the vacuum in the venturi, that just increases the velocity of the air thru the inlet; maybe OK for tweaking, but not the best method for effecting *large* swings in mixture. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 19:24:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25589 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:24:47 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25585 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:24:46 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (slip129-37-149-132.on.ca.ibm.net [129.37.149.132]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA26658 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:21:48 -0400 Message-ID: <354CFF23.2704@huron.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 19:34:59 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Refrigerants References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu DemonTSi wrote: > > In a message dated 98-05-03 14:23:18 EDT, you write: > > << Sorry, wrong again... > got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake > air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it > in, and make the thing work even better..... >> > > Is it related to the exhaust then...? > > Van Likely something esoteric like cryogenic natural gas injection - otherwise known as liquid phase natural gas injection. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 20:43:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26381 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:43:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from online.no (pilt.online.no [193.212.1.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26377 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:43:10 -0400 Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti34a06-0019.dialup.online.no [130.67.65.147]) by online.no (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00908 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:42:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199805040042.CAA00908@online.no> From: "Espen Hilde" To: Subject: Re: Refrigerants Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 02:38:25 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ---------- > From: Danny Barrett > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Refrigerants > Date: 3. mai 1998 20:17 > > An intercooler might be a great idea, but this isn't one. Sorry guys... > You'll have to guess again... > ok I will try:I have one idee my self, to cool the exhaust before it enters the turbo charger.It could be a way of widening the dynamic range of the turbine, and lower the exhaust backpressure.A kind of boost control, without wastgate. I thought of spraying water into the exhaust manifold. Espen Hilde From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 21:01:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA26574 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:01:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26564 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:00:45 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Mon, 04 May 98 11:02:22 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD774B.EAEE9A00@PJARAMAZ >; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:00:58 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD774B.EAEE9A00@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Refrigerants Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:00:57 +1000 Encoding: 48 TEXT, 55 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Try a Peltier effect cell - used in those cheap KMart cigarette lighter powered coolers. Problem may be efficiency, such that the power require to run it would load the alternator and negate any power benefits. ---------- From: Gwyn Reedy Sent: Sunday, May 03, 1998 10:24 PM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Refrigerants Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? If you can find a refrigerant that will work down to about -100C or whatever the temp of 'dry ice' is, then you can make a practical refrigerated intercooler suitable for drag races, or longer races if you have a large dry ice bin. Gwyn Reedy Brandon, FL -----Original Message----- From: Danny Barrett To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 8:08 AM Subject: Refrigerants >Does anyone out there know anything about refrigerants? I need to know if >there are any refrigerants (or series thereof) that will work between about >20 deg C, and about 500 to 600 deg C. This might not sound like EFI to me, >but I am working on an invention that has everything to do with EFI, and the >use of such refrigerants would make this device much better. Sorry, I can't >disclose what the invention is at the moment, as I might want to take out a >patent in the future (NOTE: This invention has nothing to do with water >injection, of which I am currently discussing with various prople). Thanks. > >Danny Barrett. > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(CH!`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M`' ``0```!$```!213H@4F5FSCC.1'1OKL`0 5?*F\``!X`'@P!````!0```%-- M5% `````'@`?# $````9````<&IAU" `P`'$/ $```>``@0`0```&4```!44EE!4$5,5$E%4D5&1D5# M5$-%3$PM55-%1$E.5$A/4T5#2$5!4$M-05)40TE'05)%5%1%3$E'2%1%4E!/ M5T52141#3T],15)34%)/0DQ%34U!64)%149&24-)14Y#62Q354-(``````(! M"1 !````/04``#D%``!&"0``3%I&=#(U-0* M"H$-L0M@;O!G,3 S%" +"A+R# $"8P! (%1R>2!AH"!096QT")$@#<$;!9 % M0&,;4 ,@+2!U"1'P9" +@"!T:&\#$? <(&AE87 @2V9-"L <$6EG"L 2`'0U M'6!L'E!H'K %P'!O/G<$D!S!!: &\ 200 GP8WFP+"!S=1&P'1%A!4 7'2 =8!]C(!8`<75IJQ8`'1!O(U!U`Z!I M!4#:=PA@;!S0%9!A'- BPGL'0!\A;B*0!;$`L0!P&P`C!"$P M)F ](8!T($$*A0J+'N Q.((P`M%I+3$T- WPYPS0*?,+63$V"J #8!ZP?1P! M+2P7"H*Y8,@B!'=\IY`Z!2">!D>2R_+A0">A&4 R+@$)\&4 20`' GT"@?*2/\,S8JEQ0B# $R]PA@)C#[!" >X&LE M42-10B4>L!S27Q\A'^0CT@> (%!7(H)D_2/P>0A@'" '0 ,@`' *A?]'>@:0 M(K(CL00`)E C\ )@SR,3(I !D!V!9#\3DD@')K2.%W'0$C\ &@1PA@*_$9(#!#( 6Q=WDB@65V M!) *A2+"'K!M91W ;TL0)V0:\2&09?XG2X$B`"+!`Z!.Y@# 1E/_*Y `T!MP M26%&FTG?!< B(#\D4 &@(!!/4 6Q5+!A9_\C4 #0!Y B``6Q%9 9`",R?UJ" M2O))(A' 4T ;$0M@0WG-:0$U +'DNM$0`<";A9D(*P!Z"(#PUP&117_T"4$ ? M8#S@5' A@3T@4C"&82! /4$N874^"H4!.6)$25E?149)_SO?/.=E`&??/'YG M%F0P'K!'/^ UGS:B.#HP-L!!'S=6/W="#T,7"H4^1&^_!Y$FT0(@'6!2(DLT M:TO ?P?@)M$=( N 6E!2!$_9<_U,X$DF41S!(^%S,P:0<5;/2S0><2;#='H@ M* 6Q$?!O"($$($LS5' I4(XA,'1_'X!5H5(#<58!T#M0)G @[D,B`"8B4@0U M*9 CTD0PVWPE(%!4/* $(&T>\DNQO05 =`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``,Q%V ` end From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 21:06:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA26637 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:06:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26630 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:05:56 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Mon, 04 May 98 11:06:27 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD774C.7D02D780@PJARAMAZ >; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:05:03 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD774C.7D02D780@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Refrigerants Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:05:02 +1000 Encoding: 37 TEXT, 46 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu My bid....... Peltier effect cells cooling fuel? Just kidding :-) Peter ---------- From: Danny Barrett Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 4:09 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Refrigerants Sorry, wrong again... got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it in, and make the thing work even better..... Danny Barrett. >Gwyn Reedy wrote: >> >> Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an >> intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? > >I don't think there are any turbochargers that heat the air up to 500 >deg C... That's damn hot! I think it might be a new cooling system, so >the heads are nice and cool=> run more boost, less knock, more power. Am >I close? This is a neat puzzle ;) > >A. > > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@,!`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\MJOAVO0$>`' ``0```!$```!213H@4F5FSSC.1'1OKL`0 5?*F\``!X`'@P!````!0```%-- M5% `````'@`?# $````9````<&IA``@0`0```&4```!-64))1%!%3%1)15)%1D9% M0U1#14Q,4T-/3TQ)3D=&545,/TI54U1+241$24Y'.BTI4$5415(M+2TM+2TM M+2TM1E)/33I$04Y.64)!4E)%5%1314Y4.DU/3D1!62Q-05DP-"PQ``````(! M"1 !````C0,``(D#``!P!@``3%I&=:HBLYG_``H!#P(5`J0#Y 7K`H,`4!,# M5 (`8V@*P'-E=.XR!@`&PP*#,@/&!Q,"@[HS$PU]"H (SPG9.Q7_>#(U-0* M"H$-L0M@;O!G,3 S%" +"A+R# $&8P! !=!Y(&)I9 XN&T0*A0J%4&5L=%T( MD2 -P060!4!C'*!LCP0@!: &\ N 9R!F"E!$;#\;O$IU(CHM M*1N^=(\$D!N\"HL>$#$X, +1X&DM,30T#? ,T"03>0M9,38*H -@(9 =42U? M)C<*AR3K## EMD8#83JG)SXEM@R"($0`<&X:\/Y""L 6``) )M\G[09@`C + M*1\J*TT"(&1A>2PC!= P(" P-#! ,3F .3@@-#HP.1-PYDTKSR?M5&\N#RHK M(!!D>5\-P&E ->$90#("+@GP9RYO:&EOFBT?L&$AD#: 9'4QKW$LWG5B:AU! M,\\J*U+.93H@/ `#4&EG!) `<,QT9%XD7P M>&%D%5J!I!%TA8`0U $(/='H!L`%9!W'.$W0 &0$;"5 M"8 _$W @);!E+4.TG1ZF/E#F2J!"L&XG!4"_1\)-D%E4"L!442LA= AP_P;@ M$;(\D00@1\!6L4F175*C5%%'`"!U<$)R-2.P=U#F#; >0$,;03.05J$GFP0@ M,!!M`Z!*,'0A2I'O771"\$Q@/(!H!4!.`%1A)FX'T1WF(]4O!R4]!,8 6P1@"]!N!O'[ P0$/@!!%K1Z!L8VLP M0&C#<%HR1R%M_5QX8Q60$?!;`&)06;%9L4-DHE:Q<'5Z>D/@(/8[((9<9T$; MIEQG(<\]KR\9VR6V"H45(0!S\ ````,`$! ``````P`1$ ,```! ```#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P`` "^(-V ` end From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 21:09:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA26708 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:09:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR05 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.177]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26703 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:09:53 -0400 Received: from default - 208.254.255.151 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:09:05 -0700 Message-ID: <016901bd76f9$6ff67900$97fffed0@default> From: "David" To: Subject: Re: 101 Stuff Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:10:31 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Your prices seem high. The local pick it yourself charges $ 25.00 for the ECU and $ 5.00 to 10.00 for the harness depending who is collecting money that day. David -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 2:07 AM Subject: Re: 101 Stuff |Bruce Plecan wrote: |> |> We here at CSH., HQ., are experiencing a technical problem. |> While slightly off list, the edge is blurring here between personal |> and 101 projects. Anyway, we need a couple things. 1. a set |> of ecm connectors like used on the 747's (it used two connectors), |> 2. a set off a 730 type ecm (it had three connectors), with like a |> foot (preferably more) of wire on them for doing some bench work. |> 3. Then a entire harness outta like a 90-91 2.8 Celebrity, or any other |> 1227730 ecm equipped car. Not looking for freebies, just resonable |> priced ones. |> Nor a worry mate. |> Bruce | | |What's reasonable? Local bone yard sells harnesses for $50, |and ECM for $50. Can maybe get both for $75, but seems high |to me. If interested, I'll make some calls. | |Shannen | From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 21:33:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA27173 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:33:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27162 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:33:01 -0400 Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8UUKa17470 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:32:17 +2000 (EDT) From: ECMnut Message-ID: <13a5f404.354d1aa2@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 21:32:17 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Blown fuel/timing maps Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 98-05-03 13:13:57 EDT, you write: << I've got Deltagate wastegates to use, so I think I'll start out w/ the 5 psi springs. Once I get the fuel curve dialed in, I'll raise the boost to 8-10 psi. I'm still on the stock iron crappy heads, stock cam (actually, half decent for a blown application...) and stock cast 9.0:! cast bottom end. I'm taking it slow since I can't afford a new motor at the beginning of this summer... >> Andris, Does this setup have a knock sensor? Mike V From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 22:20:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27925 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:20:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27921 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:20:16 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA21908 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:20:14 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:20:14 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040220.MAA21908@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: RE: Refrigerants, Wide range EGO and other thoughts. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Some interesting thoughts here - I'll have to re-read this when I have the time (ie. about the water injection). As for refrigerants, I am intending to extract heat from the exhaust, but not for an intercooler - the only thing I'll tell you is that I intend to "recycle" otherwise wasted heat energy. As for detail - You guys will simply have to wait... >Refrigerants > >Sounds like someone is trying to adapt the ammonia absorption cycle >refrigeration system to use as an intercooler. What is interesting is that >although this cycle is less "efficient" at cooling than a compressed gas >cycle, it gets it's pumping energy from heat - in the case of a propane RV >refrigerator from a small propane flame, or in this case from the waste heat >of the exhaust. The problem is probably the exhaust temperatures raise the >ammonia/water solution past the efficient working range and the gentleman is >looking for another absorption cycle fluid that will work in this range. >Just my uneducated, plebeian guess. > >On water injection, once upon a time about a hundred years before OTTO or >Diesel published, a man called Watt wrote the book about water and steam. >Since then, there is a whole field of engineering and science devoted to the >fact that water is NOT an ideal gas and steam detests the Carnot cycle. >Ricardo has been mentioned - a fine M.E. starting place - but really, not >only is there a book about how water is different, but a whole damned >encyclopedia. Without consulting a few chapters of this information, what >is being presented is simply anal extraction - something I have been accused >of and occasionally guilty of myself. > >Little things to keep in mind (following data is from recall - somebody >buried my best reference three feet under in his reading room library - and >is subject to ERROR). > >Water raised to aprox 705 f degrees creates steam at 3206 PSI. This is the >highest temperature and pressure saturated steam can develop. Superheated >(dry) steam temp pressure scales skyrocket past these numbers into >unbelievablum. Keep in mind that 1000 PSI chamber pressure is probably the >max that most engines ever see and then figure out the steam contribution to >that number at 1800F. > >Then, without numbers to state exactly, my best recollection is that the >state change energy in Btu's for water to change to steam is far greater >that its ability to absorb heat below the state change. (Course I don't >have the book handy). This implies that the water temp for water injection >is almost meaningless. Also, remember the specific energy figures of fuel >air. Two sets of data, one where all the energy is used (water condensing) >and the one that is significantly lower - where the water is uncondensed. >See Bruce Hamilton Gasoline FAQ for example. The difference is the >unrecovered energy trapped in the steam. > >Remember that one gallon of gasoline combusted makes two gallons of >uncondensed (un mechanically recovered) steam in the exhaust. Just some >thoughts to stir some cells. > > > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 22:23:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27947 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:23:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27943 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:23:15 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA22729 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:22:49 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:22:49 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040222.MAA22729@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sorry, once agian, good idea, but not what I'm doing.... Danny Barrett. >> Sorry, wrong again... >> got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake >> air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it >> in, and make the thing work even better..... > >fuel cooling >I have seen this done with the sameunit I previously described >oil temp contorl could also be done >or maybe even ex gas temp control > >Clive > >> >> Danny Barrett. >> >> >Gwyn Reedy wrote: >> >> >> >> Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an >> >> intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? >> > >> >I don't think there are any turbochargers that heat the air up to 500 >> >deg C... That's damn hot! I think it might be a new cooling system, so >> >the heads are nice and cool=> run more boost, less knock, more power. Am >> >I close? This is a neat puzzle ;) >> > >> >A. >> > >> > >> > > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 22:25:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28001 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:25:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27996 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:25:20 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA23494 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:25:17 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:25:17 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040225.MAA23494@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Perhaps.... >In a message dated 98-05-03 14:23:18 EDT, you write: > ><< Sorry, wrong again... > got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake > air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it > in, and make the thing work even better..... >> > >Is it related to the exhaust then...? > >Van > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 22:28:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28101 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:28:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28097 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:28:19 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA24369 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:28:19 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:28:19 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040228.MAA24369@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu *Interesting* idea, but still not what I'm doing... >DemonTSi wrote: >> >> In a message dated 98-05-03 14:23:18 EDT, you write: >> >> << Sorry, wrong again... >> got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake >> air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it >> in, and make the thing work even better..... >> >> >> Is it related to the exhaust then...? >> >> Van >Likely something esoteric like cryogenic natural gas injection - >otherwise known as liquid phase natural gas injection. >-- > _/\_ > --|-----([])-----|-- > S 0/ \0 B > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > E-Mail service is back to normal > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > OR >Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the >spammers!!! >It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of >Turkeys!!! > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 22:32:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28217 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:32:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28213 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:32:14 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA25643 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:32:13 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:32:13 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040232.MAA25643@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu No, wrong again. HOWEVER..... To increase the efficiency of the turbo, you could use part of my invention to *decrease* the temperature at the *exhaust* end of the turbo, and *increase* it at the *intake* end of the turbo... Increases thermal efficiency - Nice one... >---------- >> From: Danny Barrett >> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Subject: Re: Refrigerants >> Date: 3. mai 1998 20:17 >> >> An intercooler might be a great idea, but this isn't one. Sorry guys... >> You'll have to guess again... >> >ok I will try:I have one idee my self, to cool the exhaust before it enters >the turbo >charger.It could be a way of widening the dynamic range of the turbine, and >lower the exhaust backpressure.A kind of boost control, without wastgate. >I thought of spraying water into the exhaust manifold. >Espen Hilde > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 22:33:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28272 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:33:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.arlec.com.au (mail.arlec.com.au [203.36.152.195]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28264 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:33:42 -0400 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Mon, 04 May 1998 13:27:59 +1000 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from default (192.1.8.200::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.6); Mon, 04 May 1998 13:27:59 +1000 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:27:55 +0800 Message-ID: <01BD7758.10B27480.dzorde@soanar.com.au> From: Dan Zorde To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Water Injection. What do we agree on so far? Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:27:54 +0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 26 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I remember my grandad telling me they used to use carbonated mineral water when de-coking the engines, apparently this worked much better as plain water tended to stall the engine. Dan dzorde@soanar.com.au -----Original Message----- From: Jim Davies [SMTP:jimd@vcc.bc.ca] Sent: Sunday, 03 May, 1998 11:39 PM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Water Injection. What do we agree on so far? On Sun, 3 May 1998, Danny Barrett wrote: > OK Gents. This discussion has happened a few times before, if we look in the > archives, and to what I can tell, not once has a definitive answer been > obtained as to whether water injection would/should work in normally > aspirated engines. Why not get a copy of Ricardo's High Speed Engines and you will find everything you need on this subject. Most editions [maybe all] have this information. Jim Davies From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 22:36:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28408 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:36:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28404 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:36:43 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA27059 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:36:43 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:36:43 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040236.MAA27059@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: RE: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Just had this guess... Sorry... Not what I'm doing... Nice try though. Just a thought... isn't it interesting how if you say you have a "secret," that you have to keep to yourself for now, everyone seems to try to guess what it is..... Danny Barrett. >My bid....... > >Peltier effect cells cooling fuel? > >Just kidding :-) > >Peter > > >---------- >From: Danny Barrett >Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 4:09 AM >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: Refrigerants > >Sorry, wrong again... >got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake >air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it >in, and make the thing work even better..... > >Danny Barrett. > >>Gwyn Reedy wrote: >>> >>> Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an >>> intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? >> >>I don't think there are any turbochargers that heat the air up to 500 >>deg C... That's damn hot! I think it might be a new cooling system, so >>the heads are nice and cool=> run more boost, less knock, more power. Am >>I close? This is a neat puzzle ;) >> >>A. >> >> > > > >begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT >M>)\^(@,!`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` >M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ >MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` >M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO >M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E >M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E >M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` >M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\MM961U)P`"`0LP`0```"<```!33510.D1)65]%1DE 149),S,R+D5.1RY/2$E/ >M+5-4051%+D5$50```P``.0`````+`$ Z`0````(!]@\!````! ````````*< >M2 $$@ $`$0```%)%.B!2969R:6=EM``4``@`!`/$``2" `P`.````S@<%``0`"P`$`!L``0`)`0$)@ $`(0```#-" >M-T(Q03E",SE%,T0Q,3%"14)",# T,# U-48R039&`#0'`0.0!@`M``L`(P```````P`F```````+`"D```````,`+@```````P`V``````! `#D` >MX"6>JOAVO0$>`' ``0```!$```!213H@4F5FM````%@````&]=OBJGIL:>SSC.1'1OKL`0 5?*F\``!X`'@P!````!0```%-- >M5% `````'@`?# $````9````<&IAM``,`!A!@WV?4`P`'$(P"```>``@0`0```&4```!-64))1%!%3%1)15)%1D9% >M0U1#14Q,4T-/3TQ)3D=&545,/TI54U1+241$24Y'.BTI4$5415(M+2TM+2TM >M+2TM1E)/33I$04Y.64)!4E)%5%1314Y4.DU/3D1!62Q-05DP-"PQ``````(! >M"1 !````C0,``(D#``!P!@``3%I&=:HBLYG_``H!#P(5`J0#Y 7K`H,`4!,# >M5 (`8V@*P'-E=.XR!@`&PP*#,@/&!Q,"@[HS$PU]"H (SPG9.Q7_>#(U-0* >M"H$-L0M@;O!G,3 S%" +"A+R# $&8P! !=!Y(&)I9 XN&T0*A0J%4&5L=%T( >MD2 -P060!4!C'*!LCP0@!: &\ N 9R!F"E!$;#\;O$IU(CHM >M*1N^=(\$D!N\"HL>$#$X, +1X&DM,30T#? ,T"03>0M9,38*H -@(9 =42U? >M)C<*AR3K## EMD8#83JG)SXEM@R"($0`<&X:\/Y""L 6``) )M\G[09@`C + >M*1\J*TT"(&1A>2PC!= P(" P-#! ,3F .3@@-#HP.1-PYDTKSR?M5&\N#RHK >M(!!D>5\-P&E ->$90#("+@GP9RYO:&EOFBT?L&$AD#: 9'4QKW$LWG5B:AU! >M,\\J*U+.93H@/ `#4&EG!) `<,QTM'C$L86<+<1N(9R70(&[G)= VX!XQ=&\UD$*0`_#_0B! P .@"X AD1WB!) P >M0+\+@!Y0`-!![T+R1-!E0U*886ME"H4+<'(N$W#]';!O,$!$OT,0'>9%XD7P >M>&%DMTT?$=P6P:QT`=O\)\!L`*Y$$D!MO!< J^QNM\#Y'=WD#H#P`"8 :\.M <2&0 >M.E#F/E#74O! `)YU, `$(!X03)%A(!8`?SQE(9!+04-X0G('@$<@5_<1P 5 >M0K%Y"& =< = `R#_`'!2>%5J!I!%TA8`0U $(/='H!L`%9!W'.$W0 &0$;"5 >M"8 _$W @);!E+4.TG1ZF/E#F2J!"L&XG!4"_1\)-D%E4"L!442LA= AP_P;@ >M$;(\D00@1\!6L4F175*C5%%'`"!U<$)R-2.P=U#F#; >0$,;03.05J$GFP0@ >M,!!M`Z!*,'0A2I'O771"\$Q@/(!H!4!.`%1A)FX'T1WFMYDE77B,#`!V 3"/U'>(]4O!R4]!,8 6P1@"]!N!O'[ P0$/@!!%K1Z!L8VLP >M0&C#<%HR1R%M_5QX8Q60$?!;`&)06;%9L4-DHE:Q<'5Z>D/@(/8[((9<9T$; >MIEQG(<\]KR\9VR6V"H45(0!S\ ````,`$! ``````P`1$ ,```! ``ME?AVO0% ``@PP*KDE?AVO0$>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P`` >"^(-V >` >end > > > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 22:50:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28657 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:50:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from wavecom.net (root@wave.sheridan.wy.us [206.54.116.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28650 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:50:49 -0400 Received: from default (sher10.wavecom.net [206.54.116.95]) by wavecom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA20498 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:46:44 -0600 Message-Id: <199805040246.UAA20498@wavecom.net> From: "John Carroll" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:49:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Refrigerants Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199805031016.UAA23598@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have always wanted to use surplus exhaust heat to run a power unit that would crank the alternator, a/c and power steering. The unit can be mounted remotely from the engine and located where the weight and volume can be best accomodated. Without those accessories the engine will be slim and trim. There would likely be a surplus of electric power available so even the water pump can be electric. Good idea John Carroll John Carroll jac@wavecom.net From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 23:01:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA28916 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:01:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28911 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:01:42 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA04162 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:01:40 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:01:40 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040301.NAA04162@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Back again - of course you know this isn't my idea (from my previous reply to this email). However, I've read it again... I don't think you should cool the exhaust before the turbo too much (unless it is getting too hot), but in turbine engines (ie. in the "Harrier jump jet"), water injection is used to increase the mass flow, and make the thrust larger (someone has said this before - it might be in the archives under water injection). Adding water to your exhaust before the turbo might increase its boost. But then again, it might not. Anyone know more about turbines who can confirm/deny this??? Danny Barrett. >---------- >> From: Danny Barrett >> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Subject: Re: Refrigerants >> Date: 3. mai 1998 20:17 >> >> An intercooler might be a great idea, but this isn't one. Sorry guys... >> You'll have to guess again... >> >ok I will try:I have one idee my self, to cool the exhaust before it enters >the turbo >charger.It could be a way of widening the dynamic range of the turbine, and >lower the exhaust backpressure.A kind of boost control, without wastgate. >I thought of spraying water into the exhaust manifold. >Espen Hilde > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 23:36:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29563 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:36:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29558 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:36:34 -0400 Received: from tufts.edu (st1254.tc.tufts.edu) by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #23568) with ESMTP id <0ESE00G96Y0YP4@emerald.tufts.edu> for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:36:16 -0400 From: Andris Skulte Subject: Re: Blown fuel/timing maps To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <354D37B0.D602D213@tufts.edu> X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <13a5f404.354d1aa2@aol.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Yes, it does. It's CSH proof (almost!) > Does this setup have a knock sensor? > Mike V -- *********Skulte Performance Designs---WWW.SKULTE.COM********** Your third and fourth generation f-body specialists ******89 IROC M5 305TPI---13.5@104.1--320 hp/475 ft-lbs******* From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 23:48:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29791 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:48:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29786 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:48:32 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-005.mcn.net [208.26.146.5]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08483 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:48:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354D376C.EAA23AF2@mcn.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 21:35:08 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Refrigerants References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > > > > > If it has to do with Intercooling then i'm intrested. I;t would be really cool to > > have the air going into my intake at freezing tempatures. > > I have already seen a device that refrigerates the incoming air > somwhere in a magazine > it does make a difference > if you can keep the air at about -20 you cna tune up to 10% more power > out of an engine over running air at underhood temps ~150 > plus you cna run more comp and timing as well to bump it up a little more > > > > Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an > > > intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? > > > > > > If you can find a refrigerant that will work down to about -100C or whatever > > > the temp of 'dry ice' is, then you can make a practical refrigerated > > > intercooler suitable for drag races, or longer races if you have a large dry > > > ice bin. > > ammonia may work across these temp extremes > but it is not very efficient > from what I can remeber > > Clive I wonder if there's any power to be found by ducting intake air through the factory a/c evaporator? Shannen From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 23:57:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29977 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:57:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29973 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:57:11 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yWCQN-00000qC; Mon, 4 May 98 00:00 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Refrigerants To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:00:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <199805040246.UAA20498@wavecom.net> from "John Carroll" at May 3, 98 08:49:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu if you could get a large enough thermo couple you could use it to generate enough power by removing waste heat from the ex then use and electric waterpump, amd maybe even electric PS pump > > > I have always wanted to use surplus exhaust heat to run a > power unit that would crank the alternator, a/c and power > steering. The unit can be mounted remotely from the engine > and located where the weight and volume can be best > accomodated. Without those accessories the engine > will be slim and trim. There would likely be a surplus > of electric power available so even the water pump can be > electric. Good idea From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 23:57:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29993 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:57:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29988 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:57:34 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA19725 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:57:32 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:57:32 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040357.NAA19725@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I can see that my question has produces a plethora of new (but some may not be) ideas, but this one still isn't what I am doing. It might be a good idea though, if the power unit doesn't weigh too much... Danny Barrett >I have always wanted to use surplus exhaust heat to run a >power unit that would crank the alternator, a/c and power >steering. The unit can be mounted remotely from the engine >and located where the weight and volume can be best >accomodated. Without those accessories the engine >will be slim and trim. There would likely be a surplus >of electric power available so even the water pump can be >electric. Good idea > >John Carroll > >John Carroll >jac@wavecom.net > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 3 23:59:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA30100 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:59:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA30095 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:59:58 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-005.mcn.net [208.26.146.5]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11989 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:59:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354D3A19.22AEEB9F@mcn.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 21:46:33 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: 101 Stuff References: <016901bd76f9$6ff67900$97fffed0@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu David wrote: > > Your prices seem high. > > The local pick it yourself charges $ 25.00 for the ECU and $ 5.00 to 10.00 > for the harness depending who is collecting money that day. > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: Shannen Durphey > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 2:07 AM > Subject: Re: 101 Stuff > > |Bruce Plecan wrote: > |> > |> We here at CSH., HQ., are experiencing a technical problem. > |> While slightly off list, the edge is blurring here between personal > |> and 101 projects. Anyway, we need a couple things. 1. a set > |> of ecm connectors like used on the 747's (it used two connectors), > |> 2. a set off a 730 type ecm (it had three connectors), with like a > |> foot (preferably more) of wire on them for doing some bench work. > |> 3. Then a entire harness outta like a 90-91 2.8 Celebrity, or any other > |> 1227730 ecm equipped car. Not looking for freebies, just resonable > |> priced ones. > |> Nor a worry mate. > |> Bruce > | > | > |What's reasonable? Local bone yard sells harnesses for $50, > |and ECM for $50. Can maybe get both for $75, but seems high > |to me. If interested, I'll make some calls. > | > |Shannen > | I'll call you on that. When you have a harness and ECM from 86-91 chev pickup (1227747 ecm) let me know. I'm sure there's a deal in there. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 00:00:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA30152 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:00:58 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA30148 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:00:57 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-005.mcn.net [208.26.146.5]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA12353 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:00:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354D3A56.177327F1@mcn.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 21:47:34 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: 101 Stuff References: <016901bd76f9$6ff67900$97fffed0@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu David wrote: > > Your prices seem high. > > The local pick it yourself charges $ 25.00 for the ECU and $ 5.00 to 10.00 > for the harness depending who is collecting money that day. > > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: Shannen Durphey > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 2:07 AM > Subject: Re: 101 Stuff > > |Bruce Plecan wrote: > |> > |> We here at CSH., HQ., are experiencing a technical problem. > |> While slightly off list, the edge is blurring here between personal > |> and 101 projects. Anyway, we need a couple things. 1. a set > |> of ecm connectors like used on the 747's (it used two connectors), > |> 2. a set off a 730 type ecm (it had three connectors), with like a > |> foot (preferably more) of wire on them for doing some bench work. > |> 3. Then a entire harness outta like a 90-91 2.8 Celebrity, or any other > |> 1227730 ecm equipped car. Not looking for freebies, just resonable > |> priced ones. > |> Nor a worry mate. > |> Bruce > | > | > |What's reasonable? Local bone yard sells harnesses for $50, > |and ECM for $50. Can maybe get both for $75, but seems high > |to me. If interested, I'll make some calls. > | > |Shannen > | I'll call you on that. When you have a harness and ECM from 86-91 chev pickup (1227747 ecm) let me know. I'm sure there's a deal in there. Or, when you have the harness and ECM from 2.8l 1227730 car, the same applies. Shannen From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 00:09:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA30232 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:09:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from dialup0.bushnell.net (root@dialup0.bushnell.net [207.177.24.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA30228 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:09:30 -0400 Received: from Avonil.net.AvonIL.net (port1.dialup0.avonil.net [207.177.24.196]) by dialup0.bushnell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA24373 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:07:06 -0500 Message-ID: <002701bd7712$6f9cb6e0$c418b1cf@Avonil.net.AvonIL.net> From: "Dave Balfour" To: Subject: Re: Refrigerants Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 23:09:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Why stop with water? fuel would spin the turbo faster. Less lag. dave balfour -----Original Message----- From: Danny Barrett To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 10:39 PM Subject: Re: Refrigerants >Back again - of course you know this isn't my idea (from my previous reply >to this email). However, I've read it again... I don't think you should cool >the exhaust before the turbo too much (unless it is getting too hot), but in >turbine engines (ie. in the "Harrier jump jet"), water injection is used to >increase the mass flow, and make the thrust larger (someone has said this >before - it might be in the archives under water injection). Adding water to >your exhaust before the turbo might increase its boost. But then again, it >might not. Anyone know more about turbines who can confirm/deny this??? > >Danny Barrett. > > >>---------- >>> From: Danny Barrett >>> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >>> Subject: Re: Refrigerants >>> Date: 3. mai 1998 20:17 >>> >>> An intercooler might be a great idea, but this isn't one. Sorry guys... >>> You'll have to guess again... >>> >>ok I will try:I have one idee my self, to cool the exhaust before it enters >>the turbo >>charger.It could be a way of widening the dynamic range of the turbine, and >>lower the exhaust backpressure.A kind of boost control, without wastgate. >>I thought of spraying water into the exhaust manifold. >>Espen Hilde >> >> > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 00:39:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA30702 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:39:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from uia.net (uia.net [157.22.213.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA30698 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:39:32 -0400 Received: from tyan-machine (157.22.213.102) by uia.net with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0.1); Sun, 3 May 1998 21:40:00 -0700 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: RE: Refrigerants Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 21:39:25 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-reply-to: <199805040236.MAA27059@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Importance: Normal Message-ID: <1317890892-21936510@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Deleted Stuff > > Just had this guess... Sorry... Not what I'm doing... Nice try though. > > Just a thought... isn't it interesting how if you say you have a "secret," > that you have to keep to yourself for now, everyone seems to try to guess > what it is..... > > Danny Barrett. > Or if you are truly fiendish, an insanely diabolical way of trolling for new ideas ...... From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 00:49:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA30863 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:49:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA30857 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:49:07 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id AXR00431; Mon, 04 May 1998 00:48:03 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:35:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Refrigerants Message-ID: <19980504.004723.16286.0.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <199805031809.EAA05609@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4,6-12,18-19,22-25 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 4 May 1998 04:09:46 +1000 (EST) danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) writes: >Sorry, wrong again... >got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake >air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it >in, and make the thing work even better..... > >Danny Barrett. Let's see... Cool the gasoline so that it won't vaporize readily. Inject it into the manifold at that temperature, but hook up one of those ultrasonic transducers that they use in the ultrasonic humidifiers. That'll atomize it into really small droplets that'll be too cold to readily evaporate. That'll reduce the volume taken up by the vaporized fuel and allow more air into the engine. It seems to me that someone sold an ultrasonic fuel atomizer several years ago. Has anyone seen one, or even heard of it? I don't think I'm imagining things... Ray Drouillard _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 00:49:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA30869 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:49:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA30864 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:49:12 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA04437 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:49:07 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:49:07 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040449.OAA04437@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Just thought of something else, this sounds like a Turbo, only with a generator stuck on its shaft, instead of a compression turbine... Very interesting... But: Would the power lost due to running the turbo (without a compressor for the intake charge, that is) be more than the power gain from not needing to run the alternator, A/C, P/S, oil pump, and the water pump from the engine's crank? Alternatively, since turbos can give a very high boost pressure, why not run a small to moderate boost from the turbo, and ALSO run these devices??? Would the turbo's drive turbine be efficient enough for this??? Danny Barrett. >I can see that my question has produces a plethora of new (but some may not >be) ideas, but this one still isn't what I am doing. It might be a good idea >though, if the power unit doesn't weigh too much... > >Danny Barrett > > >>I have always wanted to use surplus exhaust heat to run a >>power unit that would crank the alternator, a/c and power >>steering. The unit can be mounted remotely from the engine >>and located where the weight and volume can be best >>accomodated. Without those accessories the engine >>will be slim and trim. There would likely be a surplus >>of electric power available so even the water pump can be >>electric. Good idea >> >>John Carroll >> >>John Carroll >>jac@wavecom.net >> >> > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 00:59:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA31112 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:59:06 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA31108 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:59:04 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA07159 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:59:02 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:59:02 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040459.OAA07159@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thermocouple... Hmmm... I dunno. How much energy can you get from one? It seems to me as if we're heading toward trying to get rid of the generator alltogether, and using something completely different to run the cars electrics. It wouldn't be a bad idea if it can be made to work... There wouldn't be the energy loss from turning a gen, and otherwise wasted exhaust heat goes to a good use. I like the idea. Anyone know much about thermocouples, etc??? On the other hand, it might be possible to run a steam turbine (a small one) from the exhaust heat (like turbine power plants do), and drive the gen, A/C, P/S, oil pump, water pump, etc from it... Danny Barrett. >if you could get a large enough thermo couple you could use it to generate >enough power by removing waste heat from the ex >then use and electric waterpump, amd maybe even electric PS pump >> >> >> I have always wanted to use surplus exhaust heat to run a >> power unit that would crank the alternator, a/c and power >> steering. The unit can be mounted remotely from the engine >> and located where the weight and volume can be best >> accomodated. Without those accessories the engine >> will be slim and trim. There would likely be a surplus >> of electric power available so even the water pump can be >> electric. Good idea > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 01:00:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA31140 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:00:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA31135 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:00:05 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yWDPG-000158C; Mon, 4 May 98 01:03 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Refrigerants To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:03:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <002701bd7712$6f9cb6e0$c418b1cf@Avonil.net.AvonIL.net> from "Dave Balfour" at May 3, 98 11:09:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Why stop with water? fuel would spin the turbo faster. Less lag. > dave balfour they have a porduct called an ALC (anti lag control) that does this in conjunction with modulating the wastegate it is commonly used in rally cars it is very hard on engine compnenets and occasionally overspins and shatters a turbine there is almost no usable O2 in the ex that would halp the extra fuel to burn so more air has te be added as well Clive From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 01:00:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA31151 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:00:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA31145 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:00:29 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA07638 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:00:26 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:00:26 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040500.PAA07638@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Worse fuel economy, possibility of exhaust manifold being blown off the engine.... >Why stop with water? fuel would spin the turbo faster. Less lag. >dave balfour >-----Original Message----- >From: Danny Barrett >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 10:39 PM >Subject: Re: Refrigerants > > >>Back again - of course you know this isn't my idea (from my previous >reply >>to this email). However, I've read it again... I don't think you >should cool >>the exhaust before the turbo too much (unless it is getting too >hot), but in >>turbine engines (ie. in the "Harrier jump jet"), water injection is >used to >>increase the mass flow, and make the thrust larger (someone has said >this >>before - it might be in the archives under water injection). Adding >water to >>your exhaust before the turbo might increase its boost. But then >again, it >>might not. Anyone know more about turbines who can confirm/deny >this??? >> >>Danny Barrett. >> >> >>>---------- >>>> From: Danny Barrett >>>> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >>>> Subject: Re: Refrigerants >>>> Date: 3. mai 1998 20:17 >>>> >>>> An intercooler might be a great idea, but this isn't one. Sorry >guys... >>>> You'll have to guess again... >>>> >>>ok I will try:I have one idee my self, to cool the exhaust before >it enters >>>the turbo >>>charger.It could be a way of widening the dynamic range of the >turbine, and >>>lower the exhaust backpressure.A kind of boost control, without >wastgate. >>>I thought of spraying water into the exhaust manifold. >>>Espen Hilde >>> >>> >> > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 01:03:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA31305 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:03:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from r02n02.cac.psu.edu (r02a02.cac.psu.edu [146.186.15.12]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA31293 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:03:02 -0400 Received: from pft101.rh.psu.edu (PFT101.rh.psu.edu [128.118.125.178]) by r02n02.cac.psu.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA90802 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:02:51 -0400 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:02:51 -0400 Message-Id: <199805040502.BAA90802@r02n02.cac.psu.edu> X-Sender: pft101@email.psu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Paul Tholey Subject: Junkyard shopping Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Shannen, Can a 3rd party enter this? What are 7730 ECM's worth to you? I have a local U-Pull-It yard and I would gladly pull stuff for people. The ECM's are cake to pull, but a harness takes me at least 3 hours to pull right. I am sure there are people faster than me, but that is not the issue. This goes out to the rest of the list too. School is ending, only for 1 month, finally will be graduating after summer classes :^) So if I can spend my days in the yard pulling stuff for people, and keeping an eye on all of the "fresh kills", this really would be a great summer vacation! Paul Tholey At 09:47 PM 5/3/98 -0600, you wrote: >David wrote: >> >> Your prices seem high. >> >> The local pick it yourself charges $ 25.00 for the ECU and $ 5.00 to 10.00 >> for the harness depending who is collecting money that day. >> >> David >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Shannen Durphey >> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 2:07 AM >> Subject: Re: 101 Stuff >> >> |Bruce Plecan wrote: >> |> >> |> We here at CSH., HQ., are experiencing a technical problem. >> |> While slightly off list, the edge is blurring here between personal >> |> and 101 projects. Anyway, we need a couple things. 1. a set >> |> of ecm connectors like used on the 747's (it used two connectors), >> |> 2. a set off a 730 type ecm (it had three connectors), with like a >> |> foot (preferably more) of wire on them for doing some bench work. >> |> 3. Then a entire harness outta like a 90-91 2.8 Celebrity, or any other >> |> 1227730 ecm equipped car. Not looking for freebies, just resonable >> |> priced ones. >> |> Nor a worry mate. >> |> Bruce >> | >> | >> |What's reasonable? Local bone yard sells harnesses for $50, >> |and ECM for $50. Can maybe get both for $75, but seems high >> |to me. If interested, I'll make some calls. >> | >> |Shannen >> | >I'll call you on that. When you have a harness and ECM from >86-91 chev pickup (1227747 ecm) let me know. I'm sure >there's a deal in there. > >Or, when you have the harness and ECM from 2.8l 1227730 car, >the same applies. > >Shannen > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 01:55:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA31890 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:55:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA31886 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:55:29 -0400 Received: from pclab28.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab28.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.128]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA22234 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:55:25 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:55:25 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040555.PAA22234@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: RE: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hmmmmmm..... I think he's onto me.... (just kidding). As I said before... It has EVERYTHING to do with Fuel Injection (or at least that is a part of it. But I can't really say more than that).... Danny Barrett. >Deleted Stuff > >> >> Just had this guess... Sorry... Not what I'm doing... Nice try though. >> >> Just a thought... isn't it interesting how if you say you have a "secret," >> that you have to keep to yourself for now, everyone seems to try to guess >> what it is..... >> >> Danny Barrett. >> > >Or if you are truly fiendish, an insanely diabolical way of trolling for >new ideas ...... > > > > > > > > > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 01:57:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA31900 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:57:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA31896 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:57:14 -0400 Received: from pclab28.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab28.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.128]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA22650 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:57:11 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:57:11 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040557.PAA22650@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> >> Why stop with water? fuel would spin the turbo faster. Less lag. >> dave balfour > >they have a porduct called an ALC (anti lag control) that does this >in conjunction with modulating the wastegate >it is commonly used in rally cars >it is very hard on engine compnenets and occasionally overspins >and shatters a turbine > > >there is almost no usable O2 in the ex that would halp the extra fuel >to burn so more air has te be added as well > >Clive > Yeah - add more fuel, add more air - **##BOOM##** From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 02:06:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA32005 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:06:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA32001 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:06:17 -0400 Received: from pclab28.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab28.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.128]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA25233 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:06:14 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:06:14 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040606.QAA25233@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The fuel atomiser that I heard of actually "cracked" the fuel, but since there was no hydrogen present, it only made the molecuels into longer chain polymers(instead of smaller, higher octane molecules). Fuel economy and power suffered dramatically (at least to what I had heard). There are better ways of doing this (I know several people who are developing different types of systems). It sounds to me as if your idea is nearly to cool the fuel so it won't evaporate, and then try to evaporate it, while not really evaporating it... sounds unusual to me... Danny Barrett. >On Mon, 4 May 1998 04:09:46 +1000 (EST) danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au >(Danny Barrett) writes: >>Sorry, wrong again... >>got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the >intake >>air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add >it >>in, and make the thing work even better..... >> >>Danny Barrett. > >Let's see... > >Cool the gasoline so that it won't vaporize readily. Inject it into the >manifold at that temperature, but hook up one of those ultrasonic >transducers that they use in the ultrasonic humidifiers. That'll atomize >it into really small droplets that'll be too cold to readily evaporate. >That'll reduce the volume taken up by the vaporized fuel and allow more >air into the engine. > >It seems to me that someone sold an ultrasonic fuel atomizer several >years ago. Has anyone seen one, or even heard of it? I don't think I'm >imagining things... > > >Ray Drouillard > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 02:15:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA32119 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:15:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA32115 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:14:59 -0400 Received: from DemonTSi@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8ETEa02432 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:14:28 -0400 (EDT) From: DemonTSi Message-ID: <14a27616.354d5cc5@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 02:14:28 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Refrigerants Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 98-05-04 02:06:57 EDT, danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au writes: << Hmmmmmm..... I think he's onto me.... (just kidding). As I said before... It has EVERYTHING to do with Fuel Injection (or at least that is a part of it. But I can't really say more than that).... >> Sounds like you may be trying to heat the fuel to "atomize" it? I forgot the exact concept behind this, but I do remember something about smokey yunik (sp?) working on something that would heat the fuel before it enters the intake... Van From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 02:38:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA32573 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:38:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA32563 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:38:02 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-005.mcn.net [208.26.146.5]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA15023 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:38:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354D5F25.54EF0032@mcn.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 00:24:37 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Refrigerants References: <199805040236.MAA27059@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Danny Barrett wrote: > > Just had this guess... Sorry... Not what I'm doing... Nice try though. > > Just a thought... isn't it interesting how if you say you have a "secret," > that you have to keep to yourself for now, everyone seems to try to guess > what it is..... > > Danny Barrett. > >What do you expect? The kind people who regularly post here are not willing to accept "sorry, that information is not available" as an answer. My bid is that you're shooting for a modern version of the "200 mpg carburetor". I would guess you are trying to find a way to use the heat of the exhaust to turn the liquid fuel into a gas immediately before introduction into the engine. I would say that you should spend some time in a reference library to find your refrigerant answers, as you are planning to use the invention for profit, and anything you gain from the list would be at someone else's expense. Sincerely, Shannen From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 02:43:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA32621 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:43:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA32617 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:43:40 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-005.mcn.net [208.26.146.5]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA15599 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:43:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354D6074.C700C36A@mcn.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 00:30:12 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Refrigerants References: <199805031809.EAA05609@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> <19980504.004723.16286.0.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > > On Mon, 4 May 1998 04:09:46 +1000 (EST) danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au > (Danny Barrett) writes: > >Sorry, wrong again... > >got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the > intake > >air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add > it > >in, and make the thing work even better..... > > > >Danny Barrett. > > Let's see... > > Cool the gasoline so that it won't vaporize readily. Inject it into the > manifold at that temperature, but hook up one of those ultrasonic > transducers that they use in the ultrasonic humidifiers. That'll atomize > it into really small droplets that'll be too cold to readily evaporate. > That'll reduce the volume taken up by the vaporized fuel and allow more > air into the engine. > > It seems to me that someone sold an ultrasonic fuel atomizer several > years ago. Has anyone seen one, or even heard of it? I don't think I'm > imagining things... > > Ray Drouillard > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] I used to get junk mail from a guy in Tennessee (I think) who was selling these. Just put them in you pcv line and experience instant (add desired result here). Shannen From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 02:54:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00028 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:54:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from linux1.americasnet.com (root@www.americasnet.com [207.155.121.128]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00021 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 02:54:23 -0400 Received: from beachscene.com (ppp01.americasnet.com [207.155.14.216]) by linux1.americasnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA15727 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:58:08 -0700 Message-ID: <354D6665.91F7FDA9@beachscene.com> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:55:33 -0700 From: gt bradley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Points ignition and EFI? (HELP!) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The "kick" from the coil will be much worse than the bounce from the points. You could try an aftermarket optical point replacement (used to be made by Allison, but I think they were bought out by holley). I've used these before and liked them, (no points to wear). This would give you a nice signal to tap into, and the "black-box" part of the conversion would probably isolate your circuitry from the coil.... GT Chris Vandrachek wrote: > Has anybody in EFI land ever heard of a standard pts igntion system being > used with an EFI system. I am designing a system based on a Motorola HC12 > and need to know if the noise from points ignition will cause problems. I > am working with a time crunch so I don't have time to convert to > electronic igntion. What can I do to minimize this kind of noise? > > Any kind of advice would be greatly appreciated! > > Chris Vondrachek > chrisv@egr.up.edu From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 05:28:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA01190 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:28:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA01185 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:28:43 -0400 Received: from pclab7.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab7.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.107]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA01958 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:28:41 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:28:41 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040928.TAA01958@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Of course, I cannot give you details. But you are on the right track. One thing that I can tell you (others that I know are doing it) - it is possible to "recycle" some of the otherwise wasted heat in catalytically cracking fuel (unleaded only - lead "kills" catalysts very quickly), and mixing it with hydrogen (note: this environment MUST NOT HAVE ANY AIR PRESENT!!! I know various methods for the production of hydrogen from water, within the vehicle, and not all of thm require huge amounts of electrical energy) to form mainly methane and some ethane. Methane having an octane No of about 116. However, as for any other details, I shall not divulge... Danny Barrett. >In a message dated 98-05-04 02:06:57 EDT, danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au >writes: > ><< Hmmmmmm..... I think he's onto me.... (just kidding). As I said before... >It > has EVERYTHING to do with Fuel Injection (or at least that is a part of it. > But I can't really say more than that).... >> > >Sounds like you may be trying to heat the fuel to "atomize" it? I forgot the >exact concept behind this, but I do remember something about smokey yunik >(sp?) working on something that would heat the fuel before it enters the >intake... > >Van > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 05:31:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA01229 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:31:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA01225 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:31:37 -0400 Received: from pclab7.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab7.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.107]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02320 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:31:36 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:31:36 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805040931.TAA02320@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu No, nothing to do with PCV line... (deleted) >> It seems to me that someone sold an ultrasonic fuel atomizer several >> years ago. Has anyone seen one, or even heard of it? I don't think I'm >> imagining things... >> >> Ray Drouillard >> >> _____________________________________________________________________ >> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > >I used to get junk mail from a guy in Tennessee (I think) >who was selling these. Just put them in you pcv line and >experience instant (add desired result here). > >Shannen > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 06:08:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01626 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:08:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01622 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:08:46 -0400 Received: from pclab7.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab7.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.107]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA06475 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:08:44 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:08:44 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805041008.UAA06475@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If and when I get a system going, I very much doubt that I will ever end up making a profit from such a device. In fact, if I actually get a patent (which may or may not happen - I'm keeping my options open by keeping enough a secret so that a patent may be possible), on request, I would sell fully worked blueprints at barely above my own cost of producing and distributing them (These blueprints would, of course, have written permission that the person who bought it may build one for thier own personal use - I might even extend it to their whole immediate family. I would have to wait and see. Everyone can QUOTE me on that, if they would like). The fact of the matter is that I very much doubt that there exists such a refrigerant that will cope with the required temperature differences (thus I am trying to find out if I am correct). If there is not, then I simply go to design No.2, of which there probably wouldn't very much to patent, and so I wouldn't even bother applying for one. Also, in this case, I would do the same as far (as the blueprints are concrened) as my design No.1. You can rest assured (or perhaps you don't really care) that if I ever made a profit from such a venture, it probably would never even cover my own experimental costs. Anyway, I am studying to be a civil engineer, and that will be my profession - not the automotive industry. Something you mentioned: I know of Charles Nelson Pogue's "200 MPG carb." And I know about the chemistry of how it worked, and why its results were not very reliable (I know more about the chemistry of it than he did at the time - but this doesn't take much). Asside from this, Pogue stated in an interview a few years before he died that he had never claimed even 100 MPG - others people did that, but he did not. All he claimed (so he said) was that it gave a significant increase in fuel economy. As for today, we no longer use "white" gasoline, as he did, and its properties are different (especially when it is considered that gasoline today contains molecular binders to reduce vaporous emissions during storage). Hence the figures may differ dramatically from his - whatever they may have *really* been (since he would not say what he got). In any case, thankyou for telling me of your concerns. Danny Barrett. >Danny Barrett wrote: >> >> Just had this guess... Sorry... Not what I'm doing... Nice try though. >> >> Just a thought... isn't it interesting how if you say you have a "secret," >> that you have to keep to yourself for now, everyone seems to try to guess >> what it is..... >> >> Danny Barrett. >> >>What do you expect? The kind people who regularly post here are not willing to accept "sorry, that information is not available" as an answer. > >My bid is that you're shooting for a modern version of the >"200 mpg carburetor". I would guess you are trying to find >a way to use the heat of the exhaust to turn the liquid fuel >into a gas immediately before introduction into the engine. > >I would say that you should spend some time in a reference >library to find your refrigerant answers, as you are >planning to use the invention for profit, and anything you >gain from the list would be at someone else's expense. > >Sincerely, >Shannen > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 06:39:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01918 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:39:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01914 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:39:44 -0400 Received: from pclab7.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab7.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.107]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA09920 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:39:42 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:39:42 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805041039.UAA09920@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: You ALL want to know, don't you... (previously refrigerants) X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu OK... If you have been reading much lately, you would have found out the basic idea of what this device is. I do not know what people think of the things (and I'm not particularly worried either). However, it has come to my attention that at least one person thinks I'm simply in this for money (and hence, a patent in order to secure the rights to that money). I admit freely that I DO NOT know how well the device will work (or if indeed it will work, as it might not). To show my goodwill to all on this mailing list, if there is so much as ONE person who would like information on how the devices are supposed to work, I *WILL* (unquestionably, and without reserve) produce documentation, and send it in to the DIY_EFI site owners for them to make a Web site out of it (this, of course will be at their discression), so that everyone can see these things (including my own extra ideas above things I have found from other places). However, those who would like such a thing will have to wait, as I have a lot to do already, and I do not yet have this information in any written form that I can send at this time. I repeat for those who may not know, that I am currently a university student, and my studies must come first. I am fully aware that if I disclose certain information that I would be disclosing in such documentation, I will be forfeiting my right to a patent, and by such, the methods, steps and devices which I show become PUBLIC DOMAIN. As an asside from this, I think that my question (and the secrecy surrounding it) has contributed constructively to the conversation, as it has brought out a number of ideas which could be worth while researching, and developing, and hence increasing the knowledge base of the members on this mailing list. Danny Barrett. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 07:09:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02229 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:09:46 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from oasys.dt.navy.mil (oasys.dt.navy.mil [130.46.1.53]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02225 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:09:42 -0400 Received: from gallant.dt.navy.mil by oasys.dt.navy.mil (5.61/oasys.dt.navy.mil) id AA25947; Mon, 4 May 98 07:09:40 EDT Message-Id: <354DB044.15B7@oasys.dt.navy.mil> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 07:10:45 -0500 From: Robert Gallant X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Blown fuel/timing maps References: <01bd7608$e72ace00$3a198fd1@nacelp> <19980503.014312.16334.0.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have a 170 kPa prom for the ProJection 4Di if anyone is interested. > BTW, the Holley Pro-Jection is a MAP system, and can plot up to about 130 > KPa. That means that it'll handle about a five PSI boost without > trouble. > > Ray Drouillard. -- Rob MailTo:gallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 08:44:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA02984 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:44:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (pmdf@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.1.16]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02980 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:44:23 -0400 Received: from tufts.edu (st1254.tc.tufts.edu) by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #23568) with ESMTP id <0ESF00583NDV3U@emerald.tufts.edu> for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 08:44:00 -0400 From: Andris Skulte Subject: Re: You ALL want to know, don't you... (previously refrigerants) To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <354DB810.F769495B@tufts.edu> X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <199805041039.UAA09920@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Danny Barrett wrote: > I am fully aware that if I disclose certain information that I would be > disclosing in such documentation, I will be forfeiting my right to a patent, > and by such, the methods, steps and devices which I show become PUBLIC DOMAIN. Not necessarily. A mailing list is not public domain since it is subscribed. A website, unless its password restricted is public domain. Andris From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 09:13:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03240 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:13:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03234 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:13:32 -0400 Received: from odin (1Cust13.tnt22.atl2.da.uu.net [153.36.127.13]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA07993 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:13:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Thor Johnson" To: Subject: RE: Refrigerants, Wide range EGO and other thoughts. Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 09:13:30 -0400 Message-ID: <002001bd775e$6f096600$06c05196@odin.mavrik.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <1317926878-19772013@uia.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Refrigerants > > Sounds like someone is trying to adapt the ammonia absorption cycle > refrigeration system to use as an intercooler. What is interesting is that > although this cycle is less "efficient" at cooling than a compressed gas > cycle, it gets it's pumping energy from heat - in the case of a propane RV > refrigerator from a small propane flame, or in this case from the waste heat > of the exhaust. The problem is probably the exhaust temperatures raise the > ammonia/water solution past the efficient working range and the gentleman is > looking for another absorption cycle fluid that will work in this range. You have any good sources of info on the ammonia cycle? I'm a nuts&bolts guy who would like to build one for the heck of it.... (An EE that likes to play with the ME's toys ;). TIA, -Thor Johnson thormj@iname.com From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 10:28:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04012 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from webserver (brpt01-sh8-port203.snet.net [204.60.24.203]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03996 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:44 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAB00262 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:09 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:09 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041427.KAB00262@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504095328.007b4520@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:53:28 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Patents In-Reply-To: <199805040236.MAA27059@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Just a thought... isn't it interesting how if you say you have a "secret," >that you have to keep to yourself for now, everyone seems to try to guess >what it is..... Danny, Instead of filling the list with "No, guess again", you might consider searching the IBM database of patents. Their address is www.patents.ibm.com ; an excellent resource for anyone considering applying for a patent. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 10:28:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04021 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04017 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:52 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04218; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:50 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAF00262 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:19 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:19 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041427.KAF00262@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504100132.007b56e0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:01:32 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: RE: Refrigerants In-Reply-To: <199805040555.PAA22234@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Hmmmmmm..... I think he's onto me.... (just kidding). As I said before... It >has EVERYTHING to do with Fuel Injection (or at least that is a part of it. >But I can't really say more than that).... Don't take this personally Danny, but don't you find it "tacky" at a minimum, leaching information off a list designed to help people devise a fuel injection system, then to turn around, not share the technology & information, and patent it to achieve profit? Maybe tacky is not the right word. Sorry, I have to agree with Bob. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 10:28:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04033 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:57 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04029 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:57 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04224; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:56 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAH00262 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:23 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:23 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041427.KAH00262@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504100805.007bd7c0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:08:05 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: carbonated mineral water In-Reply-To: <01BD7758.10B27480.dzorde@soanar.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I remember my grandad telling me they used to use carbonated mineral water when >de-coking the engines, apparently this worked much better as plain water tended >to stall the engine. I would think it would... simply because when I worked in a restaurant, cleaning a hot buger grill with soda water was more effective than water alone. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 10:29:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04039 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:29:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04035 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:59 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04227; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:58 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAI00262 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041427.KAI00262@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504101355.007bb6a0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:13:55 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: You ALL want to know, don't you... (previously refrigerants) In-Reply-To: <199805041039.UAA09920@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >As an asside from this, I think that my question (and the secrecy >surrounding it) has contributed constructively to the conversation, as it >has brought out a number of ideas which could be worth while researching, >and developing, and hence increasing the knowledge base of the members on >this mailing list. Danny, I might have been harsh on you in a prior message... however I am one of those people you mentioned with the perception you are here to leach informaton, run, and get a patent. While you are entitled to, I thought it interfered with the overall scope of the list - sharing, working together, and mutually learning something. Don't forget ASCII is a tough medium, its difficult for everyone to really truly percieve what you are thinking, as no one can see your face, hear the inflextion in your voice, etc. The reverse is true, you cannot see us. That aside, I for one would be very interested in your idea, as I'm in the process of building a twin-turbo V6 Buick and have already started constructing a refrigerant-based intercooler. The purpose of this style intercooler is to achieve a constant (and controllable) intake temperature to the engine, post turbo, which is cold enough to be readily compressable in a major way. More air, means more fuel, means more power. At least until the heads blow off. My test engine, which was a 1986 3.8L FWD engine, certainly not associated with high performance, I was able to achieve 820HP at 6300 RPM on the dyno before the rods flew through the side of the engine, using ice water pumped through an intercooler welded into the intake log, integrated into the manifold. My final engine will not be that extreme, but you can see where I'm going, and why I'm interested. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 10:28:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04013 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03997 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:44 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04213; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:42 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAC00262 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:11 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:11 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041427.KAC00262@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504095608.00797cc0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:56:08 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Water in the Turbo In-Reply-To: <199805040301.NAA04162@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >your exhaust before the turbo might increase its boost. But then again, it >might not. Anyone know more about turbines who can confirm/deny this??? Introducing water into the headers just before the turbo will increase the pressure applied to the turbo. However, there are two drawbacks - 1. The turbo could overspin 2. The water (mostly steam) hit the turbo blades, spinning at 100,000 RPM, and chip off little pieces. If you ever wiped out water skiing, you know that moving fast across the water feels much like sliding on concrete. Turbo blades do not like being impaled. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 10:28:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04027 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04023 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:54 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04221; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:52 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAG00262 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:21 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:21 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041427.KAG00262@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504100703.007ba240@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:07:03 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: High MPG In-Reply-To: <199805041008.UAA06475@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Something you mentioned: I know of Charles Nelson Pogue's "200 MPG carb." >And I know about the chemistry of how it worked, and why its results were >not very reliable (I know more about the chemistry of it than he did at the >time - but this doesn't take much). Asside from this, Pogue stated in an Unfortunately, these kind of devices and technology are basically bandaids to a much greater problem, one of great inefficiency. A pushrod engine is about as ineffecient as an engine can get, however it does have its merits. I think once engineers start moving away from a 100 year old design, things will definately get better mileage wise. I don't have the URLs handy, however there are two such engines that have strayed away from pushrods, but replacing the rotating assembly with a giant Cam. The cam, instead of controlling valve timing, is driven by the pistons, which are configured in a radial fashion. The one engine that is running (and in the internet), creates very little horsepower, however the torque it generates phenominal as compared to its weight, size, and configuration. I think pushrod engines waste something in the neighborhood of 80% of the available power in the gasoline. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 10:28:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04014 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04000 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:45 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA04214; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:42 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00262 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041427.KAA00262@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504094946.007b79a0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:49:46 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Junkyard shopping In-Reply-To: <199805040502.BAA90802@r02n02.cac.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Can a 3rd party enter this? What are 7730 ECM's worth to you? I >have a local U-Pull-It yard and I would gladly pull stuff for people. The >ECM's are cake to pull, but a harness takes me at least 3 hours to pull >right. I am sure there are people faster than me, but that is not the issue. Thank you for your offer... I'm sure others will take you up on it. As far as pulling a harness, it is a time consuming process. I found the most difficult spot in the connection on the firewall, especially if they harness connectors were "sealed" with that black goo. My solution was to sawzall from the top of the firewall down towards the connector, then to use a ballpeen hammer to push the cut apart, and the connector comes free. Not practical in the junkyard I must admit, but the donor vehicle I stripped was in my garage, making the job a lot easier. Not that this affect anything :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 10:28:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04015 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from webserver (brpt01-sh8-port203.snet.net [204.60.24.203]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03999 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:28:44 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAD00262; Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:13 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:27:13 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041427.KAD00262@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504095834.007b04d0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:58:34 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Refrigerants In-Reply-To: <19980504.004723.16286.0.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <199805031809.EAA05609@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >It seems to me that someone sold an ultrasonic fuel atomizer several >years ago. Has anyone seen one, or even heard of it? I don't think I'm >imagining things... Your not imagining it Ray, when Danny first posted his thoughts without revealing his "secret" what you suggested popped into my mind also. I do believe there are ultrasonic FI systems, but I don't think it ever made it to the market. I'm not entirely sure. May have been due to the fact that ultrasonic washing machines cost $1500 and motor driven "swash bucket" washers cost $250. Might have been the same issue - technology to expensive at this point. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 10:31:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04117 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:31:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from bert.acesag.auburn.edu (bert.acesag.auburn.edu [131.204.46.47]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04113 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:31:19 -0400 Received: from bert (bert [131.204.46.47]) by bert.acesag.auburn.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA02730 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:31:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 09:31:17 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gregory A. Parmer" X-Sender: gparmer@bert To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: 101 Stuff In-Reply-To: <354D3A56.177327F1@mcn.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 3 May 1998, Shannen Durphey wrote: > David wrote: > > Your prices seem high. > > The local pick it yourself charges $ 25.00 for the ECU and $ 5.00 to 10.00 > > for the harness depending who is collecting money that day. > > David > > > > From: Shannen Durphey > > |What's reasonable? Local bone yard sells harnesses for $50, > > |and ECM for $50. Can maybe get both for $75, but seems high > > |to me. If interested, I'll make some calls. > > |Shannen FWIW--I've just gotten 2 ECMs (one local and one mail order), each for $50. The local wanted $50 for a u-pull-it harness also. It may be a bit high, but sometimes ya takes what ya can gets. -greg Auburn, AL From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 10:41:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04248 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:41:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR02 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.138]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04244 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:40:59 -0400 Received: from default - 208.254.255.162 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:40:12 -0700 Message-ID: <002201bd776a$bfb21640$a2fffed0@default> From: "David" To: Subject: Re: 101 Stuff Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 09:40:36 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Shannon, It is self service. You have to go and see what they have. It is located about 6 miles east of downtown St. Louis, MO. I can provide the exact address and phone number if that helps you. David -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 11:21 PM Subject: Re: 101 Stuff |David wrote: |> |> Your prices seem high. |> |> The local pick it yourself charges $ 25.00 for the ECU and $ 5.00 to 10.00 |> for the harness depending who is collecting money that day. |> |> David |> |> -----Original Message----- |> From: Shannen Durphey |> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu |> Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 2:07 AM |> Subject: Re: 101 Stuff |> |> |Bruce Plecan wrote: |> |> |> |> We here at CSH., HQ., are experiencing a technical problem. |> |> While slightly off list, the edge is blurring here between personal |> |> and 101 projects. Anyway, we need a couple things. 1. a set |> |> of ecm connectors like used on the 747's (it used two connectors), |> |> 2. a set off a 730 type ecm (it had three connectors), with like a |> |> foot (preferably more) of wire on them for doing some bench work. |> |> 3. Then a entire harness outta like a 90-91 2.8 Celebrity, or any other |> |> 1227730 ecm equipped car. Not looking for freebies, just resonable |> |> priced ones. |> |> Nor a worry mate. |> |> Bruce |> | |> | |> |What's reasonable? Local bone yard sells harnesses for $50, |> |and ECM for $50. Can maybe get both for $75, but seems high |> |to me. If interested, I'll make some calls. |> | |> |Shannen |> | |I'll call you on that. When you have a harness and ECM from |86-91 chev pickup (1227747 ecm) let me know. I'm sure |there's a deal in there. | From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 10:55:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04500 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:55:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from uia.net (uia.net [157.22.213.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04492 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:55:17 -0400 Received: from tyan-machine (157.22.213.35) by uia.net with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0.1); Mon, 4 May 1998 07:55:47 -0700 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: Ammonia Absorption Refrigeration reference Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 07:55:11 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <002001bd775e$6f096600$06c05196@odin.mavrik.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Message-ID: <1317853946-24158686@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Quick Reference - with a lot of pointers to other areas http://www.nh3tech.org/n3.html > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Thor > Johnson > Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 6:14 AM > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: RE: Refrigerants, Wide range EGO and other thoughts. > > > > Refrigerants > > > > Sounds like someone is trying to adapt the ammonia absorption > cycle > > refrigeration system to use as an intercooler. What is > interesting is that > > although this cycle is less "efficient" at cooling than a > compressed gas > > cycle, it gets it's pumping energy from heat - in the case of > a propane RV > > refrigerator from a small propane flame, or in this case from > the waste heat > > of the exhaust. The problem is probably the exhaust > temperatures raise the > > ammonia/water solution past the efficient working range and > the gentleman is > > looking for another absorption cycle fluid that will work in > this range. > > You have any good sources of info on the ammonia cycle? I'm a > nuts&bolts guy who would like to build one for the heck of it.... > (An EE that likes to play with the ME's toys ;). > > TIA, > -Thor Johnson > thormj@iname.com > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 11:26:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05200 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:26:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05194 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:25:55 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA14038 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:25:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:25:54 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805041525.BAA14038@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: You ALL want to know, don't you... (previously refrigerants) X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Things might be a bit different in Oz to US... If we disclose the nature of our inventions to *anyone,* then the patent can not be granted, unless the person(s) to whom it is disclosed make a written affirmation of secrecy about the device, and even then, if the patent office feels that they didn't need to know for some reason, the patent will not be granted... Tough, Heh!!! Danny Barrett. >Danny Barrett wrote: >> I am fully aware that if I disclose certain information that I would be >> disclosing in such documentation, I will be forfeiting my right to a patent, >> and by such, the methods, steps and devices which I show become PUBLIC DOMAIN. > >Not necessarily. A mailing list is not public domain since it is >subscribed. A website, unless its password restricted is public domain. > >Andris > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 11:37:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05575 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:37:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05567 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:37:11 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA15322 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:37:08 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:37:08 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805041537.BAA15322@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Patents X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is probably a very good idea. I have not found anything like my idea in Oz, on the patent record, however, I haven't had the time to look very far. As for anything in the US - I haven't searched at all. Hoever, I do know that a man in Canada tried to patent it (in Canada), but it was rejected, as the patent rules changed part way through his application, and it made his application void, and his idea was then public domain. I have worked my device around his, only, I have put in another part to make it more efficient (hence the refrigerants). If I can't find a suitable refrigerant, the device is probably not patentable, as I only have a few small things in it that he didn't have. It might be more worth my while to put copyright on the parts that are mine, and make sure he has copyright on the parts that are his (we have conversed back and forth, and he has taught me what he knows, and I think it is fair to say that I have his permission to use his idea, and extend it with my own, so I am not in breach of copyright by using his idea in my device). Danny Barrett. >>Just a thought... isn't it interesting how if you say you have a "secret," >>that you have to keep to yourself for now, everyone seems to try to guess >>what it is..... > >Danny, > >Instead of filling the list with "No, guess again", you might consider >searching the IBM database of patents. Their address is >www.patents.ibm.com ; an excellent resource for anyone considering applying >for a patent. > > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >Homebrew Automotive Website: >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HMMWV >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > >- > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 11:40:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05656 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:40:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05652 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:39:59 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA15570 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:39:57 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:39:57 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805041539.BAA15570@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Water in the Turbo X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Very good point. So if water is injected, it must be TOTALLY converted into DRY, SUPERHEATED STEAM before it gets to the turbo... >>your exhaust before the turbo might increase its boost. But then again, it >>might not. Anyone know more about turbines who can confirm/deny this??? > >Introducing water into the headers just before the turbo will increase the >pressure applied to the turbo. However, there are two drawbacks - > > 1. The turbo could overspin > 2. The water (mostly steam) hit the turbo blades, spinning at 100,000 RPM, >and chip off little pieces. > >If you ever wiped out water skiing, you know that moving fast across the >water feels much like sliding on concrete. Turbo blades do not like being >impaled. > > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >Homebrew Automotive Website: >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HMMWV >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > >- > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 11:43:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05718 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:43:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05714 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:43:18 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA15976 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:43:14 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:43:14 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805041543.BAA15976@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: carbonated mineral water X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sure it isn't "buRger," not "buger?" Or did you mean a "hot bugger of a grill?" :-) (deleted) >cleaning a hot buger grill with..... >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >Homebrew Automotive Website: >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HMMWV >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > >- > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 11:52:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05923 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:52:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05919 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:52:09 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA15058 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:52:03 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 08:52:48 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <356fda6b.50857750@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id LAA05920 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey Maties. I been keepin this under me hat for a while, but thot I'd spill the beans and max out the fun, now that I have a Lab Rat working. Member that thread awhile back about using the post-spark ionization current to detect detonation and misfires? Well, one of our illustrious members, whose initials are Jim Crance (golly, I hope he doesn't mind taking a bow), who's also a fellow pilot, got aholdOme and said he had a slightly marginal Trionic Ignition/Ionization unit from Saab that worked fine excpet it hickup'd whenever it was in a deep freeze, and would I like to have a look? Jim's a Saab (& other Euro's) Mech. So I got the thang last week before last, along with a nice Saab 9000 manual Jim sent along, and danged if it don't look feasible to diy. The assembly's epoxy potted, so limits my snooping to watching it fly from the outside (just as well), but like I said before, I figure ANYTHING that's being mass deployed in the commercial auto market has GOT to be diy'able; otherwise anything twitchy/complicated/sensitive isn't gonna make it, and Saab's apparently been using this technology since '93!! Does this remind you at all of EGOR? So, here's the plan. Just like before, instead of 'cheating' and looking inside, we'll use the same approach as on EGOR, and try to LEARN how it works, with yous guys help, like before. Now, since I'm not a member of SAE, and I see they want a $100/yr subscription JUST to search their Paper's bibliography, I am soliciting help in locating any/all articles/info on this system. I can't imagine Saab not touting it upon/in-prep-for it's introduction in '93, so there have GOT to be some interesting/useful papers available. Soooo, any of yous guys with a moment and a membership in SAE, could you start the ball rolling by doing a search in the SAE Bibliography for any hits on the following known good keywords: Saab AND Trionic, "Ignition Discharge Module", Ionization, etc. The manual Jim sent me says "The Saab Trionic system was introduced in 1993 on Saab 9000 models fitted with the B234L engine." The manual itself if for '96, and assuming they're still using this Trionic stuff in '98, that means the thang's been deployed for 5 years. That oughta be enough to convince anyone it works, I would guess. [Saab sells alot of them Turbo 9000's, don't it? At any rate I sure see alot of them here in Calif. A fan of the yuppie crowd, ifyaknowadamean.] Finally, Fair Use allows us the privilege of posting a few of the key pages from the manual to wet your appetite, so I'll scan a couple in and post them up on the FTP site. This could give ole EGOR a definitive challenge to his nascent fameNnotoriety. Now he's gonna have competition. Sorta like the Red & Yellow MnM bozos. Heh. Let's get'er rollin, dudes. Cuz this tech sure looks like it beats the acoustic knock detection schemes by a Swedish mile! And, unless we get a total firehose of activity on this and begin to overload the list, how bout you POST your finds instead of sending them to me privately. Might encourage the beehive effect, and bring everyone interested up to speed that much faster. [BTW, didy'all know that this gizmo is even used to "commute" the spark/injection, by replacing the cam sensor? Yeah, it detects which "other" pair of plugs is firing via ionization current, and combined with the crank sensor for the "intersecting pair", determines which cylinder is at TDC on it's power stroke. Cool, eh?] Cheers maties; if we pull THIS one off, we'll have to think seriously about holding some kinda party or sumpin, eh? Could be fun. Gar From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 12:01:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06255 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:01:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06250 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:01:08 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-25.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.94]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id MAA17624 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:00:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Misc 101 Information Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:01:33 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7775$e87b0fe0$5e198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In case you were ever curious, how often the ecm "looks" at things. The ECM never stops polling the sensors. Under certain conditions, it might ignore a measured value though. Here's how often the XYZ ecm samples the inputs: MAP is sampled 160 times a second. O2 is sampled 160 times a second. VSS (MPH) is sampled every VSS pulse (up to 80 times a second.) RPM is computed 80 times a second (in the spark code.) TPS is sampled 80 times a second. Battery voltage is sampled 10 times a second. CTS is sampled 10 times a second. ALDL is sampled 10 times a second. MAT is sampled 10 times a second. MPH is computed 10 times a second. Fuel and spark are computed 80 times a second - on alternate 160 Hz beats Most of these sampled items are filtered, so the value used for further computations won't change as fast as the sample rate Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 12:08:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06481 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:08:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06474 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:08:37 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA18629 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:08:34 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:08:34 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805041608.CAA18629@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: You ALL want to know, don't you... (previously refrigerants) X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu G'Day there, I'll put my comments between yours to make it easy to see what I'm addressing... >I might have been harsh on you in a prior message... however I am one of >those people you mentioned with the perception you are here to leach >informaton, run, and get a patent. While you are entitled to, I thought it >interfered with the overall scope of the list - sharing, working together, >and mutually learning something. No problems. >Don't forget ASCII is a tough medium, its difficult for everyone to really >truly percieve what you are thinking, as no one can see your face, hear the >inflextion in your voice, etc. The reverse is true, you cannot see us. I understand this too. So I thought that it might be a good idea for me to make my intentions clear, for that exact reason. >That aside, I for one would be very interested in your idea, as I'm in the >process of building a twin-turbo V6 Buick and have already started >constructing a refrigerant-based intercooler. The purpose of this style >intercooler is to achieve a constant (and controllable) intake temperature >to the engine, post turbo, which is cold enough to be readily compressable >in a major way. More air, means more fuel, means more power. At least >until the heads blow off. Well, my idea isn't really an intercooler, it's basically a fuel "conditioning" system. However, this aside, if heat energy can be taken from the intercooler (which is going to be run anyway), and used in the fuel conditioning system, then why not do it, instead of wasting that good energy by transfering it to the ambient air... I happen to think that my system would work well with a supercharger (given a few design mod's to my fuel system), but I don't know how well with a turbo, as the exhaust heat should drop significantly, due to otherwise wasted heat being "recycled." However, this aside, by catalytically cracking the fuel (in the presence of hyrogen) to get methane, you then have an octane rating of about 116 to 120. Obviously, this would be better for forced aspirated engines than normal fuel. What's more, methane burns with a lower temperature than normal fuel, and with a higher speed/pressure (or this is what I am told - there are reasons why this was deduced, but I'll have to do a bit of revision on the subject). This would mean that less intercooling would be necessarry. >My test engine, which was a 1986 3.8L FWD engine, certainly not associated >with high performance, I was able to achieve 820HP at 6300 RPM on the dyno >before the rods flew through the side of the engine, using ice water pumped >through an intercooler welded into the intake log, integrated into the >manifold. My final engine will not be that extreme, but you can see where >I'm going, and why I'm interested. WOW! That's not bad at all! I've heard of a 3.1L turbo straight 6 (with a bit of nitrous) getting 670HP, but a 3.8 (is this the V6 Buick - the one that's found in Oz in the Holden Commodore?) getting 820HP (I assume with no nitrous) is nearly past my comprehension, since my 2.8L inline 6 only has 100HP... With my fuel system (with or without the refrigerant) I hope to get a bit more than the measly 100HP, and a bit better fuel economy too... >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >Homebrew Automotive Website: >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HMMWV >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > >- > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 12:24:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06783 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:24:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06779 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:24:23 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA20162 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:24:21 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:24:21 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805041624.CAA20162@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: High MPG X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and money was put into the development of a turbine engine (like the Chrysler one) as has been put into the engines we currently run, the "200 MPG carb" type idea would be a case of "so what!" In the case of the Chrysler turbine, it had a very ingeneous heat transfer drvice that recycled otherwise wasted heat from the exhaust to the intake, thereby making the engine more efficient (this is a bit more difficult with the IC engine to say the least - basically, it has to be stored as chemical potential energy within the fuel, and this can only be done by chemically altering the fuel with an endothermic reaction). The problem that I can see with the heat exchanger is that it didn't exchange enough of the exhaust heat. Obviously, if it exchanged more, with a greater efficiency, the engine would be more efficient - it's basic thermodynamics, and it's even given a name - "Regenerative cycle" ie. recycle waste heat energy to raise the efficiency of the engine. And guess what... It's easiest to do with some sort of turbine. Perhaps someone should revisit the old Chrisler engine and make the heat exchanger more efficient??? Danny Barrett. >>Something you mentioned: I know of Charles Nelson Pogue's "200 MPG carb." >>And I know about the chemistry of how it worked, and why its results were >>not very reliable (I know more about the chemistry of it than he did at the >>time - but this doesn't take much). Asside from this, Pogue stated in an > >Unfortunately, these kind of devices and technology are basically bandaids >to a much greater problem, one of great inefficiency. A pushrod engine is >about as ineffecient as an engine can get, however it does have its merits. > I think once engineers start moving away from a 100 year old design, >things will definately get better mileage wise. I don't have the URLs >handy, however there are two such engines that have strayed away from >pushrods, but replacing the rotating assembly with a giant Cam. The cam, >instead of controlling valve timing, is driven by the pistons, which are >configured in a radial fashion. The one engine that is running (and in the >internet), creates very little horsepower, however the torque it generates >phenominal as compared to its weight, size, and configuration. > >I think pushrod engines waste something in the neighborhood of 80% of the >available power in the gasoline. > > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >Homebrew Automotive Website: >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HMMWV >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > >- > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 12:36:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06937 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:36:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06929 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:36:34 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA16873 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:36:32 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 09:37:17 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <3575ecbd.55547015@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <356fda6b.50857750@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> In-Reply-To: <356fda6b.50857750@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id MAA06930 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 04 May 1998 08:52:48 -0700, garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: >This could give ole EGOR a definitive >challenge to his nascent fameNnotoriety. Now he's gonna have >competition. Sorta like the Red & Yellow MnM bozos. Heh. Just had a thot. To nip the name-groping in the bud, let's start out calling this plasma-baby "ION". So it's currently EGOR and ION for nicknames. That way we can talk about this puppy without repeatedly typing "the Post-Ignition Ionization Current Detection Device/Circuit". EH? So let her be called ION. (Don't the mere mention of her name just make you tingly all over? B) Gar From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 12:50:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07332 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:50:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (qmailr@pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07328 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:49:58 -0400 Received: (qmail 19439 invoked from network); 4 May 1998 10:49:56 -0600 Received: from ts2-10.rpt.cyberhighway.net (209.161.38.51) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 4 May 1998 10:49:56 -0600 Received: by ts2-10.rpt.cyberhighway.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7749.D25DC300@ts2-10.rpt.cyberhighway.net>; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:45:58 -0700 Message-ID: <01BD7749.D25DC300@ts2-10.rpt.cyberhighway.net> From: Mike Jones To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: Holley 4D experiences Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:45:55 -0700 Encoding: 25 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello all: Well, got my boat on the water for the first time with TBI and GT40P heads. What a difference! Instant starts cold and hot, terrific throttle response, much better acceleration and 3 mph increase in top speed (that's a lot for a boat.) Just a couple of minor problems to work through. One involves a too-high idle speed when operating closed-loop. Should be easily solveable. The second problem goes like this: Running at full throttle produces 4000 rpms. Backing down to 3800 rpms briefly, and then applying full throttle brings up 4150-4200 rpms, which then decays over three-four seconds back to 4000 rpms. The high speed jet control is nearly maxed out. I'm going to try increased fuel pressure next. Mounting the O2 sensor in the crossover passage seems to basically work fine. Acceleration, top speed and part-throttle cruise were all unchanged or improved from open-loop (although that placement may be contributing to the high closed-loop idle speed. Something I have to look at yet.) Hopefully I'll have an opportunity to take it out again this week with a friend who's not so antsy to get home! Mike J. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 13:05:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07577 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:05:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07571 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:05:30 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-25.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.94]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id NAA07379 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:04:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: High MPG Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:05:54 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd777e$e621c780$5e198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Danny Barrett To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 12:55 PM Subject: Re: High MPG >Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and money was put into the development of a turbine engine (like the Chrysler one) as has been put into the engines we currently run, the "200 MPG carb" type idea would be a case of "so what!" In the case of the Chrysler turbine, it had a very ingeneous heat transfer drvice that recycled otherwise wasted heat from the exhaust to the intake, thereby making the engine more efficient (this is a bit more difficult with the IC engine to say the least - basically, it has to be stored as chemical potential energy within the fuel, and this can only >be done by chemically altering the fuel with an endothermic reaction). The problem that I can see with the heat exchanger is that it didn't exchange enough of the exhaust heat. Obviously, if it exchanged more, with a greater efficiency, the engine would be more efficient - it's basic thermodynamics, and it's even given a name - "Regenerative cycle" ie. recycle waste heat >energy to raise the efficiency of the engine. And guess what... It's easiest >to do with some sort of turbine. Perhaps someone should revisit the old >Chrisler engine and make the heat exchanger more efficient??? > >Danny Barrett. > > The most impressive moment I had around the Chy Turbine car was standing behind it, and the ambient temp rising from 60-70F to well over 100, very quickly. Maybe an over impression of youth but it made ya walk away in a hurrry. Bruce From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 13:06:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07599 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:06:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07595 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:06:10 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA24743 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:06:09 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 03:06:09 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805041706.DAA24743@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sounds good to me... Do you think you would be able to adapt it for old 6 cyl engines??? >Hey Maties. > >I been keepin this under me hat for a while, but thot I'd spill the >beans and max out the fun, now that I have a Lab Rat working. Member >that thread awhile back about using the post-spark ionization current to >detect detonation and misfires? Well, one of our illustrious members, >whose initials are Jim Crance (golly, I hope he doesn't mind taking a >bow), who's also a fellow pilot, got aholdOme and said he had a slightly >marginal Trionic Ignition/Ionization unit from Saab that worked fine >excpet it hickup'd whenever it was in a deep freeze, and would I like to >have a look? Jim's a Saab (& other Euro's) Mech. So I got the thang last >week before last, along with a nice Saab 9000 manual Jim sent along, and >danged if it don't look feasible to diy. > >The assembly's epoxy potted, so limits my snooping to watching it fly >from the outside (just as well), but like I said before, I figure >ANYTHING that's being mass deployed in the commercial auto market has >GOT to be diy'able; otherwise anything twitchy/complicated/sensitive >isn't gonna make it, and Saab's apparently been using this technology >since '93!! Does this remind you at all of EGOR? > >So, here's the plan. Just like before, instead of 'cheating' and looking >inside, we'll use the same approach as on EGOR, and try to LEARN how it >works, with yous guys help, like before. Now, since I'm not a member of >SAE, and I see they want a $100/yr subscription JUST to search their >Paper's bibliography, I am soliciting help in locating any/all >articles/info on this system. I can't imagine Saab not touting it >upon/in-prep-for it's introduction in '93, so there have GOT to be some >interesting/useful papers available. Soooo, any of yous guys with a >moment and a membership in SAE, could you start the ball rolling by >doing a search in the SAE Bibliography for any hits on the following >known good keywords: > Saab AND Trionic, "Ignition Discharge Module", Ionization, etc. > >The manual Jim sent me says "The Saab Trionic system was introduced in >1993 on Saab 9000 models fitted with the B234L engine." The manual >itself if for '96, and assuming they're still using this Trionic stuff >in '98, that means the thang's been deployed for 5 years. That oughta be >enough to convince anyone it works, I would guess. [Saab sells alot of >them Turbo 9000's, don't it? At any rate I sure see alot of them here in >Calif. A fan of the yuppie crowd, ifyaknowadamean.] > >Finally, Fair Use allows us the privilege of posting a few of the key >pages from the manual to wet your appetite, so I'll scan a couple in and >post them up on the FTP site. This could give ole EGOR a definitive >challenge to his nascent fameNnotoriety. Now he's gonna have >competition. Sorta like the Red & Yellow MnM bozos. Heh. > >Let's get'er rollin, dudes. Cuz this tech sure looks like it beats the >acoustic knock detection schemes by a Swedish mile! And, unless we get a >total firehose of activity on this and begin to overload the list, how >bout you POST your finds instead of sending them to me privately. Might >encourage the beehive effect, and bring everyone interested up to speed >that much faster. [BTW, didy'all know that this gizmo is even used to >"commute" the spark/injection, by replacing the cam sensor? Yeah, it >detects which "other" pair of plugs is firing via ionization current, >and combined with the crank sensor for the "intersecting pair", >determines which cylinder is at TDC on it's power stroke. Cool, eh?] > >Cheers maties; if we pull THIS one off, we'll have to think seriously >about holding some kinda party or sumpin, eh? Could be fun. > >Gar > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 13:08:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07685 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:08:46 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mercury.csc.com (po2.csc.com [20.1.10.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07681 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:08:43 -0400 From: jdzura@csc.com Received: from va-fch34.vtc.csc.com ([20.1.6.97] helo=csc.com) by mercury.csc.com with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu id 0yWOin-0001Nn-00; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:08:09 -0400 Received: by csc.com(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP MTA v1.1.04 (495.1 10-24-1997)) id 852565FA.005E0F09 ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:07:22 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CSC To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <852565FA.005D7EC0.00@csc.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:02:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Misc 101 Information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have been following the posts with interest, but the one thing I have not seen is what processor is run in the thing? Joe nacelp@bright.net on 05/04/98 12:01:33 PM Please respond to diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: (bcc: Joe Dzura/SED/CSC) Subject: Misc 101 Information In case you were ever curious, how often the ecm "looks" at things. The ECM never stops polling the sensors. Under certain conditions, it might ignore a measured value though. Here's how often the XYZ ecm samples the inputs: MAP is sampled 160 times a second. O2 is sampled 160 times a second. VSS (MPH) is sampled every VSS pulse (up to 80 times a second.) RPM is computed 80 times a second (in the spark code.) TPS is sampled 80 times a second. Battery voltage is sampled 10 times a second. CTS is sampled 10 times a second. ALDL is sampled 10 times a second. MAT is sampled 10 times a second. MPH is computed 10 times a second. Fuel and spark are computed 80 times a second - on alternate 160 Hz beats Most of these sampled items are filtered, so the value used for further computations won't change as fast as the sample rate Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 13:12:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07827 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:12:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail1-b.microsoft.com (mail1-b.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07823 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:12:31 -0400 Received: by INET-IMC-01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2166.0) id ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:12:01 -0700 Message-ID: From: Don Berry To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:11:59 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2166.0) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anyone considered use a DSP (digital signal processor) for acoustic knock detection? I understand that they can actually operate with a negative signal to noise ratio. Don ...and no, my Chevy does NOT run Windows! ;^) -----Original Message----- snip Cuz this tech sure looks like it beats the acoustic knock detection schemes by a Swedish mile! From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 13:18:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08001 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:18:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07994 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:18:24 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-25.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.94]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id NAA11382 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:17:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Programming 101 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:18:48 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7780$b3837ce0$5e198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Again, please read all past postings in reference to Programming 101. (as written this current ecm is the gm 1227747). Again this is for educational purposes. Performing table modifications as mentioned herein may violate local/state/federal laws if done to a vehicle. Any ecm table/code modifications can do damage to an engine. Do not attempt these modifications unless under adult supervision. I have no formal electronics training and this information seems to be true to me. If you find fault with any of this please e-mail me, (my address is nacelp@bright.net) so I might be able to research, and correct any errors that I make. When quoting this article, please edit your reply (of this material). Today's two tables are both coolant temp dependent ones. One being for cranking fuel, which is at 044A-0458, and idle fuel vs temp at 05F5-0605. Now that they have been posted in the 332 incoming area for about a week I'd think everyone has gotten a copy of GMER, and delco edit. If you haven't then this is the time to. Looking at gmer will give you a sense of exactly what tables look like, and how they vary, and getting delco edit will let ya see what they look like in prom form, ie hex editor. As I mentioned before some of the tables are preceeded by offsets so just before a large table you might see a group of entries like 00 40 0F. That would correspond to a 0 rpm offset, an 40 MAP related offset, and a table with a column width of 15 entries. So now, you can look at a dissassemblied prom file like at ludis's site, and compare that to what tables look like in an editor, and use delco edit. There now you have all the basics for looking at tables, finding tables, and editing tables. If you search the archives for Tables, Maps, tuneup, you then have the info for how to monitor changes ya make, and what approximate values to change how much. Granted we still need to discuss some more math, but at least now, everyone can get up to speed on where to at least start to look for a table. What tables look like in a proper editor, and how to take a raw hex file, and manipulate it into an orangized file, and included in delco edit is a hex to dec conversion, and also a factor conversion so if you want to make the *90/255, you would just hit F and then .352 and all of the file or your table would be expressed in degrees. If anyone has any tables, locations or anything they would like to share in ref to any gm ecm, I'd invite them to post it to the list, or write me, with that information. Again I would like to thank those who have contributed to making this possible, and again say that I did not discover any of this but rather am reporting it, as I understand things. If you are having trouble understanding any or all of this your probably not alone, so write me, and I'll try to better explain these matters. HTH Bruce From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 13:41:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08583 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:41:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (qmailr@pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08579 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:41:20 -0400 Received: (qmail 32324 invoked from network); 4 May 1998 11:41:18 -0600 Received: from ts2-10.rpt.cyberhighway.net (209.161.38.51) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 4 May 1998 11:41:18 -0600 Received: by ts2-10.rpt.cyberhighway.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7750.FEE2FE20@ts2-10.rpt.cyberhighway.net>; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:37:19 -0700 Message-ID: <01BD7750.FEE2FE20@ts2-10.rpt.cyberhighway.net> From: Mike Jones To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: High MPG Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:37:13 -0700 Encoding: 33 TEXT, 57 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Solar Turbines, which is a unit of Caterpillar, has just launched a 4000 - 5000 kW machine that uses recuperation (or regenertaion, take your pick) to pick up some 10% in efficiency. Now 40% simple-cycle vs. 30% previously. Recuperation is not new certainly, but Solar may be the first to re arrange components to more logically package the recuperator (the inlet and exhaust are located at the center of the engine.) Mike J. >>Danny Barrett wrote: Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and money was put into the development of a turbine engine (like the Chrysler one) as has been put into the engines we currently run, the "200 MPG carb" type idea would be a case of "so what!" In the case of the Chrysler turbine, it had a very ingeneous heat transfer drvice that recycled otherwise wasted heat from the exhaust to the intake, thereby making the engine more efficient (this is a bit more difficult with the IC engine to say the least - basically, it has to be stored as chemical potential energy within the fuel, and this can only be done by chemically altering the fuel with an endothermic reaction). The problem that I can see with the heat exchanger is that it didn't exchange enough of the exhaust heat. Obviously, if it exchanged more, with a greater efficiency, the engine would be more efficient - it's basic thermodynamics, and it's even given a name - "Regenerative cycle" ie. recycle waste heat energy to raise the efficiency of the engine. And guess what... It's easiest to do with some sort of turbine. Perhaps someone should revisit the old Chrisler engine and make the heat exchanger more efficient??? Danny Barrett.>> begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A,2`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M]`1X`< `!````#0```%)%.B!(:6=H($U01P`````"`7$``0```!8````! MO7>+I[?7>UJJXVD1T:.@`* DT3H'```>`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X` M'PP!````&0```')M:F]N97- 8WEB97)H:6=H=V%Y+FYE= `````#``80-5PV M_0,`!Q! !0``'@`($ $```!E````4T],05)455)"24Y%4RQ72$E#2$E3055. M251/1D-!5$524$E,3$%2+$A!4TI54U1,055.0TA%1$$T,# P+34P,#!+5TU! M0TA)3D542$%455-%4U)%0U5015)!5$E/3BA/4E)%1P`````"`0D0`0```)(% M``".!0``C D``$Q:1G4*_ 'O_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0"`&-H"L!S M971N,@8`!L,"@S(#Q0(`<-QR<1(@!Q,"@S,#QA/H(C0/>FAE; ,@1&SJ9P*# M-12=?0J ",\)V0\"@ J!#;$+8&YG,3#>,Q2 "PH74@P!8PW@!@!K!O *P50( M<&(+@ >0+% @=VAI$; @! `@&&$@=0,`!4!O9B#H0V%T!)!P`Q 8'#<(',#<")0&P`E'A #H(\-P1W@") @@'DN( >P7F\' MX"$`)R `D&T+4&6*+2?P8RD`('9S*!!F,R<1$Y!E=B.@(!!LS2@"4B,J'B%N M;P5 '7 U!^!C)'-N*I =H&)U]P5 ',0`P'DM`")2(E GD-\1X 5 )@$9,!Y M M.CPO/3@V_S@#,S8Y=]<4@AQ4/4=9'8))'D )PM4H$$D#H&8`T'1%8B)P/PN M)F B4'0=-#9E(]"'.# E(2XB0VAR>2J _S72 M'7 EX!_1'\$*A2WP"?#W2CPV= 0@=R^!"' 9, (PW3%!_],)1V@'I$1P"#!"H5+,$W0?R15' %0 /P(G#9+A-)0TR6)@%S+<$N(O!D7T622(9,!VA_7A#( G!'P)_5B>'4@1,I>]45V1](5 > MD"<$(&R#8L/Q!&%Y;F%QL1V0"H4SHO^'\TLA`Z P\(JB'E")(2)0_2%0(BK@ M)$,C@4LP+% I0O]3, B0*!! Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08665 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:44:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [207.25.206.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08660 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:44:05 -0400 Received: from dilbert (pix-235.nordson.com [207.206.59.235]) by users.qual.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/CICnet/IAG) with SMTP id NAA17117 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <032001bd7783$c28ec700$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> From: "Gary Derian" To: Subject: Re: High MPG Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:40:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The efficiency, in terms of fuel used for power generated, of an internal combustion engine has to do with expansion ratio, combustion temperature and pumping loss. 2 valve, 4 valve, pushrod, OHC, etc have little or no effect on efficiency. High winding multi valve engines get more power per displacement but not necessarily more power per weight or cost. Maybe you con't like pushrods, or they are aesthetically displeasing to you but they are certainly not less efficient. A gasoline engine wastes only 60% of the energy in gasoline when operated at full throttle. It wastes 80% at part throttle where it operates like a big vacuum pump with a leak and it wastes 100% at idle. Multi-valve and overhead cams don't change these numbers. Gas turbines, steam, rotary, etc generally do worse. The road to improvement is paved with reduced heat loss from exhaust and cooling. Ceramic parts which operate without cooling and greater expansion ratios can reduce this energy wastage. None of which has anything to do with pushrods. Gary Derian >I think pushrod engines waste something in the neighborhood of 80% of the >available power in the gasoline. > >Frederic Breitwieser From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 13:51:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08923 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:51:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08917 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:51:38 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-25.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.94]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id NAA21768 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:50:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Holley 4D experiences Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:52:01 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7785$576a9380$5e198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Mike Jones To: 'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 1:35 PM Subject: Holley 4D experiences >Well, got my boat on the water for the first time with TBI and GT40P heads. What a difference! Instant starts cold and hot, terrific throttle >response, much better acceleration and 3 mph increase in top speed (that's a lot for a boat.) >Just a couple of minor problems to work through. One involves a too-high idle speed when operating closed-loop. Should be easily solveable. >The second problem goes like this: Running at full throttle produces 4000 rpms. Backing down to 3800 rpms briefly, and then applying full throttle brings up 4150-4200 rpms, which then decays over three-four seconds back to 4000 rpms. The high speed jet control is nearly maxed out. I'm going to try increased fuel pressure next. > >Mounting the O2 sensor in the crossover passage seems to basically work fine. Acceleration, top speed and part-throttle cruise were all unchanged or improved from open-loop (although that placement may be contributing to the high closed-loop idle speed. Something I have to look at yet.) > >Mike J. > Use anything ya got til the Wide Ratio O2 sensor is done, but like a DVM, and see what ya got for WOT O2 voltage. Doin plug cuts onna boat never worked for me, since the prop always made the motor spin down too slowly. Ya might just use a dwell meter (like for setting points [ya remember them, right?]), and hook that on the ecm side of the injectors and make sure the ecm isn't reducing the injector on time (the dwell would decrease if it is).. Did that sytyem have a MAP?. One other thought hook a vacuum guage to the manifold and see if after a few minutes that it isn't generating a vac, at WOT, and that isn't the problem. Like the restrictor plate engines at continious WOT. TB, might be too small for continued WOT. Bruce From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 13:56:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09053 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:56:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imes.com ([209.184.4.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09047 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:55:57 -0400 Received: from elvis by imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA26759; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:58:02 -0500 Message-ID: <354DB818.7924@imes.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 12:44:08 +0000 From: steve ravet Organization: International Meta Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Refrigerants References: <199805031016.UAA23598@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Danny Barrett wrote: > > Does anyone out there know anything about refrigerants? I need to know if > there are any refrigerants (or series thereof) that will work between about > 20 deg C, and about 500 to 600 deg C. This might not sound like EFI to me, > but I am working on an invention that has everything to do with EFI, and the > use of such refrigerants would make this device much better. Sorry, I can't > disclose what the invention is at the moment, as I might want to take out a > patent in the future (NOTE: This invention has nothing to do with water > injection, of which I am currently discussing with various prople). Thanks. > > Danny Barrett. Wow, 1000 messges on diy-efi about refrigerants... Anyway, I haven't seen an answer yet, so here's one place to look: www.autofrost.com/ptchart2.pdf It's a ->large<- PDF pressure/temp chart that lists what appears to be every refrigerant ever. there are also Word and Excel versions. --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve@imes.com From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 13:57:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09138 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:57:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from megahertz.njit.edu (megahertz.njit.edu [128.235.251.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09130 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:57:50 -0400 Received: from localhost (jwi0939@localhost) by megahertz.njit.edu (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA01907; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:57:47 -0400 (EDT) From: justin w ivan und stnt To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu, frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Subject: Re: Junkyard shopping In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980504094946.007b79a0@xephic.dynip.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I was wondering if you guys came across any volkswagens in your junk yard shopping. I am contemplating doing some engine swaps but am having a hard time finding donor cars. I am located in NJ but willing to travel the coast and Penn for the right place. I'd appreciate it if you guys could let me know the scope of vw's you see at the yards. Thanks Justin Ivan From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 13:57:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09144 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:57:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09140 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:57:52 -0400 Received: from megahertz.njit.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA04487; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:57:52 -0400 Received: from localhost (jwi0939@localhost) by megahertz.njit.edu (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA01907; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:57:47 -0400 (EDT) From: justin w ivan und stnt To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu, frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Subject: Re: Junkyard shopping In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980504094946.007b79a0@xephic.dynip.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I was wondering if you guys came across any volkswagens in your junk yard shopping. I am contemplating doing some engine swaps but am having a hard time finding donor cars. I am located in NJ but willing to travel the coast and Penn for the right place. I'd appreciate it if you guys could let me know the scope of vw's you see at the yards. Thanks Justin Ivan From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 14:10:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09341 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:10:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09335 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:10:15 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-25.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.94]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id OAA27664 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:09:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Misc 101 Information Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:10:39 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7787$f191dac0$5e198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: jdzura@csc.com To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 1:55 PM Subject: Re: Misc 101 Information >I have been following the posts with interest, but the one thing I have not seen >is what processor is run in the thing? > >Joe > The 1227747 is in the C-3 generation of gm ecm's which all use, a Motorola 6809 type of device, and the newer P-4's use a 68HC11 type. The "type" is that, it is to gm specs, and there are small differences from a ecm processor to a off the self device, as I understand things. Bruce With todays current fashion statements ya almost have to have reversable Cone Shaped Hats.. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 14:14:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09398 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:14:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imes.com ([209.184.4.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09394 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:14:34 -0400 Received: from elvis by imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA27006; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:16:39 -0500 Message-ID: <354DBC76.48D8@imes.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:02:46 +0000 From: steve ravet Organization: International Meta Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: WATER INJECTION References: <199805030554.PAA02787@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Danny Barrett wrote: > > Well Gents, it seems we have a difinative answer. Thankyou Zack. So, now > that it has been shown that the steam WILL stay vaporised (which was the > opposite of my prediction), can anyone come up with anything that will show > whether the steam's maximum partial pressure will be before or after TDC? > Also, what if we were to inject the water at say 90 deg C (194 deg F). It > has not yet boiled, but it has gone nearly all the way to boiling, so the > energy completely lost due to latent heat of evaporation will be lowered as > much as possible? This way, we will not be injecting an "inert gas" but a > liquid that is just about ready to flash to a vapor. Please bear in mind > that the water would be heated by the exhaust manifold. Danny, the thing is that most of the energy is absorbed when the water turns to steam. The phase changes (ice to water, water to steam) are what absorb the energy, not raising the temp of the water in the same phase. If you can find a thermo book, it has graphs that make it all very clear. Bottom line is, it doesn't matter how close you are to boiling. --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve@imes.com From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 14:24:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09599 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:24:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.wgn.net (root@mail.wgn.net [207.213.0.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09594 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:24:11 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (du477-pcap-nca01.wgn.net [207.213.6.223]) by mail.wgn.net (8.8.5-q-beta2/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03790 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:24:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199805041824.LAA03790@mail.wgn.net> X-Sender: sganz@mail.wgn.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:27:13 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Sandy Subject: RE: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id OAA09595 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Check the TI web site, they have a sample paper and design with one. Sandy At 10:11 AM 5/4/98 -0700, you wrote: > Has anyone considered use a DSP (digital signal processor) >for acoustic knock detection? I understand that they can actually operate >with a negative signal to noise ratio. > > Don > > ...and no, my Chevy does NOT run Windows!  ;^) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > snip > > > Cuz this tech sure looks like it beats the acoustic knock >detection schemes by a Swedish mile! > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 14:35:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09762 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:35:46 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imes.com ([209.184.4.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09757 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:35:43 -0400 Received: from elvis by imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA27324; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:37:49 -0500 Message-ID: <354DC16C.7220@imes.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:23:56 +0000 From: steve ravet Organization: International Meta Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Refrigerants, Wide range EGO and other thoughts. References: <002001bd775e$6f096600$06c05196@odin.mavrik.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thor Johnson wrote: > > > Refrigerants > > > > Sounds like someone is trying to adapt the ammonia absorption > cycle > > refrigeration system to use as an intercooler. What is > interesting is that > > although this cycle is less "efficient" at cooling than a > compressed gas > > cycle, it gets it's pumping energy from heat - in the case of > a propane RV > > refrigerator from a small propane flame, or in this case from > the waste heat > > of the exhaust. The problem is probably the exhaust > temperatures raise the > > ammonia/water solution past the efficient working range and > the gentleman is > > looking for another absorption cycle fluid that will work in > this range. > > You have any good sources of info on the ammonia cycle? I'm a > nuts&bolts guy who would like to build one for the heck of it.... > (An EE that likes to play with the ME's toys ;). Get on Deja News, and do a search on ammonia refrigerators. You'll come up with a lot of posts in rec.boating of all places, including one that explains ammonia fridges in detail. The author's name is Rod McInnis. A mixture of water and ammonia is heated in a column. Because of different boiling points, one end of the column is mostly ammonia, the other end is mostly water. The two are separated, and pumped into the fridge. When water and ammonia mix, the temperature of the mix goes way down. It's a physical process, not a chemical one, that I cannot remember the name of right now. The mixture never changes pressure, so there is no compresor. The only energy input is a flame or electric heat to boil the mixture. In an RV, there isn't even a pump, the system is cleverly designed so that the gravity causes the mixture to circulate. That won't work in a car with lateral G forces, but there's no reason why you couldn't add a small pump to circulate the mixture. It's been mentioned before here, it seems like it would be a good way to use exhaust heat to cool the incoming mixture. The only thing is that the ammonia mixture is very stong (poisonous), much stronger than cleaning products. --steve > > TIA, > -Thor Johnson > thormj@iname.com -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve@imes.com From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 14:47:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10115 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:47:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mffvlexc1.mccain.ca ([198.164.100.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10111 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:47:06 -0400 Received: by mffvlexc1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:48:03 -0300 Message-ID: From: "BUTLER, Tom" To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Refrigerants Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:48:03 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Wouldn't be a super-duper intercooler would it? > -----Original Message----- > From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au > [SMTP:danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au] > Sent: Sunday, May 03, 1998 7:17 AM > To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Refrigerants > > Does anyone out there know anything about refrigerants? I need to know > if > there are any refrigerants (or series thereof) that will work between > about > 20 deg C, and about 500 to 600 deg C. This might not sound like EFI to > me, > but I am working on an invention that has everything to do with EFI, > and the > use of such refrigerants would make this device much better. Sorry, I > can't > disclose what the invention is at the moment, as I might want to take > out a > patent in the future (NOTE: This invention has nothing to do with > water > injection, of which I am currently discussing with various prople). > Thanks. > > Danny Barrett. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 14:59:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10411 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:59:03 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10403 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:59:01 -0400 Received: from scottmo (pdx59-i48-43.teleport.com [204.202.167.249]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA21574 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <354E0FB6.F43@teleport.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:57:58 -0700 From: "Scott Mo." X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? References: <356fda6b.50857750@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > So, here's the plan. Just like before, instead of 'cheating' and >looking inside, we'll use the same approach as on EGOR, and try to >LEARN how it works, with yous guys help, like before. Now, since I'm >not a member of SAE, and I see they want a $100/yr subscription JUST to >search their Paper's bibliography, Just a quick comment, IMHO $100 a year to get the SAE Automotive Engineering magazine and to be able to search the technical paper listing archives on line is CHEAP! compared to the time you will spend trying to figure out this stuff on your own. Best $100 you will ever spend..... >I am soliciting help in locating any/all > articles/info on this system. I can't imagine Saab not touting it > upon/in-prep-for it's introduction in '93, so there have GOT to be some > interesting/useful papers available. Soooo, any of yous guys with a > moment and a membership in SAE, could you start the ball rolling by > doing a search in the SAE Bibliography for any hits on the following > known good keywords: Here are some SAE Technical papers that came up during a quick search on SAAB, these technical papers can often be found on microfiche in most university libraries or you can order them directly from SAE at 412-776-4970 or go to their web site http://www.sae.org/PRODSERV/papers/paprinfo/pap_indx.htm Document Number:970854 Title: Closed loop ignition control by ionization current interpretation Publication Date:Feb 1997 Author(s):Eriksson, Lars; Nielsen, Lars; Glavenius, Mikael Book containing this paper(s):SP-1236 Index Terms:Ignition controllers; Ions; Pressure measurement; Real time control; Spark timing Document Number:960045 Title:Ignition control by ionization current interpretation Publication Date: Feb 1996 Author(s):Eriksson, Lars; Nielsen, Lars; Nytomt, Jan Book containing this paper(s):SP-1149 Index Terms:Ignition; Ignition controllers; Spark ignition engines; Ignition timing; Cylinder pressure;Performance Here is another that may have some info. Document Number:890044 Title:Saab direct ignition system and its cold start performance Publication Date:1989 There are a lot of other articles on ionization measurements that I can list at a later date, just don't have the time to do it now. HTH -- Scott Mo. 1989 200TQ 1988 5000TQ 1966 VW Beetle http://www.teleport.com/~scottmo From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 15:16:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10779 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:16:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10766 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:16:04 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA04804; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:16:01 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAD00258 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 15:14:22 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:14:22 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041914.PAD00258@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504145745.007a89d0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:57:45 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: High MPG In-Reply-To: <032001bd7783$c28ec700$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Ceramic parts which operate without cooling and greater expansion ratios can >reduce this energy wastage. None of which has anything to do with pushrods. Hello Gary, I didn't mean to imply that the pushrods are the culprit, I was merely commenting that the 100 year old design has outlived its practicality, and that new engineering should take place. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 15:16:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10780 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:16:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10764 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:16:03 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA04798; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:15:54 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAC00258 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 15:14:19 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:14:19 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041914.PAC00258@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504145434.007bb360@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:54:34 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: carbonated mineral water In-Reply-To: <199805041543.BAA15976@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Sure it isn't "buRger," not "buger?" Or did you mean a "hot bugger of a >grill?" :-) I type fast, and sometimes mistype. Burger, as in "Friendly's". Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 15:16:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10778 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:16:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10765 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:16:03 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA04801; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:15:57 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAE00258 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 15:14:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:14:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041914.PAE00258@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504145848.007becb0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:58:48 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Water in the Turbo In-Reply-To: <199805041539.BAA15570@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Very good point. So if water is injected, it must be TOTALLY converted into >DRY, SUPERHEATED STEAM before it gets to the turbo... Yes. Water droplets hitting the blades at 100000 RPM is much like pouring sand into the turbo. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 15:23:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10851 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:23:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from partech.com (partech.com [206.114.186.31]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10847 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:22:56 -0400 Received: from claven.partech.com (claven.partech.com [172.16.16.1]) by partech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA04220 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cliff.partech.com by claven.partech.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA21985; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:24:15 -0400 Received: by cliff.partech.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:25:18 -0600 Message-Id: From: Jim Velasquez To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Cc: pft101@psu.edu Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V3 #190 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:25:16 -0600 X-Priority: 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu OK, I'll throw in my 2cents worth: I'm looking to set up a DIY_EFI on my big block Pontiac, and would be willing to have someone pull a complete harness and ECM for me. I'm just starting this project, so I might even set up the system 'on the bench' ala the 101 stuff happening elsewhere on the list... First off, where are you located? It wouldn't be worth it if shipping parts was excessively expensive. Isn't PSU penn state? Also, to the list: What would everyone suggest as the best GM ECM for setting up a port-injected poncho? I thought that a first guess would be one from a GM 454 (should be close to correct values in ECM), or a 2nd choice would be from a port-injected V8. Paul, if you'd be willing to do the removal, I'd pay a reasonable markup- enough to at least make it 'worth your while'. If your local yards have reasonable enough prices, I may even be interested in other pieces like a complete intake for the above mentioned injected 454 (and, though I hate to admit it, I might even be willing to do a TBI as a first project...). Also, I'm looking for people who might be scrounging for other parts I might be interested in for my setup... Thinks like TH200-4Rs (a 4-speed RWD auto trans with old-style BOP mounting... perfect for updating a '72 firebird...). Or, if they come across '70-'72 firebirds perhaps other parts as well... I'm sure that I'm asking way too much of a volunteer; but, as I said: I'd be willing to pay some **reasonable** level of markup. Regards... Jim Velasquez >From: Paul Tholey >Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:02:51 -0400 >Subject: Junkyard shopping > >Shannen, > > Can a 3rd party enter this? What are 7730 ECM's worth to you? I >have a local U-Pull-It yard and I would gladly pull stuff for people. The >ECM's are cake to pull, but a harness takes me at least 3 hours to pull >right. I am sure there are people faster than me, but that is not the issue. > This goes out to the rest of the list too. School is ending, only >for 1 month, finally will be graduating after summer classes :^) So if I >can spend my days in the yard pulling stuff for people, and keeping an eye >on all of the "fresh kills", this really would be a great summer vacation! > >Paul Tholey > >At 09:47 PM 5/3/98 -0600, you wrote: >>David wrote: >>> >>> Your prices seem high. >>> >>> The local pick it yourself charges $ 25.00 for the ECU and $ 5.00 to 10.00 >>> for the harness depending who is collecting money that day. >>> >>> David >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Shannen Durphey >>> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >>> Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 2:07 AM >>> Subject: Re: 101 Stuff >>> >>> |Bruce Plecan wrote: >>> |> >>> |> We here at CSH., HQ., are experiencing a technical problem. >>> |> While slightly off list, the edge is blurring here between personal >>> |> and 101 projects. Anyway, we need a couple things. 1. a set >>> |> of ecm connectors like used on the 747's (it used two connectors), >>> |> 2. a set off a 730 type ecm (it had three connectors), with like a >>> |> foot (preferably more) of wire on them for doing some bench work. >>> |> 3. Then a entire harness outta like a 90-91 2.8 Celebrity, or any other >>> |> 1227730 ecm equipped car. Not looking for freebies, just resonable >>> |> priced ones. >>> |> Nor a worry mate. >>> |> Bruce >>> | >>> | >>> |What's reasonable? Local bone yard sells harnesses for $50, >>> |and ECM for $50. Can maybe get both for $75, but seems high >>> |to me. If interested, I'll make some calls. >>> | >>> |Shannen >>> | >>I'll call you on that. When you have a harness and ECM from >>86-91 chev pickup (1227747 ecm) let me know. I'm sure >>there's a deal in there. >> >>Or, when you have the harness and ECM from 2.8l 1227730 car, >>the same applies. >> >>Shannen ================================================================= Jim Velasquez | email: jim_velasquez@partech.com Senior C/S Support Analyst - | phone: (303)444-0120 ext.5683 ParTech Inc. NYSE: (PTC) | cellular: (303)641-4546 5757 Central Ave. | URL: http://www.partech.com/ Boulder CO 80301 | 24x7 Pager:303 444 0120 ext.5684 ================================================================= From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 15:27:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10938 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:27:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10934 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:27:53 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA04820; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:27:52 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00087 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 15:26:22 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:26:22 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805041926.PAA00087@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504152627.007bc6d0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:26:27 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: 3.8L screamers In-Reply-To: <199805041608.CAA18629@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >WOW! That's not bad at all! I've heard of a 3.1L turbo straight 6 (with a >bit of nitrous) getting 670HP, but a 3.8 (is this the V6 Buick - the one >that's found in Oz in the Holden Commodore?) getting 820HP (I assume with no The test was to determine how much power the block could take, how much boost could run, and how much octane I needed. The engine was from a front-wheel drive 3.8L Buick LeSabre, not a Buick GN. I was suprised at the figures myself, and the engine ran about 20 minutes on the Dyno before parts became projectiles. In order to hold the block together, one needs a stage II block, a block girdle, and a variety of other clamping goodies. The ice water intercooling idea was to really see how much boost we could run. We kept the water at 40 degrees, using a fish tank, a bilge pump, and an aluminum oil cooler welded into the airstream (manifold). The final version of this will be a 4.1L RWD block, with the aluminum custom manifold (I have it partially built already), using refrigerant to cool the water running through the intercooler. This cools the air, compresses the intake charge, and hopefully for short bursts of power, the air compressor won't have to run constantly, just after the shot power bursts. Since it takes a while to for the water to heat up (it has to circulate), the cold water can hold the coolness during hard bursts of power, then be cooled down when the load is light and the A/C compressor can run again. IN theory :) Talk to me in about a year, and I'll let you know if I wasted 200lbs of crap or not :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 16:02:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11641 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:02:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11637 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:02:12 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA24604 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:02:12 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:02:57 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <357f17fc.66618750@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <356fda6b.50857750@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <354E0FB6.F43@teleport.com> In-Reply-To: <354E0FB6.F43@teleport.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id QAA11638 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 04 May 1998 11:57:58 -0700, "Scott Mo." wrote: >Just a quick comment, IMHO $100 a year to get the SAE Automotive >Engineering magazine and to be able to search the technical paper >listing archives on line is CHEAP! compared to the time you will spend >trying to figure out this stuff on your own. Best $100 you will ever >spend... Well, I'm not being cheap (no one's EVER accused me of that yet), I just find the SAE's practice of charging, and sometimes charging a LOT, even from it's members, a tad penurious. I'm a member of the IEEE in my trade, and we don't have any such onerous pick-pocketing as yous guys seem to take fer granted. I mean sheesh, EVEN if you ARE a member of SAE, it costs you $50/yr to have access to the backward Bibliography via WebDex?! Come on, this is a great way to send a message you see your members as a bunch of cash cows. Sorry, just my attitude about professional societies; it's a society, not a racket. I don't wanna have to pay for every breath I take. MY trade, EE, doesn't seem to need to stoop to such nickleNdime tactics. What exactly about the automotive engineer makes him look like a sucker waiting to be fleeced at every turn? Sorry to take such a spin, especially since you were kind enough to post these references for the project, but this whole idea of secrecy, charging each other for every tidbit of info, and making everything smell like some smarmy boy's club just gets my shorts in an uproar real fast. I'm a firm believer in intellectual property, but treating every whisper and every thot and every relationship and every published research paper as a revenue source just sours the whole eXperience for me. We might as well try to charge each other on this group, fees for every post we put out that someone else reads. What the hell's the matter with us as a race lately, to make the "commercial model" the be-all end-all of human experience. Do we really all wanna be just like Billy Gates or Jimmy the Pimp, and look upon everybody as a "mark" and mere source of "revenue"? The SAE is a non-profit organization, supposedly, but you sure couldn't tell it by watching them sell their wares. Growl. Like I said before, if you wanna get a good flavor for this attitude, just ask yourself "what your own Mother has done for you lately." We keep this idea up, and we'll obliterate from our societies even the very concept of comradery, fellowship, and even friendship. A workman is worthy of his wages, it's true, but don't drag the "hireling" attitude into your personal and professional relationships, unless you wanna dry up like some mosquito on a deserted island. >Here are some SAE Technical papers that came up during a quick search on >SAAB Thanks. Very generous of you. I do appreciate it. ION thanks you, too. B) Gargrumpy > Document Number:970854 > Title: > Closed loop ignition control by ionization current interpretation > Publication Date:Feb 1997 > Author(s):Eriksson, Lars; Nielsen, Lars; Glavenius, Mikael > Book containing this paper(s):SP-1236 > Index Terms:Ignition controllers; Ions; Pressure measurement; Real >time control; Spark timing > > > Document Number:960045 > Title:Ignition control by ionization current interpretation > Publication Date: Feb 1996 > Author(s):Eriksson, Lars; Nielsen, Lars; Nytomt, Jan > Book containing this paper(s):SP-1149 > Index Terms:Ignition; Ignition controllers; Spark ignition engines; >Ignition timing; Cylinder pressure;Performance > > >Here is another that may have some info. > Document Number:890044 > Title:Saab direct ignition system and its cold start performance > Publication Date:1989 From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 16:08:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11687 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:08:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mffvlexc1.mccain.ca ([198.164.100.100]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11683 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:08:23 -0400 Received: by mffvlexc1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:09:21 -0300 Message-ID: From: "BUTLER, Tom" To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Refrigerants Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 17:09:20 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu You will find that 15 or 20 years ago, an article was published in Popular Mechanics magazine, entitiled something like "Build a Bottoming Cycle Engine". It featured a system which extracted waste heat from the exhaust gas using (you guessed it) refrigerant gas. The gas was then used in a Sterling cycle engine to crank out lots of low rpm torque. If this is what your plan is...forget it. It's been done. > -----Original Message----- > From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au > [SMTP:danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au] > Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 12:58 AM > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: Refrigerants > > I can see that my question has produces a plethora of new (but some > may not > be) ideas, but this one still isn't what I am doing. It might be a > good idea > though, if the power unit doesn't weigh too much... > > Danny Barrett > > > >I have always wanted to use surplus exhaust heat to run a > >power unit that would crank the alternator, a/c and power > >steering. The unit can be mounted remotely from the engine > >and located where the weight and volume can be best > >accomodated. Without those accessories the engine > >will be slim and trim. There would likely be a surplus > >of electric power available so even the water pump can be > >electric. Good idea > > > >John Carroll > > > >John Carroll > >jac@wavecom.net > > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 16:10:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11751 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:10:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from bert.acesag.auburn.edu (bert.acesag.auburn.edu [131.204.46.47]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11747 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:10:15 -0400 Received: from bert (bert [131.204.46.47]) by bert.acesag.auburn.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA19837 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:10:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:10:14 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gregory A. Parmer" X-Sender: gparmer@bert To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: re: jim's Poncho EFI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 4 May 1998, Jim Velasquez wrote: > just starting this project, so I might even set up the system 'on the > bench' ala the 101 stuff happening elsewhere on the list... 'Tis possible. I managed to get enough parts together for a trial run yesterday. I'm pretty sure the gas serves as a builtin heatsink for the injectors and therefore your tests should be short lived (or with a non-volatile liquid in the place of gasoline). As for my cobbled together project...I'm starting with a CFI (dual TBIs) manifold driven by our project '747. I haven't managed to get "closed loop" mode out of it yet, but the injectors are a buzzin'--all on the bench. I'm gonna send my GM truck EPROM image as soon as my programmer comes in (sorry fellas -- it didn't make it last week due to the infamous computer glitch). I talked to 'em a bit ago and it should be here in 2-3 days. Question: If anyone's still readin' here....will the new style HEI distributor module fire an old point-type coil? What would I be losing to do that? I hate to see that bright yellow SuperCoil replaced by the dingy black OEM one. :) -greg PS--The fella that's working on an invention...has invented a way to fill our mailboxes. It may not be patentable, but it works damn well! No CSH required. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 16:34:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12399 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:34:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from dns2.anl.gov (dns2.anl.gov [146.139.254.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12394 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:34:29 -0400 From: lkurek@smtpgate.anl.gov Received: from smtpgate.anl.gov (smtpgate.anl.gov [146.137.96.36]) by dns2.anl.gov (8.8.7/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA11048 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:34:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.anl.gov (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02) id AA894314069; Mon, 04 May 98 15:34:31 -0600 Message-Id: <9805048943.AA894314069@smtpgate.anl.gov> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02 Date: Mon, 04 May 98 15:26:03 -0600 To: Subject: Re[2]: Refrigerants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Danny: With all due respect, I don't think throwing this "teaser" out into the realm of a DIY-EFI forum is useful. First of all, it has generated a bunch of NC posts, and second...if it doesn't have to do with EFI, why was it posted here? I for one enjoy related subjects even if the thread is barely related to EFI, however I don't like to be held in suspense like this. Please, if you are planning on discussing this further, at least flesh it out a tad. If indeed you are in the process of developing this, and it is patentable, I would think your development efforts to date would keep you well in front of any "competition" that may get wind of it. Just my .02 TTYL! Larry Kurek ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: Refrigerants Author: at internet Date: 5/4/98 12:36 PM Just had this guess... Sorry... Not what I'm doing... Nice try though. Just a thought... isn't it interesting how if you say you have a "secret," that you have to keep to yourself for now, everyone seems to try to guess what it is..... Danny Barrett. >My bid....... > >Peltier effect cells cooling fuel? > >Just kidding :-) > >Peter > > >---------- >From: Danny Barrett >Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 4:09 AM >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: Refrigerants > >Sorry, wrong again... >got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake >air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it >in, and make the thing work even better..... > >Danny Barrett. > >>Gwyn Reedy wrote: >>> >>> Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an >>> intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? >> >>I don't think there are any turbochargers that heat the air up to 500 >>deg C... That's damn hot! I think it might be a new cooling system, so >>the heads are nice and cool=> run more boost, less knock, more power. Am >>I close? This is a neat puzzle ;) >> >>A. >> >> > > > >begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT >M>)\^(@,!`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` >M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ >MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` >M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO >M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E >M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E >M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` >M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\MM961U)P`"`0LP`0```"<```!33510.D1)65]%1DE 149),S,R+D5.1RY/2$E/ >M+5-4051%+D5$50```P``.0`````+`$ Z`0````(!]@\!````! ````````*< >M2 $$@ $`$0```%)%.B!2969R:6=EM``4``@`!`/$``2" `P`.````S@<%``0`"P`$`!L``0`)`0$)@ $`(0```#-" >M-T(Q03E",SE%,T0Q,3%"14)",# T,# U-48R039&`#0'`0.0!@`M``L`(P```````P`F```````+`"D```````,`+@```````P`V``````! `#D` >MX"6>JOAVO0$>`' ``0```!$```!213H@4F5FM````%@````&]=OBJGIL:>SSC.1'1OKL`0 5?*F\``!X`'@P!````!0```%-- >M5% `````'@`?# $````9````<&IAM``,`!A!@WV?4`P`'$(P"```>``@0`0```&4```!-64))1%!%3%1)15)%1D9% >M0U1#14Q,4T-/3TQ)3D=&545,/TI54U1+241$24Y'.BTI4$5415(M+2TM+2TM >M+2TM1E)/33I$04Y.64)!4E)%5%1314Y4.DU/3D1!62Q-05DP-"PQ``````(! >M"1 !````C0,``(D#``!P!@``3%I&=:HBLYG_``H!#P(5`J0#Y 7K`H,`4!,# >M5 (`8V@*P'-E=.XR!@`&PP*#,@/&!Q,"@[HS$PU]"H (SPG9.Q7_>#(U-0* >M"H$-L0M@;O!G,3 S%" +"A+R# $&8P! !=!Y(&)I9 XN&T0*A0J%4&5L=%T( >MD2 -P060!4!C'*!LCP0@!: &\ N 9R!F"E!$;#\;O$IU(CHM >M*1N^=(\$D!N\"HL>$#$X, +1X&DM,30T#? ,T"03>0M9,38*H -@(9 =42U? >M)C<*AR3K## EMD8#83JG)SXEM@R"($0`<&X:\/Y""L 6``) )M\G[09@`C + >M*1\J*TT"(&1A>2PC!= P(" P-#! ,3F .3@@-#HP.1-PYDTKSR?M5&\N#RHK >M(!!D>5\-P&E ->$90#("+@GP9RYO:&EOFBT?L&$AD#: 9'4QKW$LWG5B:AU! >M,\\J*U+.93H@/ `#4&EG!) `<,QTM'C$L86<+<1N(9R70(&[G)= VX!XQ=&\UD$*0`_#_0B! P .@"X AD1WB!) P >M0+\+@!Y0`-!![T+R1-!E0U*886ME"H4+<'(N$W#]';!O,$!$OT,0'>9%XD7P >M>&%DMTT?$=P6P:QT`=O\)\!L`*Y$$D!MO!< J^QNM\#Y'=WD#H#P`"8 :\.M <2&0 >M.E#F/E#74O! `)YU, `$(!X03)%A(!8`?SQE(9!+04-X0G('@$<@5_<1P 5 >M0K%Y"& =< = `R#_`'!2>%5J!I!%TA8`0U $(/='H!L`%9!W'.$W0 &0$;"5 >M"8 _$W @);!E+4.TG1ZF/E#F2J!"L&XG!4"_1\)-D%E4"L!442LA= AP_P;@ >M$;(\D00@1\!6L4F175*C5%%'`"!U<$)R-2.P=U#F#; >0$,;03.05J$GFP0@ >M,!!M`Z!*,'0A2I'O771"\$Q@/(!H!4!.`%1A)FX'T1WFMYDE77B,#`!V 3"/U'>(]4O!R4]!,8 6P1@"]!N!O'[ P0$/@!!%K1Z!L8VLP >M0&C#<%HR1R%M_5QX8Q60$?!;`&)06;%9L4-DHE:Q<'5Z>D/@(/8[((9<9T$; >MIEQG(<\]KR\9VR6V"H45(0!S\ ````,`$! ``````P`1$ ,```! ``ME?AVO0% ``@PP*KDE?AVO0$>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P`` >"^(-V >` >end > > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 16:47:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12696 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:47:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from bert.acesag.auburn.edu (bert.acesag.auburn.edu [131.204.46.47]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12691 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:47:17 -0400 Received: from bert (bert [131.204.46.47]) by bert.acesag.auburn.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA21430 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:47:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:47:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gregory A. Parmer" X-Sender: gparmer@bert To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? In-Reply-To: <357f17fc.66618750@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 4 May 1998 garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > > worthy of his wages, it's true, but don't drag the "hireling" attitude > into your personal and professional relationships, unless you wanna dry > up like some mosquito on a deserted island. > > Gargrumpy Hehehe....what he said....SAE would say that they have to pay for overhead, but it's still a bad way to do business. And thanks for the SAE references, Scott. FWIW--There is a demo CD available from http://www.sae.org. I'll let you know if/when it gets here. It sounds too good to be true so it probably is. -gregrumpy II do benadryl and amphetamines mix :^? From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 17:41:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13733 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:41:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13729 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:41:01 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-18.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.36]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id RAA17907 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:39:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: jim's Poncho EFI Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 17:41:22 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd77a5$61c2afa0$24198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Gregory A. Parmer To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 5:08 PM Subject: re: jim's Poncho EFI > >On Mon, 4 May 1998, Jim Velasquez wrote: >> just starting this project, so I might even set up the system 'on the >> bench' ala the 101 stuff happening elsewhere on the list... > >'Tis possible. I managed to get enough parts together for >a trial run yesterday. I'm pretty sure the gas serves >as a builtin heatsink for the injectors and therefore your >tests should be short lived (or with a non-volatile liquid >in the place of gasoline). > I'm just gonna run some large resistors instead of the actual injectors, like 20 ohm, 10 watt. Should be able to do dwell meter or scope off of that. While the P+H drivers would be "confused" by not seeing a big load, I don't think this will interfer with the actual signal processing.... >As for my cobbled together project...I'm starting with a >CFI (dual TBIs) manifold driven by our project '747. I >haven't managed to get "closed loop" mode out of it yet, >but the injectors are a buzzin'--all on the bench. > >I'm gonna send my GM truck EPROM image as soon as my >programmer comes in (sorry fellas -- it didn't make it >last week due to the infamous computer glitch). I talked >to 'em a bit ago and it should be here in 2-3 days. > >Question: >If anyone's still readin' here....will the new style HEI >distributor module fire an old point-type coil? Yes, but the "Electronic Ignition" coils have a lower resistance, hence less spark energy. What would I be losing to do that? I hate to see that bright >yellow SuperCoil replaced by the dingy black OEM one. :) > >-greg > Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 18:00:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13939 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:00:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13935 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:59:58 -0400 Received: from scottmo (pdx68-i48-17.teleport.com [204.202.172.95]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA02843 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <354E3A1F.742B@teleport.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:58:55 -0700 From: "Scott Mo." X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? References: <356fda6b.50857750@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <354E0FB6.F43@teleport.com> <357f17fc.66618750@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >"Scott Mo." > wrote: > >Just a quick comment, IMHO $100 a year to get the SAE Automotive > >Engineering magazine and to be able to search the technical paper > >listing archives on line is CHEAP! garfield@pilgrimhouse.com responded: > Well, I'm not being cheap (no one's EVER accused me of that yet), I just find the SAE's practice of charging, and sometimes charging a LOT, evenfrom it's members, a tad penurious. > Gargrumpy This may surpise you, but Yes, I could not agree more, SAE certainly does nickel and dime you every time you want something. When you look at the costs for some of their publications or to attend their conferences, there are a lot of nickels and dimes being expended....I must say that I really enjoyed your response and have not read something that has been stated that well in a long time..thanks There are ways to get the SAE information without paying much. BUT, it does take a little work on your part. As I mentioned, most Libraries have the SAE articles on microfiche and you can make copies of them at the Library. Note: SAE may want you to send them some money $7 when you do this copying :-( There is also a SAE index so called the "SAE Handbook" you can use to look up all the previous SAE technical articles by Author, number, Subject etc , the library should also have the latest version of this. I guess I look at the $50 charge/year to search their archives as a "service" fee that I must pay to cover the costs to make all this information available on the internet. When I compare it to the time I had to spend previously searching for information, I find it a very reasonable price to pay. When I look at the time I have put in to developing a web site, I now know that it costs money and time. Is it ok or "right" for SAE to charge me for this? I don't really care, I want the info and I am more than willing to pay for it, thousands of engineers and thousands of companies pad big bucks to develop these ideas and systems, and I am amazed that I even get to look at any of it. Sometimes there ain't no free lunch... Cheers Scott Mo. 1989 Audi 200TQ 1988 5000TQ 1984 4000S 1966 VW Beetle http://www.teleport.com/~scottmo From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 18:07:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14077 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:07:31 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from anvil.gatech.edu (root@anvil.gatech.edu [130.207.165.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14072 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:07:28 -0400 Received: from resnet.gatech.edu.gatech.edu (r53h96.res.gatech.edu [128.61.53.96]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA06544 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980504132231.00689e98@pop.prism.gatech.edu> X-Sender: gt1040a@pop.prism.gatech.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 18:07:21 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: "Richard W. Cowan" Subject: Re: High MPG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 02:24 AM 5/5/98 +1000, you wrote: >Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and money was >put into the development of a turbine engine (like the Chrysler one) as has >been put into the engines we currently run, the "200 MPG carb" type idea >would be a case of "so what!" In the case of the Chrysler turbine, it had a >very ingeneous heat transfer drvice that recycled otherwise wasted heat from Yes, ICEs are incredibly inefficient, and probably no amount of tweaking will ever make it as good as electric. Turbines are excellent compared to ICEs but they suck for stop-n-go. That's why they make great airplane engines and lousy auto engines. This is probably [nc], but IMO the words "automobile" and "efficient" are never going to go together until they are all switched to electric sometime (before you can say dead oil lobby). Then we'll have to change the list from DYIEFI to DYI(more amperage!). (Of course the electricity to charge the batteries will still be generated by coal-burning plants until we switch to nuclear). Hopefully by then we will be beyond the days of the electric-golf-cart-with-a-sloop-rig-for-windy-days. I had the opportunity to drive the GM EV1 and a Rav4 EV. The batteries are still friggin huge, range sucked, its still expensive, but the power output at the wheels was far beyond what I expected. The future doesn't look quite so dim anymore. Sorry for the rambling Richard BME '96, GA Tech. Go Jackets! http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vap1rc From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 19:01:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14868 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:01:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from snowcrest.net (mtshasta.snowcrest.net [207.201.33.195]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14864 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:01:00 -0400 Received: from ws2436 (ppp269.snowcrest.net [207.201.19.157]) by snowcrest.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18265 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805042301.QAA18265@snowcrest.net> From: "Derek Jewett" To: Subject: Re: High MPG Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:01:28 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have a hard time believing electric vehicles will ever replace or even compliment (on any scale) internal combustion engine powered vehicles. For example look at Honda's ZLEV engine, it produces such low emissions it actually cleans the air in smoggy areas!! (i.e. Los Angeles), and it has been proven that zero level emissions vehicles or ZLEV's I believe they're called, produce less emissions when compared to the emissions produced to generate enough electricity to power the same car the same distance, etc.. So in summary EFI will be around for a long time to come! This has been a CARB service message Derek Jewett - "clean air advocate" 1975 Chevy LUV w/383 small block carbureted, and lotsa black smoke! From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 19:41:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15331 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:41:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ns1.foothill.net (ns1.foothill.net [206.170.175.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15327 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:41:39 -0400 Received: from terryk (tahoe2-d87.foothill.net [209.76.43.87]) by ns1.foothill.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA17038 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:41:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "TBK" To: Subject: Re: High MPG Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:40:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd77b5$fba19ae0$572b4cd1@terryk.foothill.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Chrysler Turbine: 120hp/425ftT-lbs torque -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 10:46 AM Subject: Re: High MPG > >-----Original Message----- >From: Danny Barrett >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 12:55 PM >Subject: Re: High MPG > > >>Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and money was >put into the development of a turbine engine (like the Chrysler one) as has >been put into the engines we currently run, the "200 MPG carb" type idea >would be a case of "so what!" In the case of the Chrysler turbine, it had a >very ingeneous heat transfer drvice that recycled otherwise wasted heat from >the exhaust to the intake, thereby making the engine more efficient (this is >a bit more difficult with the IC engine to say the least - basically, it has >to be stored as chemical potential energy within the fuel, and this can only >>be done by chemically altering the fuel with an endothermic reaction). The >problem that I can see with the heat exchanger is that it didn't exchange >enough of the exhaust heat. Obviously, if it exchanged more, with a greater >efficiency, the engine would be more efficient - it's basic thermodynamics, >and it's even given a name - "Regenerative cycle" ie. recycle waste heat >>energy to raise the efficiency of the engine. And guess what... It's >easiest >>to do with some sort of turbine. Perhaps someone should revisit the old >>Chrisler engine and make the heat exchanger more efficient??? >> >>Danny Barrett. >> >> >The most impressive moment I had around the Chy Turbine car >was standing behind it, and the ambient temp rising from 60-70F >to well over 100, very quickly. Maybe an over impression of youth >but it made ya walk away in a hurrry. > >Bruce > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 20:00:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15494 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:00:47 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15490 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:00:44 -0400 Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-108-52.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.108.52]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA71116 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:00:43 GMT Message-ID: <354E57A3.2E56C6A7@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:04:57 -0400 From: "Christopher G. Moog" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: High MPG electic raving References: <3.0.32.19980504132231.00689e98@pop.prism.gatech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Richard W. Cowan wrote: > > Yes, ICEs are incredibly inefficient, and probably no amount of tweaking > will ever make it as good as electric. Turbines are excellent compared to > ICEs but they suck for stop-n-go. That's why they make great airplane > engines and lousy auto engines. Besides steady power requirements turbines don't size down well. Clearances along the edges remain the same size in large units as small so the small units are less efficient. This is while in small power generation (less than tens of kW diesel rule). Also why in trains and ships diesels are still the most popular power plant. > This is probably [nc], but IMO the words "automobile" and "efficient" are > never going to go together until they are all switched to electric sometime > (before you can say dead oil lobby). Then we'll have to change the list > from DYIEFI to DYI(more amperage!). (Of course the electricity to charge > the batteries will still be generated by coal-burning plants until we > switch to nuclear). Hopefully by then we will be beyond the days of the > electric-golf-cart-with-a-sloop-rig-for-windy-days. > > I had the opportunity to drive the GM EV1 and a Rav4 EV. The batteries are > still friggin huge, range sucked, its still expensive, but the power output > at the wheels was far beyond what I expected. The future doesn't look > quite so dim anymore. > > Sorry for the rambling > > Richard BME '96, GA Tech. Go Jackets! > http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vap1rc As far as electric goes they use more energy per mile than an efficient ICE automobile. The EV1 uses 248 watt-hrs/mi (measured at the charger) The RAV4 uses 412 watt-hrs/mi (again at the charger) This electricity is produced at a fossil fueled plant (the energy used by EVs should be counted against the incremental generator not the base plants since they represent a new load). These plants need approximately 10,000 btus of fuel to produce 1,000 watt-hour of energy. So the EV1 uses the equivalent of 2480 btus to travel a mile. Since gasoline has 114,000 btus per gallon the EV1 is getting the equivalent of 46 mpg. The RAV4EV is getting the equivalent of 28 mpg. Neither of these figures beats a good ICE vehicle with the same performance. To reduce oil use with electric vehicles will require a nuclear based electrical system. Until that happens we should save fuel by using mass transit (where available), efficient ICE (vehicles not inefficient EVs and not SUVs), and by cutting wasted travel. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 20:11:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15652 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:11:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.lig.bellsouth.net (mail.lig.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.50]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15647 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:11:34 -0400 Received: from zippy (host-209-214-178-21.chs.bellsouth.net [209.214.178.21]) by mail.lig.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA05529 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:11:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "M&D" <91coupe@bellsouth.net> To: Subject: Re: High MPG Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:17:54 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd77bb$3fd2a100$15b2d6d1@zippy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I, and countless thousands of others, take umbrage to your omission of the Wankel rotary engine as an alternative to pushrods. (What we call boingers). :) Seriously though, although the wankel wasn't very efficient to start with, Mazda's latest MSP-RE engine puts out like 225HP with 1.3 Liters, and gets 25 MPG or so. Naturally aspirated. Would that they would go into production... Anyway, just wanted to put a slant on things. Michael Harrington 91coupe@bellsouth.net and http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/downs/4038 91 RX-7 Coupe "Pearl" w/ some mods 88 RX-7 T2 "Beast" sitting in carport :( N3WJE Technician+ Ham -----Original Message----- From: Frederic Breitwieser To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 10:58 AM Subject: High MPG >>Something you mentioned: I know of Charles Nelson Pogue's "200 MPG carb." >>And I know about the chemistry of how it worked, and why its results were >>not very reliable (I know more about the chemistry of it than he did at the >>time - but this doesn't take much). Asside from this, Pogue stated in an > >Unfortunately, these kind of devices and technology are basically bandaids >to a much greater problem, one of great inefficiency. A pushrod engine is >about as ineffecient as an engine can get, however it does have its merits. > I think once engineers start moving away from a 100 year old design, >things will definately get better mileage wise. I don't have the URLs >handy, however there are two such engines that have strayed away from >pushrods, but replacing the rotating assembly with a giant Cam. The cam, >instead of controlling valve timing, is driven by the pistons, which are >configured in a radial fashion. The one engine that is running (and in the >internet), creates very little horsepower, however the torque it generates >phenominal as compared to its weight, size, and configuration. > >I think pushrod engines waste something in the neighborhood of 80% of the >available power in the gasoline. > > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >Homebrew Automotive Website: >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HMMWV >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > >- > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 20:51:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA16230 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:51:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from f04n01.cac.psu.edu (f04a01.cac.psu.edu [146.186.15.26]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16226 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:51:01 -0400 Received: from pft101.rh.psu.edu (PFT101.rh.psu.edu [128.118.125.178]) by f04n01.cac.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA63986 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:50:12 -0400 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:50:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199805050050.UAA63986@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> X-Sender: pft101@email.psu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Paul Tholey Subject: Ford MAF Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Attn: Ford Guys A friend with a 1994 Escort GT, 1.8 twin cam is looking to do some minor modifications. The MAF is the flapper door style. It has a 7 pin connector. We pulled the other style MAF off a plain Escort. It has a 4 pin connector labled A B C D. Is there a way to incorporate this less restictive MAF into the twin cam Escort setup? I think they both have the same output, just concerned about the scaling. Anyother tips/advice is appreciated. Paul Tholey From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 21:28:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16737 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:28:03 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16733 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:28:00 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp11-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.60]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA13393 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:25:05 -0400 Message-ID: <354E6DC7.314C@huron.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:39:19 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: High MPG electic raving References: <3.0.32.19980504132231.00689e98@pop.prism.gatech.edu> <354E57A3.2E56C6A7@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Christopher G. Moog wrote: > > Richard W. Cowan wrote: > > > > > Yes, ICEs are incredibly inefficient, and probably no amount of tweaking > > will ever make it as good as electric. Turbines are excellent compared to > > ICEs but they suck for stop-n-go. That's why they make great airplane > > engines and lousy auto engines. > > Besides steady power requirements turbines don't size down well. Clearances > along the edges remain the same size in large units as small so the small units > are less efficient. This is while in small power generation (less than tens of > kW diesel rule). Also why in trains and ships diesels are still the most popular > power plant. > > > This is probably [nc], but IMO the words "automobile" and "efficient" are > > never going to go together until they are all switched to electric sometime > > (before you can say dead oil lobby). Then we'll have to change the list > > from DYIEFI to DYI(more amperage!). (Of course the electricity to charge > > the batteries will still be generated by coal-burning plants until we > > switch to nuclear). Hopefully by then we will be beyond the days of the > > electric-golf-cart-with-a-sloop-rig-for-windy-days. > > > > I had the opportunity to drive the GM EV1 and a Rav4 EV. The batteries are > > still friggin huge, range sucked, its still expensive, but the power output > > at the wheels was far beyond what I expected. The future doesn't look > > quite so dim anymore. > > > > Sorry for the rambling > > > > Richard BME '96, GA Tech. Go Jackets! > > http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vap1rc > > As far as electric goes they use more energy per mile than an efficient ICE > automobile. The EV1 uses 248 watt-hrs/mi (measured at the charger) The RAV4 > uses 412 watt-hrs/mi (again at the charger) This electricity is produced at a > fossil fueled plant (the energy used by EVs should be counted against the > incremental generator not the base plants since they represent a new load). > These plants need approximately 10,000 btus of fuel to produce 1,000 watt-hour of > energy. So the EV1 uses the equivalent of 2480 btus to travel a mile. Since > gasoline has 114,000 btus per gallon the EV1 is getting the equivalent of 46 > mpg. The RAV4EV is getting the equivalent of 28 mpg. Neither of these figures > beats a good ICE vehicle with the same performance. > > To reduce oil use with electric vehicles will require a nuclear based electrical > system. Until that happens we should save fuel by using mass transit (where > available), efficient ICE (vehicles not inefficient EVs and not SUVs), and by > cutting wasted travel. In Ontario, we have been running on nuclear energy for many years. The CANDU is supposed to be the best system out there - and we are shutting virtually ALL of them down. Problems with maintenance and expense - Mabee if they privatise the system someone will manage to run it efficiently, but what about safely? I'm of a mixed mind on the subject. As for the efficiency arguement, a LARGE turbine is more efficient than a small one, and constant load helps too. Therfore, a properly designed oil or NG fired turbine generator can be a lot more efficient than current designs. Even with generator and transmission losses, the EV of tomorrow, including power generation, will likely be more efficient and less poluting on the whole than anything that exists today, and than any ICE of tomorrow. However, the EV of tomorrow will NOT depend on the grid for power. Ballard Energy, and others of their ilk, will see to that. Fuel cells will be the future. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 21:47:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16989 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:47:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16980 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:47:23 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp28.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.158]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA08556 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:47:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <354E6D8D.B7449EA3@mwt.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:38:22 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: depot boardsRe: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <356fda6b.50857750@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have access to a lab materials to remove most any epoxy from electronic parts. But can't promise if the unit will work but they work in 99% of the time.Contact me off line if you want this done. Steve kb4mxo@mwt.net garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > Hey Maties. > > I been keepin this under me hat for a while, but thot I'd spill the > beans and max out the fun, now that I have a Lab Rat working. Member > that thread awhile back about using the post-spark ionization current > to > detect detonation and misfires? Well, one of our illustrious members, > whose initials are Jim Crance (golly, I hope he doesn't mind taking a > bow), who's also a fellow pilot, got aholdOme and said he had a > slightly > marginal Trionic Ignition/Ionization unit from Saab that worked fine > excpet it hickup'd whenever it was in a deep freeze, and would I like > to > have a look? Jim's a Saab (& other Euro's) Mech. So I got the thang > last > week before last, along with a nice Saab 9000 manual Jim sent along, > and > danged if it don't look feasible to diy. > > The assembly's epoxy potted, so limits my snooping to watching it fly > from the outside (just as well), but like I said before, I figure > ANYTHING that's being mass deployed in the commercial auto market has > GOT to be diy'able; otherwise anything twitchy/complicated/sensitive > isn't gonna make it, and Saab's apparently been using this technology > since '93!! Does this remind you at all of EGOR? > > So, here's the plan. Just like before, instead of 'cheating' and > looking > inside, we'll use the same approach as on EGOR, and try to LEARN how > it > works, with yous guys help, like before. Now, since I'm not a member > of > SAE, and I see they want a $100/yr subscription JUST to search their > Paper's bibliography, I am soliciting help in locating any/all > articles/info on this system. I can't imagine Saab not touting it > upon/in-prep-for it's introduction in '93, so there have GOT to be > some > interesting/useful papers available. Soooo, any of yous guys with a > moment and a membership in SAE, could you start the ball rolling by > doing a search in the SAE Bibliography for any hits on the following > known good keywords: > Saab AND Trionic, "Ignition Discharge Module", Ionization, > etc. > > The manual Jim sent me says "The Saab Trionic system was introduced in > > 1993 on Saab 9000 models fitted with the B234L engine." The manual > itself if for '96, and assuming they're still using this Trionic stuff > > in '98, that means the thang's been deployed for 5 years. That oughta > be > enough to convince anyone it works, I would guess. [Saab sells alot of > > them Turbo 9000's, don't it? At any rate I sure see alot of them here > in > Calif. A fan of the yuppie crowd, ifyaknowadamean.] > > Finally, Fair Use allows us the privilege of posting a few of the key > pages from the manual to wet your appetite, so I'll scan a couple in > and > post them up on the FTP site. This could give ole EGOR a definitive > challenge to his nascent fameNnotoriety. Now he's gonna have > competition. Sorta like the Red & Yellow MnM bozos. Heh. > > Let's get'er rollin, dudes. Cuz this tech sure looks like it beats the > > acoustic knock detection schemes by a Swedish mile! And, unless we get > a > total firehose of activity on this and begin to overload the list, how > > bout you POST your finds instead of sending them to me privately. > Might > encourage the beehive effect, and bring everyone interested up to > speed > that much faster. [BTW, didy'all know that this gizmo is even used to > "commute" the spark/injection, by replacing the cam sensor? Yeah, it > detects which "other" pair of plugs is firing via ionization current, > and combined with the crank sensor for the "intersecting pair", > determines which cylinder is at TDC on it's power stroke. Cool, eh?] > > Cheers maties; if we pull THIS one off, we'll have to think seriously > about holding some kinda party or sumpin, eh? Could be fun. > > Gar From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 21:48:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17008 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:48:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17004 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:48:07 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA05231; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:48:06 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00283 for ; Mon, 04 May 1998 21:46:32 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:46:32 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805050146.VAA00283@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980504214427.007a9cb0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:44:27 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Boingers In-Reply-To: <01bd77bb$3fd2a100$15b2d6d1@zippy> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Anyway, just wanted to put a slant on things. Okay Michael, short and sweet- my apologies for not including the wankel in my suggestive list of inefficient antiquated technology :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 22:40:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17775 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:40:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from uia.net (uia.net [157.22.213.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17770 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:40:15 -0400 Received: from tyan-machine (157.22.213.76) by uia.net with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0.1); Mon, 4 May 1998 19:40:47 -0700 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: RE: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:40:10 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Message-ID: <1317811646-26702797@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The disadvantage of an acoustical knock detector is that it detects the "sound" of knocking, i.e. a certain frequency and type of noise that unfortunately can be masked or enhanced by physical engine charactoristics (aluminum, iron etc) and change's frequency etc by many factors and the fact that ordinary engine noise has to be filtered out. The Ionization Knock Detector looks for a specific event in the combustion gasses - the sudden appearance of ionization products after ignition. Since this mechanism is not heavily engine material, size, fuel, temp, ambient noise dependent for determining its characteristics, the detection of the event is straightforward without the need of highly sophisticated self anally extracting make TI rich DSP's. Start with a clean signal and you don't need the hi fangle BS to make the system work - a strange concept I know but once upon a time was considered the way to do things. Properly done, ION can work on everything from a lawnmower to a Multi-staged turbo intercooled alcohol fueled road rocket without any basic changes or tuning. It simply must detect the knock related ionization event - which incidentally will cause a low voltage dc conduction across the spark gap. Simple. Non computerized, wazoo ized and eminently doable without anything even approaching a DSP. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Don Berry > Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 10:12 AM > To: 'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > Subject: RE: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? > > > Has anyone considered use a DSP (digital signal processor) > for acoustic knock detection? I understand that they can actually operate > with a negative signal to noise ratio. > > Don > > ...and no, my Chevy does NOT run Windows! ;^) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > snip > > > Cuz this tech sure looks like it beats the acoustic knock > detection schemes by a Swedish mile! > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 23:02:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18126 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:02:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18122 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:02:32 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA10389 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:02:32 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:03:18 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <355880c0.10772015@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <356fda6b.50857750@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <354E6D8D.B7449EA3@mwt.net> In-Reply-To: <354E6D8D.B7449EA3@mwt.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id XAA18123 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 04 May 1998 20:38:22 -0500, Steven Gorkowski wrote: >I have access to a lab materials to remove most any epoxy from >electronic parts. But can't promise if the unit will work but they work >in 99% of the time.Contact me off line if you want this done. > >Steve As I mentioned before, I hope I don't have to resort to this, but I will look for another unit to maybe sacrifice. How bout you sharing the methods and materials used? I hope this is not another secret method. Sigh. Gar From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 23:34:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18614 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:34:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18609 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:34:48 -0400 Received: from pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.106]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA19708 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:34:47 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:34:47 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050334.NAA19708@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: High MPG X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu So you would agree that it had a lot of wasted heat energy going out the exhaust??? >>Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and money was >put into the development of a turbine engine (like the Chrysler one) as has >been put into the engines we currently run, the "200 MPG carb" type idea >would be a case of "so what!" In the case of the Chrysler turbine, it had a >very ingeneous heat transfer drvice that recycled otherwise wasted heat from >the exhaust to the intake, thereby making the engine more efficient (this is >a bit more difficult with the IC engine to say the least - basically, it has >to be stored as chemical potential energy within the fuel, and this can only >>be done by chemically altering the fuel with an endothermic reaction). The >problem that I can see with the heat exchanger is that it didn't exchange >enough of the exhaust heat. Obviously, if it exchanged more, with a greater >efficiency, the engine would be more efficient - it's basic thermodynamics, >and it's even given a name - "Regenerative cycle" ie. recycle waste heat >>energy to raise the efficiency of the engine. And guess what... It's >easiest >>to do with some sort of turbine. Perhaps someone should revisit the old >>Chrisler engine and make the heat exchanger more efficient??? >> >>Danny Barrett. >> >> >The most impressive moment I had around the Chy Turbine car >was standing behind it, and the ambient temp rising from 60-70F >to well over 100, very quickly. Maybe an over impression of youth >but it made ya walk away in a hurrry. > >Bruce > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 23:39:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18656 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:39:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18652 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:39:23 -0400 Received: from pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.106]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA20886 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:39:21 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:39:21 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050339.NAA20886@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: High MPG X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I agree about the ceramic engines, but aren't they a bit expensive??? >The efficiency, in terms of fuel used for power generated, of an internal >combustion engine has to do with expansion ratio, combustion temperature and >pumping loss. 2 valve, 4 valve, pushrod, OHC, etc have little or no effect >on efficiency. High winding multi valve engines get more power per >displacement but not necessarily more power per weight or cost. Maybe you >con't like pushrods, or they are aesthetically displeasing to you but they >are certainly not less efficient. > >A gasoline engine wastes only 60% of the energy in gasoline when operated at >full throttle. It wastes 80% at part throttle where it operates like a big >vacuum pump with a leak and it wastes 100% at idle. Multi-valve and >overhead cams don't change these numbers. > >Gas turbines, steam, rotary, etc generally do worse. The road to >improvement is paved with reduced heat loss from exhaust and cooling. >Ceramic parts which operate without cooling and greater expansion ratios can >reduce this energy wastage. None of which has anything to do with pushrods. > >Gary Derian > > > >>I think pushrod engines waste something in the neighborhood of 80% of the >>available power in the gasoline. >> >>Frederic Breitwieser > > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 23:51:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18772 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:51:58 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18766 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:51:46 -0400 Received: from pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.106]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA24191 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:51:31 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:51:31 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050351.NAA24191@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Please see my more recent replies... > > Danny: > > With all due respect, I don't think throwing this "teaser" out into > the realm of a DIY-EFI forum is useful. First of all, it has generated > a bunch of NC posts, and second...if it doesn't have to do with EFI, > why was it posted here? > > I for one enjoy related subjects even if the thread is barely related > to EFI, however I don't like to be held in suspense like this. Please, > if you are planning on discussing this further, at least flesh it out > a tad. If indeed you are in the process of developing this, and it is > patentable, I would think your development efforts to date would keep > you well in front of any "competition" that may get wind of it. > > Just my .02 > > TTYL! > > Larry Kurek > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: RE: Refrigerants >Author: at internet >Date: 5/4/98 12:36 PM > > >Just had this guess... Sorry... Not what I'm doing... Nice try though. > >Just a thought... isn't it interesting how if you say you have a "secret," >that you have to keep to yourself for now, everyone seems to try to guess >what it is..... > >Danny Barrett. > >>My bid....... >> >>Peltier effect cells cooling fuel? >> >>Just kidding :-) >> >>Peter >> >> >>---------- >>From: Danny Barrett >>Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 4:09 AM >>To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >>Subject: Re: Refrigerants >> >>Sorry, wrong again... >>got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with the intake >>air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could add it >>in, and make the thing work even better..... >> >>Danny Barrett. >> >>>Gwyn Reedy wrote: >>>> >>>> Sounds like a refrigerated intercooler to me. What do you call an >>>> intercooler if there is no blower attached? A pre-cooler? >>> >>>I don't think there are any turbochargers that heat the air up to 500 >>>deg C... That's damn hot! I think it might be a new cooling system, so >>>the heads are nice and cool=> run more boost, less knock, more power. Am >>>I close? This is a neat puzzle ;) >>> >>>A. >>> >>> >> >> >> >>begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT >>M>)\^(@,!`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` >>M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ >>MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` >>M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO >>M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E >>M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E >>M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` >>M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M>M961U)P`"`0LP`0```"<```!33510.D1)65]%1DE 149),S,R+D5.1RY/2$E/ >>M+5-4051%+D5$50```P``.0`````+`$ Z`0````(!]@\!````! ````````*< >>M2 $$@ $`$0```%)%.B!2969R:6=E>M``4``@`!`/$``2" `P`.````S@<%``0`"P`$`!L``0`)`0$)@ $`(0```#-" >>M-T(Q03E",SE%,T0Q,3%"14)",# T,# U-48R039&`#0'`0.0!@`>M``L`(P```````P`F```````+`"D```````,`+@```````P`V``````! `#D` >>MX"6>JOAVO0$>`' ``0```!$```!213H@4F5F>M````%@````&]=OBJGIL:>SSC.1'1OKL`0 5?*F\``!X`'@P!````!0```%-- >>M5% `````'@`?# $````9````<&IA>M``,`!A!@WV?4`P`'$(P"```>``@0`0```&4```!-64))1%!%3%1)15)%1D9% >>M0U1#14Q,4T-/3TQ)3D=&545,/TI54U1+241$24Y'.BTI4$5415(M+2TM+2TM >>M+2TM1E)/33I$04Y.64)!4E)%5%1314Y4.DU/3D1!62Q-05DP-"PQ``````(! >>M"1 !````C0,``(D#``!P!@``3%I&=:HBLYG_``H!#P(5`J0#Y 7K`H,`4!,# >>M5 (`8V@*P'-E=.XR!@`&PP*#,@/&!Q,"@[HS$PU]"H (SPG9.Q7_>#(U-0* >>M"H$-L0M@;O!G,3 S%" +"A+R# $&8P! !=!Y(&)I9 XN&T0*A0J%4&5L=%T( >>MD2 -P060!4!C'*!LCP0@!: &\ N 9R!F"E!$;#\;O$IU(CHM > >>M*1N^=(\$D!N\"HL>$#$X, +1X&DM,30T#? ,T"03>0M9,38*H -@(9 =42U? >>M)C<*AR3K## EMD8#83JG)SXEM@R"($0`<&X:\/Y""L 6``) )M\G[09@`C + >>M*1\J*TT"(&1A>2PC!= P(" P-#! ,3F .3@@-#HP.1-PYDTKSR?M5&\N#RHK >>M(!!D>5\-P&E ->$90#("+@GP9RYO:&EOFBT?L&$AD#: 9'4QKW$LWG5B:AU! >>M,\\J*U+.93H@/ `#4&EG!) `<,QT>M'C$L86<+<1N(9R70(&[G)= VX!XQ=&\UD$*0`_#_0B! P .@"X AD1WB!) P >>M0+\+@!Y0`-!![T+R1-!E0U*886ME"H4+<'(N$W#]';!O,$!$OT,0'>9%XD7P >>M>&%D>MTT?$=P6P:QT`=O\)\!L`*Y$$D!MO!< J^QNM\#Y'=WD#H#P`"8 :\.M <2&0 >>M.E#F/E#74O! `)YU, `$(!X03)%A(!8`?SQE(9!+04-X0G('@$<@5_<1P 5 >>M0K%Y"& =< = `R#_`'!2>%5J!I!%TA8`0U $(/='H!L`%9!W'.$W0 &0$;"5 >>M"8 _$W @);!E+4.TG1ZF/E#F2J!"L&XG!4"_1\)-D%E4"L!442LA= AP_P;@ >>M$;(\D00@1\!6L4F175*C5%%'`"!U<$)R-2.P=U#F#; >0$,;03.05J$GFP0@ >>M,!!M`Z!*,'0A2I'O771"\$Q@/(!H!4!.`%1A)FX'T1WF>MYDE77B,#`!V 3"/U'>(]4O!R4]!,8 6P1@"]!N!O'[ P0$/@!!%K1Z!L8VLP >>M0&C#<%HR1R%M_5QX8Q60$?!;`&)06;%9L4-DHE:Q<'5Z>D/@(/8[((9<9T$; > >>MIEQG(<\]KR\9VR6V"H45(0!S\ ````,`$! ``````P`1$ ,```! ``>ME?AVO0% ``@PP*KDE?AVO0$>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P`` >>"^(-V >>` >>end >> >> >> >> > > > > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 4 23:49:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18754 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:49:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18750 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:49:36 -0400 Received: from pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.106]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA23565 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:49:23 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:49:23 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050349.NAA23565@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: RE: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well, it seems as if my idea has already been used. However, I would be using it in an internal combustion engine (storing the energy chemically, by altering the fuel to a higher octane fuel, with lower combustion heat, and more mechanical power output from the combustion of it). Danny Barrett. >You will find that 15 or 20 years ago, an article was published in >Popular Mechanics magazine, entitiled something like "Build a Bottoming >Cycle Engine". It featured a system which extracted waste heat from the >exhaust gas using (you guessed it) refrigerant gas. The gas was then >used in a Sterling cycle engine to crank out lots of low rpm torque. If >this is what your plan is...forget it. It's been done. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au >> [SMTP:danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au] >> Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 12:58 AM >> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Subject: Re: Refrigerants >> >> I can see that my question has produces a plethora of new (but some >> may not >> be) ideas, but this one still isn't what I am doing. It might be a >> good idea >> though, if the power unit doesn't weigh too much... >> >> Danny Barrett >> >> >> >I have always wanted to use surplus exhaust heat to run a >> >power unit that would crank the alternator, a/c and power >> >steering. The unit can be mounted remotely from the engine >> >and located where the weight and volume can be best >> >accomodated. Without those accessories the engine >> >will be slim and trim. There would likely be a surplus >> >of electric power available so even the water pump can be >> >electric. Good idea >> > >> >John Carroll >> > >> >John Carroll >> >jac@wavecom.net >> > >> > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:04:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19074 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:04:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.arlec.com.au (mail.arlec.com.au [203.36.152.195]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19070 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:04:33 -0400 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Tue, 05 May 1998 14:58:47 +1000 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from default (192.1.8.200::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.6); Tue, 05 May 1998 14:58:46 +1000 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:58:41 +0800 Message-ID: <01BD782D.E930E8C0.dzorde@soanar.com.au> From: Dan Zorde To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Refrigerants, Wide range EGO and other thoughts. Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:58:40 +0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 69 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Just place a Hazchem sticker on your car, and hope you don't have an accident. I'm sure the EPA would have a few things to say after a gallon or so of ammonium have spilt all over the road and knocked out any nearby witnesses. Would look spectacular but. Dan dzorde@soanar.com.au -----Original Message----- From: steve ravet [SMTP:steve@sun4c409.imes.com] Sent: Monday, 04 May, 1998 9:24 PM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Refrigerants, Wide range EGO and other thoughts. Thor Johnson wrote: > > > Refrigerants > > > > Sounds like someone is trying to adapt the ammonia absorption > cycle > > refrigeration system to use as an intercooler. What is > interesting is that > > although this cycle is less "efficient" at cooling than a > compressed gas > > cycle, it gets it's pumping energy from heat - in the case of > a propane RV > > refrigerator from a small propane flame, or in this case from > the waste heat > > of the exhaust. The problem is probably the exhaust > temperatures raise the > > ammonia/water solution past the efficient working range and > the gentleman is > > looking for another absorption cycle fluid that will work in > this range. > > You have any good sources of info on the ammonia cycle? I'm a > nuts&bolts guy who would like to build one for the heck of it.... > (An EE that likes to play with the ME's toys ;). Get on Deja News, and do a search on ammonia refrigerators. You'll come up with a lot of posts in rec.boating of all places, including one that explains ammonia fridges in detail. The author's name is Rod McInnis. A mixture of water and ammonia is heated in a column. Because of different boiling points, one end of the column is mostly ammonia, the other end is mostly water. The two are separated, and pumped into the fridge. When water and ammonia mix, the temperature of the mix goes way down. It's a physical process, not a chemical one, that I cannot remember the name of right now. The mixture never changes pressure, so there is no compresor. The only energy input is a flame or electric heat to boil the mixture. In an RV, there isn't even a pump, the system is cleverly designed so that the gravity causes the mixture to circulate. That won't work in a car with lateral G forces, but there's no reason why you couldn't add a small pump to circulate the mixture. It's been mentioned before here, it seems like it would be a good way to use exhaust heat to cool the incoming mixture. The only thing is that the ammonia mixture is very stong (poisonous), much stronger than cleaning products. --steve > > TIA, > -Thor Johnson > thormj@iname.com -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve@imes.com From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:09:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19164 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:09:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19159 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:09:40 -0400 Received: from pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.106]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA29131 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:09:38 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:09:38 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050409.OAA29131@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: High MPG electic raving X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hmmm.... Sounds like we're stuck with the ICE. I don't really like the idea of having a nuclear reactor in the car... >Besides steady power requirements turbines don't size down well. Clearances >along the edges remain the same size in large units as small so the small units >are less efficient. This is while in small power generation (less than tens of >kW diesel rule). Also why in trains and ships diesels are still the most popular >power plant. > > As far as electric goes they use more energy per mile than an efficient ICE >automobile. The EV1 uses 248 watt-hrs/mi (measured at the charger) The RAV4 >uses 412 watt-hrs/mi (again at the charger) This electricity is produced at a >fossil fueled plant (the energy used by EVs should be counted against the >incremental generator not the base plants since they represent a new load). >These plants need approximately 10,000 btus of fuel to produce 1,000 watt-hour of >energy. So the EV1 uses the equivalent of 2480 btus to travel a mile. Since >gasoline has 114,000 btus per gallon the EV1 is getting the equivalent of 46 >mpg. The RAV4EV is getting the equivalent of 28 mpg. Neither of these figures >beats a good ICE vehicle with the same performance. > >To reduce oil use with electric vehicles will require a nuclear based electrical >system. Until that happens we should save fuel by using mass transit (where >available), efficient ICE (vehicles not inefficient EVs and not SUVs), and by >cutting wasted travel. From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:10:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19197 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:10:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19193 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:10:47 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA11761 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:10:47 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:11:32 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <355c9045.14745312@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <1317811646-26702797@uia.net> In-Reply-To: <1317811646-26702797@uia.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id AAA19194 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 4 May 1998 19:40:10 -0700, "Robert Harris" wrote: >Properly done, ION can work on everything from a lawnmower to a Multi-staged >turbo intercooled alcohol fueled road rocket without any basic changes or >tuning. It simply must detect the knock related ionization event - which >incidentally will cause a low voltage dc conduction across the spark gap. >Simple. Non computerized, wazoo ized and eminently doable without anything >even approaching a DSP. Thas our baby. Ain't she a beaut!? Now if we can just coax her outta the womb. There's an interesting comment in the Saab book that this technique is "even adaptable to different fuel additives", which seems to support Robert's comment above about Alky. Go ION! Gar From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:11:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19211 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:11:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lnagate.foxboro.com.au (lnagate.foxboro.com.au [202.12.113.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA19206 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:10:58 -0400 Received: (qmail 4185 invoked from network); 5 May 1998 03:10:46 -0000 Received: from foxlnqtc.qtc.foxboro.com.au (HELO foxboro.com.au) (202.12.112.10) by gatekeeper.foxboro.com.au with SMTP; 5 May 1998 03:10:46 -0000 Received: from wayneb-nt (fwserver [202.12.112.56]) by foxboro.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA06380 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:54:21 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980505115427.0093f100@qtc-mail> X-Sender: wayneb@qtc-mail X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 11:54:27 +1000 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Wayne Blair Subject: Winmail.dat and Wasted band width Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi to all, Well I've been away for a few days and have just read all the DYI digests. I would guess that over 50% of the text was some one repeating in full some one elses message. This can go on for numerous levels. May I suggest that when replying to a message just include enough to let people know what you comment is directed to. We all saw the first message an if we did it will be easier too find if it not repeated so many times. I regularly have to flush my disk of winmail.dat files but this is less now, and thanks to who ever finally managed to stop that terrible bunkes of ascii encoded whatever. Hope I'm not stomping where I shouldn,t wayne From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:13:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19239 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:13:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19234 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:13:03 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-6.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.24]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id AAA20625 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:12:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: 747.ecu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 00:13:24 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd77dc$25e02940$18198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If some one has had time to start one, I'd appreciate seeing a copy (of 747.ecu), this is in reference to the delco edit. If someone has time, that would like to be involved with 101, that would be a good project. If someone also had the time to do a keystroke by keystroke how to for those of who are computer challenged it would be an ad to. TIA Bruce Sun roofs where invented by, I'm told, by yep, a Cone Shaped Hat wearer.... From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:24:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19441 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:24:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from relay1.impsat1.com (relay1.impsat1.com [200.31.1.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19436 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:24:02 -0400 Received: from mail.roche.com.ar (200.32.125.7.impsat.net.ar [200.32.125.7]) by relay1.impsat1.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA26736 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:23:45 +0300 (GMT) Received: from 200.32.125.20.impsat.net.ar [200.32.125.20] by mail.roche.com.ar (SMTPD32-4.03) id ACF44080078; Tue, 05 May 1998 01:25:24 PDT Received: by 200.32.125.20.impsat.net.ar with Microsoft Mail id <01BD77C4.526B48E0@200.32.125.20.impsat.net.ar>; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:22:51 -0300 Message-ID: <01BD77C4.526B48E0@200.32.125.20.impsat.net.ar> From: Anibal Aguirre To: "'DIY_EFI'" Subject: books??? Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:20:44 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu hi friends: does anybody know some good books about electronicas fuel injection (tune, optimize...etc) aplicated to racings cars??? any reply wiil be pleased. From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:27:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19474 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:27:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19470 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:27:34 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ART09324; Tue, 05 May 1998 00:25:21 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 00:06:12 -0400 Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Message-ID: <19980505.002443.10790.8.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <1317811646-26702797@uia.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-6,9-13,15-17,19,21-23,25,27-28,30-31,33,35-37,39, 41,43,45,47-48 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I remember this thread from a few weeks ago. I seem to recall someone mentioning that around 80V DC is put between ground and the end of the coil opposite the spark output. That way, the circuitry doesn't have to withstand the multi-kilovolt spike of the spark. If that's the case, it can only be used with a distributerless system. The gap in the distributer would leave you with an open circuit. Is this what you plan on doing, or are you going to come up with a circuit that will read a few milliamps of current and still withstand the big zap? Ray Drouillard On Mon, 4 May 1998 19:40:10 -0700 "Robert Harris" writes: >The disadvantage of an acoustical knock detector is that it detects the >"sound" of knocking, i.e. a certain frequency and type of noise that >unfortunately can be masked or enhanced by physical engine charactoristics >(aluminum, iron etc) and change's frequency etc by many factors and the fact >that ordinary engine noise has to be filtered out. > >The Ionization Knock Detector looks for a specific event in the combustion >gasses - the sudden appearance of ionization products after ignition. Since >this mechanism is not heavily engine material, size, fuel, temp, ambient >noise dependent for determining its characteristics, the detection of the >event is straightforward without the need of highly sophisticated self >anally extracting make TI rich DSP's. Start with a clean signal and you >don't need the hi fangle BS to make the system work - a strange concept I >know but once upon a time was considered the way to do things. > >Properly done, ION can work on everything from a lawnmower to a Multi-staged >turbo intercooled alcohol fueled road rocket without any basic changes or >tuning. It simply must detect the knock related ionization event - which >incidentally will cause a low voltage dc conduction across the spark gap. >Simple. Non computerized, wazoo ized and eminently doable without anything >even approaching a DSP. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:33:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19510 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:33:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from r2.boston.juno.com (r2.boston.juno.com [207.205.100.72]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19506 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:33:20 -0400 Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by r2.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id XAAAA12423 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:45:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XpN09324; Mon, 04 May 1998 23:43:23 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:11:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Refrigerants Message-ID: <19980504.234243.10790.0.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <199805040555.PAA22234@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5-10 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 4 May 1998 15:55:25 +1000 (EST) danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) writes: >Hmmmmmm..... I think he's onto me.... (just kidding). As I said before... It >has EVERYTHING to do with Fuel Injection (or at least that is a part of it. >But I can't really say more than that).... > >Danny Barrett. Awwwwwww Come On! We all promise not to tell anyone! _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:36:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19580 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:36:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from r2.boston.juno.com (r2.boston.juno.com [207.205.100.72]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19576 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:36:35 -0400 Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by r2.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id XAAAA12570 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XpU09324; Mon, 04 May 1998 23:43:24 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:46:21 -0400 Subject: Re: High MPG Message-ID: <19980504.234243.10790.7.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980504145745.007a89d0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5-9,11-24,33-34,37-38,44-45,52-54 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 04 May 1998 14:57:45 -0700 Frederic Breitwieser writes: >>Ceramic parts which operate without cooling and greater expansion ratios can >>reduce this energy wastage. None of which has anything to do with pushrods. > >Hello Gary, > >I didn't mean to imply that the pushrods are the culprit, I was merely >commenting that the 100 year old design has outlived its practicality, and >that new engineering should take place. > > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >Homebrew Automotive Website: >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HMMWV >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car I have seen several ideas tried, but none of them seemed to make the big time. The otto-cycle engine has also had a hundred years of of refinement. The Wankyl, Stirling, and turbine engine simply don't have all those thousands of hours of research and refinement behind them. The auto companies could make a go of it with the other designs, but the cost of the research would force them to charge a lot for the cars. So far, nobody is willing to take that big of a risk. We'll have to see something that is clearly superior before the auto manufactures get the courage to put the research necessary into it. We could, no doubt, get a Stirling engine to run well enough to power a car. The first few would have enough problems to make the owners wish for a good 'ol gasoline burner that "never gave me any trouble". Maybe the next major change in engine technology will be a steam turbine powered by cold fusion. Just put some coils or magnets around the edge of the turbine and draw the power off electromagnetically. Make the turbine and housing out of ceramic, use magnetic bearings, and just keep it running all the time to keep the temperature up to operating temperature. Anyhow, I fear that I have strayed off subject a tad. It'll be interesting to see how many people swear that the whole cold fusion thing is a hoax, how many believe that it works and has been supressed by the oil companys, and how many people (such as myself) think that there simply hasn't been enough clean research to draw a firm conclusion one way or the other ("I keep telling Orville and Wilbur that powered flight simply can't work!") Ray Drouillard _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:36:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19593 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:36:41 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from r2.boston.juno.com (r2.boston.juno.com [207.205.100.72]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19583 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:36:39 -0400 Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by r2.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id XAAAA12600 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XpS09324; Mon, 04 May 1998 23:43:24 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:12:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Refrigerants Message-ID: <19980504.234243.10790.5.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <199805031809.EAA05609@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4-7,9,11-13,15-29,33-34,36-38 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 04 May 1998 09:58:34 -0700 Frederic Breitwieser writes: >>It seems to me that someone sold an ultrasonic fuel atomizer several >>years ago. Has anyone seen one, or even heard of it? I don't think I'm >>imagining things... > >Your not imagining it Ray, when Danny first posted his thoughts without >revealing his "secret" what you suggested popped into my mind also. I do >believe there are ultrasonic FI systems, but I don't think it ever made it >to the market. I'm not entirely sure. > >May have been due to the fact that ultrasonic washing machines cost $1500 >and motor driven "swash bucket" washers cost $250. Might have been the >same issue - technology to expensive at this point. > > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >Homebrew Automotive Website: >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HMMWV >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car It may simply be ineffective. After all, ultrasonic humidifiers are pretty cheap. I would get one and mount the transducer to my manifold, but it might cause cracks or vibrate the thing loose or somehting unfortunate like that. The ad I saw (many moons ago) showed a couple of rods sitting under the carburater. Ray Drouillard _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:38:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19617 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:38:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from r2.boston.juno.com (r2.boston.juno.com [207.205.100.72]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19613 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:38:51 -0400 Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by r2.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id XAAAA12649 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XpO09324; Mon, 04 May 1998 23:43:23 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:11:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Refrigerants Message-ID: <19980504.234243.10790.1.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <199805040606.QAA25233@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,10-12,14-15,17-18,20,22-24,26-65 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have never heard of being able to bust a hydrocarbon chain apart with sound. If it did happen, you would get smaller molecules instead of bigger ones. That would increase the octane. Anyhow, my idea had nothing to do with chemically changing the gasoline. The sound would simply bust up the drops into really small droplets. If this was done at normal intake temperatures, the gas would evaporate, just like the water does with a humidifier. If you cool the fuel, the droplets won't evaporate nearly as readily. They would end up evaporating when the fuel/air mixture got hot enough to warm up the droplets. On Mon, 4 May 1998 16:06:14 +1000 (EST) danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) writes: >The fuel atomiser that I heard of actually "cracked" the fuel, but since >there was no hydrogen present, it only made the molecuels into longer chain >polymers(instead of smaller, higher octane molecules). Fuel economy and >power suffered dramatically (at least to what I had heard). There are better >ways of doing this (I know several people who are developing different types >of systems). >It sounds to me as if your idea is nearly to cool the fuel so it won't >evaporate, and then try to evaporate it, while not really evaporating it... >sounds unusual to me... > >Danny Barrett. > > >>On Mon, 4 May 1998 04:09:46 +1000 (EST) >danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au >>(Danny Barrett) writes: >>>Sorry, wrong again... >>>got nothing to do with an intercooler, in fact nothing to do with >the >>intake >>>air. Also, nothing to do with cooling the heads, although, I could >add >>it >>>in, and make the thing work even better..... >>> >>>Danny Barrett. >> >>Let's see... >> >>Cool the gasoline so that it won't vaporize readily. Inject it into >the >>manifold at that temperature, but hook up one of those ultrasonic >>transducers that they use in the ultrasonic humidifiers. That'll >atomize >>it into really small droplets that'll be too cold to readily >evaporate. >>That'll reduce the volume taken up by the vaporized fuel and allow >more >>air into the engine. >> >>It seems to me that someone sold an ultrasonic fuel atomizer several >>years ago. Has anyone seen one, or even heard of it? I don't think >I'm >>imagining things... >> >> >>Ray Drouillard _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:41:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19650 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:41:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from partech.com (partech.com [206.114.186.31]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19645 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:41:48 -0400 Received: from claven.partech.com (claven.partech.com [172.16.16.1]) by partech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA27597 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cliff.partech.com by claven.partech.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA02765; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:43:23 -0400 Received: by cliff.partech.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:44:26 -0600 Message-Id: From: Jim Velasquez To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V3 #193 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:44:25 -0600 X-Priority: 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey, folks, who says that future automobiles with INTERNAL combustion engines can't make use of electric drivetrains and FUEL CELLS? Supposedly said are in early development, and if some design challenges are solved, we could be looking at a HIGHLY efficient powerplant that could still burn gasoline (such a fuel cell DOES exist!). They output electricity, heat, and some combustion byproducts... We would then be doing exotic ELECTRIC motor swaps, so what? I for one would enjoy fitting such to one of my project cars. From: "Richard W. Cowan" Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 18:07:21 -0400 Subject: Re: High MPG At 02:24 AM 5/5/98 +1000, you wrote: >Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and money was >put into the development of a turbine engine (like the Chrysler one) as has >been put into the engines we currently run, the "200 MPG carb" type idea >would be a case of "so what!" In the case of the Chrysler turbine, it had a >very ingeneous heat transfer drvice that recycled otherwise wasted heat from Yes, ICEs are incredibly inefficient, and probably no amount of tweaking will ever make it as good as electric. Turbines are excellent compared to ICEs but they suck for stop-n-go. That's why they make great airplane engines and lousy auto engines. This is probably [nc], but IMO the words "automobile" and "efficient" are never going to go together until they are all switched to electric sometime (before you can say dead oil lobby). Then we'll have to change the list from DYIEFI to DYI(more amperage!). (Of course the electricity to charge the batteries will still be generated by coal-burning plants until we switch to nuclear). Hopefully by then we will be beyond the days of the electric-golf-cart-with-a-sloop-rig-for-windy-days. I had the opportunity to drive the GM EV1 and a Rav4 EV. The batteries are still friggin huge, range sucked, its still expensive, but the power output at the wheels was far beyond what I expected. The future doesn't look quite so dim anymore. Sorry for the rambling Richard BME '96, GA Tech. Go Jackets! http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vap1rc ------------------------------ From: "Derek Jewett" Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:01:28 -0700 Subject: Re: High MPG I have a hard time believing electric vehicles will ever replace or even compliment (on any scale) internal combustion engine powered vehicles. For example look at Honda's ZLEV engine, it produces such low emissions it actually cleans the air in smoggy areas!! (i.e. Los Angeles), and it has been proven that zero level emissions vehicles or ZLEV's I believe they're called, produce less emissions when compared to the emissions produced to generate enough electricity to power the same car the same distance, etc.. So in summary EFI will be around for a long time to come! This has been a CARB service message Derek Jewett - "clean air advocate" 1975 Chevy LUV w/383 small block carbureted, and lotsa black smoke! ------------------------------ From: "TBK" Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:40:13 -0700 Subject: Re: High MPG Chrysler Turbine: 120hp/425ftT-lbs torque - -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 10:46 AM Subject: Re: High MPG > >-----Original Message----- >From: Danny Barrett >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 12:55 PM >Subject: Re: High MPG > > >>Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and money was >put into the development of a turbine engine (like the Chrysler one) as has >been put into the engines we currently run, the "200 MPG carb" type idea >would be a case of "so what!" In the case of the Chrysler turbine, it had a >very ingeneous heat transfer drvice that recycled otherwise wasted heat from >the exhaust to the intake, thereby making the engine more efficient (this is >a bit more difficult with the IC engine to say the least - basically, it has >to be stored as chemical potential energy within the fuel, and this can only >>be done by chemically altering the fuel with an endothermic reaction). The >problem that I can see with the heat exchanger is that it didn't exchange >enough of the exhaust heat. Obviously, if it exchanged more, with a greater >efficiency, the engine would be more efficient - it's basic thermodynamics, >and it's even given a name - "Regenerative cycle" ie. recycle waste heat >>energy to raise the efficiency of the engine. And guess what... It's >easiest >>to do with some sort of turbine. Perhaps someone should revisit the old >>Chrisler engine and make the heat exchanger more efficient??? >> >>Danny Barrett. >> >> >The most impressive moment I had around the Chy Turbine car >was standing behind it, and the ambient temp rising from 60-70F >to well over 100, very quickly. Maybe an over impression of youth >but it made ya walk away in a hurrry. > >Bruce > > ------------------------------ From: "Christopher G. Moog" Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:04:57 -0400 Subject: Re: High MPG electic raving Richard W. Cowan wrote: > > Yes, ICEs are incredibly inefficient, and probably no amount of tweaking > will ever make it as good as electric. Turbines are excellent compared to > ICEs but they suck for stop-n-go. That's why they make great airplane > engines and lousy auto engines. Besides steady power requirements turbines don't size down well. Clearances along the edges remain the same size in large units as small so the small units are less efficient. This is while in small power generation (less than tens of kW diesel rule). Also why in trains and ships diesels are still the most popular power plant. > This is probably [nc], but IMO the words "automobile" and "efficient" are > never going to go together until they are all switched to electric sometime > (before you can say dead oil lobby). Then we'll have to change the list > from DYIEFI to DYI(more amperage!). (Of course the electricity to charge > the batteries will still be generated by coal-burning plants until we > switch to nuclear). Hopefully by then we will be beyond the days of the > electric-golf-cart-with-a-sloop-rig-for-windy-days. > > I had the opportunity to drive the GM EV1 and a Rav4 EV. The batteries are > still friggin huge, range sucked, its still expensive, but the power output > at the wheels was far beyond what I expected. The future doesn't look > quite so dim anymore. > > Sorry for the rambling > > Richard BME '96, GA Tech. Go Jackets! > http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vap1rc As far as electric goes they use more energy per mile than an efficient ICE automobile. The EV1 uses 248 watt-hrs/mi (measured at the charger) The RAV4 uses 412 watt-hrs/mi (again at the charger) This electricity is produced at a fossil fueled plant (the energy used by EVs should be counted against the incremental generator not the base plants since they represent a new load). These plants need approximately 10,000 btus of fuel to produce 1,000 watt-hour of energy. So the EV1 uses the equivalent of 2480 btus to travel a mile. Since gasoline has 114,000 btus per gallon the EV1 is getting the equivalent of 46 mpg. The RAV4EV is getting the equivalent of 28 mpg. Neither of these figures beats a good ICE vehicle with the same performance. To reduce oil use with electric vehicles will require a nuclear based electrical system. Until that happens we should save fuel by using mass transit (where available), efficient ICE (vehicles not inefficient EVs and not SUVs), and by cutting wasted travel. ------------------------------ From: "M&D" <91coupe@bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:17:54 -0400 Subject: Re: High MPG I, and countless thousands of others, take umbrage to your omission of the Wankel rotary engine as an alternative to pushrods. (What we call boingers). :) Seriously though, although the wankel wasn't very efficient to start with, Mazda's latest MSP-RE engine puts out like 225HP with 1.3 Liters, and gets 25 MPG or so. Naturally aspirated. Would that they would go into production... Anyway, just wanted to put a slant on things. Michael Harrington 91coupe@bellsouth.net and http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/downs/4038 91 RX-7 Coupe "Pearl" w/ some mods 88 RX-7 T2 "Beast" sitting in carport :( N3WJE Technician+ Ham - -----Original Message----- From: Frederic Breitwieser To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 10:58 AM Subject: High MPG >>Something you mentioned: I know of Charles Nelson Pogue's "200 MPG carb." >>And I know about the chemistry of how it worked, and why its results were >>not very reliable (I know more about the chemistry of it than he did at the >>time - but this doesn't take much). Asside from this, Pogue stated in an > >Unfortunately, these kind of devices and technology are basically bandaids >to a much greater problem, one of great inefficiency. A pushrod engine is >about as ineffecient as an engine can get, however it does have its merits. > I think once engineers start moving away from a 100 year old design, >things will definately get better mileage wise. I don't have the URLs >handy, however there are two such engines that have strayed away from >pushrods, but replacing the rotating assembly with a giant Cam. The cam, >instead of controlling valve timing, is driven by the pistons, which are >configured in a radial fashion. The one engine that is running (and in the >internet), creates very little horsepower, however the torque it generates >phenominal as compared to its weight, size, and configuration. > >I think pushrod engines waste something in the neighborhood of 80% of the >available power in the gasoline. > > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >Homebrew Automotive Website: >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HMMWV >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > >- > ------------------------------ From: Paul Tholey Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:50:12 -0400 Subject: Ford MAF Attn: Ford Guys A friend with a 1994 Escort GT, 1.8 twin cam is looking to do some minor modifications. The MAF is the flapper door style. It has a 7 pin connector. We pulled the other style MAF off a plain Escort. It has a 4 pin connector labled A B C D. Is there a way to incorporate this less restictive MAF into the twin cam Escort setup? I think they both have the same output, just concerned about the scaling. Anyother tips/advice is appreciated. Paul Tholey ------------------------------ From: Clare Snyder Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:39:19 -0400 Subject: Re: High MPG electic raving Christopher G. Moog wrote: > > Richard W. Cowan wrote: > > > > > Yes, ICEs are incredibly inefficient, and probably no amount of tweaking > > will ever make it as good as electric. Turbines are excellent compared to > > ICEs but they suck for stop-n-go. That's why they make great airplane > > engines and lousy auto engines. > > Besides steady power requirements turbines don't size down well. Clearances > along the edges remain the same size in large units as small so the small units > are less efficient. This is while in small power generation (less than tens of > kW diesel rule). Also why in trains and ships diesels are still the most popular > power plant. > > > This is probably [nc], but IMO the words "automobile" and "efficient" are > > never going to go together until they are all switched to electric sometime > > (before you can say dead oil lobby). Then we'll have to change the list > > from DYIEFI to DYI(more amperage!). (Of course the electricity to charge > > the batteries will still be generated by coal-burning plants until we > > switch to nuclear). Hopefully by then we will be beyond the days of the > > electric-golf-cart-with-a-sloop-rig-for-windy-days. > > > > I had the opportunity to drive the GM EV1 and a Rav4 EV. The batteries are > > still friggin huge, range sucked, its still expensive, but the power output > > at the wheels was far beyond what I expected. The future doesn't look > > quite so dim anymore. > > > > Sorry for the rambling > > > > Richard BME '96, GA Tech. Go Jackets! > > http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vap1rc > > As far as electric goes they use more energy per mile than an efficient ICE > automobile. The EV1 uses 248 watt-hrs/mi (measured at the charger) The RAV4 > uses 412 watt-hrs/mi (again at the charger) This electricity is produced at a > fossil fueled plant (the energy used by EVs should be counted against the > incremental generator not the base plants since they represent a new load). > These plants need approximately 10,000 btus of fuel to produce 1,000 watt-hour of > energy. So the EV1 uses the equivalent of 2480 btus to travel a mile. Since > gasoline has 114,000 btus per gallon the EV1 is getting the equivalent of 46 > mpg. The RAV4EV is getting the equivalent of 28 mpg. Neither of these figures > beats a good ICE vehicle with the same performance. > > To reduce oil use with electric vehicles will require a nuclear based electrical > system. Until that happens we should save fuel by using mass transit (where > available), efficient ICE (vehicles not inefficient EVs and not SUVs), and by > cutting wasted travel. In Ontario, we have been running on nuclear energy for many years. The CANDU is supposed to be the best system out there - and we are shutting virtually ALL of them down. Problems with maintenance and expense - Mabee if they privatise the system someone will manage to run it efficiently, but what about safely? I'm of a mixed mind on the subject. As for the efficiency arguement, a LARGE turbine is more efficient than a small one, and constant load helps too. Therfore, a properly designed oil or NG fired turbine generator can be a lot more efficient than current designs. Even with generator and transmission losses, the EV of tomorrow, including power generation, will likely be more efficient and less poluting on the whole than anything that exists today, and than any ICE of tomorrow. However, the EV of tomorrow will NOT depend on the grid for power. Ballard Energy, and others of their ilk, will see to that. Fuel cells will be the future. - -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! ------------------------------ From: Steven Gorkowski Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:38:22 -0500 Subject: depot boardsRe: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? I have access to a lab materials to remove most any epoxy from electronic parts. But can't promise if the unit will work but they work in 99% of the time.Contact me off line if you want this done. Steve kb4mxo@mwt.net garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > Hey Maties. > > I been keepin this under me hat for a while, but thot I'd spill the > beans and max out the fun, now that I have a Lab Rat working. Member > that thread awhile back about using the post-spark ionization current > to > detect detonation and misfires? Well, one of our illustrious members, > whose initials are Jim Crance (golly, I hope he doesn't mind taking a > bow), who's also a fellow pilot, got aholdOme and said he had a > slightly > marginal Trionic Ignition/Ionization unit from Saab that worked fine > excpet it hickup'd whenever it was in a deep freeze, and would I like > to > have a look? Jim's a Saab (& other Euro's) Mech. So I got the thang > last > week before last, along with a nice Saab 9000 manual Jim sent along, > and > danged if it don't look feasible to diy. > > The assembly's epoxy potted, so limits my snooping to watching it fly > from the outside (just as well), but like I said before, I figure > ANYTHING that's being mass deployed in the commercial auto market has > GOT to be diy'able; otherwise anything twitchy/complicated/sensitive > isn't gonna make it, and Saab's apparently been using this technology > since '93!! Does this remind you at all of EGOR? > > So, here's the plan. Just like before, instead of 'cheating' and > looking > inside, we'll use the same approach as on EGOR, and try to LEARN how > it > works, with yous guys help, like before. Now, since I'm not a member > of > SAE, and I see they want a $100/yr subscription JUST to search their > Paper's bibliography, I am soliciting help in locating any/all > articles/info on this system. I can't imagine Saab not touting it > upon/in-prep-for it's introduction in '93, so there have GOT to be > some > interesting/useful papers available. Soooo, any of yous guys with a > moment and a membership in SAE, could you start the ball rolling by > doing a search in the SAE Bibliography for any hits on the following > known good keywords: > Saab AND Trionic, "Ignition Discharge Module", Ionization, > etc. > > The manual Jim sent me says "The Saab Trionic system was introduced in > > 1993 on Saab 9000 models fitted with the B234L engine." The manual > itself if for '96, and assuming they're still using this Trionic stuff > > in '98, that means the thang's been deployed for 5 years. That oughta > be > enough to convince anyone it works, I would guess. [Saab sells alot of > > them Turbo 9000's, don't it? At any rate I sure see alot of them here > in > Calif. A fan of the yuppie crowd, ifyaknowadamean.] > > Finally, Fair Use allows us the privilege of posting a few of the key > pages from the manual to wet your appetite, so I'll scan a couple in > and > post them up on the FTP site. This could give ole EGOR a definitive > challenge to his nascent fameNnotoriety. Now he's gonna have > competition. Sorta like the Red & Yellow MnM bozos. Heh. > > Let's get'er rollin, dudes. Cuz this tech sure looks like it beats the > > acoustic knock detection schemes by a Swedish mile! And, unless we get > a > total firehose of activity on this and begin to overload the list, how > > bout you POST your finds instead of sending them to me privately. > Might > encourage the beehive effect, and bring everyone interested up to > speed > that much faster. [BTW, didy'all know that this gizmo is even used to > "commute" the spark/injection, by replacing the cam sensor? Yeah, it > detects which "other" pair of plugs is firing via ionization current, > and combined with the crank sensor for the "intersecting pair", > determines which cylinder is at TDC on it's power stroke. Cool, eh?] > > Cheers maties; if we pull THIS one off, we'll have to think seriously > about holding some kinda party or sumpin, eh? Could be fun. > > Gar ------------------------------ From: Frederic Breitwieser Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:44:27 -0700 Subject: Boingers >Anyway, just wanted to put a slant on things. Okay Michael, short and sweet- my apologies for not including the wankel in my suggestive list of inefficient antiquated technology :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - - ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:40:10 -0700 Subject: RE: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? The disadvantage of an acoustical knock detector is that it detects the "sound" of knocking, i.e. a certain frequency and type of noise that unfortunately can be masked or enhanced by physical engine charactoristics (aluminum, iron etc) and change's frequency etc by many factors and the fact that ordinary engine noise has to be filtered out. The Ionization Knock Detector looks for a specific event in the combustion gasses - the sudden appearance of ionization products after ignition. Since this mechanism is not heavily engine material, size, fuel, temp, ambient noise dependent for determining its characteristics, the detection of the event is straightforward without the need of highly sophisticated self anally extracting make TI rich DSP's. Start with a clean signal and you don't need the hi fangle BS to make the system work - a strange concept I know but once upon a time was considered the way to do things. Properly done, ION can work on everything from a lawnmower to a Multi-staged turbo intercooled alcohol fueled road rocket without any basic changes or tuning. It simply must detect the knock related ionization event - which incidentally will cause a low voltage dc conduction across the spark gap. Simple. Non computerized, wazoo ized and eminently doable without anything even approaching a DSP. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Don Berry > Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 10:12 AM > To: 'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > Subject: RE: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? > > > Has anyone considered use a DSP (digital signal processor) > for acoustic knock detection? I understand that they can actually operate > with a negative signal to noise ratio. > > Don > > ...and no, my Chevy does NOT run Windows! ;^) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > snip > > > Cuz this tech sure looks like it beats the acoustic knock > detection schemes by a Swedish mile! > ------------------------------ From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:03:18 -0700 Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? On Mon, 04 May 1998 20:38:22 -0500, Steven Gorkowski wrote: >I have access to a lab materials to remove most any epoxy from >electronic parts. But can't promise if the unit will work but they work >in 99% of the time.Contact me off line if you want this done. > >Steve As I mentioned before, I hope I don't have to resort to this, but I will look for another unit to maybe sacrifice. How bout you sharing the methods and materials used? I hope this is not another secret method. Sigh. Gar ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V3 #193 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:47:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19772 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:47:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from anvil.gatech.edu (root@anvil.gatech.edu [130.207.165.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19768 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:47:07 -0400 Received: from resnet.gatech.edu.gatech.edu (r53h96.res.gatech.edu [128.61.53.96]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA25793 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980505001311.0068fb00@pop.prism.gatech.edu> X-Sender: gt1040a@pop.prism.gatech.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:13:11 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: "Richard W. Cowan" Subject: MPG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well this may be an emotional subject for some, but I was not, ahem, "raving." To rebut the last post, the EV1 can go 70-90 miles on one charge of its batteries. This charge is the equivalent of about 1 gallon of gasoline. As I said, once the conversion to all nuclear power plants is made, this "true efficiency" will be realized. I expect that once the batteries are perfected (ie they don't way 1000 pounds!), we will see electric autos that are just as fun to drive and just as powerful as todays cars. We (the people) won't have it any other way! As far as mass transit goes...that's the only thing that scares me! I love cars. I fully expect future electrics to be just as bad-ass and fun as the Z28 I plan to buy in the not-too-distant future. What I fear is that one day we will rely so much upon mass transit that car production/consumption will plummet and cause car prices to rise to the point that private automobiles will be the exclusive privilege of the rich, large companies, and governments. Just think one day everyone rode around on horses, now it is the hobby of the rich. Richard http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vaps1rc From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 00:52:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19803 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:52:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19799 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:51:59 -0400 Received: from pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.106]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA10705 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:51:58 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:51:58 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050451.OAA10705@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Just so that the guesses can stop coming in (even though it has been discovered what I am intending)... I intend to build an in car "oil refinery." This may sound like a heap of BS to many, but others have researched the possibility, and found it might be viable IF it can be controled somehow. The basic principal behind it is to catalytically crack the fuel molecules, in the presence of hydrogen, and form methane. This reaction is an ENDOthermic reaction - ie. it requires energy (in the form of heat) to be put IN, and thereby, the products of the reaction are at a higher energy state than the fuel that was put in. Thus, otherwise wasted heat energy is stored CHEMICALLY, to be used within the engine. Because of this "recycling" effect, less fuel should be required for the same power output, and hence, greater efficiency. The main problem with methane as a fuel (from what I am told) is that it burns with a lower temperature than gasoline (this means it is more "explosive" in its reaction, but changes in ignition timing will cure this problem). Since it burns with a lower temperature, it might not produce exhaust gases hot enough to keep the catalytic cracking reaction going. This is where the refrigerants come in. Everyone knows about heat pumps... They use a little bit of energy to TRANSFER a large amount of energy from one place to another. This is how a home heat pump can have an efficiency of say 110% - The energy it TRANSFERS is FAR GREATER than the energy it uses. For those who can't grasp this - consider a fuel pump on an engine. It uses a small amount of energy, but it pumps fuel, which has a very large amount of energy stored in it (chemically). The heat pump is just the same. Also, a heat pump can take heat energy from a cold place, and put it into a warm place, making the cold place colder, and the warm place warmer. This is how you can sit in your cosy room at 30 deg C, when it is 0 deg C outside, simply by using a heat pump. How does the heat pump apply to the fuel system? Remember I said that the exhaust gases of the methane powered engine may be too cold to keep the reaction going? I intend to use a heat pump (using a little bit of energy) to TRANSFER a very large amount of energy from the exhaust (making it yet cooler), to the little oil refinery mounted on the engine (keeping it at the desired temperature). Hence, I have stipulated the refrigerant to be able to cope with temperatures of (at least) between 20 deg C, and 500 to 600 deg C. In actual fact, it would be better if it were to work at a larger temp range. This is also why I said that some kind of head cooling system would help my little project, although it isn't my project, per-say. However, I had thought of it before. If all of the wasted heat could be collected from the oil, the coolant system, and the exhaust (bearing in mind that both the coolant system, and the oil should be kept at their most efficient temperatures), then the system should (not saying it will) be more efficient still. In fact, it might be possible for such a system to replace the radiator, and recirculate the energy, instead of throwing it away by increasing the ambient air temperature. However, such a system would have a maximum efficiency, where the attempt to recycle any more energy would result in the system using more extra energy than it gains. I do not know where this point is, but I would like to find out. As for where EFI fits in, obviously, an EFI system can meter just the right amount of fuel (and water that is thermally cracked, and electrostatically separated into H(+) and O(2-) ions, then made into H2 and O2 inseparate chambers) needed more accurately than any carburettor will ever be able to. Also, it may be possible to have another EFI computer controling the heat pump, so that the little oil refinery can stay at its most efficient temperature. Any comments/ideas??? Danny Barrett. From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 01:00:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA19894 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:00:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA19890 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:00:12 -0400 Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8CPAa02231 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:59:22 -0400 (EDT) From: ECMnut Message-ID: <18defd82.354e9cab@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 00:59:22 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 747.ecu Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 98-05-05 00:23:41 EDT, you write: << Sun roofs where invented by, I'm told, by yep, a Cone Shaped Hat wearer.... >> Good one for a chuckle.. Thanks, Mike V From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 01:04:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA19996 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:04:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from r2.boston.juno.com (r2.boston.juno.com [207.205.100.72]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA19991 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:04:29 -0400 Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by r2.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id XAAAA12572 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XpR09324; Mon, 04 May 1998 23:43:24 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:12:32 -0400 Subject: Re: High MPG Message-ID: <19980504.234243.10790.4.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <01BD7750.FEE2FE20@ts2-10.rpt.cyberhighway.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-7,9,11,13,15-16,18-119 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gee, I wonder if that thing will fit under the hood of my Jeep Grand Wagoneer. 4000 to 5000 KW is around 5500 to 6800 HP. A little overpowered, I guess. I don't think my transfer case, driveshafts, and axles would be able to handle it :) Ray Drouillard On Mon, 4 May 1998 11:37:13 -0700 Mike Jones writes: >Solar Turbines, which is a unit of Caterpillar, has just launched a 4000 - >5000 kW machine that uses recuperation (or regenertaion, take your pick) to >pick up some 10% in efficiency. Now 40% simple-cycle vs. 30% previously. > Recuperation is not new certainly, but Solar may be the first to re >arrange components to more logically package the recuperator (the inlet and >exhaust are located at the center of the engine.) > >Mike J. > >>>Danny Barrett wrote: > >Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and money >was >put into the development of a turbine engine (like the Chrysler one) >as has >been put into the engines we currently run, the "200 MPG carb" type >idea >would be a case of "so what!" In the case of the Chrysler turbine, it >had a >very ingeneous heat transfer drvice that recycled otherwise wasted >heat >from the exhaust to the intake, thereby making the engine more >efficient >(this is a bit more difficult with the IC engine to say the least - >basically, it has to be stored as chemical potential energy within the > >fuel, and this can only >be done by chemically altering the fuel with an endothermic reaction). >The >problem that I can see with the heat exchanger is that it didn't >exchange >enough of the exhaust heat. Obviously, if it exchanged more, with a >greater >efficiency, the engine would be more efficient - it's basic >thermodynamics, >and it's even given a name - "Regenerative cycle" ie. recycle waste >heat >energy to raise the efficiency of the engine. And guess what... It's >easiest >to do with some sort of turbine. Perhaps someone should revisit the >old >Chrisler engine and make the heat exchanger more efficient??? > >Danny Barrett.>> > > > >begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT >M>)\^(A,2`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` >M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ >MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` >M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO >M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E >M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E >M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` >M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\MM961U)P`"`0LP`0```"<```!33510.D1)65]%1DE 149),S,R+D5.1RY/2$E/ >M+5-4051%+D5$50```P``.0`````+`$ Z`0````(!]@\!````! ````````*< >M2 $$@ $`#0```%)%.B!(:6=H($U01P!U`P$%@ ,`#@```,X'!0`$``L`)0`- >M``$`' $!(( #``X```#.!P4`! `+`!T`+ `!`#,!`0F `0`A````03DU03=" >M1#M```````#`"8```````L`*0```````P`N```````#`#8``````$ `.0!@<\*G >MBW>]`1X`< `!````#0```%)%.B!(:6=H($U01P`````"`7$``0```!8````! >MO7>+I[?7>UJJXVD1T:.@`* DT3H'```>`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X` >M'PP!````&0```')M:F]N97- 8WEB97)H:6=H=V%Y+FYE= `````#``80-5PV >M_0,`!Q! !0``'@`($ $```!E````4T],05)455)"24Y%4RQ72$E#2$E3055. >M251/1D-!5$524$E,3$%2+$A!4TI54U1,055.0TA%1$$T,# P+34P,#!+5TU! >M0TA)3D542$%455-%4U)%0U5015)!5$E/3BA/4E)%1P`````"`0D0`0```)(% >M``".!0``C D``$Q:1G4*_ 'O_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0"`&-H"L!S >M971N,@8`!L,"@S(#Q0(`<-QR<1(@!Q,"@S,#QA/H(C0/>FAE; ,@1&SJ9P*# >M-12=?0J ",\)V0\"@ J!#;$+8&YG,3#>,Q2 "PH74@P!8PW@!@!K!O *P50( >M<&(+@ >0+% @=VAI$; @! `@&&$@=0,`!4!O9B#H0V%T!)!P`Q M!"!J=7,%0 M@'G G$; )@!Y!-# A$" MQ" U(1)K5R `P1W0^1UP('01P 5 >M(! 'D1DP6&-U< 20'P!I`B @]B@%L1DP9PGP!) !D".AJQV@`9!K(E!Y"&$@ >M'T!H8VLI(F!O)9,>8'#<(',#<")0&P`E'A #H(\-P1W@") @@'DN( >P7F\' >MX"$`)R `D&T+4&6*+2?P8RD`('9S*!!F,R<1$Y!E=B.@(!!LS2@"4B,J'B%N >M;P5 '7 U!^!C)'-N*I =H&)U]P5 ',0`P'DM`")2(E GD-\1X 5 )@$9,!Y >MM(B,7!;$H+RXB++$2`!Y ;B# 97C_$< @$@K ,+(Q$!\0(,$NH?\N,2Q@`C $ >MD!ZR+B()\##P&1UP+BD*A0J+;&DQAC@A$ (`:2TQ-"$`+PS!.-,;KP70:24A >M2B[)-OP^/@M*,38<<@J@JP-@'Q!C!4!$`'!N+=#V0B\A$@!T.8\ >M.CPO/3@V_S@#,S8Y=]<4@AQ4/4=9'8))'D )PM4H$$D#H&8`T'1%8B)P/PN >M)F BM"X F`2XB#;!V%I!O<.\'@ (P'K(>4'0=-#9E(]"'.# E(2XB0VAR>2J _S72 >M'7 EX!_1'\$*A2WP"?#W2CPV= 0@=R^!"' 9, (PW3%!M3%!'+% *P&(B(F!Y5R-0'A -L&$*A7<(8&R_(, M\1Y0,1 1\!ZR(B:P^QVQ >M'P`A4S!&$353515->_],)1V@'I$1P"#!"H5+,$W0?RM<_)F-=%DM.#8SOS/U2J5*@2414@,9,&(MT/T`P&M9P38I,'0G=@5 ,O'_'B$$`%X_7T\] >M"QY0'5 %0/TP@V0&D">15' %0 /P(G#9+A-)0TR6)@%S+<$N(OM'] Q!%AE9=__9N]@3280+?$@(#"1(,$$(/T@D6TQ`B60/7$", M28%J,2=!+B,*4&S_2.1EM_W/2:A0#D0GP=>!M71%J-O]:8S/@$;$O807 'B%') 5 \6F 9&XG?/@*A0GP"& ^9QX`-@8S]5IB >M*!!/8O\J15AA'M >D7T622(9,!VA_7A#( G!'P)_5B>'4@1,I>]45V1](5 > >MD"<$(&R#8L/Q!&%Y;F%QL1V0"H4SHO^'\TLA`Z P\(JB'E")(2)0_2%0(BK@ >M)$,C@4LP+% I0O]3, B0*!!M9PI0!!%5PBZ2L$5PBE/_;)$'D(YV)@%UX&H4)K,FL&\`(#7S'30H$% $D!' >M<.<$(":R=?)S:%1C*B(`D/LU- ;P9 J%3;$$`$X"3*7?20,E$GR/+9%DBS^< >MH$'\_3W;+FV?'* \"&]507]"'U]#+!+R1$T*A1A1`*6P```#`! 0``````,` >M$1 #````0 `',.!U.)R*=[T!0 `(,.!U.)R*=[T!'@`]``$````%````4D4Z >/( `````#``TT_3<``/$F >` >end > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 01:07:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA20081 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:07:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from anvil.gatech.edu (root@anvil.gatech.edu [130.207.165.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA20077 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:07:14 -0400 Received: from resnet.gatech.edu.gatech.edu (r53h96.res.gatech.edu [128.61.53.96]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA00698 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:07:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980505010710.00693bd0@pop.prism.gatech.edu> X-Sender: gt1040a@pop.prism.gatech.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 01:07:11 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: "Richard W. Cowan" Subject: Re: High MPG electic raving Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 02:09 PM 5/5/98 +1000, you wrote: >Hmmm.... Sounds like we're stuck with the ICE. I don't really like the idea >of having a nuclear reactor in the car... NO. I was referring to the power plants that produce the electricity that goes to your house that charges your car's battery in your garage. When _they_ are all nuclear.... Richard http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vaps1rc From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 01:10:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA20196 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:10:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA20192 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:10:44 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA12887 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:10:45 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:11:30 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <356299df.17203015@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <1317811646-26702797@uia.net> <19980505.002443.10790.8.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <19980505.002443.10790.8.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id BAA20193 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 5 May 1998 00:06:12 -0400, cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) wrote: >I remember this thread from a few weeks ago. I seem to recall someone >mentioning that around 80V DC is put between ground and the end of the >coil opposite the spark output. That way, the circuitry doesn't have to >withstand the multi-kilovolt spike of the spark. Uh, actually, I'm not quite sure I totally believe the block diagram in the Saab book, but it shows the 80V source FLOATING on TOP of the HV secondary, not between gnd and the spark gap. FWIW. With a little research I should be able to get to the bottom of this seeming oddity, but you're right about the issue of "withstanding" the HV if it does indeed sit on the HV secondary. Ah, what is life without a few mysteries. >If that's the case, it >can only be used with a distributerless system. The gap in the >distributer would leave you with an open circuit. Yes, I think you're right, this technique is probably only suitable for direct IGN systems. But that ain't so bad. Lots of nice small per-plug coils available. We really WON'T know what the actual limitations are until we get the articles together and some of us start looking into it further. That's just part of the fun. >Is this what you plan on doing, or are you going to come up with a >circuit that will read a few milliamps of current and still withstand the >big zap? I'm figuring to tap into the research already done, and apply it, not get into any new basic technology meself. I'm more a development engineer than a researcher. At this point, the only system of this kind that I know of that's been deployed in the field is the Saab stuff, which IS direct per-plug IGN, so if that's all that's possible using this technique, I consider the benefits EASILY worth the slight eXtra effort to build the direct IGN system it needs to live with. That part's pretty much a no-brainer. Besides, I'm an admirer of per-plug IGN, anyways, so I won't need my arm twisted much by ION to make me go in that direction. An interesting little sidebar: The Saab system starts up in a bootstrap fashion, firing pairs of plugs and injectors at first, to get the engine started and the Ionization circuitry up and running, since until that's up, all it has is a crank sensor. Then once it's getting pulses from the Ionization detectors, it switches to full sequential on both IGN and INJ. Neat, huh? It also does some cool oddsNends kinda stuff at startup and shutdown, like multi-sparking during cranking, and then when you shut the engine down, after fuel delivery is shut off, it sparks the plugs a pile of times to clean them off. Clever them Swedes. Actually a better word would be "elegant". There is something very elegant and alluring about the whole design; that's one of the reasons I thot ION should be refered to as a "she", unlike that EGOR dude. He's got some interesting tricks, but he's more of a meatNpotatoes kinda guy. Not this ION lady; she's very slinky. Garfield the Anthropomorphite From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 01:16:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA20238 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:16:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA20234 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:16:29 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA13000 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:16:30 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:17:16 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35649ff9.18765468@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <199805050451.OAA10705@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <199805050451.OAA10705@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id BAA20235 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 5 May 1998 14:51:58 +1000 (EST), danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) wrote: >I intend to build an in car "oil refinery." >... >The basic principal behind it is to catalytically crack the fuel molecules, Whataminuto, dude. YOu meanta say you're gonna be makin CRACK in your car's engine? WHOA, you're right, when the DEA finds out about this, you really WILL be seeing some eXothermic reactions outta them. B) Gar (I couldn't help meself; my funnybone made me do it) From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 01:39:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA20468 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:39:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA20464 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:39:02 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA13484 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:39:01 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: The Decline and Fall of DIY-EFI Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:39:47 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <3568a3ec.19776140@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <1317811646-26702797@uia.net> <355c9045.14745312@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> In-Reply-To: <355c9045.14745312@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id BAA20465 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Catchy, eh? Maybe could build a rap song around that subject line. Heh. hey, is it just ME, or is this group goin down hill fast. All I see in my future is nuclear waste dumps from all this electric car stuff, OR it's drivin around our own personal Oil Refinery with CRACK comin outta the engine. Man what a bleak future is ahead! Oh well, not to worry, I'm not planning to live that long. But think of the children. B) Garfarkle P.S. I'm actin kinda goofy, cuz I just signed the papers today for my early retirement golden parachute deal, and am feelin kinda giddy as I'm about to become a truly free man. Plannin on takin the whole summer off, playing with my airplanes, engines, EGOR and ION. Life is GOOD. From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 02:12:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA21039 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:12:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21035 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:12:08 -0400 Received: from pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.106]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02284 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:12:05 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:12:05 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050612.QAA02284@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Refrigerants X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I hayou would get smaller molecules instead of >bigger ones. That would increase the octane. Not so - the previously branched molecules link together, since there are no hydorgens to link with them. This produces longer molecules than we had before, so lower octane. In any sort of "refining" (ie. making smaller molecules, and also branched/cyclical ones), hydrogen is almost invariably present in the process to prevent larger molecules from being formed. From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 02:17:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA21122 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:17:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.arlec.com.au (mail.arlec.com.au [203.36.152.195]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21118 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:17:46 -0400 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Tue, 05 May 1998 17:12:05 +1000 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from default (192.1.8.200::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.6); Tue, 05 May 1998 17:12:04 +1000 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:12:02 +0800 Message-ID: <01BD7840.89E57BC0.dzorde@soanar.com.au> From: Dan Zorde To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: MPG Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:11:53 +0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 25 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Yeah, but imagine having to try and transplant an electric motor into your Z28 because petrol is no longer available. I like the shape of the older cars and dread the day we can no longer keep them running on the roads. Anyway, imagine how bored we would all be, how do you fiddle with an electric car ? Everything would already be fully optimized from the manufacturer. Dan dzorde@soanar.com.au -----Original Message----- From: Richard W. Cowan [SMTP:gt1040a@prism.gatech.edu] Sent: Tuesday, 05 May, 1998 12:13 PM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: MPG As far as mass transit goes...that's the only thing that scares me! I love cars. I fully expect future electrics to be just as bad-ass and fun as the Z28 I plan to buy in the not-too-distant future. What I fear is that one day we will rely so much upon mass transit that car production/consumption will plummet and cause car prices to rise to the point that private automobiles will be the exclusive privilege of the rich, large companies, and governments. Just think one day everyone rode around on horses, now it is the hobby of the rich. Richard http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vaps1rc From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 02:29:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA21316 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:29:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21312 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:29:24 -0400 Received: from pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.106]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA06522 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:29:21 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:29:21 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050629.QAA06522@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Har-de-har-de-har! Good one mate. I never thought of turning my car into an ilicit drugs factory... I see we've got a funny one here (not that I can talk...). :-) >On Tue, 5 May 1998 14:51:58 +1000 (EST), danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au >(Danny Barrett) wrote: > >>I intend to build an in car "oil refinery." >>... >>The basic principal behind it is to catalytically crack the fuel molecules, > >Whataminuto, dude. YOu meanta say you're gonna be makin CRACK in your >car's engine? WHOA, you're right, when the DEA finds out about this, you >really WILL be seeing some eXothermic reactions outta them. > >B) > >Gar (I couldn't help meself; my funnybone made me do it) > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 02:32:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA21403 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:32:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21399 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:32:16 -0400 Received: from pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab6.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.106]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA07283 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:32:14 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:32:14 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050632.QAA07283@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: The Decline and Fall of DIY-EFI X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu You really DID hit your funny bone, didn't you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >Catchy, eh? Maybe could build a rap song around that subject line. Heh. > >hey, is it just ME, or is this group goin down hill fast. All I see in >my future is nuclear waste dumps from all this electric car stuff, OR >it's drivin around our own personal Oil Refinery with CRACK comin outta >the engine. Man what a bleak future is ahead! > >Oh well, not to worry, I'm not planning to live that long. But think of >the children. > >B) > >Garfarkle > >P.S. I'm actin kinda goofy, cuz I just signed the papers today for my >early retirement golden parachute deal, and am feelin kinda giddy as I'm >about to become a truly free man. Plannin on takin the whole summer off, >playing with my airplanes, engines, EGOR and ION. Life is GOOD. > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 02:35:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA21478 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:35:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from uia.net (uia.net [157.22.213.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21474 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:35:10 -0400 Received: from tyan-machine (157.22.213.76) by uia.net with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0.1); Mon, 4 May 1998 23:35:41 -0700 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: RE: Refrigerants, Wide range EGO and other thoughts. Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 23:35:04 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <01BD782D.E930E8C0.dzorde@soanar.com.au> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Message-ID: <1317797549-27550668@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Check this site out and links for the "Truth" of ammonia http://www.bdf2001.com/articles/nh3.html > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Dan Zorde > Sent: Monday, May 04, 1998 10:59 PM > To: 'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' > Subject: RE: Refrigerants, Wide range EGO and other thoughts. > > > Just place a Hazchem sticker on your car, and hope you don't have > an accident. > I'm sure the EPA would have a few things to say after a gallon or so of > ammonium have spilt all over the road and knocked out any nearby > witnesses. > Would look spectacular but. > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 02:44:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA21739 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:44:46 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from dialup0.bushnell.net (root@dialup0.bushnell.net [207.177.24.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21735 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:44:45 -0400 Received: from Avonil.net.AvonIL.net (system-205.avonil.net [207.177.24.205]) by dialup0.bushnell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA19386 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:42:33 -0500 Message-ID: <008c01bd77f1$5349a180$cd18b1cf@Avonil.net.AvonIL.net> From: "Dave Balfour" To: Subject: electric cars - costs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:44:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu well if it takes 28 hp to accellerate and run down the road that means that it takes 20 kw of power say you drive for an hour each day that is 20kw hours. assuming 40% effiency that means that it takes 50 kwh of energy from the grid. that is about 7dollars around here. now once you figure in the tax that needs to be imposed to offset the tax loss for not having the gas tax to pay for roads etc. that would add another dollar. so it is 8 dollars. If there are a lot of people using electricity the price will go up so add another buck and we are up to 9 dollars That doesnt compare well to the 2 or 3 gallons of gas. Add in the price of new batteries every 2-3 years ouch. At some point when gas becomes 3-4 dollars per gallon then it begins to make sense but not until. dave balfour -----Original Message----- From: Richard W. Cowan To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 12:48 AM Subject: MPG >Well this may be an emotional subject for some, but I was not, ahem, >"raving." To rebut the last post, the EV1 can go 70-90 miles on one charge >of its batteries. This charge is the equivalent of about 1 gallon of >gasoline. As I said, once the conversion to all nuclear power plants is >made, this "true efficiency" will be realized. I expect that once the >batteries are perfected (ie they don't way 1000 pounds!), we will see >electric autos that are just as fun to drive and just as powerful as todays >cars. We (the people) won't have it any other way! > >As far as mass transit goes...that's the only thing that scares me! I love >cars. I fully expect future electrics to be just as bad-ass and fun as the >Z28 I plan to buy in the not-too-distant future. What I fear is that one >day we will rely so much upon mass transit that car production/consumption >will plummet and cause car prices to rise to the point that private >automobiles will be the exclusive privilege of the rich, large companies, >and governments. Just think one day everyone rode around on horses, now it >is the hobby of the rich. > >Richard >http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vaps1rc > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 02:52:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA22019 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:52:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA22015 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:52:52 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yWbdy-0001RwC; Tue, 5 May 98 02:56 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:56:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <199805050451.OAA10705@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> from "Danny Barrett" at May 5, 98 02:51:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Just so that the guesses can stop coming in (even though it has been > discovered what I am intending)... > > I intend to build an in car "oil refinery." This may sound like a heap of BS > to many, but others have researched the possibility, and found it might be > viable IF it can be controled somehow. why crack petroleum there may be another porduct that when cracked produces more useful energy from the cracking process CO2 could produce O2, methane and watse water ( and would be available in the ex) NH4 could produce H2 and N2O H2O can produce H2 and O2 Alcohols can produce a variety of compounds there has to be tons more Clive From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 03:01:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA22296 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:01:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA22292 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:01:54 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yWbmg-0001RyC; Tue, 5 May 98 03:05 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 03:05:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <355880c0.10772015@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> from "garfield@pilgrimhouse.com" at May 4, 98 08:03:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu a lot of epoxys trun into a gooey jellified mess if exposed to high levels of UV light Clive > > >I have access to a lab materials to remove most any epoxy from > >electronic parts. But can't promise if the unit will work but they work > >in 99% of the time.Contact me off line if you want this done. > > > >Steve > > As I mentioned before, I hope I don't have to resort to this, but I will > look for another unit to maybe sacrifice. How bout you sharing the > methods and materials used? > > I hope this is not another secret method. Sigh. > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 03:08:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA22447 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:08:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ns1.foothill.net (ns1.foothill.net [206.170.175.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA22443 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:08:31 -0400 Received: from terryk (tahoe-d48.foothill.net [209.76.43.48]) by ns1.foothill.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA08092 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:08:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "TBK" To: Subject: Re: electric cars - costs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 00:06:52 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd77f4$615492a0$302b4cd1@terryk.foothill.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I always saw it this way... I can go further on a battery full of gas than a battery full of electricity. Until it is the other way around...... -----Original Message----- From: Dave Balfour To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 12:06 AM Subject: electric cars - costs >well if it takes 28 hp to accellerate and run down the road that >means that it takes 20 kw of power say you drive for an hour each day >that is 20kw hours. assuming 40% effiency that means that it takes 50 >kwh of energy from the grid. that is about 7dollars around here. now >once you figure in the tax that needs to be imposed to offset the tax >loss for not having the gas tax to pay for roads etc. that would add >another dollar. so it is 8 dollars. If there are a lot of people >using electricity the price will go up so add another buck and we are >up to 9 dollars That doesnt compare well to the 2 or 3 gallons of >gas. Add in the price of new batteries every 2-3 years ouch. At some >point when gas becomes 3-4 dollars per gallon then it begins to make >sense but not until. >dave balfour >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard W. Cowan >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 12:48 AM >Subject: MPG > > >>Well this may be an emotional subject for some, but I was not, ahem, >>"raving." To rebut the last post, the EV1 can go 70-90 miles on one >charge >>of its batteries. This charge is the equivalent of about 1 gallon >of >>gasoline. As I said, once the conversion to all nuclear power >plants is >>made, this "true efficiency" will be realized. I expect that once >the >>batteries are perfected (ie they don't way 1000 pounds!), we will >see >>electric autos that are just as fun to drive and just as powerful as >todays >>cars. We (the people) won't have it any other way! >> >>As far as mass transit goes...that's the only thing that scares me! >I love >>cars. I fully expect future electrics to be just as bad-ass and fun >as the >>Z28 I plan to buy in the not-too-distant future. What I fear is >that one >>day we will rely so much upon mass transit that car >production/consumption >>will plummet and cause car prices to rise to the point that private >>automobiles will be the exclusive privilege of the rich, large >companies, >>and governments. Just think one day everyone rode around on horses, >now it >>is the hobby of the rich. >> >>Richard >>http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vaps1rc >> > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 03:15:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA22533 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:15:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA22529 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:15:34 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yWbzy-00001wC; Tue, 5 May 98 03:18 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: MPG To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 03:18:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <01BD7840.89E57BC0.dzorde@soanar.com.au> from "Dan Zorde" at May 5, 98 04:11:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > As far as mass transit goes...that's the only thing that scares me! I love > cars. I fully expect future electrics to be just as bad-ass and fun as the > Z28 I plan to buy in the not-too-distant future. What I fear is that one > day we will rely so much upon mass transit that car production/consumption > will plummet and cause car prices to rise to the point that private > automobiles will be the exclusive privilege of the rich, large companies, > and governments. Just think one day everyone rode around on horses, now it > is the hobby of the rich. this is easy install larger volatge conversion drivers and a more powerful motor reprogram the time slice divider and away you go double your power very easily Clive From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 03:51:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA22998 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:51:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA22994 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:51:17 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-018.mcn.net [208.26.146.18]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA10821 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:51:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354EC1CE.BAA3FA1E@mcn.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 01:37:50 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: 101 Stuff References: <002201bd776a$bfb21640$a2fffed0@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu David wrote: > > Shannon, > > It is self service. > > You have to go and see what they have. It is located about 6 miles east of > downtown St. Louis, MO. > > I can provide the exact address and phone number if that helps you. > > David >snip< Umm... thanks, but the fuel bill to get there would eat up the savings. It's about 1292 miles. then again, if I'm in the area I'll let you know. : ) Shannen From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 04:46:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA23668 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 04:46:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA23664 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 04:46:30 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD780A.3811AB10@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:43:12 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Boingers Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:43:11 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 37 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am amazed that someone who is obviously not stupid should bad mouth the wankle rotary engine.. It is quite simply the proper design for an engine. Yea alright the design is flawed due to the problem with the seals wearing, but in this day and age with ceramic technology there must be a way to make this problem go away. I have always wanted a car engine that revs to 14,000 rpm with good efficiency. But thats my problem Rob Humphris >---------- >From: Frederic Breitwieser[SMTP:frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com] >Sent: 05 May 1998 05:44 >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Boingers > >>Anyway, just wanted to put a slant on things. > >Okay Michael, short and sweet- my apologies for not including the wankel in >my suggestive list of inefficient antiquated technology :) > > > > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >Homebrew Automotive Website: >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HMMWV >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > >- > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 05:10:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA23901 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:10:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA23897 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:10:40 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-018.mcn.net [208.26.146.18]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA10717 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:10:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354ED46A.A57BC291@mcn.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 02:57:14 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. References: <199805050451.OAA10705@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Danny Barrett wrote: > I intend to build an in car "oil refinery." This may sound like a heap of BS > to many, but others have researched the possibility, and found it might be > viable IF it can be controled somehow. > > The basic principal behind it is to catalytically crack the fuel molecules, > in the presence of hydrogen, and form methane. This reaction is an > ENDOthermic reaction - ie. it requires energy (in the form of heat) to be > put IN, and thereby, the products of the reaction are at a higher energy > state than the fuel that was put in. Thus, otherwise wasted heat energy is > stored CHEMICALLY, to be used within the engine. Because of this "recycling" > effect, less fuel should be required for the same power output, and hence, > greater efficiency. > > > > Any comments/ideas??? > > Danny Barrett. Realizing that it's the phase changes of the refrigerant which "move" energy, I got to wondering today how much heat could be transferred by mercury? What's the boiling point of this metal? And would thermal conductivity be an approprate term to use here? Shannen Volunteer for community service! Use your CSH to collect donations for the poor. From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 05:35:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA24221 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:35:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA24217 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:35:01 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-018.mcn.net [208.26.146.18]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA13205 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:35:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354EDA20.7778AFF1@mcn.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 03:21:36 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: MPG References: <3.0.32.19980505001311.0068fb00@pop.prism.gatech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Richard W. Cowan wrote: > > Well this may be an emotional subject for some, but I was not, ahem, > "raving." To rebut the last post, the EV1 can go 70-90 miles on one charge > of its batteries. This charge is the equivalent of about 1 gallon of > gasoline. As I said, once the conversion to all nuclear power plants is > made, this "true efficiency" will be realized. I expect that once the > batteries are perfected (ie they don't way 1000 pounds!), we will see > electric autos that are just as fun to drive and just as powerful as todays > cars. We (the people) won't have it any other way! > > As far as mass transit goes...that's the only thing that scares me! I love > cars. I fully expect future electrics to be just as bad-ass and fun as the > Z28 I plan to buy in the not-too-distant future. What I fear is that one > day we will rely so much upon mass transit that car production/consumption > will plummet and cause car prices to rise to the point that private > automobiles will be the exclusive privilege of the rich, large companies, > and governments. Just think one day everyone rode around on horses, now it > is the hobby of the rich. > > Richard > http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vaps1rc Uh-huh. I'm 50mi from the next town. People around here travel 70 mi one way to have work done on their car. Mass transit is packing four people into the same pickup. If you ranch cattle, you raise and ride horses to work your stock. Electric vehicles have a very limited use in this area. I don't think you will have to fear the loss of personal transportation or the death of the ICE anytime soon. It wasn't that many years ago that synthetic oils were exotic and unreliable. Now production vehicles are equipped with them. There are plenty of alternative fuel options now, and there will be more as oil supplies decline. If my grandmother can adapt enough to use a computer, we can certainly adapt enough to burn alternative fuels in our autos. Shannen From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 05:42:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA24292 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:42:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA24287 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:42:04 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA10189 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:41:59 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:41:59 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050941.TAA10189@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I assume you mean to crack the CO2 (etc.) at home and put it in the car - may be possible, but storage within the car could be a problem. If you mean to crack the CO2 in the car, then, since you're starting with CO2 as your "fuel" (lowest energy level possible for carbon in the combustion process), and you're ending up with CO2, there is no net energy input (unless you are burning N2 - naughty, naughty), then there is no energy left to run the vehicle. In actual fact, when you include losses (and there will be), then all that is going to happen is your car will sit there and do nothing... HEY! GREAT IDEA!!! Don't use the car, and you save a packet on fuel bills!!! As for petroleum, it is at a relatively high energy level, so there is something there to work from... In my device, I know that there is going to be a slight loss of energy because I have to crack water, and then in the engine, make it again - ie. no net gain, only losses because of inefficiencies. HOWEVER, cracking the water makes it possible to leave the hydrocarbons in a stable form, once cracked, and THIS is where the efficiency gains are to be seen. With this, it is like losing 3 units (through inefficiencies in the cracking process), and gaining 10 units because you've given up the 3 - ie a net gain of 7 units. Of course, these are arbitrary numbers, but you can see what I mean. As for the viability of in caar cracking of NH4, instead of hydrocarbons, I'll have to look up the energy levels of NH4, H2 and N2O, respectively to see if it is viable. What can we get NH4 from? However, the problem with this stuff is that the polution levels are too high. The car would be pumping out practically pure photochemical smog. This might be OK on the race track, but not in everyday driving, where I intend to use my device. Alcohols are possible, but the bigger ones would be preferable (ie. propanol, octanol, etc), as the smaller ones would not give that much of an increase in energy when cracked. >why crack petroleum >there may be another porduct that when cracked produces more useful >energy from the cracking process >CO2 could produce >O2, methane and watse water ( and would be available in the ex) >NH4 could produce H2 and N2O >H2O can produce H2 and O2 >Alcohols can produce a variety of compounds From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 05:50:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA24421 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:50:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA24416 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:50:44 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA11149 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:50:41 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:50:41 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050950.TAA11149@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: MPG X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Not like that... You're CREATING energy there (either that or using the batteries up in half the time). Remember, P=EI Power = Voltage times Current. If your Voltage goes up, your current will go down for the same power. If you double the power, you halve the life of the battery. If you have a voltage conversion driver, and the voltage out is twice the voltage in, then the current out is HALF the current in - same power, not double. Nice try though. Also, if you don't believe me, I don't mind, but don't try to argue about it (just a warning). In my first and second years in my engineering degree, I was taught enough about electricity to know better than that. >this is easy >install larger volatge conversion drivers and a more powerful motor >reprogram the time slice divider and away you go >double your power very easily > >Clive > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 05:55:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA24506 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:55:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA24492 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:55:04 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA11665 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:55:00 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:55:00 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805050955.TAA11665@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: RE: Boingers X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I don't blame you! Who wouldn't want an engine which can rev up to 14000 RPM safely, with good efficiency (with the possible exception of oil co's for the decrease in oil used). >I am amazed that someone who is obviously not stupid should bad mouth >the wankle rotary engine.. It is quite simply the proper design for an >engine. Yea alright the design is flawed due to the problem with the >seals wearing, but in this day and age with ceramic technology there >must be a way to make this problem go away. I have always wanted a car >engine that revs to 14,000 rpm with good efficiency. > >But thats my problem > >Rob Humphris > >>---------- >>From: Frederic Breitwieser[SMTP:frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com] >>Sent: 05 May 1998 05:44 >>To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>Subject: Boingers >> >>>Anyway, just wanted to put a slant on things. >> >>Okay Michael, short and sweet- my apologies for not including the wankel in >>my suggestive list of inefficient antiquated technology :) >> >> >> >> >>Frederic Breitwieser >>Bridgeport, CT 06606 >> >>Homebrew Automotive Website: >>http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ >> >>1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >>1989 HMMWV >>2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car >> >>- >> > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 06:19:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA25048 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 06:19:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25043 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 06:19:36 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD7817.39B005E0@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:16:18 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:16:16 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 59 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >From what seemed like a list dealing with real and tangible automotive subjects, only occasionally dipping into the hypothetical 'what-ifs' of future developments and theorectical ideas, I now find my mail box full of the rantings of lunatics... When will we move onto the subjects of magnetic levitation? or how about perpetual motion, better still time travel? For Bobs sake get a grip on reality. There are still openings for fuel scientists to work on Cold fusion reactors, these are theoretically possible. In car oil refinery... will you sell diesel as you drive along? Hey you could have an in car injection molding facility in the boot, and produce plastic dinosaurs that you could give away free with each gallon of avaiation fuel that you sell. Rob Humphris >---------- >From: Shannen Durphey[SMTP:shannen@mcn.net] >Sent: 05 May 1998 09:57 >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. > >Danny Barrett wrote: > >> I intend to build an in car "oil refinery." This may sound like a heap of >>BS >> to many, but others have researched the possibility, and found it might be >> viable IF it can be controled somehow. >> >> The basic principal behind it is to catalytically crack the fuel molecules, >> in the presence of hydrogen, and form methane. This reaction is an >> ENDOthermic reaction - ie. it requires energy (in the form of heat) to be >> put IN, and thereby, the products of the reaction are at a higher energy >> state than the fuel that was put in. Thus, otherwise wasted heat energy is >> stored CHEMICALLY, to be used within the engine. Because of this >>"recycling" >> effect, less fuel should be required for the same power output, and hence, >> greater efficiency. >> >> >> >> Any comments/ideas??? >> >> Danny Barrett. > >Realizing that it's the phase changes of the refrigerant >which "move" energy, I got to wondering today how much heat >could be transferred by mercury? What's the boiling point >of this metal? And would thermal conductivity be an >approprate term to use here? > >Shannen > >Volunteer for community service! Use your CSH to collect >donations for the poor. > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 06:40:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA25472 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 06:40:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA25466 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 06:40:29 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA17371 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:40:25 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:40:25 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805051040.UAA17371@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu It all depends on the pressure inside the tubes where the mercury is. Bsaically, it's the age old design problem of having to make an assumption first, do the calculations, and then redesign, then calculate again, redesign, etc.... until the calculations no longer change the design. One VERY important point here is that Aluminum (Aluminium for us Aussies) should not be in contact with mercury, especially if it is in the vapor form, as mercury eats Alum's protective oxide layer, and corrodes the Alum VERY quickly, causing a Mercury leak - not good fun!!! >Realizing that it's the phase changes of the refrigerant >which "move" energy, I got to wondering today how much heat >could be transferred by mercury? What's the boiling point >of this metal? And would thermal conductivity be an >approprate term to use here? > >Shannen > >Volunteer for community service! Use your CSH to collect >donations for the poor. > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 08:02:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26376 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:02:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [207.25.206.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26372 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:01:57 -0400 Received: from dilbert (pix-233.nordson.com [207.206.59.233]) by users.qual.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/CICnet/IAG) with SMTP id IAA13679 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008001bd781d$218cc420$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> From: "Gary Derian" To: Subject: Re: High MPG Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 07:58:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >At 02:24 AM 5/5/98 +1000, you wrote: >>Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and money was >>put into the development of a turbine engine (like the Chrysler one) as has >>been put into the engines we currently run, the "200 MPG carb" type idea >>would be a case of "so what!" In the case of the Chrysler turbine, it had a >>very ingeneous heat transfer drvice that recycled otherwise wasted heat from > Richard Cowan wrote: >Yes, ICEs are incredibly inefficient, and probably no amount of tweaking >will ever make it as good as electric. Turbines are excellent compared to >ICEs but they suck for stop-n-go. That's why they make great airplane >engines and lousy auto engines. Turbines are not that efficient, gas or steam, because high expansion temperatures will melt down the turbine blades. ICE's are better because their expansion is intermittent and can occur at high temperatures. Unfortunately the lose out when throttled back. Electric is not very efficient if you consider the total scheme. The electric generators are no more efficient than the good old ICE (40%). Then you add the power loss in transmission, converting to chemical energy for the battery, then reconverting to electric, then finally getting mechanical energy from the motor. Add this up and the electric car is only 5% efficient. A GM EV1 with a gasoline engine would get 80+ mpg. Gary Derian From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 08:14:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26501 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:14:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [207.25.206.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26497 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:14:18 -0400 Received: from dilbert (pix-233.nordson.com [207.206.59.233]) by users.qual.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/CICnet/IAG) with SMTP id IAA14403 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <009d01bd781e$da61b3b0$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> From: "Gary Derian" To: Subject: Re: High MPG Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:10:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The thermodynamics of Sterling, Wankle, turbine are all governed by the same laws. Low temperature compression, high temperature expansion. This is what drives efficiency. These alternatives all have their place in the world but none of them offer an increase in efficiency. In my opinion, the best currently available technology is a hybrid vehicle: electric drive, small battery for acceleration, small diesel to generate the average power needed and regenerative braking. Toyota even builds one for sale, but with gasoline at $1 a gallon, its just not worth it. Gary Derian From: Raymond C Drouillard >On Mon, 04 May 1998 14:57:45 -0700 Frederic Breitwieser > writes: >>>Ceramic parts which operate without cooling and greater expansion >ratios can >>>reduce this energy wastage. None of which has anything to do with >pushrods. >> >>Hello Gary, >> >>I didn't mean to imply that the pushrods are the culprit, I was merely >>commenting that the 100 year old design has outlived its practicality, >and >>that new engineering should take place. >> >> >>Frederic Breitwieser >>Bridgeport, CT 06606 >> >>Homebrew Automotive Website: >>http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ >> >>1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >>1989 HMMWV >>2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > >I have seen several ideas tried, but none of them seemed to make the big >time. The otto-cycle engine has also had a hundred years of of >refinement. The Wankyl, Stirling, and turbine engine simply don't have >all those thousands of hours of research and refinement behind them. The >auto companies could make a go of it with the other designs, but the cost >of the research would force them to charge a lot for the cars. So far, >nobody is willing to take that big of a risk. We'll have to see >something that is clearly superior before the auto manufactures get the >courage to put the research necessary into it. > >We could, no doubt, get a Stirling engine to run well enough to power a >car. The first few would have enough problems to make the owners wish >for a good 'ol gasoline burner that "never gave me any trouble". > >Maybe the next major change in engine technology will be a steam turbine >powered by cold fusion. Just put some coils or magnets around the edge >of the turbine and draw the power off electromagnetically. Make the >turbine and housing out of ceramic, use magnetic bearings, and just keep >it running all the time to keep the temperature up to operating >temperature. > >Anyhow, I fear that I have strayed off subject a tad. It'll be >interesting to see how many people swear that the whole cold fusion thing >is a hoax, how many believe that it works and has been supressed by the >oil companys, and how many people (such as myself) think that there >simply hasn't been enough clean research to draw a firm conclusion one >way or the other ("I keep telling Orville and Wilbur that powered flight >simply can't work!") > >Ray Drouillard From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 08:55:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27140 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:55:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [207.25.206.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27134 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:55:39 -0400 Received: from dilbert (pix-233.nordson.com [207.206.59.233]) by users.qual.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/CICnet/IAG) with SMTP id IAA17678 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00ec01bd7824$a1029a20$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> From: "Gary Derian" To: Subject: Re: High MPG Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:51:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Of course they are, one of my points is if we can't afford it, whats the point? Lets continue the research, though. Gary Derian From: Danny Barrett >I agree about the ceramic engines, but aren't they a bit expensive??? > >>>Ceramic parts which operate without cooling and greater expansion ratios can >>reduce this energy wastage. None of which has anything to do with pushrods. >> >>Gary Derian >> >> >> >>>I think pushrod engines waste something in the neighborhood of 80% of the >>>available power in the gasoline. >>> >>>Frederic Breitwieser From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 09:35:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27690 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:35:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from suntan.eng.usf.edu (chtaylor@suntan.eng.usf.edu [131.247.14.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27684 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:35:33 -0400 Received: from localhost (chtaylor@localhost) by suntan.eng.usf.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07229 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:35:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Taylor-iii X-Sender: chtaylor@suntan To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Fuel Injection Design Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am new to the DIY_EFI list and some what new to fuel injection. And was wondering if someone tell me of some good books and literature to read on the design of fuel injection. Main areas I am looking for are how to get a fuel curve for my motorcycle. Friend and I are working on applying fuel injection to a dragbike I have and it seems the only draw back we are having is where to start with the fuel curve. Any good homebrew books out there?? I tried the link on the DIY_EFI web page for books and got a NOT FOUND. Any help appreciated. Chuck Taylor chtaylor@eng.usf.edu *******************************'84 Kawasaki 900 Ninja * University of South Florida * 7.21 @ 96.37 1/8th mile * Mechanical Engineering Dept * 11.37 @ 117.27 1/4 mile * (7 months and counting) *'80 Kawasaki Z1-R 1000 ******************************* Restoration project From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 09:41:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27796 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:41:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27791 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:41:38 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-7.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.76]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id JAA28284 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:40:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Boingers Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:41:47 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd782b$8ca9b160$4c198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Robert Humphris To: 'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 5:24 AM Subject: RE: Boingers It is quite simply the proper design for an >engine. Yea alright the design is flawed due to the problem with the >seals wearing, but in this day and age with ceramic technology there >must be a way to make this problem go away. I have always wanted a car engine that revs to 14,000 rpm with good efficiency. > Lets see rotor edge seals, corner seals, or waterseals. With all the money mazda has put into them, I still haven't heard of any cures. They are fragile, IMHO. If overheated their done. Great HP per weight, and way more power per displacement, but huge slow burning areas of the combustion chamber. I always thought of them as self consuming. With the way they wear, nothing is left, The rotor housing get eateen up, the case seperators, and then knock the gears loose on the inside of the rotor, when ya work em hard. Fast and light while they last, again IMHO. Bruce From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 10:11:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28255 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:11:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28250 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:11:30 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA14501 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:11:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:11:27 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805051411.AAA14501@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: High MPG X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu $1 (US) per gallon (US gallon I assume)... You should see what we have to pay for it in Oz... about 80 cents (Aus) per litre here in Tasmania. This equates to about $4.66 (US) per US gallon!!! In mainland Australia, it isn't as expensive, but you're still probably looking at more than $3.80 (US) per US Gallon!!! And some people wonder why I'm after a bit better fuel economy by trying to catalytically crack the fuel, and make it go further... Danny Barrett. (chopped) >with gasoline at $1 a gallon, its just not worth it. >Gary Derian (chopped) From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 10:17:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28433 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28428 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:09 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA05897; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:08 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAD00258 for ; Tue, 05 May 1998 10:15:42 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:15:42 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805051415.KAD00258@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980505092209.007aae30@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:22:09 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: High MPG In-Reply-To: <199805050339.NAA20886@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I agree about the ceramic engines, but aren't they a bit expensive??? Yes, but as the technology ages, the price comes down. Most things work this way. Just look at cell phones... they used to be $1500 back in 1985. Now they are a buck :) Seriously, ceramics and plastics are coming into play in a major way. I read in Popular Science, Mechanics, one of those two, an article about a carbon fiber/resin engine, with iron sleeves. Takes a good idea and lots of corporate money :) But ceramic coating can be done at home. A gentleman on this list runs a Ford Tempo engine (2.3L) with a 10:1 C/R ratio, with pump gas, using ceramic coated pistons, heads, valves, etc. I ordered the stuff and plan to do it myself. Summit and Jegs has it BTW, and the product is called Tech Line. I took this individuals recommendation and demoted my toaster oven from "toaster" to "ceramic coater". Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 10:17:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28414 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:06 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28409 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:04 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA05889; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:03 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAB00258 for ; Tue, 05 May 1998 10:15:38 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:15:38 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805051415.KAB00258@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980505091601.007aa100@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:16:01 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: RE: Boingers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I am amazed that someone who is obviously not stupid should bad mouth >the wankle rotary engine.. It is quite simply the proper design for an >>Okay Michael, short and sweet- my apologies for not including the wankel in >>my suggestive list of inefficient antiquated technology :) >> Whoa, whoa, whoa !!!! Looks like ASCII got me again!!!! The means I was kidding :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 10:17:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28423 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28419 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:06 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA05892; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:05 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAC00258 for ; Tue, 05 May 1998 10:15:40 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:15:40 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805051415.KAC00258@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980505091741.007aae10@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:17:41 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Electric engine swaps In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >We would then be doing exotic ELECTRIC motor swaps, so what? >I for one would enjoy fitting such to one of my project cars. I have a bookmark somewhere... there;s a company called "Kelmark???" that makes a decent electric motor that mates to a VW transaxle. If I find the link tonight I'll let you know. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 10:44:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29211 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:44:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.lig.bellsouth.net (mail.lig.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.50]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29205 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:44:06 -0400 Received: from zippy (host-209-214-178-25.chs.bellsouth.net [209.214.178.25]) by mail.lig.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA19619 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:43:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "M&D" <91coupe@bellsouth.net> To: Subject: Re: Boingers Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:50:20 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7835$205b5c20$19b2d6d1@zippy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On the IBM patent site I found a bunch of patents relating to new designs for the seals - such as roller bearings allowing the seals to move easier, thus be stiffer, and seal better even at high RPM. The latest operational thing we have is called 'Ianetti seals' after the manufacturer; they are ceramic seals about 1.5x the cost of steel, are lighter, stronger, and don't appreciably wear themselves or the rotor housings. Of course, they don't like much over 25 PSI of boost, either... Michael Harrington 91coupe@bellsouth.net and http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/downs/4038 91 RX-7 Coupe "Pearl" w/ some mods 88 RX-7 T2 "Beast" sitting in carport :( N3WJE Technician+ Ham -----Original Message----- From: Robert Humphris To: 'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 5:06 AM Subject: RE: Boingers >I am amazed that someone who is obviously not stupid should bad mouth >the wankle rotary engine.. It is quite simply the proper design for an >engine. Yea alright the design is flawed due to the problem with the >seals wearing, but in this day and age with ceramic technology there >must be a way to make this problem go away. I have always wanted a car >engine that revs to 14,000 rpm with good efficiency. > >But thats my problem > >Rob Humphris > >>---------- >>From: Frederic Breitwieser[SMTP:frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com] >>Sent: 05 May 1998 05:44 >>To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>Subject: Boingers >> >>>Anyway, just wanted to put a slant on things. >> >>Okay Michael, short and sweet- my apologies for not including the wankel in >>my suggestive list of inefficient antiquated technology :) >> >> >> >> >>Frederic Breitwieser >>Bridgeport, CT 06606 >> >>Homebrew Automotive Website: >>http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ >> >>1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >>1989 HMMWV >>2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car >> >>- >> > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 10:46:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29300 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:46:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29295 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:46:14 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yWj25-0001U2C; Tue, 5 May 98 10:49 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: MPG To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:49:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <199805050950.TAA11149@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> from "Danny Barrett" at May 5, 98 07:50:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Not like that... You're CREATING energy there (either that or using the > batteries up in half the time). > > Remember, P=EI > Power = Voltage times Current. > > If your Voltage goes up, your current will go down for the same power. If > you double the power, you halve the life of the battery. not when using a time slicer to control the speed > > If you have a voltage conversion driver, and the voltage out is twice the > voltage in, then the current out is HALF the current in - same power, not > double. Nice try though. Also, if you don't believe me, I don't mind, but > don't try to argue about it (just a warning). In my first and second years > in my engineering degree, I was taught enough about electricity to know > better than that. good for you I took nuclear physics for 2 years > > >this is easy > >install larger volatge conversion drivers and a more powerful motor > >reprogram the time slice divider and away you go > >double your power very easily we were talking about making it faster not more efficient and it still would not loose than much more power overall so range would not be massively effected electric motors do not loose much efficinecy when throttled down Clive From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 11:07:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29944 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:07:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29940 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:07:48 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yWjMy-0001UVC; Tue, 5 May 98 11:11 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Fuel Injection Design To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:11:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: from "Charles Taylor-iii" at May 5, 98 09:35:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I am new to the DIY_EFI list and some what new to fuel injection. And was > wondering if someone tell me of some good books and literature to read on > the design of fuel injection. Main areas I am looking for are how to get > a fuel curve for my motorcycle. Friend and I are working on applying fuel > injection to a dragbike I have and it seems the only draw back we are > having is where to start with the fuel curve. Any good homebrew books out > there?? I tried the link on the DIY_EFI web page for books and got a NOT > FOUND. Any help appreciated. you can do the calculations yourself if you have an estimated torque curve for the engine on a highly tuned bike VE should be in the 110% range or maybe 120% on a race bike max VE will be very near max torque the VE curve will look almost exactly like to torque curve less mechanical losses (if you can get a dyno curve for the frictional losses you are laughing) compute the amount of air you consume per revolution multiply the RPM x air comsumed at RPM x VE at RPM x frictional loss correction to get an air comsuption curve once you know the amount of air you require you can calculate a fuel curve for WOT at 14.7:1 ratio for stoic 12-13.5:1 for power, and 15:1 or more for cruise you want the curve to be rich at idle about 10% better than stoic, lean at cruise, and rich when power is required (IE when vacuum drops) you should be able to find the info to figure the rest out from there start too rich and tune it back as required Clive From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 11:15:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA30194 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:15:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from newmail.virgin.net (newmail.virgin.net [194.168.54.44]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA30189 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:15:00 -0400 Received: from virgin.net ([194.168.56.195]) by newmail.virgin.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 1-55555U125000L125000S0) with ESMTP id AAA4775 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:15:00 +0000 Message-ID: <354F2D18.A227FABE@virgin.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 16:15:36 +0100 From: Tony Cooper X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? References: <1317811646-26702797@uia.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Robert Harris wrote: > The Ionization Knock Detector looks for a specific event in the combustion > gasses - the sudden appearance of ionization products after ignition. Since > this mechanism is not heavily engine material, size, fuel, temp, ambient > noise dependent for determining its characteristics, the detection of the > event is straightforward without the need of highly sophisticated self > anally extracting make TI rich DSP's. Start with a clean signal and you > don't need the hi fangle BS to make the system work - a strange concept I > know but once upon a time was considered the way to do things. > > Properly done, ION can work on everything from a lawnmower to a Multi-staged > turbo intercooled alcohol fueled road rocket without any basic changes or > tuning. It simply must detect the knock related ionization event - which > incidentally will cause a low voltage dc conduction across the spark gap. > Simple. Non computerized, wazoo ized and eminently doable without anything > even approaching a DSP. What can I say - this man obviously understands the principles of ion CURRENT measurement perfectly well - Bob, why don't you head the development team as you are such an expert!!!! I would be interested in joining the ION team, as it is what I does anyways. Tony -- Sent By Tony Cooper. email: tony.cooper@virgin.net Allow at least 10 working minutes for reply. ;) From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 11:47:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA31156 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:47:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from uia.net (uia.net [157.22.213.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA31151 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:47:02 -0400 Received: from tyan-machine (157.22.213.74) by uia.net with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0.1); Tue, 5 May 1998 08:47:30 -0700 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: RE: Boingers Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:46:54 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980505091601.007aa100@xephic.dynip.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Message-ID: <1317764441-29542095@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu But we reserve the right to pillory you anyway > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > [mailto:owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu]On Behalf Of Frederic > Breitwieser > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 9:16 AM > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: RE: Boingers > Deleted Stuff > Whoa, whoa, whoa !!!! Looks like ASCII got me again!!!! The means > I was kidding :) > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 11:50:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA31254 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:50:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lsi.lsil.com (lsi.lsil.com [147.145.40.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA31249 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:50:58 -0400 Received: from mhbs.lsil.com ([147.145.29.36]) by lsi.lsil.com with ESMTP id IAA13053 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6 for ); Tue, 5 May 1998 08:50:57 -0700 Received: from [147.145.143.10] by mhbs.lsil.com; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:50:55 -0700 Received: from mm104.minn by mms10 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA02070; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:50:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:50:51 -0500 From: mdill@lsil.com (Mike Dillon) Message-Id: <199805051550.KAA02070@mms10> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I would look a little closer at the heat-pump idea the 110 % efficancy only means for every 100 watts in electical-mecanical energy put in you get 110 watts of heat out, not a big differance. Electric heaters are 100% efficant at turning electical energy to heat, but then so is a light bulb. I am not sure what temps you need in the "refinery" but heat pumps work real well for small delta T's ie. 0 to 30 degrees, but are less attractive at higher delta T's. Good luck, refine your proposal stick with a how this will help the envirorment theme, and start asking for grants, with luck you might get a career out of it. Mike D. > From diy_efi-owner@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Tue May 5 00:34 CDT 1998 > From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) > > Just so that the guesses can stop coming in (even though it has been > discovered what I am intending)... > > I intend to build an in car "oil refinery." This may sound like a heap of BS > to many, but others have researched the possibility, and found it might be > viable IF it can be controled somehow. > > The basic principal behind it is to catalytically crack the fuel molecules, > in the presence of hydrogen, and form methane. This reaction is an > ENDOthermic reaction - ie. it requires energy (in the form of heat) to be > put IN, and thereby, the products of the reaction are at a higher energy > state than the fuel that was put in. Thus, otherwise wasted heat energy is > stored CHEMICALLY, to be used within the engine. Because of this "recycling" > effect, less fuel should be required for the same power output, and hence, > greater efficiency. > > The main problem with methane as a fuel (from what I am told) is that it > burns with a lower temperature than gasoline (this means it is more > "explosive" in its reaction, but changes in ignition timing will cure this > problem). Since it burns with a lower temperature, it might not produce > exhaust gases hot enough to keep the catalytic cracking reaction going. This > is where the refrigerants come in. > > Everyone knows about heat pumps... They use a little bit of energy to > TRANSFER a large amount of energy from one place to another. This is how a > home heat pump can have an efficiency of say 110% - The energy it TRANSFERS > is FAR GREATER than the energy it uses. For those who can't grasp this - > consider a fuel pump on an engine. It uses a small amount of energy, but it > pumps fuel, which has a very large amount of energy stored in it > (chemically). The heat pump is just the same. Also, a heat pump can take > heat energy from a cold place, and put it into a warm place, making the cold > place colder, and the warm place warmer. This is how you can sit in your > cosy room at 30 deg C, when it is 0 deg C outside, simply by using a heat pump. > > How does the heat pump apply to the fuel system? Remember I said that the > exhaust gases of the methane powered engine may be too cold to keep the > reaction going? I intend to use a heat pump (using a little bit of energy) > to TRANSFER a very large amount of energy from the exhaust (making it yet > cooler), to the little oil refinery mounted on the engine (keeping it at the > desired temperature). Hence, I have stipulated the refrigerant to be able to > cope with temperatures of (at least) between 20 deg C, and 500 to 600 deg C. > In actual fact, it would be better if it were to work at a larger temp > range. This is also why I said that some kind of head cooling system would > help my little project, although it isn't my project, per-say. However, I > had thought of it before. If all of the wasted heat could be collected from > the oil, the coolant system, and the exhaust (bearing in mind that both the > coolant system, and the oil should be kept at their most efficient > temperatures), then the system should (not saying it will) be more efficient > still. In fact, it might be possible for such a system to replace the > radiator, and recirculate the energy, instead of throwing it away by > increasing the ambient air temperature. > > However, such a system would have a maximum efficiency, where the attempt to > recycle any more energy would result in the system using more extra energy > than it gains. I do not know where this point is, but I would like to find out. > > As for where EFI fits in, obviously, an EFI system can meter just the right > amount of fuel (and water that is thermally cracked, and electrostatically > separated into H(+) and O(2-) ions, then made into H2 and O2 inseparate > chambers) needed more accurately than any carburettor will ever be able to. > Also, it may be possible to have another EFI computer controling the heat > pump, so that the little oil refinery can stay at its most efficient > temperature. > > Any comments/ideas??? > > Danny Barrett. > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 12:30:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA32456 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:30:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA32452 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:30:32 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA27343 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:30:32 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:31:17 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <358b3a97.58347031@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <1317811646-26702797@uia.net> <354F2D18.A227FABE@virgin.net> In-Reply-To: <354F2D18.A227FABE@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id MAA32453 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 05 May 1998 16:15:36 +0100, Tony Cooper wrote: >Robert Harris wrote: > >> Properly done, ION can work on everything from a lawnmower to a Multi-staged >> turbo intercooled alcohol fueled road rocket without any basic changes or >> tuning. It simply must detect the knock related ionization event - which >> incidentally will cause a low voltage dc conduction across the spark gap. >> Simple. Non computerized, wazoo ized and eminently doable without anything >> even approaching a DSP. > >What can I say - this man obviously understands the principles of ion CURRENT >measurement perfectly well - Bob, why don't you head the development team as you >are such an expert!!!! Now, now; if we're gonna fight over the young lady, maybe we should wait until she's born and grows up some. B) But jealousy or sibling rivalry at this point I DO take as evidence of keen interest in the plasma-baby. Very touching. >I would be interested in joining the ION team, as it is what I does anyways. Consider yourself joined; there are no "entrance requirements". Just start sniffin and contributin. I'd sure like to hear more about "it is what I does anyways", privately if you don't wish to sound like yer braggin, especially if you're familiar at all with this technology. I know you, Robert, and most of the other guys from the list by name, but I don't exactly remember what everybody's "chops" are, so I can't remember what people do mostly. Anyway, there ain't gonna be any "select few" (not that you were suggesting that, Tony; just thot I'd say it outloud for clarity) other than what falls out from natural interest and involvement as we go along, so don't anybody think we're forming a soccer team with a limited number of players. I have a feeling the intricacy of the topic will bench all of us at one time or another. But with the EEs, AE's, ME's, Electrochem, and MasterMech guys on this list, together the Summation of Fractional Wits Law will almost certainly lead to "wit critical-mass". (Just hope it's a controlled reaction, rather than a melt-down B). So let's get ION'ized. Gar From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 14:11:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01118 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:11:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imes.com ([209.184.4.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01114 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:11:16 -0400 Received: from elvis by imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA13230; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:13:20 -0500 Message-ID: <354F0CFE.34F6@imes.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 12:58:38 +0000 From: steve ravet Organization: International Meta Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: High MPG References: <008001bd781d$218cc420$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gary Derian wrote: > Electric is not very efficient if you consider the total scheme. The > electric generators are no more efficient than the good old ICE (40%). Then > you add the power loss in transmission, converting to chemical energy for > the battery, then reconverting to electric, then finally getting mechanical > energy from the motor. Add this up and the electric car is only 5% > efficient. A GM EV1 with a gasoline engine would get 80+ mpg. Electric cars have transmission loss, but so do gas cars. You have to burn diesel fuel to ship all that fuel around. Here's my question: The GM EV web page (www.gmev.com) claims a full charge in 3 hours using a 220V (6.6kW) charger. That's 19.8 kilowatt hours of energy. They claim a maximum capacity of 16.2 KWh for the battery pack, so 19.8 includes charger inefficiencies. If electricity costs 10 cents per KWh, it costs just under $2 to charge the EV-1. They claim the range to be 50-90 miles, which puts the cost per mile between 2 and 4 cents. Just the gas for a gas car costs more than that, plus all the maintenance like tuneups, fluid changes, etc. The electric car is simplicity by comparison. --steve > > Gary Derian -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve@imes.com From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 14:14:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01182 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:14:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01177 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:14:07 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id OAA06112; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:14:07 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00253 for ; Tue, 05 May 1998 14:12:42 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:12:42 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805051812.OAA00253@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980505140415.007a77b0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:04:15 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: RE: Boingers In-Reply-To: <1317764441-29542095@uia.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19980505091601.007aa100@xephic.dynip.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >But we reserve the right to pillory you anyway That's fair. I think. :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 14:23:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01369 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:23:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01362 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:23:28 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-025.mcn.net [208.26.146.25]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20821 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:23:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354F55EC.1ACAD6BD@mcn.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 12:09:48 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Fuel Line Fittings Updated Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Here is a list of fuel line fittings, adapters, and some other handy parts for GM EFI conversions. This list is primarily for Saginaw (metric O ring type) fittings. This is updated to add part no's for Earl's fittings and Weatherhead fittings. fuel injection feed and return nut kit GM 1711798 thread sizes are 14mm X 1.5 and 16mm X 1.5 Connector, fuel feed, double female lines GM 15544805 connects two male 3/8" Saginaw ends Connector, fuel return, double female lines GM 15550219 connects two male 5/16" Saginaw ends Short sections of line, approx2", with metric/quick connect ends Pressure: GM#15694407 $10.55 list 15609225 short, straight $2.55 15609224 short, u shaped $3.25 15694408 $10.55 These fittings can easily be used with rubber line by using the quick connect side as a barb. Be sure to use quality clamps and hose rated for appropriate pressures. Stainless steel braided hose, feed and return 15567762 approx. 30"long $72 list This line is used on '88 and '89 pickups. Looks nice and it's flexible, but spendy. rubber hoses 22527471 fuel feed, 1 male X 1 female 3/8" ID 22528623 fuel return 1male X 1 male 5/16" ID 10114736 return hose female X female 5/16" ID 10114709 feed hose female X female 3/8" ID These are hoses which connect between the tank and the lines. There are many different versions available, and they are all model specific. O rings 22514722 fuel feed 22516256 fuel ret. Fuel Filters 25055052 or GF 481 (AC) standard efi filter 25055003 or GF 478 (AC) 1983 Camaro with Crossfire (5.0 "S" engine) barbed hose end on inlet and 3/8 inv. flare on outlet GF626 has same fittings as GF481, is stainless steel (not polished), and costs less! Fits 1995 Chevy pickup. ______________________________________________________________________ Motorvac Fittings MV0603400: fuel feed m16X1.5 to 3/8" inv. flare $16.50 MV0603304: fuel ret. metric14X1.5 to 5/16" inv. flare $15.04 Available through Snap On Dealer Motorvac Tech Support (800) 841-8810 (I will use these, and have ordered one of each) _________________________________________________ Accel Saginaw parts: JUMPER LINES: "The kit consists of three 12" long, 3/8" diameter steel tubes and one 12" long, 5/16" diameter steel tube with the Saginaw flare used in stock GM fuel injection systems. It allows direct connection to TPI fuel rails and a high pressure fuel filter." (one end has Saginaw fitting, other end is unfinished) Jumper Line Kit:74731 3/8" Jumper Line Only:74731-A 5/16" Jumper Line Only:74731-B HOSE BARB FITTING: 3/8 Saginaw/Hose Barb Fitting (2 ea):74720-A (for both sides of a high pressure fuel filter, e.g. AC GF481) FUEL LINE FITTINGS: "High quality aluminum fittings provide perfect fit to adapt GM fuel rails (Saginaw) or high pressure fuel filters with Saginaw flares to AN-type fittings." Fuel Filter Fitting Kit: 3/8 Saginaw to 6AN (2 ea):74721 TPI Fuel Rail Fitting Kit: 3/8 Saginaw to 6AN (1 ea), 5/16 Saginaw to AN (1 ea): 74730 HIGH FLOW FUEL FILTER & PUMP FITTINGS: "Anodized in a rich gold, these fittings allow the highest flowrate of any Saginaw fitting available. Complete with O-rings, these fittings now accept #8AN fuel line." High Flow Fuel Filter Fitting: 74743-H High Flow Fuel Pump Fitting: 74711-H Fuel Filter with 3/8 Saginaw provisions: 74720 (like GF481) _______________________________________________________________ Weatherhead Fittings 3/8" inverted flare to 14 X 1.5mm 1445 3/8" inverted flare to 16 X 1.5mm 1446 3/8" inverted flare to 18 X 1.5mm 1447 _______________________________________________________________ Earls (1-800-421-2712) part no. 991954 14mm X 1.5 (return line) 991955 16mm X 1.5 (pressure line) 991956 18mm X 1.5 (power steering line) These fittings adapt to a -6 AN line. _________________________________________________________________ Remember that part numbers and prices often change, that parts are sometimes discontinued or replaced by "similar" parts, and that any EFI conversion requires a certain amount of ingenuity and flexibility. Fuel feed lines in stock applications are typically 3/8"dia. and return lines are typically 5/16" dia. Some EFI conversions use Saginaw type line ends cut from stock lines and attached to standard steel line with *quality* compression fittings These fittings have their roots in hydraulic applications, and shops which make hydraulic hoses may be able to find Saginaw ends to make custom lines. Thanks to all who responded. If anyone has part numbers or info to add, please E-mail me and I will update this list when there is enough new info. Thanks. Shannen Durphey shannen@mcn.net From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 14:53:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01854 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:53:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [207.25.206.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01846 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:53:04 -0400 Received: from dilbert (pix-233.nordson.com [207.206.59.233]) by users.qual.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/CICnet/IAG) with SMTP id OAA20869 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <006701bd7856$8aca0d60$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> From: "Gary Derian" To: Subject: Re: High MPG Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:49:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Steve, when I said transmission losses, I meant electrical transmission from the power plant to your house. By the way, your cost calculations don't include the cost of the vehicle, who knows what the non-subsidized cost would be, or the cost of new batteries every year or two. Gary Derian From: steve ravet >Gary Derian wrote: > >> Electric is not very efficient if you consider the total scheme. The >> electric generators are no more efficient than the good old ICE (40%). Then >> you add the power loss in transmission, converting to chemical energy for >> the battery, then reconverting to electric, then finally getting mechanical >> energy from the motor. Add this up and the electric car is only 5% >> efficient. A GM EV1 with a gasoline engine would get 80+ mpg. > >Electric cars have transmission loss, but so do gas cars. You have to >burn diesel fuel to ship all that fuel around. > >Here's my question: The GM EV web page (www.gmev.com) claims a full >charge in 3 hours using a 220V (6.6kW) charger. That's 19.8 kilowatt >hours of energy. They claim a maximum capacity of 16.2 KWh for the >battery pack, so 19.8 includes charger inefficiencies. If electricity >costs 10 cents per KWh, it costs just under $2 to charge the EV-1. They >claim the range to be 50-90 miles, which puts the cost per mile between >2 and 4 cents. Just the gas for a gas car costs more than that, plus >all the maintenance like tuneups, fluid changes, etc. The electric car >is simplicity by comparison. > >--steve > >> >> Gary Derian From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 16:17:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03261 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:17:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imes.com ([209.184.4.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03257 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:17:47 -0400 Received: from elvis by imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA15226; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:19:51 -0500 Message-ID: <354F2AA8.2D14@imes.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:05:12 +0000 From: steve ravet Organization: International Meta Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: High MPG References: <006701bd7856$8aca0d60$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gary Derian wrote: > > Steve, when I said transmission losses, I meant electrical transmission from > the power plant to your house. By the way, your cost calculations don't That's what I meant too. Some electricity is lost between the power plant and your house, it's the cost of getting power there. Same for fuel. The truck that delivers fuel to the gas station burns fuel. It's the cost of getting it there. > include the cost of the vehicle, who knows what the non-subsidized cost > would be, or the cost of new batteries every year or two. True, I left out the cost of the batteries. It's built into the EV-1 lease, so who knows what it costs. The point I was trying to make is that in terms of buying gas versus buying electricity, the electric car appears to be cheaper, in spite of the energy conversions along the way. Battery technology is bad right now, but it won't stay that way for long. Never bet against technology! I'm not calling for the elimination of gas cars. But personally, for the daily commute, I'd prefer the electric car and it's lower maintenance. -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve@imes.com From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 16:53:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03665 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:53:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03661 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:53:51 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yWols-0001SmC; Tue, 5 May 98 16:57 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: High MPG To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:57:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <354F0CFE.34F6@imes.com> from "steve ravet" at May 5, 98 12:58:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Here's my question: The GM EV web page (www.gmev.com) claims a full > charge in 3 hours using a 220V (6.6kW) charger. That's 19.8 kilowatt > hours of energy. They claim a maximum capacity of 16.2 KWh for the > battery pack, so 19.8 includes charger inefficiencies. If electricity > costs 10 cents per KWh, it costs just under $2 to charge the EV-1. They > claim the range to be 50-90 miles, which puts the cost per mile between > 2 and 4 cents. Just the gas for a gas car costs more than that, plus > all the maintenance like tuneups, fluid changes, etc. The electric car > is simplicity by comparison. but the battery packs cost a lot of energy to make and the expense of replaceing them every 50k miles of so could be very prohibitive a batt pakc cna be in the 10K range = $ .20 a mile just for batteries and you still have drivetrain maint on an EV system too look at $ .30/mile as operating expenses + depreciation how does this compare to a small gas car? some of them are in the $ .10 range Clive From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 18:35:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04721 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:35:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from linet06.li.net (linet06.li.net [199.171.6.16]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04717 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:35:19 -0400 Received: from linet01 (jgn@linet01.li.net [199.171.6.11]) by linet06.li.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA09950 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:37:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 18:35:20 -0400 (EDT) From: John Napoli X-Sender: jgn@linet01 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: High MPG In-Reply-To: <354F2AA8.2D14@imes.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 5 May 1998, steve ravet wrote: > lease, so who knows what it costs. The point I was trying to make is > that in terms of buying gas versus buying electricity, the electric car > appears to be cheaper, in spite of the energy conversions along the > way. Battery technology is bad right now, but it won't stay that way > for long. Never bet against technology! I'm not calling for the > elimination of gas cars. But personally, for the daily commute, I'd > prefer the electric car and it's lower maintenance. > Unfortunately, electricity is not that cheap for all of us. We pay the highest rates in the nation. Electricity is so expensive here, that the operational cost (ie, gas and maintenance) of my 15KW backup generator is less per KWHr than the KWHr rate from my local utility. For this reason, electric cars are a bad idea here, even though a lot of the driving I do would suit today's EV offerings to a 'T'. John From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 18:37:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04755 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:37:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from horizon.hit.net (rah@horizon.hit.net [206.252.160.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04750 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:37:23 -0400 Received: (from rah@localhost) by horizon.hit.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19235 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:34:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin Message-Id: <199805052334.SAA19235@horizon.hit.net> Subject: Re: High MPG To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 18:34:02 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <354F0CFE.34F6@imes.com> from "steve ravet" at May 5, 98 12:58:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > Electric is not very efficient if you consider the total scheme. The > > electric generators are no more efficient than the good old ICE (40%). Then > > you add the power loss in transmission, converting to chemical energy for > > the battery, then reconverting to electric, then finally getting mechanical > > energy from the motor. Add this up and the electric car is only 5% > > efficient. A GM EV1 with a gasoline engine would get 80+ mpg. > > Electric cars have transmission loss, but so do gas cars. You have to > burn diesel fuel to ship all that fuel around. > > Here's my question: The GM EV web page (www.gmev.com) claims a full > charge in 3 hours using a 220V (6.6kW) charger. That's 19.8 kilowatt > hours of energy. They claim a maximum capacity of 16.2 KWh for the > battery pack, so 19.8 includes charger inefficiencies. If electricity > costs 10 cents per KWh, it costs just under $2 to charge the EV-1. They > claim the range to be 50-90 miles, which puts the cost per mile between > 2 and 4 cents. Just the gas for a gas car costs more than that, plus > all the maintenance like tuneups, fluid changes, etc. The electric car > is simplicity by comparison. > > --steve Gas only costs about $.70 before taxes. In the US at least if you drive on the roads with anything you have to pay taxes to use the road. So at .70 / gallon, and using a normal car with 30mpg, that is $2.10 of fuel for the same distance. The "recharge" takes 10 minutes. And that is ignoring that fact that the EV1's range decreases alot in hills, or in cold (heater) or hot (AC), more so than the gas engined vehicle. And with the performance the ev1, you have to compare the EV1 with somethi8ng that gets better than 30mpg. Also remember batteries have to be replaced fairly often (3-5 years tops) and they are not cheap, if they are using lead acid type the battery is going to be over 1k, and there is no way to really avoid it. If they aren't lead-acid they are going to be significatly more. Roger From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 18:39:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04791 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:39:06 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from anvil.gatech.edu (root@anvil.gatech.edu [130.207.165.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04787 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:39:03 -0400 Received: from resnet.gatech.edu.gatech.edu (r53h96.res.gatech.edu [128.61.53.96]) by anvil.gatech.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA16415 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980505183900.006905ac@pop.prism.gatech.edu> X-Sender: gt1040a@pop.prism.gatech.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 18:39:01 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: "Richard W. Cowan" Subject: Re: High MPG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >but the battery packs cost a lot of energy to make >and the expense of replaceing them every 50k miles of so could be very >prohibitive This is assuming the only alternative is current technology. I think we can agree that the EV1 with its monster 1000# battery back and only 70-90 miles per charge is a nice start, but it is not the answer. If you want to take into account the energy/cost to make the battery packs and the electric motor to raise the cost of operation of an electric, you have to compare that with the energy/cost to manufacture an ICE: Engine block, heads, valves, springs, rockers, pushrods, pistons, rods, cam (maybe solenoids in the future) exhaust system, larger coolant system, a starter, ignition system, larger water pump, fuel system, fuel pump, etc etc. With electrics you have: Big Induction motor which has far fewer parts, no exhaust system, no fuel system & compenents, no oil system, no ignition system, smaller coolant system. If electrics were being produced at the same levels as ICEs the cost would probably be far less. There are far fewer value-added manufacturing steps involved here and design tolerances are not as critical. Crate Electric motors will probably be way cheaper than ICEs also(for your future aftermarket swapping enjoyment :) ) The reason it probably won't for a while is that an acceptable battery (at least 200mi per charge, light weight, low volume, shorter charge time, etc) has not been invented yet. However, as someone said, don't bet against technology. Of course suspension, brakes, chassis/frame, bodywork, interiors, etc are still the same and don't factor into the comparison. Richard http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~vaps1rc From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 18:42:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04849 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:42:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04845 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:42:40 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp15-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.64]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26349 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:39:46 -0400 Message-ID: <354F9677.6E39@huron.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 18:45:11 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: High MPG References: <008001bd781d$218cc420$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> <354F0CFE.34F6@imes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu steve ravet wrote: > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > Electric is not very efficient if you consider the total scheme. The > > electric generators are no more efficient than the good old ICE (40%). Then > > you add the power loss in transmission, converting to chemical energy for > > the battery, then reconverting to electric, then finally getting mechanical > > energy from the motor. Add this up and the electric car is only 5% > > efficient. A GM EV1 with a gasoline engine would get 80+ mpg. > > Electric cars have transmission loss, but so do gas cars. You have to > burn diesel fuel to ship all that fuel around. > > Here's my question: The GM EV web page (www.gmev.com) claims a full > charge in 3 hours using a 220V (6.6kW) charger. That's 19.8 kilowatt > hours of energy. They claim a maximum capacity of 16.2 KWh for the > battery pack, so 19.8 includes charger inefficiencies. If electricity > costs 10 cents per KWh, it costs just under $2 to charge the EV-1. They > claim the range to be 50-90 miles, which puts the cost per mile between > 2 and 4 cents. Just the gas for a gas car costs more than that, plus > all the maintenance like tuneups, fluid changes, etc. The electric car > is simplicity by comparison. > > --steve > > > > > Gary Derian > > -- > Steve Ravet > International Meta Systems > http://www.imes.com > steve@imes.com You simplify it too much, and in so doing you overstate the cost per mile. That charger tapers the charge, I believe, so it does not charge full tilt all three hours. The actual power consumption is relatively less. I had a converted 75 Fiat coupe in the late 70s, running lead acid batteries, a converted aicraft generator for a motor, and voltage switching (24/48 volt) with startup resistors. Nothing fancy or high tech. At the time it took about $.28 to charge the batteries - good for 50 miles at 30mph, or 30 at 50. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 18:43:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04872 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:43:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR05 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.177]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04866 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:43:28 -0400 Received: from default - 153.34.110.92 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:43:05 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01bd7877$6053fc00$5c6e2299@default> From: "David" To: Subject: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:42:13 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The current Radio Shack sale flyer has two Digital Multimeters listed. The first is model 22-174ue for $ 69.99 It features are True RMS. Can be used to check temperature F or C. True RMS for accurate AC readings. Measures frequencies up to 2MHz, capacitance, transistor gain, even shown NPN/PNP polarity and E-B-C pinout on display. Autoranging. Includes temperature probe. The second model is $ 44.99 (after $ 5.00 coupon in flyer). Model 22-178ue. It features autoranging, continuous buzzer, 20 amp AC and DC ranges. Diode check. Both run on two AA batteries. I am not well versed on this stuff. I believe you need a digital multimeter to measure a lot of the EFI stuff. Your thoughts and suggestions would be muchly appreciated. David From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 18:51:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05007 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:51:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05003 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:51:19 -0400 Received: from main (alaint@ppp14.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.35]) by mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA18482; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 18:47:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Alain Toussaint X-Sender: alaint@main To: Robert Humphris cc: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Boingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu here's my 1/50 of a buck,the thing hampering the durability of the wankel engine is the oil,oil made for regular engine will not burn efficiently, 4 stroke engine oil will leave carbon deposit on apex seal,the solution Road & Track magazine did to their racing (don't know what class do they race but it's not the quarter mile variety) is to put 2 stroke engine oil in their motor,it's been a while since i read the report but i think they said it did an amelioration of the durability of the motor,i think there was also an article in Kitplanes (not sure),they reported having seen carbon deposit in engine from 10 000 milles on up (even on heavily pampered engine),the solution for these motor if they wanted to last is that they would rely on 2 stroke engine oil. any though on this ?? Alain Toussaint > I am amazed that someone who is obviously not stupid should bad mouth > the wankle rotary engine.. It is quite simply the proper design for an > engine. Yea alright the design is flawed due to the problem with the > seals wearing, but in this day and age with ceramic technology there > must be a way to make this problem go away. I have always wanted a car > engine that revs to 14,000 rpm with good efficiency. > > But thats my problem > > Rob Humphris > > >---------- > >From: Frederic Breitwieser[SMTP:frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com] > >Sent: 05 May 1998 05:44 > >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > >Subject: Boingers > > > >>Anyway, just wanted to put a slant on things. > > > >Okay Michael, short and sweet- my apologies for not including the wankel in > >my suggestive list of inefficient antiquated technology :) > > > > > > > > > >Frederic Breitwieser > >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > > >Homebrew Automotive Website: > >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > > > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > >1989 HMMWV > >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > > > >- > > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 18:59:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05260 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:59:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ns1.foothill.net (ns1.foothill.net [206.170.175.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05255 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:59:35 -0400 Received: from terryk (tahoe-d56.foothill.net [209.76.43.56]) by ns1.foothill.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA21905 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:59:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "TBK" To: Subject: Re: Fuel Line Fittings Updated Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:58:04 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd7879$42e93e80$382b4cd1@terryk.foothill.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Excellent list! Any chance you know the two fittings used in the GM power steering pumps? I need to connect a 1986 Ciera hose to a 1992 3800 SC pump. It will thread in the 92 pump, but I think they are different compression methods. Both pumps are the plastic reservoir type. But your list solved the fuel line issue. I will cut the plastic quick disconnects off, add the 14/16mm nuts and have then double flared again and use female to female hoses. I would just prefer to not have gas shooting on the exhaust manifold at 60PSI. Call me a wimp. TK -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 12:23 PM Subject: Fuel Line Fittings Updated >Here is a list of fuel line fittings, adapters, and some >other handy parts for GM EFI conversions. This list is >primarily for Saginaw (metric O ring type) fittings. This is >updated to add part no's for Earl's fittings and Weatherhead >fittings. > > >fuel injection feed and return nut kit GM 1711798 >thread sizes are 14mm X 1.5 and 16mm X 1.5 > >Connector, fuel feed, double female lines GM 15544805 >connects two male 3/8" Saginaw ends >Connector, fuel return, double female lines GM 15550219 >connects two male 5/16" Saginaw ends >Short sections of line, approx2", with metric/quick connect >ends >Pressure: GM#15694407 $10.55 list > 15609225 short, straight $2.55 > 15609224 short, u shaped $3.25 > 15694408 $10.55 > >These fittings can easily be used with rubber line by using >the quick connect side as a barb. Be sure to use quality >clamps and hose rated for appropriate pressures. > >Stainless steel braided hose, feed and return >15567762 approx. 30"long $72 list >This line is used on '88 and '89 pickups. Looks nice and >it's flexible, but spendy. > >rubber hoses >22527471 fuel feed, 1 male X 1 female 3/8" ID >22528623 fuel return 1male X 1 male 5/16" ID >10114736 return hose female X female 5/16" ID >10114709 feed hose female X female 3/8" ID >These are hoses which connect between the tank and the >lines. There are many different versions available, and >they are all model specific. > >O rings >22514722 fuel feed >22516256 fuel ret. > >Fuel Filters >25055052 or GF 481 (AC) standard efi filter >25055003 or GF 478 (AC) 1983 Camaro with Crossfire (5.0 "S" >engine) barbed hose end on inlet and 3/8 inv. flare on >outlet >GF626 has same fittings as GF481, is stainless steel (not >polished), and costs less! Fits 1995 Chevy pickup. >______________________________________________________________________ > >Motorvac Fittings > MV0603400: fuel feed m16X1.5 to 3/8" inv. flare $16.50 >MV0603304: fuel ret. metric14X1.5 to 5/16" inv. flare $15.04 > >Available through Snap On Dealer >Motorvac Tech Support (800) 841-8810 >(I will use these, and have ordered one of each) >_________________________________________________ >Accel Saginaw parts: > >JUMPER LINES: >"The kit consists of three 12" long, 3/8" diameter steel >tubes and one 12" >long, 5/16" diameter steel tube with the Saginaw flare used >in stock GM fuel >injection systems. It allows direct connection to TPI fuel >rails and a high >pressure fuel filter." (one end has Saginaw fitting, other >end is unfinished) > >Jumper Line Kit:74731 >3/8" Jumper Line Only:74731-A >5/16" Jumper Line Only:74731-B > > >HOSE BARB FITTING: >3/8 Saginaw/Hose Barb Fitting (2 ea):74720-A >(for both sides of a high pressure fuel filter, e.g. AC >GF481) > > >FUEL LINE FITTINGS: >"High quality aluminum fittings provide perfect fit to adapt >GM fuel rails >(Saginaw) or high pressure fuel filters with Saginaw flares >to AN-type >fittings." > >Fuel Filter Fitting Kit: 3/8 Saginaw to 6AN (2 ea):74721 >TPI Fuel Rail Fitting Kit: 3/8 Saginaw to 6AN (1 ea), 5/16 >Saginaw to AN (1 >ea): 74730 > > >HIGH FLOW FUEL FILTER & PUMP FITTINGS: >"Anodized in a rich gold, these fittings allow the highest >flowrate of any >Saginaw fitting available. Complete with O-rings, these >fittings now accept >#8AN fuel line." > >High Flow Fuel Filter Fitting: 74743-H >High Flow Fuel Pump Fitting: 74711-H >Fuel Filter with 3/8 Saginaw provisions: 74720 (like GF481) >_______________________________________________________________ > >Weatherhead Fittings > >3/8" inverted flare to 14 X 1.5mm 1445 >3/8" inverted flare to 16 X 1.5mm 1446 >3/8" inverted flare to 18 X 1.5mm 1447 > >_______________________________________________________________ >Earls (1-800-421-2712) > >part no. > 991954 14mm X 1.5 (return line) > 991955 16mm X 1.5 (pressure line) > 991956 18mm X 1.5 (power steering line) > > >These fittings adapt to a -6 AN line. >_________________________________________________________________ > >Remember that part numbers and prices often change, that >parts are sometimes discontinued or replaced by "similar" >parts, and that any EFI conversion requires a certain amount >of ingenuity and flexibility. > >Fuel feed lines in stock applications are typically 3/8"dia. >and return lines are typically 5/16" dia. >Some EFI conversions use Saginaw type line ends cut from >stock lines and attached to standard steel line with >*quality* compression fittings > >These fittings have their roots in hydraulic applications, >and shops which make hydraulic hoses may be able to find >Saginaw ends to make custom lines. > >Thanks to all who responded. If anyone has part numbers or >info to add, please E-mail me and I will update this list >when there is enough new info. Thanks. > >Shannen Durphey >shannen@mcn.net > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 19:10:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05638 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:10:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05634 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:10:23 -0400 Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id TAA06405; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:10:24 -0400 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA19593; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:10:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nbw-nj10-28.ix.netcom.com(207.94.119.92) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma019574; Tue May 5 18:09:56 1998 Message-ID: <354F9CA8.597A@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:11:36 -0400 From: Ed X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu, dfi@kens.com Subject: What is the latest version of Calmap software? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks, Ed From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 19:52:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06537 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:52:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lnagate.foxboro.com.au (lnagate.foxboro.com.au [202.12.113.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06533 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:52:20 -0400 Received: (qmail 17277 invoked from network); 5 May 1998 23:52:10 -0000 Received: from foxlnqtc.qtc.foxboro.com.au (HELO foxboro.com.au) (202.12.112.10) by gatekeeper.foxboro.com.au with SMTP; 5 May 1998 23:52:10 -0000 Received: from wayneb-nt (fwserver [202.12.112.56]) by foxboro.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA23943 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:52:09 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980506095212.0096eeb0@qtc-mail> X-Sender: wayneb@qtc-mail X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:52:12 +1000 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Wayne Blair Subject: Promedit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu For those of you trying to make use of Promedit. gnuplot_exe.zip has been placed into ftp incoming put gnuplot.exe in the same directory as promedit and the [G] - graphic view of table option will work. wayne From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 20:05:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06877 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:05:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06873 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:05:57 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-19.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.88]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id UAA09537 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:05:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:06:24 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7882$cef9c940$58198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: David To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 7:43 PM Subject: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted >The current Radio Shack sale flyer has two Digital Multimeters listed. > >The first is model 22-174ue for $ 69.99 > Measures frequencies up to 2MHz, capacitance, >transistor gain, even shown NPN/PNP polarity and E-B-C pinout on display. >Autoranging. Includes temperature probe. > >David > Frequency is nice to have when ya do need it, IMHO, for $20 worth it. Bruce From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 20:30:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA07261 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:30:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA07257 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:30:33 -0400 Received: from internet01.tmpprv.allied.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id UAA06478; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:30:35 -0400 Received: by tmpil001.tmp.allied.com id AA00749 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu); Tue, 5 May 1998 17:30:34 -0700 Received: by tmpil001.tmp.allied.com (Internal Mail Agent-1); Tue, 5 May 1998 17:30:34 -0700 Message-Id: From: "Watson, Bill (Tempe)" To: "dfi@kens.com" , "DIY_EFI@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" , Ed Subject: RE: DFI: What is the latest version of Calmap software? Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:29:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Encoding: 6 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >>What is the latest version of Calmap software? I believe that would be 6.32. bill From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 20:35:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA07318 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:35:30 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com (mail.clarityconnect.com [206.64.143.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07312 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:35:26 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (206.114.169.90) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Tue, 5 May 1998 20:37:18 -0400 Message-ID: <354FDA9E.4367@clarityconnect.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:35:58 -0700 From: Scot Sealander X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: High MPG References: <3.0.32.19980505183900.006905ac@pop.prism.gatech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Richard W. Cowan wrote: > > >but the battery packs cost a lot of energy to make > >and the expense of replaceing them every 50k miles of so could be very > >prohibitive > > This is assuming the only alternative is current technology. I think > we can agree that I think we can agree that the electric car stuff has gone on long enough. If you want to discuss this, please take it private.... Let's get back to EFI. This is an EFI list..... Thanks, Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 20:46:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA07526 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:46:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07521 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:46:20 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp42.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.172]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA29662 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:45:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <354FB08E.3E1648CE@mwt.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:36:31 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The trick is the solvent you use . Please if you use this product use rubber gloves goggles and avery well ventilated area this stuff is nothing to play with makes battery acid look weak. Please read and follow all directions that comes with these chemicals . Enough for the warnings now for the good stuff. A company called Dynaloy Inc. makes a line of desolvers but the main three to use is: 1) Decap or Dynasolve 100 (Decap said it needs to be above 65 F follow the directions) for removal of any cured epoxy.. 2)Dynasolve 711 for cured silicones , urethanes and anhydride epoxies . 3)Uresolve plus SG for cured silicones, urethanes,anhydride epoxies (semiconductor grade) The directions that come with it explain how to apply and use. Start with junk yard parts first. I have removed epoxy and repaired several units using this stuff. They have a catalog just call them up . Dynaloy Inc. 7 Great Meadow lane Hanover N.J. 07936 Phone 201-887-9270 Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > a lot of epoxys trun into a gooey jellified mess if exposed to > high levels of UV light > > Clive > > > > >I have access to a lab materials to remove most any epoxy from > > >electronic parts. But can't promise if the unit will work but they > work > > >in 99% of the time.Contact me off line if you want this done. > > > > > >Steve > > > > As I mentioned before, I hope I don't have to resort to this, but I > will > > look for another unit to maybe sacrifice. How bout you sharing the > > methods and materials used? > > > > I hope this is not another secret method. Sigh. > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 20:52:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA07658 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:52:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from webserver (brpt01-sh8-port203.snet.net [204.60.24.203]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07651 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:52:09 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA00275; Tue, 05 May 1998 20:50:40 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:50:40 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805060050.UAA00275@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980505201643.007a83a0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:16:43 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted In-Reply-To: <000d01bd7877$6053fc00$5c6e2299@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I am not well versed on this stuff. I believe you need a digital multimeter >to measure a lot of the EFI stuff. Hello David, I have the desktop version of the first meter you mentioned... and have used the true RMS setting a few times... and found the overall meter to be of "decent" quality. I also have a "Fluke" meter that was at least double the price, which can be dropped, stepped on, and is definately more durable. Both meters you mentioned from Radio Shack are accurate, and decent meters. But, drop it a few times, it its time to get the glue out :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 20:55:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA07752 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:55:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA07748 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:55:04 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yWsXK-00015MC; Tue, 5 May 98 20:58 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:58:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <000d01bd7877$6053fc00$5c6e2299@default> from "David" at May 5, 98 05:42:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > It features are True RMS. Can be used to check temperature F or C. True > RMS for accurate AC readings. Measures frequencies up to 2MHz, capacitance, > transistor gain, even shown NPN/PNP polarity and E-B-C pinout on display. > Autoranging. Includes temperature probe. > > The second model is $ 44.99 (after $ 5.00 coupon in flyer). Model 22-178ue. > > It features autoranging, continuous buzzer, 20 amp AC and DC ranges. Diode > check. if you can afford it get the cap checker it is a very useful feature RMS come in handy sometimes too Clive From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 21:15:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08162 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:15:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08157 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:15:17 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp42.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.172]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA03420 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:15:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <354FB790.EEE9A980@mwt.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:06:24 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <000d01bd7877$6053fc00$5c6e2299@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If you buy radio shack meter buy the extended warranty I bought the data logging one that hooks to the pc and it rides in a race car. meter $99.00 3 yr. $9.99 David wrote: > The current Radio Shack sale flyer has two Digital Multimeters listed. > > The first is model 22-174ue for $ 69.99 > > It features are True RMS. Can be used to check temperature F or C. > True > RMS for accurate AC readings. Measures frequencies up to 2MHz, > capacitance, > transistor gain, even shown NPN/PNP polarity and E-B-C pinout on > display. > Autoranging. Includes temperature probe. > > The second model is $ 44.99 (after $ 5.00 coupon in flyer). Model > 22-178ue. > > It features autoranging, continuous buzzer, 20 amp AC and DC ranges. > Diode > check. > > Both run on two AA batteries. > > I am not well versed on this stuff. I believe you need a digital > multimeter > to measure a lot of the EFI stuff. > > Your thoughts and suggestions would be muchly appreciated. > > David From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 21:31:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08533 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:31:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08527 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:31:13 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id V^Q09324; Tue, 05 May 1998 21:14:42 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:56:46 -0400 Subject: Re: electric cars - costs Message-ID: <19980505.211359.10790.4.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <008c01bd77f1$5349a180$cd18b1cf@avonil.net.avonil.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-4,7-8,12-16,18-31 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The only part of the equation you're missing is the efficiency. The efficiency of electric motors tend to run in the 90s (except for those small household models). The motor in the advanced vehicle at LTU runs at 90%, and I consider it to be somewhat low. Also, the vehicles that they choose to run electrically use considerablly less than 20KW when cruising. I think that 20KW would maintain a good speed in my full-sized Jeep. By the way, We (my wife and I) saw an EV1 in the parking lot at Oakland mall a couple months ago. It didn't look roomy. It was, in fact, quite the econobox. Well... "box" isn't quite the word. It had good aerodynamics. Ray Drouillard On Tue, 5 May 1998 01:44:56 -0500 "Dave Balfour" writes: >well if it takes 28 hp to accellerate and run down the road that >means that it takes 20 kw of power say you drive for an hour each day >that is 20kw hours. assuming 40% effiency that means that it takes 50 >kwh of energy from the grid. that is about 7dollars around here. now >once you figure in the tax that needs to be imposed to offset the tax >loss for not having the gas tax to pay for roads etc. that would add >another dollar. so it is 8 dollars. If there are a lot of people >using electricity the price will go up so add another buck and we are >up to 9 dollars That doesnt compare well to the 2 or 3 gallons of >gas. Add in the price of new batteries every 2-3 years ouch. At some >point when gas becomes 3-4 dollars per gallon then it begins to make >sense but not until. >dave balfour _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 21:31:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08543 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:31:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08539 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:31:22 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id V^R09324; Tue, 05 May 1998 21:14:42 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:13:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Boingers Message-ID: <19980505.211359.10790.5.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,11-12,14-55 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu He didn't compare that goofey cycloid-operated engine with the more standard piston engine. He was lumping it with all of the other internal combustion engines as old technology. We can argue all day about the relative merits of the two technologies, but the Wankyl doesn't seem to have enough to offer to entice more than one car company to put any money into it. I don't recall seeing any really impressive performance or mileage figures for the Mazda RX7. Yah, it's a neat concept. There are other ways of reducing the loss due to forcing a few ounces of metal bounce back and forth. You could hold the crank still and rotate the cylinders. I believe the British made an engine that did that. On Tue, 5 May 1998 09:43:11 +0100 Robert Humphris writes: >I am amazed that someone who is obviously not stupid should bad mouth >the wankle rotary engine.. It is quite simply the proper design for an >engine. Yea alright the design is flawed due to the problem with the >seals wearing, but in this day and age with ceramic technology there >must be a way to make this problem go away. I have always wanted a >car >engine that revs to 14,000 rpm with good efficiency. > >But thats my problem > >Rob Humphris > >>---------- >>From: Frederic >Breitwieser[SMTP:frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com] >>Sent: 05 May 1998 05:44 >>To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu >>Subject: Boingers >> >>>Anyway, just wanted to put a slant on things. >> >>Okay Michael, short and sweet- my apologies for not including the >wankel in >>my suggestive list of inefficient antiquated technology :) >> >> >> >> >>Frederic Breitwieser >>Bridgeport, CT 06606 >> >>Homebrew Automotive Website: >>http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ >> >>1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >>1989 HMMWV >>2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car >> >>- >> > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 21:31:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08537 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:31:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08530 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:31:14 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id V^O09324; Tue, 05 May 1998 21:14:41 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:56:22 -0400 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V3 #193 Message-ID: <19980505.211359.10790.2.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-8,12-13,17-22,27-28,34-36 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 4 May 1998 22:44:25 -0600 Jim Velasquez writes: >Hey, folks, who says that future automobiles with INTERNAL combustion >engines can't make use of electric drivetrains and FUEL CELLS? >Supposedly said are in early development, and if some design challenges >are solved, we could be looking at a HIGHLY efficient powerplant that >could still burn gasoline (such a fuel cell DOES exist!). They output >electricity, heat, and some combustion byproducts... The fuel cell I saw at the Detroit North American Auto Show used catylists to crack the fuel and extract the hydrogen. The carbon was basically tossed out. They claimed that even with the wasted carbon, the system as a whole is more efficient than an internal combustion engine. You can't use fuels containing carbon in a fuel cell because the resultant CO2 would neutralize the electrolyte. Most fuel cells I have seen use NaOH (sodium hydroxide) as an electrolyte. I wonder if anyone has tried using an acidic electrolyte. > >We would then be doing exotic ELECTRIC motor swaps, so what? >I for one would enjoy fitting such to one of my project cars. I would put a motor at each wheel. That would give me 4WD, and eliminate the traction problems of open differentials. I would have the advantage of lockers without any of the disadvantages. The control system could detect and stop spin, and the appropriate amount of torque could be sent to each wheel. For you performance car fans, the computer could use the steering wheel position, acceleration sensors, etc. to determine how much torque to put to each wheel for ideal traction when cornering. Each wheel could be kept near its adhesion limits. The actual force vector on the contact patch would be at some angle based on th eamount of torque applied and the centrepital acceleration. Ray Drouillard _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 21:32:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08556 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:32:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08552 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:32:23 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id V^N09324; Tue, 05 May 1998 21:14:41 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:56:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Refrigerants, Wide range EGO and other thoughts. Message-ID: <19980505.211359.10790.1.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <01BD782D.E930E8C0.dzorde@soanar.com.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,4-6,8,10,12,14-89 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Would you need a gallon? Anyhow, they have been using ammonia cycle coolers in houses and motor homes for a long time. Most of the house units are gone (replaced by freon), but there are still a few travelling the roads or stuck in cabins. On Tue, 5 May 1998 13:58:40 +0800 Dan Zorde writes: >Just place a Hazchem sticker on your car, and hope you don't have an accident. > I'm sure the EPA would have a few things to say after a gallon or so of >ammonium have spilt all over the road and knocked out any nearby witnesses. > Would look spectacular but. > >Dan dzorde@soanar.com.au > >-----Original Message----- >From: steve ravet [SMTP:steve@sun4c409.imes.com] >Sent: Monday, 04 May, 1998 9:24 PM >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: Refrigerants, Wide range EGO and other thoughts. > >Thor Johnson wrote: >> >> > Refrigerants >> > >> > Sounds like someone is trying to adapt the ammonia absorption >> cycle >> > refrigeration system to use as an intercooler. What is >> interesting is that >> > although this cycle is less "efficient" at cooling than a >> compressed gas >> > cycle, it gets it's pumping energy from heat - in the case of >> a propane RV >> > refrigerator from a small propane flame, or in this case from >> the waste heat >> > of the exhaust. The problem is probably the exhaust >> temperatures raise the >> > ammonia/water solution past the efficient working range and >> the gentleman is >> > looking for another absorption cycle fluid that will work in >> this range. >> >> You have any good sources of info on the ammonia cycle? I'm a >> nuts&bolts guy who would like to build one for the heck of it.... >> (An EE that likes to play with the ME's toys ;). > >Get on Deja News, and do a search on ammonia refrigerators. You'll >come >up with a lot of posts in rec.boating of all places, including one >that >explains ammonia fridges in detail. The author's name is Rod McInnis. >A mixture of water and ammonia is heated in a column. Because of >different boiling points, one end of the column is mostly ammonia, the >other end is mostly water. The two are separated, and pumped into the >fridge. When water and ammonia mix, the temperature of the mix goes >way >down. It's a physical process, not a chemical one, that I cannot >remember the name of right now. The mixture never changes pressure, >so >there is no compresor. The only energy input is a flame or electric >heat to boil the mixture. In an RV, there isn't even a pump, the >system >is cleverly designed so that the gravity causes the mixture to >circulate. That won't work in a car with lateral G forces, but >there's >no reason why you couldn't add a small pump to circulate the mixture. >It's been mentioned before here, it seems like it would be a good way >to >use exhaust heat to cool the incoming mixture. The only thing is that >the ammonia mixture is very stong (poisonous), much stronger than >cleaning products. > >--steve > >> >> TIA, >> -Thor Johnson >> thormj@iname.com > >-- >Steve Ravet >International Meta Systems >http://www.imes.com >steve@imes.com > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 21:33:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08654 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:33:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08616 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:33:33 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id V^M09324; Tue, 05 May 1998 21:14:41 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:55:51 -0400 Subject: Re: High MPG Message-ID: <19980505.211359.10790.0.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <009d01bd781e$da61b3b0$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-8,13-16,18-22,24,26-30,32,34,36-116 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Funny you should mention that. I just went to the open-house for Lawrence Technological University (LTU) and they were displaying advanced hybrid vehicle. They were displaying the first one, which was powered by a small (Geo, I think) engine and an electric motor. Their second version uses a Volkswagon Diesel engine. It has better range than most automobiles (700+ miles, if I'm not mistaken), the ability to run from either source or a combination of both, and a computer controlled transmission (manual shifted by a computer). For short trips, you don't even need to start the engine. In the city, you can run off the electric motor and start the engine when the batteries start to get low. If you have the engine running, you have the power of both the engine and the electric motor at your disposal. I forgot what the 0-60 time is, but it isn't too shabby. Oops... I almost forgot. It has regenerative braking. Now, if they want to get fancy, they can use the waste heat from the exhaust to run a stirling or steam engine that is turning a generater. Ray Drouillard, BSEE (from LTU) On Tue, 5 May 1998 08:10:24 -0400 "Gary Derian" writes: >The thermodynamics of Sterling, Wankle, turbine are all governed by the same >laws. Low temperature compression, high temperature expansion. This is >what drives efficiency. These alternatives all have their place in the >world but none of them offer an increase in efficiency. > >In my opinion, the best currently available technology is a hybrid vehicle: >electric drive, small battery for acceleration, small diesel to generate the >average power needed and regenerative braking. Toyota even builds one for >sale, but with gasoline at $1 a gallon, its just not worth it. >Gary Derian > >From: Raymond C Drouillard > >>On Mon, 04 May 1998 14:57:45 -0700 Frederic Breitwieser >> writes: >>>>Ceramic parts which operate without cooling and greater expansion >>ratios can >>>>reduce this energy wastage. None of which has anything to do with >>pushrods. >>> >>>Hello Gary, >>> >>>I didn't mean to imply that the pushrods are the culprit, I was >merely >>>commenting that the 100 year old design has outlived its >practicality, >>and >>>that new engineering should take place. >>> >>> >>>Frederic Breitwieser >>>Bridgeport, CT 06606 >>> >>>Homebrew Automotive Website: >>>http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ >>> >>>1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >>>1989 HMMWV >>>2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car >> >>I have seen several ideas tried, but none of them seemed to make the >big >>time. The otto-cycle engine has also had a hundred years of of >>refinement. The Wankyl, Stirling, and turbine engine simply don't >have >>all those thousands of hours of research and refinement behind them. >The >>auto companies could make a go of it with the other designs, but the >cost >>of the research would force them to charge a lot for the cars. So >far, >>nobody is willing to take that big of a risk. We'll have to see >>something that is clearly superior before the auto manufactures get >the >>courage to put the research necessary into it. >> >>We could, no doubt, get a Stirling engine to run well enough to power >a >>car. The first few would have enough problems to make the owners >wish >>for a good 'ol gasoline burner that "never gave me any trouble". >> >>Maybe the next major change in engine technology will be a steam >turbine >>powered by cold fusion. Just put some coils or magnets around the >edge >>of the turbine and draw the power off electromagnetically. Make the >>turbine and housing out of ceramic, use magnetic bearings, and just >keep >>it running all the time to keep the temperature up to operating >>temperature. >> >>Anyhow, I fear that I have strayed off subject a tad. It'll be >>interesting to see how many people swear that the whole cold fusion >thing >>is a hoax, how many believe that it works and has been supressed by >the >>oil companys, and how many people (such as myself) think that there >>simply hasn't been enough clean research to draw a firm conclusion >one >>way or the other ("I keep telling Orville and Wilbur that powered >flight >>simply can't work!") >> >>Ray Drouillard > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 21:50:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08885 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:50:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08881 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:50:43 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (pstn16-as1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.175]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01728 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:47:52 -0400 Message-ID: <354FC295.1261@huron.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 21:53:25 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Boingers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Alain Toussaint wrote: > > here's my 1/50 of a buck,the thing hampering the durability of the wankel > engine is the oil,oil made for regular engine will not burn efficiently, > 4 stroke engine oil will leave carbon deposit on apex seal,the solution > Road & Track magazine did to their racing (don't know what class do they > race but it's not the quarter mile variety) is to put 2 stroke engine oil > in their motor,it's been a while since i read the report but i think they > said it did an amelioration of the durability of the motor,i think there > was also an article in Kitplanes (not sure),they reported having seen > carbon deposit in engine from 10 000 milles on up (even on heavily > pampered engine),the solution for these motor if they wanted to last is > that they would rely on 2 stroke engine oil. > > any though on this ?? > > Alain Toussaint > > > I am amazed that someone who is obviously not stupid should bad mouth > > the wankle rotary engine.. It is quite simply the proper design for an > > engine. Yea alright the design is flawed due to the problem with the > > seals wearing, but in this day and age with ceramic technology there > > must be a way to make this problem go away. I have always wanted a car > > engine that revs to 14,000 rpm with good efficiency. > > > > But thats my problem > > > > Rob Humphris > > > > >---------- > > >From: Frederic Breitwieser[SMTP:frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com] > > >Sent: 05 May 1998 05:44 > > >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > >Subject: Boingers > > > > > >>Anyway, just wanted to put a slant on things. > > > > > >Okay Michael, short and sweet- my apologies for not including the wankel in > > >my suggestive list of inefficient antiquated technology :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Frederic Breitwieser > > >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > > > > >Homebrew Automotive Website: > > >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > > > > > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > > >1989 HMMWV > > >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > > > > > >- > > > > > > > I know a lot of endurance racers run 100:1 2 stroke gas/oil mixture in their Mazdas for this very reason. The engines smoke a bit, but do not wear out. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 21:56:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08926 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:56:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08922 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:56:23 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (pstn16-as1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.175]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02016 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:53:33 -0400 Message-ID: <354FC3EA.66CA@huron.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 21:59:06 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted References: <000d01bd7877$6053fc00$5c6e2299@default> <354FB790.EEE9A980@mwt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Steven Gorkowski wrote: > > If you buy radio shack meter buy the extended warranty I bought the data > logging one that hooks to the pc and it rides in a race car. > meter $99.00 > 3 yr. $9.99 > David wrote: > > > The current Radio Shack sale flyer has two Digital Multimeters listed. > > > > The first is model 22-174ue for $ 69.99 > > > > It features are True RMS. Can be used to check temperature F or C. > > True > > RMS for accurate AC readings. Measures frequencies up to 2MHz, > > capacitance, > > transistor gain, even shown NPN/PNP polarity and E-B-C pinout on > > display. > > Autoranging. Includes temperature probe. > > > > The second model is $ 44.99 (after $ 5.00 coupon in flyer). Model > > 22-178ue. > > > > It features autoranging, continuous buzzer, 20 amp AC and DC ranges. > > Diode > > check. > > > > Both run on two AA batteries. > > > > I am not well versed on this stuff. I believe you need a digital > > multimeter > > to measure a lot of the EFI stuff. > > > > Your thoughts and suggestions would be muchly appreciated. > > > > David Forget the extended warranty - if it is going to fail it will likely fail within warranty. Use the money you save on this warranty, double it, and buy another meter. The warranties are a rip-off. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 22:01:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09082 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:01:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from snowcrest.net (mtshasta.snowcrest.net [207.201.33.195]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09077 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:01:16 -0400 Received: from default (ttyD3d.redding.snowcrest.net [209.148.36.94]) by snowcrest.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20529 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:01:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Derek Jewett" To: "Do-it-Yourself Fuel Injection" Subject: Fw: EPROMr 2.0 PCB artwork available Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:08:54 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd7893$eb99e920$5e2494d1@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Lewin A.R.W. Edwards To: jewett@sunset.net ; calphool@dwx.com Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 2:11 PM Subject: EPROMr 2.0 PCB artwork available Preliminary PCB artwork for the V2.0 EPROMr (parallel version) is available. PLEASE NOTE that this is NOT a commercial release; it's merely an experimental .. er .. experiment with a PCB CAD package. If you want to experiment with this design (I'd really like some feedback), please contact me and I can email you the PostScript files (top layer, bottom layer, drill guide and overlay). If you don't have a PostScript printer, I can send a PCL file suitable for most HP-compatible lasers. Oh yes... The board is rather squashed (about 2" wide x 4" long) and there are many, many vias on it (206 holes, all up). It's double-sided, and through-hole-plate construction is recommended. Like I said, it's an experiment. Please feel free to pass this message on to anyone you feel may be interested. === From the Apple PowerBook 1400 of ================= Lewin A.R.W. Edwards [Team OS/2] Programmer + Hardware Eng Certified Apple Engineer Need a programmer? Embedded systems - DOS - Win16 - Win32 - MacOS === (C) Copyright 1998 by Lewin A.R.W. Edwards ======= From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 22:32:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09842 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:32:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from web02.globecomm.net (web02.nyc.globecomm.net [207.51.48.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09832 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:32:45 -0400 From: grantg@iname.com Received: (from root@localhost) by web02.globecomm.net (8.8.8/8.8.0) id WAA23576; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 22:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805060232.WAA23576@web02.globecomm.net> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Anything Fluke tends to be good...far more robust than most on the market...they don't mind mistakes re range settings except obviously current, they are more expensive than most, but you only buy one and it lasts. Have had a Fluke 27 for some years and never a problem. used almost daily....good test leads too. Make sure what ever you get is autoranging and has range hold capability too, cap test and thermo. sometimes useful, but better to spend money on quality Grant ------------------------------------------------------ Get free personalized email at http://four11.iname.com From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 22:52:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10219 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:52:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10202 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:51:44 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WfU09324; Tue, 05 May 1998 22:19:00 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:28:33 -0400 Subject: Re: High MPG Message-ID: <19980505.221826.10790.6.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <199805051411.AAA14501@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,5,7,9,11,13,15-26 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If I lived in an area where gas prices are that high, I would be a lot more agressive in my plans for running my Full-Sized Jeep on propane or methane. Right now, there isn't enough of a price advantage. On Wed, 6 May 1998 00:11:27 +1000 (EST) danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) writes: >$1 (US) per gallon (US gallon I assume)... You should see what we have to >pay for it in Oz... about 80 cents (Aus) per litre here in Tasmania. This >equates to about $4.66 (US) per US gallon!!! In mainland Australia, it isn't >as expensive, but you're still probably looking at more than $3.80 (US) per >US Gallon!!! And some people wonder why I'm after a bit better fuel economy >by trying to catalytically crack the fuel, and make it go further... > >Danny Barrett. > > >(chopped) >>with gasoline at $1 a gallon, its just not worth it. >>Gary Derian >(chopped) > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 22:52:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10220 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:52:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from admin.inetport.com (inetport.com [206.64.12.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10214 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:52:12 -0400 Received: from default (as02-4.inetport.com [206.64.12.132]) by admin.inetport.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22602 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:52:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805060252.VAA22602@admin.inetport.com> From: "Zack" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:56:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: High MPG Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3.0.32.19980505183900.006905ac@pop.prism.gatech.edu> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > This is assuming the only alternative is current technology. I think we > can agree that the EV1 with its monster 1000# battery back and only 70-90 > miles per charge is a nice start, but it is not the answer. If you want to > take into account the energy/cost to make the battery packs and the > electric motor to raise the cost of operation of an electric, you have to > compare that with the energy/cost to manufacture an ICE: Engine block, > heads, valves, springs, rockers, pushrods, pistons, rods, cam (maybe > solenoids in the future) exhaust system, larger coolant system, a starter, > ignition system, larger water pump, fuel system, fuel pump, etc etc. With > electrics you have: Big Induction motor which has far fewer parts, no > exhaust system, no fuel system & compenents, no oil system, no ignition > system, smaller coolant system. If electrics were being produced at the > same levels as ICEs the cost would probably be far less. There are far > fewer value-added manufacturing steps involved here and design tolerances > are not as critical. > Crate Electric motors will probably be way cheaper > than ICEs also(for your future aftermarket swapping enjoyment :) ) I tend to disagree. The electronics which go into a modern EV are completely non-trivial. If it were otherwise, they would have started hitting the roads a long time ago. Lest y'all forget, electric cars came first. There were electric carriages toodling around the streets of London back in the days of steam carriages. Electric cars (and steam carriages too) lost out because the technology of the time sucked in comparison to IC's. The technology in these electric cars has come a long way in recent years, with the advent of computers and newer semiconductors making it much more feasible to design and run the power invertors which these monsters require. Unfortunately, IC engines have progressed by leaps and bounds in that same period, and the same computer, sensor, and control technology that has benefitted electroic cars is also reaping benefits for IC's, bringing things like low-emissions, extremely high efficiency DGI cars closer to realization as well. The cost of manufacturing the EV's themselves is just a tiny piece of the puzzle. If everyone were to start driving electric cars, we would be faced with the necessity of having to make a huge increase in the capacity of the electric power grid in most parts of the country, notably central and southern California, where the capacity of the grid as it is now is already marginal for the summer loads (as events of recent summers have shown). The amount of time and capital investment required to make the electric car idea work on a large scale, when you toss everything into the bucket, is pretty staggering. As Honda has so aptly pointed out while publicizing the ZEV technology which they are bringing to fruition, electric cars are not Zero Emissions Vehicles. They're really Remote Emissions Vehicles, and when you factor in what comes out the smokestack of the plant generating electricity for that EV, and compare it to IC technology that is currently in development, EV's suddenly don't look as wonderful as everyone has been claiming they are. > The reason it probably won't for a while is that an acceptable battery (at > least 200mi per charge, light weight, low volume, shorter charge time, etc) > has not been invented yet. However, as someone said, don't bet against > technology. People have been working on this (batteries) since before the turn of the century, and the progress so far has been next to nothing. Even if you look at the electromotive series and just fantasize about things you -might- be able to build, even though you never could for practical reasons, it's hardly promising. Even if you could run your car on Lithium batteries, which will never happen, the energy density of Lithium batteries is still pathetic in comparison to gasoline. I never bet against technology, the question is which technology to bet for. It's a footrace between EV's and better IC technology. And what I see based on what I've read, is EV technology inching along with painful slowness, having made good progress in some areas over the last 10 years (motors and motor drive technology) but still foundering on the same problems which have plagued it for 100 years (low energy density of batteries and reliance on an inflexible power grid for charging), whereas IC emissions control technology and efficiency has progressed by leaps and bounds in the last 30 years, to a degree nobody would have believed possible only a short time ago, and the biggest improvements yet to be made are just now entering the pipeline, and will probably be coming to market in the next 5 to 10 years. As I see it, the only thing to recommend electric vehicles right now is the low emissions. In another 10 years, when this new IC technology really starts to hit the market, that supposed emissions advantage will rapidly disappear, and companies and govornments will find it more and more difficult to justify continuing to throw money at a 100+ year old idea that never worked well to begin with and still doesn't work well now. Which is not to say that I couldn't be proved wrong, I'm just telling you where I would place my money if I were betting on the thing. Zack From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 22:52:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10227 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:52:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10223 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:52:22 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA23352 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:52:22 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:53:07 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35a9cfb8.96524234@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <01bd7882$cef9c940$58198fd1@nacelp> In-Reply-To: <01bd7882$cef9c940$58198fd1@nacelp> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id WAA10224 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 5 May 1998 20:06:24 -0400, "Bruce Plecan" wrote: > David wrote: >> >>The first is model 22-174ue for $ 69.99 >> > Measures frequencies up to 2MHz, capacitance, >>transistor gain, even shown NPN/PNP polarity and E-B-C pinout on display. >Frequency is nice to have when ya do need it, >IMHO, for $20 worth it. I agree, but even more so, is the capacitance measuring option, like Clive also said. This is especially important since the SMD caps usually aren't marked (my cheapos aren't anyway), and it's really the pits if/when you spill some together on the bench and then start vehemently denting your forehead with your palm. Gar From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 22:53:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10272 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:53:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10261 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:53:20 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-19.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.88]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id WAA03807 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:52:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Boingers Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 22:53:36 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd789a$2a1bbec0$58198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Clare Snyder Subject: Re: Boingers >I know a lot of endurance racers run 100:1 2 stroke gas/oil mixture in >their Mazdas for this very reason. The engines smoke a bit, but do not >wear out. 13A-B, or them 3 rotor jobs?, or all?. Got any clue as to HC/CO levels at 100:1.. What block off the oil injection?. Then just premix?. Cheers Bruce >-- > _/\_ > --|-----([])-----|-- > S 0/ \0 B > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 23:16:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10548 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:16:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10544 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:16:40 -0400 Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-108-41.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.108.41]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA78280 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 03:16:39 GMT Message-ID: <354FD719.E719F4A4@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:21:07 -0400 From: "Christopher G. Moog" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: High MPG electic raving References: <3.0.32.19980504132231.00689e98@pop.prism.gatech.edu> <354E57A3.2E56C6A7@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Several people wanted to know the source of my info so here is a short summary The DOE web page http://ev2.inel.gov/sop/eva/ gives overall efficiency of several electric vehicles be sure to use charger numbers (248 for EV1 and 412 for RAV4EV) since these include battery losses (DOE is unclear on the cycle driven for this number) Electric plant efficiency is measured as Heat Rate. When I interned at Con Edison the plants ran from 9,000 to 13,000 btu/kW-hr. Newer combined cycle plants are probably better (maybe 8,000 btus/kW-hr). Gasoline heat content runs from about 106,000 to 116,000 btus per gallon (oxygenated fuel at the low end). Also my comments on mass transit. In areas where it is available and reasonable it should be used. It will not work in many areas of the country and it will never replace other forms of personnel travel. My point was, ICEs are more efficient than people realize and that electrics are a false path. The money spent on electric research would be better spent elsewhere (diesels, mass transit, telecommuting, etc.) > As far as electric goes they use more energy per mile than an efficient ICE > automobile. The EV1 uses 248 watt-hrs/mi (measured at the charger) The RAV4 > uses 412 watt-hrs/mi (again at the charger) This electricity is produced at a > fossil fueled plant (the energy used by EVs should be counted against the > incremental generator not the base plants since they represent a new load). > These plants need approximately 10,000 btus of fuel to produce 1,000 watt-hour of > energy. So the EV1 uses the equivalent of 2480 btus to travel a mile. Since > gasoline has 114,000 btus per gallon the EV1 is getting the equivalent of 46 > mpg. The RAV4EV is getting the equivalent of 28 mpg. Neither of these figures > beats a good ICE vehicle with the same performance. > > To reduce oil use with electric vehicles will require a nuclear based electrical > system. Until that happens we should save fuel by using mass transit (where > available), efficient ICE (vehicles not inefficient EVs and not SUVs), and by > cutting wasted travel. From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 23:24:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10792 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:24:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10788 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:24:07 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA24052 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:24:07 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:24:53 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35add5d1.98085593@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <000d01bd7877$6053fc00$5c6e2299@default> <354FB790.EEE9A980@mwt.net> <354FC3EA.66CA@huron.net> In-Reply-To: <354FC3EA.66CA@huron.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id XAA10789 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 05 May 1998 21:59:06 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: >Steven Gorkowski wrote: >> >> If you buy radio shack meter buy the extended warranty I bought the data >> logging one that hooks to the pc and it rides in a race car. >> meter $99.00 >> 3 yr. $9.99 >Forget the extended warranty - if it is going to fail it will likely >fail within warranty. Use the money you save on this warranty, double >it, and buy another meter. The warranties are a rip-off. Actually Clare, this might be one eXtreme eXception to me feeling just like you do, cuz REMEMBER, on the multimeters, if you forget and leave the leads in the CURRENT measuring plugins, you run a decent risk of fryin the thang, EVEN if it does have good fast fuses. BTDT. It's true it shouldn't happen, but on the lesser well designed ones at this price point, it's a REAL issue. Funny story: I was in a Grainger office one day, waiting for my order to get picked, and a bunch of us waitin at the counter were watching this Fluke "bake-off contest" movie running on the demo TV. They showed how lots of the lesser brands don't always pass the smoke test on OV ratings, and how many of them will smoke (even tho fused) if you screw up and forget to put the leads back in the right place after measuring current. As the guy on the TV goes and demos this "boo-boo", all of us standing there looked at each other, grinned, and then swore to each other that we'd "NEVER done that". Hee. Worth a good hoot, it was. Gar From diy_efi-owner Tue May 5 23:38:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11121 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:38:31 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11117 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:38:29 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA24421 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:38:28 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:39:14 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35afdad1.99365546@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <354FB08E.3E1648CE@mwt.net> In-Reply-To: <354FB08E.3E1648CE@mwt.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id XAA11118 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 05 May 1998 19:36:31 -0500, Steven Gorkowski wrote: >I have removed epoxy and repaired several >units using this stuff. They have a catalog just call them up . > >Dynaloy Inc. >7 Great Meadow lane >Hanover N.J. 07936 > >Phone 201-887-9270 Priceless info, dude. Kudos. Man, I love this internet thang; whadid I ever do without it? Grope in the dark on alot of these questions, I guess. B) Gar From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 00:00:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11435 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:00:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (vcc11.vcc.bc.ca [207.102.127.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11429 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:00:01 -0400 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id VAA51816; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:00:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Boingers In-Reply-To: <19980505.211359.10790.5.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 5 May 1998, Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > We can argue all day about the relative merits of the two technologies, > but the Wankyl doesn't seem to have enough to offer to entice more than > one car company to put any money into it. The bottom line on the Wankel Rotary seems to be that the surface-to-volume ratio is poor, compared to a conventional piston engine, therefor dooming it to a niche in engine history. OTOH, Felix's rotary valve engines seem to be pretty interesting...at least the Torpedo V8, anyway. Talk about serious EGR. > forcing a few ounces of metal bounce back and forth. You could hold the > crank still and rotate the cylinders. I believe the British made an > engine that did that. > Well, they made a copy of the original, which was French [of course]... vive le differance! Jim Davies From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 00:00:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11464 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:00:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from admin.inetport.com (inetport.com [206.64.12.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11460 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:00:49 -0400 Received: from default (as02-4.inetport.com [206.64.12.132]) by admin.inetport.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA26859 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:00:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805060400.XAA26859@admin.inetport.com> From: "Zack" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:05:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.19980505201643.007a83a0@xephic.dynip.com> References: <000d01bd7877$6053fc00$5c6e2299@default> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Frederic, Aside from their durability, the one thing Fluke meters are noted for is their very high accuracy, which cheaper meters generally can't approach. When I used to be a physics student, I don't think I saw anything -but- Fluke in use around labs, but for a home instrument, or for DIY type stuff, unless your stuffed with cash the accuracy is probably not worth the cost, and I would go for the Radio Shack unit. Zack > I also have a "Fluke" meter that was at > least double the price, which can be dropped, stepped on, and is definately > more durable. > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 00:00:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11471 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:00:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from admin.inetport.com (inetport.com [206.64.12.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11467 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:00:51 -0400 Received: from default (as02-4.inetport.com [206.64.12.132]) by admin.inetport.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA26862 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:01:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805060401.XAA26862@admin.inetport.com> From: "Zack" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:05:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Boingers Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19980505.211359.10790.5.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > There are other ways of reducing the loss due to > forcing a few ounces of metal bounce back and forth. You could hold > the crank still and rotate the cylinders. I believe the British > made an engine that did that. Ray, If you hold the crank still, you -still- have that metal bouncing back and forth. You cannot, even in theory, create a piston engine with perfect dynamic balance. You can in theory achieve perfect dynamic balance in a rotary engine, and some designs have in fact achieved this (the Moller Rotary for one), though most have not (the dynamic balance of Mazda's rotaries is not perfect). . As for the rotary piston engine (which cannot be dynamically balanced) lots of people made rotary piston engines, not just the British (the rotary kind on the old WWI planes, where the entire engine rotated around the stationary crankshaft). They were a very unfavorable design for lots of reasons, and didn't last very long. In all honesty, I think the jury is still out on the Wankel. There's no getting around the fact that the power output per unit volume and per unit weight is -much- higher than for a piston engine. The only reason you don't see bigger rotary engines in terms of total output is because of the fuel consumption issue. Mazda claims to have made great improvements in both efficiency and power output with the MSPRE, and Moller is now marketing a rotary that is demonstrably as fuel efficient (if not more) and has lower emissions than most piston engines. Whether either of these will actually make it to the automotive market and prove practical and durable remains to be seen, but the prospects are certainly interesting. ( A tiny Moller rotary tied to a generator in a hybrid electric vehicle would be -extremely- interesting ). Whatever bad things one may say about the rotary, and there are plenty of justifiable criticisms, it has survived far longer in the automotive market than any comparable "alternative" powerplant that I can think of. Z From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 00:00:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11457 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:00:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from admin.inetport.com (inetport.com [206.64.12.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11453 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:00:47 -0400 Received: from default (as02-4.inetport.com [206.64.12.132]) by admin.inetport.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA26854 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:00:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805060400.XAA26854@admin.inetport.com> From: "Zack" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:05:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Boingers Priority: normal In-reply-to: <354FC295.1261@huron.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Alain, Carbon deposits and the burning of the oil inside the engine have nothing to do with shortened longevity IMHO. I have seen rotaries at 200,000 miles which ran just fine, which is pretty impressive for such a tiny, high revving engine. (The hard driven 4 banger in my old Honda was pretty much dead at 130). A very common (if not notorious) cause of premature rotary death (premature meaning, before the 200,000 that you would expect for a well cared for engine), is failure of the eccentric shaft oil bypass valve, which leads to insufficient oil flow through the rotors, overheating of the oil in the rotors (and the rotors themselves), leading to failure of the seals. R&R of this item is recommended every 50-75k miles by those who know about it, but it is rarely done, probably as a result of ignorance. This isn't really an engine design fault, it's a maintenance fault. Just imagine the bad rap that piston engines would get if nobody ever replaced a timing belt, and if 95% of the mechanics who worked on them had no idea what a timing belt was or where it was and no idea why or when it should be replaced... Zack > Alain Toussaint wrote: > > > > here's my 1/50 of a buck,the thing hampering the durability of the wankel > > engine is the oil,oil made for regular engine will not burn efficiently, > > 4 stroke engine oil will leave carbon deposit on apex seal,the solution > > Road & Track magazine did to their racing (don't know what class do they > > race but it's not the quarter mile variety) is to put 2 stroke engine oil > > in their motor,it's been a while since i read the report but i think they > > said it did an amelioration of the durability of the motor,i think there > > was also an article in Kitplanes (not sure),they reported having seen > > carbon deposit in engine from 10 000 milles on up (even on heavily > > pampered engine),the solution for these motor if they wanted to last is > > that they would rely on 2 stroke engine oil. > > > > any though on this ?? > > > > Alain Toussaint > > > > > I am amazed that someone who is obviously not stupid should bad mouth > > > the wankle rotary engine.. It is quite simply the proper design for an > > > engine. Yea alright the design is flawed due to the problem with the > > > seals wearing, but in this day and age with ceramic technology there > > > must be a way to make this problem go away. I have always wanted a car > > > engine that revs to 14,000 rpm with good efficiency. > > > > > > But thats my problem > > > > > > Rob Humphris > > > > > > >---------- > > > >From: Frederic Breitwieser[SMTP:frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com] > > > >Sent: 05 May 1998 05:44 > > > >To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > >Subject: Boingers > > > > > > > >>Anyway, just wanted to put a slant on things. > > > > > > > >Okay Michael, short and sweet- my apologies for not including the wankel in > > > >my suggestive list of inefficient antiquated technology :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Frederic Breitwieser > > > >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > > > > > > >Homebrew Automotive Website: > > > >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > > > > > > > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > > > >1989 HMMWV > > > >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > > > > > > > >- > > > > > > > > > > > I know a lot of endurance racers run 100:1 2 stroke gas/oil mixture in > their Mazdas for this very reason. The engines smoke a bit, but do not > wear out. > -- > _/\_ > --|-----([])-----|-- > S 0/ \0 B > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > E-Mail service is back to normal > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > OR > Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the > spammers!!! > It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of > Turkeys!!! > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 00:23:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11901 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:23:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11897 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:23:06 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA10854 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:23:04 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:23:04 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805060423.OAA10854@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Yes, I see your point about the energy in/out bit. However, somewhere (I can't remember where) I've heard of heat pumps that are 300% efficient. Of course, the efficiency depends mainly on the refrigerant used, and so does the the temperature difference. Ie. get the right refrigerant, and get the desired results. The biggest problem is: is there a refrigerant that will do the job... > I would look a little closer at the heat-pump idea the 110 % >efficancy only means for every 100 watts in electical-mecanical energy put in >you get 110 watts of heat out, not a big differance. Electric heaters >are 100% efficant at turning electical energy to heat, but then so is a >light bulb. I am not sure what temps you need in the "refinery" but heat >pumps work real well for small delta T's ie. 0 to 30 degrees, but >are less attractive at higher delta T's. Good luck, refine your proposal >stick with a how this will help the envirorment theme, and start asking >for grants, with luck you might get a career out of it. > >Mike D. > > >> From diy_efi-owner@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Tue May 5 00:34 CDT 1998 >> From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) >> >> Just so that the guesses can stop coming in (even though it has been >> discovered what I am intending)... >> >> I intend to build an in car "oil refinery." This may sound like a heap of BS >> to many, but others have researched the possibility, and found it might be >> viable IF it can be controled somehow. >> >> The basic principal behind it is to catalytically crack the fuel molecules, >> in the presence of hydrogen, and form methane. This reaction is an >> ENDOthermic reaction - ie. it requires energy (in the form of heat) to be >> put IN, and thereby, the products of the reaction are at a higher energy >> state than the fuel that was put in. Thus, otherwise wasted heat energy is >> stored CHEMICALLY, to be used within the engine. Because of this "recycling" >> effect, less fuel should be required for the same power output, and hence, >> greater efficiency. >> >> The main problem with methane as a fuel (from what I am told) is that it >> burns with a lower temperature than gasoline (this means it is more >> "explosive" in its reaction, but changes in ignition timing will cure this >> problem). Since it burns with a lower temperature, it might not produce >> exhaust gases hot enough to keep the catalytic cracking reaction going. This >> is where the refrigerants come in. >> >> Everyone knows about heat pumps... They use a little bit of energy to >> TRANSFER a large amount of energy from one place to another. This is how a >> home heat pump can have an efficiency of say 110% - The energy it TRANSFERS >> is FAR GREATER than the energy it uses. For those who can't grasp this - >> consider a fuel pump on an engine. It uses a small amount of energy, but it >> pumps fuel, which has a very large amount of energy stored in it >> (chemically). The heat pump is just the same. Also, a heat pump can take >> heat energy from a cold place, and put it into a warm place, making the cold >> place colder, and the warm place warmer. This is how you can sit in your >> cosy room at 30 deg C, when it is 0 deg C outside, simply by using a heat pump. >> >> How does the heat pump apply to the fuel system? Remember I said that the >> exhaust gases of the methane powered engine may be too cold to keep the >> reaction going? I intend to use a heat pump (using a little bit of energy) >> to TRANSFER a very large amount of energy from the exhaust (making it yet >> cooler), to the little oil refinery mounted on the engine (keeping it at the >> desired temperature). Hence, I have stipulated the refrigerant to be able to >> cope with temperatures of (at least) between 20 deg C, and 500 to 600 deg C. >> In actual fact, it would be better if it were to work at a larger temp >> range. This is also why I said that some kind of head cooling system would >> help my little project, although it isn't my project, per-say. However, I >> had thought of it before. If all of the wasted heat could be collected from >> the oil, the coolant system, and the exhaust (bearing in mind that both the >> coolant system, and the oil should be kept at their most efficient >> temperatures), then the system should (not saying it will) be more efficient >> still. In fact, it might be possible for such a system to replace the >> radiator, and recirculate the energy, instead of throwing it away by >> increasing the ambient air temperature. >> >> However, such a system would have a maximum efficiency, where the attempt to >> recycle any more energy would result in the system using more extra energy >> than it gains. I do not know where this point is, but I would like to find out. >> >> As for where EFI fits in, obviously, an EFI system can meter just the right >> amount of fuel (and water that is thermally cracked, and electrostatically >> separated into H(+) and O(2-) ions, then made into H2 and O2 inseparate >> chambers) needed more accurately than any carburettor will ever be able to. >> Also, it may be possible to have another EFI computer controling the heat >> pump, so that the little oil refinery can stay at its most efficient >> temperature. >> >> Any comments/ideas??? >> >> Danny Barrett. >> >> >> > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 00:36:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA12308 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:36:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12300 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:36:42 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA14386 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:36:35 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:36:35 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805060436.OAA14386@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V3 #193 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Already done - The Nisan GTR, affectionately known as "GODZILLA" in Australia... >For you performance car fans, the computer could use the steering wheel >position, acceleration sensors, etc. to determine how much torque to put >to each wheel for ideal traction when cornering. Each wheel could be >kept near its adhesion limits. The actual force vector on the contact >patch would be at some angle based on th eamount of torque applied and >the centrepital acceleration. > >Ray Drouillard > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 00:36:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA12324 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:36:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from dialup0.bushnell.net (root@dialup0.bushnell.net [207.177.24.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12319 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:36:54 -0400 Received: from Avonil.net.AvonIL.net (port3.dialup0.avonil.net [207.177.24.198]) by dialup0.bushnell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA32090 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:34:38 -0500 Message-ID: <007301bd78a8$a5074d80$c618b1cf@Avonil.net.AvonIL.net> From: "Dave Balfour" To: Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:36:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I purchased a small digital handleld high impedence multi meter from radio shack for 20 dollars last year. It is smaller than a pack of cigarettes including the leads -----Original Message----- From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 11:24 PM Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted >On Tue, 05 May 1998 21:59:06 -0400, Clare Snyder >wrote: > >>Steven Gorkowski wrote: >>> >>> If you buy radio shack meter buy the extended warranty I bought the data >>> logging one that hooks to the pc and it rides in a race car. >>> meter $99.00 >>> 3 yr. $9.99 > >>Forget the extended warranty - if it is going to fail it will likely >>fail within warranty. Use the money you save on this warranty, double >>it, and buy another meter. The warranties are a rip-off. > >Actually Clare, this might be one eXtreme eXception to me feeling just >like you do, cuz REMEMBER, on the multimeters, if you forget and leave >the leads in the CURRENT measuring plugins, you run a decent risk of >fryin the thang, EVEN if it does have good fast fuses. BTDT. It's true >it shouldn't happen, but on the lesser well designed ones at this price >point, it's a REAL issue. > >Funny story: I was in a Grainger office one day, waiting for my order to >get picked, and a bunch of us waitin at the counter were watching this >Fluke "bake-off contest" movie running on the demo TV. They showed how >lots of the lesser brands don't always pass the smoke test on OV >ratings, and how many of them will smoke (even tho fused) if you screw >up and forget to put the leads back in the right place after measuring >current. As the guy on the TV goes and demos this "boo-boo", all of us >standing there looked at each other, grinned, and then swore to each >other that we'd "NEVER done that". Hee. Worth a good hoot, it was. > >Gar > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 00:43:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA12542 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:43:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12538 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:43:50 -0400 Received: from JCsDOOR@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8RIMa19024 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:43:01 -0400 (EDT) From: JCs DOOR Message-ID: <80c9050f.354fea57@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:43:01 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 40 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu well we apear to be in luck . i found another di .that we can try to get unpotted. HAVE HEAT GUN and mask am ready to do the deed. send hints and ill go to it.. jim its spring time in the rockeys From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 00:48:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA12662 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:48:31 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from suntan.eng.usf.edu (chtaylor@suntan.eng.usf.edu [131.247.14.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12658 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:48:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (chtaylor@localhost) by suntan.eng.usf.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13275 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:48:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Taylor-iii X-Sender: chtaylor@suntan To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Fuel Injection Design Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Clive, I do have a dyno result for the bike, and the results are at the rear wheel so it would account for losses. The run I have is not the greatest run it was taking when I was working out the bugs in the bike, will redo here shortly. Max torque occurred at 6800 RPM with 55.2 ft-lbs, bike redlines at 10500. You say that VE(I assume this is volumetric efficiency) should be around 110% to 120%, book I have says around 75% for a stock motorcycle engine in good condition. I am using a stock engine and assuming good condition. I am not completely sure if I understand how you say to get the air consumption curve. You say: "multiply the RPM x air comsumed at RPM x VE at RPM x frictional loss correction to get an air comsuption curve" Since I have the torque curve then I should multiply (RPM)(Volume one cylinder)(VE) Where VE would be the torque at that RPM but in percent form?? So at the 6800 RPM from my dyno run I would have this for 908cc engine: (6800)(227cc)(.552)=852067cc/min And then for each point along the torque curve do the same thing?? And this will give me an air consumption curve. Am I on the right track? Or do I use the torque curve and say that the max of the curve is what I say the Max VE is and then slice it into parts and compare it against the RPM. This way the air consumtion at 6800 RPM would be(assuming VEmax=75): (6800)(227cc)(.75)=1157700cc/min Then at each RPM spot I would chose what the VE would be according to the VEmax being 75. Appreciate the help. Don't spam me too hard I am trying to learn this stuff but have yet to find the books that explain a lot of what I need. Thanks Chuck Taylor chtaylor@eng.usf.edu *******************************'84 Kawasaki 900 Ninja * University of South Florida * 7.21 @ 96.37 1/8th mile * Mechanical Engineering Dept * 11.37 @ 117.27 1/4 mile * (8 months and counting) *'80 Kawasaki Z1-R 1000 ******************************* Restoration project From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 01:17:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13361 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:17:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13357 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:17:48 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA26605 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:17:47 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 22:18:33 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35b5f0a1.104949593@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <80c9050f.354fea57@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <80c9050f.354fea57@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id BAA13358 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 6 May 1998 00:43:01 EDT, JCs DOOR wrote: >well we apear to be in luck . i found another di .that we can try to get >unpotted. Hey, great. Say, BTW, Jim, I was talking to my local Saab dealer today, and they said that although the "Trionic" system wasn't introduced until '93, the DI system has been in use since '90!! Man that's a long time; the thing I'm really curious about is, DID even those earlier systems ALSO do firing and knock detection via ionization detection? Just wanna know how far back this Saab use of Ionization technology actually goes. Might help in searching out the key SAE papers to read. Could you have a look in say maybe your '90 shop manual, or maybe you know right off the top of your head if those earlier DI units had the special Ionization detection magic in them. TIA. > HAVE HEAT GUN and mask am ready to do the deed. >send hints and ill go to it.. Uh, Jim, did you see Steve Gorkowski's latest post on that? Them chemicals might be alot easier than tryna melt the thang, but hey, don't let me stop ya. Just don't fry yerself! Gar From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 01:24:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13478 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:24:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13474 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:24:04 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA26787 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:24:01 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:24:01 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805060524.PAA26787@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: High MPG X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Around here, when you consider everything (including cylinder hire - you can't *buy* auto cylinders anymore, from what I've heard), you need to do about 30,000 km (18,600 miles) per year to even break even - I only do about 10,000 to 15,000 km per year - a lot of good it would do me. However, all of the taxi's use liquified petroleum gas, as they are doing well above this figure... Danny Barrett. P.S.: it's been that long since I've looked at the price of fule down here that I had forgotten that the price had gone down - in Tasmania, it's now about 75 Aussy cents per litre for leaded (what my car currently requires), and 73 cents per litre for unleaded. This equates to about $4.37 (US) per US gallon, and $4.25 (US) per US gallon, respectively. As for LPG (propane), it is about $0.45 per litre, or $2.62 (US) per US gallon. >If I lived in an area where gas prices are that high, I would be a lot >more agressive in my plans for running my Full-Sized Jeep on propane or >methane. Right now, there isn't enough of a price advantage. > >On Wed, 6 May 1998 00:11:27 +1000 (EST) danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au >(Danny Barrett) writes: >>$1 (US) per gallon (US gallon I assume)... You should see what we have >to >>pay for it in Oz... about 80 cents (Aus) per litre here in Tasmania. >This >>equates to about $4.66 (US) per US gallon!!! In mainland Australia, it >isn't >>as expensive, but you're still probably looking at more than $3.80 (US) >per >>US Gallon!!! And some people wonder why I'm after a bit better fuel >economy >>by trying to catalytically crack the fuel, and make it go further... >> >>Danny Barrett. >> >> >>(chopped) >>>with gasoline at $1 a gallon, its just not worth it. >>>Gary Derian >>(chopped) >> >> > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 01:34:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13639 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:34:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from news.Rt66.com (news.rt66.com [198.59.162.244]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13635 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:34:54 -0400 Received: from hobbs (pmg02.rt66.com [198.59.176.67]) by news.Rt66.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA01101 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:21:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805060521.XAA01101@news.Rt66.com> X-Sender: ccorbin@mail.rt66.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:23:52 -0600 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Clint Corbin Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted In-Reply-To: <199805060232.WAA23576@web02.globecomm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 10:32 PM 5/5/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Anything Fluke tends to be good...far more robust than most on the market...they don't mind mistakes re range settings except obviously current, they are more expensive than most, but you only buy one and it lasts. >Have had a Fluke 27 for some years and never a problem. used almost daily....good test leads too. >Make sure what ever you get is autoranging and has range hold capability too, cap test and thermo. sometimes useful, but better to spend money on quality > >Grant My dad has had a Fluke 4000 series meter for longer than I can remember. He used to use it daily, but now only occasionally. The thing is still working great. After moving out (and my dad making me return his meter!), I had to get one for myself. I had the same decisions to make: save money, or get quality. A Fluke 87 is currently sitting on my dresser now. The thing has full auto-ranging, frequency, duty-cycle, true RMS, etc, etc. I love it! One other thing to note: I have worked for several companys that use multimeters and every single one of them have used Fluke meters EXCLUSIVLY. A lot of companies are more than happy to cut corners where they think they can get away with it. But Fluke is still the meter of choice.... JMTCW. Clint From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 01:43:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13854 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:43:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from soleil.acomp.usf.edu (soleil.acomp.usf.edu [131.247.100.19]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13849 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:43:30 -0400 Received: from centauri (bob@tampappp10.net.usf.edu [131.247.166.10]) by soleil.acomp.usf.edu (8.8.7/8.6.5) with SMTP id BAA06140 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:44:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805060544.BAA06140@soleil.acomp.usf.edu> From: "Jake Lindeke" Organization: Supra Owners Group International To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 01:49:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Water injection and racing Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199805060232.WAA23576@web02.globecomm.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu if i want to Race in an Naturally Aspirated class, is water injection considered a form of aspiration like Turbo, Super chargers, or NOS? --Jake Lindeke --SOGI South-East Chapter Coordinator --http://sesogi.bsfh.org From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 01:51:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA14030 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:51:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA14025 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:51:21 -0400 Received: from main (alaint@ppp113.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.113]) by mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA24528 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 01:48:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Alain Toussaint X-Sender: alaint@main To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Boingers In-Reply-To: <199805060400.XAA26854@admin.inetport.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Alain, > > Carbon deposits and the burning of the oil inside the engine > have nothing to do with shortened longevity IMHO. I have seen > rotaries at 200,000 miles which ran just fine, which is pretty > impressive for such a tiny, high revving engine. (The hard driven 4 > banger in my old Honda was pretty much dead at 130). > A very common (if not notorious) cause of premature rotary death > (premature meaning, before the 200,000 that you would expect for a > well cared for engine), is failure of the eccentric shaft oil bypass > valve, which leads to insufficient oil flow through the rotors, > overheating of the oil in the rotors (and the rotors themselves), > leading to failure of the seals. R&R of this item is recommended > every 50-75k miles by those who know about it, but it is rarely done, > probably as a result of ignorance. This isn't really an engine > design fault, it's a maintenance fault. Just imagine the bad rap > that piston engines would get if nobody ever replaced a timing belt, > and if 95% of the mechanics who worked on them had no idea what a > timing belt was or where it was and no idea why or when it should be > replaced... > > Zack nice point,i see it's a driver's thing (the durability that is),premixing 2 stroke oil & gas would help in that case but i don't think the average owner bringing his gas can and his 2 stroke oil bottle at the local fuel station and mixing thing up be4 puting it in the gas thank (just imagine how mazda would be losing sale if it required owner doing just that),so a compromise have to be done and it's not the best either (the valve thing),about customer ignorance,i can think a lot of thing that consumer should be doing as maintenance beside oil change,one thing that spring to mind is radiator maintenance,how much customer know that they should flush a radiator twice a year and put distilated water in the rad,i've seen much failure of cooling due to that,and i think overheating is much related to radiator rusting. Alain From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 02:08:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA14356 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 02:08:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from uia.net (uia.net [157.22.213.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA14352 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 02:08:41 -0400 Received: from tyan-machine (157.22.213.106) by uia.net with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0.1); Tue, 5 May 1998 23:09:14 -0700 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: RE: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:08:35 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <354F2D18.A227FABE@virgin.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Message-ID: <1317712739-32651744@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Not me - there is someone with enthusiasm and who thoroughly enjoys the prospect who has already run with the ball. I couldn't even begin to run fast enough to catch up. I plan to gleefully follow the leader and if possible, contribute to the cause. As for being an expert, the principal has been around for a while and has been discussed in print, book and previously on this group. SAAB is the first I know to go into production with it. > What can I say - this man obviously understands the principles of > ion CURRENT > measurement perfectly well - Bob, why don't you head the > development team as you > are such an expert!!!! > > I would be interested in joining the ION team, as it is what I > does anyways. > > Tony > > -- > Sent By Tony Cooper. > email: tony.cooper@virgin.net > Allow at least 10 working minutes for reply. ;) > > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 02:18:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA14538 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 02:18:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA14534 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 02:18:04 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-033.mcn.net [208.26.146.33]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA20716 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:18:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354FFD6C.1B526068@mcn.net> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:04:28 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Fuel Line Fittings Updated References: <01bd7879$42e93e80$382b4cd1@terryk.foothill.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu TBK wrote: > > Excellent list! > > Any chance you know the two fittings used in the GM power steering pumps? I > need to connect a 1986 Ciera hose to a 1992 3800 SC pump. It will thread in > the 92 pump, but I think they are different compression methods. Both pumps > are the plastic reservoir type. But your list solved the fuel line issue. I > will cut the plastic quick disconnects off, add the 14/16mm nuts and have > then double flared again and use female to female hoses. I would just prefer > to not have gas shooting on the exhaust manifold at 60PSI. Call me a wimp. > > TK > I can't say without any certainty what fittings are in your pumps, but I believe the pressure line is a 16mm X 1.5 saginaw type. For custom hoses I often cut through the factory crimp and remove the ends I need, then take them to someone who makes hydraulic hoses to put them together. Shannen From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 03:43:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA15354 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 03:43:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from radius1.teleport.com (radius1.teleport.com [192.108.254.35]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA15350 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 03:43:18 -0400 Received: from scottmo (pdx59-i48-21.teleport.com [204.202.167.227]) by radius1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA08886 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35501456.2397@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:42:14 -0700 From: "Scott Mo." X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? References: <80c9050f.354fea57@aol.com> <35b5f0a1.104949593@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Here are some other SAE technical Paper listings that I found doing a search for " ionization". They may be useful for the DIY Trionic stuff. There is also one related to the SAAB direct ignition system in 1989. Document Number: 890044 Title: Saab direct ignition system and its cold start performance Publication Date:1989 Author(s):Jiewertz, Sten; Klemisch, Bobby; Anderland, Torsten; Gillbrand, Per S. Organization(s):Saab-Scania AB, Sweden; Saab-Scania AB, Sweden; Saab-Scania AB, Sweden; Saab-Scania AB, Sweden Check out this one from 1959.......Nuclear dude! 590186 Title:Engine voltage requirements using spark plugs pre-ionized with "radioactive" gold Publication Date:1959 Author(s):Gumbleton, J. J. Organization(s):Engrg. Staff, General Motors Corp. ________________________________________________________________ ionization search: Document Number:980166 Title:In-cylinder air/fuel ratio approximation using spark gap ionization sensing Publication Date: Feb 1998 Author(s):Balles, Eric N.; VanDyne, Edward A.; Wahl, Alexandre M.; Ratton, Kenneth; Lai,Ming-Chia Organization(s): Adrenaline Research, Inc.; Adrenaline Research, Inc.; Adrenaline Research, Inc.; Wayne State Univ.; Wayne State Univ. Document Number:980048 Title:Real-time analysis of particulate matter by flame ionization detection Publication Date: Feb 1998 Author(s): Kawai, Terunao,; Iuchi, Yutaka; Nakamura, Shigeo; Ishida, KozoOrganization(s): The University of Shiga Prefecture; Horiba Ltd.; Horiba Ltd.; Horiba Ltd.Meeting: SAE International Congress and Exposition Document Number:970857 Title:In-cylinder pressure measurements using the spark plug as an ionization sensor Publication Date:Feb 1997 Author(s): Saitzkoff, Andr\ae; Reinmann, Raymond; Mauss, Fabian; Glavmo, Magnus Document Number:970856 Title:Local air-fuel ratio measurements using the spark plug as an ionization sensor Publication Date: Feb 1997 Author(s):Reinmann, Raymond; Saitzkoff, Andr\ae; Mauss, Fabian; Glavmo, Magnus Document Number:970507 Title:Measurements of the effect of in-cylinder motion on flame development andcycle-to-cycle variations using an ionization probe head gasket Publication Date:Feb 1997 Author(s):Russ, Stephen; Peet, Gregory; Stockhausen, William Organization(s): Ford Motor Co.; Ford Motor Co.; Ford Motor Co. Document Number:970854 Title:Closed loop ignition control by ionization current interpretation Publication Date:Feb 1997 Author(s): Eriksson, Lars; Nielsen, Lars; Glavenius, Mikael Document Number:961201 Title:Validation tests for a fast response flame ionization detector for in-cylinder sampling near the spark plug Publication Date:May 1996 Author(s):Crawford, John G.; Wallace, James S. Organization(s):University of Toronto; University of Toronto Document Number:960329 Title:Spark ionization controller for vehicle ignition systems Publication Date: Feb 1996 Author(s):Marlow, C. Allen Organization(s):SGS-THOMSON Microelectronics Document Number: 960337 Title: An ionization equilibrium analysis of the spark plug as an ionization sensor Publication Date: Feb 1996 Author(s): Saitzkoff, Andr\ae; Reinmann, Raymond; Berglind, Thomas; Glavmo, Magnus Document Number:960045 Title: Ignition control by ionization current interpretation Publication Date:Feb 1996 Author(s): Eriksson, Lars; Nielsen, Lars; Nytomt, Jan Document Number:952458 Title:Flame propagation and laminar burning velocity measurements in a cylindrical combustion chamber using particle image Publication Date:Oct 1995 Author(s):Zhou, M.; Garner, C. P. Organization(s): Loughborough University of Technology; Loughborough University of Technology Document Number:950814 Title:Cycle-by-cycle variations in combustion and mixture concentration in the vicinity of spark plug gap Publication Date:Feb 1995 Author(s):Lee, Kyung-Hwan; Foster, David E. Organization(s): Hyundai Motor Co.; University of Wisconsin Document Number:950109 Title:A model for converting SI engine flame arrival signals into flame contours Publication Date:Feb 1995 Author(s):Hadjiconstantinou, Nicholas; Heywood, John B. Organization(s): MIT; MIT Document Number:952541 Title:Signal reconstruction applied to a fast response flame ionization detector Publication Date:Oct 1995 Author(s):Summers, T.; Collings, N. Document Number:950160 Title: Modelling the transit time of a fast response flame ionization detector during in-cylinder sampling Publication Date: Feb 1995 Author(s): Summers, Tim; Collings, Nick Document Number:950003 Title:Engine misfire detection by ionization current monitoring Publication Date: Feb 1995 Author(s):Lee, Anson; Pyko, Jan S. Organization(s):Chrysler Corp.; Chrysler Corp. Document Number:941987 Title:Flame shape determination using an optical-fiber spark plug and a head-gasket ionization probe Publication Date:Oct 1994 Author(s):Salvat, Olivier P.; Cheng, Aldebert S.; Cheng, Wai K.; Heywood, John B. Organization(s):P.S.A. Peugeot Citro\agn; Sloan Automotive Lab.; Massachusetts Institute of Technology; Sloan Automotive Lab.; Massachusetts Institute of Technology; Sloan Automotive Lab.; Massachusetts Institute of Technology Document Number:941991 Title: Combustion imaging in engine using electrical impedance measurements Publication Date: Oct 1994 Author(s):Beck, C. M.; He, R.; Waterfall, R. C.; Beck, M. S. Organization(s):Shell Research Ltd.; University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology; University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology; University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology Document Number:930464 Title:Simultaneous application of optical spark plug probe and head gasket ionization probe to a production engine Publication Date:Mar 1993 Author(s):Meyer, Roy; Kubesh, John T.; Shahed, S. M.; Davis, J. Document Number:930462 Title:Flame ion density measurement using spark plug voltage analysis Publication Date:Mar 1993 Author(s): Miyata, Shigeru; Ito, Yasuo; Shiwasaki, Yuichi Organization(s): NGK Spark Plug Co.; NGK Spark Plug Co.; Honda R&D Co., Ltd Document Number:922236 Title:Electrohydrodynamic ignition system for S.I. engines Publication Date:1992 Author(s):Hacohen, J.; Belmont, M. R.; Thurley, R. F. W.; Thomas, J. C.; Morris, E. L.; Buckingham, D. J. Organization(s):University of Exeter; University of Exeter; University of Exeter; University of Exeter; University of Exeter; University of Exeter Document Number:932645 Title:Determining the location of end-gas autoignition using ionization probes installed in the head gasket Publication Date:Oct 1993 Author(s): Witze, P. O.; Green, R. M. Document Number:930390 Title:Flame location measurements in a production engine using ionization probes embodied in a printed-circuit-board head gasket Publication Date:Mar 1993 Author(s):Nicholson, D. E.; Witze, P. O. Organization(s): General Motors Corp.; Sandia National Labs. Document Number:910719 Title: Investigation of in-cylinder fluid motion using a head gasket instrumented with ionization probes Publication Date:1991 Author(s):Witze, Peter O.; Bopp, Stefan C Document Number: 892099 Title:Cycle-resolved multipoint ionization probe measurements in a spark- ignition engine Publication Date:1989 Author(s): Witze, Peter O. Document Number:885068 Title:Closed loop control of spark-ignition engines (application to the fuel system) Publication Date: 1988 Author(s): Lefebvre, C.; Banet, G.; Ecomard, A. Meeting: 22nd FISITA Congress (1988), Dearborn, Michigan, USA Document Number: 860485 Title:In-cylinder measurement of combustion characteristics using ionization sensors Publication Date: 1986 Author(s): Anderson, Robert L. Organization(s): Ford Motor Co., Electrical and Electronics Div., Dearborn, MI Document Number:860635 Title:Knock detection by means of the spark plug Publication Date:1986 Author(s):Collings, Nick; Dinsdale, Steve; Eade, Derek Organization(s):Univ. of Cambridge, U.K.; Univ. of Cambridge, U.K.; Ford Motor Co., Basildon U.K. Document Number:750354 Title:Significance of burn types, as measured by using the spark plugs as ionization probes, with respect to the hydrocarbon emission levels in S.I. engines Publication Date:1975 Author(s):Rado, William G.; Johnson, Wayne J. Organization(s):Ford Motor Co.; Ford Motor Co. Document Number:730088 Title: Turbulent flame structure as determined by pressure development and ionization intensity Publication Date:1973 Author(s): Arrigoni, V.; Calvi, F.; Cornetti, G. M.; Pozzi, U. Organization(s): SNAM Progetti (Italy); SNAM Progetti (Italy); SNAM Progetti (Italy); SNAM Progetti (Italy) Meeting: International Automotive Engineering Congress and Exposition Document Number:730087 Title:Relationship of flame front pattern to pressure and high-speed knock on commercial engines Publication Date:1973 Author(s): Chiampo, P.; de Cristofaro, F.; Gozzelino, R. Organization(s): Fiat S.p.A.; Fiat S.p.A.; Fiat S.p.A. -- Scott Mo. 1989 Audi 200TQ 1988 Audi 5000TQ 1984 Audi 4000S 1966 VW Beetle http://www.teleport.com/~scottmo From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 04:05:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA15597 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 04:05:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA15592 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 04:05:54 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD78CD.B1E0CB10@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:02:28 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: High MPG Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:02:23 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 10 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I've done the ceramic coating at home as well, but I had trouble getting my cylinder head into the oven, now you lot say you use toaster ovens.... You Americans must have very big slices of bread... Rob Humphris >I took this individuals recommendation and demoted my toaster >oven from "toaster" to "ceramic coater". > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 04:34:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA15964 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 04:34:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA15960 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 04:34:26 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD78D1.AE773D70@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:31:00 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Boingers Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:31:00 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 22 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I believe the British made an engine that did that. Yea, Aero engines... 12 cylinders ( or more ) with the prop bolted onto the cylinders, round and round they went, vroooom... all that air flow over the casing kept it nice and cool. Not much use in a car though. >I don't recall seeing any really impressive performance or mileage figures for the Mazda RX7 As far as I know the displacement of the engine is 1.4litres, and it gives performance equivalent to a 2.8. Over in this part of the world during the 80's Mazda did quite a bit of racing, they had a Group C Le Mans entry, which I believe used the Rotary Engine, flat out for 24 hours, it went well. Currently there are one or two mazda's being used over here ( Britian ) for club competetion, the most impressive being the Mazda 121, which is a European hatchback, which has had a twin rotary engine dropped in the front. It runs in the Formula Saloons category ( which is a derestricted category, any engine size in any car with any mods and any aerodynamic aids ) and is very competitive. >Rob Humphris From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 04:53:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA16156 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 04:53:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from newmail.virgin.net (newmail.virgin.net [194.168.54.44]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA16152 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 04:53:18 -0400 Received: from virgin.net ([194.168.73.82]) by newmail.virgin.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 1-55555U125000L125000S0) with ESMTP id AAA26507; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:53:13 +0000 Message-ID: <354F3156.BB3E65C6@virgin.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 16:33:43 +0100 From: Tony Cooper X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, chtaylor@eng.usf.edu Subject: Re: Fuel Injection Design References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Charles Taylor-iii wrote: > I am new to the DIY_EFI list and some what new to fuel injection. And was > wondering if someone tell me of some good books and literature to read on > > > Chuck Taylor > chtaylor@eng.usf.edu > *******************************'84 Kawasaki 900 Ninja > * University of South Florida * 7.21 @ 96.37 1/8th mile > * Mechanical Engineering Dept * 11.37 @ 117.27 1/4 mile > * (7 months and counting) *'80 Kawasaki Z1-R 1000 > ******************************* Restoration project Chuck - see you are restoring a Z1R - Excellent - are you gonna fuel inject it???? I gota GPZ1100B (Early model) with a turbo and efi - goes very well - up to 230hp @ 8500 RPM so far TTFN Tony 'All that power through 1 wheel!!!!' -- Sent By Tony Cooper. email: tony.cooper@virgin.net Allow at least 10 working minutes for reply. ;) From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 06:35:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA17038 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 06:35:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mbox.ualr.edu (mbox.ualr.edu [144.167.10.38]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA17034 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 06:35:29 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01IWPAAMYTG00000BN@UALR.EDU>; Wed, 6 May 1998 05:35:10 CDT Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 16:39:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: High MPG To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <473661.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -> Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and -> money was put into the development of a turbine engine (like the -> Chrysler one) as has been put into the engines we currently run, the -> "200 MPG carb" type idea would be a case of "so what!" In the case of -> the Chrysler turbine, it had a Chrysler spent tens of millions of dollars on their turbine, and two generations of Chrysler engineers tried to make it workable in a car. Rover, General Motors, and Fiat also poured pounds, dollars, and lira down the turbine drain. There are three problems with turbines. One is scale; smaller car-size turbines are less efficient than truck-size or airplane-size turbines. Another problem is problem is output; the turbine has a high speed output shaft with a relatively narrow RPM band. Various schemes of variable pitch blades, hydraulic couplings, and whatnot were used by the prototypes. The third problem is the turbine runs essentially wide open all the time. For a 200hp motor the efficiency would be acceptable; but throttling a turbine back to 25hp for cruise resulted in dramatic loss of efficiency compared to a conventional engine. Chrysler and Rover built driveable prototypes, but throttle response and fuel consumption were unacceptable. None of the advances in computer-aided design, metallurgy, or exotic materials have been enough to overcome the turbines' problems. Fiat and GM built turbine powered trucks for a while, but even scaled up to that size they were not able to beat the Diesels' lower cost. ==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? ====================================http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 08:22:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17816 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:22:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.enter.net (root@mail.enter.net [204.170.70.6]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17812 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:22:11 -0400 From: rbraun@mail.enter.net Received: from rbraun (m40atwn-3-18.enter.net [204.170.16.124]) by mail.enter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA28792 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:22:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805061222.IAA28792@mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:29:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: DFI: What is the latest version of Calmap software? Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Anyone know what Accel's deal is on updateing from 6.0? > >>What is the latest version of Calmap software? > > I believe that would be 6.32. > > bill > > > Randy Braun '77 C-10 pick-up, DFI-Tuned Port, 350 '82 Firebird, DFI, ZZ3 '91 GTA, Stock From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 09:14:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18385 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:14:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from webserver (brpt01-sh8-port203.snet.net [204.60.24.203]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18381 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:14:10 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAD00100; Wed, 06 May 1998 09:12:51 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:12:51 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805061312.JAD00100@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980506081432.007a1ea0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:14:32 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted In-Reply-To: <007301bd78a8$a5074d80$c618b1cf@Avonil.net.AvonIL.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I purchased a small digital handleld high impedence multi meter from >radio shack for 20 dollars last year. It is smaller than a pack of >cigarettes including the leads I have two of the old version of that meter - when instead of a rotary wheel it had only one button. I opened both units up, unsoldered and replaced the leads, with 2' leads with alligator clips on the end. Great for wiring harness troubleshooting. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 09:14:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18380 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:14:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from webserver (brpt01-sh8-port203.snet.net [204.60.24.203]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18375 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:14:06 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAC00100; Wed, 06 May 1998 09:12:48 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:12:48 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805061312.JAC00100@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980506081257.007ad8e0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:12:57 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted In-Reply-To: <199805060400.XAA26859@admin.inetport.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980505201643.007a83a0@xephic.dynip.com> <000d01bd7877$6053fc00$5c6e2299@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Aside from their durability, the one thing Fluke meters are noted for >is their very high accuracy, which cheaper meters generally can't >approach. When I used to be a physics student, I don't I cannot argue with that, while I haven't had it calibrated, it certainly seems accurate. However both my Radio Shack bench top model and the old fluke, at least on the voltage scale, display the same readings for the same voltage. I never tested the other scales. >accuracy is probably not worth the cost, and I would go for the Radio >Shack unit. True, maybe the cost differential on the accuracy is not the best argument - but the durability sure is. Being clumsey, I can appreciate how the fluke "bounces" rather than "dissintegrates". BTW, I have both meters... the bench unit I use in the garage and the Fluke goes out of the house - survives the toolbox. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 09:14:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18392 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:14:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18388 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:14:19 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA07145; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:14:14 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAE00100 for ; Wed, 06 May 1998 09:12:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:12:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805061312.JAE00100@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980506082330.007a3d90@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:23:30 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Coatings In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >I've done the ceramic coating at home as well, but I had trouble getting >my cylinder head into the oven, now you lot say you use toaster >ovens.... You Americans must have very big slices of bread... Its a "commercial" toaster oven - from a restaurant, able to toast many slices of bread simultaniously. I could easily put a pie in it. My Buick V6 heads don't quite fit however, even when diagonal. The heads will be taken to a friend of mine's house... she coated (different coating) her shorty headers in her oven, so since her oven's ruined, I might as well leach onto the heat source :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 09:15:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18402 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:15:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18398 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:15:07 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp5-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.54]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA19402 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:12:17 -0400 Message-ID: <35506319.2903@huron.net> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:18:17 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Boingers References: <01bd789a$2a1bbec0$58198fd1@nacelp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Plecan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Clare Snyder > Subject: Re: Boingers > > >I know a lot of endurance racers run 100:1 2 stroke gas/oil mixture in > >their Mazdas for this very reason. The engines smoke a bit, but do not > >wear out. > > 13A-B, or them 3 rotor jobs?, or all?. Got any clue as to HC/CO > levels at 100:1.. What block off the oil injection?. Then just > premix?. > Cheers > Bruce > >-- > > _/\_ > > --|-----([])-----|-- > > S 0/ \0 B > > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca The older RX7 and RX3 for sure - not sure of the later ones. I thought they did it along with the oil injection, but not sure - goes back a ways in the memory bank. Apparently with the thermal reactors the HCs were not too bad. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 09:26:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18681 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:26:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from uia.net (uia.net [157.22.213.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18677 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:26:05 -0400 Received: from tyan-machine (157.22.213.89) by uia.net with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0.1); Wed, 6 May 1998 06:26:37 -0700 From: "Robert Harris" To: Subject: RE: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 06:26:00 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <354F2D18.A227FABE@virgin.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Message-ID: <1317686495-34230248@uia.net> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu According to my Heywood and others, knock is a physical phenomena that is accompanied by acoustical noise, a high intensity optical flash, and a sharp increase in ionization. The gasses present both before and after ignition are essentially insulators ( that's why it takes 1000's of volts to fire the frigging plug ) and are relatively non conductive. Placing a low voltage on the plug - less than needed to overcome the gas resistance - will result in little current flow. IF an IONIZATION EVENT occurs, the conductance of the gasses will radically increase, causing current to flow in the circuit. This gross change in current can be interpreted as a knock event - whether it is measured as voltage or current makes little difference. Of course, I might be misremembering basic electricity that says if you hold the voltage constant, and the resistance decreases, current flow increases. They might have changes the laws of physics lately to be more fair to the lesser capable electrons. Next, with proper sophistication, much more can be determined from analyzing the effect of a low voltage signal applied across the spark gap and measuring the signal after ignition. These areas are of intense interest to virtually every engine manufacturer or racer. This includes as I understand it - cylinder pressure, fuel air mixtures, etc. The use of this data can result in significant advantages and as such is more closely guarded than Bill Clintons Bimbo phone list. For a simple DIY, determining the fact that an IONIZATION event has occurred suffices. This event of sharp increase in conductivity changes the current flow at the low voltage on the plug significantly. It is totally incapable of rendering most of the additional data that a wazoo guru could extract, but for those of us trying to get reliable knock detection on an engine that was never fitted with an acoustic detector or so radically modified that the fussy little shit no longer functions properly, being able to detect knock is a MAJOR ADVANCE. Sorry Mr. Cooper, if our silly ass understanding and plebeian purpose does not allow us to truly dissect the entrails that your more obvious sophistication and expectations does. > What can I say - this man obviously understands the principles of > ion CURRENT > measurement perfectly well - Bob, why don't you head the > development team as you > are such an expert!!!! From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 09:58:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19417 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:58:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from fxiod01.is.chrysler.com (firewall-user@fxiod01.is.chrysler.com [204.189.94.70]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19413 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:58:40 -0400 From: jb24@chrysler.com Received: by fxiod01.is.chrysler.com; id JAA00837; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:58:38 -0400 Received: from odnpspr2-nf0.oddc.chrysler.com(129.9.202.74) by fxiod01.is.chrysler.com via smap (3.2) id xma000635; Wed, 6 May 98 09:58:15 -0400 Received: from lngodd02.notes.chrysler.com (lngodd02.notes.chrysler.com [129.9.202.75]) by odnpspr2-nf0.oddc.chrysler.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/chrysler-relay.1.2-kcd) with SMTP id JAA19887 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:58:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lngodd02.notes.chrysler.com(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id 852565FC.004C921E ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:56:21 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CHRYSLER To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <852565FC.004CD353.00@lngodd02.notes.chrysler.com> Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:59:59 -0400 Subject: Re: High MPG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; Boundary="0__=x9x1UDdDdu6JFy4eSGMmp2i5iUFu2EhjCGwEiuVbhpQfcUmKiB1eonTz" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu --0__=x9x1UDdDdu6JFy4eSGMmp2i5iUFu2EhjCGwEiuVbhpQfcUmKiB1eonTz Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ---------------------- Forwarded by John R Bucknell/JTE/Chrysler on 05/06/98 09:57 AM --------------------------- From: John R Bucknell on 05/04/98 04:32 PM To: owner-diy_efi @ efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: Subject: Re: High MPG Believe it or not, the Chrysler Patriot project was shelved because it never got the output necessary to run LeMans. Don't know the particulars, but lots of screwball ideas were incorporated: Two-stage turbo-alternators with combustion chamber preheat, compressed (or was it liquid) natural gas fuel, super-duper flywheel energy storage, two-speed electric motor with regenerative braking and massive power switching module. On top of all that, pure water was used for cooling of motor and get this: was fluid used in turbine's journal bearings instead of oil. I got to see a presentation by the Patriot team about two years ago, all of two months before the project was cancelled. As to thermal efficiency, the limiting factor for turbines in cars is the temperature delta needed from intake to combustion. Airliners get away with it by running way up high where it's cold, but automotive uses would start from room temperature and the materials needed to run at the same temperature delta are super expensive. Reheat has been done with other methods than the Patriot (which basically had a sleeve around the combustion chamber where intake air flowed), namely a rotating ceramic grid that exhaust passed through and then that heat is carried around into the intake stream. Problem was sealing the exhaust gases away from the intake. But it did work, doubling fuel economy for of all things LeMans (1972?). Still was way underpowered with miserable throttle response. So reheat works for thermal efficiency, but not for output. ---------------------- Forwarded by John R Bucknell/JTE/Chrysler on 05/04/98 03:49 PM --------------------------- (Embedded image moved owner-diy_efi @ efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu to file: 05/04/98 02:47 PM PIC19279.PCX) Please respond to diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ SMTP To: diy_efi @ efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ SMTP cc: Subject: Re: High MPG Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and money was put into the development of a turbine engine (like the Chrysler one) as has been put into the engines we currently run, the "200 MPG carb" type idea would be a case of "so what!" In the case of the Chrysler turbine, it had a very ingeneous heat transfer drvice that recycled otherwise wasted heat from the exhaust to the intake, thereby making the engine more efficient (this is a bit more difficult with the IC engine to say the least - basically, it has to be stored as chemical potential energy within the fuel, and this can only be done by chemically altering the fuel with an endothermic reaction). The problem that I can see with the heat exchanger is that it didn't exchange enough of the exhaust heat. Obviously, if it exchanged more, with a greater efficiency, the engine would be more efficient - it's basic thermodynamics, and it's even given a name - "Regenerative cycle" ie. recycle waste heat energy to raise the efficiency of the engine. And guess what... It's easiest to do with some sort of turbine. Perhaps someone should revisit the old Chrisler engine and make the heat exchanger more efficient??? Danny Barrett. >>Something you mentioned: I know of Charles Nelson Pogue's "200 MPG carb." >>And I know about the chemistry of how it worked, and why its results were >>not very reliable (I know more about the chemistry of it than he did at the >>time - but this doesn't take much). Asside from this, Pogue stated in an > >Unfortunately, these kind of devices and technology are basically bandaids >to a much greater problem, one of great inefficiency. A pushrod engine is >about as ineffecient as an engine can get, however it does have its merits. > I think once engineers start moving away from a 100 year old design, >things will definately get better mileage wise. I don't have the URLs >handy, however there are two such engines that have strayed away from >pushrods, but replacing the rotating assembly with a giant Cam. The cam, >instead of controlling valve timing, is driven by the pistons, which are >configured in a radial fashion. The one engine that is running (and in the >internet), creates very little horsepower, however the torque it generates >phenominal as compared to its weight, size, and configuration. > >I think pushrod engines waste something in the neighborhood of 80% of the >available power in the gasoline. > > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport, CT 06606 > >Homebrew Automotive Website: >http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HMMWV >2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > >- > > --0__=x9x1UDdDdu6JFy4eSGMmp2i5iUFu2EhjCGwEiuVbhpQfcUmKiB1eonTz Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="PIC19279.PCX" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 CgUBCAAAAABoACwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAABaQABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPH E8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sT zRPHE8MTwhPwEwzIBgzYE8wTxhPDE8IT7hPOBtcTzBPGE8MTE+wTwgbCBwbCEgbCEgbCEsUG1hPL E8YTwxMT6hMMwgYHwgLCAwISwgfEEsMCwwbVE8sTxRPDExPpE8MGAwcCBwMCwhLDB8ISwgISwgLD BtUTyhPFE8MTE+gTwgIHA8ICEw4DDgLDE8USwwLCEMIG1BPKE8UTwxMT5xMCAwcDAg4TDgITwgIS D8ISD8ISBRICEcICwwbUE8oTxRPCExPmEwYCBwMCDgIOwgLDExITEhPCEg8GxgLDBtMMDAfJE8QT whMT5hMGwwITBgMCDhLFEw8SE8ISBgIDwhIDEsMGB9MDxwwHxRPDExPlEwYHAhESAg8CwhMPwhMP xBMPxRIQwgIDAgMCBtMDxwPEDAfDE8IT4RMHwwzCBgLCEhMCDxLIE8MSD8MSwwIQAwIDBgfSDMkD wgPCDAfCExPbEwfGDMIDDAIHERITEhMSwxMPwxMPwxPDEgIDAgMCwwMCBgzREwfHDMYDDMITE9YT B8UMyAMGB8ICBhLDAsYTEhMSExIPwhIHAgcCAwUQAgYRBgfSE8UTB8QMwgMMwhMT0hMHxAzLA8IM BsISDxESExITAw4DxBMSExITwxICBwPCAsMDDMIGB9ITyRMHwwzCExPPEwfDDMkDxQwHwhMGBxIT AhECEwMOAg7DExITDxMPwxIDAgMCBwMCDAYRBgfSE8kTwhPCDMITE8wTB8MMxwPEDMIHxxMGxBLD Ag4DDgIGwg/IEgIDwgIDAgwCEMIGB9ITyRMHDAcMwhMTyhMHwgzGA8MMwgfMEwYHwhLCEAIOAg4C DhDDAhIPxhIFAgXDAgUCEQYH0hPHEwfCDAcPDMITE8gTB8IMxQPDDAfQEwbDEhDEAhAOEA4QwgLG EgcSBhIGBcMCBcIGB9ATB8UMEwfCDA8HDwwHwhMTxhMHwgzEA8MMB9MTBgfCEhADEMICDhAOEMIC EQIDxxIGBwbCAgUCEQYHyxMHxAwHwhMHEwzCEwcPBw8MB8MTE8UTBwzEA8IMB9YTBsQSEAMCA8UC EQIDAgPDEgcSBgfCBgUQAhDCBgfGEwfEDAfGE8INEwzCEw8HwgwHwxPCE8QTBwzDA8IMB9gTBgfE EhACEMYCEQIDAsQSBhLDBsICEALCBgfCEwfDDAfKEwfCDRMHwhPCDAfEE8ITE8MTBwzCA8IMB9oT DBIHwxLDDBEDxQIDAgPDEgYSBgfCBgIQAhAGDAfCEwzDE8MHyRMHwhPCBxMHxRPDExPDEwzCAwwH 3RMGxxICEQPDAgMCA8MSBhIGBwYMBhACEAIGDMMTDBPCB8YTwwfHEwfGE8MTwhPDEwwDDAfeEwYH xxICEQPDAgMCwhIGEgYHBgwGEAIQAsIGB8MTDMYTwwfKEwzGE8MTwhPDE8IMB98TDBLCB8USAgMR xAISB8ISBgcGDAYQBhAGEAYMB8MMB8kTwwfHEwzGE8MTwhPDEwwPwgzfEwYSB8ISB8ISAhECAwID EgcSBwYHBgwGEAYQxgzDD8IHxRPDB8kTBwzGE8MTwhPDEwzDD8QM3BPCBhIGwxIGAhECAwIHBgcG yAzJDxMHzRMHwwwHxxPDE8ITwxMHDMYPxwwH1BMGEgYSBhLLDM4PwwwTDMcTwgfEDAfJE8QTwhMT xBMHwgzLD9sM0w/GDAfDEwzDEwfEDAfLE8YTwxMTxhMHxAztD8gMBgfIE8QMB84TxxPDE8ITyhMH xwzbD8sMEAUMBcIMwgYH1RPKE8UTwxMT0RMH2wwGEAYQBhACBQwFDAUMBgwHBgfWE8sTxRPDExPu EwYMBhAGEAIGDAYMwwYH1xPLE8YTwxMT8BPKBgfYE8wTxhPDExP1E9sTzRPHE8MTwhP1E9sTzRPH E8MTwhMMAAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD/ /wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8A AAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A //8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAA AP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA /wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCk gICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vw oKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzApsrw //vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDAwNzA psrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICAwMDA wNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACAAICA wMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACAgACA AICAwMDAwNzApsrw//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP//////AAAAgAAAAIAAgIAAAACA gACA//vwoKCkgICA/wAAAP8A//8AAAD//wD/AP////// --0__=x9x1UDdDdu6JFy4eSGMmp2i5iUFu2EhjCGwEiuVbhpQfcUmKiB1eonTz-- From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 10:01:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19508 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:01:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [207.25.206.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19504 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:01:34 -0400 Received: from dilbert (pix-241.nordson.com [207.206.59.241]) by users.qual.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/CICnet/IAG) with SMTP id KAA02336 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:03:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <011c01bd78f6$fe826bd0$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> From: "Gary Derian" To: Subject: Re: Boingers Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:57:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The race car guys don't use the oil metering pump, just the 100:1 premix with 2 stroke oil. Castor oil or a good racing 2 stroke synthetic is the ticket. Its more reliable that way. Also, the metering pump works like a 2 stroke meter, the oil volume is proportional to the throttle. When the throttle is lifted at high rpm, there is not enough oil injected. Gary Derian >From: Clare Snyder > >>I know a lot of endurance racers run 100:1 2 stroke gas/oil mixture in >>their Mazdas for this very reason. The engines smoke a bit, but do not >>wear out. > >13A-B, or them 3 rotor jobs?, or all?. Got any clue as to HC/CO >levels at 100:1.. What block off the oil injection?. Then just >premix?. >Cheers >Bruce From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 10:12:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19748 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:12:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from smtp1.us.dell.com (smtp1.us.dell.com [143.166.224.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19744 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:12:42 -0400 Received: from ccmail2.dell.com (ccmail2.us.dell.com [143.166.233.35]) by smtp1.us.dell.com (8.8.5/DELL-INET-10-14-1997) with SMTP id IAA14514 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:12:20 -0600 (GMT) Received: by ccmail2.dell.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA29999; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:12:03 -0500 Date: 6 May 98 09:11 CDT X400-Trace: us*attmail*dell computer; Arrival 6 May 98 09:11 CDT Action: Relayed Priority: normal P1-Message-Id: us*attmail*dell computer;0894463880/1356518974/1 Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text P1-Recipients: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Terry Sare To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-Id: <@m400gw.dell.com> Subject: RE: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I used a Fluke 8060A ($325) at home for 15 years till the A/D went belly up. Bought a 29.95 from the local electronic store the other day and it had all sorts of options. Accurate enough for the house. For work, I bought Tektronics DVM -- they speced better than the Fluke and were cheaper (umm, bought 25k worth of equipment at the same time so got a good discount :-) ) Overall, the accuracy of DVMs is good enough that a cheapy will do for home use. However, they won't survive the abuse the high dollar ones will. And no, of course I have never, ever misconnected a meter, no, never! :-) Terry Sare PS: Just switched to outlook -- please tell me if this has the MS crap attached! -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-owner@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu at dell_unix Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 9:12 AM To: Sare, Terry; diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu at dell_unix Subject: RE: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted >Aside from their durability, the one thing Fluke meters are noted for >is their very high accuracy, which cheaper meters generally can't >approach. When I used to be a physics student, I don't I cannot argue with that, while I haven't had it calibrated, it certainly seems accurate. However both my Radio Shack bench top model and the old fluke, at least on the voltage scale, display the same readings for the same voltage. I never tested the other scales. >accuracy is probably not worth the cost, and I would go for the Radio >Shack unit. True, maybe the cost differential on the accuracy is not the best argument - but the durability sure is. Being clumsey, I can appreciate how the fluke "bounces" rather than "dissintegrates". BTW, I have both meters... the bench unit I use in the garage and the Fluke goes out of the house - survives the toolbox. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 10:34:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20323 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:34:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20319 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:34:09 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp21-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.70]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA22228 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:31:20 -0400 Message-ID: <3550759C.2F22@huron.net> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:37:16 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Coatings References: <3.0.5.32.19980506082330.007a3d90@xephic.dynip.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > >I've done the ceramic coating at home as well, but I had trouble getting > >my cylinder head into the oven, now you lot say you use toaster > >ovens.... You Americans must have very big slices of bread... > > Its a "commercial" toaster oven - from a restaurant, able to toast many > slices of bread simultaniously. I could easily put a pie in it. My Buick > V6 heads don't quite fit however, even when diagonal. > > The heads will be taken to a friend of mine's house... she coated > (different coating) her shorty headers in her oven, so since her oven's > ruined, I might as well leach onto the heat source :) > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > Homebrew Automotive Website: > http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HMMWV > 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car > > - Ya need a toster oven for "texas toast" -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 10:37:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20416 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:37:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20411 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:37:36 -0400 Received: from bernie (defiant.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.109]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA20031 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:42:14 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980507003719.007a2b00@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 00:37:19 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: re: Water injection and racing & more In-Reply-To: <199805060544.BAA06140@soleil.acomp.usf.edu> References: <199805060232.WAA23576@web02.globecomm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 01:49 6/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >if i want to Race in an Naturally Aspirated class, is water injection considered a >form of aspiration like Turbo, Super chargers, or NOS? >--Jake Lindeke >--SOGI South-East Chapter Coordinator >--http://sesogi.bsfh.org No, there are set formula for working out the "effective" capacity of forced induction engine in any racing class... eg trubo engines are considered to have a capacity 1.7 x the capacity of the engine no formula exists for water injection, and it is not often used. I would think there would be good reason for this too :) I pit for an EH Holden Appendix J race car (amongst other things) and this car is limited to only drum brakes all around, And cooling ducts alone were not enough. After taking notice at truck racing events we decided that water injection directly onto the brake drums was the go, and it has proven to be. I would have rather injected through a fine spraying garden fitting etc, at the opening of the air duct, so that the water would be vaporised by the time it actually got to the drum/lining, and would rather cool the air onto the brakes a little more. any way, at the moment the driver has to manually push a switch mounted on the steering wheel to get the water to squirt. I had the idea of a simple timer that would count the time the brake pedal was depressed for, and after letting off the brake squirt the water for this same amount of time. ie. the driver brakes for 3 seconds... the water then squirts for 3 seconds would any one be able to design a circuit like this, or have one that might do the job? your help would be greatly appreciated :) From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 10:40:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20472 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:40:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20468 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:40:20 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yX5Pz-0001WBC; Wed, 6 May 98 10:43 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Fuel Injection Design To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:43:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: from "Charles Taylor-iii" at May 6, 98 00:48:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I do have a dyno result for the bike, and the results are at the rear > wheel so it would account for losses. The run I have is not the greatest no these results include the losses but the torque peak should be at the same approx RPM because you are using rear wheel figures add about 10% to the low end and 25% to the high end on the airflow calcs ( should be a curve with slighly log type increasing slope at the high end (rotational losses are not linear they increase logrithmically with RPM) > run it was taking when I was working out the bugs in the bike, will redo > here shortly. Max torque occurred at 6800 RPM with 55.2 ft-lbs, bike > redlines at 10500. You say that VE(I assume this is volumetric > efficiency) should be around 110% to 120%, book I have says around 75% for > a stock motorcycle engine in good condition. I am using a stock engine > and assuming good condition. I am not completely sure if I understand how > you say to get the air consumption curve. the 75% is for a very stock type blah type engine a stock 900 cc bike that redlines at 10.5 K is not a stock bike you may find the real VE numbers by asking someone who has done a lot of tuning on these for a stock racing class on your bike I would use 110% for VE, it is a pretty wild ride stock and if you guess to large you will be too rich (ok) instead of too lean (melt parts) > You say: > "multiply the RPM x air comsumed at RPM x VE at RPM x frictional loss > correction to get an air comsuption curve" > Since I have the torque curve then I should multiply > (RPM)(Volume one cylinder)(VE) Where VE would be the torque at that RPM > but in percent form?? > > So at the 6800 RPM from my dyno run I would have this for 908cc engine: > (6800)(227cc)(.552)=852067cc/min 6800x227x1.1 = 1697960 cc/min ~ 170l /min then plt this result against the loss curve (say 15% at this RPM) so you need an addtional 17.6% (1/.85) or about 200 l/min > And then for each point along the torque curve do the same thing?? And yes > this will give me an air consumption curve. exactly > Am I on the right track? pretty close > Or do I use the torque curve and say that the max of the curve is what I > say the Max VE is and then slice it into parts and compare it against the > RPM. This way the air consumtion at 6800 RPM would be(assuming VEmax=75): > (6800)(227cc)(.75)=1157700cc/min > Then at each RPM spot I would chose what the VE would be according to the > VEmax being 75. yes but the VE max will be close to 110% see above slice the curve up in 100 RPM increments this will give you ~100 useful points once you have the airflow curve you can calculate the fuel curve to suit > Appreciate the help. Don't spam me too hard I am trying to learn this > stuff but have yet to find the books that explain a lot of what I need. > Thanks Clive From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 10:48:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20729 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:48:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20724 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:48:31 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD7905.F1354740@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:45:06 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:44:58 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 22 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu They might have change the laws of physics lately to be more fair to the lesser capable electrons. Ah! You have found this out. Apparently due to all the electronic circuitry that there is now in use both in this and other Solar systems ( watch the skies kids ), a new set of cheaper electrons had to be made available, these are the type that are found in those Chinese batteries that you seem to find at low cost. Of course due to the typical lack of planning that our worlds Governments always have, the cheap and low quality electrons have spilled out and now have mixed with the standard ISO 9099 type electrons, which means that occasionally you get 'lumps' of crap electrons. This is why circuits stop working, computers crash, and my alarm clock is too quiet in the mornings. I hope that I have been help and have cleared up any problems, for further reading try: "The Shite Electron Phenomina" by Oxford University Press. Or the pamphlet "Damn Cheap filthy Commie Electricity" Which is distributed by a Militia near you. Rob Humphris Keeper of the Cone Shaped Electron From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 11:04:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21180 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:04:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.lig.bellsouth.net (mail.lig.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.50]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21176 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:04:38 -0400 Received: from zippy (host-209-214-178-19.chs.bellsouth.net [209.214.178.19]) by mail.lig.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA14150 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:04:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "M&D" <91coupe@bellsouth.net> To: Subject: Re: Boingers Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:10:25 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7901$193d0700$0100007f@zippy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu You can block off the oil injection and premix, use a small efi pump and 2-cycle oil to feed a relocated oil metering pump, whatever. Racing rotaries go to extremes and therefore their engineering solutions can be extreme too. This really screws up the emissions on a street car, and can clog your cat converter. The stock cats are very prone to clogging anyway, and restrictive. That's why you can see almost 40% power increase just from upgrading the exhaust. BTW, I have a combined total of 400,000 miles on 3 rotary engines and have never had carbon fouling problems, at least that I could see with a borescope. To the person claiming no significant performance or mileage benefit from a rotary: (with aftermarket exhaust) 225 HP at the flywheel, naturally aspirated, in 1.3 liters of displacement in a 2500 lb. car. 18-25 mpg depending on driving style. The mpg is similar to a V8, as is the power, but a 13B engine can be easily lifted by 2 men (about 300 lbs., with all the accessories still attached). That alone is a significant advantage over a V8. With attached turbo, rotaries are reliably running up to 400 hp on the street. Mileage remains similar. Can you say that for a 400HP piston engine? Mind you all, I have nothing against piston engines, it's just that they are WAY antiquated and it's time we come up with something else. I personally favor a small turbine running a generator, and thence electric motors. Like the APU from an airplane, but smaller. Piston engines have so much friction and reciprocating loss it's just unbelievable. Michael Harrington 91coupe@bellsouth.net and http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/downs/4038 91 RX-7 Coupe "Pearl" w/ some mods 88 RX-7 T2 "Beast" sitting in carport :( N3WJE Technician+ Ham -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 11:21 PM Subject: Re: Boingers > >-----Original Message----- >From: Clare Snyder >Subject: Re: Boingers > > > >>I know a lot of endurance racers run 100:1 2 stroke gas/oil mixture in >>their Mazdas for this very reason. The engines smoke a bit, but do not >>wear out. > >13A-B, or them 3 rotor jobs?, or all?. Got any clue as to HC/CO >levels at 100:1.. What block off the oil injection?. Then just >premix?. >Cheers >Bruce >>-- >> _/\_ >> --|-----([])-----|-- >> S 0/ \0 B >> Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 11:06:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21246 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:06:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.23]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21238 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:06:35 -0400 Received: by INET-03-IMC with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:06:36 -0700 Message-ID: From: Don Berry To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Coatings Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:06:33 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu One possible alternative is a outdoor barbecue. Some are quite large and will easily fit a cylinder head. Another source is your local powder coating source. They bake large objects all the time. Don < Frederic Breitwieser wrote> The heads will be taken to a friend of mine's house... she coated (different coating) her shorty headers in her oven, so since her oven's ruined, I might as well leach onto the heat source :) From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 11:06:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21249 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:06:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21244 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:06:36 -0400 Received: from mail3.microsoft.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id LAA07245; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:06:36 -0400 Received: by INET-03-IMC with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:06:36 -0700 Message-ID: From: Don Berry To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" , diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Coatings Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:06:33 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu One possible alternative is a outdoor barbecue. Some are quite large and will easily fit a cylinder head. Another source is your local powder coating source. They bake large objects all the time. Don < Frederic Breitwieser wrote> The heads will be taken to a friend of mine's house... she coated (different coating) her shorty headers in her oven, so since her oven's ruined, I might as well leach onto the heat source :) From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 11:40:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21924 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:40:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (vcc11.vcc.bc.ca [207.102.127.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21920 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:40:05 -0400 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id IAA34968; Wed, 6 May 1998 08:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:40:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Boingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 6 May 1998, Robert Humphris wrote: > > >I believe the British made an engine that did that. > Yea, Aero engines... 12 cylinders ( or more ) with the prop bolted onto > the cylinders, round and round they went, vroooom... all that air flow > over the casing kept it nice and cool. Not much use in a car though. > I must have missed that one in my searches...all the rotary engines I know of were single row radials with 7 cylinders. Any more info on the 12 cylinder [or more] item? Jim Davies From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 11:56:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22068 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:56:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from bert.acesag.auburn.edu (bert.acesag.auburn.edu [131.204.46.47]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22064 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:56:12 -0400 Received: from bert (bert [131.204.46.47]) by bert.acesag.auburn.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27622 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:56:10 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:56:09 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gregory A. Parmer" X-Sender: gparmer@bert To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Coatings In-Reply-To: <3550759C.2F22@huron.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If you have a friend who does pottery you might ask to use their kiln (sp?). They're plenty large enough and probably capable of 400F too...with a bit to spare. :) Just a thought, -greg From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 11:57:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22083 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:57:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imes.com ([209.184.4.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22079 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:57:35 -0400 Received: from elvis by imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA28088; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:59:42 -0500 Message-ID: <35503F34.5297@imes.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:45:08 +0000 From: steve ravet Organization: International Meta Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted References: <000d01bd7877$6053fc00$5c6e2299@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu David wrote: > > The current Radio Shack sale flyer has two Digital Multimeters listed. > > The first is model 22-174ue for $ 69.99 > > It features are True RMS. Can be used to check temperature F or C. True > RMS for accurate AC readings. Measures frequencies up to 2MHz, capacitance, > transistor gain, even shown NPN/PNP polarity and E-B-C pinout on display. > Autoranging. Includes temperature probe. > > The second model is $ 44.99 (after $ 5.00 coupon in flyer). Model 22-178ue. > > It features autoranging, continuous buzzer, 20 amp AC and DC ranges. Diode > check. > > Both run on two AA batteries. > > I am not well versed on this stuff. I believe you need a digital multimeter > to measure a lot of the EFI stuff. I have a Radio shack DMM, I'm not sure what the model number is. I'd recommend the first model. Either would probably work for diagnosing car type work, but if you plan on building any circuits like the 332 project, or even the EGO or ION projects on this list you'll appreciate the frequency measurement and capacitor measurement. Temp probe, well, that probably has a use also. --steve -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve@imes.com From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 12:16:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22470 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:16:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (vcc11.vcc.bc.ca [207.102.127.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22466 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:16:05 -0400 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id JAA49100; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:16:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 6 May 1998, Robert Humphris wrote: > > They might have change the laws of physics lately to be more fair to the > lesser capable > electrons. > > Ah! You have found this out. Apparently due to all the electronic > circuitry that there is now in use both in this and other Solar systems > ( watch the skies kids ), a new set of cheaper electrons had to be made > available, these are the type that are found in those Chinese batteries > that you seem to find at low cost. Of course due to the typical lack of > planning that our worlds Governments always have, the cheap and low > quality electrons have spilled out and now have mixed with the standard > ISO 9099 type electrons, which means that occasionally you get 'lumps' > of crap electrons. This is why circuits stop working, computers crash, > and my alarm clock is too quiet in the mornings. > This could be the JCWhitney effect. I notice they sell a magnetic clip-on fuel conditioner for your car, guaranteed not to rust, bust or grow hair. Now, many "legitimate" sources for such devices exist of course, but what is truly wonderful about the JCWhitney version is that they have *discovered* that fuel molecules clump together and by seperating them oxygen will be able to reach them in the cylinder, with many wondrous benefits. I will order one just as soon as my horoscope is favorible... Kim Davies From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 12:30:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22653 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:30:41 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov (eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.18.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22648 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:30:38 -0400 From: ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV Received: from mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV (mashtun.jpl.nasa.gov [137.79.61.170]) by eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA11123 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV (5.x/SMI-SVR4+DXRs2.3+GKEs1.0) id AA04459; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:34:50 -0700 Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:34:50 -0700 Message-Id: <9805061634.AA04459@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV> To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Have you ever seen what happens when a catalytic cracker lets go? The explosion is horrific. We had a refiner explosion in the San pedro area of socal a few years ago and it broke windows for miles. And you want one in your back seat! Nutty paul timmerman From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 12:55:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23252 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:55:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23247 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:55:15 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA12677 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:55:14 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:56:00 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35c895fb.147279296@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id MAA23248 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 6 May 1998 15:44:58 +0100, Robert Humphris wrote: >Rob Humphris Keeper of the Cone Shaped Electron Oh, no; there goes the neighborhood. B) Gar From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 13:02:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23333 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:02:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [207.25.206.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23326 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:02:25 -0400 Received: from dilbert (pix-241.nordson.com [207.206.59.241]) by users.qual.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/CICnet/IAG) with SMTP id NAA15330 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:04:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <02ef01bd7910$40659a40$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> From: "Gary Derian" To: Subject: Re: Boingers Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:58:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I know there are twin row 18 cyl radial engines. Gary Derian >> >I believe the British made an engine that did that. >> Yea, Aero engines... 12 cylinders ( or more ) with the prop bolted onto >> the cylinders, round and round they went, vroooom... all that air flow >> over the casing kept it nice and cool. Not much use in a car though. >> > >I must have missed that one in my searches...all the rotary engines I know >of were single row radials with 7 cylinders. Any more info on the 12 >cylinder [or more] item? > >Jim Davies > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 13:09:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23504 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:09:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23496 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:09:04 -0400 Received: from (myth.demon.co.uk) [158.152.20.217] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yX7gc-0000eH-00; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:08:54 +0100 Message-ID: <3550966F.2CAA@myth.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 17:57:19 +0100 From: Mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Digital Multimeter suggestion wanted References: <000d01bd7877$6053fc00$5c6e2299@default> <199805060400.XAA26859@admin.inetport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Zack wrote: > Aside from their durability, the one thing Fluke meters are noted for > is their very high accuracy, which cheaper meters generally can't > approach. When I used to be a physics student, I don't > think I saw anything -but- Fluke in use around labs, High accuracy stuff is usually Hewlett Packard over here, but Flukes are excellent, they just get on and do their job. I've used verious ones for a decade or so with few (if any problems) but then, I have used a cheap (no-name) one for about the same, with the only problems being the test leads. As for the $20 one- buy it, if it doesn't do what you want then you haven't wasted a fortune and you will know more about how to use a DMM. Mike. From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 13:09:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23503 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:09:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23495 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:08:57 -0400 Received: from (myth.demon.co.uk) [158.152.20.217] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yX7gX-0000dk-00; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:08:51 +0100 Message-ID: <35507C54.1255@myth.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 16:05:56 +0100 From: Mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V3 #193 References: <199805060436.OAA14386@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Danny Barrett wrote: > > Already done - The Nisan GTR, affectionately known as "GODZILLA" in Australia... > > >For you performance car fans, the computer could use the steering wheel > >position, acceleration sensors, etc. to determine how much torque to put > >to each wheel for ideal traction when cornering. The new BMWs have it too (ESC-Electronic Stability Control), and the bigger Mercs (the A Series also have it now...) have something called ESP. I like my rear wheel bias 4WD (Ford) Sierra though, very difficult to get out of shape but still power-driftable if you know what you are doing. Mike From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 13:11:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23534 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:11:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23530 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:10:59 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA13419 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:10:58 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:11:44 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35c996b4.147464437@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <1317686495-34230248@uia.net> In-Reply-To: <1317686495-34230248@uia.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id NAA23531 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 6 May 1998 06:26:00 -0700, "Robert Harris" wrote: >According to my Heywood and others, knock is a physical phenomena that is >accompanied by acoustical noise, a high intensity optical flash, and a sharp >increase in ionization. Don't forget also the possible impulse debits to you bank account! >Next, with proper sophistication, much more can be determined from analyzing >the effect of a low voltage signal applied across the spark gap and >measuring the signal after ignition. These areas are of intense interest >to virtually every engine manufacturer or racer. This includes as I >understand it - cylinder pressure, fuel air mixtures, etc. The use of this >data can result in significant advantages and as such is more closely >guarded than Bill Clintons Bimbo phone list. Actually, I have another theory, as EGOR is my witness; I think the stuff isn't kept all that secret, so much as it IS patented usually, so anyone trying to make immediate commercial use of it is stymied for a time. Other than outright laziness and lack of greed on the part of aftermarket mfgs (the former I *might* believe, but not the latter B), I see no other explanation for the fact that the 5-wire sensor and circuitry has been pretty available in both the SAE papers from NTK and the cars from HONDA. I'll bet we're gonna find the same thang is true with ION, and that for us DIYers with no major cash cow involved in the hunt, it's a veritable gold mine of opportunities for good clean fun (well, maybe not so clean). >Sorry Mr. Cooper, if our silly ass understanding and plebeian purpose does >not allow us to truly dissect the entrails that your more obvious >sophistication and expectations does. Hey, lemme get real serious for a moment and suggest you two knock this off pronto. I dunno what personal things are detonating between the two of you, and it isn't my business, and you're entitled to not care for each other; I understand real well everybody can't love everybody else, so I'm not askin nor expecting that. BUT please keep your fisticuffs outta ION's face, OK? Any more of these kinda potshots tacked onto an otherwise useful post, and yous guys are gonna get on my shit list real fast [yeah yeah, I know, 'be still my beating heart']. A toothless threat no doubt, but since yous guys are obviously mature, I can see you're not open to "incentives" and offers of candy to play nice. Hence, the growl. Nough said, OK? Let's rejoin the fun stuff already in progress, PULLEAZE. Remember, ION's a lady; so gentlemen, I know you'll wanna take it outside. Gar From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 13:23:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23741 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:23:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23736 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:23:22 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA13927 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:23:22 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:24:08 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35cc9b8a.148702625@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <1317686495-34230248@uia.net> <35c996b4.147464437@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> In-Reply-To: <35c996b4.147464437@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id NAA23738 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 06 May 1998 10:11:44 -0700, garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: >Other than outright laziness and lack of greed on the part of >aftermarket mfgs (the former I *might* believe, but not the latter B), I >see no other explanation for the fact that the 5-wire sensor and >circuitry has been pretty available in both the SAE papers from NTK and >the cars from HONDA. I'll bet we're gonna find the same thang is true >with ION, and that for us DIYers with no major cash cow involved in the >hunt, it's a veritable gold mine of opportunities for good clean fun RATS, I left out one key phrase and ruined the dramatic element considerably. Lemme rewrite one sentence above to make the point I intended. "the 5-wire sensor and cicuitry has been pretty available in both SAE papers from NTK and the cars from Honda FOR MANY YEARS". The Ionization papers and car stuff has also been around from Saab for nearly a DECADE!! Dudes, this isn't NEW stuff, nor a well-kept secret, was my theory/point. Gar From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 13:41:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24144 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:41:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24138 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:41:25 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-9.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.78]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id NAA25128 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:40:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Whattza Holden?. Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:41:53 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7916$41f72800$4e198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu For the unlucky blokes that can't get em (usa), have a look at http://www.thrasher-ep.com they are a neat car. Are these the ones the 808 ecm is used in the SS, and SHV (?). Is that engine the same inside as our (USA) small block chevy?. Public Service Announcement: Cone Shaped Hat HQ is also one step closer to being able to dim the neighborhood lights by bench racing ecms. No worries here!! Bruce From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 13:59:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24611 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:59:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24605 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:59:29 -0400 Received: from emerald.tufts.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id NAA07400; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:59:30 -0400 Received: from tufts.edu (st1254.tc.tufts.edu) by emerald.tufts.edu (PMDF V5.1-10 #23568) with ESMTP id <0ESJ001FAR82I4@emerald.tufts.edu> for diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:57:17 -0400 From: Andris Skulte Subject: turbos, VE's etc... To: DIY_EFI Message-id: <3550A47D.CC35A33A@tufts.edu> X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I'm pretty close to putting the turbos onto the Camaro. I do have some fuel/timing curves for the DFI, but they are all supercharged. How do you figure out the VE of a turbo engine? I've got dyno and airflow charts of the camaro when it was naturally aspirated, and figured out a VE that way, but wouldn't adding a turbo skew the graph instead of just raising it by the pressure ratio? Another question is about the downpipe sizing. I'm running twin T04E .58AR turbos on a smallblock chevy. I plan on having 450 hp right off the bat, and eventually up to 700 hp. I've heard different theories on downpipe design. One was that you should increase the diameter right after the turbo, to stop the spinning, and then make your 90 degree turn. Someone mentioned that the spiraling exhasut gasses creat much more backpressure in a bend than straight flowing gasses. Space is pretty tight under the hood of the camaro, and the smaller diameter I can safely (efficiently use) the better. The turbo outlet has a 3" opening, and I was planning on using 2.25 or 2.5" pipes max. Is this concept a big deal, or can I just neck it down right outside the turbos? Thanks for the insights! Andris PS-I checked the archives, but there wasn't anything listed for the exhasut... From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 14:04:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24740 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:04:31 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov (eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.18.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24736 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:04:30 -0400 From: ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV Received: from mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV (mashtun.jpl.nasa.gov [137.79.61.170]) by eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA23762 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV (5.x/SMI-SVR4+DXRs2.3+GKEs1.0) id AA04539; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:08:42 -0700 Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:08:42 -0700 Message-Id: <9805061808.AA04539@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV> To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Engine Simulation SW X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone have any recommendations for software for engine performance simulation that includes turbos and intercoolers? hopefully not too expensive either... paul timmerman From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 14:05:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24752 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:05:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24748 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:04:59 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yX8c4-0001X0C; Wed, 6 May 98 14:08 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Boingers To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:08:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: from "Jim Davies" at May 6, 98 08:40:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > > >I believe the British made an engine that did that. > > Yea, Aero engines... 12 cylinders ( or more ) with the prop bolted onto > > the cylinders, round and round they went, vroooom... all that air flow > > over the casing kept it nice and cool. Not much use in a car though. > > I must have missed that one in my searches...all the rotary engines I know > of were single row radials with 7 cylinders. Any more info on the 12 > cylinder [or more] item? > > Jim Davies they cam with 5, 6, 7, 9 cyl in one row or 2 row models up to 18 cyl not all of these are rotaing block types most were rotating crank the bearing loads on a this amount of rataign mass were unbeleivable Clive > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 14:24:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25060 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:24:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25055 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:24:31 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yX8ux-0001X0C; Wed, 6 May 98 14:27 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Water injection and racing & more To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:27:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980507003719.007a2b00@mail.qonline.com.au> from "Matthew Harding" at May 7, 98 00:37:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > eg trubo engines are considered to have a capacity 1.7 x the capacity of > the engine and we all no that turbo engine can put out 1.7x what a NA model can ;) > not enough. After taking notice at truck racing events we decided that > water injection directly onto the brake drums was the go, and it has proven > to be. I would have rather injected through a fine spraying garden fitting > > any way, at the moment the driver has to manually push a switch mounted on > the steering wheel to get the water to squirt. I had the idea of a simple > timer that would count the time the brake pedal was depressed for, and > after letting off the brake squirt the water for this same amount of time. > ie. the driver brakes for 3 seconds... the water then squirts for 3 seconds defintely not a good idea it the driver brakes for say 30 sec for some reason ( sudden obstuction,i traffici pile up etc.) and you geta 30s squirt after there would probably be water running all over the tires, affecting traction better might be to use an IR sensor to measure berrake temp. placed just before the squirt zone, spray until the sensor say the temp is OK again no timer involved just a simple driver to fire the pump up > would any one be able to design a circuit like this, or have one that might > do the job? Clive ? From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 14:34:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25336 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:34:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25328 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:34:46 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-17.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.86]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id OAA11815 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:33:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: 747 meet 730, 730 meet 165 Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:35:15 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd791d$b633c320$56198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Has anyone any experience with running 2 ecms off the same inputs?. ie would they have enough "impedance" to share inputs? or would they do something strange?. The outputs would be loaded independently of each other, as far as driving any loads, it would all be run off a small motorcycle battery. Was just going to use some resistors (like 20 ohm for the injectors), and hook up a ignition module with a 20 dummy load on it also. If this is unknown ground can anyone give me a list of things that might go wrong. I can almost smell the smoke now Bruce Glad I scotch guarded all my Cone Shaped Hats the other day. From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 14:50:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25588 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:50:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from tmc6.astm.cmri.cmu.edu (TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.224.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25583 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:50:18 -0400 Received: by TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:51:15 -0400 Message-ID: <311B7EA14AAAD111B6AC0000C0E4A3CF0218BF@TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU> From: Michael Kasimirsky To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Water injection and racing & more Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:51:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [...details of watering brake drums deleted...] Well, I don't know what kind of racing you are doing, but most racing organizations would black flag you, and rightfully so, for spraying water where it can fall on the track. If this is dirt then just forget I mentioned anything, but spraying fluids on pavement creates a VERY dangerous situation for the competitors behind you. What this has to do with DIY-EFI I don't know, but I road race motorcycles and ideas like this scare the crap out of me. From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 14:57:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25846 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:57:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25842 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:57:42 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-17.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.86]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id OAA18991 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:56:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Engine Simulation SW Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:58:12 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7920$eaf23c60$56198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:51 PM Subject: Engine Simulation SW > Does anyone have any recommendations for software for >engine performance simulation that includes turbos and >intercoolers? hopefully not too expensive either... > >paul timmerman > Up until I trashed it when changing computers, had a program called Drag Strip Plus. Was from Martel Brothers down in Texas. Was well within a .1 and by fudging on converter slippage was dead on a NA car. Was less than $100, and had 3 levels of intercoolers, boost, allowed for sedan, fastback, body styles. Different tranny gearing. rear end gears, header diameters, etc. Bruce From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 15:22:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26418 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:22:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26414 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:22:03 -0400 Received: from pclab14.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab14.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.114]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA15360 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:22:01 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 05:22:01 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805061922.FAA15360@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: In car oil refinery, run by EFI. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Actually, under the bonnet (or hood if you're American)... >Have you ever seen what happens when a catalytic cracker >lets go? The explosion is horrific. We had a refiner >explosion in the San pedro area of socal a few years >ago and it broke windows for miles. And you want one in >your back seat! Nutty > >paul timmerman > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 15:27:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26591 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:27:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26586 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:27:19 -0400 Received: from pclab14.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab14.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.114]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA15799 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:27:18 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 05:27:18 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805061927.FAA15799@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V3 #193 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Actually, a man in South Australia has a home made device that he has in his GTR that allows him to CHANGE the bias of his car. He can get it to be rear bias, front bias, or none at all... Danny Barrett. >Danny Barrett wrote: >> >> Already done - The Nisan GTR, affectionately known as "GODZILLA" in Australia... >> >> >For you performance car fans, the computer could use the steering wheel >> >position, acceleration sensors, etc. to determine how much torque to put >> >to each wheel for ideal traction when cornering. > >The new BMWs have it too (ESC-Electronic Stability Control), and the >bigger Mercs (the A Series also have it now...) have something called >ESP. I like my rear wheel bias 4WD (Ford) Sierra though, very difficult >to get out of shape but still power-driftable if you know what you are >doing. > >Mike > > > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 15:31:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26701 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:31:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26695 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:31:51 -0400 Received: from pclab14.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab14.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.114]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA16140 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:31:50 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 05:31:50 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805061931.FAA16140@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Boingers X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu There was even a single bank 6cyl radial engine made in South Australia (inventive fellows these South Australians). Don't ask me how he got it to work... I can't figure it out. Obviously there's something funny going on with the spark... Anyway, the fellow powered a home made plane from it. The engine was found a few years ago, and restored, and put in a museum, from what I'm told. Just a bit of trivia... Danny Barrett. >I know there are twin row 18 cyl radial engines. >Gary Derian > >>> >I believe the British made an engine that did that. >>> Yea, Aero engines... 12 cylinders ( or more ) with the prop bolted onto >>> the cylinders, round and round they went, vroooom... all that air flow >>> over the casing kept it nice and cool. Not much use in a car though. >>> >> >>I must have missed that one in my searches...all the rotary engines I know >>of were single row radials with 7 cylinders. Any more info on the 12 >>cylinder [or more] item? >> >>Jim Davies >> > > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 15:33:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26737 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:33:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ihgw2.lucent.com (ihgw2.lucent.com [207.19.48.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26733 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:32:59 -0400 Received: from emsr1.emsr.lucent.com by ihig2.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id OAA23546; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:22:28 -0500 Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id PAA25225 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu.smtp; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:32:32 -0400 From: kenkelly@lucent.com Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id PAA25206 for efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:32:30 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Received: from lucent.com (kkk) by pace10.wh.lucent.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA14865; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:31:02 -0400 Message-Id: <3550B9B7.33F280C4@lucent.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 15:27:51 -0400 Original-From: Ken Kelly Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en]C-EMS-1.3.1 (WinNT; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 Original-To: efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi Subject: Re: Boingers References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I've only seen one radial that bolted the Crank to the firewall and mounted the prop to the cylinders. It was a Biplane from 1910 + or - 2 years. I actually saw it give a demo flight. The rotating cylinders required a very short exhaust pipe, and it really barked when it ran. If you want to see one it was at the rhienbech Airodrome in Rheinbech, NY. During the summer months they actually put on weekend shows where you can see WWI and earlier aircraft fly. Ken Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > > > > > > > >I believe the British made an engine that did that. > > > Yea, Aero engines... 12 cylinders ( or more ) with the prop bolted onto > > > the cylinders, round and round they went, vroooom... all that air flow > > > over the casing kept it nice and cool. Not much use in a car though. > > > > I must have missed that one in my searches...all the rotary engines I know > > of were single row radials with 7 cylinders. Any more info on the 12 > > cylinder [or more] item? > > > > Jim Davies > > they cam with 5, 6, 7, 9 cyl in one row > or 2 row models up to 18 cyl > not all of these are rotaing block types > most were rotating crank > > the bearing loads on a this amount of rataign mass were unbeleivable > > Clive > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 15:36:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26814 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:36:47 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26810 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:36:44 -0400 Received: from pclab14.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab14.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.114]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA16589 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:36:43 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 05:36:43 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805061936.FAA16589@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >From what I'm told, the Holden V8 is a completely Australian designed engine (but I could have been told a heap of crap...). As for the V6, I believe it is a Buick. However, with the "Ecotec" V6, it is basically loosely designed on the previous Buick re-hash, and not, in reality the same engine, although the cubic displacement is still nominally 3.8L. >For the unlucky blokes that can't get em (usa), have a look at >http://www.thrasher-ep.com >they are a neat car. Are these the ones the 808 ecm is used >in the SS, and SHV (?). Is that engine the same inside as >our (USA) small block chevy?. > >Public Service Announcement: > >Cone Shaped Hat HQ is also one step closer to being able >to dim the neighborhood lights by bench racing ecms. >No worries here!! >Bruce > > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 16:00:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27219 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:00:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27215 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:00:00 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-17.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.86]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id PAA11157 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:58:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: turbos, VE's etc... Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:00:26 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7929$9c956b60$56198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Andris Skulte To: DIY_EFI Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 3:05 PM Subject: turbos, VE's etc... >I'm pretty close to putting the turbos onto the Camaro. I do have some >fuel/timing curves for the DFI, but they are all supercharged. How do >you figure out the VE of a turbo engine? Nother point is turbos work off exhaust heat. Superchargers are mechanically linked to the engine. So there IMHO is gonna be alot more fugding to get it right. I'd lean toward the syclone stuff, and take a bunch of >bar timing out. Like I've said plugs are cheaper than ex valves. > >Another question is about the downpipe sizing. I'm running twin T04E >.58AR turbos on a smallblock chevy. I plan on having 450 hp right off >the bat, Try for 225 and you'll probably do less backtracking. What are you monitoring for tuning?. Personnaly never heard of too large of discharge pipes outta a turbo. Use small steps, low timing, rich, and low boost to start, and ease your way into things. Hurry this, and you'll find out what they mean by debit card. >Andris > Bruce From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 16:14:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27493 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27489 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:14:07 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yXAcz-0001XPC; Wed, 6 May 98 16:17 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Engine Simulation SW To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:17:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <9805061808.AA04539@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV> from "ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV" at May 6, 98 11:08:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > if anyone has something good with URLs post it or email me I am currently in the porcess of designing a web page resource for engine simulator software in general, with lainks to multiple internet resources, including free ware and demoware downloads Clive clive@problem.tantech.com > > > Does anyone have any recommendations for software for > engine performance simulation that includes turbos and > intercoolers? hopefully not too expensive either... > > paul timmerman From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 16:44:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA28231 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:44:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (vcc11.vcc.bc.ca [207.102.127.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28224 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:44:08 -0400 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id NAA50506; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:44:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Boingers In-Reply-To: <02ef01bd7910$40659a40$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 6 May 1998, Gary Derian wrote: > >I must have missed that one in my searches...all the rotary engines I know > >of were single row radials with 7 cylinders. Any more info on the 12 > >cylinder [or more] item? > > > I know there are twin row 18 cyl radial engines. rotary type? From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 16:47:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA28369 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:47:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28365 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:47:07 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yXB8x-0001WrC; Wed, 6 May 98 16:50 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: turbos, VE's etc... To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:50:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <3550A47D.CC35A33A@tufts.edu> from "Andris Skulte" at May 6, 98 01:57:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I'm pretty close to putting the turbos onto the Camaro. I do have some > fuel/timing curves for the DFI, but they are all supercharged. How do > you figure out the VE of a turbo engine? I've got dyno and airflow > charts of the camaro when it was naturally aspirated, and figured out a > VE that way, but wouldn't adding a turbo skew the graph instead of just > raising it by the pressure ratio? yes it will skew it also you will have higer pumping losses at higer boost levels because of the ability to flow in a port becoming restricted by desinty of the air if you have an estimated curve for the stock engine and multiply this by the PR you will be close, but you want to richen up slightly at the higer RPMs to prevent meltage boost comes as a squared function of impeller speed so the cruve will skew higher at the higher RPMs also since higer RPMs also mean more airflow it is closer to a cube function so for ex>: you have stock engine makes 10" vac 2000 rpm 8" 3000 6" 4000 4" 5000 2" 6000 you add a turbo and get these numbers 8" 2000 4" 3000 +4 4000 +12" 5000 +24" 6k so you have increased airflow by 6% 2000 13% 3000 33% 4000 53% 5000 80% 6000 so you need to add fuel to compensate for the extra air Note: this does not take into account any expansion caused by heating if your air temp jumps 150^ you will be actually reducing the numbers above by * .74 to get the air mass so you would add 4.5%, 10.5%, 24.5% 39.2% 59.2% which would be approx = to the power increase ie at 6000 RPM 24" =12lb boost = + 60% power almost like real world results you may want to go a little richer to protect parts and make a little more power 12.5-13:1 A/F is close to max power point also allows margins to prevent meltage of parts > Another question is about the downpipe sizing. I'm running twin T04E > .58AR turbos on a smallblock chevy. I plan on having 450 hp right off > the bat, and eventually up to 700 hp. I've heard different theories on > downpipe design. One was that you should increase the diameter right > after the turbo, to stop the spinning, and then make your 90 degree > turn. Someone mentioned that the spiraling exhasut gasses creat much > more backpressure in a bend than straight flowing gasses. Space is > pretty tight under the hood of the camaro, and the smaller diameter I > can safely (efficiently use) the better. The turbo outlet has a 3" > opening, and I was planning on using 2.25 or 2.5" pipes max. Is this > concept a big deal, or can I just neck it down right outside the turbos? > Thanks for the insights! you wont make 700 HP on 2.5" pipes you should stay with the 3" keep them straight for as long as possible you can put a grille type diffuser befroe the bend to reduce the spiralling something with 1cm boxes about 1cm deep would work OK and not cost too much airflow, maybe you can find a stainless grill from a florescent light fixture it will have to be sianless of ceramic if you want it to live in the temps involved Clive From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 16:55:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA28683 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:55:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (vcc11.vcc.bc.ca [207.102.127.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28679 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:55:21 -0400 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id NAA50044; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:55:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Boingers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 6 May 1998, Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > > > > > > >I believe the British made an engine that did that. > > > Yea, Aero engines... 12 cylinders ( or more ) with the prop bolted onto > > > the cylinders, round and round they went, vroooom... all that air flow > > > over the casing kept it nice and cool. Not much use in a car though. > > > > I must have missed that one in my searches...all the rotary engines I know > > of were single row radials with 7 cylinders. Any more info on the 12 > > cylinder [or more] item? > > > > Jim Davies > > > they cam with 5, 6, 7, 9 cyl in one row > or 2 row models up to 18 cyl > not all of these are rotaing block types > most were rotating crank > Who made the 2 row rotary? From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 17:09:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28945 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:09:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from wolfenet.com (root@frapp.wolfe.net [207.178.61.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28941 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:09:04 -0400 Received: from gonzo.wolfenet.com (orin@gonzo.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.2]) by wolfenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12495 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:08:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Orin Eman Received: (from orin@localhost) by gonzo.wolfenet.com (8.8.3/8.7) id OAA27000 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805062108.OAA27000@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Subject: Re: 747 meet 730, 730 meet 165 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:08:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <01bd791d$b633c320$56198fd1@nacelp> from "Bruce Plecan" at May 6, 98 02:35:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu It probably wouldn't work. Some sensors are fed thru a resistor from a voltage source (eg coolant). You would end up with half the source impedance which would affect the voltage at the sensor. For example, when the sensors resistance is the same as the source impedance, the voltage across it would be half that of the voltage source. Half the source impedance and now the voltage across the sensor would be 2/3 that of the source... quite an error. I wouldn't expect smoke from the ECU in this case tho'. Some digital inputs might be OK, but you would have to reverse engineer the input circuitry to be sure. For the resistor fed sensor, it wouldn't be too hard to make an op-amp plus transistor circuit to feed the second ECU. > Has anyone any experience with running 2 ecms off the same > inputs?. ie would they have enough "impedance" to share inputs? > or would they do something strange?. The outputs would be > loaded independently of each other, as far as driving any loads, > it would all be run off a small motorcycle battery. Was just > going to use some resistors (like 20 ohm for the injectors), > and hook up a ignition module with a 20 dummy load on it also. > If this is unknown ground can anyone give me a list of things > that might go wrong. > I can almost smell the smoke now > Bruce Glad I scotch guarded all my Cone Shaped Hats > the other day. From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 17:57:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA29642 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:57:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from f04n01.cac.psu.edu (f04a01.cac.psu.edu [146.186.15.26]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29635 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:57:19 -0400 Received: from pft101.rh.psu.edu (PFT101.rh.psu.edu [128.118.125.178]) by f04n01.cac.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA41910 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:56:30 -0400 Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:56:30 -0400 Message-Id: <199805062156.RAA41910@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> X-Sender: pft101@email.psu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Paul Tholey Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Where the h*ll can I get that K*ck *ss TPI intake in the Holdens? I am serious! Paul Tholey From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 18:10:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29844 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:10:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29838 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:10:34 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yXCRj-0001XQC; Wed, 6 May 98 18:13 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Boingers To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 18:13:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: from "Jim Davies" at May 6, 98 01:55:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > > > > > > > >I believe the British made an engine that did that. > > > > Yea, Aero engines... 12 cylinders ( or more ) with the prop bolted onto > > > > the cylinders, round and round they went, vroooom... all that air flow > > > > over the casing kept it nice and cool. Not much use in a car though. > > > > > > I must have missed that one in my searches...all the rotary engines I know > > > of were single row radials with 7 cylinders. Any more info on the 12 > > > cylinder [or more] item? > > > > they cam with 5, 6, 7, 9 cyl in one row > > or 2 row models up to 18 cyl > > not all of these are rotaing block types > > most were rotating crank > > > Who made the 2 row rotary? no Idea but I saw one in a book somewhere Clive From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 18:32:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA30069 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:32:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA30064 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:32:35 -0400 Received: from 205.215.232.29 (surf29.cruzers.com [205.215.232.29]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA28938 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3550F2A9.33B4@cruzers.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 15:30:59 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diy_efi Subject: Questions about EGOR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu What sort of power source does EGOR need (not counting the heater)? 12V? 5V? Both? How much current is needed at 5V? Putting this another way, is the current draw low enough to use an ECM's regulated 5V output meant for sensors (TPS & MAP)? Could EGOR use dual 5V supplies - one for internal circuitry, and one for the source of current sent to the O2 sensor? The idea is to protect against short circuits in external wiring. If the O2 harness gets mangled by a fan, or melted by a manifold, thus shorting all the wires to ground, the sensor supply can shut off. The internal supply can keep working, allowing an error code to be reported. Is EGOR's 0 to 5V signal output range a "natural" range? How much of a load can the output drive? It appears that GM ECM's often have an unused analog input with a 1000 ohm pullup to 5V. Can EGOR drive this? Can EGOR be designed with an output range of about 1 volt? This would allow EGOR to directly drive an ECM's existing O2 input(s). (It's a trivial matter to edit a PROM to handle a different O2 input voltage profile.) Alternately, does it make sense to monitor one of EGOR's O2 cells using an ECM's existing (differential input) O2 amp? How big will EGOR's circuit board be? I went to a library and looked up how Honda wires their "LAF" O2 sensor. This sensor is used only on the 49 state '92-'95+ Civic 1.5 VTEC. The California emissions version of the same car&engine gets a standard 4 wire heated O2 sensor. The pin-3 end of the calibration resistor is grounded. The pin-4 end of the resistor is driven from 0.3 to 4.9 volts by the ECM. The pin-2 end of the heater is grounded. The pin-1 end is driven from the ECM. This is different from all other Honda heated O2 sensors - which connect between "hot" and the ECM. Both types use the same ECM pin for the heater output. The trouble shooting flowchart implies that the heater is driven with 7 volts. (However, the flowchart never ends in a "no problems" box - the 7 volts might be a failure response.) Pin 8 (IP- and VS-, i.e. the cell common connection) is at 2.6 to 2.8 volts when the engine is running. Pin 7 (IP+) should be 0.4 volts. And pin 6 (VS+) should be greater than 5 volts. unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; Ludis Langens return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + ludis@cruzers.com (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 19:42:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA31133 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:42:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA31129 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:42:46 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp4-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.53]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA13273 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:39:09 -0400 Message-ID: <3550F614.79C7@huron.net> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 19:45:24 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. References: <199805061936.FAA16589@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Danny Barrett wrote: > > >From what I'm told, the Holden V8 is a completely Australian designed engine > (but I could have been told a heap of crap...). As for the V6, I believe it > is a Buick. However, with the "Ecotec" V6, it is basically loosely designed > on the previous Buick re-hash, and not, in reality the same engine, although > the cubic displacement is still nominally 3.8L. > > >For the unlucky blokes that can't get em (usa), have a look at > >http://www.thrasher-ep.com > >they are a neat car. Are these the ones the 808 ecm is used > >in the SS, and SHV (?). Is that engine the same inside as > >our (USA) small block chevy?. > > > >Public Service Announcement: > > > >Cone Shaped Hat HQ is also one step closer to being able > >to dim the neighborhood lights by bench racing ecms. > >No worries here!! > >Bruce > > > > > > Not sure of the new stuff, but a '72 premier, and Monaro had basically a chevy 265cu in small block. I have had the experience of working on both in a past life, and if it wasn't in a Holden car, I'd have sworn it was a '55 chevy. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 19:54:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA31188 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:54:03 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA31184 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:54:01 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (slip129-37-161-93.on.ca.ibm.net [129.37.161.93]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA13711 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:51:10 -0400 Message-ID: <3550F8F0.695E@huron.net> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 19:57:36 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: 747 meet 730, 730 meet 165 References: <199805062108.OAA27000@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Orin Eman wrote: > > It probably wouldn't work. Some sensors are fed thru a resistor from > a voltage source (eg coolant). You would end up with half the source > impedance which would affect the voltage at the sensor. > For example, when the sensors resistance is the same as the source impedance, > the voltage across it would be half that of the voltage source. > Half the source impedance and now the voltage across the sensor > would be 2/3 that of the source... quite an error. I wouldn't expect > smoke from the ECU in this case tho'. > > Some digital inputs might be OK, but you would have to reverse engineer > the input circuitry to be sure. > > For the resistor fed sensor, it wouldn't be too hard to make an > op-amp plus transistor circuit to feed the second ECU. > > > Has anyone any experience with running 2 ecms off the same > > inputs?. ie would they have enough "impedance" to share inputs? > > or would they do something strange?. The outputs would be > > loaded independently of each other, as far as driving any loads, > > it would all be run off a small motorcycle battery. Was just > > going to use some resistors (like 20 ohm for the injectors), > > and hook up a ignition module with a 20 dummy load on it also. > > If this is unknown ground can anyone give me a list of things > > that might go wrong. > > I can almost smell the smoke now > > Bruce Glad I scotch guarded all my Cone Shaped Hats > > the other day. Since most of the sensor inputs read VOLTAGE, not impedence or resistance, it would likely work. You may want to use the reference power from one ECU only, connecting ground and signal to both. If you arre using a maf that outputs a variable frequency, unless it is integrated as a voltage to read, it would be questionable. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 20:25:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA31584 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:25:57 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA31580 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:25:53 -0400 Received: from main (alaint@ppp27.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.48]) by mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA09245; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:23:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Alain Toussaint X-Sender: alaint@main To: Paul Tholey cc: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. In-Reply-To: <199805062156.RAA41910@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Where the h*ll can I get that K*ck *ss TPI intake in the Holdens? I am serious! > > Paul Tholey does this intake have anything special when compared to the GM one ?? Alain Toussaint From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 20:53:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA32001 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:53:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mbox.ualr.edu (mbox.ualr.edu [144.167.10.38]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA31997 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:53:39 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01IWQ49PPH4W0000BN@UALR.EDU>; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:53:25 CDT Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 16:42:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: RE: High MPG To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <474080.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -> I've done the ceramic coating at home as well, but I had trouble -> getting my cylinder head into the oven, now you lot say you use -> toaster ovens.... You Americans must have very big slices of -> bread... "Everything is bigger in Texas..." You can do the Tech Line ceramics in your household oven. They won't stink anything up. From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 20:54:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA32021 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:54:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mbox.ualr.edu (mbox.ualr.edu [144.167.10.38]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA32015 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:54:49 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01IWQ4B9DCEO0000BN@UALR.EDU>; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:54:40 CDT Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 17:16:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: High MPG To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <474354.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -> regenerative braking and massive power switching module. On top of -> all that, pure water was used for cooling of motor and get this: was -> fluid used in turbine's journal bearings instead of oil. Sure, water will work just fine. Take a look at a big hydroelectric turbine sometime; chances are it'll have water plumbed to sleeve bearings. Once the shaft is spinning any fluid will do - even air, which is often used in very high speed applications. Automobiles use oil-fed plain bearings primarily because they already *have* oil in the crankcase to lube the myriad things which require lubrication, so it makes sense to use oil. From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 21:35:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA32683 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:35:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA32679 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:35:57 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA5794 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 18:35:55 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Questions about EGOR Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 18:36:42 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35efecdb.169519296@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <3550F2A9.33B4@cruzers.com> In-Reply-To: <3550F2A9.33B4@cruzers.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id VAA32680 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 06 May 1998 15:30:59 -0800, Ludis Langens wrote: >What sort of power source does EGOR need (not counting the heater)? >12V? 5V? Both? Hey, Lulu. Lemme say a couple things about what Sandy and I have discussed so far about EGOR's "home", or the pc-board Sandy's gonna layout for us all. It will be his design discretion and call, of course, but my request to him was to make it a "module" that could be either plugged into a board (with suitable 0.1" headers/sockets) for those wanting to make "instruments" like meters, dataloggers, etc. and ALSO could be soldered onto/into thru holes in a larger board, for those making engine managers (where vibration won't allow insertion force connections to be reliably used). Since most all the devices, excepting the idea I mention below, can be had in surface mount, the entire EGOR board is likely gonna fit in something WAY shorter than a 40-pin 0.6" DIP. Yep, you heard me right, it's that small. I haven't discussed these niceties with Sandy yet, partly cuz he's an old hand at this already (grey hairs, maybe?), but if the 5V regulator is left as a thru-hole device, then if you didn't have 12V available, you could leave the regulator out, treat the regulator pin that would normally source the 5V as another module pin, and so you can use either 12v or 5v. My own preference would be that you'd use 12v and this regulator, cuz the regulator spec'd in the design is a special one for automotive, that has all kinds of protection, including load dump, double battery, reverse battery, ALT field collapse protection, blah blah blah. It's made for automotive, let's put it that way. And it needs less than 1V headroom to maintain regulation, so it will work well below lowest, coldest weather, crummiest battery cranking voltage. So IF you have BAT+ available whatever your app, I'd say stick with that and use this regulator. The precision references run off this 5V, so I'd want a good regulator looking over them. Beyond that, suffice it to say that EGOR uses the most wunnerful op-amps yet to grace the earth for engine electrics guys, Analog Devices OP-x96 family (in EGOR's case OP-496's, quads). They are true rail-to-rail, super-low power, VERY low drift and noise floor (not meant to be used above say 100KHz practically speaking, perfect therefore for automotive, which is how they get the noise figure down so low), and of course single supply, all the way from 3V to 16V if memory serves. So they are just perfect, I use em ALL the time, and they work just swell on 5V, especially protected by that NatSemi LM2930 regulator. >How much current is needed at 5V? Putting this another way, is the >current draw low enough to use an ECM's regulated 5V output meant for >sensors (TPS & MAP)? Yeah, I think you can count on that, if you NEED to. It's so low, I didn't bother adding it up, but I'd say way below 50mA @ 5V. But again, I'd prefer you going off B+ like another other sensor, rather than a slave off the ECM, cuz there's plenty of room on EGOR, the regulator no way needs even a heat sink the load's so small, and that way you don't add to the load budget of the ECM. Always best to stand alone off BAT+ if you can. >Could EGOR use dual 5V supplies - one for internal circuitry, and one >for the source of current sent to the O2 sensor? The idea is to protect >against short circuits in external wiring. If the O2 harness gets >mangled by a fan, or melted by a manifold, thus shorting all the wires >to ground, the sensor supply can shut off. The internal supply can keep >working, allowing an error code to be reported. Nope, it's way too intertwined for the isolation yer hoping for. A noble goal, but in this puppy's case, especially since NTK & the HONDA bean-counters decided to save an extra wire from the sensor harness, the Ion pump and O2 VsCell sensor are commoned on one lead, so tryna isolate the supplies for the Ip Cell and the VsCell leaves you with just one lone op-map that's free of danger. If the Ion pump connector gets shorted to gnd, you're gonna spill 13mA at most into the crapper, and WAY less in the case of the VsCell bias, so not to worry about EGOR hemorrhaging. I understand the thot process, and coulda saved ya several synapses if I had mentioned earlier how low power this whole operation actually is. Suffice it to say, the main worry about pranging the harness, is shorting the HEATER supply lines, which have to be fused for greater than 5A at startup. So, you needn't worry about poor ole EGOR bleeding all over the place if his lifeline is severed. As far as setting error codes, as with anything like this (I'm assuming you've brought this up cuz you're thinkin bout yer own engine manager), when you can't use POWER issues to tellya when somethin's rotten in Denmark, probably oughta watch for lack of "changes". This is a tradeoff we have to make with wider dynamic range, in that EGOR's gonna swim all the way from deep to shallow end, cuz he can swing rail-to-rail to give max range of leanNrich, but as a result, you can't anymore say, "if at rail, then fault". Price you pay for "glory", I guess. This brings up another pet peave of mine, in that lots of stuff has apparently been designed assuming op-amps would always be as lame as the 80's, so designers used the idea that "above a certain level" was "out-of-range". This is a totally bogus design idea, and these guys obviously were living for the moment. Everyone knew that FET technology was gonna do away with that "diode junction" crap, but they went ahead and designed it into systems as if it was a law of nature. As a result, we've inherited from older auto systems, the loss of over 1V gnd/supply headroom, outta 5V. 20%+ loss of system range is alot to give up to a temporary artifact of bipolar technology, but it's there. The pits, dudes. Another example of this "food-chain paradigm" we're all suffering from; these guys probably figured by the time reality caught up with them, they'd be "managers" and therefore immune to technical criticism. Hey, life in the fast lane, everything changes in 5yrs, and if you're in a diff. place by then, not to worry. What a bunch of irresponsible horse-pucky. As my father used to say, "Old man WRONG goes down the road and waits for ya". Them guys oughta have their cars croak on them routinely as a reward for their intrepid devotion to the art. Snarl. >Is EGOR's 0 to 5V signal output range a "natural" range? How much of a >load can the output drive? It appears that GM ECM's often have an >unused analog input with a 1000 ohm pullup to 5V. Can EGOR drive this? "Natural"? that's a new one on me. Is that similar to "Organically grown"? EGOR's output will be exactly the same as the NTK box, if you want to plant Virtual Ground/Stoich on 3.0V like NTK does, OR (my personal preference) on 2.5V as any sane analog guy would do. I believe NTK picked 3.0V to give them some more "range" on the rich side, cuz they weren't able to use rail-to-rail amps, and so were somewhat limited with say 2.0V of swing for the rich side. With EGOR's better innards, you could "do the right thang, analog-wise" and plant the virtual gnd at 2.5V (i.e. mid-supply) like all the big boys do. As far as your GM ECM's 1K/5V "free input", I'd say any system that expected ANY output to be able to drive 1K into 5V is really asking for disgusting jokes about their mama. That's pretty low impedance. BUT, yes EGOR can handle that, since the final voltage output stage is a fully buffered unity-gain follower, just for them turkeys that think everything rotates around them. Sheesh. 1Kohm input impedance; da vewy noive! Harrumph. Course, you gonna pay for that with increased supply load, but it's still only another 10% of budget, so no sweat. >Can EGOR be designed with an output range of about 1 volt? This would >allow EGOR to directly drive an ECM's existing O2 input(s). (It's a >trivial matter to edit a PROM to handle a different O2 input voltage >profile.) NO, this ISN'T gonna be possible, and for an even better reason than just "levels" issues. If you read the previous posts, the output of these Ion Pump interfaces is in NO way similar to a stock O2 sensor. Additional, albeit simple, interface circuitry is required. I can't take the space AGAIN to outline this; suggest you climb back up the thread a day or two's worth and see the discussion about how EGOR is gonna be pin'd out to allow use in ALL kinds of diff. apps. It discusses things like what you've asked about interfacing to diff. kinds of systems. >Alternately, does it make sense to monitor one of EGOR's O2 cells using >an ECM's existing (differential input) O2 amp? > >How big will EGOR's circuit board be? All answered in the aboveNbeyond. >I went to a library and looked up how Honda wires their "LAF" O2 >sensor. This sensor is used only on the 49 state '92-'95+ Civic 1.5 >VTEC. The California emissions version of the same car&engine gets a >standard 4 wire heated O2 sensor. Bzzzzzzzt. I can't cite you chapterNverse of the year/model of the VX Civic, but I've BOUGHT sensors for our year/model range IN CALIF, and they ARE 5-wire and suitable. What exactly are you after here? I've ALREADY posted the Honda part number. You wanna argue with THAT, or what? I don't get yer drift, mate. Thanks for sharing the questions; I trust millions were served. Heh. Garfarkle From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 21:43:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00019 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:43:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pm03sm.pmm.mci.net (pm03sm.pmm.mci.net [208.159.126.152]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00014 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:43:13 -0400 Received: from default (usr47-dialup35.mix2.Atlanta.mci.net) by PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27035) with SMTP id <0ESK0031ECRYAK@PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for DIY_EFI@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:43:13 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 21:21:14 -0700 From: Strasser Subject: Zack's calculation verification: water injection To: DIY Message-id: <05c101bd7973$0a678bc0$a33e37a6@default> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Content-type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_uD/0WdN99Jo6aP00x0sMdg)" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_uD/0WdN99Jo6aP00x0sMdg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT I know we are already finished with this topic...I think, but I want to add something. (2 cents) Zack gave us a good thermodynamic view of the compression process which showed that the charge was approximately 800°F at the end of compression. Actually, if we assume a 95% scavenge effeciency (based on mass), the BDC (prior) to compression temperature will be around 190°F, instead of the 80°F he started with, due to mixing with combustion products. This takes the TDC temperature to a mere 1000°F (assuming the same isentropic, adiabatic, ideal gas, constant heat capacity path he chose). Since 1000°F (810K) is well above the critical temperature of water (643K), water will be a gas phase UNLESS PRESSURE IS RAISED TO 3200 PSIA. This does not happen before or after ignition, so I would say he is correct. :) Thanks, Zack for clarifying this for us. Wayne Strasser Chemical Engineer 2-Stroke EFI Patent Pending Christ is "the Way and the Truth and the Life.": John 14:6 --Boundary_(ID_uD/0WdN99Jo6aP00x0sMdg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
I know we are already finished with this topic...I think, but I want to add something.  (2 cents)
 
Zack gave us a good thermodynamic view of the compression process which showed that the charge was approximately 800°F at the end of compression. 
 
Actually, if we assume a 95% scavenge effeciency (based on mass), the BDC (prior) to compression temperature will be around 190°F, instead of the 80°F he started with, due to mixing with combustion products.  This takes the TDC temperature to a mere 1000°F (assuming the same isentropic, adiabatic, ideal gas, constant heat capacity path he chose).
 
Since 1000°F (810K) is well above the critical temperature of water (643K), water will be a gas phase UNLESS PRESSURE IS RAISED TO 3200 PSIA.  This does not happen before or after ignition, so I would say he is correct. :)
 
Thanks, Zack for clarifying this for us.
 
 
Wayne Strasser
Chemical Engineer
2-Stroke EFI Patent Pending
Christ is "the Way and the Truth and the Life.":  John 14:6 
--Boundary_(ID_uD/0WdN99Jo6aP00x0sMdg)-- From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 21:43:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00025 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:43:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pm03sm.pmm.mci.net (pm03sm.pmm.mci.net [208.159.126.152]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00020 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:43:15 -0400 Received: from default (usr47-dialup35.mix2.Atlanta.mci.net) by PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27035) with SMTP id <0ESK0031ECRYAK@PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for DIY_EFI@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:43:15 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 21:39:19 -0700 From: Strasser Subject: Danny's Summary: more water injection To: DIY Message-id: <05c201bd7973$0b9d4ca0$a33e37a6@default> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Content-type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_9SMpMHcgMXB4OY3cNm9NIg)" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_9SMpMHcgMXB4OY3cNm9NIg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Danny gave us a good summary of the water injection discussion to date. He asked about post-ignition steam properties and about water expansion versus NO and CO2. I would like to add. It can be shown that ignition temp and pressure can be (approximate...if anyone wants to see the source, write me outside of the group) around 5000 °R and 750 PSIA. By using the Peng/Robinson Equation of State, water, NO, and CO2 exhibit the following vapor volumes. The higher the vapor volume, obviously, the greater the expansion force. water: 4544 cm3 per mole NO: 4499 cm3 per mole CO2: 4548 cm3 per mole To make a long story short...all inert gases appear to have the same effect here?? These numbers depend on critial pressure, critical temp, and acentric factor. This is by no means an ideal gas calculation. Apparently at these conditions, it doesnt matter what compound is present. oh well.. Wayne Strasser Chemical Engineer 2-Stroke EFI Patent Pending Christ is "the Way and the Truth and the Life.": John 14:6 --Boundary_(ID_9SMpMHcgMXB4OY3cNm9NIg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Danny gave us a good summary of the water injection discussion to date.  He asked about post-ignition steam properties and about water expansion versus NO and CO2.
 
I would like to add.  It can be shown that ignition temp and pressure can be (approximate...if anyone wants to see the source, write me outside of the group) around 5000 °R and 750 PSIA.  By using the Peng/Robinson Equation of State, water, NO, and CO2 exhibit the following vapor volumes.  The higher the vapor volume, obviously, the greater the expansion force.
 
water: 4544 cm3 per mole
NO: 4499 cm3 per mole   
CO2: 4548 cm3 per mole
 
To make a long story short...all inert gases appear to have the same effect here??  These numbers depend on critial pressure, critical temp, and acentric factor.  This is by no means an ideal gas calculation.  Apparently at these conditions, it doesnt matter what compound is present.
 
oh well..
 
 
Wayne Strasser
Chemical Engineer
2-Stroke EFI Patent Pending
Christ is "the Way and the Truth and the Life.":  John 14:6 
--Boundary_(ID_9SMpMHcgMXB4OY3cNm9NIg)-- From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 21:43:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00054 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:43:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pm03sm.pmm.mci.net (pm03sm.pmm.mci.net [208.159.126.152]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00048 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:43:47 -0400 Received: from default (usr47-dialup35.mix2.Atlanta.mci.net) by PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27035) with SMTP id <0ESK0031ECRYAK@PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for DIY_EFI@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:43:16 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 21:44:02 -0700 From: Strasser Subject: Danny's patent concerns To: DIY Message-id: <05c301bd7973$0cc244a0$a33e37a6@default> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Content-type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_xi6TJd9lD21NCCKm1Vki/w)" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_xi6TJd9lD21NCCKm1Vki/w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A patent does not secure the rights to the "money" of which you spoke...UNLESS you are prepared to prosecute in court. It just slows the theives down... You would NOT be forfeiting your rights to a patent by disclosing your claimed art to public domain...UNLESS you wait more than one year. As long as you can show documentation (discuss this with patent attrny) that it is your idea, you still have first shot during that year. Wayne Strasser Chemical Engineer 2-Stroke EFI Patent Pending Christ is "the Way and the Truth and the Life.": John 14:6 --Boundary_(ID_xi6TJd9lD21NCCKm1Vki/w) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
A patent does not secure the rights to the "money" of which you spoke...UNLESS you are prepared to prosecute in court.  It just slows the theives down...
 
You would NOT be forfeiting your rights to a patent by disclosing your claimed art to public domain...UNLESS you wait more than one year.  As long as you can show documentation (discuss this with patent attrny) that it is your idea, you still have first shot during that year.    
 
 
Wayne Strasser
Chemical Engineer
2-Stroke EFI Patent Pending
Christ is "the Way and the Truth and the Life.":  John 14:6 
--Boundary_(ID_xi6TJd9lD21NCCKm1Vki/w)-- From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 22:09:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00748 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 22:09:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from bert.acesag.auburn.edu (bert.acesag.auburn.edu [131.204.46.47]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00734 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 22:08:33 -0400 Received: from bert (bert [131.204.46.47]) by bert.acesag.auburn.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA18874 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:08:31 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:08:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gregory A. Parmer" X-Sender: gparmer@bert To: DIY Subject: '91 GM pickup PROM In-Reply-To: <05c101bd7973$0a678bc0$a33e37a6@default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well, ummmm. I *think* it worked. I'm a learning as I go here. Have a look at "747asdu.bin" (the 91 PU) and/or "783akba.bin" (88 Olds) and lemme know how much more I gotta learn before I can operate a stupid programmer. Both are at ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". -greg From diy_efi-owner Wed May 6 23:49:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02053 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:49:06 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02047 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:48:51 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Thu, 07 May 98 13:52:50 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD79BF.3BE1A540@PJARAMAZ >; Thu, 7 May 1998 13:51:28 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD79BF.3BE1A540@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Whattza Holden?. Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:51:26 +1000 Encoding: 74 TEXT, 73 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, The '72 onwards (HQ series) had either 253/308 (local engines) or 350 in the GTS/Monaro (pronounced Mon-ar-o). HJ ('74 onwards) had the local 308. The HK ('67-68) had the 307 (called the 5 litre) or 327 (in the GTS), the HT(approx 69-70) got the 350 (GTS) but used the local V8 for the lower models. HG had the 350 as well as the local motors. I could be a little wrong with years as its been literally years since I craved for a HK GTS. BTW The 253/308 was originally designed to accomodate a capacity of around 5.5 litres. It took 'em 25 years to do it with the Commodore Senator/GTS - 5.7 Litre. Unfortunately, since the demise of the Group A Touring Car Formula, GMH didn't have to homologate the trick gear so we lost stuff like the twin staggered throttle body intakes which would have made the 5.7 really get up and go. People pay $2-3000 for these intakes these days. Cheers, Peter ---------- From: Clare Snyder Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 9:45 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Danny Barrett wrote: > > >From what I'm told, the Holden V8 is a completely Australian designed engine > (but I could have been told a heap of crap...). As for the V6, I believe it > is a Buick. However, with the "Ecotec" V6, it is basically loosely designed > on the previous Buick re-hash, and not, in reality the same engine, although > the cubic displacement is still nominally 3.8L. > > >For the unlucky blokes that can't get em (usa), have a look at > >http://www.thrasher-ep.com > >they are a neat car. Are these the ones the 808 ecm is used > >in the SS, and SHV (?). Is that engine the same inside as > >our (USA) small block chevy?. > > > >Public Service Announcement: > > > >Cone Shaped Hat HQ is also one step closer to being able > >to dim the neighborhood lights by bench racing ecms. > >No worries here!! > >Bruce > > > > > > Not sure of the new stuff, but a '72 premier, and Monaro had basically a chevy 265cu in small block. I have had the experience of working on both in a past life, and if it wasn't in a Holden car, I'd have sworn it was a '55 chevy. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AP#`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M;T!'@!P``$````5````4D4Z(%=H871T>F$@2&]L9&5N/RX` M`````@%Q``$````6`````;UY:VD?WCX(YN6O$=&^NP! !5\J;P``'@`># $` M```%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!D```!P:F%R86UA>D!I;F=E;FEC;RYC M;VTN874``````P`&$(L"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K %P!G0,R\S,/8X'L 7,&,'0!_ &J +@$,?4@6Q,S4P( N M(($?\2!'5%,O30(@/0K ;Q[ %, "( A@;F,7"8 %T (@+0K +6\IVBX<<$H> MP!X0-!Y&'W2_(F(@U""!)* <_QQP2R3A8#8W+38X);@@@#?;'L @\6PCX2)B M-29 '^";%Z AI#(I@2(X*2PB4R!(5"AA<"-A>" @-CDM-S ?<&=O%P5 *2,B M`2@KXB!B=>T%0'41\"7Z5B"@`A %P$TF%'<@$01B;',DH4?[*-@B`6$$(#"P M', R4B88G01@= 6P,4$G#$D@!:!4=6P?L&(=\&$J R@"-Q9S* '^$@ M>?YE$=$R4A_@!" UD GP*G+[!) IP7DV]0"0(\$U`CA@OG8CX3 2-< H(2*A M+B<,^$)45PKA"V05PAP5'=+O($8>< 0@!;!I(5$X $D'YS'.U50#A!)OT*]"J ,08X5C "`&DM,30TSPWP#-!> M`PM9,38*H%#!^P60!4 M8"<*AU[;##!?IOI&`V$Z82Y?I@R"1, +8'E%0FYY M!(%@SV'=17%T;V,/9!L=T AP0Z-"I@04UE MKV'=2? G9^]D&TN >5\-P&E DV_A&N R+B$Q+F]2$)QO+5 !%4!P@&1U:Z]Q M9KYU8FI?X6W/9!M2VF5T(%<1P ) >CI1!O"9#;!N/SK=708S-EZG^SR%7Z9$ M`'!E4#NP"L 7H-<"0#9"%4 Z"H4^'59[\-X^8L)1\4 0-0`G0P`ST/\U8"PE M=M,OT@0`0$(#<%5Q_T>2$W N\"J@!T ', .@/N?[(31[AR@NLC462_,WTWV2 MGS6Q'> LL$#R.:%P+H2@S221000@,!96-BP@-1![-9 J@&5,$1_@>X=^TT+> M=4V!)*$PH3G0X<"(")3%,"&4'#P+O"'A.53T2T1P'-H+"!4PB.0/G2)T0.@4^) PB)B `C!^PA4P`Q #(".0 MPTBP/H0S+CA,.M9[^_\P)2.P"D!-D#B@`F!"L%=C7WTA(/!+LE120O$H+O!A MORP12_,UP4*B0!!\&&@"0*!P.B\O=YK@+E"A\XXA!) M9820/\%\&!_QWSB@ M90(UP"%PEX-R6#$'$-](,TC1(F("(%=D(%V0(* _!9!#`'[1+O)\&"(U4U/1 MCE132%8>P#\DD34`_Y=%(32/J N `)!3,3)@?!BC"&$>P%5301]P"<&4/! M!W#7(E,A<#Y0: ;@BEM$)\%(Q.&! L.\V@9_!,4!\&$Y. M(06P'S*3@]$7H"$A?!A"*O@"($Y0D$!_;.1:THR`B *A0;@-M$B,>\UP JP3I$J@&:0DD%Q!I!_1 ,R M8$NRP:-^-9VQA=$G_U*E`^ %L .@AI<]\KFA&> _IJ0ZUF @'5;(3\D\7R^X M7%Q?Q^_+:V @?& C\"A;72E@(\R1RI_.K=,%\,ZA,"]805PB$,ZA_D+-OARQ M,G6BU1ZA,I*T4-\R@)KQPV!E8G# ;IO0-<#/BB--D,V_U79%+6I@`Q'_'Q&I M`]2%/V(CD$K0!T#4_^?9!DGP,E!V;TN042$CL?]*,M:%!X&/\$W I*;,XH-:%061D0A%#DQ>@^]WQ)*!3,]!)L!_Q"H62D+^0``> $>"T4+1F0F G ML_%_"Q$_8DX0"L%/(P.1-Q!G]S8B'> #H'FE4D[!39$VL_\UP"ZPL<)!`!UF M"'!/0!4@?^>8=[]>IQO57Z8*A1;!``'PX ```P`0$ `````#`!$0`P```$ ` M!S"@''1D:7F]`4 `"#"@''1D:7F]`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ``````P`- '-/TW``!S:7F] ` end From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 00:35:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA02497 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:35:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from svn.net (thergen@svn1.svn.net [207.48.84.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA02492 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:35:30 -0400 Received: from localhost (thergen@localhost) by svn.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA32065 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:34:50 -0700 Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:34:49 -0700 (PDT) From: T Hergen To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: 747 meet 730, 730 meet 165 In-Reply-To: <199805062108.OAA27000@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I think the sensors that get gnd and +5v such as the map and tps (not the [heated] O2) can be shared. I don't think they rely on a resistor divider arrangement like the coolant temp sensor. The map on my '92 GM truck even appears to have an internal amplifier/buffer (can't measure resistance, but give it gnd and +5v and a voltage that changes with vacuum comes out [no pullup needed]). Using an external pullup on the coolant sensor followed by an op amp may or may not work. Others on the list indicated that some ECMs switch in different pullup value depending on the temperature (improves ECMs measurement resolution over particular ranges). If you're just using potentiometer to simulate the coolant sensor, adjust the pot for the same voltage in the dual ECM case as in the single and they should indicate the same temperature. The only time the pot may be a problem is when your near the range where the ECMs want to switch the pullup value -- anyone know about what temperature this happens? What are you currently doing for the O2 in the single ECM case? As others have stated, digital inputs should be okay. Tom On Wed, 6 May 1998, Orin Eman wrote: > It probably wouldn't work. Some sensors are fed thru a resistor from > a voltage source (eg coolant). You would end up with half the source > impedance which would affect the voltage at the sensor. > For example, when the sensors resistance is the same as the source impedance, > the voltage across it would be half that of the voltage source. > Half the source impedance and now the voltage across the sensor > would be 2/3 that of the source... quite an error. I wouldn't expect > smoke from the ECU in this case tho'. > > Some digital inputs might be OK, but you would have to reverse engineer > the input circuitry to be sure. > > For the resistor fed sensor, it wouldn't be too hard to make an > op-amp plus transistor circuit to feed the second ECU. > > > Has anyone any experience with running 2 ecms off the same > > inputs?. ie would they have enough "impedance" to share inputs? > > or would they do something strange?. The outputs would be > > loaded independently of each other, as far as driving any loads, > > it would all be run off a small motorcycle battery. Was just > > going to use some resistors (like 20 ohm for the injectors), > > and hook up a ignition module with a 20 dummy load on it also. > > If this is unknown ground can anyone give me a list of things > > that might go wrong. > > I can almost smell the smoke now > > Bruce Glad I scotch guarded all my Cone Shaped Hats > > the other day. > From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 00:52:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA02659 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:52:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA02654 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:52:30 -0400 Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.68.6.233]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA28107 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:52:30 +0000 Message-ID: <35513DBC.3A498720@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 00:51:08 -0400 From: Thomas Matthews X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DIY-EFI Subject: 747 bin file Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu What is the asdu bin file that was posted on the FTP site recently from? CID,trans, truck size (1/2,3/4,1 ton)... Seems like it came out right at first glance... Thanks Tom From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 00:56:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA02725 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:56:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.arlec.com.au (mail.arlec.com.au [203.36.152.195]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA02721 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:56:25 -0400 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Thu, 07 May 1998 15:43:24 +1000 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from default (192.1.8.200::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.6); Thu, 07 May 1998 15:43:23 +1000 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 7 May 1998 14:43:30 +0800 Message-ID: <01BD79C6.80E94A60.dzorde@soanar.com.au> From: Dan Zorde To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Whattza Holden?. Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:43:29 +0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 26 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu A few points: 1. The Holden V8 (talking the 308 here) is an Aussie design. However, some of the earlier models late 60's came with 307 Chevs and a variety of other Chevs bigger and smaller. 2. The Holden TPI looks good, however there is a lot of smoke and mirrors. What you see is just lots of bolt on plastic bits that come chromed or painted to your preference. Does look good though if you have the twin throttle body setup. Mind you I think if you polish and paint the Chev TPI correctly it looks a hell of a lot better than the Holden one. But if you really want one you'd need the full engine as the TPI won't mate to any Chev engines (already asked others about it). Dan dzorde@soanar.com.au -----Original Message----- From: Paul Tholey [SMTP:pft101@psu.edu] Sent: Thursday, 07 May, 1998 5:57 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Where the h*ll can I get that K*ck *ss TPI intake in the Holdens? I am serious! Paul Tholey From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 01:50:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03508 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:50:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA03504 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:50:40 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id BCF09324; Thu, 07 May 1998 01:25:58 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:50:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Boingers Message-ID: <19980507.012518.16350.8.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <01bd7901$193d0700$0100007f@zippy> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,5-6,8,10-13,21-22,26-27,32-34 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >To the person claiming no significant performance or mileage benefit from a >rotary: (with aftermarket exhaust) 225 HP at the flywheel, naturally >aspirated, in 1.3 liters of displacement in a 2500 lb. car. 18-25 mpg >depending on driving style. The mpg is similar to a V8, as is the power, but >a 13B engine can be easily lifted by 2 men (about 300 lbs., with all the >accessories still attached). That alone is a significant advantage over a >V8. With attached turbo, rotaries are reliably running up to 400 hp on the >street. Mileage remains similar. Can you say that for a 400HP piston >engine? I'm not talking about specialized racing applications, or even how many people it takes to pick it up. I understand that the power/weight ratio is better than a four-stroke piston engine. I'm talking about what sells cars. Go down to your favorite Mazda dealer and drive one. Yah, it's pretty fast and gets decent mileage. Now, go to a Chevy dealer and hop into a Camaro Z28. It'll blow the doors of the RX7, and the mileage still isn't that bad. Now, go hop into a Saturn twin cam. Much better mileage and not too shabby on the performance. My point is that the mileage/performance balance isn't significently (if at all) better than the other cars you can buy off the lot. If I have to swap an engine, I might appreciate that it is lighter. When I'm driving, I appreciate the performance of the car as a whole. There are some directly injected two-stroke engines on the drawing boards. I don't have the exact figures, but I would be willing to bet (if I were a betting man) that the power/weight ratio of these two-strokers will be similar to the Wankyl. They won't, however, suffer from the wierd-shaped combustion chamber and longevity of the Wankyl. Ray Drouillard _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 01:51:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03524 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:51:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA03519 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:51:34 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id BCC09324; Thu, 07 May 1998 01:25:58 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 23:51:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Boingers Message-ID: <19980507.012518.16350.5.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <199805060401.XAA26862@admin.inetport.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-19,25-26,33-34,37-39 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 5 May 1998 23:05:34 -0600 "Zack" writes: >> There are other ways of reducing the loss due to >> forcing a few ounces of metal bounce back and forth. You could hold >> the crank still and rotate the cylinders. I believe the British >> made an engine that did that. > >Ray, > >If you hold the crank still, you -still- have that metal >bouncing back and forth. You cannot, even in theory, create a piston >engine with perfect dynamic balance. You can in theory achieve >perfect dynamic balance in a rotary engine, and some designs have in >fact achieved this (the Moller Rotary for one), though most have not >(the dynamic balance of Mazda's rotaries is not perfect). >. As for the rotary piston engine (which cannot be dynamically >balanced) lots of people made rotary piston engines, not just the >British (the rotary kind on the old WWI planes, where the entire >engine rotated around the stationary crankshaft). They were a very >unfavorable design for lots of reasons, and didn't last very long. It is theoretically possible to create a piston engine without recriprocating parts. The cylinders (I would use a radial design) rotate around a central axis The pistons and connecting rods each rotate around an axis that is offset from the central axis by a distance of one half the stroke of the engine. Each of the two assemblies would rotate in a balanced fashion. I'm not quite certain what you mean by "perfect dynamic balance", but the point is that the piston isn't being forced to acellerate and decellerate some 2000 - 14000 times a minute. They are simply rotating around a fixed point. They'll tilt back and forth a bit relative to the connecting rod, and the rotational velocity of the connecting rod and piston will go up and down slightly, but this is nothing compared to the constant wobbling back and forth that occurs in a standard piston engine. If you wanted to make such an engine (valving might be a challenge), you could go with heavy pistons if you want. After all, they aren't forced to bounce up and down all the time. Ray Drouillard _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 01:51:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03529 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:51:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA03523 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:51:34 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id BCD09324; Thu, 07 May 1998 01:25:58 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:07:31 -0400 Subject: Re: High MPG Message-ID: <19980507.012518.16350.6.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <199805060524.PAA26787@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-4,15-16,19-24,26-27,29,31,33,35-39,41,43,45,47,49-56 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I never heard about any real difficulty getting the cylinders. A couple of guys on the Full-Sized Jeep list are running propane in Austrailia, and they never mentioned having a hard time finding the cylinders. Of course, you can put a bigger cylinder in a Wagoneer. As for here in North America, you can get them out of some junkyards (according to a friend of mine in Mexico). There are a lot of vehicles running on propane in Mexico. It's not only cheaper, but runs a lot better and cleaner. It runs better than the best gasoline. If you compare it to that *stuff* that is available down there, there is no comparison. I drove from Detroit to Chihuaua, Chihuaua, and on to Guachochi, Chihuaua. I thought my engine was malfunctioning. I got a decent tank of gas and it improved a lot. Once I crossed the border, I went to a station in El Paso and topped off my tank. Instant improvement. It kept getting better as I continued to add more American gasoline. The next time I drive down there, I am going to either run propane or install one heck of a mondo fuel filter and sediment bulb. I had a carburater then, but I have Holley Pro-Jection now. Ray Drouillard On Wed, 6 May 1998 15:24:01 +1000 (EST) danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) writes: >Around here, when you consider everything (including cylinder hire - you >can't *buy* auto cylinders anymore, from what I've heard), you need to do >about 30,000 km (18,600 miles) per year to even break even - I only do about >10,000 to 15,000 km per year - a lot of good it would do me. However, all of >the taxi's use liquified petroleum gas, as they are doing well above this >figure... > >Danny Barrett. > >P.S.: it's been that long since I've looked at the price of fule down here >that I had forgotten that the price had gone down - in Tasmania, it's now >about 75 Aussy cents per litre for leaded (what my car currently requires), >and 73 cents per litre for unleaded. This equates to about $4.37 (US) per US >gallon, and $4.25 (US) per US gallon, respectively. As for LPG (propane), it >is about $0.45 per litre, or $2.62 (US) per US gallon. > > > >>If I lived in an area where gas prices are that high, I would be a lot >>more agressive in my plans for running my Full-Sized Jeep on propane or >>methane. Right now, there isn't enough of a price advantage. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 01:52:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03561 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:52:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA03555 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:52:03 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id BCE09324; Thu, 07 May 1998 01:25:58 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:25:20 -0400 Subject: Re: High MPG Message-ID: <19980507.012518.16350.7.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: <473661.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-37,39-40,49-50,53-54,57-58,60-63 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 05 May 1998 16:39:00 -0500 dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) writes: > >-> Yes, I agree. In fact, I think that if as much time, effort, and >-> money was put into the development of a turbine engine (like the >-> Chrysler one) as has been put into the engines we currently run, the >-> "200 MPG carb" type idea would be a case of "so what!" In the case of >-> the Chrysler turbine, it had a > > Chrysler spent tens of millions of dollars on their turbine, and two >generations of Chrysler engineers tried to make it workable in a car. >Rover, General Motors, and Fiat also poured pounds, dollars, and lira >down the turbine drain. > > There are three problems with turbines. One is scale; smaller car-size >turbines are less efficient than truck-size or airplane-size turbines. >Another problem is problem is output; the turbine has a high >speed output shaft with a relatively narrow RPM band. Various schemes >of variable pitch blades, hydraulic couplings, and whatnot were used by >the prototypes. The third problem is the turbine runs essentially wide >open all the time. For a 200hp motor the efficiency would be >acceptable; but throttling a turbine back to 25hp for cruise resulted in >dramatic loss of efficiency compared to a conventional engine. > > Chrysler and Rover built driveable prototypes, but throttle response >and fuel consumption were unacceptable. None of the advances in >computer-aided design, metallurgy, or exotic materials have been enough >to overcome the turbines' problems. > > Fiat and GM built turbine powered trucks for a while, but even scaled >up to that size they were not able to beat the Diesels' lower cost. > >==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us====================================== >I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? >my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? >====================================http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm If you can get them to run efficiently at power levels of around 100 KW, they might be useful in automobiles with the appropriate transmission. Use the turbine at the most efficient throttle and speed to run a hydraulic pump. Use this pump to turn hydraulic motors in each wheel, and to pump up an accumulater. If you can store 10 - 20 gallons of hydraulic oil at 3000 - 5000 PSI, you can store a lot of energy (I calculated it out when I was in tenth grade - a looooong time ago). Once the accumulater is filled, throttle the turbine down to a level that'll just barely keep it hot enough. This can be a trivial amount of fuel flow if the housing is well insulated and the exhaust pipe is mostly closed off (sort of like idling a diesel). Some research will be necessary to optomize the size of the engine. A big engine will be more efficient, but will have more idle (fuel wasting) time compared to the time it is actually producing power. You can use the same princable with a generater, battery, and motors. If you want to get with a researcher named Bitterly, you can use a flywheel as the power storage device. You could, of course, run this thing on anything from natural gas to caster oil. Ray Drouillard _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 01:52:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03592 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:52:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA03587 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:52:53 -0400 Received: from pclab14.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab14.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.114]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA00965 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 15:52:50 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:52:50 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805070552.PAA00965@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Danny's Summary: more water injection X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@EFI332.eng.ohio-state.edu This seems to be probably the best explaination that I've heard on whether H2O injection will work or not. I have one question. This may seem llike a silly question to you, but I'm mot farmiliar with the stuff I've left below (from your email), so please bear with me... Since water is injected in the liquid state, and hence displaces a negligible amount of the gases, would the presence of steam after TDC raise the pressure within the combustion chamber simply through the fact that there is "more there?" Or is this an invalid assumption? Or, on the other hand, if it is correct, would the difference made be too small to be bothered with? Also, thanks for your info. on the patents. Unfortunately, the laws concerning disclosure of patent details are different in Australia, and we're not basically not alowed to tell anyone until the patent office makes the submission open for public scrutiny. In any case, I don't yet have the funds required to convert my car so that I could try it out, let alone get a patent. I would have to wait until I've finished my degree, in a couple of years. Anyway, thanks all the same. Danny Barrett. >By using the Peng/Robinson Equation of State, water, NO, and CO2 exhibit the following vapor volumes. The >higher the vapor volume, obviously, the greater the expansion force. > >water: 4544 cm3 per mole >NO: 4499 cm3 per mole >CO2: 4548 cm3 per mole > >To make a long story short...all inert gases appear to have the same effect here?? These numbers depend on >critial pressure, critical temp, and acentric factor. This is by no means an ideal gas calculation. >Apparently at these conditions, it doesnt matter what compound is present. From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 03:00:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04539 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 03:00:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA04524 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 03:00:40 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yXKik-0001ScC; Thu, 7 May 98 03:03 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: 747 meet 730, 730 meet 165 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 03:03:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: from "T Hergen" at May 6, 98 09:34:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > I think the sensors that get gnd and +5v such as the map and tps (not > the [heated] O2) can be shared. I don't think they rely on a resistor > divider arrangement like the coolant temp sensor. The map on my '92 GM > truck even appears to have an internal amplifier/buffer (can't measure > resistance, but give it gnd and +5v and a voltage that changes with > vacuum comes out [no pullup needed]). > > Using an external pullup on the coolant sensor followed by an op amp may > or may not work. Others on the list indicated that some ECMs switch in > different pullup value depending on the temperature (improves ECMs > measurement resolution over particular ranges). If you're just using > potentiometer to simulate the coolant sensor, adjust the pot for the same > voltage in the dual ECM case as in the single and they should indicate the > same temperature. The only time the pot may be a problem is when your > near the range where the ECMs want to switch the pullup value -- anyone > know about what temperature this happens? an op amp could also be used as buffering device with unity gain to take care of the inputs that are current based Clive From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 04:26:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA05243 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:26:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA05239 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:26:34 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD7999.BD1BB9F0@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:23:04 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Water injection and racing & more Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:23:03 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 28 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This was a common device used by some of the thundersaloon teams to cool off disks , the ammount of water used is minimal, and it won't go on the track as the heat on the disks vaporises any residue fluid... As for DIY EFI, I don't think that it has much to do with it, though neither has Aero engines, catalytic cracking, ceramic coatings et al, I for one am happy that we have an eclectic mix of 'performance' and technical subjects on this list. Rob Humphris >---------- >From: Michael Kasimirsky[SMTP:mtk@tmc.astm.cmri.cmu.edu] >Sent: 06 May 1998 19:51 >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: RE: Water injection and racing & more > >[...details of watering brake drums deleted...] > >Well, I don't know what kind of racing you are doing, but most racing >organizations would black flag you, and rightfully so, for spraying >water where it can fall on the track. If this is dirt then just forget >I mentioned anything, but spraying fluids on pavement creates a VERY >dangerous situation for the competitors behind you. > >What this has to do with DIY-EFI I don't know, but I road race >motorcycles and ideas like this scare the crap out of me. > From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 04:30:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA05284 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:30:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05280 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:30:53 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-006.mcn.net [208.26.146.6]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA29594 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 02:30:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35516E0B.2EA84868@mcn.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 02:17:16 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: High MPG References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Robert Humphris wrote: > > I've done the ceramic coating at home as well, but I had trouble getting > my cylinder head into the oven, now you lot say you use toaster > ovens.... You Americans must have very big slices of bread... > > Rob Humphris > > >I took this individuals recommendation and demoted my toaster > >oven from "toaster" to "ceramic coater". > > > > I'm having trouble getting my parts into the oven, too. It's not the physical size, they're being obstructed by the cook. : ) Shannen From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 04:33:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA05317 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:33:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA05313 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:33:35 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD799A.B7363730@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:30:04 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: High MPG Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:30:03 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 27 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Have any of you seen those people that make jet engines from turbos? One of them used an Air/Oil emulsion for bearing lubrication. No additional modifications were needed for the turbo, but I couldn't see this as being all that usable on a car or bike... where would you put the compressor? >---------- >From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us[SMTP:dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us] >Sent: 06 May 1998 23:16 >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: High MPG > > >-> regenerative braking and massive power switching module. On top of >-> all that, pure water was used for cooling of motor and get this: was >-> fluid used in turbine's journal bearings instead of oil. > > Sure, water will work just fine. Take a look at a big hydroelectric >turbine sometime; chances are it'll have water plumbed to sleeve >bearings. Once the shaft is spinning any fluid will do - even air, >which is often used in very high speed applications. > > Automobiles use oil-fed plain bearings primarily because they already >*have* oil in the crankcase to lube the myriad things which require >lubrication, so it makes sense to use oil. > > From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 04:45:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA05476 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:45:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA05471 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:45:26 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD799C.6462D660@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:42:04 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Boingers Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:42:03 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 40 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The point with the Wankel is that it is a 1.3, where as a Camaro is what, 3 times that displacement? Yet they have similar performance. Add that to the weight of the engine, which does add to the performance of the car ( less weight = better power to weight ratio, and better handling as the car ceases to be engine heavy, so you start getting easier moments of force on the car ). Lets compare like for like, I guarentee that if you added sufficent number of rotors to take the displacement to that of the Camaro, fuel injected it, you would be unable to out drag it. Then if you take the same displacement as the Saturn ( What is one of these we don't have that model over here in the UK ) and put it in a similar weight car, that the engine would be just as lively, and the performance would be as good if not better as the weight would be less. Two stroke direct injection engines? We will see what they are like when they are mass produced. Rob Humphris > >I'm not talking about specialized racing applications, or even how many >people it takes to pick it up. I understand that the power/weight ratio >is better than a four-stroke piston engine. I'm talking about what sells >cars. Go down to your favorite Mazda dealer and drive one. Yah, it's >pretty fast and gets decent mileage. Now, go to a Chevy dealer and hop >into a Camaro Z28. It'll blow the doors of the RX7, and the mileage >still isn't that bad. Now, go hop into a Saturn twin cam. Much better >mileage and not too shabby on the performance. > >My point is that the mileage/performance balance isn't significently (if >at all) better than the other cars you can buy off the lot. If I have to >swap an engine, I might appreciate that it is lighter. When I'm driving, >I appreciate the performance of the car as a whole. > >There are some directly injected two-stroke engines on the drawing >boards. I don't have the exact figures, but I would be willing to bet >(if I were a betting man) that the power/weight ratio of these >two-strokers will be similar to the Wankyl. They won't, however, suffer >from the wierd-shaped combustion chamber and longevity of the Wankyl. > > From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 04:46:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA05522 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:46:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05516 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:46:48 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-43.brokersys.com [209.113.60.44]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA23430 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 03:49:07 -0500 Message-ID: <35517091.BE1AC9@brokersys.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 03:28:01 -0500 From: Walter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: map sensor replacement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone know where I could find an off the shelf map sensor with a 0 to 5v output? thanks, walter From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 05:11:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA06005 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:11:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA05997 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:11:01 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-006.mcn.net [208.26.146.6]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA02659 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 03:11:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3551777A.138D7315@mcn.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 02:57:30 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Boingers References: <3550B9B7.33F280C4@lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Ahhh. Memories of Old Rhienbeck Aerodrome. That engine has no throttle, only a switch for something like 1/3, 2/3, and full power. Kills spark plugs but doesn't stop fuel flow through engine. Lots of those (Fokker?) went down in fire according to announcer. Caution for DIY Rev limiter. Wild show, BTW. Shannen kenkelly@lucent.com wrote: > > I've only seen one radial that bolted the Crank to the > firewall and mounted the prop to the cylinders. It was a > Biplane from 1910 + or - 2 years. I actually saw it give a > demo flight. The rotating cylinders required a very short > exhaust pipe, and it really barked when it ran. > > If you want to see one it was at the rhienbech Airodrome in > Rheinbech, NY. During the summer months they actually put on > weekend shows where you can see WWI and earlier aircraft > fly. > > Ken > > Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >I believe the British made an engine that did that. > > > > Yea, Aero engines... 12 cylinders ( or more ) with the prop bolted onto > > > > the cylinders, round and round they went, vroooom... all that air flow > > > > over the casing kept it nice and cool. Not much use in a car though. > > > > > > I must have missed that one in my searches...all the rotary engines I know > > > of were single row radials with 7 cylinders. Any more info on the 12 > > > cylinder [or more] item? > > > > > > Jim Davies > > > > they cam with 5, 6, 7, 9 cyl in one row > > or 2 row models up to 18 cyl > > not all of these are rotaing block types > > most were rotating crank > > > > the bearing loads on a this amount of rataign mass were unbeleivable > > > > Clive > > > From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 05:19:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA06076 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:19:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA06066 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:19:02 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD79A1.185DD4E0@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:15:44 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: High MPG Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:15:43 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 27 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I had this problem, but found that it could be overcome with an offer of a meal out that evening. >---------- >From: Shannen Durphey[SMTP:shannen@mcn.net] >Sent: 07 May 1998 09:17 >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: Re: High MPG > >Robert Humphris wrote: >> >> I've done the ceramic coating at home as well, but I had trouble getting >> my cylinder head into the oven, now you lot say you use toaster >> ovens.... You Americans must have very big slices of bread... >> >> Rob Humphris >> >> >I took this individuals recommendation and demoted my toaster >> >oven from "toaster" to "ceramic coater". >> > >> > >I'm having trouble getting my parts into the oven, too. >It's not the physical size, they're being obstructed by the >cook. : ) > >Shannen > From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 05:39:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA06415 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:39:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from soleil.acomp.usf.edu (soleil.acomp.usf.edu [131.247.100.19]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA06408 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:39:09 -0400 Received: from centauri (tampappp207.net.usf.edu [131.247.166.207]) by soleil.acomp.usf.edu (8.8.7/8.6.5) with SMTP id FAA22379 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805070939.FAA22379@soleil.acomp.usf.edu> From: "Jake Lindeke" Organization: Supra Owners Group International To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 05:45:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: High MPG Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Have any of you seen those people that make jet engines from turbos? > One of them used an Air/Oil emulsion for bearing lubrication. No > additional modifications were needed for the turbo, but I couldn't see > this as being all that usable on a car or bike... where would you put the > compressor? I made a Turbine Jet, but cant think what you are talking about. Could you get a picture for us to look at? --Jake Lindeke --SOGI South-East Chapter Coordinator --http://sesogi.bsfh.org From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 06:44:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA07271 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:44:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA07267 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:44:31 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD79AD.058D6EA0@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:41:06 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: High MPG Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:41:06 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 25 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu God knows where it was, I was looking from one of the turbo jet home pages, the bloke used a Mitsubishi Turbo, I have no idea where his page is... Rob Humphris >---------- >From: Jake Lindeke[SMTP:jlindeke@bsfh.org] >Sent: 07 May 1998 10:45 >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: RE: High MPG > >> Have any of you seen those people that make jet engines from turbos? >> One of them used an Air/Oil emulsion for bearing lubrication. No >> additional modifications were needed for the turbo, but I couldn't see >> this as being all that usable on a car or bike... where would you put the >> compressor? > >I made a Turbine Jet, but cant think what you are talking about. Could you >get >a picture for us to look at? >--Jake Lindeke >--SOGI South-East Chapter Coordinator >--http://sesogi.bsfh.org > From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 06:58:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA07376 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:58:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA07372 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 06:58:15 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA16765 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 03:58:12 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Questions about EGOR Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 03:58:59 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <36059312.212070062@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <3550F2A9.33B4@cruzers.com> <35efecdb.169519296@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> In-Reply-To: <35efecdb.169519296@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id GAA07373 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 06 May 1998 18:36:42 -0700, garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: >I'd prefer you going off B+ like another other sensor, rather than a >slave off the ECM, cuz there's plenty of room on EGOR, the regulator no >way needs even a heat sink the load's so small, and that way you don't >add to the load budget of the ECM. Always best to stand alone off BAT+ >if you can. I got a question about this that makes me wanna correct my brainstem/typo error in the above sentence. What I meant to say was: "I'd prefer you going off BAT+ like any other DEVICE ..." Gar From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 07:08:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07514 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:08:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07510 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:08:29 -0400 Received: from pclab28.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab28.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.128]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA22007 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:08:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 21:08:27 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805071108.VAA22007@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Boingers X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu That's exactly what *I* thought... The only thing is, how can you run an EFI system on it? Also, how can you water cool the engine? if this was easily attainable, it might make a good car engine (given a suitably designed engine bay). You wouldn't even need a flywheel.... Basically, the pistons rotate about one "pivot" point, and the rest of the engine rotates aropund another "pivot" point. Two circular motions, and they even go in the same direction (it wouldn't be physically possible otherwise)... One of the downsides would be that it wouldn't be very responsive to the accelerator pedal, as it has all of that inertia in the crank-case spinning. But, try as I have (in the past, as well as just now) to figure out how it might be out of balance, I can't find any reason at all. If, however, the crank was used like a normal ICE, then I think it might be a different case (unless some sort of counter-balancing mechanism is used).. Danny Barrett. >It is theoretically possible to create a piston engine without >recriprocating parts. The cylinders (I would use a radial design) rotate >around a central axis The pistons and connecting rods each rotate around >an axis that is offset from the central axis by a distance of one half >the stroke of the engine. Each of the two assemblies would rotate in a >balanced fashion. > >I'm not quite certain what you mean by "perfect dynamic balance", but the >point is that the piston isn't being forced to acellerate and decellerate >some 2000 - 14000 times a minute. They are simply rotating around a >fixed point. They'll tilt back and forth a bit relative to the >connecting rod, and the rotational velocity of the connecting rod and >piston will go up and down slightly, but this is nothing compared to the >constant wobbling back and forth that occurs in a standard piston engine. > >If you wanted to make such an engine (valving might be a challenge), you >could go with heavy pistons if you want. After all, they aren't forced >to bounce up and down all the time. > >Ray Drouillard > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 07:13:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07583 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:13:06 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07579 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:13:02 -0400 Received: from pclab28.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab28.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.128]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA22563 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:13:01 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 21:13:01 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805071113.VAA22563@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: map sensor replacement X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Have you tried a wrecker (or whatever they call them wherever you are)???? >Does anyone know where I could find an off the shelf map sensor with >a 0 to 5v output? > >thanks, walter > > From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 08:13:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08745 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:13:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [207.25.206.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08741 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:13:21 -0400 Received: from dilbert (pix-200.nordson.com [207.206.59.200]) by users.qual.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/CICnet/IAG) with SMTP id IAA00474 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <009901bd79b1$060009c0$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> From: "Gary Derian" To: Subject: Re: Boingers Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 07:58:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu All this talk about balance and efficiency has little meaning. Reciprocating motion is not necessarily wastful. When one piston slows down, another is speeding up. The net result is a flywheel. A rotating radial engine would be impractical and offer no benefits. Piston inertia is useful in counteracting gas pressure forces and actually reducing bearing loads. A Wankle engine's displacement, say the Mazda 1.3 liter, is really mis measured. For every crankshaft revolution, a 4 stroke piston engine pumps 1/2 its measured displacement. A Wankle pumps all of it. To compare the two directly, the Wankle engine's displacement must be doubled. But even that doesn't matter. The important parameters of an engine are Specific Fuel Consumption, Specific Weight, Cost, Emissions and Longevity. Displacement is only an artificial measure used by racing organizations to equalize classes (doesn't work very well) and governments (not USA) to assess taxes. Wankles are great for high power per size, no valves to get in the way of flow, lots of rpm (don't forget the rotor rpm is geared up 3x) but as Raymond pointed out, by the time a whole car is built, there is not much advantage. Gary Derian From: Robert Humphris >The point with the Wankel is that it is a 1.3, where as a Camaro is >what, 3 times that displacement? Yet they have similar performance. Add >that to the weight of the engine, which does add to the performance of >the car ( less weight = better power to weight ratio, and better >handling as the car ceases to be engine heavy, so you start getting >easier moments of force on the car ). >Lets compare like for like, I guarentee that if you added sufficent >number of rotors to take the displacement to that of the Camaro, fuel >injected it, you would be unable to out drag it. Then if you take the >same displacement as the Saturn ( What is one of these we don't have >that model over here in the UK ) and put it in a similar weight car, >that the engine would be just as lively, and the performance would be as >good if not better as the weight would be less. > >Two stroke direct injection engines? We will see what they are like >when they are mass produced. > >Rob Humphris >> >>I'm not talking about specialized racing applications, or even how many >>people it takes to pick it up. I understand that the power/weight ratio >>is better than a four-stroke piston engine. I'm talking about what sells >>cars. Go down to your favorite Mazda dealer and drive one. Yah, it's >>pretty fast and gets decent mileage. Now, go to a Chevy dealer and hop >>into a Camaro Z28. It'll blow the doors of the RX7, and the mileage >>still isn't that bad. Now, go hop into a Saturn twin cam. Much better >>mileage and not too shabby on the performance. >> >>My point is that the mileage/performance balance isn't significently (if >>at all) better than the other cars you can buy off the lot. If I have to >>swap an engine, I might appreciate that it is lighter. When I'm driving, >>I appreciate the performance of the car as a whole. >> >>There are some directly injected two-stroke engines on the drawing >>boards. I don't have the exact figures, but I would be willing to bet >>(if I were a betting man) that the power/weight ratio of these >>two-strokers will be similar to the Wankyl. They won't, however, suffer >>from the wierd-shaped combustion chamber and longevity of the Wankyl. >> >> From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 08:41:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09194 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:41:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from bert.acesag.auburn.edu (bert.acesag.auburn.edu [131.204.46.47]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09190 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:41:30 -0400 Received: from bert (bert [131.204.46.47]) by bert.acesag.auburn.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA24772 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:41:28 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 07:41:28 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gregory A. Parmer" X-Sender: gparmer@bert To: DIY-EFI Subject: Re: 747 bin file In-Reply-To: <35513DBC.3A498720@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Thu, 7 May 1998, Thomas Matthews wrote: > What is the asdu bin file that was posted on the FTP site recently > from? CID,trans, truck size (1/2,3/4,1 ton)... > Seems like it came out right at first glance... Good deal. I got it mail order style (from Peer's Used Auto Parts--thanks guys, if you're here). Also got a dizzy. Didn't get info on the ECM, but I think they're outta the same truck... ...the dizzy receipt reads "91 TGMC1500 8-350 (5.7L) 2500 series". I wouldn't guarantee anything, but they did say the ECM was out of a truck that had landed on its top. -greg From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 09:02:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09451 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:02:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail2.mailsorter.net (mail2.mailsorter.net [207.67.128.17] (may be forged)) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09446 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:02:34 -0400 Received: from paccomm ([163.125.16.131]) by mail2.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA20316 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 05:59:14 -0700 From: "Gwyn Reedy" To: Subject: Re: Boingers Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:57:24 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd79b7$aeab9b60$LocalHost@paccomm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I used to fly the Douglas C-124. Had 4 big radials 4360 cu in each, supercharged. If I recall correctly there were four rows of 9 cylinders (jugs). Gwyn Reedy Brandon, FL -----Original Message----- From: Jim Davies To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Boingers > > >On Wed, 6 May 1998, Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: > >> > > >> > > >I believe the British made an engine that did that. >> > > Yea, Aero engines... 12 cylinders ( or more ) with the prop bolted onto >> > > the cylinders, round and round they went, vroooom... all that air flow >> > > over the casing kept it nice and cool. Not much use in a car though. >> > >> > I must have missed that one in my searches...all the rotary engines I know >> > of were single row radials with 7 cylinders. Any more info on the 12 >> > cylinder [or more] item? >> > >> > Jim Davies >> >> >> they cam with 5, 6, 7, 9 cyl in one row >> or 2 row models up to 18 cyl >> not all of these are rotaing block types >> most were rotating crank >> >Who made the 2 row rotary? > > > From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 09:57:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10201 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:57:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10197 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:57:09 -0400 Received: from gwp5 (user-38h1shb.dialup.mindspring.com [209.16.242.43]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA30567 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:57:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980507085717.00c5d428@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: pblewis@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 08:57:17 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Bruce Lewis Subject: Re: Boingers In-Reply-To: <009901bd79b1$060009c0$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 07:58 AM 5/7/98 -0400, Gary Derian wrote: > >Wankles are great for high power per size, no valves to get in the way of >flow, lots of rpm (don't forget the rotor rpm is geared up 3x) but as >Raymond pointed out, by the time a whole car is built, there is not much >advantage. > >Gary Derian > Actually the Rotors are geared down by a factor of 3. For each revolution of the crank (eccentric shaft) each rotor orbits the shaft by 1/3. Hence if the shaft is turning at 6,000 rpm the rotors are orbiting at 2,000 rpm. This is why you have a combustion volume equal to the displacement of the rotors for one revolution of the shaft. Each rotor will disaplace 3 times it's volume per revolution of the rotor. For one revolution of the shaft one of the three faces of the rotor have a combustion cycle. Thus on a rotary the combustion volume per revolution equals the displacement and a piston engine is 1/2 it's displacement. If the rotors were geared up you would have a combustion displacement equal to 3 times the displacement or 6 times that of a piston engine. Bruce Lewis From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 10:07:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10328 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:07:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10324 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:07:03 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp5-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.54]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA06354 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:04:16 -0400 Message-ID: <3551C100.661D@huron.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:11:12 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Boingers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Robert Humphris wrote: > > The point with the Wankel is that it is a 1.3, where as a Camaro is > what, 3 times that displacement? Yet they have similar performance. Add > that to the weight of the engine, which does add to the performance of > the car ( less weight = better power to weight ratio, and better > handling as the car ceases to be engine heavy, so you start getting > easier moments of force on the car ). > Lets compare like for like, I guarentee that if you added sufficent > number of rotors to take the displacement to that of the Camaro, fuel > injected it, you would be unable to out drag it. Then if you take the > same displacement as the Saturn ( What is one of these we don't have > that model over here in the UK ) and put it in a similar weight car, > that the engine would be just as lively, and the performance would be as > good if not better as the weight would be less. > > Two stroke direct injection engines? We will see what they are like > when they are mass produced. > > Rob Humphris > > > >I'm not talking about specialized racing applications, or even how many > >people it takes to pick it up. I understand that the power/weight ratio > >is better than a four-stroke piston engine. I'm talking about what sells > >cars. Go down to your favorite Mazda dealer and drive one. Yah, it's > >pretty fast and gets decent mileage. Now, go to a Chevy dealer and hop > >into a Camaro Z28. It'll blow the doors of the RX7, and the mileage > >still isn't that bad. Now, go hop into a Saturn twin cam. Much better > >mileage and not too shabby on the performance. > > > >My point is that the mileage/performance balance isn't significently (if > >at all) better than the other cars you can buy off the lot. If I have to > >swap an engine, I might appreciate that it is lighter. When I'm driving, > >I appreciate the performance of the car as a whole. > > > >There are some directly injected two-stroke engines on the drawing > >boards. I don't have the exact figures, but I would be willing to bet > >(if I were a betting man) that the power/weight ratio of these > >two-strokers will be similar to the Wankyl. They won't, however, suffer > >from the wierd-shaped combustion chamber and longevity of the Wankyl. > > > > With the Wankel you have to compare to a two stroke, not a 4 stroke. Compare 1.3 litres to 2.6, and things start to even out.When you get 125HP out of 600cc, normally aspirtated and carbureted 3 cyl water cooled 2 stroker weighing less than 75 lbs, that translates to better than 250 for 1.3 litres. Power domes (higher compression) and pipes can easily put the 600 over 180HP - thats pushing 400 for 1.3 liters, and you are not even getting tricky yet. Old Felix had a good and novel idea - but it has not panned out as well as he hoped. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 10:08:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10363 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:08:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from b137a5.hacc.edu (b137a5.hacc.edu [199.254.212.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10359 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:08:14 -0400 Received: by b137a5.hacc.edu from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Thu, 07 May 1998 10:17:59 -0400 Received: by b137a5.hacc.edu from alsites.hacc.edu (199.254.212.150::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.6); Thu, 07 May 1998 10:17:57 -0400 From: "Al Sites" To: Subject: Re: Boingers Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:06:33 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd79c1$57491be0$96d4fec7@alsites.hacc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu With the Mazda rotary for each turn of the eccentric shaft the rotor only turns 1/3 of a rev. Al Sites 83 RX-7 GSL -----Original Message----- From: Gary Derian To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thursday, May 07, 1998 9:26 AM Subject: Re: Boingers >All this talk about balance and efficiency has little meaning. >Reciprocating motion is not necessarily wastful. When one piston slows >down, another is speeding up. The net result is a flywheel. A rotating >radial engine would be impractical and offer no benefits. Piston inertia is >useful in counteracting gas pressure forces and actually reducing bearing >loads. > >A Wankle engine's displacement, say the Mazda 1.3 liter, is really mis >measured. For every crankshaft revolution, a 4 stroke piston engine pumps >1/2 its measured displacement. A Wankle pumps all of it. To compare the >two directly, the Wankle engine's displacement must be doubled. But even >that doesn't matter. The important parameters of an engine are Specific >Fuel Consumption, Specific Weight, Cost, Emissions and Longevity. >Displacement is only an artificial measure used by racing organizations to >equalize classes (doesn't work very well) and governments (not USA) to >assess taxes. > >Wankles are great for high power per size, no valves to get in the way of >flow, lots of rpm (don't forget the rotor rpm is geared up 3x) but as >Raymond pointed out, by the time a whole car is built, there is not much >advantage. > >Gary Derian > >From: Robert Humphris > > >>The point with the Wankel is that it is a 1.3, where as a Camaro is >>what, 3 times that displacement? Yet they have similar performance. Add >>that to the weight of the engine, which does add to the performance of >>the car ( less weight = better power to weight ratio, and better >>handling as the car ceases to be engine heavy, so you start getting >>easier moments of force on the car ). >>Lets compare like for like, I guarentee that if you added sufficent >>number of rotors to take the displacement to that of the Camaro, fuel >>injected it, you would be unable to out drag it. Then if you take the >>same displacement as the Saturn ( What is one of these we don't have >>that model over here in the UK ) and put it in a similar weight car, >>that the engine would be just as lively, and the performance would be as >>good if not better as the weight would be less. >> >>Two stroke direct injection engines? We will see what they are like >>when they are mass produced. >> >>Rob Humphris >>> >>>I'm not talking about specialized racing applications, or even how many >>>people it takes to pick it up. I understand that the power/weight ratio >>>is better than a four-stroke piston engine. I'm talking about what sells >>>cars. Go down to your favorite Mazda dealer and drive one. Yah, it's >>>pretty fast and gets decent mileage. Now, go to a Chevy dealer and hop >>>into a Camaro Z28. It'll blow the doors of the RX7, and the mileage >>>still isn't that bad. Now, go hop into a Saturn twin cam. Much better >>>mileage and not too shabby on the performance. >>> >>>My point is that the mileage/performance balance isn't significently (if >>>at all) better than the other cars you can buy off the lot. If I have to >>>swap an engine, I might appreciate that it is lighter. When I'm driving, >>>I appreciate the performance of the car as a whole. >>> >>>There are some directly injected two-stroke engines on the drawing >>>boards. I don't have the exact figures, but I would be willing to bet >>>(if I were a betting man) that the power/weight ratio of these >>>two-strokers will be similar to the Wankyl. They won't, however, suffer >>>from the wierd-shaped combustion chamber and longevity of the Wankyl. >>> >>> From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 10:09:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10398 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:09:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from jester.ti.com (jester.ti.com [192.94.94.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10392 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:09:40 -0400 Received: from reliant.micro.ti.com ([158.218.63.15]) by jester.ti.com (8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28852 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:09:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from aspc0756.micro.ti.com (aspc0756.micro.ti.com [158.218.48.41]) by reliant.micro.ti.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06061 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:08:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980507141129.006bbe1c@pcmail.micro.ti.com> X-Sender: jpfa@pcmail.micro.ti.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 09:11:29 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: James Paul Subject: FORD EEC IV information Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Scott, I was asking around about FORD EEC IV system algorithims and how they work. Such as what inputs are looked at, and what values of those inputs cause a given output action, etc., etc. I want to know this information because I have two vehicles, both use the EEC IV and SEFI, and I want to be able to understand, troubleshoot and repair these vehicles myself. I started study- ing this system due to a minor problem with one of the vehicles, and have become more intrigued the further I get into it. It is absolutely facinating how these components all work together to control all the different systems on a modern auto, and to work in such harmony is great. Someone gave me a copy of your email address,and said that you said that if there are any questions about FORD, let you know as you were a FORD tech before going independent. so I thought I'd inquire. Anyway, my question to you is do you or can you get the the algorithims used in the EEC IV ECM, and if so, could I get a copy. Again, this information will be used exclusively by myself for study and Repair & Maintenance purposes. Any help you could afford would be greatly appreciated. By the way, I have the Probst book on FORD fuel injection and performance tuning. In there, he gives the basic strategies for the different engine operating scenarios, but I want something a little more in depth and on the software side of things. My main purpose is to be able to possibly check a few sensor outputs and be able to figure what a given output should be. Knowing this, I can then measure the outputs and see if all is as it should be. If not, I'll know a little better where to look for the problem. Also, if you have any information on what are the most likely causes for each of the different fault codes, I'd appreciate your input in that area too. I hope you can help me out here. I'll be awaiting your reply. You can email me at either of the following email addresses...... JPFA@msg.ti.com -or- j-paul2@ti.com Thanks for listening to my request. Thanks and Regards, Jim Paul From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 10:28:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10646 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:28:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (qmailr@pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10641 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:28:13 -0400 Received: (qmail 689 invoked from network); 7 May 1998 08:28:10 -0600 Received: from ts6-38.rpt.cyberhighway.net (209.161.38.164) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 7 May 1998 08:28:10 -0600 Received: by ts6-38.rpt.cyberhighway.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7991.874FBA90@ts6-38.rpt.cyberhighway.net>; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:24:18 -0700 Message-ID: <01BD7991.874FBA90@ts6-38.rpt.cyberhighway.net> From: Mike Jones To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: High MPG Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:24:14 -0700 Encoding: 47 TEXT, 64 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Check out http://www.gas-turbines.com/hobby/nye.htm Even has sound available. I was on the mailing list for a while -- lots of fun. The hot ticket right now is so-called micro turbines. Several companies are gearing up to supply the 'distributed generation' market, i.e. a power station on the roof of every Burger King. (Seems like a dumb idea to me, but with companies such as Enron pushing the concept it'll likely happen to some degree or other.) These little screamers generate up to 200kw or so at about 30% cycle efficiency. Several of them use air bearings. The next step in large CTs is steam-cooled components (so called 'G-class' technology) which will allow firing temps of 2600 deg. F. Current technology allows 2300 degree firing temps. Actually, 'current technology' ('F-class) is viewed by many within the industry to be a giant R&D project funded by the insurance companies. When one of the 'F class' machines breaks, the insurance companies pay the business interruption claim... Fuel cells will have a big impact -- A 2.0 MW demonstration project recently ended a successful two-year run -- but gas turbines will continue to see use in power stations because of the steam production possible from the exhaust stream. My plant, for example, has a total net cycle efficiency of about 68% including electricity and steam sold to a potato processor. For automotive use gas turbines are clearly a bust due to lousy part-load heat rate. Until fuel cells achieve acceptance, the good old ICE is still hard to beat... Mike J. Jake Lindeke wrote: > Have any of you seen those people that make jet engines from turbos? > One of them used an Air/Oil emulsion for bearing lubrication. No > additional modifications were needed for the turbo, but I couldn't see > this as being all that usable on a car or bike... where would you put the > compressor? I made a Turbine Jet, but cant think what you are talking about. Could you get a picture for us to look at? --Jake Lindeke --SOGI South-East Chapter Coordinator --http://sesogi.bsfh.org>> begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A(/`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X` M'PP!````&0```')M:F]N97- 8WEB97)H:6=H=V%Y+FYE= `````#``80R2H% MJ0,`!Q!P!@``'@`($ $```!E````0TA%0TM/551(5%10.B\O5U=71T%3+515 M4D))3D530T]-+TA/0D)9+TY914A4345614Y(05-33U5.1$%604E,04),14E7 M05-/3E1(14U!24Q)3D=,25-41D]205=(24Q%+2U,3P`````"`0D0`0```.8& M``#B!@``J H``$Q:1G5VRW&Y_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0"`&-H"L!S M971N,@8`!L,"@S(#Q0(`<%QR<1(@!Q,"@S,/>FA$96P#($1L9P*#-.L#QA/H M-18]?0J ",\)V0\"@ J!#;$+8&YG,3!>,Q2 "PH74@P!8PW@(*)#%5!C:R ( M8'0*A8)H`D!P.B\O=QXP0"YG87,M= AP8@L+@ >0+@6@;2]H;P!B8GDO;GEE M+LD=P&T@(%!%=@GP'; )'H @P`V C2-S)V3[)%$%$&(=,"E1*_ ?`"K0JR>@`B G([%R)]$L**#V+B ` M),%P*( $D"$``9!_+K(C1@-@)=$ET2JB+2!"MPAP*_ %P$LD`2IA* 9@/&5M M!" C\"?0),%D=?\&T"B@#; DT"RA!X O<"WQ_2,`:2. *PDLT!&P(6 $((Q% M;@-@`Z!P=7,E`,;YC)2$-P2>P") W\'DJ:5\ET2.! M($ W(#.Q:07 8L\L!"I2)D\H8&5X!4 D8+\X$"B@`Z +8#)1'+!4!"#_*+(N M$#Q0*0`Q8"E"*Q("()L)\"6A*#XQ*14G1RD`?PM@!! N\"X0$; HL"DA>2]P)\YC2^\N\#,`)T9'I#L0_2BQ M=@B0," A4!^P([$?X/\U,T11(X(+@#/P+;$M(2G &T'@),%G!S!,(5(F1/LO M\ -@:@60)'$A,5)$4V3?+- JT#?Q*P@J85<54##"]SIA0/,M<$8K`$?$`,$W M0>4'D6(\,6MS+W!6?RM%_PJP+20M\ "0'P%%`0(P!)#>4]D"X<2G7230WT2>@;@I0+)._.E%!8D11, M:(06084%BOUBE15-5 M0C/P3S!C`V\$$/\MX"4A`U(C[R2B'3 #<"60:6"A M06)FR_\KLC]1"L M$6#1;:(S\&A33QC -R!N@0K ="T8P&'?(5 54#YA//(J M855H`0,@_R8`7Z=9PBJA?;$X`E<"6J2.9S%@(5!TTDE#14447V!$"R!4)"Z@ M7G]-,Y)*9R(-"O0C\#$X/; "`&GP+3$T- WP#-"$PPM9?#$V''(*H -@2"$% M0$KK6G CH$Q3H64GT!N?'*![(P"&LCJ%?X:(@N^#\S,?2P`+1A8B'%2&ESX@ M2/=@DU+!)=%Y"&!HDB-B;%#[(Z Y4&]OD2-Q/F$`P#.A_U6 !4 )\%2P6@)L MU![!;%#V/PJ%CG!/6'=!0R%1`Z#R04&P+T\#$3- 95 `D.\C42220>4D,'5: M0">P+J/Y*F%.;Y+7>\ MD"ZR*N'_!&$&D):U8!$$D$.2"8 I47\DDB."DF,T MY"+P!:!E4&3_+N!#X0G@DM=3$2N1:B(D`O\I(9"D-R APB-")- I$#J1_T'! M,Y&!823AF:)ED)O!CT/_-Q G@150DMQ(*P M+U+_-0(I$$PB-T$=`"3P/F&/4OLKLG!A:YV3/J(J8 A1H*7_*_"+%R_A)[ > ML4X1!;$W(/UZM&\=`"Z@DL8E4(A!;#[ Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11037 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:42:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (qmailr@pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11033 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:42:24 -0400 Received: (qmail 3883 invoked from network); 7 May 1998 08:42:23 -0600 Received: from ts6-38.rpt.cyberhighway.net (209.161.38.164) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 7 May 1998 08:42:23 -0600 Received: by ts6-38.rpt.cyberhighway.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7993.820F34F0@ts6-38.rpt.cyberhighway.net>; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:38:28 -0700 Message-ID: <01BD7993.820F34F0@ts6-38.rpt.cyberhighway.net> From: Mike Jones To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: 747 meet 730, 730 meet 165 Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:38:25 -0700 Encoding: 11 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Some models of industrial pressure/vacuum transmitters use a variable capacitor as the sensor. Is that perhaps how a typical MAP works? Mike J. > I think the sensors that get gnd and +5v such as the map and tps (not > the [heated] O2) can be shared. I don't think they rely on a resistor > divider arrangement like the coolant temp sensor. The map on my '92 GM > truck even appears to have an internal amplifier/buffer (can't measure > resistance, but give it gnd and +5v and a voltage that changes with > vacuum comes out [no pullup needed]). From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 10:56:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11385 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:56:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [207.25.206.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11380 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:56:57 -0400 Received: from dilbert (pix-200.nordson.com [207.206.59.200]) by users.qual.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/CICnet/IAG) with SMTP id KAA15283 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00ff01bd79c7$e01ece50$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> From: "Gary Derian" To: Subject: Re: Boingers Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:52:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks, Bruce, I meant to say the crankshaft (wobble shaft?) is geared up 3x. Gary Derian From: Bruce Lewis >At 07:58 AM 5/7/98 -0400, Gary Derian wrote: > >>(don't forget the rotor rpm is geared up 3x) >> >>Gary Derian >> >Actually the Rotors are geared down by a factor of 3. >Bruce Lewis From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 11:22:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12160 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:22:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from bert.acesag.auburn.edu (bert.acesag.auburn.edu [131.204.46.47]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12155 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:21:57 -0400 Received: from bert (bert [131.204.46.47]) by bert.acesag.auburn.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA04224 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:21:55 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:21:54 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gregory A. Parmer" X-Sender: gparmer@bert To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: map sensor replacement In-Reply-To: <35517091.BE1AC9@brokersys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Thu, 7 May 1998, Walter wrote: > Does anyone know where I could find an off the shelf map sensor with > a 0 to 5v output? I'm not sure I understand the question...the map sensors I've got (GM) require GND and 5v inputs and the output is sumthin in the middle. Works just like the TPS but measures a different parameter. The junker wanted $15! Not sure about the parts house price, yet. I think there are MAPs for NA cars and different ones for turbos. The pressure range is different, but the output is still 0-5v. Thats already more than I know. Corrections welcome, -greg From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 11:56:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12966 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:56:03 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from hpnfssvr.mdhc.mdc.com (hpnfssvr.PHX.AZ.BOEING.COM [130.38.244.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12961 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:55:59 -0400 Received: from hprs9.mdhc.mdc.com (tc75918@hprs9.mdhc.mdc.com [130.38.233.24]) by hpnfssvr.mdhc.mdc.com with ESMTP (8.7.6/8.7.3) id IAA27880 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:56:45 -0700 (MST) Received: (from tc75918@localhost) by hprs9.mdhc.mdc.com (8.7.6/8.7.1) id IAA10390 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:56:44 -0700 (MST) From: d houlton x0710 Message-Id: <199805071556.IAA10390@hprs9.mdhc.mdc.com> Subject: Re: Boingers To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:56:44 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <01bd7901$193d0700$0100007f@zippy> from "M&D" at May 6, 98 11:10:25 am Organization: McDonnell Douglas Helicopter X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu M&D wrote: > > You can block off the oil injection and premix, use a small efi pump and > 2-cycle oil to feed a relocated oil metering pump, whatever. Racing rotaries > go to extremes and therefore their engineering solutions can be extreme too. > This really screws up the emissions on a street car, and can clog your cat > converter. The stock cats are very prone to clogging anyway, and > restrictive. That's why you can see almost 40% power increase just from > upgrading the exhaust. BTW, I have a combined total of 400,000 miles on 3 > rotary engines and have never had carbon fouling problems, at least that I > could see with a borescope. > > To the person claiming no significant performance or mileage benefit from a > rotary: (with aftermarket exhaust) 225 HP at the flywheel, naturally > aspirated, in 1.3 liters of displacement in a 2500 lb. car. 18-25 mpg > depending on driving style. The mpg is similar to a V8, as is the power, but > a 13B engine can be easily lifted by 2 men (about 300 lbs., with all the > accessories still attached). That alone is a significant advantage over a > V8. With attached turbo, rotaries are reliably running up to 400 hp on the > street. Mileage remains similar. Can you say that for a 400HP piston engine? > > Mind you all, I have nothing against piston engines, it's just that they are > WAY antiquated and it's time we come up with something else. I personally > favor a small turbine running a generator, and thence electric motors. Like > the APU from an airplane, but smaller. Piston engines have so much friction > and reciprocating loss it's just unbelievable. Have you seen the rotary that Moller International has been working on? He's been at it for like 20 years or something. I think his is based off of an OMC outboard design. Anyways, he's supposed to have some kind of super-duper proprietary seals and coatings that solve the seal and emission problems. Take a look-see. Could be all hype, but I think he got some kind of grant from NASA so there may be something to it. http://www.moller.com/~mi/frames.htm --Dan From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 13:19:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14352 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 13:19:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14347 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 13:19:21 -0400 Received: from scottmo (pdx57-i48-35.teleport.com [204.202.167.113]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA20805 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3551ECDD.255F@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:18:21 -0700 From: "Scott Mo." X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: map sensor replacement References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Motorola makes some nice pressure sensors, the MPX4250AP is designed for turbo charged vehicles, 0.2-5 V output. MPX4100AP I believe is used for the Naturally Aspirated vehicles. Thse cost somewhere between $15-40 but I have had some trouble getting them reliably. Go to http://mot2.indirect.com/senseon/pressure.html for more info. HTH Scott Mo. 1989 200TQ 1988 5000TQ 1966 VW Beetle http://www.teleport.com/~scottmo From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 13:20:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14386 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 13:20:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from svn.net (thergen@svn1.svn.net [207.48.84.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14382 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 13:20:57 -0400 Received: from localhost (thergen@localhost) by svn.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28550 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:20:08 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:20:08 -0700 (PDT) From: T Hergen To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: map sensor replacement In-Reply-To: <35517091.BE1AC9@brokersys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The map from a Chevy '92 S10 4.3L vin W has a 0 - 5v map output. It is not like the passive potentiometer of the common GM tps. It appears to have some active buffering (likely an op amp). Resistance measurements are futile, but it does produce a varying voltage output with vacuum if you give it gnd and +5v on the appropriate terminals. The only caveat is that this particular sensor mounts directly to the intake manifold. Depending on your application, you may want one that mounts on the firewall and has a barb for a vacuum hose. Tom On Thu, 7 May 1998, Walter wrote: > Does anyone know where I could find an off the shelf map sensor with > a 0 to 5v output? > > thanks, walter > From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 14:46:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15545 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 14:46:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15541 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 14:46:11 -0400 Received: from 205.215.232.12 (surf12.cruzers.com [205.215.232.12]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA29197 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35520E4C.5FE6@cruzers.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 11:41:32 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diy_efi Subject: Re: Misc 101 Information Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > what processor is run in the thing? > > The 1227747 is in the C-3 generation of gm ecm's which all use, > a Motorola 6809 type of device, and the newer P-4's use a 68HC11 > type. The "type" is that, it is to gm specs, and there are small > differences from a ecm processor to a off the self device, as I > understand things. Not a 6809! In it's day, the 6809 was a far too high end processor to show up in an engine controller. (The 6809 is partially source code compatible with the 6800/6801/68HC11, but not object code compatible.) The C3's use something like a 6801. A real 6801 is a 6800 with some extra instructions, ROM, RAM, and IO all in a 40 pin DIP. GM's chip is just the 6801 CPU core in a 40 pin DIP using a pinout very similar to a 6800 CPU. unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; Ludis Langens return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + ludis@cruzers.com (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 15:04:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15758 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 15:04:47 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15753 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 15:04:43 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA10746 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 12:01:49 -0700 Received: from p57108.syspac.com (p57108.syspac.com [204.181.57.108]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10736 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 12:01:47 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805071901.MAA10736@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:27:02 +0000 Subject: Re: map sensor replacement Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I think Newark electronics has the motorola line.Search the Web for sensors. From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 15:06:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15795 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 15:06:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15791 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 15:06:43 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA11042 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 12:03:50 -0700 Received: from p57125.syspac.com (p57125.syspac.com [204.181.57.125]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA11028 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 12:03:48 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805071903.MAA11028@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:29:13 +0000 Subject: Re: map sensor replacement Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I think Newark electronics has the motorola line.Search the Web for sensors. From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 15:58:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16531 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 15:58:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16525 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 15:58:34 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-48.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.66]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id PAA01431 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 15:57:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: map sensor replacement Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:59:03 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd79f2$95771da0$42198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Walter To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thursday, May 07, 1998 5:20 AM Subject: map sensor replacement >Does anyone know where I could find an off the shelf map sensor with >a 0 to 5v output? > >thanks, walter > The General (motors) offers three 1 bar, normal atmospheric pressure, a 2 bar for turbo applications (up to 14.7 psi boost) used on syclones/tyfoons/sunbird turbos, and a 3 bar used on 89 Turbo Trans-Ams. A 87-91 GM Pickup (v-8) uses the one bar, and easy to find. Also used on 90-92 F-bodies (Cam/F-Bird). Any NA TBI as a matter of fact (gm). Bruce From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 17:03:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17333 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:03:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from buffy.tpgi.com.au (buffy.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17329 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:03:49 -0400 Received: (from smtpd@localhost) by buffy.tpgi.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA21646 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:04:22 +1000 Received: from gou-ppp-073.tpgi.com.au(203.29.140.73), claiming to be "acer-p166" via SMTP by buffy.tpgi.com.au, id smtpda21621; Fri May 8 07:04:11 1998 Message-ID: <35522304.F90@tpgi.com.au> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 07:09:24 +1000 From: Justin Albury X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. References: <199805062156.RAA41910@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Paul Tholey wrote: > > Where the h*ll can I get that K*ck *ss TPI intake in the Holdens? I am serious! > > Paul Tholey which one of the intakes would you like??? Holden ran 2 from the factory. one was for the every day normal production tpi which with a little p&p was good for around 250kw and the other is the monster off the group-A it is a twin t-bodie setup with a huge plemin chamber with stright runners that if you shine a light down the runner you can see the valve and up the top end are some s/steel trumpets which with little mods can be made adjustable........these little babys are good for 400kw now that is 500hp+ std t-bodies are 1000cfm and they ran bosch green injectors with a delco p4 808 ecm :-) apar from that they are also made after market by motec in a twin t-body that lays flat with curved runners to fit under the hood. ill scan some pic's on the weekend when i get my scanner back and mail em to the list. justin From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 19:08:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18324 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:08:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18320 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:07:59 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-50.brokersys.com [209.113.60.51]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15316 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:10:14 -0500 Message-ID: <35523A65.BF8A5E9F@brokersys.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 17:49:09 -0500 From: Walter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: map sensor replacement-2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks for all you replies. The sensor has to be mounted on a circuit board and uses 5v power. It goes in a fuel injection brain from a Jaguar XJS ( the brain goes in the trunk and there is a vacuum hose from it ALL the way to the engine compartment!). I would prefer not to have to go to the junk yard every time I need one. I did search the 'net' but I don't think I did it thoroughly enough.Will try again later. I did find an intersesting site: http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Div/apd/english/products/engine.html#04 The Motorola part sound promising. Walter From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 19:10:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18348 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:10:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18343 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:10:06 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Fri, 08 May 98 09:10:31 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7A60.F29BFC80@PJARAMAZ >; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:09:04 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7A60.F29BFC80@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Boingers Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:09:03 +1000 Encoding: 60 TEXT, 70 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I'd argue the Wankel is equivalent to 1.3L (i.e a 13B Mazda) It fires each chamber/rotor 3 times per revolution and hence completes a full combustion cycle once for each revolution, much like a 2 stroke. A conventional 4 stroke needs a 2 revolution "window" for a complete combustion cycle. The Wankel has effectively double the capacity for its swept volume when comparing to an equivalent 4 stroke engine simply because it can induce and burn twice its capacity compared to the same sized 4 stroke. Peter ---------- From: Robert Humphris Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 6:42 PM To: 'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Subject: RE: Boingers The point with the Wankel is that it is a 1.3, where as a Camaro is what, 3 times that displacement? Yet they have similar performance. Add that to the weight of the engine, which does add to the performance of the car ( less weight = better power to weight ratio, and better handling as the car ceases to be engine heavy, so you start getting easier moments of force on the car ). Lets compare like for like, I guarentee that if you added sufficent number of rotors to take the displacement to that of the Camaro, fuel injected it, you would be unable to out drag it. Then if you take the same displacement as the Saturn ( What is one of these we don't have that model over here in the UK ) and put it in a similar weight car, that the engine would be just as lively, and the performance would be as good if not better as the weight would be less. Two stroke direct injection engines? We will see what they are like when they are mass produced. Rob Humphris > >I'm not talking about specialized racing applications, or even how many >people it takes to pick it up. I understand that the power/weight ratio >is better than a four-stroke piston engine. I'm talking about what sells >cars. Go down to your favorite Mazda dealer and drive one. Yah, it's >pretty fast and gets decent mileage. Now, go to a Chevy dealer and hop >into a Camaro Z28. It'll blow the doors of the RX7, and the mileage >still isn't that bad. Now, go hop into a Saturn twin cam. Much better >mileage and not too shabby on the performance. > >My point is that the mileage/performance balance isn't significently (if >at all) better than the other cars you can buy off the lot. If I have to >swap an engine, I might appreciate that it is lighter. When I'm driving, >I appreciate the performance of the car as a whole. > >There are some directly injected two-stroke engines on the drawing >boards. I don't have the exact figures, but I would be willing to bet >(if I were a betting man) that the power/weight ratio of these >two-strokers will be similar to the Wankyl. They won't, however, suffer >from the wierd-shaped combustion chamber and longevity of the Wankyl. > > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@07`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X` M'PP!````&0```'!J87)A;6%Z0&EN9V5N:6-O+F-O;2YA=0`````#``80'?-L M3P,`!Q"E" ``'@`($ $```!E````241!4D=5151(15=!3DM%3$E315%5259! M3$5.5%1/,3-,*$E%03$S0DU!6D1!*4E41DE215-%04-(0TA!34)%4B]23U1/ M4C-424U%4U!%4E)%5D],551)3TY!3D1(14Y#14-/30`````"`0D0`0```-<' M``#3!P``= X``$Q:1G7H1UFG_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0"`&-H"L!S M973N,@8`!L,"@S(#Q@<3`H.Z,Q,-?0J ",\)V3L5_W@R-34"@ J!#;$+8&[P M9S$P,Q0@"PH2\@P!@F,`0"!))V0@"L"B9PI0('1H&V!7`' ,:V4#( 0`(&5Q M=1QI=@= "? %0'1O( `Q+C-,("AI+B4;8&$=,#-"!=!A>EAD82D*A0J%205 M9LYI%@`<00#0:" 1L0;0W020+P-@'1 %P#,;< =SJG $D" 6`'8&\'4A8)L" M(!L0;AL`&Y!N8QM@/06@;0M0$@`'D1W@9G5&; ,@(U%B=7,B8V/T>6,!D(](2((TB"2(#\"+ ;W C5B1?*% >K%0;F!' M'QQ!#= %D"%@*,!L>2!-*X!U`F ;9&-A"K!C?&ET,% EPC%P!" #X&7G!3$B M(@> ('<'DF\!Y ,% P`C$=4";P,P$6`!L0_2/20R" "L =($:W,P!2@.\F M\"%&7.-0X',+42,@!X#Q`C _(%D2`!MR,% 1P/\HP#7R`Q *P2'!)<$#@2,@ M\3O!061D"H5(X@"! *X CPF00.A9C*>]E MP60W,0(%P"@G4 >0!"#]964]-F$"0"'16U R0&2!^QT@965R4H B<";P-]-K M`_\*A1' (L G8#/!+X%I=B,@_R^ 8&(=(""@-88;D&)@2V'Z0A@)^$* MP 5 5]#_`D SL0J%;S$(D2<``W !Q`F=Q.?%S=0W0.('[`C *A6XR MP""A9<(@XV]S_P&0)X$;@F#J.A1=`6757K3_)O D$!P`"H4+@%4R.?$Q<"LF M\'$"=PA@;&SR('7_*2 PHQT@"&!@P6Q@,] Q M(K,+@!MS54MTH"*C<(#QWUTR(I%BEV5E:;$L9#MF%_U_J&HDH5Y2)V P(FRT M9^YG?[9VF(L%EU5+^6$OACV:T19VF)+$D,00`^XXY'0)^ 1P&+>8C!0= 5C M*IVN33!06U3[7+:["2]H*KU &.$XDKRC?0"09P,`>10P01V0:/8^^UT!!T!L MBA"HRAN"(/!>$?]IH@0@<0(W(B20PK$-T!MS^Q60@8))9>!W`&)3'1"[M_YW M,3 T$V95=P!BP&62H3'_EF$',"R17.DG8&61!) [P?^%D#,AGJ*PLC.QC%:> MD-",OV@.:6=>8S,`!O##[SXNP?]>,EXQ<-"#DY9B,$%^ISA@?U)"-4F%\GMD M;& K47(&/K\&X L1K=)W`(<89?1X`-#_'Y(;0!_1)O DD 5 =P!_M_^8(C.U M:O&=ILE1W[)>(VKC_S.R`X&*$*9O;!B&1YVFVF@_>L&8(V_!8J8Z)1O">6S_ M@90P4'^PAS$F\**1HD&,0-]XT\"(`U)E% B19%)0$<#_(< ;`"1J('0BHQ60 M5\'34/\Q@675Z'6=KE@?62X:-4"F"PJ%%2$`]# ``P`0$ `````#`!$0`P`` M`$ `!S" -W :#'J]`4 `"#" -W :#'J]`1X`/0`!````!0```%)%.B ````` *`P`--/TW``!A1GJ] ` end From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 20:09:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19180 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:09:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19175 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:09:37 -0400 Received: from main (alaint@ppp40.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.61]) by mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA27632 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 20:07:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Alain Toussaint X-Sender: alaint@main To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Re: map sensor replacement-2 In-Reply-To: <35523A65.BF8A5E9F@brokersys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >.........(the brain goes in the trunk and there is a vacuum hose from > it ALL the way to the engine compartment!)......... there must be some loss with a hose this lenght ?? i would prefer a intake mounted sensor with a wire the lenght of the car !! Alain From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 21:23:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20307 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:23:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20302 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:23:38 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp25.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.155]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA09276 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:23:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35525C72.8A48F3F5@mwt.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 20:14:27 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: map sensor replacement-2 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <35523A65.BF8A5E9F@brokersys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu F3 Haltech box uses the Motorola chip one for barometric pressure and one for map . I also have one that reads inches / water for home-brew flow bench. Very good parts. Steve Walter wrote: > Thanks for all you replies. > The sensor has to be mounted on a circuit board and uses 5v > power. It goes in a fuel injection brain from a Jaguar XJS ( > the brain goes in the trunk and there is a vacuum hose from > it ALL the way to the engine compartment!). > I would prefer not to have to go to the junk yard every time > I need one. I did search the 'net' but I don't think I did > it thoroughly enough.Will try again later. I did find an > intersesting site: > > http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Div/apd/english/products/engine.html#04 > > The Motorola part sound promising. > > Walter From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 21:33:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20505 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:33:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.wgn.net (root@mail.wgn.net [207.213.0.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20501 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:33:48 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (du154-pcap-nca01.wgn.net [207.213.5.154]) by mail.wgn.net (8.8.5-q-beta2/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA19715 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:33:47 -0700 Message-Id: <199805080133.SAA19715@mail.wgn.net> X-Sender: sganz@mail.wgn.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 18:36:52 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Sandy Subject: Linux Database In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Just got word that the database division of my company has just released the LINUX port of its SQL database, free I would expect for non-commercial, but it is a really good relational database. Check it out, and No, this is not an add, as the product is free to download ;-) www.interbase.com Sandy From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 21:52:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20905 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:52:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20900 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:52:34 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (bert-22.brokersys.com [209.113.62.214]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20916 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:54:53 -0500 Message-ID: <35526100.6D82D334@brokersys.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 20:33:52 -0500 From: Walter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: map sensor replacement-2 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Alain Toussaint wrote: > > >.........(the brain goes in the trunk and there is a vacuum hose from > > it ALL the way to the engine compartment!)......... > > > there must be some loss with a hose this lenght ?? > i would prefer a intake mounted sensor with a wire the lenght of the car > !! > > > Alain That's how they used to be in the 70's when Jaguars used Bosh fuel injection. In the 80's they let Lucas design their fuel injection...I think that was a mistake. Walter From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 22:03:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21022 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:03:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21013 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:02:56 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp14.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.144]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA14763 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:03:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <355265A5.85922F7C@mwt.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 20:53:42 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: map sensor replacement-2 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The F3 box has a 6 foot vacuum line from the box to intake . They just cal.out the error in the tables . Under the dash may be better or if the unit is very big, mount the map sensor under the dash and feed the voltage back to the cpu. Your way will work also. Have fun . Steve Alain Toussaint wrote: > >.........(the brain goes in the trunk and there is a vacuum hose from > > > it ALL the way to the engine compartment!)......... > > > there must be some loss with a hose this lenght ?? > i would prefer a intake mounted sensor with a wire the lenght of the > car > !! > > > Alain From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 22:07:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21085 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:07:41 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21081 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:07:40 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (pstn3-as1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.162]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA01754 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:04:52 -0400 Message-ID: <35526A02.52D8@huron.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 22:12:18 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: map sensor replacement-2 References: <35523A65.BF8A5E9F@brokersys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Walter wrote: > > Thanks for all you replies. > The sensor has to be mounted on a circuit board and uses 5v > power. It goes in a fuel injection brain from a Jaguar XJS ( > the brain goes in the trunk and there is a vacuum hose from > it ALL the way to the engine compartment!). > I would prefer not to have to go to the junk yard every time > I need one. I did search the 'net' but I don't think I did > it thoroughly enough.Will try again later. I did find an > intersesting site: > > http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Div/apd/english/products/engine.html#04 > > The Motorola part sound promising. > > Walter I have an idea. Remove the MAP from the circuit board, get rid of the LLOONNGG vacuum hose, and run a 3 conductor cord to the engine compartment. Drill the intake manifold to take one of the GM on-manifold map sensors, and you are off to the races - with a part that is as easy to get at as it is to get. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 22:15:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21220 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:15:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA21216 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:15:12 -0400 Received: from 351w from [207.136.46.141] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.237) with smtp for sender: <351w@airmail.net> id ; Thu, 7 May 98 21:15:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "Raymond Brantley" <351w@airmail.net> To: "DIY EFI List Rule" Subject: MAP Sensor Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 21:09:22 -0500 Message-ID: <000101bd7a26$50f19f00$8d2e88cf@351w> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all , I have a question. Ford MAP/BAP sensors produce a frequency relative to pressure. So you cannot just read the voltage like a TPS. You need a frequency meter. Are GM's different? Raymond Brantley From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 22:46:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21975 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:46:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21971 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:46:16 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA18365 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:46:15 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 19:47:03 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <362a70b9.268813125@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <35523A65.BF8A5E9F@brokersys.com> <35525C72.8A48F3F5@mwt.net> In-Reply-To: <35525C72.8A48F3F5@mwt.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id WAA21972 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Thu, 07 May 1998 20:14:27 -0500, Steven Gorkowski wrote: >F3 Haltech box uses the Motorola chip one for barometric pressure and >one for map . I also have one that reads inches / water for home-brew >flow bench. Very good parts. Whoa, I had no idea they went down that low. Could you mention what the part number is for the one that reads inches h2o? I've been looking for just such a sensor for just the same app; I'd like to build me own flow bench too! I've looked at the water manometers and somehow hoped there'd be a more modern alternative. Sounds like you've found it. Maybe if you have a moment, you could also mention what the CFM/waterColumn range of your bench that you built is. TIA Garfield From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 23:07:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22562 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:07:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22551 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:07:14 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA4772 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:04:21 -0700 Received: from p57111.syspac.com (p57111.syspac.com [204.181.57.111]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA04765 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:04:18 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805080304.UAA04765@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:12:29 +0000 Subject: Re: Return of the diy_EGOmeter (YES, it's finally ALIVE!!) Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gar for your test bench, dragon belchder, how about just firng an oxy-acetylene torch in the piece of pipe with the sensors. Bob McKnight Phx AZ From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 23:07:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22565 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:07:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22555 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:07:16 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA4778 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:04:22 -0700 Received: from p57111.syspac.com (p57111.syspac.com [204.181.57.111]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA04774 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:04:20 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805080304.UAA04774@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:12:29 +0000 Subject: Re: Return of the diy_EGOmeter (YES, it's finally ALIVE!!) Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gar for your test bench, dragon belchder, how about just firng an oxy-acetylene torch in the piece of pipe with the sensors. Bob McKnight Phx AZ From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 23:11:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22705 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:11:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22701 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:11:43 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (pstn3-as1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.162]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA04506 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:08:55 -0400 Message-ID: <35527907.73CB@huron.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 23:16:23 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: MAP Sensor References: <000101bd7a26$50f19f00$8d2e88cf@351w> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Raymond Brantley wrote: > > Hi all , I have a question. Ford MAP/BAP sensors produce a frequency > relative to pressure. So you cannot just read the voltage like a TPS. > You need a frequency meter. Are GM's different? > > Raymond Brantley Yes. In fact, sometimes the "frequency" type can be read with a voltmeter as well. If the pulse width is constant, and the frequency changes, simple integration with a R-C circuit will give you voltage. You might not even need integration. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 23:22:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22964 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:22:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from wolfenet.com (root@frapp.wolfe.net [207.178.61.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22957 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:22:21 -0400 Received: from gonzo.wolfenet.com (orin@gonzo.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.2]) by wolfenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09595 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:22:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Orin Eman Received: (from orin@localhost) by gonzo.wolfenet.com (8.8.3/8.7) id UAA10765 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805080322.UAA10765@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Subject: Re: map sensor replacement-2 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 20:22:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <355265A5.85922F7C@mwt.net> from "Steven Gorkowski" at May 7, 98 08:53:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If you search the archives, you'll find posts about putting cans or whatever between the sensor and the manifold to smooth out the 'vacuum signal'. A few feet ain't no big deal. I'd be more concerned about the vacuum hose getting squished en route. Now as to putting the brain in the trunk, that doesn't make much sense to me. Makes all the wiring really long and more susceptable to noise. > The F3 box has a 6 foot vacuum line from the box to intake . They just > cal.out the error in the tables . Under the dash may be better or if the > unit is very big, mount the map sensor under the dash and feed the > voltage back to the cpu. Your way will work also. Have fun . > > >.........(the brain goes in the trunk and there is a vacuum hose from > > > > > it ALL the way to the engine compartment!)......... > > > > > > there must be some loss with a hose this lenght ?? > > i would prefer a intake mounted sensor with a wire the lenght of the > > car > > !! > > > > > > Alain From diy_efi-owner Thu May 7 23:32:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23201 for diy_efi-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:32:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23195 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:32:10 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (bert-47.brokersys.com [209.113.62.239]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA25149 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 22:34:27 -0500 Message-ID: <35527858.62FFA3C4@brokersys.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 22:13:28 -0500 From: Walter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: map sensor replacement-2 References: <35523A65.BF8A5E9F@brokersys.com> <35526A02.52D8@huron.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Clare Snyder wrote: > > Walter wrote: > > > > Thanks for all you replies. > > The sensor has to be mounted on a circuit board and uses 5v > > power. It goes in a fuel injection brain from a Jaguar XJS ( > > the brain goes in the trunk and there is a vacuum hose from > > it ALL the way to the engine compartment!). > > I would prefer not to have to go to the junk yard every time > > I need one. I did search the 'net' but I don't think I did > > it thoroughly enough.Will try again later. I did find an > > intersesting site: > > > > http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Div/apd/english/products/engine.html#04 > > > > The Motorola part sound promising. > > > > Walter > I have an idea. > Remove the MAP from the circuit board, get rid of the LLOONNGG vacuum > hose, and run a 3 conductor cord to the engine compartment. Drill the > intake manifold to take one of the GM on-manifold map sensors, and you > are off to the races - with a part that is as easy to get at as it is to > get. I wish I had a Jag to do that on. I just repair the ECU's the rich folks send me. Walt From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 00:16:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA24038 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:16:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA24033 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:16:34 -0400 Received: from JCsDOOR@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8VJKa02437 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:15:46 -0400 (EDT) From: JCs DOOR Message-ID: <5bc7d5ba.355286f3@aol.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:15:46 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 40 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu hi gar Checked out books today. Di came out on 89 9000's.IT had a seperate ecu that just took care of timing.I have a bin or two for thies ecu,from days past when saab would let us play some,.So it has been around a least 10 years. jim crance From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 00:25:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA24219 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:25:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA24215 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:24:58 -0400 From: goflo@pacbell.net Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-206-170-117-166.sndg02.pacbell.net [206.170.117.166]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id VAA29095 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 21:26:27 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-PBXG (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench References: <35523A65.BF8A5E9F@brokersys.com> <35525C72.8A48F3F5@mwt.net> <362a70b9.268813125@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Garfield, Motorola pressure sensor part # is MPXL5010 0-1.45 psi range (approx 41 in.H2O). Output span is 4.5 V temp compensated on-chip. Used this part to build a data logger for a SuperFlow 600. The -dp version of the part reads the test manometer - Output to LTC1286 12-bit A/D, interrogated by an old hand-held 8-bitter (TI74) which logged the data for later upload to PC. The thing is fast enough to see the pressure transients in the flow bench so I've employed active and/or software filters between the device and the A/D, depending on what I'm doing. Seems to work. Keep threatening to close the loop with servos on the pressure valves! Motorola's got a Sensor data book with all the variations and some good app stuff. Hope this is useful. Jack From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 00:39:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA24411 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:39:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA24407 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:39:16 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-61.brokersys.com [209.113.60.62]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27130 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:41:25 -0500 Message-ID: <3552880C.18A778FE@brokersys.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 23:20:28 -0500 From: Walter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: map sensor replacement-2 References: <199805080322.UAA10765@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Orin Eman wrote: > > If you search the archives, you'll find posts about putting cans or whatever > between the sensor and the manifold to smooth out the 'vacuum signal'. > A few feet ain't no big deal. I'd be more concerned about the vacuum > hose getting squished en route. > > Now as to putting the brain in the trunk, that doesn't make much sense > to me. Makes all the wiring really long and more susceptable to > noise. > > > The F3 box has a 6 foot vacuum line from the box to intake . They just > > cal.out the error in the tables . Under the dash may be better or if the > > unit is very big, mount the map sensor under the dash and feed the > > voltage back to the cpu. Your way will work also. Have fun . > > > > >.........(the brain goes in the trunk and there is a vacuum hose from > > > > > > > it ALL the way to the engine compartment!)......... > > > > > > > > > there must be some loss with a hose this lenght ?? > > > i would prefer a intake mounted sensor with a wire the lenght of the > > > car > > > Alain I have seen a modification made inside the ECU that adds a voltage (proportional to rate of change of throttle position) to the output of the map sensor. This noticeably improved the partial throttle response (0-30mph) of the car. However I'm not sure if this was because of a delay involved for the vaccuum pressures to get back as far as the trunk, or just a poor fuel map in the eprom. Walter From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 01:07:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA24815 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 01:07:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lnagate.foxboro.com.au (lnagate.foxboro.com.au [202.12.113.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA24810 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 01:07:34 -0400 Received: (qmail 16018 invoked from network); 8 May 1998 01:06:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO foxboro.com.au) (202.12.112.10) by gatekeeper.foxboro.com.au with SMTP; 8 May 1998 01:06:30 -0000 Received: from wayneb-nt (fwserver [202.12.112.56]) by foxboro.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA10398 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:06:29 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980508110641.00a76c60@qtc-mail> X-Sender: wayneb@qtc-mail X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:06:41 +1000 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Wayne Blair Subject: Holdens a little info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu A little info about some engines used in Holdens: V8 used in production CHEV: 307 327 350 Aussie V8's (have always been faster and stronger than chevs and fords of same design and capacity - production volume has been only impediment to aftermarket and further development. [Repco Brabham was a 5L GP engine was an offshoot of the Aussie v8 - maybe?]. That should but the possum in the kitchen ;^) ) 253 small bore 308 308 4 inch bore 304 destroked to 4999cc under 5L for racing homolagation and complete head redesign to make use of EFI The baby 55 57 chev looking cars used 6cyl from GM Canada Grey motors/Side plates, used siamesesd intake port. (Like old blue flames chevs ? ) 132 ci 138 ci Also a lot of Red, Blue, Black aussie 6's like baby 292(?) inline (red ?) Chev 6's 138, (toranas only) 149,179 161,186, 173,202 a nissan 3L also (some one else will know more) V6 Buicks (some one else will know which and what) Hey Justin - wanna add any info so the overseas guys get the full picture on downunder GMs? wayne From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 02:53:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA25873 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 02:53:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA25869 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 02:53:52 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA22899 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:53:51 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 23:54:38 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35579f36.6277828@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <35523A65.BF8A5E9F@brokersys.com> <35525C72.8A48F3F5@mwt.net> <362a70b9.268813125@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id CAA25870 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Thu, 07 May 1998 21:26:27 -0700, goflo@pacbell.net wrote: >Motorola pressure sensor part # is MPXL5010 0-1.45 psi range (approx >41 in.H2O). Output span is 4.5 V temp compensated on-chip. Oh pennies from heaven; thanks, Jack (and Steve for the spark)! I looked on the Moto selector guide for low pressure sensors, but somehow (fractional wits again, alas) I missed this lil beauty. I guess one can't have everythang; I was hoping for somethin within +-1%FS accuracy, but in a flow bench, I guess what's really important is REPEATABILITY, so you can just be sure you are measuring air flow AT the same diff. pressure drop; so yeah, this gizmo should do very nicely. My next quest has to be for a calibrated MAF sensor for the flow bench that will go from 0-600cfm (OK I'll settle for 300cfm if I HAVE to), with 1%FS accuracy. Then move over SuperFlow. Hee hee. I've got my blower motor controller all figured out AND tested (lobbing it up and down in my hand as we speak; it's amazingly simple), so I can put a PC in the loop to read the deltaP and control the blowers, and then use a stepper motor to open the valve gradually, whilst controlling the blower to keep the deltaP within range, and then measure the air flow with the MAF sensor. That way, once I set the thang up, I just push a button and listen to them blowers go to town, as the controller steps through the valve lift range, increment by increment. I know, I know, I'm daft as a loon maybe, but ya gotta dream, dontcha? I want a flow bench that is nuthin but a controlled air flow and diff. pressure apparatus, and the entire rest of the smarts is in the PC, so it runs through the measurement, computes/corrects flows, and plots the results of my latest plaster model grind, whilst I kick back and have a coffee. Hee. Hey, anybody up for a DIY FlowBench? If the calibrated MAF sensor could be found to meet the specs I've mentioned, I'm SURE it could be done. The major expense are the multiple blower motors, but everybody just about uses all the same ones, and they're about $100 per 100cfm from the Grainger catalog, as far as I can fathom. Forget the calibrated orifices, the manual switching of them, and them huge manometers, and especially the slant tube variety, along with the manual blower controls, etc. etc. Let's take a giant leap into the present, and let our sensors, instruments, and PC control the loop. Washing clothes musta been a ROYAL tedious pain, just like flow bench runs, before the washing machine came along. What we need is a simple, straightforward, present-day-technology flow bench that's computer controlled and electronically instrumented. Them old-style flow benches do Orville and Wilbur proud, no doubt, but they're way too big, way too tedious to use, and, last but not least WAY TO EXPENSIVE!! There's already a commercial offering like this, available from: http://www.quadsci.com but it's either 200cfm box for ~$2K, or a 600cfm box for $4K+. Argh. Too low a volume, too high a markup, making it a rich man's sport. Crumbs. Time to zap it with some DIY-rays. >Keep threatening to close the loop with servos on the pressure valves! Hey don't get mad, get even. How bout closing the loop by controlling the blower motors electronically from the PC. That way you don't have to mess with them valves, which are just an "orifice" way of controlling flow, IF the blowers are assumed to be running at a fixed speed. BUT, just about all the blower motors all them FlowBench guys use now are AC/DC motors that can be easily thyristor controlled, without overheating. Thas a better way than choking the poor things! A PC with a parallel port, and the world of blower motors is at your command. Like I said, I got the PC-controlled Thyristor motor controller stuff already worked out (I been plotting about this one for a while, but I've lacked the "critical mass of fractional wits summation", to pull off the sensor side of thangs). If any of yous guys can find a MAF sensor that's available CALIBRATED, and within +-1%FS accuracy over say 300cfm (it takes a WHOLE lotta blowers to do 600cfm @ 25" H2O, so I figure a 300cfm flowbench is gonna be fine for most people, bout $600 worth of blowers), I can supply the rest of the circuitry. Write the interface in Java or your favorite GUI environs, and POOF, instant automagic flow bench. I've even got the motor controller stuff for the stepper necessary to turn the lead screw (you know the valve opening from the # of steps commanded, and the lead screw pitch) that opens the valve (assuming you're running flows on a cylinder head). Hook the data logging into Excel, and presto, instant plots! OK, I'll go and take my medication now, but just think about it, will ya? Life is short and uncertain; we gotta think hard about getting to the dessert FIRST. Gar From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 03:36:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA26120 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 03:36:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA26114 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 03:36:11 -0400 Received: from mail-gw5.pacbell.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id DAA10389; Fri, 8 May 1998 03:36:11 -0400 Received: from default (ppp-207-214-189-37.anhm01.pacbell.net [207.214.189.37]) by mail-gw5.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id AAA11853; Fri, 8 May 1998 00:36:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Duane Reed" To: , , "Michael T. David" , "Toyota-Mods Mailing List" , "BRETT D DULL" , "EMCNUT" , "Homebrew Automotive" Subject: drag race corolla update caution long Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:32:09 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd7a53$693076e0$25bdd6cf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu hi all, well today was a very productive day toward completion of this project (read charge it). even better the owner of the speed shop I work for (part time) said he would have a poster made of my corolla and hang it in the shop if it breaks into the 9's (he can't even spell Toyota) 1) ordered currie foraged axles for my shortened rearend (ford 9 inch 37in flange to flange) 2) a set of cheap foraged connecting rods made for chevy small block (had to buy eight so I have 2 extra) 3) ordered 32 pound hour injectors 4) received the strange 31 spline spool 5) a week ago received two grand national e-proms (thanks Mike I still owe you a case of brew) 6) back half welded into car (hope its straight?) 7) cleaned a lot 8) tack welded my thru the floor subframe connectors 9) installed buick century engine harness 10) start a list of parts for repair vw(valves), buick(engine electronics), ford(rear end and injectors), Nissan(turbo charger), chevy(con rods), Honda(cooling fans) and some parts are still Toyota I think? next week or so I should be busy assembling the rear end and bolting it into the car to get it rolling to the chassis shop for a roll cage (more money, thank you plastic). mean while my cylinder heads are being butchered and polished still? problem areas that I need help with still 1) throttle position sensor ? how can I tell (what test can I perform) if its compatible with the buck computer Toyota is a 4 connector type and does not look like I can modify the buick piece and it goes the other way?(using the Toyota throttle body its bigger) 2) cam position? still don't know where/how the sensor gets its trigger from. is there a spinning magnet (Frederic did you take those pictures?) 3) ecu power? does it run off 12v,ideas on when it shoud power up, how should I regulated, does it need to be and fuse size any input accepted Duane Reed From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 04:11:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA26471 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 04:11:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA26467 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 04:11:26 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD7A60.D1227F70@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:08:08 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Whattza Holden?. Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:08:07 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 13 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This posting reminds me, I have no idea about 'metric' power measurements, is there an quick equation that converts bhp to kw that someone can furnish me with? > >little p&p was good for around 250kw and the other is the monster off >the group-A it is a twin t-bodie setup with a huge plemin chamber with >stright runners that if you shine a light down the runner you can see >the valve and up the top end are some s/steel trumpets which with little >mods can be made adjustable........these little babys are good for 400kw >now that is 500hp+ std t-bodies are 1000cfm and they ran bosch green >injectors with a delco p4 808 ecm :-) From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 05:48:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA27596 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 05:48:31 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA27592 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 05:48:26 -0400 Received: from main (alaint@ppp147.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.147]) by mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA04888; Fri, 8 May 1998 05:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 05:44:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Alain Toussaint X-Sender: alaint@main To: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com cc: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench In-Reply-To: <35579f36.6277828@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Hey don't get mad, get even. How bout closing the loop by controlling > the blower motors electronically from the PC. That way you don't have to > mess with them valves, which are just an "orifice" way of controlling > flow, IF the blowers are assumed to be running at a fixed speed. BUT, > just about all the blower motors all them FlowBench guys use now are > AC/DC motors that can be easily thyristor controlled, without > overheating. Thas a better way than choking the poor things! A PC with a > parallel port, and the world of blower motors is at your command. i think a word must be said about efficiency of the fan used there,i remember that such a thraid was did around january (or december) about mass airflow that degenerated into a DIY flow bench,there where comment about the fan being efficient at one RPM but not all,i think you should look at that,i'll download the archive of these 2 month to do some revision once i put some order in the 150 MB of stuff i have in my home directory. Alain From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 06:19:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA27803 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 06:19:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA27794 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 06:19:03 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Fri, 08 May 98 20:20:46 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7ABE.97F78D40@PJARAMAZ >; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:19:24 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7ABE.97F78D40@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Holdens a little info Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 20:19:22 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD7ABE.98085620" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7ABE.98085620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Guys, Just being picky :-) ---------- From: Wayne Blair Sent: Friday, May 08, 1998 11:06 AM To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Holdens a little info A little info about some engines used in Holdens: V8 used in production CHEV: 307 327 350 Aussie V8's (have always been faster and stronger than chevs and fords of same = design The 308 was more powerful than the 307, but the 307 was never the = perfomance engine. The chev was once the darling of the hot up set over = the early 308s. Now with heaps of development the 308 is a very good = alternative. and capacity - production volume has been only impediment to aftermarket and further development. [Repco Brabham was a 5L GP engine was an = offshoot of the Aussie v8 - maybe?]. That should but the possum in the kitchen = ;^) ) 253 small bore 308=09 308 4 inch bore 304 destroked to 4999cc under 5L for racing homolagation and complete = head redesign to make use of EFI The destroke happened in about 1985 but still made use of the Q-Jet carb = and the B (For Brock) head castings for the perfomance models. VL v8 = which was the last carbed job made 127kW on unleaded.=20 The baby 55 57 chev looking cars used 6cyl from GM Canada Grey motors/Side plates, used siamesesd intake port. (Like old blue = flames chevs ? ) 132 ci 138 ci Yep, we got the grey. Classic motor for its time Also a lot of Red, Blue, Black aussie 6's like baby=20 292(?) inline (red ?) Chev 6's 138, (toranas only) 149,179 161,186, 173,202 Oh yeah, saw an ancient C60 chev truck and the motor looked like a = stretched 292 in almost evry detail even down to dizzy pos and = sideplates. a nissan 3L also (some one else will know more) RB30 also in turbo variant -150kW, mid 15 1.4s, low 7s to 100kmh. V6=20 Buicks (some one else will know which and what) Early RWD 3800 in the VN-VR, ecotec or the latest revision for the VS = onwards Hey Justin - wanna add any info so the overseas guys get the full = picture on downunder GMs? Ive got a tone of info. Just digging it up is the prob :-( wayne Peter ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7ABE.98085620 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhgKAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA GgAAAFJFOiBIb2xkZW5zIGEgbGl0dGxlIGluZm8AuQgBBYADAA4AAADOBwUACAAUABMAFgAFACQB ASCAAwAOAAAAzgcFAAgAEwADAAwABQAJAQEJgAEAIQAAAEM0Qjg1MTY1QTJFNkQxMTFCRUJCMDA0 MDA1NUYyQTZGACUHAQOQBgD4CAAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAA AwA2AAAAAABAADkA4GwDxWp6vQEeAHAAAQAAABoAAABSRTogSG9sZGVucyBhIGxpdHRsZSBpbmZv AAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb16asTyZVG4xeaiEdG+uwBABV8qbwAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAA AAAeAB8MAQAAABkAAABwamFyYW1hekBpbmdlbmljby5jb20uYXUAAAAAAwAGELBl/dgDAAcQQAYA AB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhJR1VZUyxKVVNUQkVJTkdQSUNLWTotKS0tLS0tLS0tLS1GUk9NOldBWU5F QkxBSVJTRU5UOkZSSURBWSxNQVkwOCwxOTk4MTE6MDZBTVRPOkRJWUVGSUBFU0xFTkdPSElPLVMA AAAAAgEJEAEAAABkBwAAYAcAAKsNAABMWkZ10SSzTf8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArA c2V07jIGAAbDAoMyA8YHEwKDujMTDX0KgAjPCdk7Ff94MjU1AoAKgQ2xC2Bu8GcxMDMUIAsKEvIM AQJjAEAgSGkgR3UYeXMsCoUKhUp1cwkFQGJlC4BnIHBpgGNreSA6LSkbbEEK9GxpMTgwAtFp8C0x NDQN8AzQH2MLWWwxNgqgA2B0BZAFQC1fIYcKhyA7DDAhBkYDYToHIo4hBgyCIFdheW7oZSBCC2Fy Ii8jPQZgTwIwJG8leyQgaWQmUCwjBdAmUCAwOCtwMTmEOTgsADE6MDYTcGZNJv8jPVRvKT8le2RI aXlfDcBpQAeQbAIuCfBnLm9oaW+aLRxgYSEwMZBkdSzvcSgOdWJqIUEvDyV7SGcG8A2wBjFhIB7A AkBsnyaAC4ACEB2PHpMzNiAHdxQiDAEhBkE3qjeABuB1/QVAcwNwJoAxoQuAB5EcUNcJgDgRNwY6 G2xWLEA9di8hATKgIVAyAG4KhUNIREVWNTAzMDdBYDLtQZE1CnYKhUEcUACQJoCpP1AncwqFKBHA diaAPQdAdyZQBCAckAnwIGbuYRxgBJA3gG49oBxgA2A7GQBFgXQRwAOgEbBldp83cUXBAhALIAQg b2Y8kO5hPMENsACQZ0CWGW8adf1ItVRG4EFhLEBEoAQgBGCTFgAc4G93BJBmdQMg10aDRoBLMjcr cGI8cU0Ff0uDJnBEUEZiTAFMUQNyY/081i5LA0bSS4MCIE+xTQK9K0ByHsAcwUfRTQJoISC9PWBw PJASAEfATrZlUdHrHTBLUXNQQE5MMEuAN8D2aFKgU/BwR7MNsERQFZD+cAeAAjBM9SxABAA3gU6x uR0wZ28EcERxRXFuMlB6aURQLjhvOX86jEWyY+9VYADQN8AdMC0/+VdQBvD+dTzBEcBE1QIgVCEH cE8wPzDgVkQ8IQGABJAAwHJr/xIASLVHMwhwTQEFwFXZUECwW1JlcAWgJpByAaBNEcBtS4M3kDVM GwBQ7zzlYyReQQ3Qc1KwISBItbtSRUMFdixAXJAAwHkckPw/XVBCMlA8kFKwTIA9oL9NlkwgBBBd kD2yTQJrN8DDRtEDoDteKSAddkkvb0o8Wa9avxgwMzyQAMBsfwMgBuBL8UtRJfNqdUtSNP84ERGw b4NwZ3EQSFFGAWAQiz2gX2E0LCA5Y2M9YO9FwEWBY5FHcSBiwFxAHMH3UrAEYAtgZ1hhXTFbwwNw 7wtQEgBSkVPwZGp1FgFIYx9fUgDAYBA9YkfCRUZJ32p/a49K1nJ2XcFwTzAmcOc9ozxELBA4NU2D HGADEB8DIADADbB4Rk0CUS1Ku1MxXAByJiBFsk0CQkQQ9kYFsWKwbx0QakB2klvxv33RGQAEIHRC Tv0EYmxUgfZWY6BmoXcx8HFRS5JNAs8LYBxhf5I9kWpvJiB+M/IxQcBrV1Ehc6E38H5BvmRQQGxv bX8hFUqpYgGg/x0wGEBjgEGQUKMVkHLAHLLjf5E9VTZjeQMgA1IbAK5NQQAAcHawYXj1RxYAzx0w BGBfYBHgL1MrMEwBfwtgITAbQD1kAJBIERHwcz89ogGQeCFMIAAgUEAoTP5peCE3IRyACkFFMAtg B4HbePVG1D9qV3j1MUGwRsC+aZSnLECVV3lvenxZYmBfK3BMQFehTbQJwXlQQEP/hREAkHOQjuN0 MzfAhLEHcfeHn4ivibxBg5A8IYvBU0H7R+BiUGQrcCagClCfsgDQ7GsgN4BDFDZDkDeheCGDitOW RTI5Mig/akB3C4BR8SaAKBYBk/BqQEPvULKhEZV4K3AojwGN0VESB1QgHXYfYDksMTc5yZSmNjGm gDg2G1amkHQzLAHQMpZPl1+owk/1VSB5U/BoK3BIAAfgA5H3T5EIkFZhQ5ygUJRGAEBA/6Bwf+aa hIvSPZGhUzeQRfHfEgBG0T2gomF8o2wEYBxhf0bwV4ENsAGQAxFOoQOgZOdMMHezMOB6eh0waMFF pP+PYY+kWL+cPzp9N4EDAAQQ3QORM2OgB0CewSg8owIgzzzRg5BkQX3ya25UwUvS52pvqZ+541JC QXC3hGky/whwBuBXUArABzBWYR9QQgA7hpArcG0rMCwAfXAxLu40j/EVkAfgN4SxPCAZIPm+AG1o s7a0r7W/PuYsoPm5xUJ1HQEEILfvuPaENL9FsoQwMlC5v7rPxuNFVAM4UldEQWAe8WkmVk74LVZS K3AFkSExR8CCRHePswVAFgB2BABdIoImVn8F8AIgRKBHkcA/wU+JvEjfjrEcQj3BXJBEoG5YUDeA +mRX4W5ekTwCnsFNAlNi+xHwS6FnGyFXoFMxTQJMcf8DIBzxvPFxtl0xsbJztI2Q3HM/xs/H39cy SURRmSL/N5BfYCZxR9E4IlBAHEMw4P5nPREc0DfAUuJXEU7zA2D7JiAdUCjN/88PibzXBUSh/yZw Ms0aNYmt3X8aFh3s199cIFB2USbmFSEA56ADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMCAptiBger0BQAAI MCAptiBger0BHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAADX/ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7ABE.98085620-- From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 08:05:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA28715 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:05:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA28710 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:05:14 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA27327 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 05:05:14 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 05:06:02 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <355ef501.28240281@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id IAA28711 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 8 May 1998 05:44:46 -0400 (EDT), Alain Toussaint wrote: >> BUT, >> just about all the blower motors all them FlowBench guys use now are >> AC/DC motors that can be easily thyristor controlled > >i think a word must be said about efficiency of the fan used there But, but , but it's already being done. This is how all the Quadrant Scientific flow benches work, already. Since you are controlling the motors in closed-loop, with diff. pressure drop across the DUT as your set point, as long as the blower motors don't LARGELY go to pot, you don't really care if the efficiency isn't completely constant over the range you're varying the rpm. The other thing to observe is that these blower-motors aren't like single stage rotary or squirrel-cage fans; they're actually more like lil 2-stage turbines inside. Maybe it's like EGOR and ION, they may seem like hard problems if we were approaching them for the first time, and starting from first principles, but an existence proof is worth a ton of speculation, and once there's proof that it's been done, and that cheaply and practically, then we can dispense with worrying about the "order" of certain effects and issues, and just go DO IT. Thas eXactly why I mentioned the Quadrant Sci stuff. Not tryna say that the issue of blower efficiency isn't REAL, just that given commercial implementations built around varying the blowers under thyristor control, it just can't be a show-stopper. Unless them guys use a special sauce the recipe for which is currently a trade secret, ala Kernel Sanders. [BTW, I don't ever recall hearing of anyone successfully reverse-engineering his chicken, have you? Now THERE'S an example of an effective and well kept trade secret. Whew! Humbling, idn't it?; to think that what stuff we're doing here is easier than tryna duplicate someone's cooking yer fond of. Heh]. Garfield (confirmed birdatarian; if you know the Kernel's recipe', lemme know! I gotta great zuccini-bread recipe' I'll trade ya. B) From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 08:56:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29305 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:56:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from cbgw2.lucent.com (cbgw2.lucent.com [207.24.196.52]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29301 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:56:35 -0400 Received: from hfcnfs.hobl.lucent.com by cbig2.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id IAA06416; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:56:27 -0400 Received: from lucent.com by hfcnfs.hobl.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.3.1 sol2) id IAA26139; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:56:21 -0400 Message-ID: <3552BA70.1C6BF722@lucent.com> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 08:55:28 +0000 From: Angel Gomez X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: map sensor replacement-2 References: <35523A65.BF8A5E9F@brokersys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Walter, What you want is a SendSym (sp) pressure transducer which is a PC mountable solid state pressure transducer. It costs considerably more than $15 (about $85 I think). Angel Walter wrote: > > Thanks for all you replies. > The sensor has to be mounted on a circuit board and uses 5v > power. It goes in a fuel injection brain from a Jaguar XJS ( > the brain goes in the trunk and there is a vacuum hose from > it ALL the way to the engine compartment!). > I would prefer not to have to go to the junk yard every time > I need one. I did search the 'net' but I don't think I did > it thoroughly enough.Will try again later. I did find an > intersesting site: > > http://www.hitachi.co.jp/Div/apd/english/products/engine.html#04 > > The Motorola part sound promising. > > Walter From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 09:43:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA29952 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:43:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29948 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:43:55 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yXnUV-0001ZRC; Fri, 8 May 98 09:47 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:47:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: from "Robert Humphris" at May 8, 98 09:08:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > This posting reminds me, I have no idea about 'metric' power > measurements, is there an quick equation that converts bhp to kw that > someone can furnish me with? divide by .745 Clive > > > > >little p&p was good for around 250kw and the other is the monster off > >the group-A it is a twin t-bodie setup with a huge plemin chamber with > >stright runners that if you shine a light down the runner you can see > >the valve and up the top end are some s/steel trumpets which with little > >mods can be made adjustable........these little babys are good for 400kw > >now that is 500hp+ std t-bodies are 1000cfm and they ran bosch green > >injectors with a delco p4 808 ecm :-) > From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 09:58:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA30270 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:58:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mbox.ualr.edu (mbox.ualr.edu [144.167.10.38]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA30264 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:58:06 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01IWS9XVCOOG0000BN@UALR.EDU>; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:58:02 CDT Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 08:50:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Holdens a little info To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <475076.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -> Aussie V8's -> (have always been faster and stronger than chevs and fords of same -> design and capacity - production volume has been only impediment to -> aftermarket and further development. Um. With those tiny valves and tiny ports? The Holden motor was designed for reliablity, smooth operation and low-end torque; it clearly was not aimed at the performance market. -> [Repco Brabham was a 5L GP -> engine was an offshoot of the Aussie v8 - maybe?]. That should but -> the possum in the kitchen ;^) ) The Repco motor was a variant of the American Buick 215 V8, before Leyland bought it. From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 10:38:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA30849 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:38:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from newmail.virgin.net (newmail.virgin.net [194.168.54.44]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA30844 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:38:35 -0400 Received: from virgin.net ([194.168.70.136]) by newmail.virgin.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 1-55555U125000L125000S0) with ESMTP id AAA6782 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:38:30 +0000 Message-ID: <355319C0.17E769AC@virgin.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:42:09 +0100 From: Tony Cooper X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: ION Current measurement - was "And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic?" References: <1317686495-34230248@uia.net> <35c996b4.147464437@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > On Wed, 6 May 1998 06:26:00 -0700, "Robert Harris" > wrote: > > > > >Sorry Mr. Cooper, if our silly ass understanding and plebeian purpose does > >not allow us to truly dissect the entrails that your more obvious > >sophistication and expectations does. > > Hey, lemme get real serious for a moment and suggest you two knock this > off pronto. I dunno what personal things are detonating between the two > of you, and it isn't my business, and you're entitled to not care for > > Gar STOP.... Ok, before we get into a REAL slagging match, please try to understand the following. I do NOT have any personal greivance/lovehate relationship with Bob. As a member of this list I enjoy the different ideas that come and go as discussions. I am quite happy to contribute my 2P's worth to all/any idea's. If a member of the list asks a question, and I can help with an answer, I am more than willing to assist. If an expert member of the list gives advice, I am more than willing to listen and learn. However, when a member of the list arrives on a thread and starts authoritivly spouting supposed facts - especially facts that are blatantly incorrect, I am sorry but I have to chirp up and put my 2p's worth in. Now this doesn't happen much - in fact the only time I can really help the list is when it touches on a subject that is really close to my heart. Now - shall we put this bickering to bed and get on with the job in hand. Here are my thoughts on ION Current measurement. As far as I understand the SAAB system it works like this. After the IONisation event has been started (An IONisation event being setting fire to the mixture) the SAAB system floats a DC voltage across the plug gap. There will be current flow which is directly proportional to the burn rate of the mixture. A graph of current flow can be seen at this address :- http://www.vehicular.isy.liu.se/Research/activity96/node5.html (Gra Using a high pass filter - (which has been tuned to the SAAB engine in question) it filters out any high frequency noise in the Flame Front and Post flame parts of the graph. If there is noise of a particular frequency present, then a detonation event has occured. This is fed back to the ignition system, and the ignition timing will be changed according to the algorithm used. Now, for a particular engine the detonation frequency can be found easily (Just make your engine detonate!!!) so the correct values for the filter can be calculated - However, it gets somewhat tricky to build a system that will bolt on to any engine and work because no 2 engines (different models that is) are the same. The best way to get around this problem is to use some sort of intelligence to move the filter frequency around, and also calibrate itself to the magnitude that is allowable knock - (Bearing in mind that an engine runs best when it is only just detonating). And guess what a DSP is built for doing this. The cost of such a system should be around the 20 UK Pound mark. Just to whet your appitite more - hows about this lot of goodies available. Measurement of torque for each cylinder as the engine is running. Measurement of mixture. Ability to inform you on the state of your valves/rings/plugs etc etc In can go on....... Tony -- Sent By Tony Cooper. email: tony.cooper@virgin.net Allow at least 10 working minutes for reply. ;) From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 10:48:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA30973 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:48:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA30969 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:48:10 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-7.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.76]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id KAA09412 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:47:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: drag race corolla update caution long Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:48:43 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7a90$65c795a0$4c198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Duane Reed +ADw-duanered+AEA-pacbell.net+AD4- Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 4:30 AM Subject: drag race corolla update caution long problem areas that I need help with still +AD4- 1) throttle position sensor ? how can I tell (what test can I perform) +AD4-if its compatible with the buck computer Toyota is a 4 connector type and does not look like I can modify the buick piece and it goes the other way?(using the Toyota throttle body its bigger) Hook up an ohmmeter to find out if it is resistance, and then two should be a fixed value, and one sweep between them. The resistance of a stock gm is 6K outside to outside, and the wiper varies across that. I'd wire the ecm to it and see if ya can get a sweep of less than .5 v at idle, to at least 4.8v but not over 4.9 at WOT. I'd bet there is both a clockwise, and C-clockwise GM TPS. +AD4- 2) cam position? still don't know where/how the sensor gets its trigger +AD4-from. is there a spinning magnet (Frederic did you take those pictures?) It's a hall effect so it needs to see a steel shutter. If the toyo was a coil within the distributor trigger, with about 1K ohms resistance might think about the Syclone 749 ecm, no crank or cam with that one, just dizzy.. +AD4- 3) ecu power? does it run off 12v,ideas on when it shoud power up, how should I regulated, does it need to be and fuse size Two power connections, one to key, one always on for memory. 10A I beleive on key, for race car I'd use one for memory (ie 3). +AD4- +AD4-any input accepted +AD4-Duane Reed +AD4- Bruce From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 10:53:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA31068 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:53:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA31063 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:53:23 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-7.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.76]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id KAA11150 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:52:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:53:56 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7a91$20423b60$4c198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 10:39 AM Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. >> >> >the group-A it is a twin t-bodie setup with a huge plemin chamber with >> >stright runners that if you shine a light down the runner you can see >> >the valve and up the top end are some s/steel trumpets which with little >> >mods can be made adjustable........these little babys are good for 400kw >> >now that is 500hp+ std t-bodies are 1000cfm and they ran bosch green >> >injectors with a delco p4 808 ecm :-) >> > Anybody have a bin off of something like that??. Yep curious Cone Shaped Hat Wearers gotta ask to see em.. Cheers Bruce e-mail response to nacelp@bright.net Subject classified response to CSH World HQ.. Hey it's Friday. From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 11:07:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA31374 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:07:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from horizon.hit.net (rah@horizon.hit.net [206.252.160.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA31370 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:07:08 -0400 Received: (from rah@localhost) by horizon.hit.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28624 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:04:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin Message-Id: <199805081604.LAA28624@horizon.hit.net> Subject: Calculating Fuel Econ. from pulse times and mph To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:04:42 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hello, I have been trying to calculate fuel econ. from injector pulse times. I have a batch fire vehicle, I believe I know what the number of times per rpm that the injectors fire. I think the injecotrs fire once per rpm (is this right). I know the injector rating (lb/hr), there ford svo injectors which I believe means they are rated at 39 psi, my car is running at 45 psi, so the injectors are doing 45/39 * 30 lb /hr. Also the computer says the injecotr is on x.x ms. I am assuming that is what the computer it telling the injectors to do. Are the ramp up and ramp down times similar enough that you can assume that that time is close enough, or are there some transient things that cause the actual open time to be less than or greater than that number? What I am really tring to do is figure out what the absolute best gas mileage my car could get, if it was only crusing, with no braking or acceleration, and also determine how badly different things affect the gas mileage. Roger Heflin From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 11:07:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA31384 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:07:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA31380 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:07:22 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-7.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.76]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id LAA15943 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:06:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: O2 sensor duplicator Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:07:55 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7a93$145d9360$4c198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Some one (and I lost my note, so sorry list), was working on a 3 op-amp signal generator for the O2 input for benching running ecms. Please contact me!. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 12:46:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00512 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 12:46:30 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00507 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 12:46:26 -0400 Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA10887; Fri, 8 May 1998 12:46:26 -0400 Received: from GSMnow@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id WOJWa02432; Fri, 8 May 1998 12:45:36 -0400 (EDT) From: GSMnow Message-ID: <18e6c310.355336b2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:45:36 EDT To: duanered@pacbell.net, diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu, tech@turbomagazine.com, mdavid@sprintmail.com, toyota-mods@cyberauto.com, DULLCLAN@prodigy.net, ECMnut@aol.com, homebrew-autos@xephic.dynip.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: drag race corolla update caution long Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 98-05-08 03:52:20 EDT, duanered@pacbell.net writes: << 1) throttle position sensor ? how can I tell (what test can I perform) if its compatible with the buck computer Toyota is a 4 connector type and does not look like I can modify the buick piece and it goes the other way?(using the Toyota throttle body its bigger) >> This should be easy. the GM computer just needs a smooth 0 to 5 volt signal as the throttle opens. The later Toyotas had this and an idle switch, that is the extra pin. With an ohm meter, you should be able to find the switch pin, don't use it, then find the pair with the least resistance at idle, one of these and the last pin should be the least resistance at wide open throttle. The GM ECU will have a ground and 5 volt output to feed the sensors. The 5 volts and ground go across the leads that stay at a constant resistance (should be about 5,000 ohms) and the signal is the wiper. If the voltage is high and comes down as you open the throttle, the reverse the 5 vplt and ground leads. At idle you need to have about .6 volts. A GM service manual will have the exact spec. At full throttle, it should not exceed about 4.5 volts or the ECU may think the ground wire went open and set an error code. << 2) cam position? still don't know where/how the sensor gets its trigger from. is there a spinning magnet (Frederic did you take those pictures?) >> What year and engine is the ECU from?? What Harness are you using?? The 86 87 Buick Grand National used a Short stub in place of the distributor that had the cam position sensor in it. I think it also supplied the crank signal. The 3800 motor cars use just a crank sensor, but it is a dual ring setup with a 30 pulse disk, and 3 different wicth pulses to sync the ignition. Let me know the computer you are using and I can get full diagrams and timing disk specs. You can make the right signals with a hall effect sensor, magnet, and a sheet steel disk. The edges of the slots must be accurate though, so you should cut it on a milling machine with a rotary table. The timing disk can be done in a hollowed out distributor so it is easy to work on and put in the motor later. This also makes fine tuning the timing easy. I run anElectromotive TEC II and I had to drill the mounting holes for the trigger disk in perfect timing. I did it on an engine stand. It was tempting to do it in a distributor setup, but the timing chain in the 22R is rather sloppy, and I wanted the beter precision on the crank. << 3) ecu power? does it run off 12v,ideas on when it shoud power up, how should I regulated, does it need to be and fuse size >> The standard GM ECU power setup has a full time power lead for the internal learn and error code memory, this comes off of the hazard light or dome light circuits and draws well under an amp. Thene there is an ignition power supply that is hot whenever the key is on. Make sure it is not interuppted when the starter is engaged. I used the old coil feed in my Celica. This will be about a 15 amp circuit for powering the injection and ignition. The fuel pump and cooling fans will be operated by relays that get their own power feeds. I think you will also need an oil pressure switch to keep the fuel pump running. Is there a big reason that you don't want to use a programmable aftermarket ECU?? I think it would save you alot of time and trouble. My friend has programmed many DFI systems for Grand Nationals, and they perform much better then the GM ECU, even with special chips in them. The GN air flow meter has poor reliability and a bit of restriction that you can eliminate. Being able to tweak the tunig at will has to be a big plus with your motor setup as well. If you must use a GM ecu, try to get one from a Syclone/Typhoon or Trans Am Turbo 3800. They were all speed density, but they will need to be re-mapped. Gary M. From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 13:34:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01026 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:34:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01022 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:34:16 -0400 Received: from scottmo (pdx69-i48-01.teleport.com [204.202.172.143]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18345 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <355341DA.526B@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 10:33:14 -0700 From: "Scott Mo." X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Pressure sensor stuff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I posted this to the list previously, but I'm not sure it made it through. Motorola makes some nice pressure sensors, the MPX4250AP is designed for turbo charged vehicles, 0.2-5 V output. MPX4100AP I believe is used for the Naturally Aspirated vehicles. These are priced from $15-40 Go to http://mot2.indirect.com/senseon/pressure.html for more info. HTH Scott Mo. 1989 200TQ 1988 5000TQ 1966 VW Beetle http://www.teleport.com/~scottmo -- Scott Mo. 1989 200TQ 1988 5000TQ 1966 VW Beetle http://www.teleport.com/~scottmo From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 13:38:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01115 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:38:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01111 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:38:11 -0400 Received: from scottmo (pdx69-i48-01.teleport.com [204.202.172.143]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA19386 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <355342C4.66C5@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 10:37:08 -0700 From: "Scott Mo." X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I sent this out to the list, but again, I don't think it made it through. Here are some other SAE technical Paper listings that I found doing a search for SAAB and " ionization". They may be useful for the DIY Trionic stuff. Document Number: 890044 Title: Saab direct ignition system and its cold start performance Publication Date:1989 Author(s):Jiewertz, Sten; Klemisch, Bobby; Anderland, Torsten; Gillbrand, Per S. Organization(s):Saab-Scania AB, Sweden; Saab-Scania AB, Sweden; Saab-Scania AB, Sweden; Saab-Scania AB, Sweden __________________________________________________________________ Check out this one from 1959.......Nuclear dude! 590186 Title:Engine voltage requirements using spark plugs pre-ionized with "radioactive" gold Publication Date:1959 Author(s):Gumbleton, J. J. Organization(s):Engrg. Staff, General Motors Corp. ________________________________________________________________ ionization search: Document Number:980166 Title:In-cylinder air/fuel ratio approximation using spark gap ionization sensing Publication Date: Feb 1998 Author(s):Balles, Eric N.; VanDyne, Edward A.; Wahl, Alexandre M.; Ratton, Kenneth; Lai,Ming-Chia Organization(s): Adrenaline Research, Inc.; Adrenaline Research, Inc.; Adrenaline Research, Inc.; Wayne State Univ.; Wayne State Univ. Document Number:980048 Title:Real-time analysis of particulate matter by flame ionization detection Publication Date: Feb 1998 Author(s): Kawai, Terunao,; Iuchi, Yutaka; Nakamura, Shigeo; Ishida, KozoOrganization(s): The University of Shiga Prefecture; Horiba Ltd.; Horiba Ltd.; Horiba Ltd.Meeting: SAE International Congress and Exposition Document Number:970857 Title:In-cylinder pressure measurements using the spark plug as an ionization sensor Publication Date:Feb 1997 Author(s): Saitzkoff, Andr\ae; Reinmann, Raymond; Mauss, Fabian; Glavmo, Magnus Document Number:970856 Title:Local air-fuel ratio measurements using the spark plug as an ionization sensor Publication Date: Feb 1997 Author(s):Reinmann, Raymond; Saitzkoff, Andr\ae; Mauss, Fabian; Glavmo, Magnus Document Number:970507 Title:Measurements of the effect of in-cylinder motion on flame development andcycle-to-cycle variations using an ionization probe head gasket Publication Date:Feb 1997 Author(s):Russ, Stephen; Peet, Gregory; Stockhausen, William Organization(s): Ford Motor Co.; Ford Motor Co.; Ford Motor Co. Document Number:970854 Title:Closed loop ignition control by ionization current interpretation Publication Date:Feb 1997 Author(s): Eriksson, Lars; Nielsen, Lars; Glavenius, Mikael Document Number:961201 Title:Validation tests for a fast response flame ionization detector for in-cylinder sampling near the spark plug Publication Date:May 1996 Author(s):Crawford, John G.; Wallace, James S. Organization(s):University of Toronto; University of Toronto Document Number:960329 Title:Spark ionization controller for vehicle ignition systems Publication Date: Feb 1996 Author(s):Marlow, C. Allen Organization(s):SGS-THOMSON Microelectronics Document Number: 960337 Title: An ionization equilibrium analysis of the spark plug as an ionization sensor Publication Date: Feb 1996 Author(s): Saitzkoff, Andr\ae; Reinmann, Raymond; Berglind, Thomas; Glavmo, Magnus Document Number:960045 Title: Ignition control by ionization current interpretation Publication Date:Feb 1996 Author(s): Eriksson, Lars; Nielsen, Lars; Nytomt, Jan Document Number:952458 Title:Flame propagation and laminar burning velocity measurements in a cylindrical combustion chamber using particle image Publication Date:Oct 1995 Author(s):Zhou, M.; Garner, C. P. Organization(s): Loughborough University of Technology; Loughborough University of Technology Document Number:950814 Title:Cycle-by-cycle variations in combustion and mixture concentration in the vicinity of spark plug gap Publication Date:Feb 1995 Author(s):Lee, Kyung-Hwan; Foster, David E. Organization(s): Hyundai Motor Co.; University of Wisconsin Document Number:950109 Title:A model for converting SI engine flame arrival signals into flame contours Publication Date:Feb 1995 Author(s):Hadjiconstantinou, Nicholas; Heywood, John B. Organization(s): MIT; MIT Document Number:952541 Title:Signal reconstruction applied to a fast response flame ionization detector Publication Date:Oct 1995 Author(s):Summers, T.; Collings, N. Document Number:950160 Title: Modelling the transit time of a fast response flame ionization detector during in-cylinder sampling Publication Date: Feb 1995 Author(s): Summers, Tim; Collings, Nick Document Number:950003 Title:Engine misfire detection by ionization current monitoring Publication Date: Feb 1995 Author(s):Lee, Anson; Pyko, Jan S. Organization(s):Chrysler Corp.; Chrysler Corp. Document Number:941987 Title:Flame shape determination using an optical-fiber spark plug and a head-gasket ionization probe Publication Date:Oct 1994 Author(s):Salvat, Olivier P.; Cheng, Aldebert S.; Cheng, Wai K.; Heywood, John B. Organization(s):P.S.A. Peugeot Citro\agn; Sloan Automotive Lab.; Massachusetts Institute of Technology; Sloan Automotive Lab.; Massachusetts Institute of Technology; Sloan Automotive Lab.; Massachusetts Institute of Technology Document Number:941991 Title: Combustion imaging in engine using electrical impedance measurements Publication Date: Oct 1994 Author(s):Beck, C. M.; He, R.; Waterfall, R. C.; Beck, M. S. Organization(s):Shell Research Ltd.; University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology; University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology; University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology Document Number:930464 Title:Simultaneous application of optical spark plug probe and head gasket ionization probe to a production engine Publication Date:Mar 1993 Author(s):Meyer, Roy; Kubesh, John T.; Shahed, S. M.; Davis, J. Document Number:930462 Title:Flame ion density measurement using spark plug voltage analysis Publication Date:Mar 1993 Author(s): Miyata, Shigeru; Ito, Yasuo; Shiwasaki, Yuichi Organization(s): NGK Spark Plug Co.; NGK Spark Plug Co.; Honda R&D Co., Ltd Document Number:922236 Title:Electrohydrodynamic ignition system for S.I. engines Publication Date:1992 Author(s):Hacohen, J.; Belmont, M. R.; Thurley, R. F. W.; Thomas, J. C.; Morris, E. L.; Buckingham, D. J. Organization(s):University of Exeter; University of Exeter; University of Exeter; University of Exeter; University of Exeter; University of Exeter Document Number:932645 Title:Determining the location of end-gas autoignition using ionization probes installed in the head gasket Publication Date:Oct 1993 Author(s): Witze, P. O.; Green, R. M. Document Number:930390 Title:Flame location measurements in a production engine using ionization probes embodied in a printed-circuit-board head gasket Publication Date:Mar 1993 Author(s):Nicholson, D. E.; Witze, P. O. Organization(s): General Motors Corp.; Sandia National Labs. Document Number:910719 Title: Investigation of in-cylinder fluid motion using a head gasket instrumented with ionization probes Publication Date:1991 Author(s):Witze, Peter O.; Bopp, Stefan C Document Number: 892099 Title:Cycle-resolved multipoint ionization probe measurements in a spark- ignition engine Publication Date:1989 Author(s): Witze, Peter O. Document Number:885068 Title:Closed loop control of spark-ignition engines (application to the fuel system) Publication Date: 1988 Author(s): Lefebvre, C.; Banet, G.; Ecomard, A. Meeting: 22nd FISITA Congress (1988), Dearborn, Michigan, USA Document Number: 860485 Title:In-cylinder measurement of combustion characteristics using ionization sensors Publication Date: 1986 Author(s): Anderson, Robert L. Organization(s): Ford Motor Co., Electrical and Electronics Div., Dearborn, MI Document Number:860635 Title:Knock detection by means of the spark plug Publication Date:1986 Author(s):Collings, Nick; Dinsdale, Steve; Eade, Derek Organization(s):Univ. of Cambridge, U.K.; Univ. of Cambridge, U.K.; Ford Motor Co., Basildon U.K. Document Number:750354 Title:Significance of burn types, as measured by using the spark plugs as ionization probes, with respect to the hydrocarbon emission levels in S.I. engines Publication Date:1975 Author(s):Rado, William G.; Johnson, Wayne J. Organization(s):Ford Motor Co.; Ford Motor Co. Document Number:730088 Title: Turbulent flame structure as determined by pressure development and ionization intensity Publication Date:1973 Author(s): Arrigoni, V.; Calvi, F.; Cornetti, G. M.; Pozzi, U. Organization(s): SNAM Progetti (Italy); SNAM Progetti (Italy); SNAM Progetti (Italy); SNAM Progetti (Italy) Meeting: International Automotive Engineering Congress and Exposition Document Number:730087 Title:Relationship of flame front pattern to pressure and high-speed knock on commercial engines Publication Date:1973 Author(s): Chiampo, P.; de Cristofaro, F.; Gozzelino, R. Organization(s): Fiat S.p.A.; Fiat S.p.A.; Fiat S.p.A. -- Scott Mo. 1989 Audi 200TQ 1988 Audi 5000TQ 1984 Audi 4000S 1966 VW Beetle http://www.teleport.com/~scottmo From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 14:47:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02288 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:47:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02283 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:47:22 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-27.brokersys.com [209.113.60.28]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15269 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:49:37 -0500 Message-ID: <3553537F.C87474D7@brokersys.com> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 13:48:31 -0500 From: Walter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: O2 sensor duplicator References: <01bd7a93$145d9360$4c198fd1@nacelp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Some one (and I lost my note, so sorry list), was working on > a 3 op-amp signal generator for the O2 input for benching > running ecms. Please contact me!. > Cheers > Bruce What would this circuit have to do, just generate a 0-1 volt signal or also react to the change in injector pulse duration and change the o2 reading accordingly ? Walter From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 15:32:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02769 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:32:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA02765 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:32:32 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-22.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.91]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id PAA13374 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:31:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: drag race corolla update caution long Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:33:03 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7ab8$1e2eda00$5b198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 1:16 PM Subject: Re: drag race corolla update caution long > >If you must use a GM ecu, try to get one from a Syclone/Typhoon or Trans Am >Turbo 3800. They were all speed density, but they will need to be re-mapped. > >Gary M. > The 89 Turbo Trans Am is a 1227148 MAF same as the 86-87 GN. The syclone, typhoon, sunbird (some) use the 1227749, MAP. At the GN-Ttype area they have tweaker, which allows you to modify some of the prom, and at www.syty.org (I think) they have promgrammer, for the syty proms. From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 15:34:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02823 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:34:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA02817 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:34:17 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas2-cs-22.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.91]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id PAA14077 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:33:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: O2 sensor duplicator Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:34:52 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7ab8$5ee85ee0$5b198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Walter To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: O2 sensor duplicator >> Some one (and I lost my note, so sorry list), was working on >> a 3 op-amp signal generator for the O2 input for benching >> running ecms. Please contact me!. >> Cheers >> Bruce > What would this circuit have to do, just generate a 0-1 >volt signal or >also react to the change in injector pulse duration and >change the o2 reading accordingly ? > Walter > Also react to injector pulse lenght. Bruce From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 18:03:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04503 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:03:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04499 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:03:36 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA15305 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:00:36 -0700 Received: from p57006.syspac.com (p57006.syspac.com [204.181.57.6]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA15300 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:00:34 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805082200.PAA15300@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:26:05 +0000 Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Garfield excuse for butting in, but can't you just power up for maximum flow and pressure then throttle either the intake or exhaust air for current control. The motor only draws enough current to move the air at the required volume and pressure which is determined by the orfice that the air has to pass through and can be mechanically controlled. Bob McKnight Phx AZ From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 18:11:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04615 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:11:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04610 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:11:50 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA16286 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:55 -0700 Received: from p57006.syspac.com (p57006.syspac.com [204.181.57.6]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA16283 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:53 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805082208.PAA16283@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:34:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Garfield Put your differential pressure gauge(sensor - manometer) across the orfice and look it up in the table. You know the size of the orfice, the delta pressure, and the medium - Air. you can determine the flow in the look up tables that you glue next to the manometer. Bob McKnight Phx AZ Ps Its been 40 years since I did this so I may have omitted something or else the physics may have changed. From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 18:11:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04620 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:11:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04616 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:11:53 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA16296 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:58 -0700 Received: from p57006.syspac.com (p57006.syspac.com [204.181.57.6]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA16289 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:55 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805082208.PAA16289@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:34:24 +0000 Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Garfield excuse for butting in, but can't you just power up for maximum flow and pressure then throttle either the intake or exhaust air for current control. The motor only draws enough current to move the air at the required volume and pressure which is determined by the orfice that the air has to pass through and can be mechanically controlled. Bob McKnight Phx AZ From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 18:15:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04716 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:15:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04712 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:15:34 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA16751 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:12:39 -0700 Received: from p57006.syspac.com (p57006.syspac.com [204.181.57.6]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA16746 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:12:36 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805082212.PAA16746@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:38:07 +0000 Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Garfield Do you have the new catalog from Surplus center. They have some Paxrton Blowers and I think motors for about $400. Bob McKnight Phx AZ From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 18:49:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05490 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:49:57 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05485 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:49:52 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp34.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.164]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA20049 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:49:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <355389E3.DA515E10@mwt.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:40:35 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <355ef501.28240281@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Why are you using a variable speed motor when two manual bleeders ( mom has a version on her vacuum )will do the job and only need AC motor. Im spending my money on the knife edge orifices .Unless you want to get fancy with it. Just a suggestion I may have missed something. Steve garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > On Fri, 8 May 1998 05:44:46 -0400 (EDT), Alain Toussaint > wrote: > > >> BUT, > >> just about all the blower motors all them FlowBench guys use now > are > >> AC/DC motors that can be easily thyristor controlled > > > >i think a word must be said about efficiency of the fan used there > > But, but , but it's already being done. This is how all the Quadrant > Scientific flow benches work, already. Since you are controlling the > motors in closed-loop, with diff. pressure drop across the DUT as your > > set point, as long as the blower motors don't LARGELY go to pot, you > don't really care if the efficiency isn't completely constant over the > > range you're varying the rpm. The other thing to observe is that these > > blower-motors aren't like single stage rotary or squirrel-cage fans; > they're actually more like lil 2-stage turbines inside. > > Maybe it's like EGOR and ION, they may seem like hard problems if we > were approaching them for the first time, and starting from first > principles, but an existence proof is worth a ton of speculation, and > once there's proof that it's been done, and that cheaply and > practically, then we can dispense with worrying about the "order" of > certain effects and issues, and just go DO IT. Thas eXactly why I > mentioned the Quadrant Sci stuff. > > Not tryna say that the issue of blower efficiency isn't REAL, just > that > given commercial implementations built around varying the blowers > under > thyristor control, it just can't be a show-stopper. Unless them guys > use > a special sauce the recipe for which is currently a trade secret, ala > Kernel Sanders. [BTW, I don't ever recall hearing of anyone > successfully > reverse-engineering his chicken, have you? Now THERE'S an example of > an > effective and well kept trade secret. Whew! Humbling, idn't it?; to > think that what stuff we're doing here is easier than tryna duplicate > someone's cooking yer fond of. Heh]. > > Garfield > (confirmed birdatarian; if you know the Kernel's recipe', lemme know! > I > gotta great zuccini-bread recipe' I'll trade ya. B) From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 19:22:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06017 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:22:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06011 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:22:15 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp34.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.164]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA22873 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:22:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3553917F.9D96B1BE@mwt.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:13:03 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199805082208.PAA16283@mailrelay.syspac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is the way i'm building mine . I will finish mine when knife edge orifices come in. Steve bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com wrote: > Garfield > > Put your differential pressure gauge(sensor - manometer) across the > orfice and look it up in the table. You know the size of the orfice, > the delta pressure, and the medium - Air. you can determine the flow > in the look up tables that you glue next to the manometer. > > Bob McKnight > Phx AZ > > Ps Its been 40 years since I did this so I may have omitted something > or else the physics may have changed. From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 20:08:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06502 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:08:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06498 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:07:57 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA22714 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:07:57 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:08:45 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35579e79.8779953@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <199805082212.PAA16746@mailrelay.syspac.com> In-Reply-To: <199805082212.PAA16746@mailrelay.syspac.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id UAA06499 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 8 May 1998 15:38:07 +0000, bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com wrote: >Do you have the new catalog from Surplus center. They have some >Paxrton Blowers and I think motors for about $400. Is this place on the web? Gar From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 20:12:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06555 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:12:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06551 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:12:30 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA22865 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:12:30 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:13:18 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35589edb.8877796@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <355ef501.28240281@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <355389E3.DA515E10@mwt.net> In-Reply-To: <355389E3.DA515E10@mwt.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id UAA06552 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 08 May 1998 17:40:35 -0500, Steven Gorkowski wrote: >Why are you using a variable speed motor when two manual bleeders ( mom >has a version on her vacuum )will do the job and only need AC motor. Im >spending my money on the knife edge orifices .Unless you want to get >fancy with it. Just a suggestion I may have missed something. Ahh, that's what's wonderful about experimentation, "to each his own". If you've ever looked at the insides of a SF-600, with all the orifice plates and manually adjustable bleeds, you'd see what I'm tryna avoid. And the blowers that just about EVERYBODY uses in multiples, are already AC/DC by their nature, so thas why that. Anyhoo, if ya gots a good single whopper blower/vacuum that runs on AC, then gopher it! Gar From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 22:37:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07686 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:37:07 -0400 Received: from netcom7.netcom.com (andrewg@netcom7.netcom.com [192.100.81.115]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07682 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:37:04 -0400 Received: from localhost (andrewg@localhost) by netcom7.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) with SMTP id TAA21940 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805090237.TAA21940@netcom7.netcom.com> X-Authentication-Warning: netcom7.netcom.com: andrewg@localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: ION Current measurement - was "And for our Next Trick ... How 'bout a diyTrionic?" In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 98 18:50:15 EDT." <199805082250.SAA05499@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Date: Fri, 08 May 98 19:37:02 -0700 From: Andrew Ghali Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 08 May 1998 15:42:09 +0100 Tony Cooper wrote >... >http://www.vehicular.isy.liu.se/Research/activity96/node5.html >... Here's another interesting site: http://www.mecel.se/my_html/body_Ion_Sense.htm It mentions that Mecel has a patent issued in 1984 on ionization current measurement used in Saab's DI system. If you follow the link at the bottom, there is a list of directly relevant papers about ION. Just my 0.02. Andrew From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 22:48:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07790 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:48:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07786 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:48:40 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (pstn30-as1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.189]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA17031 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:45:59 -0400 Message-ID: <3553C3E3.5ACB@huron.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:48:03 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Calculating Fuel Econ. from pulse times and mph References: <199805081604.LAA28624@horizon.hit.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Roger Heflin wrote: > > Hello, > > I have been trying to calculate fuel econ. from injector pulse times. > I have a batch fire vehicle, I believe I know what the number of times > per rpm that the injectors fire. I think the injecotrs fire once per > rpm (is this right). I know the injector rating (lb/hr), there ford > svo injectors which I believe means they are rated at 39 psi, my car > is running at 45 psi, so the injectors are doing 45/39 * 30 lb /hr. > Also the computer says the injecotr is on x.x ms. I am assuming that > is what the computer it telling the injectors to do. Are the ramp > up and ramp down times similar enough that you can assume that that > time is close enough, or are there some transient things that cause > the actual open time to be less than or greater than that number? > What I am really tring to do is figure out what the absolute best > gas mileage my car could get, if it was only crusing, with no braking > or acceleration, and also determine how badly different things affect > the gas mileage. > Roger Heflin > What you want to do is determine the ACTUAL fuel usage, as well as the ELECTRICAL time on of the injectors, then calculate the amount of flow per second of injector on time. Then all you have to do is have your computor, or whatever you are using, add this given fuel amount every second of real time. By inputting distance into the equasion, you can get MPG as well as GPH consumption. The CompuCruise system did this and was very accurate after a good calibration run. For a simple fuel totalizer, a calculator can be used. Have a circuit sum the injector on time, resetting every totalled second, with the reset closing the= key of the calculator. 0+(constant)=======. The constant is the # of partial gallons consumed per injector second. Every time the + key is closed, it gets added to the total. As for the circuit to time the "injector on" time, I can't help you, but lots of EEs out there surely can come up with something complicated, or mabee even simple:} -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 23:11:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08091 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:11:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.stargtr.net (root@mail.stargtr.net [198.78.56.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08086 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:11:30 -0400 Received: from msu.msstate.edu (sc61.stargtr.net [198.78.56.61]) by mail.stargtr.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA04869 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:16:01 -0500 Message-ID: <3553C9FF.7DB5@bully.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:14:07 -0500 From: Rogan X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: anyone use sds em-2 unit? References: <355ef501.28240281@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <355389E3.DA515E10@mwt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi I am new. Has anyone here used the em-2 unit from simple digital systems? What are your impressions on drivability for around town? Thanks, -David From diy_efi-owner Fri May 8 23:39:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08519 for diy_efi-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:39:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08515 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:39:51 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA15306 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:36:55 -0700 Received: from p57073.syspac.com (p57073.syspac.com [204.181.57.73]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA15303 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:36:53 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805090336.UAA15303@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 21:00:11 +0000 Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Garfield 5 HP High Pressure Blower 349.95 New, features a Paxton belt driven centrifugal blower RM87(similar to an automotive supercharger) 5 Hp TEFC two speed motor. Cast aluminum belt guard. Use for applications that require high pressure and volume Specs 5/1.25 Hp 208 volts AC 16/4 amps 3 phase 60 cycle (this may get you interested in phase converters) 3500/1750 rpm cont duty 13,000 blower rpm(these have a ball planetary drive system) 400 cfm 29 inches of water discharge pressure 3 1/2 inlet 3" outlet 15 1/2 X 13 1/2 X 19shping wt 95 pounds 1-800-487-3407 24 hrs a day 7 days a week 1015 West "O" St. PO Box 82209 Lincoln Nebraska 68501-2209 402-474-4055 FAX 402-474-5198 No e-mail Motors, generators hydraulics, and industrial surplus. Been around a long time. I bought a parts cleaner from them back in 1950. They have a little DC gear drive unit for childrens vehicles. It looks like just what I need for my "way out" sand buggy. electric steering with a joy stick. No servo, variable rate. steer your car like you steer your airplane. $7 This is on my - no more new projects, just finish what you started - list. Bob McKnight Phx AZ From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 00:56:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA09087 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:56:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA09083 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:56:18 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA29136 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:56:17 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: ION Project Papers & Info Sources Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 21:57:05 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <3563e11e.25840515@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <199805090237.TAA21940@netcom7.netcom.com> In-Reply-To: <199805090237.TAA21940@netcom7.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id AAA09084 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 08 May 98 19:37:02 -0700, Andrew Ghali wrote: >Here's another interesting site: > >http://www.mecel.se/my_html/body_Ion_Sense.htm > >It mentions that Mecel has a patent issued in 1984 on ionization current >measurement used in Saab's DI system. If you follow the link at the >bottom, there is a list of directly relevant papers about ION. > >Just my 0.02. Excellent little blurb there. Thanks, mate. ION thanks you too, I'm sure. B) Gar From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 01:45:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09538 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 01:45:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09534 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 01:45:10 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA44 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:45:10 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: ION Project Papers & Info Sources Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:45:57 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <3569e77c.27470390@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <199805090237.TAA21940@netcom7.netcom.com> <3563e11e.25840515@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> In-Reply-To: <3563e11e.25840515@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id BAA09535 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 08 May 1998 21:57:05 -0700, garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: >On Fri, 08 May 98 19:37:02 -0700, Andrew Ghali >wrote: >>http://www.mecel.se/my_html/body_Ion_Sense.htm >> >>It mentions that Mecel has a patent issued in 1984 on ionization current >>measurement used in Saab's DI system. > >Excellent little blurb there. Just a couple follow-up comments and some NEWS. In looking at Mecel's page a lil more, I see that the DI system (which DOES include ion sensing for cylinder commutation) was intro'd in '87, which means this stuff IS 10 years old. The other thing to note is that although the patent was issued in '84 and deployed in '87, there is a real dearth of articles/papers until the mid-ninties. In larger corporate circles, this usually means there was a "ban" on publishing sensitive info until several years and cash cows could be harvested. This is a likely indication that Saab WAS INDEED tryna keep the stuff secret for quite a few years. Now the bit of news. You will note on the Mecel page that there's been a DI system in the 9000s since 87/88? Well, a buddy of mine, who manages a Saab parts dept. and whom I've been plying with questions since this all started, today came up with some notes and a warrantee unit from a '90 Saab, and the lil board that does the Ion Detection stuff in those earlier models is readily viewable (unlike the later models, that are SERIOUSLY potted) if you remove the protective covers. On that lil board that stands up like a "module" SIP, the ONLY active parts are an LM-139 Quad Comparator (SGS-Thomson variety with cerdip and -25 to +125degC rating, so them guys know what they're doin) and a lone transistor. A sprinkling of the usual diodes and passive discretes, of course, but the point IS, it ain't no special sauce or any analog black magic, cuz there ain't even no op amps, so if there IS any filtering it's of the lowliest kind, since there is no active filtering possible on this board. I traced the circuit out enough to know for sure this IS the module that does the ion detection, cuz two of them comparators directly drive the signals that say which cylinder is firing. This is EXTREMELY encouraging, cuz if we can understand this technology, the circuitry to implement it obviously is pretty dirt simple AND dirt cheap. As a result of this latest intel, I am even more confident that after digesting the available papers and summing up all our fractional wits, we're VERY likely to get a workable DIY implementation. ION is beginning to smile upon us, methinks. Maybe if we're nice to her, she's tell us her secrets. B) Gar From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 01:58:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09637 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 01:58:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09633 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 01:58:17 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA250 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:58:17 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:59:05 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <356cef31.29443484@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <199805090336.UAA15303@mailrelay.syspac.com> In-Reply-To: <199805090336.UAA15303@mailrelay.syspac.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id BAA09634 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 8 May 1998 21:00:11 +0000, bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com wrote: >400 cfm 29 inches of water discharge pressure >3 1/2 inlet 3" outlet Hmmm, this is QUITE a find you have there, Bobert. Just about as perfect a match of requirements for a flow bench, as you could hope for. I'll definitely have a look. Besides, I've never done an AC motor speed controller before. But I see from my trade mags that it's quite the latest fad in electronic motor controllers. Might be a neat challenge to see about computer controlling the speed, cfm, pressure, etc. of this single monster blower. Sure be nicer packaging than a bunch of tandem smaller blowers all forcing a common plenum, which is the NORM with flow benches, even the most expensive ones, like SuperFlow makes. Neat, thanks for this excellent tip. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 03:03:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA10183 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@[208.147.154.56]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA10179 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:03:19 -0400 Received: from dciobota.HiWAAY.net (tnt3-90.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.90]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA27428 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 02:03:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3553FE9E.6F6987CA@hiwaay.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 01:58:38 -0500 From: Daniel Ciobota X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Calculating Fuel Econ. from pulse times and mph X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199805081604.LAA28624@horizon.hit.net> <3553C3E3.5ACB@huron.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I think I may have missed a few posts, so apologies if I repeat what's already been said. IMHO, using the A/F ratio and air meter values is better than integrating injector duty cycles over time. On my mustang, the fuel pressure is controlled by engine vacuum (on my race car, by boost as well), so, unless you've got your fuel pressure curve worked out pretty well, your calculations may contain significant error. Also, I may be wrong but I believe the ford injectors are rated at 39psi, 100% duty cycle (what is called the static point of the injector). Daniel Clare Snyder wrote: > Roger Heflin wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I have been trying to calculate fuel econ. from injector pulse > times. > > I have a batch fire vehicle, I believe I know what the number of > times > > per rpm that the injectors fire. I think the injecotrs fire once > per > > rpm (is this right). I know the injector rating (lb/hr), there ford > > > svo injectors which I believe means they are rated at 39 psi, my car > > > is running at 45 psi, so the injectors are doing 45/39 * 30 lb /hr. > > Also the computer says the injecotr is on x.x ms. I am assuming > that > > is what the computer it telling the injectors to do. Are the ramp > > up and ramp down times similar enough that you can assume that that > > time is close enough, or are there some transient things that cause > > the actual open time to be less than or greater than that number? > > What I am really tring to do is figure out what the absolute best > > gas mileage my car could get, if it was only crusing, with no > braking > > or acceleration, and also determine how badly different things > affect > > the gas mileage. > > Roger Heflin > > > What you want to do is determine the ACTUAL fuel usage, as well as the > > ELECTRICAL time on of the injectors, then calculate the amount of flow > > per second of injector on time. Then all you have to do is have your > computor, or whatever you are using, add this given fuel amount every > second of real time. By inputting distance into the equasion, you can > get MPG as well as GPH consumption. The CompuCruise system did this > and > was very accurate after a good calibration run. For a simple fuel > totalizer, a calculator can be used. Have a circuit sum the injector > on > time, resetting every totalled second, with the reset closing the= key > > of the calculator. 0+(constant)=======. The constant is the # of > partial > gallons consumed per injector second. Every time the + key is closed, > it > gets added to the total. As for the circuit to time the "injector on" > time, I can't help you, but lots of EEs out there surely can come up > with something complicated, or mabee even simple:} > -- > _/\_ > --|-----([])-----|-- > S 0/ \0 B > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > E-Mail service is back to normal > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > OR > Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the > spammers!!! > It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of > Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 04:26:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA10589 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 04:26:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA10585 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 04:26:26 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA16266 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:26:24 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 18:26:24 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805090826.SAA16266@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Holdens a little info X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >From what I'm told, the 3L Nissan motor was actually designed in Australia, by GM Holden engineers as a joint venture of Holden/Nissan. They were, of course, built by Nissan, and they were discontinued be Holden mainly because Nissan charged extortionate prices for them. Basically, they saw out their contract of purchase to Nissan, and then went as quickly to the VN's V6 as they could. At least, this is so I'm told. However, it would seem to be true, as lmy Father was looking at puting one of the Nissan engines into his HX Kingswood at one time, and at the Holden spare parts place, they told him $9000 for a short motor from the VL Commodore, and then they said that he would be better to go to a wrecker and get one. As it turned out, he would heve had to make engine bay mods to get it in, so he didn't bother. As for the V6 - Yes, it's a Buick, although I don't know what, exactly, but I'm told that it is a re-hash of an **OLD** engine (hence, the pushrods). As for the Ecotec V6... It's a completely redesigned engine, so I'm told (by a guy at the showroom a couple of years ago). Apparently, both the bore and stroke are different, there are more aerodynamic inlet, and exhaust manifolds, etc... Basically, it is a completely new engine, within the old casting, or, at least, so I'm told. Danny Barrett. >Also a lot of Red, Blue, Black aussie 6's like baby >292(?) inline (red ?) Chev 6's >138, (toranas only) >149,179 >161,186, >173,202 > a nissan 3L also (some one else will know more) > >V6 >Buicks (some one else will know which and what) From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 05:04:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA11009 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 05:04:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from chong.ihug.co.nz (root@chong.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA11004 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 05:03:59 -0400 Received: from ihug.co.nz (p7-max26.auck.ihug.co.nz [207.212.238.134]) by chong.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00249 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 21:03:49 +1200 Message-ID: <35541C18.DFAD46BB@ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 21:04:24 +1200 From: "Hamish Hubbard (and Ode)" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Rover Mini MEMS Engine Computer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Greetings, I am not a subscriber to the mailing list but I would greatly appreciate any information you could cc to my email address. I am searching for any technical info I can get about the Rover MEMS engine management computer as found in the Rover Mini and other cars. Anything at all would be much appreciated - please send anything that you know. Areas of information I am looking for: - Type and spec of CPU, RAM/ROM used. - Is the MEMS system based on another one (I have heard someone mention Motronic). - What are some of the algorithms that it uses (even in the broadest sense), e.g. does it interpolate between mappings, what does it do if you unplug various sensors. - Is there a list of the error codes. - Voltages/waveforms it accepts from various sensors. - How it behaves under various conditions. I already have the service manual excerpt for the Mini but it goes into very little detail about the computer. Please send anything you know, even knowing the CPU type would be a great help. Thanks for your assistance, Hamish From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 05:10:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA11120 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 05:10:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA11114 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 05:10:35 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA19944 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:10:34 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 19:10:34 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805090910.TAA19944@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Spark plugs/injectors X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Does anyone know if it is possible to get spark plugs with fuel injectors built in? I have seen one of the list members write about keeping the intake pressure as close to atmospherice as possible (and varying the power/speed by the amount of fuel pumped in). There is one problem with this - It is very hard to get a reliable combustion from mixtures leaner than 18:1. There is a solution to this problem (from what my Thermodynamics textbook says). This is by charging the cylinder with a non-uniform mixture. ie: around 14.5:1 around the spark plug, and virtually nothiing elsewhere (where required). This, it has called "stratified charging." Apparently, engines have been successfully developed and run in the laboratory, but not in production cars (or at least, we've not seen them...). The book was first published in 1957, with the third edition (the edition that I have) published in 1980. I think it is fair to say that our EFI technology has advanced quite a long way since 1980. So... Why can't we build direct injection petrol engines that vary the mixture instead of the amount of air going in? Since we now have sequential fuel injection, knock sensors (even the Trionic one that we seem to hear so much about on this list - go for it gentlemen...), etc... Why can't we make a direct injection petrol engine that uses a combined spark plug/fuel injector, so that we can use stratified charging to our advantage? I reallise that there are problems associated with NOx gases produced in excess when lean mixtures are used, but isn't that what the catalytic converter is for? Also, wouldn't it be worth just a little bit more NOx in the air (yes, I know NO2 is a poison), for the sake of using far less fuel, and having less benzine rings (which can cause cancer) floating around in the air??? Or is there something I've missed? Danny Barrett. From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 06:21:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11695 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:21:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.online.de (root@mail.online.de [193.158.2.93]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11691 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:21:22 -0400 Received: from ascentia-900n(really [193.159.68.74]) by mail.online.de via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:21:45 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #2 built DST-Jun-10) Message-Id: From: "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> To: Subject: Re: ION Project Papers & Info Sources Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 11:26:30 +0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu HI, Gar sounds great what you have found out! What influence does this ion sensor have on the e.f.i. or ignition system?? And what are the output signals created from ECU given to the engine??? Joachim ---------- > Von: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com > An: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Betreff: Re: ION Project Papers & Info Sources > Datum: Samstag, 9. Mai 1998 08:45 > > On Fri, 08 May 1998 21:57:05 -0700, garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > > >On Fri, 08 May 98 19:37:02 -0700, Andrew Ghali > >wrote: > >>http://www.mecel.se/my_html/body_Ion_Sense.htm > >> > >>It mentions that Mecel has a patent issued in 1984 on ionization current > >>measurement used in Saab's DI system. > > > >Excellent little blurb there. > > Just a couple follow-up comments and some NEWS. In looking at Mecel's > page a lil more, I see that the DI system (which DOES include ion > sensing for cylinder commutation) was intro'd in '87, which means this > stuff IS 10 years old. The other thing to note is that although the > patent was issued in '84 and deployed in '87, there is a real dearth of > articles/papers until the mid-ninties. In larger corporate circles, this > usually means there was a "ban" on publishing sensitive info until > several years and cash cows could be harvested. This is a likely > indication that Saab WAS INDEED tryna keep the stuff secret for quite a > few years. > > Now the bit of news. You will note on the Mecel page that there's been a > DI system in the 9000s since 87/88? Well, a buddy of mine, who manages a > Saab parts dept. and whom I've been plying with questions since this all > started, today came up with some notes and a warrantee unit from a '90 > Saab, and the lil board that does the Ion Detection stuff in those > earlier models is readily viewable (unlike the later models, that are > SERIOUSLY potted) if you remove the protective covers. On that lil board > that stands up like a "module" SIP, the ONLY active parts are an LM-139 > Quad Comparator (SGS-Thomson variety with cerdip and -25 to +125degC > rating, so them guys know what they're doin) and a lone transistor. A > sprinkling of the usual diodes and passive discretes, of course, but the > point IS, it ain't no special sauce or any analog black magic, cuz there > ain't even no op amps, so if there IS any filtering it's of the lowliest > kind, since there is no active filtering possible on this board. I > traced the circuit out enough to know for sure this IS the module that > does the ion detection, cuz two of them comparators directly drive the > signals that say which cylinder is firing. This is EXTREMELY > encouraging, cuz if we can understand this technology, the circuitry to > implement it obviously is pretty dirt simple AND dirt cheap. As a result > of this latest intel, I am even more confident that after digesting the > available papers and summing up all our fractional wits, we're VERY > likely to get a workable DIY implementation. ION is beginning to smile > upon us, methinks. Maybe if we're nice to her, she's tell us her > secrets. B) > > Gar > From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 07:35:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12130 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 07:35:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.online.de (root@mail.online.de [193.158.2.93]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12126 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 07:35:18 -0400 Received: from ascentia-900n(really [193.159.146.250]) by mail.online.de via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:35:42 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #2 built DST-Jun-10) Message-Id: From: "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> To: Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 13:39:40 +0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Danny! There are already some direct petrol engines on the market!!!! Mitsubishi was the first one! The have the GDI-Engine ready, it's sold even here in Germany at least for 6 - 7 months now! And the other thing is: lean mixtures can be burnt very good, but not with an "unformatted" or unspecified energy which is used for ignition. The ignition energy must have the correct phase/magnitude-ratio to burn really the fuel! And then also the NOx - problem can be reduced greatly. There is a impulse oscillator ignition system on the market here in Germany which can do both of it perfectly. If you need such a system, give me the type of car and I can probably arrange for you. ( I think price was around 149.- $US) and can use it when your ignition cable from the coil to the distributor is exchangeable. Joachim ---------- > Von: Danny Barrett > An: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Betreff: Spark plugs/injectors > Datum: Samstag, 9. Mai 1998 12:10 > > Does anyone know if it is possible to get spark plugs with fuel injectors > built in? I have seen one of the list members write about keeping the intake > pressure as close to atmospherice as possible (and varying the power/speed > by the amount of fuel pumped in). There is one problem with this - It is > very hard to get a reliable combustion from mixtures leaner than 18:1. There > is a solution to this problem (from what my Thermodynamics textbook says). > This is by charging the cylinder with a non-uniform mixture. ie: around > 14.5:1 around the spark plug, and virtually nothiing elsewhere (where > required). This, it has called "stratified charging." Apparently, engines > have been successfully developed and run in the laboratory, but not in > production cars (or at least, we've not seen them...). The book was first > published in 1957, with the third edition (the edition that I have) > published in 1980. I think it is fair to say that our EFI technology has > advanced quite a long way since 1980. So... Why can't we build direct > injection petrol engines that vary the mixture instead of the amount of air > going in? Since we now have sequential fuel injection, knock sensors (even > the Trionic one that we seem to hear so much about on this list - go for it > gentlemen...), etc... Why can't we make a direct injection petrol engine > that uses a combined spark plug/fuel injector, so that we can use stratified > charging to our advantage? I reallise that there are problems associated > with NOx gases produced in excess when lean mixtures are used, but isn't > that what the catalytic converter is for? Also, wouldn't it be worth just a > little bit more NOx in the air (yes, I know NO2 is a poison), for the sake > of using far less fuel, and having less benzine rings (which can cause > cancer) floating around in the air??? Or is there something I've missed? > > Danny Barrett. > From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 08:06:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12368 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:06:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from acaix1.ucis.dal.ca (acaix1.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.50]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12364 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:06:07 -0400 Received: from is2.dal.ca (root@IS2.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.66]) by acaix1.ucis.dal.ca (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA30800 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:06:06 -0300 Received: from rm202 (rm202.res.Tuns.Ca [134.190.18.35]) by is2.dal.ca (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24982 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:06:06 -0300 Message-ID: <000e01bd7b42$4823b6c0$2312be86@rm202.res.tuns.ca> From: "Dennis" To: Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 09:02:04 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3007.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3007.0 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Danny Barrett To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 6:45 AM Subject: Spark plugs/injectors Check the mitsubishi motors site. They have a direct injection system that does just this as does the OMC outboard marine injection. They use a distinct injector within the cylinder head supplied at very high pressure. The mitsubishi site has a good description . Hope I have helped Dennis Fagundo fagunddj@is2.dal.ca dfagundo@ibl.bm Technical University of Nova Scotia >Does anyone know if it is possible to get spark plugs with fuel injectors >built in....... Stuff Cut........There is one problem with this - It is >very hard to get a reliable combustion from mixtures leaner than 18:1. There >is a solution to this problem (from what my Thermodynamics textbook says). >This is by charging the cylinder with a non-uniform mixture. ie: around >14.5:1 around the spark plug, and virtually nothiing elsewhere (where >required). This, it has called "stratified charging." Apparently, engines Stuff cut > >Danny Barrett. > > From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 10:12:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13026 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:12:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ihgw2.lucent.com (ihgw2.lucent.com [207.19.48.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13022 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:12:14 -0400 Received: from emsr1.emsr.lucent.com by ihig2.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id JAA11240; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:02:01 -0500 Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id KAA14387 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu.smtp; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:12:08 -0400 From: kenkelly@lucent.com Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id KAA14381 for efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:12:07 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Received: from lucent.com ([135.5.38.32]) by pace10.wh.lucent.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA19997; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:07:32 -0400 Message-Id: <3554637C.186B087F@lucent.com> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 10:09:00 -0400 Original-From: Ken Kelly Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-EMS-1.4 (Win95; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 Original-To: efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi Subject: GM ECM Flash programmer References: <000e01bd7b42$4823b6c0$2312be86@rm202.res.tuns.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu 1) Has anyone found a shareware or reasonably priced software package to reprogram the 94 & up GM EEProm ECM's. 2) Does anyone have a document describing the interface protocol to read or write the EEprom. Even a simple Peek & Poke command would be a good start. Thanks in advance for any leads Ken From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 10:44:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13256 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:44:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13252 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:44:36 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA13369 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 07:41:41 -0700 Received: from p57048.syspac.com (p57048.syspac.com [204.181.57.48]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA13364 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 07:41:39 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805091441.HAA13364@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 07:34:05 +0000 Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Danny I think that Toyota has this engine available in smal l quantities in Japan., he SAE magazine showed pictures of the combustion sequence about a year ago. very impressive, also very sophisticated control of injector timing. The injector operated several times prior to combustion to build the proper shape of the charge. Please check this info out, its been a year probably and sometimes I screw information up. Bob McKnight Phx AZ From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 11:22:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13682 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:22:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13678 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:22:07 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA9377 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:22:06 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: ION Project Papers & Info Sources Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 08:22:55 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <355d72bc.27530812@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id LAA13679 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 9 May 1998 11:26:30 +0300, "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> wrote: >What influence does this ion sensor >have on the e.f.i. or ignition system?? And what are the output signals >created from ECU given to the engine??? Eh? You musta just joined the thread. This has been discussed previously, so I'll just give ya a summary, and you can crawl up the thread for more of the details. The ionization sensing gives two basic things to the ECU. One is signals to tell it if a jug fired or not (which they use instead of a cam sensor, and also for misfire detection). The second input to the ECU is an analog signal (is read by an A/D in the ECU) representing the actual analog ionization current, which they scan with the A/D to detect things like knock. This information is used to modify spark advance, boost limits, and even enrichment (enrichment is tried if backing off on adv & boost alone doesn't do the trick, according to the Saab manual). There are no special inputs TO this IGN signal from the ECU, other than the normal ones to tell the plugs to fire. So it's basically a simple CDI system, with special sensor technology using the plugs, to return correct plug firing, and detonation/pre-ignition info to the ECU. That's it in a nutshell. Anything very clever done to the analog Ionization current is being done INSIDE the ECU by the cpu, once the A/D is read. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 12:56:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14430 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:56:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from soleil.acomp.usf.edu (soleil.acomp.usf.edu [131.247.100.19]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14426 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:56:34 -0400 Received: from centauri (tampappp207.net.usf.edu [131.247.166.207]) by soleil.acomp.usf.edu (8.8.7/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA17297 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:57:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805091657.MAA17297@soleil.acomp.usf.edu> From: "Jake Lindeke" Organization: Supra Owners Group International To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 13:02:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: small PC used as a Car mp3 player Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3553C9FF.7DB5@bully.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu A few weeks back someone posted about a web page where a guy made a din sized PC for his miata to play mp3's in his car. could someone send me that address? thanks --Jake Lindeke --SOGI South-East Chapter Coordinator --http://sesogi.bsfh.org From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 14:05:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15024 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:05:57 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lsi.lsil.com (lsi.lsil.com [147.145.40.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15020 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:05:53 -0400 Received: from mhbs.lsil.com ([147.145.29.36]) by lsi.lsil.com with ESMTP id LAA27313 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6 for ); Sat, 9 May 1998 11:05:53 -0700 Received: from [147.145.143.10] by mhbs.lsil.com; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:05:22 -0700 Received: from mm104.minn by mms10 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA20657; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:04:58 -0500 Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 13:04:58 -0500 From: mdill@lsil.com (Mike Dillon) Message-Id: <199805091804.NAA20657@mms10> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Calculating Fuel Econ. from pulse times and mph Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The vacuum control actually holds the pressure across the injector constant. In this case the injector duty cycle would be pretty good indication of the amount of fuel used. In the case where the presure with respect to atm. did not vary with manifold vacuum, the presure across the injector would vary and the duty cycle would be an inacurate measurment of fuel flow. (unless you did the fuel flow MAP duty cycle table thing) I think this is correct but I have an open mind. Mike D > From diy_efi-owner@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Sat May 9 03:19 CDT 1998 > From: Daniel Ciobota > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) > > I think I may have missed a few posts, so apologies if I repeat what's > already been said. IMHO, using the A/F ratio and air meter values is > better than integrating injector duty cycles over time. On my mustang, > the fuel pressure is controlled by engine vacuum (on my race car, by > boost as well), so, unless you've got your fuel pressure curve worked > out pretty well, your calculations may contain significant error. Also, > I may be wrong but I believe the ford injectors are rated at 39psi, 100% > duty cycle (what is called the static point of the injector). > > > Daniel > > > Clare Snyder wrote: > > > Roger Heflin wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I have been trying to calculate fuel econ. from injector pulse > > times. > > > I have a batch fire vehicle, I believe I know what the number of > > times > > > per rpm that the injectors fire. I think the injecotrs fire once > > per > > > rpm (is this right). I know the injector rating (lb/hr), there ford > > > > > svo injectors which I believe means they are rated at 39 psi, my car > > > > > is running at 45 psi, so the injectors are doing 45/39 * 30 lb /hr. > > > Also the computer says the injecotr is on x.x ms. I am assuming > > that > > > is what the computer it telling the injectors to do. Are the ramp > > > up and ramp down times similar enough that you can assume that that > > > time is close enough, or are there some transient things that cause > > > the actual open time to be less than or greater than that number? > > > What I am really tring to do is figure out what the absolute best > > > gas mileage my car could get, if it was only crusing, with no > > braking > > > or acceleration, and also determine how badly different things > > affect > > > the gas mileage. > > > Roger Heflin > > > > > What you want to do is determine the ACTUAL fuel usage, as well as the > > > > ELECTRICAL time on of the injectors, then calculate the amount of flow > > > > per second of injector on time. Then all you have to do is have your > > computor, or whatever you are using, add this given fuel amount every > > second of real time. By inputting distance into the equasion, you can > > get MPG as well as GPH consumption. The CompuCruise system did this > > and > > was very accurate after a good calibration run. For a simple fuel > > totalizer, a calculator can be used. Have a circuit sum the injector > > on > > time, resetting every totalled second, with the reset closing the= key > > > > of the calculator. 0+(constant)=======. The constant is the # of > > partial > > gallons consumed per injector second. Every time the + key is closed, > > it > > gets added to the total. As for the circuit to time the "injector on" > > time, I can't help you, but lots of EEs out there surely can come up > > with something complicated, or mabee even simple:} > > -- > > _/\_ > > --|-----([])-----|-- > > S 0/ \0 B > > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > > E-Mail service is back to normal > > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages > > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > > OR > > Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the > > spammers!!! > > It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of > > Turkeys!!! > > > > > From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 15:51:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15774 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:51:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15770 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:51:29 -0400 Received: from DemonTSi@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8SHGa18945 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:50:40 -0400 (EDT) From: DemonTSi Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:50:40 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: small PC used as a Car mp3 player Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 98-05-09 13:03:31 EDT, jlindeke@bsfh.org writes: << A few weeks back someone posted about a web page where a guy made a din sized PC for his miata to play mp3's in his car. could someone send me that address? thanks >> I think this should be the one you're refering to: http://utter.chaos.org.uk/~altman/mp3mobile/ BTW, any idea on how difficult it would be to replicate something like this? I'd like to have an auto-mp3 player too! :) Van From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 16:15:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16014 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:15:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16010 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:15:26 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp19-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.68]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA09198 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:12:48 -0400 Message-ID: <3554BAE4.42E9@huron.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 16:21:56 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors References: <199805090910.TAA19944@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Danny Barrett wrote: > > Does anyone know if it is possible to get spark plugs with fuel injectors > built in? I have seen one of the list members write about keeping the intake > pressure as close to atmospherice as possible (and varying the power/speed > by the amount of fuel pumped in). There is one problem with this - It is > very hard to get a reliable combustion from mixtures leaner than 18:1. There > is a solution to this problem (from what my Thermodynamics textbook says). > This is by charging the cylinder with a non-uniform mixture. ie: around > 14.5:1 around the spark plug, and virtually nothiing elsewhere (where > required). This, it has called "stratified charging." Apparently, engines > have been successfully developed and run in the laboratory, but not in > production cars (or at least, we've not seen them...). Tell Honda it can't be done. They sold a ton of stratified charge CVCC cars in the early 80's _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 16:47:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16578 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:47:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from buffy.tpgi.com.au (buffy.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16574 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:47:01 -0400 Received: (from smtpd@localhost) by buffy.tpgi.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA28831 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:47:35 +1000 Received: from gou-ppp-079.tpgi.com.au(203.29.140.79), claiming to be "acer-p166" via SMTP by buffy.tpgi.com.au, id smtpda28824; Sun May 10 06:47:27 1998 Message-ID: <3554C219.756D@tpgi.com.au> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 06:52:41 +1000 From: Justin Albury X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Holdens a little info References: <3.0.1.32.19980508110641.00a76c60@qtc-mail> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Wayne Blair wrote: > > A little info about some engines used in Holdens: > > V8 used in production > CHEV: 307 327 350 > > Aussie V8's > (have always been faster and stronger than chevs and fords of same design > and capacity - production volume has been only impediment to aftermarket > and further development. [Repco Brabham was a 5L GP engine was an offshoot > of the Aussie v8 - maybe?]. That should but the possum in the kitchen ;^) ) > > 253 small bore 308 > 308 4 inch bore > 304 destroked to 4999cc under 5L for racing homolagation and complete head > redesign to make use of EFI > > The baby 55 57 chev looking cars used 6cyl from GM Canada > Grey motors/Side plates, used siamesesd intake port. (Like old blue flames > chevs ? ) > > 132 ci > 138 ci > > Also a lot of Red, Blue, Black aussie 6's like baby > 292(?) inline (red ?) Chev 6's > 138, (toranas only) > 149,179 > 161,186, > 173,202 > a nissan 3L also (some one else will know more) > > V6 > Buicks (some one else will know which and what) > > Hey Justin - wanna add any info so the overseas guys get the full picture > on downunder GMs? > > wayne hi guys and girls well waynes about got.... apart from the short run of chev stuff the rest of thr ozie stuff is home grown inline 6 cyl as wayne said above v8 stuff also above but also a 5.7lit version of the 304(4.9/5.0) in the awwwwwsom efi engine v6 is buick 3800 stuff with only minor changes for the ozie market, but are all rear wheel drive. first we used the 3800 series 1 engine with staged ports and a rope type rearmain oil seal(VN commodore) then we canged the intake and heads but still used the same stuff as befour (VP Commodore) then wh put and alloy plate around the rearmain and used a full seal and added a cam sensor and used grouped injection (VR Commodore) then we used the buick 3800 series II block and heads with even ports (in-ex-in-ex-in-ex) 4 bolt mains sexy intake and a endplate which housed the rearmain and took away the need for welsh plugs at the rear of the engine. (vs commodore) then we added the supercharger to the series II and now we get 185kw from the good old buick 3800 which was designed in the us back in 1962. any questions?? justin From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 16:49:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16619 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:49:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from buffy.tpgi.com.au (buffy.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16611 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:48:58 -0400 Received: (from smtpd@localhost) by buffy.tpgi.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA28930 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:49:25 +1000 Received: from gou-ppp-079.tpgi.com.au(203.29.140.79), claiming to be "acer-p166" via SMTP by buffy.tpgi.com.au, id smtpda28919; Sun May 10 06:49:07 1998 Message-ID: <3554C27D.7242@tpgi.com.au> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 06:54:21 +1000 From: Justin Albury X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DIY_EFI Subject: metric/af converter Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AD335E1CD4" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AD335E1CD4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit try this for quick conversions justin --------------AD335E1CD4 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Convert.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Convert.com" TVqJACYAAAACAL0HvQvvCIAAurwAAAAAHACDAGRpZXT5nOsJQvcKAM3GVficBh5XVlJRU1AO /IzIujQIA9BSuqwKUrqwBAPCi9gFPwSO247AM/Yz/7kIAPOlS0hKee6Ow47YvmcArYvoshDL ZGx6ICxJK9kAcIv//1WJ5etC99vEzcbd09zAlP//nNedlIWNjYWYlI2HlEqU5H8/3N3YlOPR 1tb09dic8fXbx/nRx9H//8bC0dCUw9vG2NDD3dDR/Iz//9q4AACO2MR+BL4FALhCAKr/f4nB MdusAcM0tKri+I7aXcP3/5c67JLzkpz+08Sc8f+PiP6FkJz22czM2c/I0zEQy9L0jozs+u7u 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X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from buffy.tpgi.com.au (buffy.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16726 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:54:42 -0400 Received: (from smtpd@localhost) by buffy.tpgi.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA29336 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:55:16 +1000 Received: from gou-ppp-079.tpgi.com.au(203.29.140.79), claiming to be "acer-p166" via SMTP by buffy.tpgi.com.au, id smtpda29323; Sun May 10 06:55:13 1998 Message-ID: <3554C3EC.2AEC@tpgi.com.au> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 07:00:28 +1000 From: Justin Albury X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Holdens a little info References: <01BD7ABE.97F78D40@PJARAMAZ > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Peter Jaramaz wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > Just being picky :-) > > ---------- > From: Wayne Blair > Sent: Friday, May 08, 1998 11:06 AM > To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Holdens a little info > > A little info about some engines used in Holdens: > > V8 used in production > CHEV: 307 327 350 > > Aussie V8's > (have always been faster and stronger than chevs and fords of same design > > The 308 was more powerful than the 307, but the 307 was never the perfomance engine. The chev was once the darling of the hot up set over the early 308s. Now with heaps of development the 308 is a very good alternative. > > and capacity - production volume has been only impediment to aftermarket > and further development. [Repco Brabham was a 5L GP engine was an offshoot > of the Aussie v8 - maybe?]. That should but the possum in the kitchen ;^) ) > > 253 small bore 308 > 308 4 inch bore > 304 destroked to 4999cc under 5L for racing homolagation and complete head > redesign to make use of EFI > > The destroke happened in about 1985 but still made use of the Q-Jet carb and the B (For Brock) head castings for the perfomance models. VL v8 which was the last carbed job made 127kW on unleaded. > > The baby 55 57 chev looking cars used 6cyl from GM Canada > Grey motors/Side plates, used siamesesd intake port. (Like old blue flames > chevs ? ) > > 132 ci > 138 ci > > Yep, we got the grey. Classic motor for its time > > Also a lot of Red, Blue, Black aussie 6's like baby > 292(?) inline (red ?) Chev 6's > 138, (toranas only) > 149,179 > 161,186, > 173,202 > > Oh yeah, saw an ancient C60 chev truck and the motor looked like a stretched 292 in almost evry detail even down to dizzy pos and sideplates. > > a nissan 3L also (some one else will know more) > > RB30 also in turbo variant -150kW, mid 15 1.4s, low 7s to 100kmh. > > V6 > Buicks (some one else will know which and what) > > Early RWD 3800 in the VN-VR, ecotec or the latest revision for the VS onwards > > Hey Justin - wanna add any info so the overseas guys get the full picture > on downunder GMs? > > Ive got a tone of info. Just digging it up is the prob :-( > > wayne > > Peter > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Part 1.2 Type: application/ms-tnef > Encoding: base64 true about the vl but also the vl was the first of the efi 304 with the totaly awsome group-a version 4.9 efi the rb30 is a nissan inline 6 that weighed 14 kg more and 7 kw less than the series 1 3800 v6........hey but then we also added a turbo... :-) justin From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 16:58:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16825 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:58:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from buffy.tpgi.com.au (buffy.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16820 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:58:22 -0400 Received: (from smtpd@localhost) by buffy.tpgi.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA29545 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:58:56 +1000 Received: from gou-ppp-079.tpgi.com.au(203.29.140.79), claiming to be "acer-p166" via SMTP by buffy.tpgi.com.au, id smtpda29538; Sun May 10 06:58:42 1998 Message-ID: <3554C4BD.66DF@tpgi.com.au> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 07:03:57 +1000 From: Justin Albury X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. References: <01bd7a91$20423b60$4c198fd1@nacelp> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------16871B6C6F63" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------16871B6C6F63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 10:39 AM > Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. > >> > >> >the group-A it is a twin t-bodie setup with a huge plemin chamber with > >> >stright runners that if you shine a light down the runner you can see > >> >the valve and up the top end are some s/steel trumpets which with little > >> >mods can be made adjustable........these little babys are good for 400kw > >> >now that is 500hp+ std t-bodies are 1000cfm and they ran bosch green > >> >injectors with a delco p4 808 ecm :-) > >> > > > Anybody have a bin off of something like that??. Yep curious > Cone Shaped Hat Wearers gotta ask to see em.. > Cheers > Bruce e-mail response to nacelp@bright.net Subject > classified response to CSH World HQ.. > Hey it's Friday. try this...ambx this was the the production version.....when played with ....welll :-) justin --------------16871B6C6F63 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Vlv8ambx.std" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Vlv8ambx.std" G00JbwEJc4VdHUUTCxEB/+//UQsZCf9tAwEhMT1LgRkBQasHgR0dURUBQQH/ITn/EaEFIf8j OS8vRy8fHR0dHRERAQsnOSsjFRUVFRUVEVFRUUdFPzUzJyEVUVFRTU1LOzs5OTlRUVFbUU9H R0dHRzk5ZWVjYVVVT0tLK1VlZWVVVVVVUVFHVWVhaWdlW1VVVTlRYWVrZWVhX1lVOUtfZW9v bWVfW1U5UWVvaWVlX1tbVTlVaWdlZWVhX11VOVtvaWdlZWVfW1UpQQU9P0VLUT0/RUtRPT9F S1E7P0NDQzs9QUFBOT0/Pz85Oz09Pzk5OTk5OTk5OTk5OTkzMzk5KysrOTkrKyshAQ8BAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEB 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X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.online.de (root@mail.online.de [193.158.2.93]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16999 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 17:04:36 -0400 Received: from ascentia-900n(really [193.159.68.95]) by mail.online.de via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:05:12 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #2 built DST-Jun-10) Message-Id: From: "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> To: Subject: Re: ION Project Papers & Info Sources Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 23:09:18 +0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks so much, Gar for your kind explanation, I joined your conversation first time yesterday so I surely missed the earlier discussion. Can I find it anywhere? But one thing's not quite clear to me about the ION-Sensor: What is the advantage if they don't use it to modulate the following ignition signal in a closed loop with the rest of the information out of the combustion chamber after burning. That would be the real thing do do! This would bring the quality of combustion up! By the way how important is the quality aspect of combustion (exhaust temperature, heat transfer, noise, lifetime of engine, acceleration, max torque, a.s.o.) for you and for the people here in the group? Joachim ---------- > Von: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com > An: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Betreff: Re: ION Project Papers & Info Sources > Datum: Samstag, 9. Mai 1998 18:22 > > On Sat, 9 May 1998 11:26:30 +0300, "Joachim M. Wagner" > <1028-156@online.de> wrote: > > >What influence does this ion sensor > >have on the e.f.i. or ignition system?? And what are the output signals > >created from ECU given to the engine??? > > Eh? You musta just joined the thread. This has been discussed > previously, so I'll just give ya a summary, and you can crawl up the > thread for more of the details. > > The ionization sensing gives two basic things to the ECU. One is signals > to tell it if a jug fired or not (which they use instead of a cam > sensor, and also for misfire detection). The second input to the ECU is > an analog signal (is read by an A/D in the ECU) representing the actual > analog ionization current, which they scan with the A/D to detect things > like knock. This information is used to modify spark advance, boost > limits, and even enrichment (enrichment is tried if backing off on adv & > boost alone doesn't do the trick, according to the Saab manual). > > There are no special inputs TO this IGN signal from the ECU, other than > the normal ones to tell the plugs to fire. So it's basically a simple > CDI system, with special sensor technology using the plugs, to return > correct plug firing, and detonation/pre-ignition info to the ECU. That's > it in a nutshell. > > Anything very clever done to the analog Ionization current is being done > INSIDE the ECU by the cpu, once the A/D is read. > > Gar > From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 17:20:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17393 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 17:20:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.online.de (root@mail.online.de [193.158.2.93]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17388 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 17:20:02 -0400 Received: from ascentia-900n(really [193.159.68.97]) by mail.online.de via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:20:36 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #2 built DST-Jun-10) Message-Id: From: "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> To: Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 23:24:38 +0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu That's it! Jo ---------- > Von: Clare Snyder > An: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Betreff: Re: Spark plugs/injectors > Datum: Samstag, 9. Mai 1998 23:21 > > Danny Barrett wrote: > > > > Does anyone know if it is possible to get spark plugs with fuel injectors > > built in? I have seen one of the list members write about keeping the intake > > pressure as close to atmospherice as possible (and varying the power/speed > > by the amount of fuel pumped in). There is one problem with this - It is > > very hard to get a reliable combustion from mixtures leaner than 18:1. There > > is a solution to this problem (from what my Thermodynamics textbook says). > > This is by charging the cylinder with a non-uniform mixture. ie: around > > 14.5:1 around the spark plug, and virtually nothiing elsewhere (where > > required). This, it has called "stratified charging." Apparently, engines > > have been successfully developed and run in the laboratory, but not in > > production cars (or at least, we've not seen them...). > > > Tell Honda it can't be done. They sold a ton of stratified charge CVCC > cars in the early 80's > _/\_ > --|-----([])-----|-- > S 0/ \0 B > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > E-Mail service is back to normal > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > OR > Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the > spammers!!! > It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of > Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 18:43:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18457 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:43:03 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from blackie.cruzers.com (cruzers.com [205.215.232.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18453 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:43:00 -0400 Received: from 205.215.232.54 (surf54.cruzers.com [205.215.232.54]) by blackie.cruzers.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA14687 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3554E9A8.214F@cruzers.com> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 15:42:23 -0800 From: Ludis Langens X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diy_efi Subject: Re: Questions about EGOR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu wrote: > Since most all the devices, excepting the idea I mention below, > can be had in surface mount, the entire EGOR board is likely gonna fit > in something WAY shorter than a 40-pin 0.6" DIP. Yep, you heard me > right, it's that small. Cool! (Thoughts of putting an EGOR inside of a GM MEMCAL - along with the EPROM, limp-home calibration, and knock sensor filter... probably not a good idea though.) > My own preference would be that you'd use 12v and this > regulator, cuz the regulator spec'd in the design is a special one for > automotive, that has all kinds of protection, [...] > The precision references run off this 5V, so I'd want a > good regulator looking over them. I'd probably be using EGOR inside of an OEM ECM which already has a power supply with an alphabet soup of features. Plus it turns itself on and off as needed. This supply is also used as the upper end reference for the AtoD. > It's so low, I > didn't bother adding it up, but I'd say way below 50mA @ 5V. But again, > I'd prefer you going off B+ like another other sensor, rather than a > slave off the ECM, [...] 50mA? No problem. BTW, most of GM's sensors run off of 5V. (CTS, MAT, and some switches from the same supply as the CPU. MAP and TPS from a second 5V.) > If the Ion pump connector gets > shorted to gnd, you're gonna spill 13mA at most into the crapper, and > WAY less in the case of the VsCell bias, so not to worry about EGOR > hemorrhaging. OK, with a 13mA short circuit current, it could safely run off the main 5V supply. > >Is EGOR's 0 to 5V signal output range a "natural" range? > > "Natural"? that's a new one on me. What I meant is this: Is there some physical phenomena requiring the 5V range? For example, an old fashioned O2 sensor has a ~1V range 'cause that's the way it works. Whereas 74xx TTL runs on 5V because some standards commitee decided so. In other words, are you applying a 5V range to the sensor? Or is it from an intermediate node which swings rail to rail? > I'd say any system that > expected ANY output to be able to drive 1K into 5V is really asking for > disgusting jokes about their mama. That's pretty low impedance. No kidding! That's why I asked. > Course, you gonna pay for that with increased supply > load, but it's still only another 10% of budget, so no sweat. The increased supply load comes from the other devices supply, not EGORs supply. (Unless EGOR uses an output transistor with a beta of 1.) > >Can EGOR be designed with an output range of about 1 volt? This would > >allow EGOR to directly drive an ECM's existing O2 input(s). (It's a > >trivial matter to edit a PROM to handle a different O2 input voltage > >profile.) > > NO, this ISN'T gonna be possible, and for an even better reason than > just "levels" issues. If you read the previous posts, the output of > these Ion Pump interfaces is in NO way similar to a stock O2 sensor. So I guess I'd need to put a 5:1 resistor divider on EGORs output, run that to the standard O2 input, and change the 4 or 5 PROM bytes needed to deal with the different voltage profile. > I can't take > the space AGAIN to outline this; suggest you climb back up the thread a > day or two's worth [...] Well, you haven't described EGOR's internals or the exact sensor operation yet. (That's OK - I'd rather you post confirmed results than educated speculation.) > Bzzzzzzzt. I can't cite you chapterNverse of the year/model of the VX > Civic, but I've BOUGHT sensors for our year/model range IN CALIF, and > they ARE 5-wire and suitable. What exactly are you after here? I've > ALREADY posted the Honda part number. You wanna argue with THAT, or > what? I don't get yer drift, mate. I was just repeating what the repair manual said. I'm sure you can buy parts for all sorts of non-California cars in California. (The reverse isn't always true - just try to find a California spec cat in the middle of Wyoming. I got to drive to Montana with an open exhaust.) The point is that I'm not likely to find one of these Civic's in a junk yard. They are at least 5 years too new - unless they got run over by an 18 wheeler. And even then, it would have to be an out of state Victim er. Civic. Have you made any progress with figuring out the calibration resistor? Anyone changing an O2 sensor in the pits during a race would like not having to recalibrate EGOR. Same with anyone with an ailing BelchFire V11 driving through Podunksville. You've implied that the NTK box does nothing with the O2 heater. The Honda schematics imply that they do control the heater - perhaps to regulate the temperature. Any thoughts on this? If there is ever a group purchase of sensors, it should include a group purchase of the mating wiring harness connector. unsigned long BinToBCD(unsigned long i) {unsigned long t; Ludis Langens return i ? (t = BinToBCD(i >> 1), (t << 1) + (i & 1) + ludis@cruzers.com (t + 858993459 >> 2 & 572662306) * 3) : 0;} From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 18:48:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18507 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:48:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18503 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:48:18 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA20798 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:48:18 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: ION Project Papers & Info Sources Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 15:49:07 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <3555dc3c.237390@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id SAA18504 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 9 May 1998 23:09:18 +0300, "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> wrote: >Can I find it anywhere? Do you know how to pull down archives from a majordomo-managed list? If not, you might wanna visit FAQ's for the list or majordomo. >What is the >advantage if they don't use it to modulate the following ignition signal in >a closed loop They do; what would you call changing advance, boost, and mixture, if not "closed loop". You really need to access the archives. We can't be going over these basics repeatedly. I'm outta here. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 20:37:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19366 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:37:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19360 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:37:23 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA23255 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 17:37:21 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Questions about EGOR Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 17:38:10 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <355ae880.3377296@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <3554E9A8.214F@cruzers.com> In-Reply-To: <3554E9A8.214F@cruzers.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id UAA19362 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 09 May 1998 15:42:23 -0800, Ludis Langens wrote: >I'd probably be using EGOR inside of an OEM ECM which already has a >power supply with an alphabet soup of features. Plus it turns itself on >and off as needed. This supply is also used as the upper end reference >for the AtoD. OK, fine on the "features", that sounds good, but do you know what it's headroom on it's regulated 5.0V current budget IS? I thot not. Nobody does, so thas why I was pushing for running it off BAT+ if possible. See, I'm a flyboy, so I don't take such liberties with the assumptions. If "win, place, or show", is important to you, you won't either. Don't add to your ECM's power budget unless you know WHAT it's power budget IS. That was my point. >50mA? No problem. BTW, most of GM's sensors run off of 5V. (CTS, MAT, >and some switches from the same supply as the CPU. MAP and TPS from a >second 5V.) Of course I'm aware of this. I'm also aware that ALL such sensors are included in the power budget of a box stock ECM, so you can't just slap something more onto that without the info I was tryna provide you with, as far as load is concerned. Problem is, with any box stock ECM, just exactly HOW close to their power budget limit are they? If you know this, you're smarter than me; thas why I was sayin, if in doubt, use BAT+ and the regulator, cuz it cost's you next to nuthin. >> >Is EGOR's 0 to 5V signal output range a "natural" range? >> >> "Natural"? that's a new one on me. > >What I meant is this: Is there some physical phenomena requiring the 5V >range? For example, an old fashioned O2 sensor has a ~1V range 'cause >that's the way it works. Whereas 74xx TTL runs on 5V because some >standards commitee decided so. In other words, are you applying a 5V >range to the sensor? Or is it from an intermediate node which swings >rail to rail? Ahh, this is bloody splitting hairs; WHAT sensor that you know of has a defined "natural" voltage range?, other than electrochemical stuff like the stock O2 sensors. EGOR has been designed to yield a 0-5V sensor range, cuz that's what most ECU's use as their supply range. And since it's NOW a "measurement" sensor, rather than a mere switch, we're tryna get the maximum dynamic range we can outta the supply rails. Since the fundamental thing about EGOR (or for that matter any Ion pump O2 sensor) is pumping Oxy ions to balance the normal O2 sensor, and as we HAVE discussed previously, this is based on CURRENT levels, not voltage, one has to pick a reference range for translating this current to voltage levels suitable for use. Very rare to see ANY device or sensor related in terms of it's output CURRENT! >> Course, you gonna pay for that with increased supply >> load, but it's still only another 10% of budget, so no sweat. > >The increased supply load comes from the other devices supply, not EGORs >supply. (Unless EGOR uses an output transistor with a beta of 1.) WHAT?, not so dude, if EGOR is supposed to supply a certain voltage output representing AFR, into a 1K load, it's EGOR's supply and output device that has to supply the current to make that happen. Back to basics. >So I guess I'd need to put a 5:1 resistor divider on EGORs output, run >that to the standard O2 input, and change the 4 or 5 PROM bytes needed >to deal with the different voltage profile. Again, WHAT?; you really gotta listen up; the output curve for EGOR doesn't represent ANYTHING similar to an normal O2 sensor, and if you wanted to map it into a similar kinda output, you'd certainly be spending more than 4 or 5 bytes on storage, unless you were building a bang-bang controller, in which case WHY on earth would you use EGOR? You need to do your homework, dude. >Well, you haven't described EGOR's internals or the exact sensor >operation yet. (That's OK - I'd rather you post confirmed results than >educated speculation.) Well, in the absense of complete schematics, a few ear lobes might be appropriately applied, instead of your spurious questions. What exactly DO you allege you need beyond what I've told you, and what we've discussed in this thread so far? >I was just repeating what the repair manual said. I'm sure you can buy >parts for all sorts of non-California cars in California. (The reverse >isn't always true - just try to find a California spec cat in the middle >of Wyoming. I got to drive to Montana with an open exhaust.) The point >is that I'm not likely to find one of these Civic's in a junk yard. >They are at least 5 years too new - unless they got run over by an 18 >wheeler. And even then, it would have to be an out of state Victim er. >Civic. WHAT repair manual? Did you even BOTHER to check on availability of the HONDA OEM part no. I have posted now THREE bloody times to the group? I don't give a rat's ass if you CAN find one in a junk yard. That's YOUR problem, not EGOR's. Sheesh, I give you the stinking HONDA part no. and you're still whining? GEEZ, give me a brake. You wanna use this stuff, or just CARP about it not all being automagic to yer doorstep, and outta a junk yard to boot? >Have you made any progress with figuring out the calibration resistor? >Anyone changing an O2 sensor in the pits during a race would like not >having to recalibrate EGOR. Well, Lulu, I'd suggest you just PASS on EGOR then, cuz you ARE gonna have to recal to free-air to use a new sensor. Like I said, "Thanks for playing. BZZZTTT!" Ain't that the PITTS!? B) >You've implied that the NTK box does nothing with the O2 heater. The >Honda schematics imply that they do control the heater - perhaps to >regulate the temperature. I've not IMPLIED it, I've stated it outright. The SAE docs and the NTK box documents suggest that there is little to be gained by even regulating the heater voltage, let alone control it closed loop. Care to share YOUR weath of information with the rest of the group? WHAT schematics? Control of the heater? First I've heard of that. Why is that, Lulu, if you have info to the contrary? POST IT! Don't just wave it in the air. We'd all love to see it, I'm sure. >If there is ever a group purchase of sensors, it should include a group >purchase of the mating wiring harness connector. Geezus, what a plebe. A group purchase will try to achieve the lowest price point on the SENSOR, period, regardless of what connector just "happens" to be the love of HONDA's life at this particular model year. IF you're gonna predicate your use of this sensor on the availability of a "mating wiring harness connector", again I'd say, why dontcha just PASS. When was the last time you found a "mating" OEM harness available for anywhere less than 10X the cost of the device. I think you, guy, have your head firmly impacted up a nice, warm dark place, and I am NOT gonna waste any more of my time on ya. Just my personal opinion, mindya. Sayonara, Lulu baby. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sat May 9 23:18:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00448 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:18:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00474 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:14:35 -0400 Received: from AJLegere@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8HGUa17470 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:38:54 +2000 (EDT) From: AJLegere Message-ID: <4e71df03.3555133f@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 22:38:54 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GME Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Terry, Saw yr message for Beta version and it looks great!!!!! Have you a .bin for a '87 350 T/A TPI. I'm in the process of installing one on a 400SBC and want to modify the ECM. Thanks in advance, AJL From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 00:22:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA00994 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:22:39 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00990 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:22:36 -0400 Received: from earthlink.net (pool041-max5.ds18-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.11.141]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29166 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 21:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35552AED.B9C87EC9@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 21:19:57 -0700 From: Heinrich Gerhardt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Joachim M. Wagner wrote: > Hi, Danny! > > There are already some direct petrol engines on the market!!!! > > Mitsubishi was the first one! The have the GDI-Engine ready, it's sold even > here in Germany at least for 6 - 7 months now! > What about the Mercedes 300SL in ca. 1955? It had GDI, as well as desmodromic valve actuation (no valve springs-- the valves are pushed open and pulled closed). Mr. Goatwrench From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 01:10:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA01504 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:10:03 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (vcc11.vcc.bc.ca [207.102.127.11]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA01500 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:09:59 -0400 Received: (from jimd@localhost) by vcc11.vcc.bc.ca (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id WAA70708; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 22:09:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors In-Reply-To: <35552AED.B9C87EC9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 9 May 1998, Heinrich Gerhardt wrote: > > > > There are already some direct petrol engines on the market!!!! > > > > Mitsubishi was the first one! The have the GDI-Engine ready, it's sold even > > here in Germany at least for 6 - 7 months now! > > > > What about the Mercedes 300SL in ca. 1955? It had GDI, as well as desmodromic > valve actuation (no valve springs-- the valves are pushed open and pulled > closed). > Mr. Goatwrench > That system was a derivative of the FI system used on the DB 600 series V12s as found in ME 109s etc etc From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 04:09:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA02530 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:09:57 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA02526 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:09:53 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-16.brokersys.com [209.113.60.17]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27271 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 03:12:01 -0500 Message-ID: <3555610D.BFF50750@brokersys.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 03:10:53 -0500 From: Walter Petermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: O2 sensor duplicator References: <01bd7ab8$5ee85ee0$5b198fd1@nacelp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Plecan wrote: > > From: Walter > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Re: O2 sensor duplicator > > >> Some one (and I lost my note, so sorry list), was working on > >> a 3 op-amp signal generator for the O2 input for benching > >> running ecms. Please contact me!. > >> Cheers > >> Bruce > > What would this circuit have to do, just generate a 0-1 > >volt signal or > >also react to the change in injector pulse duration and > >change the o2 reading accordingly ? > > Walter > > > Also react to injector pulse lenght. > Bruce Bruce, I have been trying to come up with a circuit. I will be needing one too sooner or later. I also test/repair ecms for Jaguars, and I'm starting to get into the newer ones (90's) which will need a little more sophisticated method of testing the o2 circuit. Up to now, I just measure the %change from open loop when the o2 is either 0 or 1 volt. The newer ecms I'm sure will go into 'limp home' mode if I try to use this same method. Anyway, what is the range of injector on times for your application? What is the highest rate of firing (pulses per second to one injector) that you use in your tests? Walter From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 06:33:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA03346 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:33:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.online.de (root@mail.online.de [193.158.2.93]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA03342 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:33:20 -0400 Received: from ascentia-900n(really [193.159.68.92]) by mail.online.de via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:33:50 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #2 built DST-Jun-10) Message-Id: From: "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> To: Subject: Re: ION Project P. & NEW WAY OF COMBUSTION! Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:37:34 +0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Gar, thanks for your answer, but you didn't get the point of my quwstion and I'm sure it's not in the old topics because what I asked here is a complete new point: TO FORM AND MODULATE THE WAVEFORMS AND -FUNCTIONS OF THE IGNITION SIGNAL ITSELF WITH THE INFORMATIONS OUT OF THE COMBUSTION PROCESS has nothing to do with already existing (of course I know that) loop of influencing the regulating parameters of combustion. But this is not influencing the combustion itself which is of course chaotic. But using my suggested way of modulating the ignition signal itself transforms the chaotic signal and this is the real input to start the whole combustion into a ordered, structurised ignition energy and then caos in combustion can be greatly reduced! It will be much easier to generate fuel and spark advance eeproms for this kind of quality combustions because all the parametrs will be much more linear and therefore easier to find than before. Joachim ---------- > Von: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com > An: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Betreff: Re: ION Project Papers & Info Sources > Datum: Sonntag, 10. Mai 1998 01:49 > > On Sat, 9 May 1998 23:09:18 +0300, "Joachim M. Wagner" > <1028-156@online.de> wrote: > > >Can I find it anywhere? > > Do you know how to pull down archives from a majordomo-managed list? If > not, you might wanna visit FAQ's for the list or majordomo. > > >What is the > >advantage if they don't use it to modulate the following ignition signal in > >a closed loop > > They do; what would you call changing advance, boost, and mixture, if > not "closed loop". You really need to access the archives. We can't be > going over these basics repeatedly. I'm outta here. > > Gar > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 06:35:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA03355 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:35:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA03351 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:35:05 -0400 Received: from pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab2.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.102]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA26592 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:35:03 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:35:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805101035.UAA26592@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This stuff sounds very interesting. Tell me more... Will it work with the GM high energy ignition systems of the early eighties? My car is a 2.8L 6cyl GM Holden Commodore. I believe it looks rather like one of the Opels. How easy/hard it it to fit one of these systems? Danny Barrett. >And the other thing is: lean mixtures can be burnt very good, but not with >an "unformatted" or unspecified energy which is used for ignition. The >ignition energy must have the correct phase/magnitude-ratio to burn really >the fuel! And then also the NOx - problem can be reduced greatly. There is >a impulse oscillator ignition >system on the market here in Germany which can do both of it perfectly. > >If you need such a system, give me the type of car and I can probably >arrange for you. ( I think price was around 149.- $US) and can use it when >your ignition cable from the coil to the distributor is exchangeable. > >Joachim From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 07:01:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03715 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:01:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com (mail.clarityconnect.com [206.64.143.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03711 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:01:22 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (207.198.30.39) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Sun, 10 May 1998 07:03:15 -0400 Message-ID: <3555105D.6621@clarityconnect.com> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:26:37 -0700 From: Scot Sealander X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. References: <01bd7a91$20423b60$4c198fd1@nacelp> <3554C4BD.66DF@tpgi.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Justin Albury wrote: > > Anybody have a bin off of something like that??. > try this...ambx > this was the the production version.....when played with ....welll :-) Justin must have a defective PROM reader. This file is also corrupt. Either that or every single location has an odd value..... ;-) Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 08:10:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04258 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 08:10:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.online.de (root@mail.online.de [193.158.2.93]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04254 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 08:10:03 -0400 Received: from ascentia-900n(really [193.159.68.118]) by mail.online.de via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:10:34 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #2 built DST-Jun-10) Message-Id: From: "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> To: Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:14:46 +0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Danny It will surely work well as long as your engine has a separate, exchangeable cable between coil and distributor! With your car this should be the case. If you can specify the type of connectors used for this cable on each side, I'll look if I can get a suitable one for you. All the energy transformation system is included around this cable. And it works independently from primary creation system for energy such as coil or voltage. It influences and works completely on the high-voltage secondary side of the ignition energy, because that's what makes the engine really run! Joachim ---------- > Von: Danny Barrett > An: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Betreff: Re: Spark plugs/injectors > Datum: Sonntag, 10. Mai 1998 13:35 > > This stuff sounds very interesting. Tell me more... Will it work with the GM > high energy ignition systems of the early eighties? My car is a 2.8L 6cyl GM > Holden Commodore. I believe it looks rather like one of the Opels. How > easy/hard it it to fit one of these systems? > > Danny Barrett. > > > >And the other thing is: lean mixtures can be burnt very good, but not with > >an "unformatted" or unspecified energy which is used for ignition. The > >ignition energy must have the correct phase/magnitude-ratio to burn really > >the fuel! And then also the NOx - problem can be reduced greatly. There is > >a impulse oscillator ignition > >system on the market here in Germany which can do both of it perfectly. > > > >If you need such a system, give me the type of car and I can probably > >arrange for you. ( I think price was around 149.- $US) and can use it when > >your ignition cable from the coil to the distributor is exchangeable. > > > >Joachim > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 08:54:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04578 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 08:54:30 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04574 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 08:54:26 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-8.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.26]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id IAA24213 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 08:53:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: O2 sensor duplicator Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 08:55:02 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7c12$d8b8fee0$1a198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Walter Petermann To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 4:52 AM Subject: Re: O2 sensor duplicator >Bruce Plecan wrote: >> >> From: Walter >> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >> Subject: Re: O2 sensor duplicator >> >> >also react to the change in injector pulse duration and >> >change the o2 reading accordingly ? >> > Walter >> Also react to injector pulse lenght. >> Bruce > >Bruce, > I have been trying to come up with a circuit. I will be >needing one too sooner or later. I also test/repair ecms for >Jaguars, and I'm starting to get into the newer ones (90's) >which will need a little more sophisticated method of >testing the o2 circuit. Up to now, I just measure the >%change from open loop when the o2 is either 0 or 1 volt. >The newer ecms I'm sure will go into 'limp home' mode if I >try to use this same method. >Anyway, what is the range of injector on times for your >application? >What is the highest rate of firing (pulses per second to one >injector) that you use in your tests? > > Walter > Well I've been told on the TBI it should be 1-5 msec., and on the TPI 2-10 msec. One the TBI rate of fire would be 240/ sec, and TPI 120/sec. But, I'm still gathering parts to actually be able to fire one up. If ya haveta have a more exact answer I quess I could mock something up. I was just "planning" on doing one real nice set-up. If anyone has more accurate numbers, PLEASE say something. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 08:58:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04624 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 08:58:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04620 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 08:57:57 -0400 Received: from bernie (bernie@defiant.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.109]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09504 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:59:14 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980510225742.0079e2e0@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:57:42 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. In-Reply-To: <01bd7916$41f72800$4e198fd1@nacelp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 01:41 6/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >For the unlucky blokes that can't get em (usa), have a look at >http://www.thrasher-ep.com >they are a neat car. Are these the ones the 808 ecm is used >in the SS, and SHV (?). Is that engine the same inside as >our (USA) small block chevy?. > >Public Service Announcement: > >Cone Shaped Hat HQ is also one step closer to being able >to dim the neighborhood lights by bench racing ecms. >No worries here!! >Bruce SHV should read HSV... Holden Special Vehicles.... and try http://www.hsv.com.au I think you'll be impressed if you liked what you already saw :) From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 09:01:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04683 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:01:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04677 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:01:31 -0400 Received: from bernie (bernie@defiant.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.109]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09523 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:02:54 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980510230122.0079f4e0@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:01:22 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: Water injection and racing & more In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980507003719.007a2b00@mail.qonline.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >defintely not a good idea >it the driver brakes for say 30 sec for some reason ( sudden obstuction,i > traffici pile up etc.) and you geta 30s squirt after there would probably >be water running all over the tires, affecting traction > >better might be to use an IR sensor to measure berrake temp. placed just >before the squirt zone, spray until the sensor say the temp is OK again >no timer involved >just a simple driver to fire the pump up > >> would any one be able to design a circuit like this, or have one that might >> do the job? > >Clive >? this sounds great..... someone come up with a circuit for this and I'll be forever in their debt :) From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 09:05:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04782 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:05:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04777 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:05:30 -0400 Received: from bernie (bernie@defiant.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.109]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09546 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:06:50 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980510230504.007a8c00@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:05:04 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: RE: Water injection and racing & more In-Reply-To: <311B7EA14AAAD111B6AC0000C0E4A3CF0218BF@TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU. EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 02:51 6/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >[...details of watering brake drums deleted...] > >Well, I don't know what kind of racing you are doing, but most racing >organizations would black flag you, and rightfully so, for spraying >water where it can fall on the track. If this is dirt then just forget >I mentioned anything, but spraying fluids on pavement creates a VERY >dangerous situation for the competitors behind you. > >What this has to do with DIY-EFI I don't know, but I road race >motorcycles and ideas like this scare the crap out of me. thanks.. the idea was picked up from truck racing... where you will find almost all run a similar system. and the spray is that fine, that it evaporates as soon as it hits the drum... and the car has passed scruteneering with this system in place for numerous events From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 09:09:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04874 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:09:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04867 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:09:01 -0400 Received: from bernie (bernie@defiant.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.109]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09568 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:10:22 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980510230850.007a0650@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:08:50 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. In-Reply-To: <199805061936.FAA16589@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:36 7/05/98 +1000, you wrote: >>From what I'm told, the Holden V8 is a completely Australian designed engine >(but I could have been told a heap of crap...). As for the V6, I believe it >is a Buick. However, with the "Ecotec" V6, it is basically loosely designed >on the previous Buick re-hash, and not, in reality the same engine, although >the cubic displacement is still nominally 3.8L. actually the Holden 308 V8 has some very close similarities to the small block chev... the 350 Chev crankshaft is used in the 308 to stroke it to around 383 ci. do you think a Chev crank would bolt into an aussie designed engine ? hmmm From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 09:10:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04919 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:10:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04912 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:10:47 -0400 Received: from bernie (bernie@defiant.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.109]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09584 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:12:13 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980510231032.007aa490@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:10:32 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. In-Reply-To: <199805062156.RAA41910@f04n01.cac.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 05:56 6/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >Where the h*ll can I get that K*ck *ss TPI intake in the Holdens? I am serious! > >Paul Tholey I know of several.... do you mean the v6 or v8 ???? I have a friend who has a VP commodore rally car.... with heaps of spares let me know what you want From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 09:25:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05189 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:25:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05179 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:25:14 -0400 Received: from bernie (bernie@defiant.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.109]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09645 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:26:36 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980510232504.007a3100@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:25:04 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: RE: Water injection and racing & more In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 09:23 7/05/98 +0100, you wrote: >This was a common device used by some of the thundersaloon teams to cool >off disks , the ammount of water used is minimal, and it won't go on the >track as the heat on the disks vaporises any residue fluid... > >As for DIY EFI, I don't think that it has much to do with it, though >neither has Aero engines, catalytic cracking, ceramic coatings et al, I >for one am happy that we have an eclectic mix of 'performance' and >technical subjects on this list. > >Rob Humphris Rob, How are you involved with these 'thundersaloons' ? do you know what sort of device they are using to trigger the water to squirt onto the discs ? or was it manual, under the driver's control ? and thanks, from the amount of stuff I read on this list, how much is really about DIY EFI ? but about that subject... I know I am going backwards, but I am trying to design/build an analog injection system... and I need help with one part of the circuit... I need a voltage controlled Pulse width modulator.... I need something that will accept an input voltage between 0 and 5 V... and a clock pulse and depending on the input voltage, output a pulse who's width varies linearly... have i explained this right so say there's a clock pulse, and the input voltage is 0V, I want a puls of 2ms to be the output.... if there;s a clock pulse, and the input voltage is 5V, I want a pulse of 6ms to be output.... 5V * * 4V * * 3V * * 2V * * 1V * * 0V * 2ms 3ms 4ms 5ms 6ms bit like that..... can anyone help me? I do not want to use any microprocessors in the design.... thanks From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 09:29:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05277 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:29:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05273 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:29:33 -0400 Received: from bernie (bernie@defiant.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.109]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09663 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:30:58 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980510232926.007acd80@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:29:26 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: Holdens a little info In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980508110641.00a76c60@qtc-mail> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > a nissan 3L also (some one else will know more) The nissan is an RB-30 in both normally aspirated, and turbo configurations..... From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 09:35:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05315 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:35:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05311 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:35:11 -0400 Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8QWGa25489 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:34:31 -0400 (EDT) From: ECMnut Message-ID: <10e78180.3555ace8@aol.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:34:31 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 98-05-10 09:19:36 EDT, you write: << actually the Holden 308 V8 has some very close similarities to the small block chev... the 350 Chev crankshaft is used in the 308 to stroke it to around 383 ci. >> The 308 sound like an interest engine. I believe we Yanks has the same crankshaft in our 302, but I don't know if the main bearing journal diameters were the same. Sounds like the block is the same as our 400. Is there an Australian 6 cylinder derivitave of the 308???? What I'm after here, is the 4.125 inch bore GM V6 Our "V6 little brother" to the 350 has a 4 inch bore, resulting in slightly less displacement..... I would love to find one of those blocks, if it exists... TIA Mike V Mike V. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 09:37:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05341 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:37:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05337 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:37:01 -0400 Received: from bernie (bernie@defiant.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.109]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09692 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:38:23 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980510233651.007ace90@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:36:51 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. In-Reply-To: <01bd7a91$20423b60$4c198fd1@nacelp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 10:53 8/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 10:39 AM >Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. >>> >>> >the group-A it is a twin t-bodie setup with a huge plemin chamber with >>> >stright runners that if you shine a light down the runner you can see >>> >the valve and up the top end are some s/steel trumpets which with little >>> >mods can be made adjustable........these little babys are good for 400kw >>> >now that is 500hp+ std t-bodies are 1000cfm and they ran bosch green >>> >injectors with a delco p4 808 ecm :-) >>> >> >Anybody have a bin off of something like that??. The VP commodore rally car I mentioned is going to have the memcal 'tweaked' after the engine build that is under way... I will ask the efi guy if I can have a copy yeh? do i need to tell him what format etc? I could probably get a stock one to, because the 'efi guy' i mention does a bit of their development From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 09:52:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05568 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:52:03 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05564 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:52:00 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-8.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.26]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id JAA08280 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:51:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Misc 101 stuff Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:52:35 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7c1a$e2b5c880$1a198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Is there anyone working on the (747) 101 project that needs something?. Other than some items for bench running ecms. I'd also like to know of those working on the 747, who are going to be continuing on with the 165/730/808 series, and I would like to know who that isn't working on the 747 will be joining the fray for the next group, of ecms. If your new to this please tell me what your strong points are, software, burning/trying proms, junkyard hunting what ever, if ya want to help we probably can use ya. Please e-mail me nacelp@bright.net Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 09:52:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05599 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:52:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05595 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:52:32 -0400 Received: from bernie (bernie@defiant.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.109]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09783 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:53:59 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980510235224.007c3c10@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:52:24 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: small PC used as a Car mp3 player In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 03:50 9/05/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-05-09 13:03:31 EDT, jlindeke@bsfh.org writes: > ><< A few weeks back someone posted about a web page where a guy made a din > sized PC for his miata to play mp3's in his car. could someone send me that > address? thanks >> > >I think this should be the one you're refering to: >http://utter.chaos.org.uk/~altman/mp3mobile/ >BTW, any idea on how difficult it would be to replicate something like this? >I'd like to have an auto-mp3 player too! :) > >Van do you mean difficult, or expensive ??? not very, and VERY :) From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 10:37:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06376 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:37:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06372 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:37:09 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-8.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.26]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id KAA20107 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:36:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:37:43 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7c21$30fe9e80$1a198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Harding To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 9:41 AM Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. >At 05:56 6/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >>Where the h*ll can I get that K*ck *ss TPI intake in the Holdens? I am >serious! >> >>Paul Tholey > > >I know of several.... do you mean the v6 or v8 ???? > >I have a friend who has a VP commodore rally car.... with heaps of spares > >let me know what you want > > I'd also be interested in a V-8 version. I got a set bolt pattern measurements, to make sure if it will work, ya have anyidea of price (US)?. We might continue this e-mail if ya want. Bruce nacelp@bright.net From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 10:41:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06439 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:41:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06434 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:41:42 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-8.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.26]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id KAA21125 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:40:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:42:17 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7c21$d495e440$1a198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Harding To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 10:08 AM Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. >>Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. >>>> >>>> >now that is 500hp+ std t-bodies are 1000cfm and they ran bosch green >>>> >injectors with a delco p4 808 ecm :-) >>>> >>> >>Anybody have a bin off of something like that??. > >The VP commodore rally car I mentioned is going to have the memcal 'tweaked' after the engine build that is under way... > >I will ask the efi guy if I can have a copy yeh? > >do i need to tell him what format etc? > >I could probably get a stock one to, because the 'efi guy' i mention does a bit of their development A .bin file would be perfect in my book (for viewing in hex editor). Any and all bins welcomed. Please Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 10:53:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06620 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:53:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from dialup0.bushnell.net (root@dialup0.bushnell.net [207.177.24.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06616 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:53:14 -0400 Received: from Avonil.net.AvonIL.net (port1.dialup0.avonil.net [207.177.24.196]) by dialup0.bushnell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA15394 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:53:13 -0500 Message-ID: <003a01bd7c23$6ef82e20$c418b1cf@Avonil.net.AvonIL.net> From: "Dave Balfour" To: Subject: Grand National engine question Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:53:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I think that I can get a buick grand national engine <3.8 turbo> for great price. The only problem is that the computer and wiring harness have been trashed. The original car now has 350 chevy with a holley 4 bbl. Does anyone have a suitable computer and harness available? Any sugestions? dave balfour From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 11:46:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07336 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:46:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07330 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:46:13 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-8.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.26]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id LAA09161 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:45:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Grand National engine question Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:46:47 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7c2a$d6ebf320$1a198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: Dave Balfour To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 11:36 AM Subject: Grand National engine question >I think that I can get a buick grand national engine <3.8 turbo> for >great price. The only problem is that the computer and wiring harness >have been trashed. The original car now has 350 chevy with a holley 4 >bbl. Does anyone have a suitable computer and harness available? Any >sugestions? >dave balfour > If your talking about a 86-87 GN, The ecm issa 1227148, and shouldn't be too hard to find in a yard. Casper's Electronic's in IL makes harness's for GN, and custom lenghts. If ya search under GN-Ttype you'll probably find their home page, and they have something called Turbo Trader, or something like that and used parts for sale. If 85-86 then they have a page with tech stuff to go to 87 ecm. HTH Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 11:52:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07419 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:52:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07411 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:52:53 -0400 Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id LAA14631; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:52:46 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from cris.com (ts005d04.aus-tx.concentric.net [206.173.144.112]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id LAA01344; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3555DB65.917A4A97@cris.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:52:53 -0500 From: "John A. Hess" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Holdens a little info References: <3.0.1.32.19980508110641.00a76c60@qtc-mail> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The Repco Brabham (F1) engine was a modification of the BOP (Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac) alumunum V-8 that has since been sold to Rover (Now and for the past two decades in the 3500 GT et al). It was a 3.0 L double overhead design. There has not been a 5L GP engine since before World War II! Wayne Blair wrote: > A little info about some engines used in Holdens: > > V8 used in production > CHEV: 307 327 350 > > Aussie V8's > (have always been faster and stronger than chevs and fords of same design > and capacity - production volume has been only impediment to aftermarket > and further development. [Repco Brabham was a 5L GP engine was an offshoot > of the Aussie v8 - maybe?]. That should but the possum in the kitchen ;^) ) > > 253 small bore 308 > 308 4 inch bore > 304 destroked to 4999cc under 5L for racing homolagation and complete head > redesign to make use of EFI > > The baby 55 57 chev looking cars used 6cyl from GM Canada > Grey motors/Side plates, used siamesesd intake port. (Like old blue flames > chevs ? ) > > 132 ci > 138 ci > > Also a lot of Red, Blue, Black aussie 6's like baby > 292(?) inline (red ?) Chev 6's > 138, (toranas only) > 149,179 > 161,186, > 173,202 > a nissan 3L also (some one else will know more) > > V6 > Buicks (some one else will know which and what) > > Hey Justin - wanna add any info so the overseas guys get the full picture > on downunder GMs? > > wayne From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 13:14:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08442 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:14:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08438 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:14:38 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-43.brokersys.com [209.113.60.44]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00597 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:16:52 -0500 Message-ID: <3555E0BF.D496318E@brokersys.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:15:44 -0500 From: Walter Petermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: O2 sensor duplicator References: <01bd7c12$d8b8fee0$1a198fd1@nacelp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Plecan wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Walter Petermann > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 4:52 AM > Subject: Re: O2 sensor duplicator > > >Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > Well I've been told on the TBI it should be 1-5 msec., and on > the TPI 2-10 msec. One the TBI rate of fire would be 240/ > sec, and TPI 120/sec. > But, I'm still gathering parts to actually be able to fire one > up. > If ya haveta have a more exact answer I quess I could > mock something up. I was just "planning" on doing one real > nice set-up. > If anyone has more accurate numbers, PLEASE say something. > Cheers > Bruce Bruce, I was thinking in the range 2-16ms that should cover everything.I don't think an injector can open and shut within 1ms. Don't worry about not having much data, after you make you setup you can get your data from a known good ecm. Walter From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 13:17:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08489 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:17:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08485 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:17:36 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-8.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.26]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id NAA04038 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:16:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:18:10 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7c37$9b700fe0$1a198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu snip > >http://www.hsv.com.au > >I think you'll be impressed if you liked what you already saw :) > They mention Peter Brock, is that the same one who designed the Cobra Daoytona Coupe???. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 14:19:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09213 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:19:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09209 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:19:56 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-32.brokersys.com [209.113.60.33]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02036 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:22:10 -0500 Message-ID: <3555F00F.19B37FD@brokersys.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:21:03 -0500 From: Walter Petermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: small PC used as a Car mp3 player References: <3.0.5.32.19980510235224.007c3c10@mail.qonline.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Matthew Harding wrote: > > At 03:50 9/05/98 EDT, you wrote: > >In a message dated 98-05-09 13:03:31 EDT, jlindeke@bsfh.org writes: > > > ><< A few weeks back someone posted about a web page where a guy made a din > > sized PC for his miata to play mp3's in his car. could someone send me that > > address? thanks >> > > > >I think this should be the one you're refering to: > >http://utter.chaos.org.uk/~altman/mp3mobile/ > >BTW, any idea on how difficult it would be to replicate something like this? > >I'd like to have an auto-mp3 player too! :) > > > >Van > > do you mean difficult, or expensive ??? > > not very, and VERY :) Please excuse this very basic question, What is mp3? Walter From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 14:42:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09451 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:42:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09447 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:42:50 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-8.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.26]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id OAA27811 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:41:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Aussie 808 ?? Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:43:24 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7c43$831841e0$1a198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On the V-8, aussie, 808's do they use 0 for initial timing?. Distributor lead disconnected. 6?. Jus curious ya know. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 15:35:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10028 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:35:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from dialup0.bushnell.net (root@dialup0.bushnell.net [207.177.24.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10024 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:34:58 -0400 Received: from Avonil.net.AvonIL.net (port1.dialup0.avonil.net [207.177.24.196]) by dialup0.bushnell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA04604 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:34:56 -0500 Message-ID: <019a01bd7c4a$ca760c00$c418b1cf@Avonil.net.AvonIL.net> From: "Dave Balfour" To: Subject: Re: Grand National engine question Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:25:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce, It is supposed to be from an 84 I am not sure. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan Subject: Grand National engine question > > >>I think that I can get a buick grand national engine <3.8 turbo> for >>great price. The only problem is that the computer and wiring harness >>have been trashed. The original car now has 350 chevy with a holley 4 >>bbl. Does anyone have a suitable computer and harness available? Any >>sugestions? >>dave balfour >> >If your talking about a 86-87 GN, >The ecm issa 1227148, and shouldn't be too hard to find in a yard. >Casper's Electronic's in IL makes harness's for GN, and custom lenghts. > If ya search under GN-Ttype you'll probably find their home page, >and they have something called Turbo Trader, or something like >that and used parts for sale. > If 85-86 then they have a page with tech stuff to go to 87 ecm. >HTH >Bruce > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 16:22:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA10312 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:22:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10308 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:22:11 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-08.brokersys.com [209.113.60.9]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04700 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:24:24 -0500 Message-ID: <35560CB8.43E92127@brokersys.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:23:20 -0500 From: Walter Petermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Water injection and racing & more References: <3.0.5.32.19980510232504.007a3100@mail.qonline.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Matthew Harding wrote: > ....... > I need something that will accept an input voltage between 0 and 5 V... > and a clock pulse > > and depending on the input voltage, output a pulse who's width varies > linearly... > > have i explained this right > > so say there's a clock pulse, and the input voltage is 0V, I want a puls of > 2ms to be the output.... > > if there;s a clock pulse, and the input voltage is 5V, I want a pulse of > 6ms to be output.... > > 5V * > * > 4V * > * > 3V * > * > 2V * > * > 1V * > * > 0V * > > 2ms 3ms 4ms 5ms 6ms > > bit like that..... > > can anyone help me? I do not want to use any microprocessors in the > design.... > > thanks Mathew, If you are handy with electronics you could try a timer chip like Motorola MC1455/1555. This has a trigger input (for your clock) and a threshold input to which you would connect your variable voltage. The output can sink up to 200ma, enough to turn on an automotive relay (about 80 ohm coil) with a supply of 12v. Although it would be best to use an external transistor for the relay. Walter From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 16:44:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA10558 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:44:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10554 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:43:59 -0400 Received: from ECMnut@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8HKUa02463 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:43:17 -0400 (EDT) From: ECMnut Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 16:43:17 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 98-05-10 10:46:38 EDT, you write: << > >I know of several.... do you mean the v6 or v8 ???? > >I have a friend who has a VP commodore rally car.... with heaps of spares > >let me know what you want >> Can anyone tell me what displacement the V6 Holdens are? TIA MIke V From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 17:00:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10882 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:00:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from stimpy.fp.co.nz (stimpy.fp.co.nz [202.12.105.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10878 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:00:51 -0400 Received: from minor.fp.co.nz (minor [97.1.1.12]) by stimpy.fp.co.nz (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA18386 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:00:34 +1200 (NZST) Received: from psc.fp.co.nz by minor.fp.co.nz (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with ESMTP id JAA12470 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:00:32 +1200 Received: from SCRATCHY/SpoolDir by psc.fp.co.nz (Mercury 1.31); 11 May 98 09:02:07 +1100 Received: from SpoolDir by SCRATCHY (Mercury 1.31); 11 May 98 09:01:39 +1100 From: "Tony Bryant" Organization: Fisher & Paykel PSC To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:01:33 +1200 Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Priority: normal In-reply-to: <35579f36.6277828@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Hey, anybody up for a DIY FlowBench? As, it happens, I'm also building a DIY FlowBench. May I enquire: 1) What are you using for (a) blower(s)? 2) Can you publish your thyristor speed controller circuit, or at least give us some rough details? FYI: I'm currently using a hotted up garden leafblower, but I'm only getting 10" @ 100 CFM. (Its also very loud). I'm using the PWM circuit out of the back of the Motorola Thyristor book, but it's kinda pulsey in this application. And a mechanical pressure sender (a modified carb secondary vaccum modulator, hooked to a pot) as the feedback to the motor controller. I'm using an uncalibrated flap style MAF (I will calibrate on some known heads) Cheers. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 17:29:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA11431 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:29:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from buffy.tpgi.com.au (buffy.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11425 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:28:59 -0400 Received: (from smtpd@localhost) by buffy.tpgi.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA21762 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:29:25 +1000 Received: from gou-ppp-072.tpgi.com.au(203.29.140.72), claiming to be "acer-p166" via SMTP by buffy.tpgi.com.au, id smtpda21755; Mon May 11 07:29:18 1998 Message-ID: <35561D69.49AD@tpgi.com.au> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 07:34:33 +1000 From: Justin Albury X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Aussie 808 ?? References: <01bd7c43$831841e0$1a198fd1@nacelp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce Plecan wrote: > > On the V-8, aussie, 808's do they use 0 for initial timing?. > Distributor lead disconnected. 6?. > Jus curious ya know. > Cheers > Bruce in feild service mode 10 btdc thats on all ozie cars running the 808. i found when a used a wild cam i had to chang the memcal as per normal but laso take it to about 14-16 btdc whan in feild service mode justin From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 17:44:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA11720 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:44:57 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.160]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11716 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:44:55 -0400 Received: from default - 208.254.111.79 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:44:30 -0700 Message-ID: <007201bd7c5c$acd02700$4f6ffed0@default> From: "H. J. Zivnak" To: Subject: Re: Calculating Fuel Econ. from pulse times and mph Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:42:33 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The vacuum control of the fuel pressure regulator is an easy and cheap way to increase the dynamic range of the injector. At idle and cruise the manifold pressure is low, the fuel pressure is low, and less fuel is injected per unit of time. When the engine load is high the manifold pressure is high, the fuel pressure is higher and more fuel is injected per unit of time. I think the flow changes as the square root of the pressure ratio (sqrt(45/39))*30. I hope this helps, Joe -----Original Message----- From: Mike Dillon To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Calculating Fuel Econ. from pulse times and mph > >The vacuum control actually holds the pressure across the injector constant. >In this case the injector duty cycle would be pretty good indication of the >amount of fuel used. In the case where the presure with respect to atm. >did not vary with manifold vacuum, the presure across the injector would >vary and the duty cycle would be an inacurate measurment of fuel flow. >(unless you did the fuel flow MAP duty cycle table thing) I think this >is correct but I have an open mind. > >Mike D > > > > >> From diy_efi-owner@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Sat May 9 03:19 CDT 1998 >> From: Daniel Ciobota >> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) >> >> I think I may have missed a few posts, so apologies if I repeat what's >> already been said. IMHO, using the A/F ratio and air meter values is >> better than integrating injector duty cycles over time. On my mustang, >> the fuel pressure is controlled by engine vacuum (on my race car, by >> boost as well), so, unless you've got your fuel pressure curve worked >> out pretty well, your calculations may contain significant error. Also, >> I may be wrong but I believe the ford injectors are rated at 39psi, 100% >> duty cycle (what is called the static point of the injector). >> >> >> Daniel >> >> >> Clare Snyder wrote: >> >> > Roger Heflin wrote: >> > > >> > > Hello, >> > > >> > > I have been trying to calculate fuel econ. from injector pulse >> > times. >> > > I have a batch fire vehicle, I believe I know what the number of >> > times >> > > per rpm that the injectors fire. I think the injecotrs fire once >> > per >> > > rpm (is this right). I know the injector rating (lb/hr), there ford >> > >> > > svo injectors which I believe means they are rated at 39 psi, my car >> > >> > > is running at 45 psi, so the injectors are doing 45/39 * 30 lb /hr. >> > > Also the computer says the injecotr is on x.x ms. I am assuming >> > that >> > > is what the computer it telling the injectors to do. Are the ramp >> > > up and ramp down times similar enough that you can assume that that >> > > time is close enough, or are there some transient things that cause >> > > the actual open time to be less than or greater than that number? >> > > What I am really tring to do is figure out what the absolute best >> > > gas mileage my car could get, if it was only crusing, with no >> > braking >> > > or acceleration, and also determine how badly different things >> > affect >> > > the gas mileage. >> > > Roger Heflin >> > > >> > What you want to do is determine the ACTUAL fuel usage, as well as the >> > >> > ELECTRICAL time on of the injectors, then calculate the amount of flow >> > >> > per second of injector on time. Then all you have to do is have your >> > computor, or whatever you are using, add this given fuel amount every >> > second of real time. By inputting distance into the equasion, you can >> > get MPG as well as GPH consumption. The CompuCruise system did this >> > and >> > was very accurate after a good calibration run. For a simple fuel >> > totalizer, a calculator can be used. Have a circuit sum the injector >> > on >> > time, resetting every totalled second, with the reset closing the= key >> > >> > of the calculator. 0+(constant)=======. The constant is the # of >> > partial >> > gallons consumed per injector second. Every time the + key is closed, >> > it >> > gets added to the total. As for the circuit to time the "injector on" >> > time, I can't help you, but lots of EEs out there surely can come up >> > with something complicated, or mabee even simple:} >> > -- >> > _/\_ >> > --|-----([])-----|-- >> > S 0/ \0 B >> > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back >> > E-Mail service is back to normal >> > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages >> > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca >> > OR >> > Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the >> > spammers!!! >> > It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of >> > Turkeys!!! >> >> >> >> >> From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 18:16:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA12197 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:16:37 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.160]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12193 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:16:34 -0400 Received: from default - 208.254.111.201 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:16:22 -0700 Message-ID: <008d01bd7c61$207ee160$4f6ffed0@default> From: "H. J. Zivnak" To: Subject: Re: ION Project Papers & Info Sources Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:14:07 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Right you are about the lack of analog black magic! Take a look at Patent # 4,862,093. That one transistor is there to turn-off the bias voltage during engine cranking so the plug does not foul due to the charge across it. I don't see any filtering at all. Joe -----Original Message----- From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 11:48 PM Subject: Re: ION Project Papers & Info Sources >On Fri, 08 May 1998 21:57:05 -0700, garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > >>On Fri, 08 May 98 19:37:02 -0700, Andrew Ghali >>wrote: >>>http://www.mecel.se/my_html/body_Ion_Sense.htm >>> >>>It mentions that Mecel has a patent issued in 1984 on ionization current >>>measurement used in Saab's DI system. >> >>Excellent little blurb there. > >Just a couple follow-up comments and some NEWS. In looking at Mecel's >page a lil more, I see that the DI system (which DOES include ion >sensing for cylinder commutation) was intro'd in '87, which means this >stuff IS 10 years old. The other thing to note is that although the >patent was issued in '84 and deployed in '87, there is a real dearth of >articles/papers until the mid-ninties. In larger corporate circles, this >usually means there was a "ban" on publishing sensitive info until >several years and cash cows could be harvested. This is a likely >indication that Saab WAS INDEED tryna keep the stuff secret for quite a >few years. > >Now the bit of news. You will note on the Mecel page that there's been a >DI system in the 9000s since 87/88? Well, a buddy of mine, who manages a >Saab parts dept. and whom I've been plying with questions since this all >started, today came up with some notes and a warrantee unit from a '90 >Saab, and the lil board that does the Ion Detection stuff in those >earlier models is readily viewable (unlike the later models, that are >SERIOUSLY potted) if you remove the protective covers. On that lil board >that stands up like a "module" SIP, the ONLY active parts are an LM-139 >Quad Comparator (SGS-Thomson variety with cerdip and -25 to +125degC >rating, so them guys know what they're doin) and a lone transistor. A >sprinkling of the usual diodes and passive discretes, of course, but the >point IS, it ain't no special sauce or any analog black magic, cuz there >ain't even no op amps, so if there IS any filtering it's of the lowliest >kind, since there is no active filtering possible on this board. I >traced the circuit out enough to know for sure this IS the module that >does the ion detection, cuz two of them comparators directly drive the >signals that say which cylinder is firing. This is EXTREMELY >encouraging, cuz if we can understand this technology, the circuitry to >implement it obviously is pretty dirt simple AND dirt cheap. As a result >of this latest intel, I am even more confident that after digesting the >available papers and summing up all our fractional wits, we're VERY >likely to get a workable DIY implementation. ION is beginning to smile >upon us, methinks. Maybe if we're nice to her, she's tell us her >secrets. B) > >Gar > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 18:35:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA12476 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:35:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12471 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:35:03 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-30.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.48]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id SAA11498 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:34:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Grand National engine question Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:35:40 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7c63$f6333700$30198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Grand National engine question >Bruce, It is supposed to be from an 84 I am not sure. >> >> >>>I think that I can get a buick grand national engine <3.8 turbo> >for >>>great price. The only problem is that the computer and wiring >harness >>>have been trashed. The original car now has 350 chevy with a holley >4 >>>bbl. Does anyone have a suitable computer and harness available? >Any >>>sugestions? This 3.8 is EFI, right?. If so then my earlier statements stand, but use a 148 ecm, even if not intercooled, and Jay Carter over at the Gn-Ttype list will be able to do a good chip for that. Also a program called Tweaker over ther for the 148 does a couple things, not a full editor, again for the 148. The 148 has been pretty well been x-rayed. Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 19:56:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13499 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:56:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13495 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:56:08 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA18505 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:56:07 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 16:56:56 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> In-Reply-To: <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id TAA13496 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 11 May 1998 09:01:33 +1200, "Tony Bryant" wrote: >As, it happens, I'm also building a DIY FlowBench. May I enquire: > >1) What are you using for (a) blower(s)? Not sure this is gonna be much help to ya in Kiwilandia, but both SuperFlow and QuadrantSci use multiples of what is refered to in the trade as ' 5.7" vacuum motor/blowers', made by a number of suppliers, especially Ametek, w/air-sealed bearings & double-insolated. They make a line of two-stage blower/turbines that for example, are rated at 102cfm/90"H20, 120VAC@9.2A [Ametek (used to be Amtek-Lamb) part # 116025-13], which sell from a big US electrical supply house like Grainger for about $70US ea. I have looked inside SuperFlow boxes and talked to the designer of the QuadrantSci stuff, and in both cases what they do is of course use multiple blowers in an array, and stacked in pairs in series electrically, which you CAN do with AC/DC motors, so you now have a pair of said blowers drawing 9.2A/pair across 240VAC. Put say 4 pairs of these puppies together and you're up to a goodly 36A @ 240VAC. Not maxing out your shop feed, by any means, but still alot of power at 5KVA. And yes, you'd better believe it's gonna be noisy! Not to mention the "local warming phenomenon", heh. >2) Can you publish your thyristor speed controller circuit, or at >least give us some rough details? Sure, got it directly outta http://www.teccor.com/thyristor/an1003.pdf Look for the "double-time-constant" circuit examples. To get me up to 12A @ 240VAC (25% safety margin above the 9A I expected), I used a Teccor Q6025J6 Triac and an HT-32 (SGS-Thomson also make the exact same part they call a DB3) Diac. Both of these devices are available cheap from DigiKey: ftp://ftp.digikey.com/Catalog/V3/PAGES/201-250/211.pdf This is only good for driving a single PAIR of these blowers, so you need to invent/rig either a tandem mechanical or electrical way of controlling the pairs of blowers. If you don't wanna build these up yerself, and plan on a manual control for the blowers, Dayton Electric makes a similar knob-controlled circuit for fan & blower control packaged with an integral heat sink. They charge around $100US for them! All for a circuit that contains about $12-15 worth of parts. (Hey, all it takes is 2 middlemen, and that's what it's gotta be marked up to). For my purposes, controlling these pairs of thyristors/blowers via computer, I'm gonna use some mosfet devices in place of the pots. Thas all. (I gotta look at this 5HP 3-phase Paxton blower Bob MacKnight recently posted on, tho; it sounds too good to be true, buy hey, greater wonders I've seen happen via "surplus" stuff, so who knows!). >I'm currently using a hotted up garden leafblower, but I'm only >getting 10" @ 100 CFM. (Its also very loud). Well, that just showTaGoYa what kinda power you have to apply to move that much air at that much vacuum/pressure. Your garden blower can't be drawing much more than 10-12A @ 120VAC (hmm, not sure what the mains are in Nz, but just using US figures for ducks). Multiply that by a factor of 6-8 to get what's needed to do 20" @ 300cfm. Or compare that to the power both SuperFlow and QuadrantSci spec for their bigger benches. It's LOTS of AMPS @ 240VAC. Go see at: http://www.superflow.com/products/products-flowbench-sf300.htm and you'll see 240VAC @ 33A or http://www.quadsci.com/products/engair/flwbnch/flwbnch.htm where you will see 240VAC @ 29A, that's because they're using motor control of the blowers, instead of 'bypass', they get some better numbers than the SuperFlow chaps, especially at lower flow rates. >I'm using the PWM circuit out of the back of the Motorola Thyristor >book, but it's kinda pulsey in this application. Hmm, never looked in there. Not familiar. >And a mechanical pressure sender (a modified carb >secondary vaccum modulator, hooked to a pot) as the feedback to the >motor controller. > >I'm using an uncalibrated flap style MAF (I will calibrate on some >known heads) Alright, yer my kinda guy. It may not be "accurate" or "calibrated" but for just comparative flow bench studies, which is the real meatNpotatoes of the issue anyways, as long as the pressure is repeatable and the flow delta is measurable, that's all that matters. With a small investment in better pressure measurement, ala the stuff that "Jack" mentioned earlier: http://mot2.indirect.com/senseon/mpxl5010.html for the sales pitch and http://mot2.indirect.com/books/dl200/pdf/mpxl5010rev2.pdf for the datasheets, for a 0-40"water range, where IF you can operate at around 20"water, the linearity and accuracy of this device will be just wunnerful for your/our porpoises. And it's "cheap", too!! (North American Price List says $13-15 each). The main thing to get outta all this, I s'pose, is that we're REALLY movin a whole lotta AIR to duplicate what a large ICE does whilst breathing. So whether you go for a 5HP single-piece blower motor, ala Bob McK's recent post ($350 surplus, so figure $3K new), or you add up a bunch of smaller blowers like the big boys do (around $500 total, new), you're still talkin about a lot of power to cover the pumping losses for that much air flow. Anywho, Tony, good to see there's at least one other wacko like meself thinkin alone these lines. I bought/borrowed/read every article/paper I could find about the older "fixed, knife-edge orifice and manometer" style FB's ala SuperFlow, but after chatting with the designer of the QuadSci stuff (whose name is "Oz", oddly enough), I was thoroughly sold on this newer approach via electric control of everythang. Maybe just the geek in me, but them knife-edge orifices ain't no easy pie to calibrate, and have to be moved in and out mechanically, and besides, I like to avoid the black magic whenever I can. Just some poop and some thots, dude. Cheers, Gar From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 20:08:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13693 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:08:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13689 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:08:24 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA18740 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:08:23 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: ION Project Papers & Info Sources Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:09:12 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <355c415e.10688921@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <008d01bd7c61$207ee160$4f6ffed0@default> In-Reply-To: <008d01bd7c61$207ee160$4f6ffed0@default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id UAA13690 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 10 May 1998 15:14:07 -0700, "H. J. Zivnak" wrote: >Right you are about the lack of analog black magic! Take a look at Patent # >4,862,093. Woooo, dude, a PATENT #! Excellente'Mundo. I gotta go have a look, and refresh my legaleeze. Heh. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 21:01:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14328 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:01:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14324 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:01:49 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Mon, 11 May 98 11:06:23 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7CCC.A841D060@PJARAMAZ >; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:05:07 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7CCC.A841D060@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Whattza Holden?. Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:05:06 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD7CCC.A841D060" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CCC.A841D060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nope! Aussie racing legend. Peter ---------- From: Bruce Plecan Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 3:18 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. snip > >http://www.hsv.com.au > >I think you'll be impressed if you liked what you already saw :) > They mention Peter Brock, is that the same one who designed the Cobra Daoytona Coupe???. Cheers Bruce ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CCC.A841D060 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgcBAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA FQAAAFJFOiBXaGF0dHphIEhvbGRlbj8uALsGAQWAAwAOAAAAzgcFAAsACwAFAAYAAQD8AAEggAMA DgAAAM4HBQALAAsABAAUAAEACQEBCYABACEAAAA5QUU5N0QyQ0JDRThEMTExQkVCQjAwNDAwNTVG MkE2RgBfBwEDkAYA1AMAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAQAA5AKB91dV4fL0BHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAAUkU6IFdoYXR0emEgSG9sZGVuPy4AAAAAAgFxAAEA AAAWAAAAAb18eNXVLH3pm+i8EdG+uwBABV8qbwAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAA ABkAAABwamFyYW1hekBpbmdlbmljby5jb20uYXUAAAAAAwAGEPDx5hQDAAcQJwEAAB4ACBABAAAA ZQAAAE5PUEVBVVNTSUVSQUNJTkdMRUdFTkRQRVRFUi0tLS0tLS0tLS1GUk9NOkJSVUNFUExFQ0FO U0VOVDpNT05EQVksTUFZMTEsMTk5ODM6MThBTVRPOkRJWUVGSUBFRkkzMzJFTkcAAAAAAgEJEAEA AABBAgAAPQIAAD0EAABMWkZ1VAjSWv8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbD AoMyA8YHEwKDujMTDX0KgAjPCdk7Ff94MjU1AoAKgQ2xC2Bu8GcxMDMUIAsKEvIMAYZjAEAHsG9w ZSEKhZkKhUF1BBAIkCByANBBC4BnIGxlZwnwZHouGzxQEgAEkBs8CvRsEGkxODAC0WktMTw0NA3w DNAgcwtZMTbXCqADYB5gYwVALSKXCofXIUsMMCIWRgNhOiOeIhZBDIIgQnJ1YxxgUP0c8GMAcCM/ JE0GYAIwJX+FJotNAiBkYXksBdARLHAgMTEskDE5ObA4IDM6H/ATcE0oHxkkTVRvKl8mi2RpeTJf DcBpQDIxGUAyLgEJ8Gcub2hpby3OcwGQHmAy0GR1Lf8pLjh1YmoiUTAfJotSZQ02cFcRwAJAemEg SDMG8A2wbj8dXR92MzavIRcUIgwBIhZzAwBwCoUKPjzWaAJAcDovL4J3PkAuaHN2LgWgGG0uYTP2 PUdJIHQhMzBuayB5CGAnbH0DIGIcYAdwIhAHkBHwZE1BMGZAkhzgaWtBsXdPOKFCAwdAFgBhZCzQ cyZhB+BD8DopPN1UaP5lLNAHgAIwM0ADoB5DJ0H4b2NrLJAEAEAxQtFAQHccYEPAB4AgAiAcYEKw b9Mx4AeQaWdH8GQKhUdSBQhQYhyAIERhb3nedAIgOPAIURsAP0rQHVb2Q0VABJBzCoUnUxs8Og9f IRcaNSIWCoUVIQBQwAAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcwQGzBunh8vQFAAAgwQGzBunh8vQEe AD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAANPs= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CCC.A841D060-- From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 21:03:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14342 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:03:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mbox.ualr.edu (mbox.ualr.edu [144.167.10.38]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14338 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:03:03 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01IWVPR1IC0G0000A1@UALR.EDU>; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:03:02 CDT Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:40:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <475608.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -> There are already some direct petrol engines on the market!!!! -> -> Mitsubishi was the first one! The have the GDI-Engine ready, it's -> sold even here in Germany at least for 6 - 7 months now! Mercedes built direct-injection automobile gasoline engines from the 1950s through the 1970s, and they weren't the first to do it. Bosch timed/metered rig, what they call sequential nowadays. Worked just fine, too. Of course, these were all mechanical rigs, not electronic. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 21:30:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14626 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:30:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14620 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:29:59 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp17.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.147]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA19768 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:30:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35565267.2EC950DC@mwt.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:20:41 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Newark keeps the pressure sensors in stock no real wait all the other must order from Mot. no stock . If you have to order from Mot you will wait wait wait wait and wait. hope this will save phone call since I did this already . Have a good week. Steve garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > On Mon, 11 May 1998 09:01:33 +1200, "Tony Bryant" > wrote: > > >As, it happens, I'm also building a DIY FlowBench. May I enquire: > > > >1) What are you using for (a) blower(s)? > > Not sure this is gonna be much help to ya in Kiwilandia, but both > SuperFlow and QuadrantSci use multiples of what is refered to in the > trade as ' 5.7" vacuum motor/blowers', made by a number of suppliers, > especially Ametek, w/air-sealed bearings & double-insolated. They make > a > line of two-stage blower/turbines that for example, are rated at > 102cfm/90"H20, 120VAC@9.2A [Ametek (used to be Amtek-Lamb) part # > 116025-13], which sell from a big US electrical supply house like > Grainger for about $70US ea. I have looked inside SuperFlow boxes and > talked to the designer of the QuadrantSci stuff, and in both cases > what > they do is of course use multiple blowers in an array, and stacked in > pairs in series electrically, which you CAN do with AC/DC motors, so > you > now have a pair of said blowers drawing 9.2A/pair across 240VAC. Put > say > 4 pairs of these puppies together and you're up to a goodly 36A @ > 240VAC. Not maxing out your shop feed, by any means, but still alot of > > power at 5KVA. And yes, you'd better believe it's gonna be noisy! Not > to > mention the "local warming phenomenon", heh. > > >2) Can you publish your thyristor speed controller circuit, or at > >least give us some rough details? > > Sure, got it directly outta > http://www.teccor.com/thyristor/an1003.pdf > Look for the "double-time-constant" circuit examples. To get me up to > 12A @ 240VAC (25% safety margin above the 9A I expected), I used a > Teccor Q6025J6 Triac and an HT-32 (SGS-Thomson also make the exact > same > part they call a DB3) Diac. Both of these devices are available cheap > from DigiKey: > ftp://ftp.digikey.com/Catalog/V3/PAGES/201-250/211.pdf > > This is only good for driving a single PAIR of these blowers, so you > need to invent/rig either a tandem mechanical or electrical way of > controlling the pairs of blowers. If you don't wanna build these up > yerself, and plan on a manual control for the blowers, Dayton Electric > > makes a similar knob-controlled circuit for fan & blower control > packaged with an integral heat sink. They charge around $100US for > them! > All for a circuit that contains about $12-15 worth of parts. (Hey, all > > it takes is 2 middlemen, and that's what it's gotta be marked up to). > > For my purposes, controlling these pairs of thyristors/blowers via > computer, I'm gonna use some mosfet devices in place of the pots. Thas > > all. (I gotta look at this 5HP 3-phase Paxton blower Bob MacKnight > recently posted on, tho; it sounds too good to be true, buy hey, > greater > wonders I've seen happen via "surplus" stuff, so who knows!). > > >I'm currently using a hotted up garden leafblower, but I'm only > >getting 10" @ 100 CFM. (Its also very loud). > > Well, that just showTaGoYa what kinda power you have to apply to move > that much air at that much vacuum/pressure. Your garden blower can't > be > drawing much more than 10-12A @ 120VAC (hmm, not sure what the mains > are > in Nz, but just using US figures for ducks). Multiply that by a factor > > of 6-8 to get what's needed to do 20" @ 300cfm. Or compare that to the > > power both SuperFlow and QuadrantSci spec for their bigger benches. > It's > LOTS of AMPS @ 240VAC. Go see at: > http://www.superflow.com/products/products-flowbench-sf300.htm > > and you'll see 240VAC @ 33A or > http://www.quadsci.com/products/engair/flwbnch/flwbnch.htm > where you will see 240VAC @ 29A, that's because they're using motor > control of the blowers, instead of 'bypass', they get some better > numbers than the SuperFlow chaps, especially at lower flow rates. > > >I'm using the PWM circuit out of the back of the Motorola Thyristor > >book, but it's kinda pulsey in this application. > > Hmm, never looked in there. Not familiar. > > >And a mechanical pressure sender (a modified carb > >secondary vaccum modulator, hooked to a pot) as the feedback to the > >motor controller. > > > >I'm using an uncalibrated flap style MAF (I will calibrate on some > >known heads) > > Alright, yer my kinda guy. It may not be "accurate" or "calibrated" > but > for just comparative flow bench studies, which is the real > meatNpotatoes > of the issue anyways, as long as the pressure is repeatable and the > flow > delta is measurable, that's all that matters. With a small investment > in > better pressure measurement, ala the stuff that > "Jack" mentioned earlier: > http://mot2.indirect.com/senseon/mpxl5010.html > for the sales pitch and > http://mot2.indirect.com/books/dl200/pdf/mpxl5010rev2.pdf > for the datasheets, for a 0-40"water range, where IF you can operate > at > around 20"water, the linearity and accuracy of this device will be > just > wunnerful for your/our porpoises. And it's "cheap", too!! (North > American Price List says $13-15 each). > > The main thing to get outta all this, I s'pose, is that we're REALLY > movin a whole lotta AIR to duplicate what a large ICE does whilst > breathing. So whether you go for a 5HP single-piece blower motor, ala > Bob McK's recent post ($350 surplus, so figure $3K new), or you add up > a > bunch of smaller blowers like the big boys do (around $500 total, > new), > you're still talkin about a lot of power to cover the pumping losses > for > that much air flow. > > Anywho, Tony, good to see there's at least one other wacko like meself > > thinkin alone these lines. I bought/borrowed/read every article/paper > I > could find about the older "fixed, knife-edge orifice and manometer" > style FB's ala SuperFlow, but after chatting with the designer of the > QuadSci stuff (whose name is "Oz", oddly enough), I was thoroughly > sold > on this newer approach via electric control of everythang. Maybe just > the geek in me, but them knife-edge orifices ain't no easy pie to > calibrate, and have to be moved in and out mechanically, and besides, > I > like to avoid the black magic whenever I can. > > Just some poop and some thots, dude. > > Cheers, > Gar From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 21:30:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14638 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:30:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from r02n05.cac.psu.edu (r02a05.cac.psu.edu [146.186.15.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14634 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:30:32 -0400 Received: from mic (access-isdn1-44.oz.psu.edu [146.186.228.46]) by r02n05.cac.psu.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA74284 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:30:28 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980511013431.00678bb0@email.psu.edu> X-Sender: pft101@email.psu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:34:31 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Eileen Tholey Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am interested in the V8 manifold. It looks similar to the Chevy LS1, but I am told it has twin throttle bodies. TIA Paul At 11:10 PM 5/10/98 +1000, you wrote: >At 05:56 6/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >>Where the h*ll can I get that K*ck *ss TPI intake in the Holdens? I am >serious! >> >>Paul Tholey > > >I know of several.... do you mean the v6 or v8 ???? > >I have a friend who has a VP commodore rally car.... with heaps of spares > >let me know what you want > > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 21:32:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14676 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:32:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from digger1.defence.gov.au (digger1.defence.gov.au [203.5.217.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14672 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:32:25 -0400 Received: from exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au (exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.94]) by digger1.defence.gov.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA27065 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:00:04 +0930 (CST) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au ([131.185.2.5]) by exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id KJY9H3JT; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:02:15 +0930 Received: from hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au (hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au [146.221.39.21]) by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA14086 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:02:13 +0930 (CST) Received: from [146.221.36.211] ([146.221.36.211]) by hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:25:55 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199805090826.SAA16266@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:32:55 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Steve Lamb Subject: Re: Holdens a little info Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >From what I'm told, the 3L Nissan motor was actually designed in Australia, >by GM Holden engineers as a joint venture of Holden/Nissan. They were, of No, the RB30 is a Nissan design, although some would argue that it has strong links to the Prince engine company which Nissan took over in the '60s. The Holden engineers merely "Australianised" the engine with changes to cam profile and ECU Maps. >course, built by Nissan, and they were discontinued be Holden mainly because >Nissan charged extortionate prices for them. Basically, they saw out their >contract of purchase to Nissan, and then went as quickly to the VN's V6 as >they could. At least, this is so I'm told. However, it would seem to be Well, sorry, but what you have been told is, again, wrong. GMH entered into what was basically a fixed price contract for the supply of the RB30 for the VL Commodore, which, at the time the contract was signed, was a good deal. Unfortunately, what they didn't (and largely couldn't) forsee was the simple fact that the Aussie $ dropped in value BIG TIME against the Yen in the mid 80's, so the cost per engine sky-rocketed. Of course, to stay competitive with Ford, Holden couldn't simply raise the overall price of the Commodore to recoup the engine costs - and the rest is history. GMH was an innocent player in this, but you can hardly blame Nissan or the Japanese either (unless, of course, you subscribe to the the theory that the Japanese used their commercial "crystal ball" and effectively "engineered" a decline in the value of the OZ $ to gain an advantage). >true, as lmy Father was looking at puting one of the Nissan engines into his >HX Kingswood at one time, and at the Holden spare parts place, they told him >$9000 for a short motor from the VL Commodore, and then they said that he >would be better to go to a wrecker and get one. As it turned out, he would >heve had to make engine bay mods to get it in, so he didn't bother. As for New prices for "genuine parts" (ie with the GMH logo plastered all over) are always going to be extortionate. Hardly surprising that a lot of work would be required to fit an RB30 to a HX: it is a _totally_ different engine to the old 186/202 pushrod designs. Still, sounds like a damn good idea, and I know which engine I'd prefer ;-) >the V6 - Yes, it's a Buick, although I don't know what, exactly, but I'm >told that it is a re-hash of an **OLD** engine (hence, the pushrods). As for >the Ecotec V6... It's a completely redesigned engine, so I'm told (by a guy >at the showroom a couple of years ago). Apparently, both the bore and stroke >are different, there are more aerodynamic inlet, and exhaust manifolds, >etc... Basically, it is a completely new engine, within the old casting, or, >at least, so I'm told. A Holden engineer told me that there are virtually no interchangeable parts between the Ecotec and earlier versions. For example, there's around 0.5" difference in deck height alone between them. Steve Lamb Department of Defence, DSTO Aeronautical and Maritime Research Laboratory 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 21:42:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14960 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:42:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14956 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:42:22 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Mon, 11 May 98 11:45:10 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7CD2.11813A20@PJARAMAZ >; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:43:51 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7CD2.11813A20@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Whattza Holden?. Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:43:50 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD2.11813A20" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD2.11813A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just had a look, 0xD0000 looks ok, LDS 0x01FF as expected but then JSRs to D97B - should be D87B (RTS time waste) in the '808. Also, buckets of 0x00 is represented as 0x01 - I think and extra bit is flipped here or their. Cheers, Peter ---------- From: Scot Sealander Sent: Sunday, May 10, 1998 12:26 PM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Justin Albury wrote: > > Anybody have a bin off of something like that??. > try this...ambx > this was the the production version.....when played with ....welll :-) Justin must have a defective PROM reader. This file is also corrupt. Either that or every single location has an odd value..... ;-) Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD2.11813A20 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjMBAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA FQAAAFJFOiBXaGF0dHphIEhvbGRlbj8uALsGAQWAAwAOAAAAzgcFAAsACwArADIAAQBOAQEggAMA DgAAAM4HBQALAAsAJAAwAAEARQEBCYABACEAAABBNEU5N0QyQ0JDRThEMTExQkVCQjAwNDAwNTVG MkE2RgBaBwEDkAYA5AQAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAQAA5AECwJT9+fL0BHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAAUkU6IFdoYXR0emEgSG9sZGVuPy4AAAAAAgFxAAEA AAAWAAAAAb18fj8lLH3ppei8EdG+uwBABV8qbwAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAA ABkAAABwamFyYW1hekBpbmdlbmljby5jb20uYXUAAAAAAwAGEJX5kmsDAAcQMAIAAB4ACBABAAAA ZQAAAEpVU1RIQURBTE9PSywwWEQwMDAwTE9PS1NPSyxMRFMwWDAxRkZBU0VYUEVDVEVEQlVUVEhF TkpTUlNUT0Q5N0ItU0hPVUxEQkVEODdCKFJUU1RJTUVXQVNURSlJTlRIRTgwOEEAAAAAAgEJEAEA AABSAwAATgMAAMgFAABMWkZ160St8/8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbD AoMyA8YHEwKDujMTDX0KgAjPCdk7Ff94MjU1AoAKgQ2xC2Bu8GcxMDMUIAsKEvIMAcJjAEAgSnVz BUARwBBkIGEgFZBvayzDCoUKhTB4RDAc8RuDYwQgG7EgTEQF8BzAMBgxRkYbYAQgZXhwRQWQdAmA IGJ1BUB0JmgJ8BrQU1IEIHRvACBEOTdCIC0gVHNoCGBsHzFlIFA4USCBKFJUBfB0B3EgZncekB8Q KSALgB+CICAnODA4LhvsQWzMc28dwB9QY2sSAB2BrmYeEh0gBAAgFgBwFgC/EfACMB8hHpEeIiCh SR+BNQuAaxtgbhtQHsB0cvkbcGJpBUAl0RjQBSAe4D8bUB+gFgAdkAXAH5Fpcq0jjUMfoASQcxvd UBIA3wSQG+wb7Ar0KQAxI1AC0eBpLTE0NA3wDNAvk/kLWTE2CqADYB8QHwAgoF8xtwqHMGsMMDE2 RgNhOv8yvjE2DIIGAAWgBUAGYAdA/yfhLLcyzzE2BmACMDSfNaxSdSfwYXkdwE07sCBDGSAdwDE5 OTg8IDJoOjI2LHBNN18zbVSGbzmfNatkaXlfDcBMaUBBgRlAMi4J8GekLm8nkG8tGwBhHxAZQiBk dT1POG51YmqnHvE/bzWrUmVFwFcRwDUCQHobcEgG8A2wbj/zI40uljM2MDcUIgwBMTavGuIi0SRw H1ByPBB3MUKKOhvsPk3xQW55BuD2ZDwQEcB2IVAoYgOgJVBfJWAlUSSQB4AngmcbgGn3JQAfgULg P0jOTgAoQDwQqSeBcy5SwGEG0HhRuP9SkSJSIvMjAjExQzAfAEKQvwOgTuAR4FVBUsFSwHcfol0L UXkfIQPwH5AgVgNlgmxXsCAgOi0pG+y9S+VtGvRO4w2xHvFpTuFwUFJPTSXxG0AEkC7tV+BUU9Iv YGwhUCXRB0BlJJAgBaFydQUwI4ZF71cRBJBQwymyZVWBPBAAkPcZAFwxFZBjQuBVQhHAXHF1T1Fk G1B2B0AKUFXzID47WB42fFfgV+A2xUBjkwtgBRB0eQWgbm4e8fouBaBtLU9JjxnbMTYKhQUVIQBp cAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzCAetFDfXy9AUAACDCAetFDfXy9AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJF OiAAAAAAAwANNP03AACSYg== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD2.11813A20-- From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 21:47:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15079 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:47:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15072 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:47:26 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Mon, 11 May 98 11:47:25 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7CD2.62235120@PJARAMAZ >; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:46:06 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7CD2.62235120@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Whattza Holden?. Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:46:05 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD2.62235120" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD2.62235120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Get it as a raw binary file or .S19. Also find out what package was used to generate the calibration. Also, wing a copy this way if thats not a problem :-) Cheers, Peter ---------- From: Matthew Harding Sent: Sunday, May 10, 1998 11:36 PM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. At 10:53 8/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 10:39 AM >Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. >>> >>> >the group-A it is a twin t-bodie setup with a huge plemin chamber with >>> >stright runners that if you shine a light down the runner you can see >>> >the valve and up the top end are some s/steel trumpets which with little >>> >mods can be made adjustable........these little babys are good for 400kw >>> >now that is 500hp+ std t-bodies are 1000cfm and they ran bosch green >>> >injectors with a delco p4 808 ecm :-) >>> >> >Anybody have a bin off of something like that??. The VP commodore rally car I mentioned is going to have the memcal 'tweaked' after the engine build that is under way... I will ask the efi guy if I can have a copy yeh? do i need to tell him what format etc? I could probably get a stock one to, because the 'efi guy' i mention does a bit of their development ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD2.62235120 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgYBAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA FQAAAFJFOiBXaGF0dHphIEhvbGRlbj8uALsGAQWAAwAOAAAAzgcFAAsACwAuAAUAAQAkAQEggAMA DgAAAM4HBQALAAsALAAiAAEAPwEBCYABACEAAABBOEU5N0QyQ0JDRThEMTExQkVCQjAwNDAwNTVG MkE2RgBeBwEDkAYATAYAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAQAA5AGD+to9+fL0BHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAAUkU6IFdoYXR0emEgSG9sZGVuPy4AAAAAAgFxAAEA AAAWAAAAAb18fo+2LH3pqei8EdG+uwBABV8qbwAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAA ABkAAABwamFyYW1hekBpbmdlbmljby5jb20uYXUAAAAAAwAGEHxcC1sDAAcQoQMAAB4ACBABAAAA ZQAAAEhJLEdFVElUQVNBUkFXQklOQVJZRklMRU9SUzE5QUxTT0ZJTkRPVVRXSEFUUEFDS0FHRVdB U1VTRURUT0dFTkVSQVRFVEhFQ0FMSUJSQVRJT05BTFNPLFdJTkdBQ09QWVRISVMAAAAAAgEJEAEA AAC6BAAAtgQAAAkIAABMWkZ1jMDqpv8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbD AoMyA8YHEwKDujMTDX0KgAjPCdk7Ff94MjU1AoAKgQ2xC2Bu8GcxMDMUIAsKEvIMAcJjAEAgSGks CoUKhVJHEgAgaQVAYQQgYWggcmEH4GILgArAeSQgZgMQZSAFsS5TGDE5Lht2CoVBbHNSbx1RbmQd oHUFQHeHEcAFQAqwY2thZx2Q2nccYXUR8B+gdB9QIKBObgSQICAdkHRoHZBjqQdAaWIh0WkCIC4e T2xvLB/wC4BnHIEFoHD/HUAiIAQAIMEdQAaQIhEgIHkEIG5vHEEgQANgAmBloG0gOi0pGxxDIjD1 BJBzGw1QEgAEkBscCvQRIoAxODAC0WktMTw0NA3wDNArswtZMTbXCqADYCHwYwVALS3XCofXLIsM MC1WRgNhOi7eLVbfDIIF0CAgIiEH4EgLESRxPy5/L40GYAIwML8xy1N1/x+QJYAkQDKQHUAZICRA HgCEOTg4UDE6MzYpcOZNM48vjVRvNc8xyzNAZHlfDcBpQD2xGUAyIi4J8GcubyUwby3OcwGQIfA+ UGR1OX80njh1YmotkTufMctSZaVB8FcgEXR6HJBIBvD5DbBuPyMdKrY5ICxXFCIbDAEtVkEFQBkg OjUzgCAgOC8wNS84wewtMCvQOHF5CGAf8C1icjoKhT5EIeFB8DBwaZk31zA4OIZIUDM5E3DdOWY+ QYdD30ToPk+wT0iPSqAiIgnACGBwLUEcItslQRyQdCRhIVAtBuAzQD8dkBHxURAkUSIgHIFodf8g oQtQJvBSARGxBtAEkFMDp0/qPvAFEGdoBUByN7DfIbEEICXiJaJJonMlMCGwxxyBIoBWAmRvd1IR IjFfVkRJkyJgA6AR8GVP7nb9B0B2V8EfkVLhIiIhYFLwvwnwH6AKwFKRA3BSkS8+8McJ4AMgVdB1 bXASACVR/yUwEbBTBCKAAkAdgE/qBGF3BCBZolSAIADADbAcUGTuaiEQAZEdgC5hxSIhEfA3XuUc 4AGgeRxxXLFnb88EcB1QBbFJUWt3T+omQBcH4FbEBCA1K1BocCv/SJA+8CFBUkRjVBkgK1AaoL8n AFtyIiEdQBywYIFvBPD/U0AJw0/qC4BBsgWwJVFTJO0NsGwFoCBANEigS+BcUJ5jJwBscScoUFI8 cwMAxnBP2EpGQW55UlEdQP8RwFtCHOIdoA3QcCFc0yUhWySBIoBrIgIgID9E/lTpIjFWUCTBbQRh BbBY0d0HQGwdQCJgBcBJYMA1kf8i4SExJUFjsCRyIWFvgyIiLQeAbSJhCoUnUeBlYflxYGQnHFAB gFSRIiI+YflXomJ1AxBoQmW0N7FUkn8lgGHBGxx0kAPwdBAcUWv3eGQdYCGAdSWTdJBZom+F4STT eWVoPxscWGAcIP8mMAngIUMh8HvhJTAnACAD72QBAMAFQBIAY36dfUEIYH95USaiYYEdQCCgJmI+ 8G//IHAdoFexIWAkQFSAImAhEf0iEyd8lXfwfLB0tVhRZzJfCoUc8AVAcHEiIWl/YWX7W0AVkHB0 shscRY8sVxo1Fy1WCoUVIQCNgAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzBAYpBZfny9AUAACDBAYpBZ fny9AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AAA95w== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD2.62235120-- From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 21:52:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15216 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:52:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15210 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:52:33 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Mon, 11 May 98 11:54:01 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7CD3.4DE2E120@PJARAMAZ >; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:52:42 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7CD3.4DE2E120@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Aussie 808 ?? Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:52:41 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD3.4DEC08E0" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD3.4DEC08E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From memory, 10 deg with the ECU in diag mode. Peter ---------- From: Bruce Plecan Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 4:43 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Aussie 808 ?? On the V-8, aussie, 808's do they use 0 for initial timing?. Distributor lead disconnected. 6?. Jus curious ya know. Cheers Bruce ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD3.4DEC08E0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IioBAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA EgAAAFJFOiBBdXNzaWUgODA4ID8/ALkEAQWAAwAOAAAAzgcFAAsACwA0ACkAAQBOAQEggAMADgAA AM4HBQALAAsANAAOAAEAMwEBCYABACEAAABBQ0U5N0QyQ0JDRThEMTExQkVCQjAwNDAwNTVGMkE2 RgBpBwEDkAYAkAMAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAA QAA5AIAvfnt/fL0BHgBwAAEAAAASAAAAUkU6IEF1c3NpZSA4MDggPz8AAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAAB vXx/e34sfemt6LwR0b67AEAFXypvAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAGQAAAHBq YXJhbWF6QGluZ2VuaWNvLmNvbS5hdQAAAAADAAYQW3T6zwMABxD5AAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAARlJP TU1FTU9SWSwxMERFR1dJVEhUSEVFQ1VJTkRJQUdNT0RFUEVURVItLS0tLS0tLS0tRlJPTTpCUlVD RVBMRUNBTlNFTlQ6TU9OREFZLE1BWTExLDE5OTg0OjQzQU1UTzpESQAAAAACAQkQAQAAAAECAAD9 AQAA5AMAAExaRnU6rIfa/wAKAQ8CFQKkA+QF6wKDAFATA1QCAGNoCsBzZXTuMgYABsMCgzIDxgcT AoO6MxMNfQqACM8J2TsV/3gyNTUCgAqBDbELYG7wZzEwMxQgCwoS8gwB0mMAQCBGA2EgB4AEYLhy eSwKhQqFGSAgDbBEZyAD8HRoIB0QZeAgRUNVIAuAHKAHMOsc0ARiLhusUBIABJAbrEEK9GxpMTgw AtFp8C0xNDQN8AzQIaMLWVwxNgqgA2AfkGMFQC2/I8cKhyJ7DDAjRhriOiTOgyNGDIIgQnJ1Yx1g /FBsBZAAcCRvJX0GYAIwyyavJ7tNAiBkYRuABdALLaAccDEtwDE5OTigIDQ6NDMTcE0pTzklfVRv K48nux3weV+ZDcBpQDNhGUAyLgnwAGcub2hpby1zZwGQH5A0AGR1Ly8qXnWcYmojgTFPJ7tBdQQQ zQiQICEwLpA/Px/PINO8MzYiRxQiDAEjRk8DoNEdQlYtOC3AYTmTLcDlOfEnBCBkbx0yLgA5kP8d YByQAhAFwAuAHQAHMR0wQwdwC4BnPy4gHAZExQQAdAUQYnV0BbEo8NxhZB3hBPACIG4jgQmALUEB NkDwCoVKOZAgYwcIcQhgBCB5YSBrbrRvdx6GQx1QBJBzCoX/KIMbrDrPIkcaNSNGCoUVIQIASzAA AAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMAD4x2t/fL0BQAAIMAD4x2t/fL0BHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6 IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAJ/o ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD3.4DEC08E0-- From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 22:09:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15595 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:09:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15585 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:09:19 -0400 Received: from pclab38.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab38.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.138]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA16567 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:09:03 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:09:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805110209.MAA16567@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Holdens a little info X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Actually, the normally aspirated 3L is the RB-30E, and the Turbo is the RB-30ET. RB-30E has comp. ratio of 9:1, and the RB-30ET has comp. ratio of 7.5:1, so obviously, they have different heads. Even still, both have problems with cracking heads, so you have to be careful not to everheat them. Even still, I've heard of a RB-30ET getting 470 HP, and another (with a little bit of nitrous) getting 670 HP. Not bad from a 3L engine... >> a nissan 3L also (some one else will know more) > >The nissan is an RB-30 > >in both normally aspirated, and turbo configurations..... > > > From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 22:18:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15902 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:18:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15897 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:17:59 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Mon, 11 May 98 12:22:10 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7CD7.3C84F040@PJARAMAZ >; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:20:51 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7CD7.3C84F040@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Holdens a little info Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:20:49 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD7.3C84F040" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD7.3C84F040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- From: Justin Albury Sent: Sunday, May 10, 1998 7:00 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Holdens a little info Peter Jaramaz wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > Just being picky :-) true about the vl but also the vl was the first of the efi 304 with the totaly awsome group-a version 4.9 efi Oh yeah, drove a worked Walky a few years back - I tell ya, its was frightenly quick :-) the rb30 is a nissan inline 6 that weighed 14 kg more and 7 kw less than the series 1 3800 v6........hey but then we also added a turbo... :-) Now thats interesting given the 3800 has iron heads and 0.8L more capacity. justin Peter ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD7.3C84F040 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjMCAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA GgAAAFJFOiBIb2xkZW5zIGEgbGl0dGxlIGluZm8AuQgBBYADAA4AAADOBwUACwAMABQAMQABADcB ASCAAwAOAAAAzgcFAAsACwAWAAQAAQALAQEJgAEAIQAAAEEzRTk3RDJDQkNFOEQxMTFCRUJCMDA0 MDA1NUYyQTZGAFkHAQOQBgDABAAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAA AwA2AAAAAABAADkAgJ0YaoN8vQEeAHAAAQAAABoAAABSRTogSG9sZGVucyBhIGxpdHRsZSBpbmZv AAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb18g2oYLH3ptei8EdG+uwBABV8qbwAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAA AAAeAB8MAQAAABkAAABwamFyYW1hekBpbmdlbmljby5jb20uYXUAAAAAAwAGENG5jgwDAAcQ6AEA AB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAC0tLS0tLS0tLS1GUk9NOkpVU1RJTkFMQlVSWVNFTlQ6U1VOREFZLE1BWTEw LDE5OTg3OjAwQU1UTzpESVlFRklARUZJMzMyRU5HT0hJTy1TVEFURUVEVVNVQkpFQ1Q6UkU6SE8A AAAAAgEJEAEAAAAqAwAAJgMAABQGAABMWkZ1NO3quf8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArA c2V07jIGAAbDAoMyA8YHEwKDujMTDX0KgAjPCdk7Ff94MjU1AoAKgQ2xC2Bu8GcxMDMUIAsKEvIM ARpjAEAgCoUKi2xpMQQ4MALRaS0xNDTPDfAM0BzDC1kxNgqgA2D2dAWQBUAtHucKhx2bDDB1HmZG A2E6H+4eZgyCIDBKdXN0C4ATcGxi/QhweR+PIJ0GYAIwIc8i24BTdW5kYXksBdANKNAgGSAo8DE5 OTjYIDc6HGATcE0kfyCdDFRvJr8i22RpeV+ZDcBpQC6RGUAyLgnwgGcub2hpby0jwGZhHpAvMGR1 Kl8ljnWcYmoeoSx/IttSZTLQzkgG8A2wBjFhIBwgAkB4bGUgC4ACEBrvG/Mz3jYdZxQiDAEeZlAS AASQiyOQCsBhAMB6IHcecho6CoU+GtY68EhpIGBHdXlzLDqPI5MgBGJlC4BnIHBpY+JrKTA6LSkK jxoPNu9zN/8eonRyClA1YAbgdfVC4Wg14HYDICQwBUAHQORzb0Omd2EEIEOyHJAzEeAFQG9mQ6Mu kSAzbDA0OhA1oGhDoj6FdGcegAdAKTBhd0SAB4Ag0wnACGBwLTVwdgSQAJDhAiAgNC45RmI+jz+f hUpiT0cgeWVhaCjwrmQDYElANWF3BbBrCYDcIFcHQD4hNXBmB9FMwZcR4D2AANBrHtAgSULw5GVs AyB5YSjwNaAEIKNFIgNQaWdoHpBuSCH8cXU+AT5PQU84mUd2Q8H8cmJGsDXwNVIDAAQQA5HrC4Ac IG414DZDoS/wOhDPPaBRAE3hHMAgaz3QBGD/FgA1YCiwKdBX4AfgNdAEEX1W8W5UqRHwCIEEIBrA M/McUUPgNi5bRUPAKTBEIs9DsQOgV0BEVGFkDbBN8P01cHQIcAbgW0FR30sPGtb8Tm8H4FbyBCAL gDlhB5DzI9E90GdpSUADoEOyWtP/EcBhMQNgA6BDwF0QNVFYgZAwLjhMWBRjYV6AcmM1oHkuUh9T L1Q8av8jszZPZg5flBtMXy85NGtFBRUhAG4wAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMMBr1DR7fL0B QAAIMMBr1DR7fL0BHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAB9j ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD7.3C84F040-- From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 22:21:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15985 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:21:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15978 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:21:00 -0400 Received: from pclab38.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab38.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.138]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA19892 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:20:52 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:20:52 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805110220.MAA19892@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: RE: Whattza Holden?. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu It's a damned shame he had to retire. It would have been nice if he had won a tenth Bathurst. Oh well... Sh-1-t happens... >Nope! > >Aussie racing legend. > >Peter From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 22:23:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16075 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:23:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16071 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:23:04 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Mon, 11 May 98 12:25:36 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7CD7.B6F58B00@PJARAMAZ >; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:24:16 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7CD7.B6F58B00@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Holdens a little info Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:24:15 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD7.B6FEB2C0" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD7.B6FEB2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, >true, as lmy Father was looking at puting one of the Nissan engines = into his >HX Kingswood at one time, and at the Holden spare parts place, they = told him >$9000 for a short motor from the VL Commodore, and then they said that = he >would be better to go to a wrecker and get one. As it turned out, he = would >heve had to make engine bay mods to get it in, so he didn't bother. As = for New prices for "genuine parts" (ie with the GMH logo plastered all over) are always going to be extortionate. Hardly surprising that a lot of = work would be required to fit an RB30 to a HX: it is a _totally_ different engine to the old 186/202 pushrod designs. Still, sounds like a damn = good idea, and I know which engine I'd prefer ;-) Interesting bit of info - a new VS V6 short engine (with a few = accesories not normally associated with a short engine) from GMH is only = $2800.=20 >the V6 - Yes, it's a Buick, although I don't know what, exactly, but = I'm >told that it is a re-hash of an **OLD** engine (hence, the pushrods). = As for >the Ecotec V6... It's a completely redesigned engine, so I'm told (by a = guy >at the showroom a couple of years ago). Apparently, both the bore and = stroke >are different, there are more aerodynamic inlet, and exhaust manifolds, >etc... Basically, it is a completely new engine, within the old = casting, or, >at least, so I'm told. A Holden engineer told me that there are virtually no interchangeable = parts between the Ecotec and earlier versions. For example, there's around = 0.5" difference in deck height alone between them. Very true - trying to stick and Eaton charger on a series I VN V6 :-( Peter ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD7.B6FEB2C0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhACAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA GgAAAFJFOiBIb2xkZW5zIGEgbGl0dGxlIGluZm8AuQgBBYADAA4AAADOBwUACwAMABgADwABABkB ASCAAwAOAAAAzgcFAAsADAAVADEAAQA4AQEJgAEAIQAAAEI4RTk3RDJDQkNFOEQxMTFCRUJCMDA0 MDA1NUYyQTZGAF8HAQOQBgAEBwAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAA AwA2AAAAAABAADkAQDiJ5IN8vQEeAHAAAQAAABoAAABSRTogSG9sZGVucyBhIGxpdHRsZSBpbmZv AAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb18g+SJLH3puei8EdG+uwBABV8qbwAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAA AAAeAB8MAQAAABkAAABwamFyYW1hekBpbmdlbmljby5jb20uYXUAAAAAAwAGEHe7UzsDAAcQAAUA AB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhJQUxMLFRSVUUsQVNMTVlGQVRIRVJXQVNMT09LSU5HQVRQVVRJTkdPTkVP RlRIRU5JU1NBTkVOR0lORVNJTlRPSElTSFhLSU5HU1dPT0RBVE9ORVRJTUUsQU5EQVRUSEVIT0wA AAAAAgEJEAEAAABvBQAAawUAAM8IAABMWkZ164EheP8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArA c2V07jIGAAbDAoMyA8YHEwKDujMTDX0KgAjPCdk7Ff94MjU1AoAKgQ2xC2Bu8GcxMDMUIAsKEvIM AUJjAEAgSGkgB0BshiwKhQqLbGkzNg3w1wtVFCIMAXADYHQFkAVAaD50cgpQLBsABCBsgG15IEZh dGgEkEQgdx7Cb29rC4BnYxsABUBwdXQgIgIgZfkg8GYgH1EHsAQBA5EJ8A5nC4AHkQuAdG8gaIME AAqFPkhYIEsgIfsD4B/wZCBSIQIgsAeAHqF2biRTIXJIBvANsAOgc7cKsSEgCrF0BCALUWMekV8f UR8QIsAmECLhbSMmJLQ5MCkAIAIQBcBhJlD6aBWhIARgIsAFwANSIWPoVkwgCFBtBGEFsCUV7x9R A6AnkyHgaSvyIGEfYOsjJiQgdSgBYiEgLlACQLsfcSLBZyLQIsEpgHcWAGxjax9xJUJnEgAg8i5/ E3AigSWRCHAhECRQCGB03x6gIYEt8yMmH2B2ISARwL8r8SLQAMAv4CIVLkBhHxB/BGEEIC7yMHEx IQuAHqBzyyLRISBkLNBuJwVABuC/H1Iw0ylBG1wHwh3QaSdQyTdjICIwYG51NFImw7giICgIkB+Q MSBoIWO4R01IH9EvIQtRcy6xzzGRGxEg8DMwcikKhSaC+wdAH6B5BCAvICAiIsEuUfxleCohILAC IB9AMMEa0P0LEWwskQhwONEAkD5iLRKfKYAVkCSBIVAkIHJrCoW7LfcWAHE5wDxCIsFmMSFxA5FS QjMpIC9TI6A6dzWDBCApgF8iwAGQGyB5/l82UQ3QPDECMAqFNCUiwcMhcifyMTg2LwHQEiC/IJAp oANgJFANsACQZwCA3T+xUyCwGyE18XUlUB7Rxmkz8SmAZGFtA6AvICcEcAqFLNBlYSUkSSDoa25v B+B3IvARsDQWPEknJFAd0A3AH3E7Le89BhlvGnVPJUkCMDwxPBA9ICJiMSEhQQuAAhAgLZcpcSEQ B+BWBfBWNimV/TQlKDrDKYBGgAfgANA5Ab8FsAiQBCBNMAVATTByAMD3RgEesTYAYwcwHgAkUFTF fVPqKSpUO1JFYQIgQCEk/DI4KQAw0BvPHN8d5SMmdyqzU8BTAFkHkB6gMSAn3UVyQjnAL9AeoWwf UAhg/mc68E0AK3A2kk0lH0AeoNs+8ADQdEAgHqBiIKBOMd8oVyfjLQNFNhYALRHAKaCDITIDkSoq T0xEZIDPVDcsISdVSOZzKTc9XXPuRQWgHgFToS5okEzwXnTtBaBtC1ASAGVAIRYBSYOfMZEiJDXj YdEn1ChiVtH5LxB1eSMmJYUpoS+gH/DbKpBpInVpcSEyeUyAEeD3GwAvIGaycCZyAjBhUzbh/yFj BuA9kiVRPBADYC/gbHf/JpFGVydzPZImkQRgPZIEkPUEcHk/cG048CKRaYElJP8+8BHASQAp4QBw BpAmAV4w6yMmEgBjaJJCHsA48EXy/15CRVRpSVNCaqY6wguAR+f/d9BR4x6gBbB2lyBhaYA8AfVr Cy4bXEEl5iIkLsMoAfcHgCz0cyh2Q2AxUFajTTD/IpIEkBGxGQBMgAJgJqVPJf0ugXcJ4SFjaAV1 QwrAW0DfH3E80QCQAiBJ0kYFsWEBX2licwVeggNgSqEgWkA1/iJPJUZWJ1AikUlhL9AtQb1JoGhB MRWQNGKD2G19tvtPn1CsVgSQJ8EecVLxHmDeeT5VUeGJ0SVCRR9AAiD/aTARwTBgBcCQMSmBBnEH kYlNAFZOU6I6LShafz9bj1ycks8aFpTcjH8gUBdpkTemFSEAmeAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAA BzAAi4yNg3y9AUAACDAAi4yNg3y9AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AAA+Ig== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD7.B6FEB2C0-- From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 22:28:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16202 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:28:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16198 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:28:10 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Mon, 11 May 98 12:28:39 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7CD8.23E17440@PJARAMAZ >; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:27:19 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7CD8.23E17440@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Whattza Holden?. Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:27:18 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD8.23E17440" X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD8.23E17440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep, Twin staged throttle bodies (small primary, large secondary). Worth = about $2000 AUS if you can find one. I've heard unconfirmed reports that = GMH parts supply has dried up. Peter ---------- From: Eileen Tholey Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 11:34 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. I am interested in the V8 manifold. It looks similar to the Chevy LS1, = but I am told it has twin throttle bodies. TIA Paul At 11:10 PM 5/10/98 +1000, you wrote: >At 05:56 6/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >>Where the h*ll can I get that K*ck *ss TPI intake in the Holdens? I = am >serious! >> >>Paul Tholey > > >I know of several.... do you mean the v6 or v8 ???? > >I have a friend who has a VP commodore rally car.... with heaps of = spares > >let me know what you want > > > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD8.23E17440 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhMCAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAYQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMy LmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQBTTVRQAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVk dQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAIgAAAGRpeV9lZmlAZWZpMzMyLmVuZy5v aGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAACQAAAAnZGl5X2VmaUBlZmkz MzIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOkRJWV9FRklARUZJMzMyLkVO Ry5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAKcSAEEgAEA FQAAAFJFOiBXaGF0dHphIEhvbGRlbj8uALsGAQWAAwAOAAAAzgcFAAsADAAbABIAAQAfAQEggAMA DgAAAM4HBQALAAwAGgASAAEAHgEBCYABACEAAABCQ0U5N0QyQ0JDRThEMTExQkVCQjAwNDAwNTVG MkE2RgBqBwEDkAYAEAUAABQAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAA AAAAQAA5AIAhdVGEfL0BHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAAUkU6IFdoYXR0emEgSG9sZGVuPy4AAAAAAgFxAAEA AAAWAAAAAb18hFF1LH3pvei8EdG+uwBABV8qbwAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAA ABkAAABwamFyYW1hekBpbmdlbmljby5jb20uYXUAAAAAAwAGEG5zHWADAAcQWQIAAB4ACBABAAAA ZQAAAFlFUCxUV0lOU1RBR0VEVEhST1RUTEVCT0RJRVMoU01BTExQUklNQVJZLExBUkdFU0VDT05E QVJZKVdPUlRIQUJPVVQkMjAwMEFVU0lGWU9VQ0FORklORE9ORUlWRUhFQVJEVU4AAAAAAgEJEAEA AACAAwAAfAMAACkGAABMWkZ1vowj4P8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbD AoMyA8YHEwKDujMTDX0KgAjPCdk7Ff94MjU1AoAKgQ2xC2Bu8GcxMDMUIAsKEvIMAYJjAEAgWWVw LAqFrQqFVAPwA6BzAZBnCYAYIHRoA2ACQGxlIE0G4GQIkAQgKHMAwGwNAyBwBRAAwHJ5LCCdC2By HIAcQAWRbmQecZApLiBXFaFoIAGguwhgBUAkAdAgwBNwVQXwSQaQIHkIYCBjA5FmFwuAHKACIGUf wEkndokdMGhlCxEgdW4fQd0h8HIHgBygFgBwFaEEIMUcwGEFQEdNSB4gCsBRJFFzdXALUHki0GFN BCBkCIEjIXAuGyxQDxIABJAbLAr0bGkxOIMgwAIAaS0xNDQN8OcM0CnDC1kxNgqgHOEFkH0FQC0r 5wqHKpsMMCtmRp0DYTos7itmDIIgRQMQywnhG/BoBvBleSyPLZ1vBmACMC7PL9tNH1IekU0RNdAg MTEeoDE5OaI4NkE6MzQTcE0xfzktnVRvM78v2x1weV+ZDcBpQDuhGUAyLgnwgGcub2hpby0cUTMn sDxAZHU3bzKOdWJOaiuhOY8v21JlP+BXwSSRdHphIEgG8A2wzG4/Jq0oxjM2KmcUIusMAStmSSAw bSEwAjAEkL8HkCewHKAcIRzAHTBWNsB/A4EGkEKRH8AigAVAFZBvnmslUQdwAxAKwXRvRyNKQyLg diXATFM2YWL/IHAKhUYDSWBCoCEwBUAl4o50HBIczSatVElBJr3oYXVsCoVBBUA24RkgoSeATSA1 LxkgLzaxXisZICDAHqAhcncrcjoFCoU+UCEwNTo1NplIMDYvUyBRIi0wKeA7Ua9Ssj5CAEaBRyNo Kj8eASGyRgAcgAVAJINLKpBjayAqBBFUUEYAOUZRYWsdMEcFQoRzPz9IMUYRUnYR8AUQCGBzIX9V J1UnT3IxDFunUnZGAGt0bm8H4G8hUBHwIrBy7QdALl+BSDBkSXAhcgeAWwORRzJ2U2AFsXY2wD// YXFdfyXRIrFCYANQCJAiEc53MSAl00JgVlAhoANwvwRhBbAdMF9RJbEhsHJfhPcD8CARIuFwBCBe 4gqxB5D/XP4dIAVAB4BehGOwJKFUg/8AcEqmXW8bLEN/KmcaNStmCwqFFSEAb4ADABAQAAAAAAMA ERADAAAAQAAHMMDotC2EfL0BQAAIMMDotC2EfL0BHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcA ADZq ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CD8.23E17440-- From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 22:33:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16257 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:33:06 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16253 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:33:01 -0400 Received: from pclab38.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab38.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.138]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA23262 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:32:58 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:32:58 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805110232.MAA23262@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On both my coil, and my distributor, I have the "male" connections (although, I intend to get a new ignition controller, and a new coil, and the coil may have a "female" connection - These are obviously non-standard parts). I won't buy one just now, but I'll keep your message so I can contact you when I'm ready to buy one. What air:fuel ratios can this thing burn down to? I would like to be able to lean out my carburettor (Yes, I have an antiquated engine, but I intend to convert it to EFI, when I have the money, either this, or put in another engine with EFI already installed on it). Thanks for your help. Danny Barrett. >Hi, Danny > >It will surely work well as long as your engine has a separate, >exchangeable cable between coil and distributor! With your car this should >be the case. If you can specify the type of connectors used for this cable >on each side, I'll look if I can get a suitable one for you. All the energy >transformation system is included around this cable. And it works >independently from primary creation system for energy such as coil or >voltage. It influences and works completely on the high-voltage secondary >side of the ignition energy, because that's what makes the engine really >run! > >Joachim From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 22:39:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16391 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:39:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from digger1.defence.gov.au (digger1.defence.gov.au [203.5.217.4]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16385 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:39:18 -0400 Received: from exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au (exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.94]) by digger1.defence.gov.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA30370 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:06:59 +0930 (CST) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au ([131.185.2.5]) by exchsa1.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id KWFH21GW; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:09:10 +0930 Received: from hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au (hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au [146.221.39.21]) by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA19568 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:09:09 +0930 (CST) Received: from [146.221.36.211] ([146.221.36.211]) by hotblk.dsto.defence.gov.au with SMTP; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:32:51 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199805110209.MAA16567@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:39:51 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Steve Lamb Subject: Re: Holdens a little info Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Actually, the normally aspirated 3L is the RB-30E, and the Turbo is the >RB-30ET. RB-30E has comp. ratio of 9:1, and the RB-30ET has comp. ratio of >7.5:1, so obviously, they have different heads. Even still, both have >problems with cracking heads, so you have to be careful not to everheat The head cracking problem is very common in VL Commodes, but is a direct consequence of the cooling system design (low radiator header tank relative to the head), which was in turn dictated by the bonnet/front-end design. R31 Skylines - which use an identical drive train, but a more "practical" radiator design - did not suffer anywhere near the same amount of cracking problems (but did suffer some problems mainly on poorly maintained vehicles). BTW, maybe you should blame Australians for the head cracking problem...... :-). After all these heads were/are cast right here in Oz: at Nissan's casting plant just outside of Dandenong, Vic. >them. Even still, I've heard of a RB-30ET getting 470 HP, and another (with >a little bit of nitrous) getting 670 HP. Not bad from a 3L engine... ....yes, and just think what we could have had in a Commodore if Nissan had kept the engine contract with GMH.......an optional RB26DETT (GTR engine) powered Commode........Hmmmm.......even might have considered buying one myself. Steve Lamb Department of Defence, DSTO Aeronautical and Maritime Research Laboratory 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 23:14:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16970 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:14:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16966 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:14:53 -0400 Received: from ABTSZ@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8YVNa19024 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:14:07 +2000 (EDT) From: ABTSZ Message-ID: <63d4ab55.35566d00@aol.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:14:07 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Throttle Response Problems Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all, I acquired a fuel-injection sytem from an '88 Chevy Berreta 2.8 V6 (730 MAP based system), and I put it on my Jag 4.2 straight six, using a manifold and throttlebody from a later fuel injected Jag. The injectors are 24# Ford SVO (the original jag injectors were 20# low impedence, and not large enough for my modified engine.) I eliminated everything from the harness except the MAP, TPS, water temp, air temp, knock sensor, and DIS. I have the P\N wire grounded. The car runs pretty well, EXCEPT for the throttle response. The throttle response is so bad, that from a stop, the car will stall when I step on the gas unless I press the gas pedal as softly and slowly as I possibly can. Even then the car stumbles rather severely before taking off. The throttle response is pretty poor, even at speeds up to about 60 MPH. The car accelerates smoothly once it gets going. Idle is pretty good, too. WOT is a little rich, but thats not too bad, actually! I have checked out the TPS, since I would imagine this is where the problem would originate, but everything seems to be OK. I get no error codes, and I have the TPS set to about .65 volts at idle (the manual states .45 to .85 V at closed throttle) and it goes up to about 4.5v at full throttle. I have tried adjusting TPS in different positions, all the way up to 1.1V at idle, with the best results at higher voltages, but still unacceptable throttle response. The only thing I can think of is that the Jag throttle plate is SO MUCH larger than the Chevy (about 65mm vs. @ 45mm? (I didn't measure, but its a BIG difference.)) I think this might result in a much larger amount of air rushing in at small throttle openings. But then the engine is much larger, also. So ratios might be the same, and that is what counts. Has anybody else had similar problems? Does anybody have any ideas as to what could be causing this or any suggestions or work arounds? ANY suggestions would be welcome. This seems to be the only (however severe) problem with this system so far. I have excellent idle, acceleration, milage, etc. But the throttle response problem makes the car almost un-drivable in traffic (and maybe even a little dangerous!) TIA, Adam PS I even checked the Harness for continuity, and there are no problems there. From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 23:34:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17260 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:34:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17255 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:34:42 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA22276 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:34:43 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Pressure Sensors & ION Eyes Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:35:32 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35656917.20857796@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35565267.2EC950DC@mwt.net> In-Reply-To: <35565267.2EC950DC@mwt.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id XAA17256 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 10 May 1998 20:20:41 -0500, Steven Gorkowski wrote: >Newark keeps the pressure sensors in stock no real wait all the other >must order from Mot. no stock . If you have to order from Mot you will >wait wait wait wait and wait. >hope this will save phone call since I did this already . >Have a good week. > >Steve >>With a small investment >> in >> better pressure measurement, ala the stuff that >> "Jack" mentioned earlier: >> http://mot2.indirect.com/senseon/mpxl5010.html >> for the sales pitch and >> http://mot2.indirect.com/books/dl200/pdf/mpxl5010rev2.pdf >> for the datasheets, for a 0-40"water range, where IF you can operate >> at >> around 20"water, the linearity and accuracy of this device will be >> just >> wunnerful for your/our porpoises. And it's "cheap", too!! (North >> American Price List says $13-15 each). RATS!!! I bloody hate it when this happens. CRAP. I KNEW there was someone else that had posted on this Moto pressure sensor stuff, and it WAS SteveGork that first mentioned using these devices in his flow bench, to me. I looked back in my archived posts, and in the time I took to look, I found Jack's followup, but not Steve's initial post, so mea culpa. YEAH, yeah, I know we're not running the no-bell prize committee here, nor the Academy frigging Awards, but it's a pisser when someone contributes some essential lead, and ends up not getting the credit he's due. So thanks Steve for the lead and for graciously not getting pissed at me for not giving you kudos where it was due. I don't mean to make a big deal outta this, but this whole bloody group clicks and runs on the key inputs of this kinda stuff, and so I ALWAYS wanna thank those that put in the essential plug-ins that make the whole thang run. That lead for them Moto devices is KEY to me building the FB of me dreams. Nough said. BUTTTT just to give ya an another way COOL example of how this dynamic works, consider the following. I post sumpin about ION not seeming to involve alot of special sauce in order to work, and Joe Zivnak posts a comment on the original Saab patent (hey Joe, what you did dude!). OK, so I go over to the IBM patent page: http://www.patents.ibm.com look up the patent Joe mentioned ( 4,862,093 ), and *danged* if it's not almost the exact same schematic that I've pulled from that '90 Saab DI module I got from my Saab parts dept. buddy, some of which I've been scratching my head for days, wondering "now why did they do THAT?" So now I have a running commentary of how the circuit I'm looking at works, POOF! Hah! WHERE else, I ask you, could this sorta thing take place and gell, except for groups like ours!! Not to sound like I'm gushing over the obvious, lemme just drop another lil gem I got outta that patent, thanks to Joe, that REALLY sweetens the pot: (page 6, the last page of the patent text) "Although the invention has been exemplified with reference to a capacitive ignition system, it will be understood that the invention can also be applied with an inductive ignition system." Hee hee. Here, where the Saab patent attorneys try to cover their bases, should a counter claim be made that THEIR patent & technique only was possible/feasible and therefore only applies to CDI, they hand us a royal golden EGG, by confirming that there's nuthin particularly crucial about using CDI with this system. Now, lest you think this is a mere detail of minutia, consider the fact that CDI is notorious for producing MUCH faster sparks than inductive IGN, and so I had always harbored some fear in the back of my mind that we might not be able to use this technique on our stock IGN systems, simply because by the time the inductive spark ionization finished, there'd be nothing left to work with, vis-a-vis ionization detection. This one lil sentence in the patent disclosure says "not to worry", we WILL be able to apply this technique to our normal inductive IGN system fired plugs. So, just to illustrate how vitally important the fractional wit system is to our endeavors, I offer these two prima facia examples. Hey, I can now even post a schematic with values on it, from the Saab module I have, since the patent discloses and protects from commercial exploitation, that very circuit!! Howja like THEM apples, maties? Make use of it for your own "research" purposes, and you're fine; try and cash in on it, and you're in a world of hurt! Ain't it grand! I LOVE it! Wahhhhoooo! ION lives! And she's prettier than ever. Whew, wadda rush. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 23:49:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17494 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:49:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17490 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:49:12 -0400 Received: from ABTSZ@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8BETa18333 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:48:23 +2000 (EDT) From: ABTSZ Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:48:23 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Ford MAF Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu In a message dated 98-05-04 21:03:14 EDT, you write: << Attn: Ford Guys A friend with a 1994 Escort GT, 1.8 twin cam is looking to do some minor modifications. The MAF is the flapper door style. It has a 7 pin connector. We pulled the other style MAF off a plain Escort. It has a 4 pin connector labled A B C D. Is there a way to incorporate this less restictive MAF into the twin cam Escort setup? I think they both have the same output, just concerned about the scaling. Anyother tips/advice is appreciated. Paul Tholey >> Here is a sight with alot of info on Bosch AirFlowMeters (AFMs) I think they are identical to the ones Ford uses. Actually, I think the Ford units even use Bosch parts #s. http://www.students.tut.fi/~k124775/ The problem is, I can't get thru to the sight at the moment. I don't know if they are haveing temporary server problems, or are defunct. But it WAS a great sight. They had a chart showing the voltage to Air Flow ratio (what you are looking for) although it would be different in different sized AFMs. The reason for the extra pins (i think) would be the Air temp which is used as a seperate factor in the calculation when using AFMs, whereas with MAFs, this is built in to the 0-5v output. I am pretty sure AFMs also put out 0-5v. Anyway, that's all I know (or think I know!) Adam From diy_efi-owner Sun May 10 23:50:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17514 for diy_efi-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:50:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from suntan.eng.usf.edu (chtaylor@suntan.eng.usf.edu [131.247.14.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17510 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:50:12 -0400 Received: from localhost (chtaylor@localhost) by suntan.eng.usf.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23241 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:50:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:50:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Taylor-iii X-Sender: chtaylor@suntan To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: EFI Books Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Wondering if anyone could refer me to some good books on EFI? Lookinf for books for the beginner up to design. Looking for books that explain how different types of fuel injection work and how to control them. Any titles would be appreciated. Thanks. Chuck Taylor chtaylor@eng.usf.edu *******************************'84 Kawasaki 900 Ninja * University of South Florida * 7.21 @ 96.37 1/8th mile * Mechanical Engineering Dept * 11.37 @ 117.27 1/4 mile * (7 months and counting) *'80 Kawasaki Z1-R 1000 ******************************* Restoration project From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 00:28:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18175 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:28:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18171 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:28:22 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm302-084.mcn.net [208.26.146.84]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05658 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:28:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35567B32.309E7923@mcn.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:14:42 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. References: <3.0.5.32.19980510230850.007a0650@mail.qonline.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Matthew Harding wrote: > > At 05:36 7/05/98 +1000, you wrote: > >>From what I'm told, the Holden V8 is a completely Australian designed engine > >(but I could have been told a heap of crap...). As for the V6, I believe it > >is a Buick. However, with the "Ecotec" V6, it is basically loosely designed > >on the previous Buick re-hash, and not, in reality the same engine, although > >the cubic displacement is still nominally 3.8L. > > actually the Holden 308 V8 has some very close similarities to the small > block chev... the 350 Chev crankshaft is used in the 308 to stroke it to > around 383 ci. > > do you think a Chev crank would bolt into an aussie designed engine ? hmmm Whatza bore-n-stroke on the 308? Looks like roughly 4.18 inch bore, and 2.8 inch stroke (assuming no oversize to build 383). I'd like to toss some numbers back and forth if you have them handy. Shannen From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 01:04:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA18626 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 01:04:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18620 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 01:04:39 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA11304 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:01:38 -0700 Received: from p57023.syspac.com (p57023.syspac.com [204.181.57.23]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA11299 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:01:36 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805110501.WAA11299@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:57:44 +0000 Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gar I remembered why I was looking at those blowers. For a High Volume Low Pressure paint syatem. The guns aren't two pricey, but the turbines are outlandish. So if you build a flow bench, you can also do HVLP painting. Probably several guns at once. I ended up with a GRACO high pressure airless rig. No, not for the same job. The GRACO is to spray elasotmeric on my roof. It looked like powder coating was goin to be preferable to HVLP for engine and small parts. Maybe Ron will share his knowledge on whats needed to do a good powder coating job. I have seen some excellent work and one fuselage where the inside of the joints was bare. I have a pretty good sandblast set up so just about every project makes me wonder about powder coating. My electric lo-rider bike frame got a quote of $50 and it was sandblasted. Thats as much as it cost to build the bike. I gave it a coat of clear spray paint and moved on. Bob McKnight Phx AZ From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 01:31:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA18923 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 01:31:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18919 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 01:31:31 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-35.brokersys.com [209.113.60.36]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17449 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:33:44 -0500 Message-ID: <35568D86.DF4EC73B@brokersys.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:32:54 -0500 From: Walter Petermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Throttle Response Problems References: <63d4ab55.35566d00@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ABTSZ wrote: > > Hi all, > > I acquired a fuel-injection sytem from an '88 Chevy Berreta 2.8 V6 (730 MAP > based system), and I put it on my Jag 4.2 straight six, using a manifold and > throttlebody from a later fuel injected Jag. The injectors are 24# Ford SVO > (the original jag injectors were 20# low impedence, and not large enough for > my modified engine.) > I eliminated everything from the harness except the MAP, TPS, water temp, air > temp, knock sensor, and DIS. I have the P\N wire grounded. > The car runs pretty well, EXCEPT for the throttle response. The throttle > response is so bad, that from a stop, the car will stall when I step on the > gas unless I press the gas pedal as softly and slowly as I possibly can. Even > then the car stumbles rather severely before taking off. The throttle > response is pretty poor, even at speeds up to about 60 MPH. The car > accelerates smoothly once it gets going. Idle is pretty good, too. WOT is a > little rich, but thats not too bad, actually! > I have checked out the TPS, since I would imagine this is where the problem > would originate, but everything seems to be OK. I get no error codes, and I > have the TPS set to about .65 volts at idle (the manual states .45 to .85 V at > closed throttle) and it goes up to about 4.5v at full throttle. I have tried > adjusting TPS in different positions, all the way up to 1.1V at idle, with the > best results at higher voltages, but still unacceptable throttle response. > The only thing I can think of is that the Jag throttle plate is SO MUCH larger > than the Chevy (about 65mm vs. @ 45mm? (I didn't measure, but its a BIG > difference.)) I think this might result in a much larger amount of air > rushing in at small throttle openings. But then the engine is much larger, > also. So ratios might be the same, and that is what counts. > Has anybody else had similar problems? Does anybody have any ideas as to what > could be causing this or any suggestions or work arounds? > ANY suggestions would be welcome. This seems to be the only (however severe) > problem with this system so far. I have excellent idle, acceleration, milage, > etc. But the throttle response problem makes the car almost un-drivable in > traffic (and maybe even a little dangerous!) > > TIA, > Adam > > PS I even checked the Harness for continuity, and there are no problems there. To test yout throttle pot you might try taking it off the throttle body and operating it manually with the car at idle. If you don't get any change in rpm while turning it by hand... If it does turn out that it's working, you might try to move the map sensor vacuum hose closer to the throttle plate, if that's possible. Walter From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 01:38:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA18988 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 01:38:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18984 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 01:38:28 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-35.brokersys.com [209.113.60.36]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17538 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:40:41 -0500 Message-ID: <35568F27.8A2D482C@brokersys.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:39:51 -0500 From: Walter Petermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: EFI Books References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Charles Taylor-iii wrote: > > Wondering if anyone could refer me to some good books on EFI? > Lookinf for books for the beginner up to design. Looking for books that > explain how different types of fuel injection work and how to control > them. Any titles would be appreciated. Thanks. > > Chuck Taylor > chtaylor@eng.usf.edu > *******************************'84 Kawasaki 900 Ninja > * University of South Florida * 7.21 @ 96.37 1/8th mile > * Mechanical Engineering Dept * 11.37 @ 117.27 1/4 mile > * (7 months and counting) *'80 Kawasaki Z1-R 1000 > ******************************* Restoration project Hellow Chuck, for a basic introduction try Chilton's Guide to Fuel Injection. Should be available at any large auto parts store. Walter From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 02:29:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA19536 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:29:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mozart.bcit.bc.ca (aix4.bcit.bc.ca [142.232.189.164]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA19532 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:29:49 -0400 Received: from pfenske (usr121.bcit.bc.ca [142.232.188.221]) by mozart.bcit.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA17616 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:28:29 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:28:29 -0700 Message-Id: <199805110628.XAA17616@mozart.bcit.bc.ca> X-Sender: ffnsp955@pophost.bcit.bc.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: peter paul fenske Subject: Re: Throttle Response Problems Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well you may not have enough AE accel enrichment. Assuming all works ok your rate of airflow increase due to the bigger tb might be doing it. Some where in your lookups are the AE coeffs for the asynch enrichment. They are based on absolute map and tps with a delta map and tps term as well as a temp variable. Still though before diggin through all that code you might try using diacom. This works beautifully to record all the vars during a run. You could try as a fix the 600 ohm resistor trick on you ctc. This will enrich the mixture slightly.. well all my 2 pence can :peter At 11:14 PM 5/10/98 EDT, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I acquired a fuel-injection sytem from an '88 Chevy Berreta 2.8 V6 (730 MAP >based system), and I put it on my Jag 4.2 straight six, using a manifold and >throttlebody from a later fuel injected Jag. The injectors are 24# Ford SVO >(the original jag injectors were 20# low impedence, and not large enough for >my modified engine.) From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 02:33:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA19564 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:33:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA19560 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:33:11 -0400 Received: from pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab1.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.101]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA28315 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:33:07 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:33:07 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805110633.QAA28315@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Holdens a little info X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Just as a matter of interest, today I was told about the "official" reason for the head cracking in the VL. Something in the radiator supposedly works loose, and restricts the coolant flow. Supposedly, if you get a radiator specialist to open up the radiator and take the bit out, they have no more overheating/cracking problems. Trouble is, I can't remember all the details about it, so my description is pretty sketchy. The RB-30ET with 670 HP actually had the GTR head put onto it, so that's part of the equation. Anyway, gotta go... Danny Barrett. >The head cracking problem is very common in VL Commodes, but is a direct >consequence of the cooling system design (low radiator header tank relative >to the head), which was in turn dictated by the bonnet/front-end design. >R31 Skylines - which use an identical drive train, but a more "practical" >radiator design - did not suffer anywhere near the same amount of cracking >problems (but did suffer some problems mainly on poorly maintained >vehicles). > >BTW, maybe you should blame Australians for the head cracking problem...... >:-). After all these heads were/are cast right here in Oz: at Nissan's >casting plant just outside of Dandenong, Vic. > >>them. Even still, I've heard of a RB-30ET getting 470 HP, and another (with >>a little bit of nitrous) getting 670 HP. Not bad from a 3L engine... > >....yes, and just think what we could have had in a Commodore if Nissan had >kept the engine contract with GMH.......an optional RB26DETT (GTR engine) >powered Commode........Hmmmm.......even might have considered buying one >myself. > > > >Steve Lamb >Department of Defence, DSTO >Aeronautical and Maritime Research Laboratory >506 Lorimer Street >Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia > >Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 >Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 > >IZCC #180 > > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 04:21:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA20251 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 04:21:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA20247 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 04:21:18 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD7CBD.BCCA9C60@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:18:19 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Water injection and racing & more Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:18:18 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 18 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >---------- >From: Matthew Harding[SMTP:mharding@qonline.com.au] >How are you involved with these 'thundersaloons' ? I knew someone who knew someone who worked on the Big block chevvy powered Opel Manta > >do you know what sort of device they are using to trigger the water to >squirt onto the discs ? One windscreen washer pump per disk ( 4 ) > >or was it manual, under the driver's control ? When the driver felt the brakes begining to fade, he pressed a button on the steering wheel so as to switch on all the pumps, a few seconds worth of a squirt did the trick. > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 05:12:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA20606 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 05:12:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sky.new.co.za (root@sky.new.co.za [196.25.18.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA20602 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 05:12:38 -0400 Received: from gateway.ccii.net (ccii.dockside.co.za [196.25.199.201]) by sky.new.co.za (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21279 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:29:10 -0200 Received: from ricebox (ricebox.ccii.net [192.168.1.20]) by gateway.ccii.net (8.7.6/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA29273 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:20:07 +0200 Message-Id: <199805110920.LAA29273@gateway.ccii.net> X-Sender: wrm@192.168.0.1 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:04:22 +0200 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu From: wrm@ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Subject: RE: Water injection and racing & more Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all Matthew asks: >I need a voltage controlled Pulse width modulator.... > >I need something that will accept an input voltage between 0 and 5 V... >and a clock pulse > >and depending on the input voltage, output a pulse who's width varies >linearly... > >have i explained this right > >so say there's a clock pulse, and the input voltage is 0V, I want a puls of >2ms to be the output.... > >if there;s a clock pulse, and the input voltage is 5V, I want a pulse of >6ms to be output.... Does it *have* to be clocked? For a steady frequency converter, one would generate a 0-5V sawtooth at that frequency, and compare that to the input voltage. Then start the output pulse when the sawtooth is at zero, and end it when the comparator sez that the sawtooth voltage has passed the input voltage. If you're clocking it from the crank/cam sensor, you have to generate the sawtooth somewhat differently. This is almost what the D-jet does. The (cam) sensor sets a flip-flip-type circuit, which then charges up an RC combination. But the D-jet is time based, not voltage based. You could probably build a good one-shot linear sawtooth generator using a binary counter and a bunch of resistors, depending on the accuracy you need. If I was at all good with ascii-art I would have drawn a couple of pictures, if you don't get what I'm saying, ask, and I'll provide the 1000 words required :-) W From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 07:50:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA21620 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:50:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.online.de (root@mail.online.de [193.158.2.93]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21616 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:50:31 -0400 Received: from ascentia-900n(really [193.159.68.118]) by mail.online.de via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:50:45 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #2 built DST-Jun-10) Message-Id: From: "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> To: Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:44:47 +0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Danny, The system itself will give huge possibilities to bring down a/f-ratio, because it changes and adapts each type of combustion process much better to the engines' parameters. The minimum a/f-ratios achievable with a well structured spark energy are depending on your combustion chamber, spark plug gap, ignition coil, a.s.o. For bringing the a/f-ratio down, some fine-tuning of spark advance and electrode gapping will greatly help to use at least some of the impulse oscillator ignition systems' advantages. By the way, DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING ABOUT A HIGH-MILEAGE CARB IN THE 30's by Charles M. Pogue which could do 216 mpg!! Joachim ---------- > Von: Danny Barrett > An: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Betreff: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy > Datum: Montag, 11. Mai 1998 05:32 > > On both my coil, and my distributor, I have the "male" connections > (although, I intend to get a new ignition controller, and a new coil, and > the coil may have a "female" connection - These are obviously non-standard > parts). I won't buy one just now, but I'll keep your message so I can > contact you when I'm ready to buy one. What air:fuel ratios can this thing > burn down to? I would like to be able to lean out my carburettor (Yes, I > have an antiquated engine, but I intend to convert it to EFI, when I have > the money, either this, or put in another engine with EFI already installed > on it). Thanks for your help. > > Danny Barrett. > > >Hi, Danny > > > >It will surely work well as long as your engine has a separate, > >exchangeable cable between coil and distributor! With your car this should > >be the case. If you can specify the type of connectors used for this cable > >on each side, I'll look if I can get a suitable one for you. All the energy > >transformation system is included around this cable. And it works > >independently from primary creation system for energy such as coil or > >voltage. It influences and works completely on the high-voltage secondary > >side of the ignition energy, because that's what makes the engine really > >run! > > > >Joachim > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 08:54:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA22134 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:54:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.17]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22130 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:54:22 -0400 Received: from centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.91]) by berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id IAA23824 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:54:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (fparker@localhost) by centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id IAA17470 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:54:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:54:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank F Parker X-Sender: fparker@centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Powder coating In-Reply-To: <199805110501.WAA11299@mailrelay.syspac.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > me wonder about powder coating. My electric lo-rider bike frame got > a quote of $50 and it was sandblasted. Thats as much as it cost to > build the bike. I gave it a coat of clear spray paint and moved on. > Bob McKnight Bob, I bought the Eastwood powder gun and it works real well. There are other sources for powder not as expensive as EW. Bought old oven for $25 for curing. You can go from rusty part to finished part, all dried and ready to install in 30 min or so. Frank Parker > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 09:44:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22842 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:44:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weblock.tm.net.my (weblock.tm.net.my [202.188.0.180]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22837 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:44:15 -0400 Received: from default ([202.188.18.217]) by weblock.tm.net.my (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 581-49008U190000L190000S0) with SMTP id AAA12804 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:43:57 +0800 From: "Michael K. H. Chan" To: Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:45:37 +0800 Message-ID: <01bd7ce3$14692f20$d912bcca@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD7D26.228C6F20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD7D26.228C6F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unsubscribe yourself (or < michaelc@tm.net.my > if specified) from the = named < diy_efi > .=20 end=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD7D26.228C6F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Unsubscribe yourself (or < michaelc@tm.net.my > if = specified) from=20 the named < diy_efi > .=20
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------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD7D26.228C6F20-- From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 09:56:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22966 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:56:46 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22962 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:56:42 -0400 Received: from bernie (janeway.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.103]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15033 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:58:34 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980511235633.007b7590@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:56:33 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. In-Reply-To: <01bd7c37$9b700fe0$1a198fd1@nacelp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 01:18 10/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >snip >> >>http://www.hsv.com.au >> >>I think you'll be impressed if you liked what you already saw :) >> >They mention Peter Brock, is that the same one who designed >the Cobra Daoytona Coupe???. >Cheers >Bruce Peter Brock is an Australian Racing Legend / Icon..... read a bit of his history on the site, and you'll find out why. Although I doubt that he is the man you are thinking of :) From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 09:57:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22988 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:57:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weblock.tm.net.my (weblock.tm.net.my [202.188.0.180]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22978 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:57:31 -0400 Received: from default ([202.188.18.217]) by weblock.tm.net.my (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 581-49008U190000L190000S0) with SMTP id AAA19460 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:56:52 +0800 From: "Michael K. H. Chan" To: Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:58:33 +0800 Message-ID: <01bd7ce4$e3330000$d912bcca@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01EF_01BD7D27.F1564000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01EF_01BD7D27.F1564000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subscribe yourself (or < michaelkhchan@hotmail.com > if specified) to = the named < diy_efi > .=20 unsubscribe < diy_efi > [< michaelkhchan@hotmail.comaddress > ]=20 end ------=_NextPart_000_01EF_01BD7D27.F1564000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subscribe yourself (or < michaelkhchan@hotmail.com = > if=20 specified) to the named < diy_efi > .=20
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------=_NextPart_000_01EF_01BD7D27.F1564000-- From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 10:02:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23114 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:02:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23109 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:02:18 -0400 Received: from bernie (janeway.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.103]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15069 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:04:12 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980512000211.007b7100@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:02:11 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 04:43 10/05/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-05-10 10:46:38 EDT, you write: > ><< > > >I know of several.... do you mean the v6 or v8 ???? > > > >I have a friend who has a VP commodore rally car.... with heaps of spares > > > >let me know what you want >> > >Can anyone tell me what displacement the V6 Holdens are? >TIA >MIke V 3.8 ltr , whatever that is in ci, i wouldn't have a clue :) From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 10:05:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23158 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:05:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23154 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:05:38 -0400 Received: from bernie (janeway.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.103]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15087 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:07:31 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980512000530.007a37e0@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:05:30 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980511013431.00678bb0@email.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 09:34 10/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >I am interested in the V8 manifold. It looks similar to the Chevy LS1, but >I am told it has twin throttle bodies. The standard holden V8 manifold has a single throttle body, in previous years twin throttle bodies have been used on the Holden Commodore touring cars, and they were used on a limited amount of production cars... From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 10:09:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23267 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:09:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23250 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:08:46 -0400 Received: from bernie (janeway.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.103]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15103 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:10:39 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980512000838.007aec10@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:08:38 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: Holdens a little info In-Reply-To: <199805110209.MAA16567@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 12:09 11/05/98 +1000, you wrote: >Actually, the normally aspirated 3L is the RB-30E, and the Turbo is the >RB-30ET. RB-30E has comp. ratio of 9:1, and the RB-30ET has comp. ratio of >7.5:1, so obviously, they have different heads. Even still, both have >problems with cracking heads, so you have to be careful not to everheat >them. Even still, I've heard of a RB-30ET getting 470 HP, and another (with >a little bit of nitrous) getting 670 HP. Not bad from a 3L engine... > > >>> a nissan 3L also (some one else will know more) >> >>The nissan is an RB-30 >> >>in both normally aspirated, and turbo configurations..... I have been informed that the heads were the same, although the VL turbo uses pistons with a deep dish... but my engine builder may be mistaken... it wouldn't be the first time :) From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 10:11:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23338 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:11:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [207.25.206.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23334 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:11:48 -0400 Received: from dilbert (pix-230.nordson.com [207.206.59.230]) by users.qual.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/CICnet/IAG) with SMTP id KAA18963 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <011801bd7ce6$43db74e0$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> From: "Gary Derian" To: Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:07:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The Mercedes direct injection engines injected onto the combustion chamber during the intake stroke. This was so there would be sufficient time to properly mix the air and fuel. They were definitly not stratified charge. The injector timing was set to end at 60 degrees after top dead center. The injector duration changed with intake vacuum but since they were mechanical, the duration remained constant in engine degrees as rpm changed. Gary Derian -> There are already some direct petrol engines on the market!!!! -> -> Mitsubishi was the first one! The have the GDI-Engine ready, it's -> sold even here in Germany at least for 6 - 7 months now! Mercedes built direct-injection automobile gasoline engines from the 1950s through the 1970s, and they weren't the first to do it. Bosch timed/metered rig, what they call sequential nowadays. Worked just fine, too. Of course, these were all mechanical rigs, not electronic. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 10:29:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23773 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:29:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23769 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:29:21 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-38.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.56]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id KAA16103 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:28:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Throttle Response Problems Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:29:58 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7ce9$469c1420$38198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: ABTSZ Subject: Throttle Response Problems >I acquired a fuel-injection sytem from an '88 Chevy Berreta 2.8 V6 (730 MAP >based system), and I put it on my Jag 4.2 straight six, using a manifold and >throttlebody from a later fuel injected Jag. The injectors are 24# Ford SVO >(the original jag injectors were 20# low impedence, and not large enough for >my modified engine.) >I eliminated everything from the harness except the MAP, TPS, water temp, air >temp, knock sensor, and DIS. I have the P\N wire grounded. >The car runs pretty well, EXCEPT for the throttle response. >Has anybody else had similar problems? Does anybody have any ideas as to what >could be causing this or any suggestions or work arounds? >TIA, >Adam > Intake tract, not restrictive enough. You'd be surprized how little the open area needs to be. On a really healthy 350 CID SBC, I wound up building a ring that was 6" in diam. that fit within .75" of the air filter lid, for it to breath thru when using a low restriction filter housing. Bigger is not always better for EFI intake tracts. Dedicated ground wire to MAP. Make sure it's not picking up RFI from a motor, or ignition source. Tubing to MAP. Mount the MAP as close as possible to the intake manifold, with the shortest, smallest cross sectional hose as possible. Make sure you don't have A+C switched at the MAP. Make sure ya got the right sensor, and not a baro.. Make sure fuel pressure changes with throttle opening. 6x24=144, or 288 HP for injector size. 4.2L. . Think ya might be too small in injector sizzin. If ya could find a larger set to borrow, and then run a lower fuel pressure. Is the calibration ya got for the ecm the same type tranny. Manual tranny might like more TPS Accleration enrichment.... What kinda K/Pa ya got at idle?. Initial timing?. Temp of thermostat... Modify IAT thru resistance, and ctc as PPF mentioned. Hope that helps Bruce From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 11:19:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24609 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:19:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from seattle.3com.com (seattle.3com.com [129.213.128.97]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24599 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:18:58 -0400 From: Gorden_Jennings@3com.com Received: from new-york.3com.com (new-york.3com.com [129.213.157.12]) by seattle.3com.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01909 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqoutbound.ops.3com.com (hqoutbound.OPS.3Com.COM [139.87.48.104]) by new-york.3com.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA23691 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by hqoutbound.ops.3com.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 88256601.00537E45 ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:11:58 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: 3COM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <88256601.005346F3.00@hqoutbound.ops.3com.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:14:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Throttle Response Problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi, Sounds like the fuel enrichment that works off the TPS is not functioning properly for this application. With the engine running ( if you can get at it ) move the TPS by hand ( move just the sensor not the throttle ) and see if the engine stumbles ( should hear the injector tick a little louder, longer pulse width ), if you do the enrichment circuit is working. May have to adjust the TPS off stock specs for this application or change some bits in the fuel enrichment mapping. Regards Gorden From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 11:26:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24843 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:26:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.wgn.net (root@mail.wgn.net [207.213.0.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24838 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:26:53 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (du485-pcap-nca01.wgn.net [207.213.6.231]) by mail.wgn.net (8.8.5-q-beta2/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA10781 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:26:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199805111526.IAA10781@mail.wgn.net> X-Sender: sganz@mail.wgn.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:29:55 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Sandy Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. In-Reply-To: <3554C4BD.66DF@tpgi.com.au> References: <01bd7a91$20423b60$4c198fd1@nacelp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Please check your mail programs, It is attaching those annoying WINMAIL.DAT, and other junk files along with the mail. Sandy From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 11:39:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25059 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:39:57 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25055 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:39:53 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA5531 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:39:53 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:40:42 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35771a72.66260656@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id LAA25056 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 11 May 1998 13:44:47 +0300, "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> wrote: >The system itself will give huge possibilities to bring down a/f-ratio, >because it changes and adapts each type of combustion process much better >to the engines' parameters. >... >By the way, DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING ABOUT A HIGH-MILEAGE CARB IN THE 30's by >Charles M. Pogue which could do 216 mpg!! > >Joachim This group just keeps on amazin me!! This is a stupendous development, Joachim. You put a passive device in between the IGN system's HV and the plug, and it "feels each cylinder" and "reshapes the energy" for optimum efficiency/performance. WOW! I'm impressed. Sheesh, well, looks like we've made the transition from our own personal automotive "crack refinery" to the group's own personal "crack pot"! Now THAT'S progress, dudes. B) Gar From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 12:52:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26298 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:52:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26294 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:52:21 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA9046 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:52:21 -0700 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:53:10 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <357a27b9.69659281@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <355ba2a1.2559718@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> In-Reply-To: <355ba2a1.2559718@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id MAA26295 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Fri, 8 May 1998 21:00:11 +0000, bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com wrote: > >5 HP High Pressure Blower 349.95 >New, features a Paxton belt driven centrifugal blower RM87(similar to >an automotive supercharger) 5 Hp TEFC two speed motor. >Specs >400 cfm 29 inches of water discharge pressure >3 1/2 inlet 3" outlet >Surplus Center >1-800-488-3407 24 hrs a day 7 days a week >1015 West "O" St. PO Box 82209 Lincoln Nebraska 68501-2209 >402-474-4055 FAX 402-474-5198 WOW, guys, I just got through researching this, and this same blower is both a current Paxton product, as well as sells for $2,325 new! They seem to be IDEAL for a flow bench blower. The downside of course is that they have 3-phase motors, but at 5HP, you wouldn't wanna have to pay the cost of a single-phase motor anywhoo. So, I took the plunge and just ordered one. Excellent find, Bob. I owe ya major brewski's for this one! The other REAL nice thang about using a single blower like this, is that the total noise is gonna be WAY less, not to mention not having to build a bloody plenum/air box to hold the multiple smaller vacuum/blower motors. NEAT! All I do is plumb the intake and exhaust lines up to the stand, for a place to hook them up to the "head adapter" and presto, flow bencho! Gar P.S. Crumbs, now I have to switch gears and look into computer controllable 3-phase motor speed controllers. (they're a tad more complicated than simple thyristor AC/DC controllers, but definitely diy'able). Sheesh, too many technologies, too little time. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 13:26:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26692 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:26:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from tmc6.astm.cmri.cmu.edu (TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.224.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26688 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:26:31 -0400 Received: by TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:27:45 -0400 Message-ID: <311B7EA14AAAD111B6AC0000C0E4A3CF02199D@TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU> From: Michael Kasimirsky To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:27:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey Gar, Can you give me some pointers on books, etc. on how to build a flow bench. I have a basic idea of how they work, but unfortunately I don't have a bench I can open up and look inside of. If you could point me to some references, I'd be most appreciative. It seems to me that they should be a relatively simple device, but I'd like something to confirm my gut feelings. And considering how much traffic there's been on the subject lately, I've got a renewed interest in the project. Also, I can give you some pointers to web pages on building a rotary phase converter to power your new 3-phase blower if you need it. On second thought, I read your P.S. and you need speed control, not just to make it run. I can't much help there. I'm an ME, not an EE. :-) Good luck with the project and keep posting results to DIY-EFI. I know I for one am very interested in what you come up with. Michael Kasimirsky From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 13:39:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26983 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:39:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from hrmse02.dhr.state.nc.us (exchange2.dhr.state.nc.us [149.168.180.67]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26979 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:39:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199805111739.NAA26979@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by exchange2.dhr.state.nc.us with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:38:57 -0400 From: Mike Hoenes To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Wanted: 90-92 TPI Eprom binary file Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:38:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Wanted: 90-92 TPI Eprom binary file from an L98 preferably an automatic for use with a 1227730 ECU. TIA. Mike ncs0879@interpath.com ---------- From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 13:45:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA27124 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:45:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from tmc6.astm.cmri.cmu.edu (TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU [128.2.224.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27119 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:45:53 -0400 Received: by TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:47:05 -0400 Message-ID: <311B7EA14AAAD111B6AC0000C0E4A3CF02199F@TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU> From: Michael Kasimirsky To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:46:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu OK everyone, I'm stupid. Sorry for the spammage to the list. I zigged when I should have zagged and ended up sending the previous message to the list instead of personal mail. My apologies. But since I spammed you all anyway, if anyone else has a book or two on flow benches that they could recommend, I'd like to hear about it. Thanks and sorry, Michael Kasimirsky From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 13:48:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA27200 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:48:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.online.de (root@mail.online.de [193.158.2.93]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27195 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:48:42 -0400 Received: from ascentia-900n(really [193.159.68.169]) by mail.online.de via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:49:04 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #2 built DST-Jun-10) Message-Id: From: "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> To: Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:53:16 +0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thank you very much for the compliments, Gar! I feel you are one of the first people to whom I ever spoke who has perfectly realised what' s going on with that ignition system! It' s an honour for me to talk with you, Gar. Joachim ---------- > Von: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com > An: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Betreff: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy > Datum: Montag, 11. Mai 1998 18:40 > > On Mon, 11 May 1998 13:44:47 +0300, "Joachim M. Wagner" > <1028-156@online.de> wrote: > > >The system itself will give huge possibilities to bring down a/f-ratio, > >because it changes and adapts each type of combustion process much better > >to the engines' parameters. > >... > >By the way, DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING ABOUT A HIGH-MILEAGE CARB IN THE 30's by > >Charles M. Pogue which could do 216 mpg!! > > > >Joachim > > This group just keeps on amazin me!! This is a stupendous development, > Joachim. You put a passive device in between the IGN system's HV and the > plug, and it "feels each cylinder" and "reshapes the energy" for optimum > efficiency/performance. WOW! I'm impressed. > > Sheesh, well, looks like we've made the transition from our own personal > automotive "crack refinery" to the group's own personal "crack pot"! Now > THAT'S progress, dudes. B) > > Gar > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 13:56:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA27369 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:56:30 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR01 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.137]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27365 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:56:29 -0400 Received: from default - 208.254.25.94 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:55:56 -0700 Message-ID: <006701bd7d06$09277ae0$5e19fed0@default> From: "H. J. Zivnak" To: Subject: Re: Ford MAF Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:54:22 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu According to Chas. Probst (Ford Fuel Injection and EEC) the vane air flow in the 1.8L is different from any other Ford VAF sensor in that the output voltage drops as air flow increases. Voltage should be 4 volts closed, aprox 0.5 volts open. He says this is similar to the early L-Jetronic. The Ford MAF (up to 93 at least) should output 0.2v idling to 1.5v max, engine running, or 0.7v key on engine off. Also, the Ford MAF runs on a hot wire temperature differential of 200 C while the Bosch differential is 100 C and the hotwire is in a bypass not centrally mounted like the Bosch. I hope this helps. Joe -----Original Message----- From: ABTSZ To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 9:32 PM Subject: Re: Ford MAF >In a message dated 98-05-04 21:03:14 EDT, you write: > ><< Attn: Ford Guys > > A friend with a 1994 Escort GT, 1.8 twin cam is looking to do some > minor modifications. The MAF is the flapper door style. It has a 7 pin > connector. We pulled the other style MAF off a plain Escort. It has a 4 > pin connector labled A B C D. Is there a way to incorporate this less > restictive MAF into the twin cam Escort setup? I think they both have the > same output, just concerned about the scaling. > Anyother tips/advice is appreciated. > > Paul Tholey > >> > >Here is a sight with alot of info on Bosch AirFlowMeters (AFMs) I think they >are identical to the ones Ford uses. Actually, I think the Ford units even >use Bosch parts #s. > >http://www.students.tut.fi/~k124775/ > >The problem is, I can't get thru to the sight at the moment. I don't know if >they are haveing temporary server problems, or are defunct. But it WAS a >great sight. >They had a chart showing the voltage to Air Flow ratio (what you are looking >for) although it would be different in different sized AFMs. The reason for >the extra pins (i think) would be the Air temp which is used as a seperate >factor in the calculation when using AFMs, whereas with MAFs, this is built in >to the 0-5v output. I am pretty sure AFMs also put out 0-5v. >Anyway, that's all I know (or think I know!) > >Adam From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 14:05:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27593 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:05:26 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27588 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:05:22 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yYx0M-0001cgC; Mon, 11 May 98 14:08 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:08:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <35771a72.66260656@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> from "garfield@pilgrimhouse.com" at May 11, 98 08:40:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > >The system itself will give huge possibilities to bring down a/f-ratio, > >because it changes and adapts each type of combustion process much better > >to the engines' parameters. > >... > >By the way, DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING ABOUT A HIGH-MILEAGE CARB IN THE 30's by > >Charles M. Pogue which could do 216 mpg!! > > This group just keeps on amazin me!! This is a stupendous development, > Joachim. You put a passive device in between the IGN system's HV and the > plug, and it "feels each cylinder" and "reshapes the energy" for optimum > efficiency/performance. WOW! I'm impressed. you forgot to mention that it reduces wear on cold starts enables you run hundereds of miles with no oil and hides scratches in the paint as well as warding off alien abduction and evil lawn weeds all without the use of saturated fats, or artificial flavours void where prohibited by law, all participants must be of legal age a skill testing question must be answered in the time alloted > Sheesh, well, looks like we've made the transition from our own personal > automotive "crack refinery" to the group's own personal "crack pot"! Now > THAT'S progress, dudes. B) somebody get the lithium Clive From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 15:04:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28861 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:04:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28856 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:04:14 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp5-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.54]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22685 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:01:42 -0400 Message-ID: <35574C4A.6DAB@huron.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:06:50 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy References: <35771a72.66260656@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > > On Mon, 11 May 1998 13:44:47 +0300, "Joachim M. Wagner" > <1028-156@online.de> wrote: > > >The system itself will give huge possibilities to bring down a/f-ratio, > >because it changes and adapts each type of combustion process much better > >to the engines' parameters. > >... > >By the way, DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING ABOUT A HIGH-MILEAGE CARB IN THE 30's by > >Charles M. Pogue which could do 216 mpg!! > > > >Joachim > > This group just keeps on amazin me!! This is a stupendous development, > Joachim. You put a passive device in between the IGN system's HV and the > plug, and it "feels each cylinder" and "reshapes the energy" for optimum > efficiency/performance. WOW! I'm impressed. > > Sheesh, well, looks like we've made the transition from our own personal > automotive "crack refinery" to the group's own personal "crack pot"! Now > THAT'S progress, dudes. B) > > Gar Gar, they've been selling these doo-dads at county fairs since about 1935. They have a spark gap in them that supposedly increases the voltage of the spark - that's one model. The other I have seen has an autotransformer in it - just like an ignition coil but a lower ratio, that is supposed to boost spark output, and a third one that supposedly gives a "shower of sparks". Don't know how that one is supposed to work, but I also saw one that used a "model T type" coil to give multiple sparks. Thought they were finally history, but it appears they just went to Europe! -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 15:06:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28902 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:06:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28898 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:06:47 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp5-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.54]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22790 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:03:12 -0400 Message-ID: <35574C8F.5269@huron.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:07:59 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. References: <01bd7a91$20423b60$4c198fd1@nacelp> <199805111526.IAA10781@mail.wgn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sandy wrote: > > Please check your mail programs, It is attaching those annoying > WINMAIL.DAT, and other junk files along with the mail. > > Sandy Who? Me? Impossible!!! send to responsible party, not the group please. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 15:14:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA29106 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:14:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29102 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:14:22 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA14827; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:14:21 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00191 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:12:36 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:12:36 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805111912.PAA00191@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980511151822.007a4100@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:18:22 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Wet Brakes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >When the driver felt the brakes begining to fade, he pressed a button on >the steering wheel so as to switch on all the pumps, a few seconds worth >of a squirt did the trick. Honestly, I don't think squirting water onto the brake rotors is the ideal solution. Someone mentioned this before... most tracks would bark loudly (if they even allow you to run) if you drop fluids on the track. Its a nice way to make a big pile-up. Also keep in mind, spraying glowing red-hot rotors with water is a good way to fracture them. Here are some other ways to cool brakes: 1. Thicker rotors. More metal, more surface area to stop the car as well as dissipate the heat. 2. Vented rotors (of course). 3. Air ducts, most race cars have duct work all over the place. 4. Caliper heat sinks, or larger calipers. 5. Brake line coolers. I saw one gent who had heat sink fins on the brake lines near the calipers. I can't say for sure if that really helped or not, but he claimed it did. This was in a dirt-style circle track car. 6. Change wheel airflow. Its fairly easy to make or purchase wheel covers that have fins, which would suck in or discharge air while the wheel rotates, like a fan. Its not as effective as a brake-oriented air-scoop, but its another solution. Hope I helped. For my mid-engine vehicle, I will be diverting some of the air coming into the radiator ducts underneath the angle mounted radiator to the rear brakes. The front will be taking air through the front fairing, like every other race car floating around. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 15:32:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00482 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:32:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00478 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:32:01 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA16311 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:30:09 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:30:59 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <3583479d.77823765@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <311B7EA14AAAD111B6AC0000C0E4A3CF02199D@TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU> In-Reply-To: <311B7EA14AAAD111B6AC0000C0E4A3CF02199D@TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id PAA00479 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 11 May 1998 13:27:42 -0400, Michael Kasimirsky wrote: >Can you give me some pointers on books, etc. on how to build a flow >bench. I have a basic idea of how they work, but unfortunately I don't >have a bench I can open up and look inside of. If you could point me to >some references, I'd be most appreciative. It seems to me that they >should be a relatively simple device, but I'd like something to confirm >my gut feelings. Hey Michael. I can just pass along to you the references I gathered from this very list, the last time there was a flurry of interest in FB's. First, there's a section in a really excellent book on porting, by the famed autolizard David Vizard, "How to Build and Modify Chevrolet Small-Block V-8 Cylinder Heads". ISBN 0-87938-547-2 He has a diagram of a diy FB, but it's not a set of plans, per se. The book's a must-have, tho. Then, a pretty good "alternate perspective" book on same subject, by John Dalton, "Practical Gas Flow". ISBN 1-899870-08-3 Also, a magazine article by Stephen Bogdan, "Go with the Flow: Build your own Flow Bench...", found in Issue #7 of Mopar Tech Special, a semi-annual magazine published by the editors of the monthly mag Mopar Action, a rag of Harris Publications, NY, NY (212) 462-9543, if you can't find it on the stands. (and no, I won't mail you a copy; just in case anyone was thinkin of askin B) Finally, there's some things to be learned about manometers, if you're gonna go the conventional style FB, that can be found at: http://www.dwyer-inst.com/ You should order their catalog. Some good info and explanations in there. And last but not least, order an Operator's Manual for the SF-300/600 Flowbench, from SuperFlow: http://www.superflow.com In the back is a wiring diagram that shows how the motors are stacked and how many are used for which model. BTW, the way I learned about Quadrant Scientific, is that in David Vizard's book, he mentions a "flow bench computer program" available from them for computing orifice sizes, flows from pressure drops across said orifices, etc. So I called them explaining my interest, and got a huge earfull from the Pres. on where QuadSci's gone since the days of that book being written ('90). Do check these guys out: http://www.quadsci.com and root about until you find their flow bench listing; it's kinda a quirky web page design, but be persistent and you'll find your way inside. Here's the trap door incase you get too frustrated. http://www.quadsci.com/products/engair/flwbnch/flwbnch.htm but a look around the whole site is worthwhile, methinks. Their benchtop 200cfm FB is VERY affordably priced, BTW, cuz it hooks to a normal PC for all it's smarts and controls; so all you buy is the blower box, with it's integral pressure & flow sensors. The motors are controlled by the PC directly. Thas all the poop I gots, dudes. That's the whole dump. Gar From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 15:48:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00661 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:48:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov (eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.18.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00657 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:48:07 -0400 From: ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV Received: from mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV (mashtun.jpl.nasa.gov [137.79.61.170]) by eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA12876 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV (5.x/SMI-SVR4+DXRs2.3+GKEs1.0) id AA08029; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:52:14 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:52:14 -0700 Message-Id: <9805111952.AA08029@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV> To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Electromotive Catalog ? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Anyone have a good phone number for electromotive, I am olling to get a catalog. paul timmerman From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 15:55:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00857 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:55:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mozart.bcit.bc.ca (aix4.bcit.bc.ca [142.232.189.164]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00853 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:55:08 -0400 Received: from Unknown (cardinal.seet.bcit.bc.ca [142.232.147.60]) by mozart.bcit.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA19784 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:53:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199805111953.MAA19784@mozart.bcit.bc.ca> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Peter Fenske" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:55:32 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Wanted: 90-92 TPI Eprom binary file Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199805111739.NAA26979@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.53/R1) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Mike Send me a another email later tonite so when I get home I can send ya the bin file if you haven't already got it. :peter > Wanted: 90-92 TPI Eprom binary file from an L98 preferably an automatic for > use with a 1227730 ECU. > TIA. > Mike > ncs0879@interpath.com > > ---------- > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 16:13:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01350 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:13:31 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from buffy.tpgi.com.au (buffy.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01346 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:13:28 -0400 Received: (from smtpd@localhost) by buffy.tpgi.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA06657 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 06:14:02 +1000 Received: from gou-ppp-072.tpgi.com.au(203.29.140.72), claiming to be "acer-p166" via SMTP by buffy.tpgi.com.au, id smtpda06642; Tue May 12 06:13:53 1998 Message-ID: <35575D3C.274D@tpgi.com.au> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:19:08 +1000 From: Justin Albury X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. References: <1.5.4.32.19980511013431.00678bb0@email.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu the holden v8 intake will NOT fit a chev!! sorry to dampin your sprits guys but it will only fit holden efi heads and thats it! justin Eileen Tholey wrote: > > I am interested in the V8 manifold. It looks similar to the Chevy LS1, but > I am told it has twin throttle bodies. > > TIA > > Paul > At 11:10 PM 5/10/98 +1000, you wrote: > >At 05:56 6/05/98 -0400, you wrote: > >>Where the h*ll can I get that K*ck *ss TPI intake in the Holdens? I am > >serious! > >> > >>Paul Tholey > > > > > >I know of several.... do you mean the v6 or v8 ???? > > > >I have a friend who has a VP commodore rally car.... with heaps of spares > > > >let me know what you want > > > > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 16:27:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01795 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:27:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01791 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:27:21 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA18661 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:27:18 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Electromotive Catalog ? Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:28:07 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <358b5f3f.83873437@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <9805111952.AA08029@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV> In-Reply-To: <9805111952.AA08029@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id QAA01792 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 11 May 1998 12:52:14 -0700, ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV wrote: >Anyone have a good phone number for electromotive, >I am olling to get a catalog. Their web page has all that and more! http://www.electromotive-inc.com From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 16:30:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02058 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:30:47 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02053 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:30:46 -0400 From: goflo@pacbell.net Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-206-170-121-218.sndg02.pacbell.net [206.170.121.218]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id NAA13996 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35575C75.2B45@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:15:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-PBXG (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensors & ION Eyes References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35565267.2EC950DC@mwt.net> <35656917.20857796@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Garfield Correction on part # MPX5010, not MPXL5010. Same sensor, different package. You might also be interested in: MPX5006 0 -.87 psi, 3% accuracy This could be useful for measuring dP across a sharp-edged orifice, which I think somebody on the list is doing. Also Pitot tube sensor apps. Thanks for the motor controller stuff - Think I'm gonna take a shot at it. Roger the tedium of flow testing! I do a lot of it. Am very interested in automating these things. > If any of yous guys can find a MAF sensor that's > available CALIBRATED, and within +-1%FS accuracy over say 300cfm Concur with your observation that repeatability is the main thing with flow testing, so I'm missing something here. Linearity perhaps? Please elaborate. Jack From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 16:42:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02484 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:42:57 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02478 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:42:53 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA19322 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:42:52 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:43:42 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <358d619f.84481171@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <35771a72.66260656@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35574C4A.6DAB@huron.net> In-Reply-To: <35574C4A.6DAB@huron.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id QAA02480 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 11 May 1998 15:06:50 -0400, Clare Snyder wrote: >Gar, they've been selling these doo-dads at county fairs since about >1935. Yup, and tickets to the freak show, as well. But just to show I'm really a scientist at heart, I DO leave open the possibility of miracles occuring; look at Viagra and Rogain! Hee. Next they'll be calling an antiprostate-enlargement drug "Niagra". Arh arh arroooo! >I also saw one that used a "model T type" coil to give multiple >sparks. Thought they were finally history, but it appears they just went >to Europe! Yeah, ya know what they say; what goes around comes around. And around, and around. Somethin bout a sucker bein born every minute. Hey, if that was true when it was coined, think of how much higher the birth rate has gone up since then! What an "opportunity". Gar From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 16:43:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02504 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:43:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.clarityconnect.com (mail.clarityconnect.com [206.64.143.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02500 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:43:07 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (206.114.169.58) by mail.clarityconnect.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon, 11 May 1998 16:45:00 -0400 Message-ID: <35578CF4.3BB5@clarityconnect.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:42:44 -0700 From: Scot Sealander X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: List Stuff (Was Whattza Holden?) References: <01bd7a91$20423b60$4c198fd1@nacelp> <199805111526.IAA10781@mail.wgn.net> <35574C8F.5269@huron.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Clare Snyder wrote: > Who? Me? Impossible!!! > send to responsible party, not the group please. Sending it to the group gets as many offenders as possible... ;-) While on the subject, could we all watch the quoting? There are some who quote an entire lenghthy message, and then include a couple line response. We all saw the original post, please be considerate and edit the response. (This also makes the archives much longer and much harder to read.) Also, please try to limit your sig files. 3 or 4 lines is plenty. Thanks, Scot Sealander Sealand@clarityconnect.com > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 16:53:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02731 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:53:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02727 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:53:41 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-13.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.31]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id QAA03566 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:52:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Electromotive Catalog ? Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:54:17 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7d1e$f68a6dc0$1f198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -----Original Message----- From: ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 4:34 PM Subject: Electromotive Catalog ? > >Anyone have a good phone number for electromotive, >I am olling to get a catalog. > >paul timmerman > Try (703) 331-0100 http://www.electromotive-inc.com Cheerio Bruce From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 16:53:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02726 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:53:41 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mailgate22.a001.sprintmail.com (mailgate22-hme0.a001.sprintmail.com [205.137.196.54]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02721 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:53:38 -0400 Received: by mailgate22.a001.sprintmail.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA11742; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:53:08 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sprintmail.com Received: from sdn-ts-008coaurop16.dialsprint.net(206.133.160.147) by mailfep1-hme1 via dsmap-1.22 id Q_10.1.1.4/Q_11982_1_35576517; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:52:39 -0700 Message-ID: <355764E4.583688D9@sprintmail.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:51:49 -0600 From: Brian Hartman Organization: Ethereal Light Metaphysical Books and Supplies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Electromotive Catalog ? References: <9805111952.AA08029@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have the Tech manual for their products and the phone number on it says, 703-331-0100 703-331-0161 Fax Hope it helps, Brian Hartman ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV wrote: > Anyone have a good phone number for electromotive, > I am olling to get a catalog. > > paul timmerman From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 16:59:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02856 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:59:03 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from se.mediaone.net (stjohns.se.mediaone.net [24.129.0.68]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02848 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:58:53 -0400 From: rotary@mediaone.net Received: from dell- ([24.129.51.96]) by se.mediaone.net (Netscape Messaging Server 3.01) with SMTP id AAA5231; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:58:51 -0400 Message-ID: <007b01bd7d1f$9a2954a0$60338118@dell-> To: , Subject: Re: Electromotive Catalog ? Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:58:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Heyu Paul >Anyone have a good phone number for electromotive, >I am olling to get a catalog. Try http://www.electromotive-inc.com/ or Electromotive, Inc. 9131 Centreville Rd. Manassas, Virginia 20110 Phone: 703-331-0100 Fax: 703-331-0161 Flyin and Racin Rotary Beasts, Carlos "Yo Quiero 20B" Iglesias RX-7 Club of Florida http://julio.simplenet.com From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 16:59:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02863 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:59:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02859 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:59:15 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-13.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.31]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id QAA05914 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:58:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:59:48 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7d1f$bbf389c0$1f198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Justin Albury Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 4:43 PM Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. >the holden v8 intake will NOT fit a chev!! >sorry to dampin your sprits guys but it will only fit holden efi heads >and thats it! > >justin > >Eileen Tholey wrote: >> Eileen is a guy?. Hmm, twice heart broken in less than a moment. Drat Bruce I'll just pull my Cone Shaped Hat further down, and slink back to lurking From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 16:59:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02857 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:59:03 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from se.mediaone.net (stjohns.se.mediaone.net [24.129.0.68]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02849 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:58:53 -0400 From: rotary@mediaone.net Received: from dell- ([24.129.51.96]) by se.mediaone.net (Netscape Messaging Server 3.01) with SMTP id AAA5231; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:58:51 -0400 Message-ID: <007b01bd7d1f$9a2954a0$60338118@dell-> To: , Subject: Re: Electromotive Catalog ? Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:58:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Heyu Paul >Anyone have a good phone number for electromotive, >I am olling to get a catalog. Try http://www.electromotive-inc.com/ or Electromotive, Inc. 9131 Centreville Rd. Manassas, Virginia 20110 Phone: 703-331-0100 Fax: 703-331-0161 Flyin and Racin Rotary Beasts, Carlos "Yo Quiero 20B" Iglesias RX-7 Club of Florida http://julio.simplenet.com From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 17:19:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03144 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:19:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ihgw2.lucent.com (ihgw2.lucent.com [207.19.48.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03133 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:18:59 -0400 Received: from emsr1.emsr.lucent.com by ihig2.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id QAA02143; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:08:35 -0500 Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id RAA25808 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu.smtp; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:18:41 -0400 From: kenkelly@lucent.com Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id RAA25766 for efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:18:39 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Received: from lucent.com (kkk) by pace10.wh.lucent.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA28348; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:12:26 -0400 Message-Id: <35576905.5A03B60E@lucent.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:09:25 -0400 Original-From: Ken Kelly Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en]C-EMS-1.3.1 (WinNT; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 Original-To: efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy References: <35771a72.66260656@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35574C4A.6DAB@huron.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sorry to say they didn't just go to Europe. They were demonstrated at the Spring 98 Englishtown, NJ & Carlisle, PA Automotive Flea markets. I have been going to the Spring & Fall shows for the last 5 years and there is always one car or pickup truck set up with a Spark enhanser. I think its the Autotransformer type. They even manage to sell them to this supposedly automotive oriented crowd!!! Ken Clare Snyder wrote: > > garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > > > > On Mon, 11 May 1998 13:44:47 +0300, "Joachim M. Wagner" > > <1028-156@online.de> wrote: > > > > >The system itself will give huge possibilities to bring down a/f-ratio, > > >because it changes and adapts each type of combustion process much better > > >to the engines' parameters. > > >... > > >By the way, DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING ABOUT A HIGH-MILEAGE CARB IN THE 30's by > > >Charles M. Pogue which could do 216 mpg!! > > > > > >Joachim > > > > This group just keeps on amazin me!! This is a stupendous development, > > Joachim. You put a passive device in between the IGN system's HV and the > > plug, and it "feels each cylinder" and "reshapes the energy" for optimum > > efficiency/performance. WOW! I'm impressed. > > > > Sheesh, well, looks like we've made the transition from our own personal > > automotive "crack refinery" to the group's own personal "crack pot"! Now > > THAT'S progress, dudes. B) > > > > Gar > > Gar, they've been selling these doo-dads at county fairs since about > 1935. They have a spark gap in them that supposedly increases the > voltage of the spark - that's one model. The other I have seen has an > autotransformer in it - just like an ignition coil but a lower ratio, > that is supposed to boost spark output, and a third one that supposedly > gives a "shower of sparks". Don't know how that one is supposed to work, > but I also saw one that used a "model T type" coil to give multiple > sparks. Thought they were finally history, but it appears they just went > to Europe! > -- > _/\_ > --|-----([])-----|-- > S 0/ \0 B > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > E-Mail service is back to normal > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > OR > Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the > spammers!!! > It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of > Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 17:21:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03230 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:21:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from f04n01.cac.psu.edu (f04a01.cac.psu.edu [146.186.15.26]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03224 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:20:56 -0400 Received: from mic (access-isdn1-5.oz.psu.edu [146.186.228.7]) by f04n01.cac.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA29522 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:20:06 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980511212457.0067d424@email.psu.edu> X-Sender: pft101@email.psu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:24:57 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Eileen Tholey Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The holden heads do not have a siamesed ports like the SBC. They look like a BBC. But how similar are these Holden V8s to the new small block II? No need to go into great lenght, just curious. Paul Tholey At 06:19 AM 5/12/98 +1000, you wrote: >the holden v8 intake will NOT fit a chev!! >sorry to dampin your sprits guys but it will only fit holden efi heads >and thats it! > >justin > >Eileen Tholey wrote: >> >> I am interested in the V8 manifold. It looks similar to the Chevy LS1, but >> I am told it has twin throttle bodies. >> >> TIA >> >> Paul >> At 11:10 PM 5/10/98 +1000, you wrote: >> >At 05:56 6/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >>Where the h*ll can I get that K*ck *ss TPI intake in the Holdens? I am >> >serious! >> >> >> >>Paul Tholey >> > >> > >> >I know of several.... do you mean the v6 or v8 ???? >> > >> >I have a friend who has a VP commodore rally car.... with heaps of spares >> > >> >let me know what you want >> > >> > >> > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 17:28:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03382 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:28:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03377 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:28:04 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA21196 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:28:04 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: List Stuff (Was Whattza Holden?) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:28:54 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35916d52.87476515@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <01bd7a91$20423b60$4c198fd1@nacelp> <199805111526.IAA10781@mail.wgn.net> <35574C8F.5269@huron.net> <35578CF4.3BB5@clarityconnect.com> In-Reply-To: <35578CF4.3BB5@clarityconnect.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id RAA03379 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 11 May 1998 16:42:44 -0700, Scot Sealander wrote: >Clare Snyder wrote: > >> Who? Me? Impossible!!! >> send to responsible party, not the group please. > >Sending it to the group gets as many offenders as possible... ;-) > >While on the subject, could we all watch the quoting? There are some who >quote an entire lenghthy message, and then include a couple line >response. We all saw the original post, please be considerate and edit >the response. (This also makes the archives much longer and much harder >to read.) Here, here. Add my squeeky voice to those who agree. PRUNE, or the garden of words becomes overgrown. Gar From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 17:40:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03545 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:40:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from fxiod02.is.chrysler.com (firewall-user@fxiod02.is.chrysler.com [204.189.94.71]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03541 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:40:23 -0400 From: jb24@chrysler.com Received: by fxiod02.is.chrysler.com; id RAA28750; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:39:19 -0400 Received: from odnpspr2-nf0.oddc.chrysler.com(129.9.202.74) by fxiod02.is.chrysler.com via smap (4.0a) id xma028691; Mon, 11 May 98 17:39:05 -0400 Received: from ODEMXPR1.ODDC.CHRYSLER.COM (odemxpr1-dgen0.oddc.chrysler.com [129.9.196.20]) by odnpspr2-nf0.oddc.chrysler.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/chrysler-relay.1.2-kcd) with SMTP id RAA26639 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ODEMXPR1.ODDC.CHRYSLER.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 2.0) with snapi via NOTES id 0041200006286344; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:39:22 -0400 To: Subject: Spark plugs/injectors Message-ID: <0041200006286344000002L042*@MHS> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:39:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu DFI works, but it is a pain to package. Good combustion chambers with four valves per cylinder plus plugs plus injector is really hard to do. Mitsubishi did it, but they still have a throttle. The only way to get rid of those pumping losses (today) is to do compression ignition (i.e. diesel). Actually, there are some 'diesels' running in the lab that run on methanol, gasoline, propane, etc. ---------------------- Forwarded by John R Bucknell/JTE/Chrysler on 05/11/98 09:57 AM --------------------------- owner-diy_efi @ efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu 05/09/98 05:30 AM Please respond to diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ SMTP To: DIY_EFI @ efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ SMTP cc: Subject: Spark plugs/injectors Does anyone know if it is possible to get spark plugs with fuel injectors built in? I have seen one of the list members write about keeping the intake pressure as close to atmospherice as possible (and varying the power/speed by the amount of fuel pumped in). There is one problem with this - It is very hard to get a reliable combustion from mixtures leaner than 18:1. There is a solution to this problem (from what my Thermodynamics textbook says). This is by charging the cylinder with a non-uniform mixture. ie: around 14.5:1 around the spark plug, and virtually nothiing elsewhere (where required). This, it has called "stratified charging." Apparently, engines have been successfully developed and run in the laboratory, but not in production cars (or at least, we've not seen them...). The book was first published in 1957, with the third edition (the edition that I have) published in 1980. I think it is fair to say that our EFI technology has advanced quite a long way since 1980. So... Why can't we build direct injection petrol engines that vary the mixture instead of the amount of air going in? Since we now have sequential fuel injection, knock sensors (even the Trionic one that we seem to hear so much about on this list - go for it gentlemen...), etc... Why can't we make a direct injection petrol engine that uses a combined spark plug/fuel injector, so that we can use stratified charging to our advantage? I reallise that there are problems associated with NOx gases produced in excess when lean mixtures are used, but isn't that what the catalytic converter is for? Also, wouldn't it be worth just a little bit more NOx in the air (yes, I know NO2 is a poison), for the sake of using far less fuel, and having less benzine rings (which can cause cancer) floating around in the air??? Or is there something I've missed? Danny Barrett. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 18:04:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03952 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:04:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03948 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:04:46 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Tue, 12 May 98 08:09:20 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D7D.13F8D320@PJARAMAZ >; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:07:59 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7D7D.13F8D320@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Wet Brakes Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:07:42 +1000 Encoding: 27 TEXT, 47 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi All, ---------- From: Frederic Breitwieser Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 8:18 AM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Wet Brakes >When the driver felt the brakes begining to fade, he pressed a button on >the steering wheel so as to switch on all the pumps, a few seconds worth >of a squirt did the trick. Honestly, I don't think squirting water onto the brake rotors is the ideal solution. Someone mentioned this before... most tracks would bark loudly (if they even allow you to run) if you drop fluids on the track. Its a nice way to make a big pile-up. Also keep in mind, spraying glowing red-hot rotors with water is a good way to fracture them. The local 5Litre touring cars use water sprayed on the discs to cool the brakes. Massive discs and 6 pot calipers - you need that for 300kmh :-) Peter (Finally worked out how to stop winmail.dat with Bill's Pot-O-S#!t Emailer prog) begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(CL6`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M``@0`0```&4```!(24%,3"PM+2TM+2TM+2TM1E)/33I& M4D5$15))0T)214E45TE%4T524T5.5#I454531$%9+$U!63$R+#$Y.3@X.C$X M04U43SI$25E%1DE 0T]53$]-0D5.1T](24\M4U1!5$5%``````(!"1 !```` MY ,``. #``"+!@``3%I&=#(U-0* "H$-L0M@ M;O!G,3 S%" +"A+R# $B8P! ($AI$W!L; 8L"H4*BVQI,3@PP0+1:2TQ-#0- M\ S0LQTS"UDQ-@J@`V!T!9!]!4 M'U<*AQX+## >UD;]`V$Z(%X>U@R"(>$) M@ 9QR&,@0A8`:70#\ >0?P20'_\A#09@`C B/R-+5,$*4'-D87DL!= IP @@ M,3(IX#$Y.3C8(#@Z'+ 3<$TE7R$-#%1O)Y\C2V1I>5]I# ],#I@!^ 1\*D%H&YD!"!W%:%H/>:$;V8](7-Q=6D`()0=&PIT4DO,.T"("\%P (A/ `ZMR >X06P M!"#W! `YHT0P90= "H4_D I LT>P`B N( 8``W!E1?'^( > `C!+03T!1P$[ M0@(0[18`+DUP3!!O,-!$D0#0[FM"!S'M IP#NR9^=0\3NR%@$M:![P249 ,<] <$@$ M2<$],&=O!'!5$G<*A3OR3A%T"'!$@3EP;6]$]AEO&G5=U50YP1608_$'0" U M3"3075((8CO!^V"029%U$?!']5C3/0%3)?\O0 3P/],%H ;P.JE+<"H`WP00 M.A%CE0!P/1 V/*!:,>]@D04@!) $("U1(T8`3).7,/ Z4 6Q,QS0:VU <&@Z M+2DV7% 2`"4W*/Y&"X! P2H@0I$V(&,1/6#_/'!1`3_R._!2D%F1`, #$"XN M*; %0%K30@,0;"<%!"!0'O M3RU3([HA!4!%;0(Z,1[19VDF?S<_.$]OWQW7 M&C5Q[14A``%UH ,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ```#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``RI-] ` end From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 18:07:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04048 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:07:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov (eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.18.40]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04044 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:07:41 -0400 From: ptimmerm@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV Received: from mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV (mashtun.jpl.nasa.gov [137.79.61.170]) by eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA08277 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV (5.x/SMI-SVR4+DXRs2.3+GKEs1.0) id AA08108; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:11:49 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:11:49 -0700 Message-Id: <9805112211.AA08108@mashtun.JPL.NASA.GOV> To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: EM TEC-II for VATN? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Thanks to all for the quick info on electromotive. I am purchASING A car with a Tec-II and hope to start messing with it a bit, like adding a race gas program, checking performance at altitude up to 8000 ft. and looking into switching the VATN controller from a boost/spring type to a electronic controlled version. Anyone know how the general purpose output works? Is is a pulse width modulation scheme? Can I use it to control my VATN turbo? Anyone been down this road before? paul timmerman From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 18:18:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04344 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:18:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from f04n01.cac.psu.edu (f04a01.cac.psu.edu [146.186.15.26]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04339 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:18:13 -0400 Received: from mic (access-isdn1-5.oz.psu.edu [146.186.228.7]) by f04n01.cac.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA17394 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:17:23 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980511222215.0066fc78@email.psu.edu> X-Sender: pft101@email.psu.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:22:15 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Eileen Tholey Subject: Re: Grand National engine question Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The two computers I have that may work in you situation are the 16132792 or the 1227727. I think they are wothe $50 each if that is your next question. If I can be of oany other help, let me know. Paul Tholey At 09:53 AM 5/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >I think that I can get a buick grand national engine <3.8 turbo> for >great price. The only problem is that the computer and wiring harness >have been trashed. The original car now has 350 chevy with a holley 4 >bbl. Does anyone have a suitable computer and harness available? Any >sugestions? >dave balfour > > > From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 18:18:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04364 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:18:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04360 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:18:34 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA23289 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:18:34 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensors & ION Eyes Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:19:24 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35926dbf.87585234@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35565267.2EC950DC@mwt.net> <35656917.20857796@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35575C75.2B45@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <35575C75.2B45@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id SAA04361 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 11 May 1998 13:15:49 -0700, goflo@pacbell.net wrote: >MPX5006 0 -.87 psi, 3% accuracy Yeah, I saw that one too. Might do to have two of them, 5010 & 5006, to switch between, depending on where in the larger range of pressure, you were operating in. At the cost of these gizmo's, it's not wasteful to use BOTH together, one at the high end, the other at the low. Since it's common for eXperimenters like ourselves to work around either 10, 15, 20, or 25" H2O, having both sensors available seems like a nice fit of ranges. >This could be useful for measuring dP across a sharp-edged orifice, >which I think somebody on the list is doing. Also Pitot tube sensor >apps. Yeah, I think you're right. I thot SteveG (or someone!; I'm losing it here), was gonna use these instead of fluid manometers in their otherwise std orifice-based FB. That's a good point about Pitot tube apps too, I hadn't actually considered that until you mentioned it. Hmm, airspeed indicators!! Angle-of-attack indicators. Lot's of possibilities. >Thanks for the motor controller stuff - Think I'm gonna take a shot >at it. Roger the tedium of flow testing! I do a lot of it. Am very >interested in automating these things. Lemme know if I can help on your "thyristor" controller end. I'm gonna be driftin over to speed-controlling this whopper 3-phase AC Paxton blower I just ordered, but I'd like to help out to cover BOTH bases, if you need a hand. I'm at your service in the cause of FB science. B) >> If any of yous guys can find a MAF sensor that's >> available CALIBRATED, and within +-1%FS accuracy over say 300cfm > >Concur with your observation that repeatability is the main thing with >flow testing, so I'm missing something here. Linearity perhaps? >Please elaborate. Nah, yer not missin a thang; the ONLY reason I was interested in ACCURACY rather than simple repeatability, is that sometimes you're dealing with devices like manifolds, carbs, etc. that are supposedly rated for a particular cfm & water-drop. And so I'd like to be able to check these ratings out, as well as maybe spec to precise numbers my own stuff, so they can be compared to OTHER people's results. Repeatability is fine as long as you're working on that very same bench all the time, but if you wanna exchange stuff with other people, and compare notes, you also need ACCURACY. I agree, it's right to consider it a second-order effect, but it's a nice "second". But to be honest, I'd think that still the 3-5% accuracy of these present devices is adequate for my needs, so I'll settle for 3-5% if I can't get 1% at the moment. Just wait a year or so, and they'll be at 1% accuracy anyway! B) Cheers, Gar From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 18:31:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04789 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:31:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from rtmol.stt.it ([193.70.50.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04785 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:31:38 -0400 From: fpalumbo@rtmol.it Received: from default (ppp-12.rtmol.stt.it [193.70.50.42]) by rtmol.stt.it (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25219 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:31:34 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980512004521.006c4000@mail.rtmol.it> X-Sender: fpalumbo@mail.rtmol.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:45:21 +0200 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Please, I need information about the OBD2 Protocol for european Cars. Someone Knows were can I find Technical Informations ? Any Information would be appreciated. Thanks. Fabrizio Palumbo. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 18:40:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05001 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:40:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04997 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:40:24 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Tue, 12 May 98 08:42:32 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7D81.B57C0920@PJARAMAZ >; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:41:08 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7D81.B57C0920@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Whattza Holden?. Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:41:06 +1000 Encoding: 28 TEXT, 44 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi all, For info on the Commodore and hence engines (inc the 304 and the V8 3800) http://www.uq.net.au/~zznweber/commodore.html You may need to go deon a few pages but there's a lot of good info and pics. Peter ---------- From: Eileen Tholey Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 7:24 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. The holden heads do not have a siamesed ports like the SBC. They look like a BBC. But how similar are these Holden V8s to the new small block II? No need to go into great lenght, just curious. Paul Tholey At 06:19 AM 5/12/98 +1000, you wrote: >the holden v8 intake will NOT fit a chev!! >sorry to dampin your sprits guys but it will only fit holden efi heads >and thats it! > >justin begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@@6`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\MF$@2&]L9&5N/RX` M`````@%Q``$````6`````;U]+>*RF(K?#^EM$=&^NP! !5\J;P``'@`># $` M```%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!D```!P:F%R86UA>D!I;F=E;FEC;RYC M;VTN874``````P`&$"AMK @#``<000(``!X`"! !````90```$A)04Q,+$9/ M4DE.1D]/3E1(14-/34U/1$]214%.1$A%3D-%14Y'24Y%4RA)3D-42$4S,#1! M3D142$56.#,X,# I2%144#HO+U=75U513D54054O6EI.5T5"15(O0T]-34]$ M3U(``````@$)$ $```!5`P``40,``,$%``!,6D9U/):21?\`"@$/`A4"I /D M!>L"@P!0$P-4`@!C: K #$T- WP#- M(PM9,:XV"J # M8"L08P5 +2]'KPJ'+?L,,"[&1@-A.C!.,R[&#((@10,0">$@5/)H!O!E>2_O M,/T&8 (P2S(O,SM4"E!S9"6@+!,%T"6A,3(Y8#$Y.9$@4#3)?#<2YO:&EO+7-G`9 K$#^@9'4ZSS7N M=9QB:B\!/.\S.U)E0T#65Q' `D!Z)M!(!O -L,QN/RH-+"8S-BW'%"(_# $\ M1QT!-(%&$1X!861?!" =@"7 *($1P'8=L2#M`)!A!X$E\7 5H00@+( &:QT0 M'/)30D,N(.=)4B6P%9!O:TPS"H4FT'I"3.-")Z$T@ ?@`)!M_P,03E(=H1SQ M$?!%U2 Q!"#_)B$<\AZP3V$`P!L@)X 5D")C3;!)23]-$$YO_PJ%)=D+@"8B M%@! 8"A@'G&3(: Y8&IU0$ @8PAQOPA@*?\BP ,@-'L*A4$%0!@P-CHZ`#J1 M(#4O=3G +SHA*QD@() Y8'G5)6%W+M(Z"H4^'/))I79V(%!446%,80/P4C%. M=$]4)N!I!4 FT!&P9:AV(2%;%G,%L'(EL'LF(3DP;2G `Z!:<07 <\`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``!5A] ` end From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 19:07:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05377 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:07:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from fh102.infi.net ([208.131.160.101]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05372 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:07:11 -0400 Received: from jsnorman (pm1-41.tlh.infi.net [206.31.107.41]) by fh102.infi.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA25980 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <355784FD.7EC5@tdo.infi.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:08:45 -0400 From: Joseph Norman Organization: InfiNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-SurferKit (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Wet Brakes References: <3.0.5.32.19980511151822.007a4100@xephic.dynip.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Honestly, I don't think squirting water onto the brake rotors is the ideal > solution. Someone mentioned this before... most tracks would bark loudly > (if they even allow you to run) if you drop fluids on the track. Its a > nice way to make a big pile-up. > > Also keep in mind, spraying glowing red-hot rotors with water is a good way > to fracture them. > Hi, I'm normally a lurker here (I'm a mechanical engineer-just trying to pick up some info on electronics, etc.), but I have to comment on water cooling the brakes. Last year I worked as a mechanic for Tom Gloy Racing on Dorsey Schroeder's SCCA Trans-Am Mustang. We used water brakes at all of the heavy braking tracks. There was an aluminum tank mounted at the rear (about 4 gallon capacity) with a small pump attached to it. tubes carried the water to four nozzles, two in each of the hoses for the front brake ducts- they were about 24" before the rotor. There was a switch on the dash which we would remind the driver to turn on on the pace lap. They would stay on the entire race, except for during full course yellows. The 4 gallons would last the entire hour or so of the race - it was a pretty fine mist. I wouldn't dump a lot of water on the brakes after they have gotten really hot - you could get thermal shock and break the rotors - but a steady mist sure worked for us. Later, Joe Norman From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 19:09:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05441 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:09:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from uq.net.au (root@fox.uq.net.au [203.101.255.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05436 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:09:32 -0400 Received: from localhost (zzchack@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uq.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA31888 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:09:25 +1000 (GMT+1000) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:09:25 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: Christian David Hack To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Holdens a little info Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I own a VL turbo with the RB30ET engine and auto trans. As far as I know, the heads are the same except that the turbo head has a red crinkle finish to distinguish it from the NA engine. The pistons are definitely different. Essentially, these are the differences: turbo (about 6-7psi) and new exhaust manifold lower comp pistons bigger oil pump slightly different intake runners addition of a knock sensor (which is known to cause problems) slightly different engine-management system upgraded gearboxes and diffs (both manual and auto) larger brakes larger exhaust (2 1/2 instead of 2 1/4) and of course that crinkle red covered head. Unfortunately no intercooler. After I have hacked the engine management to bits I will be installing either and intercooler or water injection. I asked a while ago if any has any info on the engine management and I didn't really receive any replies. I know have a complete disassembly of the code and using some of the very ordinary graphs in the service manual I have been able to find some of the 2D and 3D tables in the EPROM. I have a working idea/schematic on a snooper to watch the ECCS while the engine is running which I should be able to build in the next few weeks. I'll ask again if anyone has any info or know where I can get info on the ECCS. Nissans groovy name is Electronic Combustion Control System I think. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 19:48:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06126 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:48:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06121 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:48:22 -0400 Received: from AJLegere@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8JFVa18945 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:46:01 -0400 (EDT) From: AJLegere Message-ID: <26ff35eb.35578dba@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:46:01 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Engine Simulation SW - shareware Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_894930361_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_894930361_boundary Content-ID: <0_894930361@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Try this Shareware Torbo calculator I found on a UK turbo manufacturer site. It's not the best but does offer some estimating capabilities. 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cGQLFBYCAAACBQAACgAAAAAAAAABACAAAAAAAAAAUkVBRE1FLlRYVFBLAQIUABQAAAAIADuK MiTYB6UZzBUAAABeAAAKAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAAAD4CAABULUNBTEMuRVhFUEsFBgAAAAACAAIA cAAAADIYAAAAAA== --part0_894930361_boundary-- From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 20:03:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06326 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:03:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.159]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06322 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:03:14 -0400 Received: from default - 153.34.110.249 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:02:41 -0700 Message-ID: <002e01bd7d39$7db71400$f96e2299@default> From: "David" To: Subject: Re: EFI Books Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:16:03 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I just saw a new FI book at the St. Louis Library. It is by Ben Watson. It is titled How to Tune and Modify CHEVROLET Fuel Injection. It was published very recently by Motorbooks. It appears to be a pretty good book. I scanned in the table of contents. Hope this helps. CONTENTS Introduction -- The Performance Revival Chapter One -- The History of Fuel Injection Chapter Two --The Basics of Electronics Chapter Three Tools and Equipment Chapter Four -- How Chevrolet Fuel Injection Works Chapter Five -- Automotive Emissions And The Law Chapter Six -- Fuel Injection Tuning Chapter Seven -- Fuel Injection Troubleshooting Chapter Eight -- Onboard Diagnostic Trouble Codes Chapter Nine -- How To Use Fault Codes Chapter Ten -- Troubleshooting Fault Codes Chapter Eleven -- Fuel Injection Performance Modifications Chapter Twelve -- Engine Modifications and The Law Chapter Thirteen -- Aftermarket Fuel-Injection Systems Chapter Fourteen -- On-Board Diagnostic System Generation 2 Appendix Sources Index David -----Original Message----- From: Charles Taylor-iii To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 11:21 PM Subject: EFI Books |Wondering if anyone could refer me to some good books on EFI? |Lookinf for books for the beginner up to design. Looking for books that |explain how different types of fuel injection work and how to control |them. Any titles would be appreciated. Thanks. | |Chuck Taylor |chtaylor@eng.usf.edu |*******************************'84 Kawasaki 900 Ninja |* University of South Florida * 7.21 @ 96.37 1/8th mile |* Mechanical Engineering Dept * 11.37 @ 117.27 1/4 mile |* (7 months and counting) *'80 Kawasaki Z1-R 1000 |******************************* Restoration project | | From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 20:23:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06596 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:23:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.36]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06592 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:23:06 -0400 Received: from AJLegere@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8ZRDa15161 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:21:55 +2000 (EDT) From: AJLegere Message-ID: <3b0f2f74.35579624@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:21:55 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: EFI Books Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The Ben Watson one is great, try this one as well: http://www.centechwire.com/catalog/accessories/manuals.html AJL From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 21:21:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07338 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:21:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07334 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:21:07 -0400 From: goflo@pacbell.net Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-207-215-148-80.sndg02.pacbell.net [207.215.148.80]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id SAA12845 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <355763A0.3E8B@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:46:24 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-PBXG (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench References: <311B7EA14AAAD111B6AC0000C0E4A3CF02199F@TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Michael Kasimirsky wrote: > But since I spammed you all anyway, if anyone else has a book or two on > flow benches that they could recommend, I'd like to hear about it. > Thanks and sorry, What spam? Not well-structured enough. SuperFlow used to sell the manuals for their benches separately. When I was considering buying a SF-600 I bought the manual first - It's very interesting. About $20 US some years ago. "How To Build & Modify Chevrolet Small-Block Cylinder Heads" by David Vizard (amazon.com, $16) is good stuff about chevys and flow benches. And well-structured. Jack From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 21:33:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07450 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:33:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mbox.ualr.edu (mbox.ualr.edu [144.167.10.38]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07446 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:33:00 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #15587) id <01IWX53ERQDC0000A1@UALR.EDU>; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:32:54 CDT Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 07:34:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-id: <476018.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-to: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu -> actually the Holden 308 V8 has some very close similarities to the -> small block chev... the 350 Chev crankshaft is used in the 308 to -> stroke it to around 383 ci. -> -> do you think a Chev crank would bolt into an aussie designed engine ? -> hmmm Actually, yes. The Chevy crank has also been swapped into the Rover V8, though it requires considerable machine work. The Toyota 22R crank is sometimes used in the 2300 Ford. Other than being a pushrod 90 degree V motor, the Holden isn't much like a Chevy at all. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 21:37:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07528 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:37:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07524 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:37:48 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id VAA15161; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:37:47 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAB00191 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:36:09 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:36:09 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805120136.VAB00191@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980511214103.007ae250@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:41:03 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: RE: Wet Brakes In-Reply-To: <01BD7D7D.13F8D320@PJARAMAZ > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Peter >(Finally worked out how to stop winmail.dat with Bill's Pot-O-S#!t Emailer >prog) >M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ I see that Peter. :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 21:42:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07623 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:42:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07618 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:42:20 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-30.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.48]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id VAA19253 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:41:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Wet Brakes Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:42:56 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7d47$497fbc60$30198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Joseph Norman Subject: Re: Wet Brakes Last year I worked as a mechanic for Tom Gloy >Racing on Dorsey Schroeder's SCCA Trans-Am Mustang. Glad to have ya lurking here, feel free to inform us of any of their winning ways, hehe. Cheers Bruce Greatest form of flattery is when people slide on their backs to see under your car.... AND that means taking your Cone Shaped Hat off, From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 21:53:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07882 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:53:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07876 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:53:49 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp12-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.61]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA08159 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:50:53 -0400 Message-ID: <3557AC2E.1949@huron.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:55:58 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Wet Brakes References: <01BD7D7D.13F8D320@PJARAMAZ > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Peter Jaramaz wrote: > > Hi All, > > ---------- > From: Frederic Breitwieser > Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 8:18 AM > To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Wet Brakes > > >When the driver felt the brakes begining to fade, he pressed a button on > >the steering wheel so as to switch on all the pumps, a few seconds worth > >of a squirt did the trick. > > Honestly, I don't think squirting water onto the brake rotors is the ideal solution. > In my rallying days I saw a few sets of rotors disintegrate upon hitting a pool of icy water at the end (well, it WAS the end after he hit it;}) of a long hard braking incident. Mini Cooper, Datsun 510, Peugot, and Sunbeam or Simca - can't remember which. Not a real good idea, although a gentle spray would NOT be as disasterous as the ice bath!! -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 22:04:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08118 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:04:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08113 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:04:17 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA2042 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:04:17 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:05:05 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35a2ac3e.103584468@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <311B7EA14AAAD111B6AC0000C0E4A3CF02199F@TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU> <355763A0.3E8B@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <355763A0.3E8B@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id WAA08114 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 11 May 1998 13:46:24 -0700, goflo@pacbell.net wrote: >Michael Kasimirsky wrote: >> But since I spammed you all anyway ... >> Thanks and sorry, > >What spam? Not well-structured enough. Ahh, there you have it Michael; your post wasn't well-structured enough to qualify for spam, so not to worry. End of story. B) Jack's so subtle, ain't he. Hee hee. >SuperFlow used to sell the manuals for their benches separately. When >I was considering buying a SF-600 I bought the manual first - It's >very interesting. About $20 US some years ago. >"How To Build & Modify Chevrolet Small-Block Cylinder Heads" by David >Vizard (amazon.com, $16) is good stuff about chevys and flow benches. >And well-structured. Alright, yet another confirming recommend for the Lizard's book! SuperFlow does still sell their manuals, BTW, so give it a try. Think up a nice story for why you need such a manual, should the drone you talk to decide to get "pickyune" with ya. But they're still in the $20s of buckaroos. Worthwhile for the researcher. Yeah, the Lizard's book is definitely "well-structured", and if reprinted in it's entirety on the list, would definitely qualify as SPAM. Hee hee. Gar From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 22:32:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08834 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:32:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08830 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:32:16 -0400 Received: from AJLegere@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8ZMRa03032 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:31:42 +2000 (EDT) From: AJLegere Message-ID: <691e4e04.3557b48f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:31:42 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: EFI Books & WWW Site Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Also found www site that has lots of info, try this: http://www.cybernet.dk/users/nez/Othrlink.htm From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 22:54:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09153 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:54:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.arlec.com.au (mail.arlec.com.au [203.36.152.195]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09148 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:54:18 -0400 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Tue, 12 May 1998 13:48:16 +1000 Received: by mail.arlec.com.au from default (192.1.8.200::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.6); Tue, 12 May 1998 13:48:15 +1000 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:48:18 +0800 Message-ID: <01BD7DA4.3CD8ED80.dzorde@soanar.com.au> From: Dan Zorde To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Wet Brakes Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:48:17 +0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 15 TEXT, 74 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I thought it was just the calipers you sprayed, as suddenly cooling red hot disks can cause them to crack or warp. Dan dzorde@soanar.com.au -----Original Message----- From: Peter Jaramaz [SMTP:pjaramaz@ingenico.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 1998 6:08 AM To: 'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Subject: RE: Wet Brakes The local 5Litre touring cars use water sprayed on the discs to cool the brakes. Massive discs and 6 pot calipers - you need that for 300kmh :-) begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(A($`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`$ (```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````(!]U\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````#`/U?`0````,`_U\``````@'V#P$````$`````````NEX`02 M`0`/````4D4Z(%=E="!"# $````%```` M4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!4```!D>F]R9&5 Y&_0GXK\F3RH?*=TI7R>/*U0Y#E ?+J0P`2@C M, `"@G-T>6IL!Y!H">!T```#\&088W1L"K$`8&1J=7,Q< 409V@%0A8R# %C MAPG ,D #,'-N97@7,"\'L 6P`, "@%QV")!W:_T+@&1F`'GB!/ '0!!A`4#?#@!K M(CP">T4"$&\%0A!Y,%Q_ID7K`, #$"Y(<'1W$!<0 MD)=BA#^8SYG?AKPH`/^7;YSOG?^?#X.P<@";[Z%_?Z*/HY0*^0,PW!)('1H"&"J4DK (/]H4 0@J?*KH1. >M$%(%V!M"!Y"& @;(!+P'D)@.0L M(*QQM #H'K0J@`3@#.L M\7YP=&^M($O 8VOF( 6Q:%%P+@J%"H6H5'NI'ZHE>U3@"Y !D;! >KL%L $` M0']0`' *P"X%H/QM+DM0LK^SPV(PIE*T'X^U)#04-. 2\F)K;;" .:5R(%]V MP ,05.%A??HMO')/JC$+@ = != 'D/E$$&=EO'.S*ZBV7GUIX/]J;VM_8:]B MOV//9-]EZ+IGFU.SM;-0%R $D"!*2[$!`,!Z(%M33510Z#IP:LD40#H1"? - MX/IOMM5=OA^_)&E[P%_!;_]L;ZIO@P$,,+J%!F ",,A$RQHBNI14"E!S9*XP MKG G#B!VL=12.3G%L#8Z\6G0($%-LR;2"501TPV2)SPP>5\!$&E V&$)#[ R M+@GP9RYO:#AI;RVE854`V0!D=9XGU<_2D51ETPU215/PLE<7("!"2\!$8'/+ M?Y^H\KBOT&^J^-I(8V9;)8_3T:T!"0!ZT2 U3$K _QKPL9$(<3Q1>M"MD;$2 M:%#_R,*N!;(@`Z"L\K!12C"QD^^O8:SCSI#=@BYVL0002N+'YI0`<#1@-B!P M?(&M-[]3D*W"-*"OX:NP5/ @>+&/2;#%(+M 3" Z+2FW3W^X56H]N:^ZNGA! 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M`````````!X`)X (( 8``````, ```````!&`````#B%```!`````0`````` @```>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``9=.% ` end From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 22:55:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09184 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:55:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09180 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:55:29 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Tue, 12 May 98 12:59:40 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7DA5.A0621420@PJARAMAZ >; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:58:15 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7DA5.A0621420@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Wet Brakes Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:58:13 +1000 Encoding: 31 TEXT, 42 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hows it this time - believe me, short of editing the DLLs I'm outta options :-{ PJ ---------- From: Frederic Breitwieser Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 2:41 PM To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: Wet Brakes >Peter >(Finally worked out how to stop winmail.dat with Bill's Pot-O-S#!t Emailer >prog) >M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ I see that Peter. :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@\"`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M``@0`0```&4```!(3U=325142$E35$E-12U"14Q)159% M344L4TA/4E1/1D5$251)3D=42$5$3$Q324U/551404]05$E/3E,Z+5!*+2TM M+2TM+2TM+4923TTZ1E)%1$5224-"4D5)5%=)15-%4E-%``````(!"1 !```` M"P,```<#```Z!0``3%I&=:X$U S_``H!#P(5`J0#Y 7K`H,`4!,#5 (`8V@* MP'-E=.XR!@`&PP*#,@/&!Q,"@[HS$PU]"H (SPG9.Q7_>#(U-0* "H$-L0M@ M;O!G,3 S%" +"A+R# %"8P! ($AO=P0@:3D%0'1H! `;4 =Q("W0(&)E; B0 M=AO@!X 0+"!S:!6A(&]F;B )@!LP"X!G&U$;X$1$3$P$($DG;1TP=6T"0&$= M, 4P:0(@!" ZF"U<>PJ%"H502A_L(PKT'$ Q-#0"T6DMSR)##- B0PM9,38* MH -@]G0%D 5 +23G"HT -P M)(!I''$[@%9B`) DD#H\E6@"0'"0.B\O=U/ +GA/4)4;<&-"$'D#`' N!:"L M;2\?[# 1,SCA< 20]Q&R3T! @$P+@!5Q`Z (4)\", N +/$'0%6'.#D:T/!- M35=6/)4!T%G03=#2=4VP:RU#('<$D$!Q`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``NCU] ` end From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 23:06:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09468 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:06:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09463 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:06:38 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-30.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.48]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id XAA03321 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:05:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Group O2 Hondo Sensors Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:07:17 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7d53$12170ce0$30198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Think I might have found a second cousins friend's brother in law's drinkin buddy that might know a guy who works in a parts dept. Honda.. Now to get a price, I need a rough count of those really likely to buy, and maybes. Ain't for nothing but gettin the price. Once I found out how many, then he'll figure a for sure, and a maybe price, and then I'll ask for names, and money. If your inna hurry look elsewhere this will go in on a routine monthy order, to get the biggest discount, possible. It will be a money order deal only, and no I ain't makin a penny on it. It will be cost +tax, +envelope,+ shipping period. An invoice will be included if ya want it. Nothing will happen till all the money is here, I can't afford to front this deal. Don't go blowin smoke, on this. The more accurate the count, the quicker this will happen. If ya ain't sure don't bother e-mailing me.. Don't tie up the list with this stuff e-mail me. I'm not gonna venture a quess on price, till I get a head count. Bruce nacelp@bright.net From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 23:09:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09533 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:09:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09528 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:09:22 -0400 From: goflo@pacbell.net Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-207-104-100-163.sndg02.pacbell.net [207.104.100.163]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id UAA25994 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3557BCD9.5F1A@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:07:05 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-PBXG (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensors & ION Eyes References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35565267.2EC950DC@mwt.net> <35656917.20857796@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35575C75.2B45@pacbell.net> <35926dbf.87585234@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Garfield I'll be taking you up on the speed controller assistance. Thanks. Need to decide whether to go with what I've got or just build a bench from scratch. I'm taken with this Paxton blower notion - Really sounds like a winner. A/C motor controls are outside my hack so I'm all ears for your scheme. Lemme run this by you: Re pitot tubes - How 'bout sensing "static" pressure in a duct of known dimension and velocity with a pitot tube. If you know both then flow is straightforward computation. High quality pitot tubes are relatively cheap (Dwyer). A range of duct diameters is possible if necessary. Comment? Not to beat accuracy/repeatability to death, but I've found in component testing that what you've got hung on the piece under test (manifold, air straightener, whatever) makes way more than a couple of per cent difference - I doubt it'll surprise you that a lot of the "big" numbers you hear about are obtained with very "unrealistic" test set-ups, to put it kindly. I once had the honor of being abused by Ken Sperrling (Air Flow Research) for having the temerity to test one of his creations (for a customer), creating a certain amount of heartburn thereby. We all got over it, but the point is that hokey data and flow bench are synonyms unless you're determined ... Hope this is of some use. Jack From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 23:15:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09720 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:15:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09716 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:15:49 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp20-ts1-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.69]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA11891 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:13:20 -0400 Message-ID: <3557BF94.22CA@huron.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:18:44 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: 2 stroke injection References: <01BD7D81.B57C0920@PJARAMAZ > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Anybody ever tried mechanical injection, like a diesel pump, on a 2 stroke gas engine?Figure the oil in the mix would handle lubrication OK - but would it work? Not talking direct injection, just port, timed injection on a V4 Evinrude.Pressure reduced from doozle pressure, and injection volume determined strictly by throttle opening, with possible manual mixture control. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 23:38:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10267 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:38:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.users.bit-net.com ([208.146.132.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10263 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:38:05 -0400 Received: from localhost by mail.users.bit-net.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/30Jul96-0143PM) id AA11830; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:38:05 -0400 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:38:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Jody Shapiro To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer In-Reply-To: <3554637C.186B087F@lucent.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sat, 9 May 1998 kenkelly@lucent.com wrote: > 1) Has anyone found a shareware or reasonably priced software package to > reprogram the 94 & up GM EEProm ECM's. Steve Cole of The Turbo Shop sells his Mastertune software that will do reprograms of those PCM's. Not sure if you'll need the Pro version, though ($3700)... :/ -Jody -- 97 Blue Vortech Z28 - Best ET: 13.100 Best MPH: 111.24 (Goodyear RS-A's) 361 rear-wheel hp @ 6000rpm, 359 rear-wheel ft-lbs @ 4400rpm http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 23:45:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10451 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:45:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10443 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:45:04 -0400 Received: from main (alaint@ppp132.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.132]) by mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA14555; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:42:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Alain Toussaint X-Sender: alaint@main To: Peter Jaramaz cc: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Wet Brakes In-Reply-To: <01BD7DA5.A0621420@PJARAMAZ > Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Hows it this time - believe me, short of editing the DLLs I'm outta options :-{ > > PJ change mailer (you're using MS exchange,right ??) some member here are using MS outlook and they got it right (ya can even use netscape mail prog.,pegasus or eudora) Alain > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT > M>)\^(@\"`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` > M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 23:46:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10522 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:46:30 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10515 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:46:25 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp35.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.165]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA24453 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:46:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3557C3CA.1E8284EF@mwt.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:36:43 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <355ba2a1.2559718@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <357a27b9.69659281@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Heard you can convert 3 phase motors in to steppers . That may be the ticket. Never tried this but it may work. Steve garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > On Fri, 8 May 1998 21:00:11 +0000, bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com > wrote: > > > >5 HP High Pressure Blower 349.95 > >New, features a Paxton belt driven centrifugal blower RM87(similar to > > >an automotive supercharger) 5 Hp TEFC two speed motor. > >Specs > >400 cfm 29 inches of water discharge pressure > >3 1/2 inlet 3" outlet > > >Surplus Center > >1-800-488-3407 24 hrs a day 7 days a week > >1015 West "O" St. PO Box 82209 Lincoln Nebraska 68501-2209 > >402-474-4055 FAX 402-474-5198 > > WOW, guys, I just got through researching this, and this same blower > is > both a current Paxton product, as well as sells for $2,325 new! They > seem to be IDEAL for a flow bench blower. The downside of course is > that > they have 3-phase motors, but at 5HP, you wouldn't wanna have to pay > the > cost of a single-phase motor anywhoo. So, I took the plunge and just > ordered one. Excellent find, Bob. I owe ya major brewski's for this > one! > > The other REAL nice thang about using a single blower like this, is > that > the total noise is gonna be WAY less, not to mention not having to > build > a bloody plenum/air box to hold the multiple smaller vacuum/blower > motors. NEAT! All I do is plumb the intake and exhaust lines up to > the > stand, for a place to hook them up to the "head adapter" and presto, > flow bencho! > > Gar > > P.S. Crumbs, now I have to switch gears and look into computer > controllable 3-phase motor speed controllers. (they're a tad more > complicated than simple thyristor AC/DC controllers, but definitely > diy'able). Sheesh, too many technologies, too little time. From diy_efi-owner Mon May 11 23:54:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10773 for diy_efi-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:54:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mailsrvr.az05.bull.com (mailsrvr.az05.bull.com [141.112.4.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10769 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:54:19 -0400 Received: from abc.az05.bull.com (abc.az05.bull.com [141.112.32.100]) by mailsrvr.az05.bull.com (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) with SMTP id UAA01747 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:42:03 -0700 Received: from slip237.az05.bull.com by abc.az05.bull.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03.01) id AA27707; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:38:51 -0700 Message-Id: <9805120338.AA27707@abc.az05.bull.com> From: "Bill Lawrance" To: Subject: Questions about EGOR Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:40:09 -0700 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >OK, fine on the "features", that sounds good, but do you know what it's >headroom on it's regulated 5.0V current budget IS? I thot not. Nobody >does, so thas why I was pushing for running it off BAT+ if possible. >See, I'm a flyboy, so I don't take such liberties with the assumptions. >If "win, place, or show", is important to you, you won't either. Don't >add to your ECM's power budget unless you know WHAT it's power budget >IS. That was my point. I only know Ludis from his postings on this list, but based on these, he has an extremely accurate and detailed knowledge of the ECM's he is interested in. I would be very surprised if he didn't know exactly what the power budget is in the ECM's he's interested in. >>So I guess I'd need to put a 5:1 resistor divider on EGORs output, run >>that to the standard O2 input, and change the 4 or 5 PROM bytes needed >>to deal with the different voltage profile. > >Again, WHAT?; you really gotta listen up; the output curve for EGOR >doesn't represent ANYTHING similar to an normal O2 sensor, and if you >wanted to map it into a similar kinda output, you'd certainly be >spending more than 4 or 5 bytes on storage, unless you were building a >bang-bang controller, in which case WHY on earth would you use EGOR? You >need to do your homework, dude. Again, from previous posts by Ludis, he has done more 'homework' than at least 99% of the list and shared much of it. I know he's smarter than me, and my response is: please explain more of what you have in mind here because I don't understand it. There is likely to be something very interesting here. >for anywhere less than 10X the cost of the device. I think you, guy, >have your head firmly impacted up a nice, warm dark place, and I am NOT >gonna waste any more of my time on ya. Just my personal opinion, mindya. > >Sayonara, Lulu baby. I think this is very rude and unwarranted. This was not the wild speculations of someone who just read the next chapter in his textbook. In my opinion, reasonable questions and discussion points were posed by one of the most knowledgeable members of the list, and don't deserve this. I do not want Ludis' contributions quashed. Respectfully Bill Lawrance From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 00:01:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA10877 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:01:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.wgn.net (root@mail.wgn.net [207.213.0.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10873 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:01:42 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (du328-pcap-nca01.wgn.net [207.213.6.74]) by mail.wgn.net (8.8.5-q-beta2/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA06494 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:01:32 -0700 Message-Id: X-Sender: sganz@mail.wgn.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:42:01 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Sandy Subject: RE: Wet Brakes In-Reply-To: <01BD7DA4.3CD8ED80.dzorde@soanar.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Another non-related EFI item is to recirculate the brake fluid through the calipers. I have seen a number of vendors, Dan Press Industries, and a couple of others that recycle the fluid through a small cooler to keep it from boiling. The interesting thing is that I was watching the 'Brake Cam' on some 500 mile round and round race, and the rotors on the rear would almost be in a constant glow of red. So the key must be to have really thick rotos, and some nice carbon pads. I also have heard mention of some races with brake activated squirters, but can remember if they were directed more for the caliper or for the rotor. Check the 'real' race mags, stock car, circle track, and racecar engineering for some trick brake components. Oh, sorry Clare, didn't mean to reply to you about the winmail.dat, your message was just one that I replied to. BUT, since the issue came up, someone has the master direction on how to turn it off, might be worth putting on the FTP site. Sandy From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 00:03:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA10916 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:03:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10912 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:03:38 -0400 Received: from main (alaint@ppp132.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.132]) by mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA14826; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:08:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:00:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Alain Toussaint X-Sender: alaint@main To: Clare@snyder.on.ca cc: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors In-Reply-To: <3554BAE4.42E9@huron.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Tell Honda it can't be done. They sold a ton of stratified charge CVCC > cars in the early 80's does they sold some of'em here (Canada/US) ??? Alain From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 00:07:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11076 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:07:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11069 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:07:45 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp35.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.165]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA26341 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:07:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3557C8D1.BEFC6E13@mwt.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:58:10 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Group O2 Hondo Sensors X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <01bd7d53$12170ce0$30198fd1@nacelp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu put me down for one Steve Bruce Plecan wrote: > Think I might have found a second cousins friend's brother in law's > drinkin buddy that might know a guy who works in a parts dept. > Honda.. Now to get a price, I need a rough count of those really > likely to buy, and maybes. Ain't for nothing but gettin the price. > Once I found out how many, then he'll figure a for sure, and a > maybe price, and then I'll ask for names, and money. > If your inna hurry look elsewhere this will go in on a routine > monthy > order, to get the biggest discount, possible. > It will be a money order deal only, and no I ain't makin a penny > on it. It will be cost +tax, +envelope,+ shipping period. An invoice > > will be included if ya want it. > Nothing will happen till all the money is here, I can't afford to > front > this > deal. > Don't go blowin smoke, on this. The more accurate the count, the > quicker this will happen. If ya ain't sure don't bother e-mailing > me.. > Don't tie up the list with this stuff e-mail me. > I'm not gonna venture a quess on price, till I get a head count. > Bruce nacelp@bright.net From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 00:09:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11176 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:09:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from cuda.jcu.edu.au (cuda.jcu.edu.au [137.219.16.28]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11169 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:09:55 -0400 Received: from mbxxxx ([137.219.117.121]) by cuda.jcu.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA08884 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:09:47 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980512140644.49276018@POP.JCU.EDU.AU> X-Sender: sci-cph@POP.JCU.EDU.AU X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:06:44 To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Charles Hatcher Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Dear All, I am new to this mailing list so I hope this is not an irrelevant question (can I ask questions or am I only allowed to post extremely up to date, relevant articals). Anyway, I have a factory turbo charged and fuel injected honda engine in my car. The problem is the computer(denshigiken) is a fuel only type. I can modify my fuel maps but my ignition is controlled strictly by mechanical and vacuum advance. I read an article on the developement of an electronically controlled, distributerless ign. system on your home page. I was wondering how successfull this was. I don't want to move to completely programmable fuel injection (mainly because of the cost but was wondering if you guys would be interested in selling easy to follow plans or a kit or a fully made item?? I don't know what the deal is when it comes to these sort of things. The motor has two inductive type crank angle sensors on the end of the camshaft. The first is run by a magnetic lobe on a shaft with a single trigger point. There is also a four pointed trigger (similar to that found in an electronic distributer)on the same shaft that must have something to do with injector firing? Do you think the signal from either of these could be used, or would I have to set up so sort of reflective signal on the crankshaft pulley? Thanks for giving this some consideration Charles Hatcher From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 00:12:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11326 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:12:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11322 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:12:33 -0400 From: goflo@pacbell.net Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-206-170-121-86.sndg02.pacbell.net [206.170.121.86]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id VAA17504 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3557CC26.436E@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:12:22 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-PBXG (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensors & ION Eyes References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35565267.2EC950DC@mwt.net> <35656917.20857796@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35575C75.2B45@pacbell.net> <35926dbf.87585234@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gar - Forgot to mention that I had been thinking about pitot tubes for use in a sort of hybrid FI scheme. Speed-density for daily-driver operating regime, supplemented/supplanted by pitot tube input as rpm and air demand rise. Might work well in boost apps. I can see a horribly complicated algorithm though. Perhaps not even well- structured. Jack From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 00:42:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11854 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:42:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lnagate.foxboro.com.au (lnagate.foxboro.com.au [202.12.113.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11849 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:42:08 -0400 Received: (qmail 30421 invoked from network); 12 May 1998 04:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO foxboro.com.au) (202.12.112.10) by gatekeeper.foxboro.com.au with SMTP; 12 May 1998 04:41:23 -0000 Received: from wayneb-nt (fwserver [202.12.112.56]) by foxboro.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA17168 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:41:22 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980512144139.00934470@qtc-mail> X-Sender: wayneb@qtc-mail X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:41:39 +1000 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Wayne Blair Subject: the aussie V8, direct petrol injection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu some more 308 info - as I did not see some of the q's answered STD bore 4.00 stroke 3.06 BE 2.125 easy stroked sizes 320 use small journal chev rods 350 use 350 chev crank 383 use 400 chev crank requires crank rework to hav something to attache flywheel to Also aftermarket cast cranks in 3.5 and 3.75 strokes can use a 272 or 292 or 312 y-block ford crank can bore a perkins (another great aussie racer) block to 4.125 thus 400 is possible. Also much of the direct petrol injection system employed are made under licence to the aussie orbital engine company. wayne From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 01:09:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA12190 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:09:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from acaix1.ucis.dal.ca (acaix1.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.50]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12186 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:08:54 -0400 Received: from is2.dal.ca (fagunddj@IS2.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.66]) by acaix1.ucis.dal.ca (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA58820 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:08:54 -0300 Received: from localhost (fagunddj@localhost) by is2.dal.ca (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA114420 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:08:53 -0300 Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 02:08:53 -0300 (ADT) From: Dennis J Fagundo To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: 2 stroke injection In-Reply-To: <3557BF94.22CA@huron.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I am working on injecting a 100cc 2stroke motorcycle however I have been taking a long time to get anywhere with the combination of school work and the amount of stuff there is to figure out before ....... Anyway I am planning on first implementing an elec ign , then add a port injector, then eventually add closed loop control perhaps using the wide range o2 meter. So I probably can't help ya too much, but anyway.... L8R Dennis __________________________________- Dennis Fagundo fagunddj@is2.dal.ca dfagundo@ibl.bm ___________________________________ On Mon, 11 May 1998, Clare Snyder wrote: > Anybody ever tried mechanical injection, like a diesel pump, on a 2 > stroke gas engine?Figure the oil in the mix would handle lubrication OK > - but would it work? Not talking direct injection, just port, timed > injection on a V4 Evinrude.Pressure reduced from doozle pressure, and > injection volume determined strictly by throttle opening, with possible > manual mixture control. > -- > _/\_ > --|-----([])-----|-- > S 0/ \0 B > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > E-Mail service is back to normal > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > OR > Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the > spammers!!! > It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of > Turkeys!!! > ________________________________________________ Dennis Fagundo fagunddj@tuns.ca dfagundo@ibl.bm http://www.tuns.ca/~fagunddj _______________________________________________ From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 01:27:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA12444 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:27:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12440 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:27:32 -0400 Received: from odin (1Cust26.tnt22.atl2.da.uu.net [153.36.127.26]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA23486 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:27:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Thor Johnson" To: Subject: RE: Spark plugs/injectors Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:27:31 -0400 Message-ID: <003a01bd7d66$a96b9c60$06c05196@odin.mavrik.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Tell Honda it can't be done. They sold a ton of > stratified charge CVCC > > cars in the early 80's > > does they sold some of'em here (Canada/US) ??? I've owned 2 Accord CVCC engines (and their cars! 1984 & 1986). Both were feedback carbed, which means when the ego went out, you could accelerate if you timed it right (with the richining of the A/F). Pretty good, not a lot of power, but 35mpg even w/180k mi on it. Actually, the 84 might not have been CVCC, but I don't remember. It still ran OK after impacting a tree, so give it some credit (impact only enough to mangle up thru radiator/oil cooler)! -Thor Johnson thormj@iname.com From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 01:28:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA12475 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:28:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12471 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:28:42 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA6769 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:28:42 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Questions about EGOR Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:29:32 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35acd361.113603812@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <9805120338.AA27707@abc.az05.bull.com> In-Reply-To: <9805120338.AA27707@abc.az05.bull.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id BAA12472 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 11 May 1998 20:40:09 -0700, "Bill Lawrance" wrote: >I only know Ludis from his postings on this list, but based on these, he >has an extremely accurate and detailed knowledge of the ECM's he is >interested in. I would be very surprised if he didn't know exactly >what the power budget is in the ECM's he's interested in. Ok, Ok, I may have been a tad hard on ole Lulu. I admit it. But ya noticed I took the time to respond to his questions, rather than just blow them off? In the beginning, I gave the twirp the benefit of the doubt. Cuz here's what I see. A guy knows what he knows in the area he knows. Problem is, he doesn't know what he doesn't know. That's alot harder thing. So he waltzes into this other area, and figures, well, I know my way around here, so I'll just button-hole these guys and see what's what. So he ends up asking a few off-the-wall questions, and EVERY post I've seen from him, it starts off with what seem like reasonable questions, and then he ends up progressively sticking his head up his orifice, ifyaknowwhadamean. Give you an example; he starts by asking the seemingly innocent question, that he wonders how much power EGOR takes, cuz he'd like to run it off his ECM power. I say, OK, here's how much power EGOR takes, but remember, it's always better to NOT presume on your ECM power budget, cuz NOBODY, except the designers of the system, can know what the available reserve is. NOBODY. He replys by saying, OH, yeah, but ALL the sensors on normal ECM's run off ECM power, and besides my ECM has lots of power features, so I'd like to use it. Features, smeatures, I say, what about the issue I raised about presuming on the ECM power budget? Now YOU say, Oh Ludis is smart, he MUST know what the budget is. Yeah?, BUZZZTT, you're lookin to the man rather than the facts. NOBODY knows! NOBODY. Which was my point; so when some preppy lil puke comes back and says, well Gar, my dog's smarter and prettier than yours, I only gotta say, Nyet, nix, zilch. You wanna argue the parameters, fine; but don't just pass by the obvious, and argue with some straw man like, "well, all the sensors use ECM power". Well, hell yes they do, and they've been designed into the power budget, but YOU have no idea how much slack is left, and YOU'RE gonna just tack something else on and HOPE it works?! Like I said before, I don't play fast and loose with the engineering, cuz I'm a flyboy, and if anything I've learned from Mutha Naitcha is, you don't ASSume stuff like this. >Again, from previous posts by Ludis, he has done more 'homework' than >at least 99% of the list and shared much of it. I know he's smarter than >me, and my response is: please explain more of what you have in mind >here because I don't understand it. There is likely to be something >very interesting here. OK, thas why I said I may have been a tad hard on ole Lulu. He has contributed, he has done his homework. But in this case, microprocessor wits are nearly absolutely witless. They RARELY have to think about a limited power budget, cuz they're used to living off an infinite +5V. What I think happened is he want's to be part of the intelligencia concerning EGOR (of which there is precious lil if any), but instead of playing the student (always a wise move), he plays the "expert from across town", and pees all over his own leg as a result. Well, waytago, dude, is all I gotta say. If ya don't know what the f*ck you're talkin bout, then don't open yer mouth. That's my paradigm. Don't like it?; get stuffed. That's my paradigm. Gee, do I hear an echo in here? We ALL are accountable to the truth and what's real, as best we know it. If you pretend to know something you don't, in my Dad's book, that's just LYING. Period. >>I think you, guy, >>have your head firmly impacted up a nice, warm dark place, and I am NOT >>gonna waste any more of my time on ya. Just my personal opinion, mindya. >> >>Sayonara, Lulu baby. >I think this is very rude and unwarranted. I expected as much from some who can't see what's going on here. Ludis wants to be considered an "expert", but he's talking like a PLEBE, so I responded to him as a plebe. You're upset. Fine, as expected. Just consider both sides of the coin, is all I ask. Lulu's parting comment was some preppy sentiment that ANY group guy should include the wiring harness for the sensor. Anyone with ANY experience or brains in this automotive world we live in KNOWS that is a total whining canard. A HARNESS, CONNECTORS? You expect to get them for anything reasonable in cost and you've made Pollyanna look like a cynic, in comparison. So what starts out a seemingly legitimate string of questions get progressively peavish and STUPID. Ends up complaining that his diapers are wet, and "we shouldn't order sensors unless we can get connectors and harnesses TOO". Whaaaaaa. Yeah, sure. >I do not want Ludis' contributions quashed. Nor do I. I'd hope rather that Ludis would consider this lashing from an ole curmudgeon like me as a lesson that one dasn't play the knowitall unless one is prepared to pay the piper. Thas all. >Respectfully I agree, Bill, your retort to me has been extremely respectful and well-modulated, and I am actually amazed at the even tone. It's not often you see that sort of thing. I would ask in return that you consider my statement back to you, that I think Ludis' motives for the questions he's been asking haven't been so much info seeking as trying to pretend he's the electrical man-about-town. And I was just laughing that his fly appeared to be open. Heh. >Bill Lawrance Gar From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 01:30:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA12549 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:30:22 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12544 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:30:18 -0400 Received: from pclab30.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab30.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.130]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA18659 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:30:13 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:30:13 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805120530.PAA18659@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu G'day there mate... The ignition thing sounds good. I have a spark plug gap of about 1.5mm(standard for my car). How do you think this will go? As for Charles Nelson Pogue, of Winnepeg, Canada... No... I don't know a thing about him (just kidding)... As for 216 MPG - I assume this is imperial gallons, not US gallons. Asside from that, Pogue, himself never claimed to get more than 100 MPG (he never claimed this much). He only claimed a "significant increase" in mileage. However, others claimed these figures for him. I don't know the accuracy of such figures, but I believe he did get 100 MPG at least once (from other evidence that I've seen). However, he was using "white" gasoline, which is completely free of lead, and didn't have any "molecular binders," as we have now. The molecular binders are to keep the fuel from vaporising in storage. As for unleaded fuel, it still has lead, but in trace quantities, so it does not harm cat converters. What Pogue didn't reallise until too late was that his carb catalytically cracked the fuel into methane (and other small, high octane molecules). When leaded fuel came along, his invention ceased to work, as the lead coated the copper surface of his vaposiser, and stopped the catalytic reaction. Now, with ULP, and PULP, we can use second hand cat converters to crack the fuel (provided there is no air in the catalytic chamber, and the chamber's temp is over 500 deg C). Pogue didn't reallise all of this until after leaded fuel became the normal fuel, and "white" gasoline was no longer available. I'm designing a carb on these very principles at the moment, using EFI to control it. A friend of mine put me onto what he calls Thremal Catalytic Cracking. Anyway, tell me what you know, and I may be able to help you a bit. Danny Barrett. >Hi, Danny, >The system itself will give huge possibilities to bring down a/f-ratio, >because it changes and adapts each type of combustion process much better >to the engines' parameters. >The minimum a/f-ratios achievable with a well structured spark energy are >depending on your combustion chamber, spark plug gap, ignition coil, a.s.o. >For bringing the a/f-ratio down, some fine-tuning of spark advance and >electrode gapping will greatly help to use at least some of the impulse >oscillator ignition systems' advantages. > >By the way, DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING ABOUT A HIGH-MILEAGE CARB IN THE 30's by >Charles M. Pogue which could do 216 mpg!! > >Joachim From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 01:35:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA12679 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:35:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12675 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:35:51 -0400 Received: from pclab30.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab30.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.130]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA20205 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:35:51 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:35:51 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805120535.PAA20205@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Re: Holdens a little info X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >At 12:09 11/05/98 +1000, you wrote: >>Actually, the normally aspirated 3L is the RB-30E, and the Turbo is the >>RB-30ET. RB-30E has comp. ratio of 9:1, and the RB-30ET has comp. ratio of >>7.5:1, so obviously, they have different heads. Even still, both have >>problems with cracking heads, so you have to be careful not to everheat >>them. Even still, I've heard of a RB-30ET getting 470 HP, and another (with >>a little bit of nitrous) getting 670 HP. Not bad from a 3L engine... >> >> >>>> a nissan 3L also (some one else will know more) >>> >>>The nissan is an RB-30 >>> >>>in both normally aspirated, and turbo configurations..... > > >I have been informed that the heads were the same, although the VL turbo >uses pistons with a deep dish... but my engine builder may be mistaken... >it wouldn't be the first time :) I got the comp. ratios from a "Gregory manual," so I assume they're correct. However, I suppose they could use the same head, only, the non-turbo one could be "planed down" in comparison to the turbo one. Of course, the turbo head is red, while the normal one is grey (from memory - or perhaps black - I haven't taken much notice). From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 01:47:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA12943 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:47:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12938 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:47:01 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA7134 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:47:02 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensors & ION Eyes Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:47:48 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35aedef5.116567703@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35565267.2EC950DC@mwt.net> <35656917.20857796@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35575C75.2B45@pacbell.net> <35926dbf.87585234@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <3557BCD9.5F1A@pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <3557BCD9.5F1A@pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id BAA12939 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Mon, 11 May 1998 20:07:05 -0700, goflo@pacbell.net wrote: >I'll be taking you up on the speed controller assistance. Thanks. >Need to decide whether to go with what I've got or just build a >bench from scratch. I'm taken with this Paxton blower notion - >Really sounds like a winner. A/C motor controls are outside my >hack so I'm all ears for your scheme. Well, don't look now, but I've read some on the present "tek" on AC motor speed controllers, and it makes me wonder if I'm really an EE. I think I've got a pretty decent learning curve aheadOme. >Lemme run this by you: Re pitot tubes - How 'bout sensing "static" >pressure in a duct of known dimension and velocity with a pitot >tube. If you know both then flow is straightforward computation. >High quality pitot tubes are relatively cheap (Dwyer). A range of >duct diameters is possible if necessary. Comment? Well, yeah, that's what I always thot was the point of them Dwyer two-piece pitot tubes, one to measure static, the other dynamic, but again, you HAVE to assume the velocity profile of the plumbing you're using, in order to get FLOW, don'tcha? >Not to beat accuracy/repeatability to death, but I've found in >component testing that what you've got hung on the piece under test >(manifold, air straightener, whatever) makes way more than a couple >of per cent difference - I doubt it'll surprise you that a lot of the >"big" numbers you hear about are obtained with very "unrealistic" test >set-ups, to put it kindly. Yeah, well you ARE way ahead of me on knowing the practicalities of this game, as I have only played with a SF-300 on one single head (4 ports) I was working on. That's why I said probably +-5% is gonna do it. But I've also had the crappy experience of sending the piece to someone else that also had a SF-300, and having them tell me my numbers were way off!! >I once had the honor of being abused by Ken Sperrling (AFR) Ahhh, that's all goin under the heading of politics/and-or those that deserve most of all the single-finger salute. Geez, understanding and keepin yerself from foolin yerself is hard enough, without these bozos coming along and saying they're fully clothed and beautiful, when any damned fool can see they're stark naked. I dunno, at my age I start thinking what caliber of ordnance would be necessary to expunge the dildo from the scene. I've come to the conclusion that fakes and charlatans are a natural percentage of the population, and should be treated as such, just like any OTHER criminal element. But, then again, I am kinda a curmudeon. Gar From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 01:51:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13083 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:51:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [207.51.48.185]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13079 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:51:12 -0400 From: grantg@iname.com Received: from web01.globecomm.net (web01 [207.51.48.36]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.8.8/8.8.0) with ESMTP id BAA11047 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by web01.globecomm.net (8.8.8/8.8.0) id BAA29723; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805120551.BAA29723@web01.globecomm.net> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: the aussie V8, direct petrol injection Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Also aftermarket cast cranks in 3.5 and 3.75 strokes any idea on cost of these cranks....ideally the ones that will take standard Chev rods > can bore a perkins (another great aussie racer) block to 4.125 Never heard of these blocks ....are they cast by Holden for Perkins ?? > > Also much of the direct petrol injection system employed are made under > licence to the aussie orbital engine company. What parts in particular ?? ------------------------------------------------------ Get free personalized email at http://four11.iname.com From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 02:45:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA14021 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:45:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from cuda.jcu.edu.au (cuda.jcu.edu.au [137.219.16.28]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA14017 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:45:24 -0400 Received: from mbxxxx ([137.219.117.121]) by cuda.jcu.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA10118 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 16:45:21 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980512164211.2e074932@POP.JCU.EDU.AU> X-Sender: sci-cph@POP.JCU.EDU.AU X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:42:11 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Charles Hatcher Subject: RE: Spark plugs/injectors In-Reply-To: <003a01bd7d66$a96b9c60$06c05196@odin.mavrik.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I have an injected, turboed CVCC 1200 motor in my car which puts out 140bhp. Before that I had the ES1800 CVCC dual carb 86 Prelude motor which put out 135hp. I bent the cvcc valves on that so I took them out and plugged the holes. Then I disconected the third carby (CVCC only). The thing didn't lose any hp but it did get a slightly rough idle. CVCC are great for turbos because you can run high boost such as 20lbs with a standard head and gasket etc. This is primarily because of the stratified charge. Detonation is much less likely to occur. Ie there is much less chance of a second flame front developing in the lean main combustion chamber before the rich precombustion mixture is ignited. From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 02:52:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA14117 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:52:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA14113 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:52:46 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-039.mcn.net [208.26.146.39]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA14543 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:52:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3557EE86.F8F44354@mcn.net> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:39:02 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. References: <01bd7a91$20423b60$4c198fd1@nacelp> <199805111526.IAA10781@mail.wgn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sandy wrote: > > Please check your mail programs, It is attaching those annoying > WINMAIL.DAT, and other junk files along with the mail. > > Sandy WHO??? From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 03:04:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA14312 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 03:04:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from missouri.mcn.net (root@missouri.mcn.net [204.212.170.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA14308 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 03:03:58 -0400 Received: from mcn.net (blgspm301-039.mcn.net [208.26.146.39]) by missouri.mcn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA15868 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:03:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3557F125.8B3006CC@mcn.net> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:50:13 -0600 From: Shannen Durphey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I just can't believe my eyes. This is incredible. Unbelievable even. Joachim M. Wagner wrote: > > Thank you very much for the compliments, Gar! > I feel you are one of the first people to whom I ever spoke who has > perfectly realised what' s going on with that ignition system! > It' s an honour for me to talk with you, Gar. > Joachim > > ---------- > > Von: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com > > An: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Betreff: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy > > Datum: Montag, 11. Mai 1998 18:40 > > > > On Mon, 11 May 1998 13:44:47 +0300, "Joachim M. Wagner" > > <1028-156@online.de> wrote: > > > > >The system itself will give huge possibilities to bring down a/f-ratio, > > >because it changes and adapts each type of combustion process much > better > > >to the engines' parameters. > > >... > > >By the way, DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING ABOUT A HIGH-MILEAGE CARB IN THE 30's > by > > >Charles M. Pogue which could do 216 mpg!! > > > > > >Joachim > > > > This group just keeps on amazin me!! This is a stupendous development, > > Joachim. You put a passive device in between the IGN system's HV and the > > plug, and it "feels each cylinder" and "reshapes the energy" for optimum > > efficiency/performance. WOW! I'm impressed. > > > > Sheesh, well, looks like we've made the transition from our own personal > > automotive "crack refinery" to the group's own personal "crack pot"! Now > > THAT'S progress, dudes. B) > > > > Gar > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 03:41:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA14814 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 03:41:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.online.de (root@mail.online.de [193.158.2.93]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA14810 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 03:41:50 -0400 Received: from ascentia-900n(really [193.159.68.109]) by mail.online.de via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:42:11 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2.0.95 1997-May-7 #2 built DST-Jun-10) Message-Id: From: "Joachim M. Wagner" <1028-156@online.de> To: Subject: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:46:51 +0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sorry to say, you are completely wrong! I wish you could distinct better between spark enhancers which indrease the number of sparks or the amount of energy, but I said clearly that the IOS-unit is transforming the QUALITY (that means all the wave-forms and phase-shifting inside the spark!!) and it works even with the highest possible frequencies, the fastest which are in the spark, and it works in real-time mode that means no time delay of sparking and it is very fast, because even frequencies above 1000 GHz are transformed. Isn't it Great? with best regards of Joachim ---------- > Von: kenkelly@lucent.com > An: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Betreff: Re: Spark plugs/injectors & specified ignition energy > Datum: Dienstag, 12. Mai 1998 00:09 > > Sorry to say they didn't just go to Europe. They were > demonstrated at the Spring 98 Englishtown, NJ & Carlisle, PA > Automotive Flea markets. I have been going to the Spring & > Fall shows for the last 5 years and there is always one car > or pickup truck set up with a Spark enhanser. I think its > the Autotransformer type. They even manage to sell them to > this supposedly automotive oriented crowd!!! > > Ken > > Clare Snyder wrote: > > > > garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, 11 May 1998 13:44:47 +0300, "Joachim M. Wagner" > > > <1028-156@online.de> wrote: > > > > > > >The system itself will give huge possibilities to bring down a/f-ratio, > > > >because it changes and adapts each type of combustion process much better > > > >to the engines' parameters. > > > >... > > > >By the way, DID YOU HEAR SOMETHING ABOUT A HIGH-MILEAGE CARB IN THE 30's by > > > >Charles M. Pogue which could do 216 mpg!! > > > > > > > >Joachim > > > > > > This group just keeps on amazin me!! This is a stupendous development, > > > Joachim. You put a passive device in between the IGN system's HV and the > > > plug, and it "feels each cylinder" and "reshapes the energy" for optimum > > > efficiency/performance. WOW! I'm impressed. > > > > > > Sheesh, well, looks like we've made the transition from our own personal > > > automotive "crack refinery" to the group's own personal "crack pot"! Now > > > THAT'S progress, dudes. B) > > > > > > Gar > > > > Gar, they've been selling these doo-dads at county fairs since about > > 1935. They have a spark gap in them that supposedly increases the > > voltage of the spark - that's one model. The other I have seen has an > > autotransformer in it - just like an ignition coil but a lower ratio, > > that is supposed to boost spark output, and a third one that supposedly > > gives a "shower of sparks". Don't know how that one is supposed to work, > > but I also saw one that used a "model T type" coil to give multiple > > sparks. Thought they were finally history, but it appears they just went > > to Europe! > > -- > > _/\_ > > --|-----([])-----|-- > > S 0/ \0 B > > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > > E-Mail service is back to normal > > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages > > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > > OR > > Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the > > spammers!!! > > It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of > > Turkeys!!! > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 04:12:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA15278 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:12:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from guardian.egr.up.edu (guardian.egr.up.edu [192.102.10.10]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA15274 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:12:07 -0400 Received: from upsun28.egr.up.edu by guardian.egr.up.edu with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0yZAEA-000v4mC; Tue, 12 May 98 01:15 PDT Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:10:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Vandrachek To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: How do I reduce ignition noise. (HELP!!) In-Reply-To: <35575D3C.274D@tpgi.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To all in EFT land: I have recently designed and built a simple EFT system based on a Mot. HC12. All has gone well until now. I can't keep the MCU from reseting whenever the ignition fires. I am only a sophomore EE student so I don't exactly know where to start. Here is a quick outline: -The MCU is physically isolated from the coil etc (5ft), but they share the same battery. -I'm using a standard points ignition...I'd do a electronic, but I have to be done by this Friday. -The MCU supply is regulated with only a LM2935 (an automotive specific device). Only a .1 cap on the inputs. -It seems that reset occurs most whenever a open arc is present, arcing in distributor cap included. -The problem is independent of my triggering pulse (from coil)...so I'm guessing it is due to voltage spikes/drops or it is "in the air" (EMF?). I don't know what to do and I gotta have the done by Friday for a design competition. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!! Thanks, Chris Vondrachek EE student, University of Portland chrisv@egr.up.edu From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 04:17:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA15344 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:17:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA15340 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:17:21 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD7D86.56804B20@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:14:16 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Wet Brakes Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:14:16 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 32 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Someone who knows the score when it comes to real power on the track wrote: >The local 5Litre touring cars use water sprayed on the discs to cool the >brakes. Massive discs and 6 pot calipers - you need that for 300kmh :-) > >Peter >(Finally worked out how to stop winmail.dat with Bill's Pot-O-S#!t Emailer >prog) The Thundersaloons were basically the same sorts of speeds as your modern day touring car, the way that they managed this was by having litterally no rules as to what modifications were allowed. No Max engine size, no max tire width, no wing restrictions, in fact no of the silly rules that has turned motorsport into the dull lack lustre debarcle that it is today. What ever happened to it, though? well it became Formula Saloon, with the same rules as before! So now you get to see ex works touring cars vs clubman built specials, there is a twin turbo V8 powered saloon that produces nearly 1000bhp! No that has got to be seen to be believed. What was all this about? Oh yea, no matter what cooling the barkes on many of these monsters have, and they have the lot, because of the acceleration and braking on circuits like Brands Hatch many need water cooling the breaks, many even have oil coolers in their diffs gearboxes/transaxles Rob Humphris > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 04:21:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA15443 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:21:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA15439 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 04:21:48 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD7D86.F548A3B0@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:18:43 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Wet Brakes Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:18:42 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 12 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I think Brembo or one of the european caliper manifacturers offer a caliper with a water jacket so you can get coolant flowing through your system and easy fluid stress in the hydralic systems > >Another non-related EFI item is to recirculate the brake fluid through the >calipers. I have seen a number of vendors, Dan Press Industries, and a >couple of others that recycle the fluid through a small cooler to keep it >from boiling. The interesting thing is that I was watching the 'Brake Cam' >on some 500 mile round and round race, and the rotors on the rear would >almost be in a constant glow of red. > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 05:00:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA16075 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:00:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA16069 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:00:26 -0400 Received: from bernie (sisko.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.102]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19727 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:02:15 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980512185956.007b57b0@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:59:56 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Brake cooling In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980511151822.007a4100@xephic.dynip.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Here are some other ways to cool brakes: > >1. Thicker rotors. More metal, more surface area to stop the car as well >as dissipate the heat. >2. Vented rotors (of course). >3. Air ducts, most race cars have duct work all over the place. >4. Caliper heat sinks, or larger calipers. >5. Brake line coolers. I saw one gent who had heat sink fins on the brake >lines near the calipers. I can't say for sure if that really helped or >not, but he claimed it did. This was in a dirt-style circle track car. >6. Change wheel airflow. Its fairly easy to make or purchase wheel covers >that have fins, which would suck in or discharge air while the wheel >rotates, like a fan. Its not as effective as a brake-oriented air-scoop, >but its another solution. The car I initially mentioned that requires this system runs in an Australian class called 'Appendix J', this is a controlled class where the brakes must stay with the components used at the time of manufacture... ie. DRUMS, front and rear as you can see, the suggestion's you have made (apart from ducting) are all out of the question. :) The water is really the only option, so any help with a simple circuit to trigger it would be appreciated.... after some thought we want to go with the original idea of a timer, that measures how long the brake pedal is depressed, and switches on the water pump for this same amount of time.... but we want to be able to adjust a maximum time setting.. probably around 5 seconds. can anyone help with the electronics? From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 05:15:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA16371 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:15:55 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [207.51.48.185]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA16367 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:15:53 -0400 From: grantg@iname.com Received: from web01.globecomm.net (web01 [207.51.48.36]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.8.8/8.8.0) with ESMTP id FAA09103 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by web01.globecomm.net (8.8.8/8.8.0) id FAA16273; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 05:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805120915.FAA16273@web01.globecomm.net> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Holdens a little info Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To put an end to all this I checked part numbers and the bare head assemblys for both RB30E and RB30ET engines carry the same GM part number (which is not suprisingly a Nissan part #), the difference in comp. ratio is attained by different pistons.Both crank and rods are the same in both engines The rocker covers are grey for the RB30E and red crinkle for the RB30ET > However, I suppose they could use the same head, only, the non-turbo one > could be "planed down" in comparison to the turbo one. Of course, the turbo > head is red, while the normal one is grey (from memory - or perhaps black - > I haven't taken much notice). Grant ------------------------------------------------------ Get free personalized email at http://four11.iname.com From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 05:48:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA16869 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:48:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA16859 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:48:06 -0400 Received: from bernie (sisko.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.102]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19923 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:49:53 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980512194723.007c52a0@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:47:23 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer In-Reply-To: References: <3554637C.186B087F@lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 11:38 11/05/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Sat, 9 May 1998 kenkelly@lucent.com wrote: > >> 1) Has anyone found a shareware or reasonably priced software package to >> reprogram the 94 & up GM EEProm ECM's. > >Steve Cole of The Turbo Shop sells his Mastertune software that will do >reprograms of those PCM's. Not sure if you'll need the Pro version, >though ($3700)... :/ > >-Jody > >-- >97 Blue Vortech Z28 - Best ET: 13.100 Best MPH: 111.24 (Goodyear RS-A's) >361 rear-wheel hp @ 6000rpm, 359 rear-wheel ft-lbs @ 4400rpm >http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ I was put onto an Australian site recently, they have kits including all software/cables/boards etc to program the Delco EMS's in most of our Holden (GM) cars. have a look at.... http://white.aljan.com.au/~bradhost/ i really don't know if it would be at all of use to anyone, but hey..... From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 06:37:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA17422 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 06:37:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mailout02.btx.dtag.de (mailout02.btx.dtag.de [194.25.2.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA17418 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 06:37:54 -0400 Received: from fwd07.btx.dtag.de (fwd07.btx.dtag.de [194.25.2.167]) by mailout02.btx.dtag.de with smtp id 0yZCQw-0007Yz-00; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:37:18 +0200 Received: (091059380-0001(btxid)@[193.159.45.213]) by fwd07.btx.dtag.de id ; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:37:14 +0200 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:37:14 +0200 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu References: <3.0.3.32.19980512004521.006c4000@mail.rtmol.it> Subject: Re: Info X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Sender: 091059380-0001@t-online.de From: wenning.motorsport@t-online.de (Alexander Wenning) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu fpalumbo@rtmol.it schrieb: > > Please, > > I need information about the OBD2 Protocol for european Cars. > > Someone Knows were can I find Technical Informations ? > > Any Information would be appreciated. Thanks. > > Fabrizio Palumbo. Try www.obdii.com (or was it www.obd2.com ???) This might help you a lot. Regards Alex Wenning wenning.motorsport@t-online.de From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 07:51:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA17893 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 07:51:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from users.qual.net (users.qual.net [207.25.206.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA17889 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 07:51:24 -0400 Received: from dilbert (pix-223.nordson.com [207.206.59.223]) by users.qual.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/CICnet/IAG) with SMTP id HAA15455 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 07:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001601bd7d9b$cb5e9c20$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> From: "Gary Derian" To: Subject: Re: 2 stroke injection Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:47:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu No 2 stroke but I have done lots of work with Bosch mechanical fuel injection years ago. These units inject over a fairly small crank angle. I would be concerned about proper lubrication or some uncontrolled stratified charge with only a timed injector pulse(lots of air with a slug of fuel swirling around). Injector pulse proportional to throttle would create some problems as the VE curve has some great peaks and valleys. Just my 2 cents. Gary Derian >Anybody ever tried mechanical injection, like a diesel pump, on a 2 >stroke gas engine?Figure the oil in the mix would handle lubrication OK >- but would it work? Not talking direct injection, just port, timed >injection on a V4 Evinrude.Pressure reduced from doozle pressure, and >injection volume determined strictly by throttle opening, with possible >manual mixture control. > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 08:23:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18200 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18196 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:36 -0400 Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id IAA17417; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:37 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from cris.com (ts002d19.aus-tx.concentric.net [206.173.144.55]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id IAA24765; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35584D40.EFA3152B@cris.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:13 -0500 From: "John A. Hess" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Pardon me if this is a dumb question; but, what does a diy_flowbench have to do with diy_efi? garfield@pilgrimhouse.com wrote: > On Mon, 11 May 1998 09:01:33 +1200, "Tony Bryant" > wrote: > > >As, it happens, I'm also building a DIY FlowBench. May I enquire: > > > >1) What are you using for (a) blower(s)? > > Not sure this is gonna be much help to ya in Kiwilandia, but both > SuperFlow and QuadrantSci use multiples of what is refered to in the > trade as ' 5.7" vacuum motor/blowers', made by a number of suppliers, > especially Ametek, w/air-sealed bearings & double-insolated. They make a > line of two-stage blower/turbines that for example, are rated at > 102cfm/90"H20, 120VAC@9.2A [Ametek (used to be Amtek-Lamb) part # > 116025-13], which sell from a big US electrical supply house like > Grainger for about $70US ea. I have looked inside SuperFlow boxes and > talked to the designer of the QuadrantSci stuff, and in both cases what > they do is of course use multiple blowers in an array, and stacked in > pairs in series electrically, which you CAN do with AC/DC motors, so you > now have a pair of said blowers drawing 9.2A/pair across 240VAC. Put say > 4 pairs of these puppies together and you're up to a goodly 36A @ > 240VAC. Not maxing out your shop feed, by any means, but still alot of > power at 5KVA. And yes, you'd better believe it's gonna be noisy! Not to > mention the "local warming phenomenon", heh. > > >2) Can you publish your thyristor speed controller circuit, or at > >least give us some rough details? > > Sure, got it directly outta > http://www.teccor.com/thyristor/an1003.pdf > Look for the "double-time-constant" circuit examples. To get me up to > 12A @ 240VAC (25% safety margin above the 9A I expected), I used a > Teccor Q6025J6 Triac and an HT-32 (SGS-Thomson also make the exact same > part they call a DB3) Diac. Both of these devices are available cheap > from DigiKey: > ftp://ftp.digikey.com/Catalog/V3/PAGES/201-250/211.pdf > > This is only good for driving a single PAIR of these blowers, so you > need to invent/rig either a tandem mechanical or electrical way of > controlling the pairs of blowers. If you don't wanna build these up > yerself, and plan on a manual control for the blowers, Dayton Electric > makes a similar knob-controlled circuit for fan & blower control > packaged with an integral heat sink. They charge around $100US for them! > All for a circuit that contains about $12-15 worth of parts. (Hey, all > it takes is 2 middlemen, and that's what it's gotta be marked up to). > > For my purposes, controlling these pairs of thyristors/blowers via > computer, I'm gonna use some mosfet devices in place of the pots. Thas > all. (I gotta look at this 5HP 3-phase Paxton blower Bob MacKnight > recently posted on, tho; it sounds too good to be true, buy hey, greater > wonders I've seen happen via "surplus" stuff, so who knows!). > > >I'm currently using a hotted up garden leafblower, but I'm only > >getting 10" @ 100 CFM. (Its also very loud). > > Well, that just showTaGoYa what kinda power you have to apply to move > that much air at that much vacuum/pressure. Your garden blower can't be > drawing much more than 10-12A @ 120VAC (hmm, not sure what the mains are > in Nz, but just using US figures for ducks). Multiply that by a factor > of 6-8 to get what's needed to do 20" @ 300cfm. Or compare that to the > power both SuperFlow and QuadrantSci spec for their bigger benches. It's > LOTS of AMPS @ 240VAC. Go see at: > http://www.superflow.com/products/products-flowbench-sf300.htm > and you'll see 240VAC @ 33A or > http://www.quadsci.com/products/engair/flwbnch/flwbnch.htm > where you will see 240VAC @ 29A, that's because they're using motor > control of the blowers, instead of 'bypass', they get some better > numbers than the SuperFlow chaps, especially at lower flow rates. > > >I'm using the PWM circuit out of the back of the Motorola Thyristor > >book, but it's kinda pulsey in this application. > > Hmm, never looked in there. Not familiar. > > >And a mechanical pressure sender (a modified carb > >secondary vaccum modulator, hooked to a pot) as the feedback to the > >motor controller. > > > >I'm using an uncalibrated flap style MAF (I will calibrate on some > >known heads) > > Alright, yer my kinda guy. It may not be "accurate" or "calibrated" but > for just comparative flow bench studies, which is the real meatNpotatoes > of the issue anyways, as long as the pressure is repeatable and the flow > delta is measurable, that's all that matters. With a small investment in > better pressure measurement, ala the stuff that > "Jack" mentioned earlier: > http://mot2.indirect.com/senseon/mpxl5010.html > for the sales pitch and > http://mot2.indirect.com/books/dl200/pdf/mpxl5010rev2.pdf > for the datasheets, for a 0-40"water range, where IF you can operate at > around 20"water, the linearity and accuracy of this device will be just > wunnerful for your/our porpoises. And it's "cheap", too!! (North > American Price List says $13-15 each). > > The main thing to get outta all this, I s'pose, is that we're REALLY > movin a whole lotta AIR to duplicate what a large ICE does whilst > breathing. So whether you go for a 5HP single-piece blower motor, ala > Bob McK's recent post ($350 surplus, so figure $3K new), or you add up a > bunch of smaller blowers like the big boys do (around $500 total, new), > you're still talkin about a lot of power to cover the pumping losses for > that much air flow. > > Anywho, Tony, good to see there's at least one other wacko like meself > thinkin alone these lines. I bought/borrowed/read every article/paper I > could find about the older "fixed, knife-edge orifice and manometer" > style FB's ala SuperFlow, but after chatting with the designer of the > QuadSci stuff (whose name is "Oz", oddly enough), I was thoroughly sold > on this newer approach via electric control of everythang. Maybe just > the geek in me, but them knife-edge orifices ain't no easy pie to > calibrate, and have to be moved in and out mechanically, and besides, I > like to avoid the black magic whenever I can. > > Just some poop and some thots, dude. > > Cheers, > Gar From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 08:39:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18427 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:39:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18423 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:39:31 -0400 Received: from tmc6.astm.cmri.cmu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id IAA15730; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:39:30 -0400 Received: by TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:40:48 -0400 Message-ID: <311B7EA14AAAD111B6AC0000C0E4A3CF0219CD@TMC6.ASTM.CMRI.CMU.EDU> From: Michael Kasimirsky To: DIY-EFI Mailing List Subject: Flowbench help thanks Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:40:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I just wanted to thank everyone for the pointers on books on flowbenches. Now I've got some books to order and some reading to do. Michael Kasimirsky From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 09:09:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18948 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:09:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18944 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:09:07 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA15764; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:09:05 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00075 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:07:33 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:07:33 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805121307.JAA00075@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980512090210.007bb9c0@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:02:10 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: windat In-Reply-To: <01BD7DA5.A0621420@PJARAMAZ > Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Hows it this time - believe me, short of editing the DLLs I'm outta options :-{ >begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT >M>)\^(@\"`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` Still happening PJ :( Rip those DLL's apart!!! Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 09:10:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18980 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:10:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18974 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:10:23 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA15087 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 06:10:22 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: ION Eyes Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:11:12 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35b5ea56.119480921@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id JAA18977 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey Maties. I've been following up on the trail of tasty crumbs JoeZ left me with that one patent reference, and ONLY on the basis of going to the IBM Patent search page: http://www.patents.ibm.com/ and doing a search on "ionization" near "ignition", I see that there's a TON of stuff that's been disclosed and filed on the subject!! WAY more proportionately than SAE article submissions! Does that mean the smell of $$$$, or what? If you have a moment, go see what I mean. It will take me WEEKS to sift through all the stuff that's there! Whew, it's like when OBD II got passed, everybody and their brother suddenly was interested in "ionization detection of misfire". Well, their groveling, our gain. There doth appear to be also lots of useful ideas and discussion, just following the patent dependency/citing tree. And, to anchor our interest in a sound hope of practicality, there are the SAAB patents, that do indeed disclose to the last detail their actual, working implementation of the technology. One of the things I DID notice in my first pass scan of all the articles, if that there are lots of references to using this in inductive IGN, instead of capacitive discharge, and one patent in particular that says in essence, "well, our patent is to claim that the other patents don't *just* apply to CDI". So every patent after that dutifully cites this one. Guess that guy REALLY knew how to play the patent game, eh? Weird. The other thing I notice is the minute detail in which the circuits for doing this job are disclosed. I'm not used to this kinda detail from my ASIC background, of course, and it was a kinda shock to be transported back to the seemingly "tube circuit" days, when diff. guys argued over whether one cathode or resistor was better than another. As a result, instead of the usual vague "goes-into results in goes-outta" that I'm used to, the patents are an absolute joy to read, and a crystalline disclosure of circuit-thot. It seems almost a pity that this tech hasn't appeared yet in other car mfg's offerings. It doesn't appear that it's a function of exclusive patents on the part of SAAB, but rather that their guys actually got off thier patented duffs and actually built something that would work. Makes me admire them Saab guys all the more. Guess I'm a cynic, but I can just see it now, the marketing and engineering depts get together, and here's the drift, "Well, we could make it so you could detect detonation really reliably". "Yeah, but how much is that gonna ADD to the cost of the car, and how are we gonna be able to convince people this is really better". "Yeah, and isn't that likely to decrease our service department's revenues? Ya know them guys that buy turbo cars CAN'T expect them to live as long, and if we make them live longer by better detonation detection, we're only cutting into our service revenues, since longer life expectancy isn't, well, expected". And on and on. Makes you wonder how them SAAB guys ever got their system to see the light of day!! Probably only because there are still some engineers left in their management chain. Hee. Oh, one last thing I ALSO noticed in some of the patents, is what looks to be ion detection being done EVEN in distributor-equipped IGN systems. I still dunno how this can work, exactly, since I haven't read the patents, but most likely my assumption that this would work only on direct ignition is FALSE. Now there's a case of being wrong one could really enjoy! As I sift through this treasure-house, I'll letch'all know if I stumble over any really big gems. ION's lookin lovelier by the day. I can hear it now, our theme song wafting through the air, "When ION Eyes are smiling ...". Ooooh, my jokes are getting worse and worse, ain't they? Hee. Gar From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 09:11:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19025 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:11:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19020 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:11:15 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA15778; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:11:13 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00249 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:09:41 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:09:41 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805121309.JAA00249@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980512091529.007ab900@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:15:29 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Brake Cooling Circuits In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980512185956.007b57b0@mail.qonline.com.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980511151822.007a4100@xephic.dynip.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Greetings... >ie. DRUMS, front and rear Yech. >as you can see, the suggestion's you have made (apart from ducting) are all >out of the question. Again, Yech. >pump for this same amount of time.... but we want to be able to adjust a >maximum time setting.. probably around 5 seconds. The previous suggestion of a 555 timer (or the 7555, or any of the derivitives) could work. Even easier, a simple R/C network that shorts with a resistor when you hit the brake, and re-charges through another resistor when you release. The cap won't discharge all the way for short braking spells, and if it does, you time the R/C network to give you 5-6 seconds max. I prolly could put a schematic together... just not today or tomorrow... being hammered at work... in fact, I shouldn't be reading my 291 messages this morning :) Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 09:15:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19129 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:15:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from CSDAlpha2.sbu.ac.uk (csdalpha2.sbu.ac.uk [136.148.1.111]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19122 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:15:31 -0400 Received: from CSDAlpha1.sbu.ac.uk (csdalpha1.sbu.ac.uk [136.148.1.1]) by CSDAlpha2.sbu.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28094 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:20:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from e130-pc1.sbu.ac.uk by CSDAlpha1.sbu.ac.uk (5.65v4.0/1.1.10.5/06Nov96-0356PM) id AA31869; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:14:38 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980512141944.007f1ce0@unix.sbu.ac.uk> X-Sender: cameroa@unix.sbu.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:19:44 +0100 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Gus Cameron Subject: Re: 2 stroke injection In-Reply-To: <001601bd7d9b$cb5e9c20$657cbdc0@dilbert.nordson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If you want to try 2-stroke injection, check out the Bimota Duo (http://www.sepnet.com/cycle/misc.htm#Bimota is a place to start), a fuel injected 500cc twin bike. It was designed as a Grand Prix engine but it never made the power to compete with the V4's. Bimota tried to recoup the cost of development by turning it into a road bike but the emission controls made it into a pig. Looks nice though. gus At 07:47 12/05/98 -0400, gary wrote: >No 2 stroke but I have done lots of work with Bosch mechanical fuel >injection years ago. These units inject over a fairly small crank angle. I >would be concerned about proper lubrication or some uncontrolled stratified >charge with only a timed injector pulse(lots of air with a slug of fuel >swirling around). Injector pulse proportional to throttle would create some >problems as the VE curve has some great peaks and valleys. Just my 2 cents. > >Gary Derian > >>Anybody ever tried mechanical injection, like a diesel pump, on a 2 >>stroke gas engine?Figure the oil in the mix would handle lubrication OK >>- but would it work? Not talking direct injection, just port, timed >>injection on a V4 Evinrude.Pressure reduced from doozle pressure, and >>injection volume determined strictly by throttle opening, with possible >>manual mixture control. >> Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 09:19:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19270 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:19:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19266 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:19:49 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA15254 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 06:19:48 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:20:38 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35c24b10.144242187@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35584D40.EFA3152B@cris.com> In-Reply-To: <35584D40.EFA3152B@cris.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id JAA19267 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:13 -0500, "John A. Hess" wrote: >Pardon me if this is a dumb question; but, what does a diy_flowbench have >to do with diy_efi? WOW, dude if you think THIS is off-topic, you cain't have been around the group very long!?? Funny, the last time this subject came up for a good round of discussion, I don't remember a single sole that complained. Oh well, I s'pose the times, they are a-changin? Gar From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 09:32:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19497 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:32:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from crianlarich.indigo-avs.com (crianlarich.indigo-avs.com [194.200.210.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19493 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:32:16 -0400 Received: by crianlarich.indigo-avs.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BD7DB2.59D601D0@crianlarich.indigo-avs.com>; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:29:20 +0100 Message-ID: From: Robert Humphris To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:29:19 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 Encoding: 16 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu It has nothing to do with it, but where better a place to discuss it? I am not being faececious if there is a mailing list that deals with engine performance tuning I would be very interested in joining it. And while we are on the subject... I have a scrap turbo, and I was thinking of using the compressor wheel to generate the suction for a small flow bench. Is this a good idea? Rob Humphris > > >Pardon me if this is a dumb question; but, what does a diy_flowbench have >to do with diy_efi? > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 09:48:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19831 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:48:41 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19827 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:48:39 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-18.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.36]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id JAA04111 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:47:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:49:12 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7dac$bf0eb160$24198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: John A. Hess To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench >Pardon me if this is a dumb question; but, what does a diy_flowbench have >to do with diy_efi? > Everything. Take one detail, say motor control. What does an A/C motor have to do with EFI. Ya notice the the expression treat it as a stepper motor. A stepper motor is what GM uses as an IAC. Understanding airflow thru an engine, will allow you to place an injector in the optimin spot for trying a stratified charged engine. Controlling feed back currents and voltages, solenoid control is what fuel injection is. While some folks here have alot of education about such topics us HS Grads need to gather alot of exposure to grasp things. Some folks have learning disabilities, and have to go over things in painfully small detail to learn something. I for one truely appreciately hearing about motor control for water cooling brakes, and timers for such cause ya might need to control a EFI fuel pump using PWM, such as Holley does in their system. I do think part of this list is sharing ideas, and asking questions. While atta glance things may seem to go way off topic, when ya mull things over the links are rather short. Measuring airflow, is what EFI is about. Wheither on a flow bench or under a hood. You can control mixture at either end, if ya want. Just my .02 worth Bruce When ya wear a Cone Shaped Hat ya never know know where ya might wind up..... From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 09:57:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20131 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:57:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20127 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:57:31 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA15819; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:57:24 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAB00242 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:55:51 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:55:51 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805121355.JAB00242@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980512100132.007aba60@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:01:32 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: DIYEFI Flowbench In-Reply-To: <35584D40.EFA3152B@cris.com> References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Pardon me if this is a dumb question; but, what does a diy_flowbench have >to do with diy_efi? Not a whole lot directly... but its a good way to measure MAFs, MAPs, and supercharger outputs as well as possibly monitoring the airflow to each cylinder through the intake manifold. What these guys propose sounds a lot better than my shop-vac through the MAF method. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 10:20:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20586 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:20:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20582 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:20:45 -0400 Received: from smtp2.us.dell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id KAA15849; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:20:44 -0400 Received: from ccmail2.dell.com (ccmail2.us.dell.com [143.166.233.35]) by smtp2.us.dell.com (8.8.5/DELL-INET-10-14-1997) with SMTP id IAA00921 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:20:43 -0600 (GMT) Received: by ccmail2.dell.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA17219; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:20:22 -0500 Date: 12 May 98 09:20 CDT X400-Trace: us*attmail*dell computer; Arrival 12 May 98 09:20 CDT Action: Relayed Priority: normal P1-Message-Id: us*attmail*dell computer;0894982821/1914677459/1 Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text P1-Recipients: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Terry Sare To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-Id: <@m400gw.dell.com> Subject: RE: Brake Cooling Circuits Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Look on Nationals Web site http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM555.html for the 555 or other one shots. Fred's comment about attaching the brake switch is good, except that I would use a 555 in a one shot setup. That way you can adjust your on time a little more accurately and a 555 can drive a pump or whatever easier. Lousy ASCII Art Follows: +12V +12V Ground 1 | +12V | | Vcc 8 +12V Pump | Resister Ra Reset 4 +12V ___________| R 10k | |/ R | Output 3 --------RRR-------| 2n2222 |------------------------------- 2 Trigger |\______ Brake Switch |------- 7 discharge 555 | | |------- 6 Threshold 5 ----- Ground ground | | Cap C C (0.01uF) | | ground ground See LM555C datasheet for Ra and C and the real schematic -- Add a cap to ground on the trigger if to much noise. Add a 12 V zener across the pump so you don't blow the 2n2222. Lottsa bypass caps. Terry The previous suggestion of a 555 timer (or the 7555, or any of the derivitives) could work. Even easier, a simple R/C network that shorts with a resistor when you hit the brake, and re-charges through another resistor when you release. The cap won't discharge all the way for short braking spells, and if it does, you time the R/C network to give you 5-6 seconds max. From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 10:26:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20743 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:26:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20739 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:26:33 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yZG4D-0001T1C; Tue, 12 May 98 10:30 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:30:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: <35584D40.EFA3152B@cris.com> from "John A. Hess" at May 12, 98 08:23:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Pardon me if this is a dumb question; but, what does a diy_flowbench have > to do with diy_efi? cause if ya don't know how much air you'll be suckin through dem ports ya don't know how much fuel to be squrtin in on top of it Clive From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 10:31:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20843 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:31:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from smtp1.us.dell.com (smtp1.us.dell.com [143.166.224.25]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20839 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:31:11 -0400 Received: from ccmail2.dell.com (ccmail2.us.dell.com [143.166.233.35]) by smtp1.us.dell.com (8.8.5/DELL-INET-10-14-1997) with SMTP id IAA12409 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:31:00 -0600 (GMT) Received: by ccmail2.dell.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA18370; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:30:42 -0500 Date: 12 May 98 09:30 CDT X400-Trace: us*attmail*dell computer; Arrival 12 May 98 09:30 CDT Action: Relayed Priority: normal P1-Message-Id: us*attmail*dell computer;0894983441/1704832629/1 Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text P1-Recipients: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Terry Sare To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-Id: <@m400gw.dell.com> Subject: RE: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu snip >Pardon me if this is a dumb question; but, what does a diy_flowbench have >to do with diy_efi? > snip Bruce Replied: Everything. I agree with Bruce -- I have learned a lot when the subject digresses into other areas. The only bad part is when some people don't agree with each other and get nasty. Sad. Terry Sare From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 10:32:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20928 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:32:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ihgw2.lucent.com (ihgw2.lucent.com [207.19.48.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20924 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:32:43 -0400 Received: from emsr1.emsr.lucent.com by ihig2.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id JAA21436; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:22:12 -0500 Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id KAA00913 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu.smtp; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:32:08 -0400 From: kenkelly@lucent.com Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id KAA00897 for efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:32:07 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Received: from lucent.com (kkk) by pace10.wh.lucent.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA00596; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:29:29 -0400 Message-Id: <35585C16.897EADC4@lucent.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:26:30 -0400 Original-From: Ken Kelly Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en]C-EMS-1.3.1 (WinNT; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 Original-To: efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Jody, Thanks for the pointer. I'm not in the business, just a weekend tinkerer. $3700 is not in my budget. I only paid $2500 for my 96 camaro engine & trans that I'm putting in my Street rod!!! Does anyone know of a more reasonably priced solution for the individual. Hypertech is the only solution I've found that could be in my budget. There are a couple of nice shareware Eprom editors out there now. It's time to move on to the EEprom systems. I'm willing to try and come up with a simple piece of software to read and write the EEprom, but I haven't found any documents about the protocol GM used. If we could copy the EEprom to a bin, we might be able to start disassembling the LT1 programming. Just need the Peek and Poke protocol to get started. I have the ECM. Ken Jody Shapiro wrote: > > On Sat, 9 May 1998 kenkelly@lucent.com wrote: > > > 1) Has anyone found a shareware or reasonably priced software package to > > reprogram the 94 & up GM EEProm ECM's. > > Steve Cole of The Turbo Shop sells his Mastertune software that will do > reprograms of those PCM's. Not sure if you'll need the Pro version, > though ($3700)... :/ > > -Jody > > -- > 97 Blue Vortech Z28 - Best ET: 13.100 Best MPH: 111.24 (Goodyear RS-A's) > 361 rear-wheel hp @ 6000rpm, 359 rear-wheel ft-lbs @ 4400rpm > http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 11:17:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21886 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:17:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21882 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:17:26 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-28.brokersys.com [209.113.60.29]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19606 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:20:09 -0500 Message-ID: <35586840.45F8983F@brokersys.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:18:24 -0500 From: Walter Petermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: How do I reduce ignition noise. (HELP!!) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Chris Vandrachek wrote: > > To all in EFT land: > I have recently designed and built a simple EFT system based on a > Mot. HC12. All has gone well until now. I can't keep the MCU from > reseting whenever the ignition fires. I am only a sophomore EE student so > I don't exactly know where to start. > > Here is a quick outline: > -The MCU is physically isolated from the coil etc (5ft), but they > share the same battery. > -I'm using a standard points ignition...I'd do a electronic, but I > have to be done by this Friday. > -The MCU supply is regulated with only a LM2935 (an automotive > specific device). Only a .1 cap on the inputs. > -It seems that reset occurs most whenever a open arc is present, > arcing in distributor cap included. > -The problem is independent of my triggering pulse (from > coil)...so I'm guessing it is due to voltage spikes/drops or it is > "in the air" (EMF?). > > I don't know what to do and I gotta have the done by Friday for a design > competition. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!! > Thanks, > Chris Vondrachek > EE student, University of Portland > chrisv@egr.up.edu Chris Vandrachek wrote: > > To all in EFT land: > I have recently designed and built a simple EFT system based on a > Mot. HC12. All has gone well until now. I can't keep the MCU from > reseting whenever the ignition fires. I am only a sophomore EE student so > I don't exactly know where to start. > > Here is a quick outline: > -The MCU is physically isolated from the coil etc (5ft), but they > share the same battery. > -I'm using a standard points ignition...I'd do a electronic, but I > have to be done by this Friday. > -The MCU supply is regulated with only a LM2935 (an automotive > specific device). Only a .1 cap on the inputs. > -It seems that reset occurs most whenever a open arc is present, > arcing in distributor cap included. > -The problem is independent of my triggering pulse (from > coil)...so I'm guessing it is due to voltage spikes/drops or it is > "in the air" (EMF?). > > I don't know what to do and I gotta have the done by Friday for a design > competition. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!! > Thanks, > Chris Vondrachek > EE student, University of Portland > chrisv@egr.up.edu Chris, I would like to help but would need more info. My first guess (usually wrong!) would be to look at the circuit between the coil and the MCU. Have you tried an inductor in series with the power supply of the MCU board? If you like, email a circuit diagram. Walter From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 11:32:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22188 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:32:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ihgw1.lucent.com (ihgw1.lucent.com [207.19.48.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22184 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:32:48 -0400 Received: from emsr1.emsr.lucent.com by ihig1.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id KAA05731; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:56:12 -0500 Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id LAA05163 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu.smtp; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:32:22 -0400 From: kenkelly@lucent.com Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id LAA05150 for efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:32:21 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Received: from lucent.com (kkk) by pace10.wh.lucent.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA05462; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:29:29 -0400 Message-Id: <35586A27.7C776AAC@lucent.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:26:31 -0400 Original-From: Ken Kelly Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en]C-EMS-1.3.1 (WinNT; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 Original-To: efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer References: <3554637C.186B087F@lucent.com> <3.0.5.32.19980512194723.007c52a0@mail.qonline.com.au> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Matt, Interesting product! I took a quick look at the site. I still haven't quite figured it out yet. Looks like they actually replace the Memcal with a custom board. They do list some 5.7 liter & 4L60E PCM's, but their discussion sounds like our older TPI batch fire systems rather than the Sequential LT1. I will look at the numbers on my PCM tonight and see if it is one of the ones they support. It is not obvious if there Memcal will work on the LT-1, or why they replace the memcal. Looks like the price starts at $695 in Australian $, anyone know the current exchange rate? Ken Matthew Harding wrote: > > At 11:38 11/05/98 -0400, you wrote: > >On Sat, 9 May 1998 kenkelly@lucent.com wrote: > > > >> 1) Has anyone found a shareware or reasonably priced software package to > >> reprogram the 94 & up GM EEProm ECM's. > > > >Steve Cole of The Turbo Shop sells his Mastertune software that will do > >reprograms of those PCM's. Not sure if you'll need the Pro version, > >though ($3700)... :/ > > > >-Jody > > > >-- > >97 Blue Vortech Z28 - Best ET: 13.100 Best MPH: 111.24 (Goodyear RS-A's) > >361 rear-wheel hp @ 6000rpm, 359 rear-wheel ft-lbs @ 4400rpm > >http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ > > I was put onto an Australian site recently, they have kits including all > software/cables/boards etc to program the Delco EMS's in most of our Holden > (GM) cars. > > have a look at.... > > http://white.aljan.com.au/~bradhost/ > > i really don't know if it would be at all of use to anyone, but hey..... From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 11:36:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22290 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:36:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22286 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:36:58 -0400 From: goflo@pacbell.net Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-207-215-142-180.sndg02.pacbell.net [207.215.142.180]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id IAA13037 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <355869E3.77FD@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:25:23 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-PBXG (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensors & ION Eyes References: <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35565267.2EC950DC@mwt.net> <35656917.20857796@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35575C75.2B45@pacbell.net> <35926dbf.87585234@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <3557BCD9.5F1A@pacbell.net> <35aedef5.116567703@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Gar - > Well, yeah, that's what I always thot was the point of them Dwyer > two-piece pitot tubes, one to measure static, the other dynamic Exactly. Was trying to separate the two parameters (pressure and velocity) for clarity. Failed dismally. Oh well. > you HAVE to assume the velocity profile of the plumbing you're > using, in order to get FLOW, don'tcha? Idea is to measure pressure and velocity in a tube of known diameter - Velocity profile of such is uncomplicated, accurately dimensioned pieces of pipe are easy to fab, and your 12" long 3" dia duct (to pick some numbers) should give very similar results to mine. Similar considerations apply to FI app. I like your MAF idea - I'm willing to cal them on my bench. I'm sure we can work out a protocol that'll put us all on the same page. Of course where (and if!) NBS is in my bench's lineage is another matter. Jack From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 12:01:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22954 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:01:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22950 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:01:45 -0400 Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id MAA22021; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:01:45 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts002d11.aus-tx.concentric.net [206.173.144.47]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id MAA25115; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:01:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980512110128.006b1b44@pop3.cris.com> X-Sender: johnhess@pop3.cris.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:01:28 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: John Hess Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench In-Reply-To: <35c24b10.144242187@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <35584D40.EFA3152B@cris.com> <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35584D40.EFA3152B@cris.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The times may not be changing all that much. Just the sheer volume of off topic subjects are inundating me and this was the one I was looking at when the last straw fell. At 06:20 AM 5/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:13 -0500, "John A. Hess" >wrote: > >>Pardon me if this is a dumb question; but, what does a diy_flowbench have >>to do with diy_efi? > >WOW, dude if you think THIS is off-topic, you cain't have been around >the group very long!?? Funny, the last time this subject came up for a >good round of discussion, I don't remember a single sole that >complained. Oh well, I s'pose the times, they are a-changin? > >Gar > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 12:05:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23024 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:05:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23020 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:05:19 -0400 Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id MAA22715; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:05:19 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts002d11.aus-tx.concentric.net [206.173.144.47]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id MAA26214; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980512110503.006b7c18@pop3.cris.com> X-Sender: johnhess@pop3.cris.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:05:03 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: John Hess Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer In-Reply-To: <35585C16.897EADC4@lucent.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If you only want to use it on a single engine applicaton, TTS (The Turbo Shop) sells a version of Master Tune for a single application for $295.00. At 10:26 AM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >Jody, > Thanks for the pointer. I'm not in the business, just a >weekend tinkerer. $3700 is not in my budget. I only paid >$2500 for my 96 camaro engine & trans that I'm putting in my >Street rod!!! > > Does anyone know of a more reasonably priced solution for >the individual. Hypertech is the only solution I've found >that could be in my budget. There are a couple of nice >shareware Eprom editors out there now. It's time to move on >to the EEprom systems. I'm willing to try and come up with a >simple piece of software to read and write the EEprom, but I >haven't found any documents about the protocol GM used. > > If we could copy the EEprom to a bin, we might be able to >start disassembling the LT1 programming. Just need the Peek >and Poke protocol to get started. I have the ECM. > > Ken > > >Jody Shapiro wrote: >> >> On Sat, 9 May 1998 kenkelly@lucent.com wrote: >> >> > 1) Has anyone found a shareware or reasonably priced software package to >> > reprogram the 94 & up GM EEProm ECM's. >> >> Steve Cole of The Turbo Shop sells his Mastertune software that will do >> reprograms of those PCM's. Not sure if you'll need the Pro version, >> though ($3700)... :/ >> >> -Jody >> >> -- >> 97 Blue Vortech Z28 - Best ET: 13.100 Best MPH: 111.24 (Goodyear RS-A's) >> 361 rear-wheel hp @ 6000rpm, 359 rear-wheel ft-lbs @ 4400rpm >> http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 12:29:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23513 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:29:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from problem.tantech.com ([206.130.240.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23509 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:29:06 -0400 Received: by problem.tantech.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #25) id m0yZHyr-0001dQC; Tue, 12 May 98 12:32 EDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:32:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" In-Reply-To: from "Robert Humphris" at May 12, 98 02:29:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > It has nothing to do with it, but where better a place to discuss it? I > am not being faececious if there is a mailing list that deals with > engine performance tuning I would be very interested in joining it. > > And while we are on the subject... I have a scrap turbo, and I was > thinking of using the compressor wheel to generate the suction for a > small flow bench. Is this a good idea? you would have to gear it up massively to get any real suction from it tubos need to spin in the 50-100k range to work Clive From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 12:42:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23835 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:42:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from jester.ti.com (jester.ti.com [192.94.94.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23831 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:42:53 -0400 Received: from reliant.micro.ti.com ([158.218.63.15]) by jester.ti.com (8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02192 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:42:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from aspc0756.micro.ti.com (aspc0756.micro.ti.com [158.218.48.41]) by reliant.micro.ti.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07226 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:42:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980512164449.00e043ec@pcmail.micro.ti.com> X-Sender: jpfa@pcmail.micro.ti.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:44:49 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: James Paul Subject: Re: How do I reduce ignition noise. (HELP!!) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Chris, A few things I can think of right away would be..... 1) Put the micro and it's associated circuitry inside a metal box and ground the box. 2) Try using a ferrite choke where the wires enter the box. Just wrap the wires through the ferrite core a couple of times. This should reduce RFI significantly. By the way, RFI is the culprit. It is generated because of the high tension spark discharge is so wide band, it covers most of the RF spectrum. Just like lightning does to an AM radio. 3) Use a low value resistor ( <2 ohms) shunted by a low value (.01 - .05 uF) capacitance in the power line to the microcontroller unit to aid isolation from the battery that also feeds the ignition system. 4) Add a .1 to .5 uF capacitor between power and ground at the micro to aid in transient suppression. You might want to add a 10 to 20 uF Tantalum cap here too in parallel with the .1 to .5 uF unit to aid transient suppression even more. 5) Bring ALL ground leads to a common point to prevent Ground loop currents. Hope these suggestions help. Let me know how you do on your project. Regards, Jim At 10:18 AM 5/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >Chris Vandrachek wrote: >> >> To all in EFT land: >> I have recently designed and built a simple EFT system based on a >> Mot. HC12. All has gone well until now. I can't keep the MCU from >> reseting whenever the ignition fires. I am only a sophomore EE student so >> I don't exactly know where to start. >> >> Here is a quick outline: >> -The MCU is physically isolated from the coil etc (5ft), but they >> share the same battery. >> -I'm using a standard points ignition...I'd do a electronic, but I >> have to be done by this Friday. >> -The MCU supply is regulated with only a LM2935 (an automotive >> specific device). Only a .1 cap on the inputs. >> -It seems that reset occurs most whenever a open arc is present, >> arcing in distributor cap included. >> -The problem is independent of my triggering pulse (from >> coil)...so I'm guessing it is due to voltage spikes/drops or it is >> "in the air" (EMF?). >> >> I don't know what to do and I gotta have the done by Friday for a design >> competition. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!! >> Thanks, >> Chris Vondrachek >> EE student, University of Portland >> chrisv@egr.up.edu > >Chris Vandrachek wrote: > >> > >> To all in EFT land: > >> I have recently designed and built a simple EFT system based on a > >> Mot. HC12. All has gone well until now. I can't keep the MCU from > >> reseting whenever the ignition fires. I am only a sophomore EE student so > >> I don't exactly know where to start. > >> > >> Here is a quick outline: > >> -The MCU is physically isolated from the coil etc (5ft), but they > >> share the same battery. > >> -I'm using a standard points ignition...I'd do a electronic, but I > >> have to be done by this Friday. > >> -The MCU supply is regulated with only a LM2935 (an automotive > >> specific device). Only a .1 cap on the inputs. > >> -It seems that reset occurs most whenever a open arc is present, > >> arcing in distributor cap included. > >> -The problem is independent of my triggering pulse (from > >> coil)...so I'm guessing it is due to voltage spikes/drops or it is > >> "in the air" (EMF?). > >> > >> I don't know what to do and I gotta have the done by Friday for a design > >> competition. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!! > >> Thanks, > >> Chris Vondrachek > >> EE student, University of Portland > >> chrisv@egr.up.edu > > > > Chris, > > I would like to help but would need more info. My first > >guess (usually wrong!) would be to look at the circuit > >between the coil and the MCU. > >Have you tried an inductor in series with the power supply > >of the MCU board? > > If you like, email a circuit diagram. > > > > Walter > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 13:04:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24283 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:04:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imes.com ([209.184.4.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24279 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:04:18 -0400 Received: from elvis by imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA21108; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:06:39 -0500 Message-ID: <355837DF.13B9@imes.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:51:59 +0000 From: steve ravet Organization: International Meta Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Questions about EGOR References: <9805120338.AA27707@abc.az05.bull.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >So I guess I'd need to put a 5:1 resistor divider on EGORs output, run >that to the standard O2 input, and change the 4 or 5 PROM bytes needed >to deal with the different voltage profile. Ludis, can you expand on this a little? Is it that simple to change the EGO profile in the ECM? -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve@imes.com From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 13:41:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25066 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:41:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25062 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:41:06 -0400 From: goflo@pacbell.net Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-207-215-149-197.sndg02.pacbell.net [207.215.149.197]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id KAA26519 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <355889D8.505F@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:41:44 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-PBXG (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench References: <35584D40.EFA3152B@cris.com> <35528973.5A57@pacbell.net> <138CECC3D20@psc.fp.co.nz> <35582076.2264265@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> <35584D40.EFA3152B@cris.com> <3.0.1.32.19980512110128.006b1b44@pop3.cris.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >On Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:13 -0500, "John A. Hess" > >wrote: > > > >>Pardon me if this is a dumb question; but, what does a diy_flowbench have > >>to do with diy_efi? Hmmm. Torches ... the glint of pitchforks in the distance? Possibly as relevant as how much water you can spray on your brakes before the guy behind you turns on his wipers? Which fascinated me, by the way, being innocent of racing brake tech. All seriousness aside, I'm here for FI, of which accurate air flow measurement is a significant component, and indeed the weak link in the loop - You would'nt need a loop if the initial measurement was accurate! My two pfennig. Pace Joachim. I'm particularly interested in MAF schemes - If they end up on flow benches that's ok with me. In fact if Fred is listening how 'bout telling us about your shop vac/flow bench with the MAF sensor? I guarantee a respectful audience of one. Jack From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 13:52:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25268 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:52:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from b137a5.hacc.edu (b137a5.hacc.edu [199.254.212.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25262 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:52:47 -0400 Received: by b137a5.hacc.edu from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Tue, 12 May 1998 13:59:53 -0400 Received: by b137a5.hacc.edu from alsites.hacc.edu (199.254.212.150::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.6); Tue, 12 May 1998 13:59:52 -0400 From: "Al Sites" To: Subject: Re: small PC used as a Car mp3 player Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:51:13 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7dce$8e4eb620$96d4fec7@alsites.hacc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I just spoke to Ray at Advantech. Pricing for the "Biscuit PC" are as follows Board: $357 Wires: $47 166mmx CPU: $121 CPU Fan: $10 32M Ram: $62 These prices are US. Ray's phone # 408.330.9399 x507 From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 14:02:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25464 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:02:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from algw2.lucent.com (algw2.lucent.com [205.147.213.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25459 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:02:26 -0400 Received: from emsr1.emsr.lucent.com by alig2.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id OAA28518; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:11:04 -0400 Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id OAA14112 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu.smtp; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:02:14 -0400 From: kenkelly@lucent.com Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id OAA14095 for efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:02:13 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Received: from lucent.com (kkk) by pace10.wh.lucent.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA18690; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:01:21 -0400 Message-Id: <35588DC1.822F2784@lucent.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:58:25 -0400 Original-From: Ken Kelly Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en]C-EMS-1.3.1 (WinNT; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 Original-To: efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer References: <3.0.1.32.19980512110503.006b7c18@pop3.cris.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu John, $295 sounds a lot better. Do you have a Web site or phone # for them? I did a web search for TTS, The Turbo Shop, Master Tune, and MasterTune. It came up with nothing that seemed to match your description. Ken John Hess wrote: > > If you only want to use it on a single engine applicaton, TTS (The Turbo > Shop) sells a version of Master Tune for a single application for $295.00. > > At 10:26 AM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Jody, > > Thanks for the pointer. I'm not in the business, just a > >weekend tinkerer. $3700 is not in my budget. I only paid > >$2500 for my 96 camaro engine & trans that I'm putting in my > >Street rod!!! > > > > Does anyone know of a more reasonably priced solution for > >the individual. Hypertech is the only solution I've found > >that could be in my budget. There are a couple of nice > >shareware Eprom editors out there now. It's time to move on > >to the EEprom systems. I'm willing to try and come up with a > >simple piece of software to read and write the EEprom, but I > >haven't found any documents about the protocol GM used. > > > > If we could copy the EEprom to a bin, we might be able to > >start disassembling the LT1 programming. Just need the Peek > >and Poke protocol to get started. I have the ECM. > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 14:16:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25740 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:16:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25736 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:16:18 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-41.brokersys.com [209.113.60.42]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25281 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:19:08 -0500 Message-ID: <35589234.3E9A94FE@brokersys.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:17:24 -0500 From: Walter Petermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: How do I reduce ignition noise. (HELP!!) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Chris Vandrachek wrote: > > To all in EFT land: > I have recently designed and built a simple EFT system based on a > Mot. HC12. All has gone well until now. I can't keep the MCU from > reseting whenever the ignition fires. I am only a sophomore EE student so > I don't exactly know where to start. > > Here is a quick outline: > -The MCU is physically isolated from the coil etc (5ft), but they > share the same battery. > -I'm using a standard points ignition...I'd do a electronic, but I > have to be done by this Friday. > -The MCU supply is regulated with only a LM2935 (an automotive > specific device). Only a .1 cap on the inputs. > -It seems that reset occurs most whenever a open arc is present, > arcing in distributor cap included. > -The problem is independent of my triggering pulse (from > coil)...so I'm guessing it is due to voltage spikes/drops or it is > "in the air" (EMF?). > > I don't know what to do and I gotta have the done by Friday for a design > competition. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!! > Thanks, > Chris Vondrachek > EE student, University of Portland > chrisv@egr.up.edu Chris, one more thought: Are you sure that it's not a software problem? When the coil fires are you branching and possibly overwriting some data with the stack? Walter From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 14:57:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26550 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:57:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.160]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26546 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:57:11 -0400 Received: from default - 208.254.24.74 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:56:23 -0700 Message-ID: <007901bd7dd7$a56d8260$4a18fed0@default> From: "H. J. Zivnak" To: Subject: Re: ION Eyes Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:55:34 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Well Alice, things keep getting curiouser and curiouser........ I was poking around at http://www.mecel.se/ on the patents page (with links to fifteen different patents,including the original one!) when I spotted a note that reads "Some of the patents listed below were originally issued the the name of Saab-Scania AB, but have been transferred to Mecel AB when Mecel became a wholly owned subsidiary of Delco Electronics Corp." A dim light came on and I thought I remembered something about GM buying Saab. I checked it out this morning and sure enough.... Saab is a division of GM/Opel! (Sort of a Saab story ) On their partners page Mecel has Delco Electronics and Delphi Automotive Systems at the top of the list. Imagine that! For those of you not familiar with the Delphi name, this is the group responsible for selling GM products and technology to other OEMs. Check out delphiauto.com/energy/energycatalog.html . Click on Ignition Subsystems and (you guessed it!) you'll find "Ion Sense Ignition". If its not under the hood of your Chevy today, it will probably be soon. Have fun, Joe -----Original Message----- From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 7:15 AM Subject: ION Eyes >It seems almost a pity that this tech hasn't appeared yet in other car >mfg's offerings. It doesn't appear that it's a function of exclusive >patents on the part of SAAB, but rather that their guys actually got off >their patented duffs and actually built something that would work. Makes >me admire them Saab guys all the more. > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 15:49:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27232 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:49:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.160]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27225 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:48:44 -0400 Received: from default - 208.254.24.204 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:48:12 -0700 Message-ID: <001801bd7dde$e2deb5e0$cc18fed0@default> From: "H. J. Zivnak" To: Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:48:05 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Kinda feel like makin water instead of holden it? :-) Joe -----Original Message----- From: John Hess To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 9:49 AM Subject: Re: Pressure Sensor for Flow Bench >The times may not be changing all that much. Just the sheer volume of off >topic subjects are inundating me and this was the one I was looking at when >the last straw fell. > >At 06:20 AM 5/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >>On Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:13 -0500, "John A. Hess" >>wrote: >> >>>Pardon me if this is a dumb question; but, what does a diy_flowbench have >>>to do with diy_efi? >> >>WOW, dude if you think THIS is off-topic, you cain't have been around >>the group very long!?? Funny, the last time this subject came up for a >>good round of discussion, I don't remember a single sole that >>complained. Oh well, I s'pose the times, they are a-changin? >> >>Gar >> >> >> From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 15:50:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27246 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:50:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27242 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:50:24 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA29523 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:50:25 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: ION Eyes Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:51:15 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35dea512.167284421@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <007901bd7dd7$a56d8260$4a18fed0@default> In-Reply-To: <007901bd7dd7$a56d8260$4a18fed0@default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id PAA27243 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Tue, 12 May 1998 11:55:34 -0700, "H. J. Zivnak" wrote: >Well Alice, things keep getting curiouser and curiouser........ > >I was poking around at http://www.mecel.se/ on the patents page (with links >to fifteen different patents,including the original one!) when I spotted a >note that reads "Some of the patents listed below were originally issued the >the name of Saab-Scania AB, but have been transferred to Mecel AB when Mecel >became a wholly owned subsidiary of Delco Electronics Corp." A dim light >came on and I thought I remembered something about GM buying Saab. I checked >it out this morning and sure enough.... Saab is a division of GM/Opel! (Sort >of a Saab story ) Truly. Let's hope it's not just part of the "food-chain paradigm", and they eat the goose that's laying these golden eggs. Yeah, that's what Jim Crance was refering to when he said he used to be able to play with the Saab stuff alot more, until GM took them over. >Check out delphiauto.com/energy/energycatalog.html . Click on Ignition >Subsystems and (you guessed it!) you'll find "Ion Sense Ignition". Huh. The wonders of "acquisition". Reminds me of the Borg, on Star Trek. Heh. Gar From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 16:02:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27521 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 16:02:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from bert.acesag.auburn.edu (bert.acesag.auburn.edu [131.204.46.47]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27517 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 16:02:41 -0400 Received: from bert (bert [131.204.46.47]) by bert.acesag.auburn.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA01710 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:02:40 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:02:39 -0500 (CDT) From: "Gregory A. Parmer" X-Sender: gparmer@bert To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Misc 101 stuff In-Reply-To: <01bd7c1a$e2b5c880$1a198fd1@nacelp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Sun, 10 May 1998, Bruce Plecan wrote: > Is there anyone working on the (747) 101 project that needs something?. It's getting there, slowly... I grabbed a shareware binary/hex editor from http://www.bpsoft.com (Hex Workshop) to do some chip compares. Looks to be pretty nice so far. Even does a byte-by-byte compare of 2 bin files. General Device http://www.generaldevice.com (916-393-1655) had some reasonable EPROM programmers. They sell Needham's and others. EPROMS.EPROMS.EPROMS I've ordered some (~30) extra EPROMs (pulls) if anyone is interested. They were $1ea+ship. Now a coupla questions: 1) Where to get that darned "pink book" that describes this delco derivative of the Motorola 6801! I was trying to find the instruction set and memory map without bugging Ludis anymore. :) Motorola is busy pushing 68HC11s on their website. 2) Where'd you folks get assemblers/disassemblers? Are they shareware or freeware? Bruce-- I doubt I'll do the '730, but I would like to dissect the '747 to death... ...and maybe the '783 also, pending my understanding of the CPU. -greg From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 17:32:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28799 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:32:06 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from buffy.tpgi.com.au (buffy.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28795 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:32:03 -0400 Received: (from smtpd@localhost) by buffy.tpgi.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01779 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 07:32:37 +1000 Received: from gou-ppp-065.tpgi.com.au(203.29.140.65), claiming to be "acer-p166" via SMTP by buffy.tpgi.com.au, id smtpda01766; Wed May 13 07:32:29 1998 Message-ID: <3558C12A.285B@tpgi.com.au> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:37:46 +1000 From: Justin Albury X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Whattza Holden?. References: <1.5.4.32.19980511212457.0067d424@email.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Eileen Tholey wrote: > > The holden heads do not have a siamesed ports like the SBC. They look like > a BBC. But how similar are these Holden V8s to the new small block II? No > need to go into great lenght, just curious. > EFI heads are siamesed ! non efi heads are not! sorry but i havnot seen the new BBC II yet Justin From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 17:39:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28899 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:39:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28894 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:39:15 -0400 Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.68.6.60]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA19979 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:38:55 +0000 Message-ID: <3558C166.34C0A612@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:38:46 -0400 From: Thomas Matthews X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Was Misc 101 stuff- now burners References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > General Device > http://www.generaldevice.com (916-393-1655) > had some reasonable EPROM programmers. They > sell Needham's and others. > I just bought one from GDI, not too bad a unit, but if you are looking at a MCT MEP 1,4, or 8, better have an old computer laying around... Not rated to work according to MEP's docs with anything faster than a 25 Mhz CPU... I used an old 286 laying around the house and it works perfectly with that. BTW, I bought the MEP 4A for $115... Tom From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 18:29:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29583 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:29:41 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imes.com ([209.184.4.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29573 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:29:35 -0400 Received: from elvis by imes.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA00056; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:32:02 -0500 Message-ID: <35588422.61A5@imes.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:17:22 +0000 From: steve ravet Organization: International Meta Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diyefi Subject: "Black Oak" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu There was some comment previously about a powerPC for automotive applications. Here's a bit of info that I got from a friend of mine over at Summerset: See: Electronic Design, April 6, 1998 for more details. They call it "a full data aquisition, data processing, and control system all integrated onto a single piece of silicon." I recommend tracking down this article. See if anyone has it, or if you can find it on the web. It has a 32-bit 40MHz POwerPC core (unsure of which one), an FPU, flash memory, static RAM, plus a memory controller, A-to-D converters, CAN 2.0B controllers, timer-processor units, UARTs, and some other stuff. -- Steve Ravet International Meta Systems http://www.imes.com steve@imes.com From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 18:47:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29807 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:47:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mozart.bcit.bc.ca (aix4.bcit.bc.ca [142.232.189.164]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29803 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:47:00 -0400 Received: from pfenske (usr015.bcit.bc.ca [142.232.188.115]) by mozart.bcit.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA15502 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:45:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:45:40 -0700 Message-Id: <199805122245.PAA15502@mozart.bcit.bc.ca> X-Sender: ffnsp955@pophost.bcit.bc.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: peter paul fenske Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Ken I have been looking at the 8051 PCM. Aldl communication is not difficult. Just use the RS232 interface and software that was posted to this net previously. However to up load and download eeprom contents is a wee bit more difficult. But similiar to aldl comms email me if interested :peter At 10:26 AM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >Jody, > Thanks for the pointer. I'm not in the business, just a >weekend tinkerer. $3700 is not in my budget. I only paid >$2500 for my 96 camaro engine & trans that I'm putting in my >Street rod!!! > > Does anyone know of a more reasonably priced solution for >the individual. Hypertech is the only solution I've found >that could be in my budget. There are a couple of nice >shareware Eprom editors out there now. It's time to move on >to the EEprom systems. I'm willing to try and come up with a >simple piece of software to read and write the EEprom, but I >haven't found any documents about the protocol GM used. > > If we could copy the EEprom to a bin, we might be able to >start disassembling the LT1 programming. Just need the Peek >and Poke protocol to get started. I have the ECM. > > Ken > > >Jody Shapiro wrote: >> >> On Sat, 9 May 1998 kenkelly@lucent.com wrote: >> >> > 1) Has anyone found a shareware or reasonably priced software package to >> > reprogram the 94 & up GM EEProm ECM's. >> >> Steve Cole of The Turbo Shop sells his Mastertune software that will do >> reprograms of those PCM's. Not sure if you'll need the Pro version, >> though ($3700)... :/ >> >> -Jody >> >> -- >> 97 Blue Vortech Z28 - Best ET: 13.100 Best MPH: 111.24 (Goodyear RS-A's) >> 361 rear-wheel hp @ 6000rpm, 359 rear-wheel ft-lbs @ 4400rpm >> http://www.bit-net.com/~jshapiro/z28/ > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 19:14:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA30165 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:14:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pilot.is.chrysler.com (firewall-user@pilot.is.chrysler.com [204.189.94.37]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA30161 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:14:30 -0400 From: jb24@chrysler.com Received: by pilot.is.chrysler.com; id TAA12029; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:14:54 -0400 Received: from odnpspr2-nf0.oddc.chrysler.com(129.9.202.74) by pilot.is.chrysler.com via smap (4.1) id xma012021; Tue, 12 May 98 19:14:42 -0400 Received: from ODEMXPR1.ODDC.CHRYSLER.COM (odemxpr1-dgen0.oddc.chrysler.com [129.9.196.20]) by odnpspr2-nf0.oddc.chrysler.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/chrysler-relay.1.2-kcd) with SMTP id TAA01557 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ODEMXPR1.ODDC.CHRYSLER.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 2.0) with snapi via NOTES id 0041200006330628; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:13:29 -0400 To: Subject: Re: 2 stroke injection Message-ID: <0041200006330628000002L082*@MHS> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:13:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Actually, the Bimota Vdue was a pig because of poor process control. Basically their cylinder manufacturer wasn't keeping a close eye on the transfer port location and turned a road-race motor into a lawn-tractor. Honda has several papers published on EFI on two-strokes. Big thing to remember is influence of pipe tuning on VE. Which is why they had cylinder pressure transducers hooked into the ECU, instead of a simple speed-density. Other thing is misfire detection, cause misfire causes pipe tuning (temperature) to change instantly and the ECU needs to lean out or the cylinder dies of way-too-rich. A MAF can do it, but you need one MAF per cylinder. Anyhow, carbs do the same job for a whole lot less complexity. ---------------------- Forwarded by John R Bucknell/JTE/Chrysler on 05/12/98 03:50 PM --------------------------- owner-diy_efi @ efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu 05/12/98 12:02 PM Please respond to diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ SMTP To: diy_efi @ efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu @ SMTP cc: Subject: Re: 2 stroke injection If you want to try 2-stroke injection, check out the Bimota Duo (http://www.sepnet.com/cycle/misc.htm#Bimota is a place to start), a fuel injected 500cc twin bike. It was designed as a Grand Prix engine but it never made the power to compete with the V4's. Bimota tried to recoup the cost of development by turning it into a road bike but the emission controls made it into a pig. Looks nice though. gus At 07:47 12/05/98 -0400, gary wrote: >No 2 stroke but I have done lots of work with Bosch mechanical fuel >injection years ago. These units inject over a fairly small crank angle. I >would be concerned about proper lubrication or some uncontrolled strati fied >charge with only a timed injector pulse(lots of air with a slug of fuel >swirling around). Injector pulse proportional to throttle would create some >problems as the VE curve has some great peaks and valleys. Just my 2 cents. > >Gary Derian > >>Anybody ever tried mechanical injection, like a diesel pump, on a 2 >>stroke gas engine?Figure the oil in the mix would handle lubrication OK >>- but would it work? Not talking direct injection, just port, timed >>injection on a V4 Evinrude.Pressure reduced from doozle pressure, and >>injection volume determined strictly by throttle opening, with possible >>manual mixture control. >> Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 19:42:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA30565 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:42:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from online.no (pilt.online.no [193.212.1.34]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA30561 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:42:41 -0400 Received: from siemens-nixdorf (ti34a06-0044.dialup.online.no [130.67.65.172]) by online.no (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA25772 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 01:42:40 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199805122342.BAA25772@online.no> From: "Espen Hilde" To: Subject: Re: 2 stroke injection Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:38:49 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu if I had the time and the money,I would try fitting a timed seqential efi to a two stroker.I would figure out where to put 2 injectors,over the transfer ports and just under ekshaust port( in higth) ,I would aim them sligtly uppwards against the spark plug.I think I had to use two injectors because of the short time to inject. standard injectors directly into the cylinder..... Mercury dfi uses 80% less fuel at idle...... I tryed to take a exshaust HC test on a Mercury 200 efi ,It showed the same figures as if you put the probe inside a gas tank and messure the fumes.... 2000-3000 ppm HC very little difference in consumption at max torque.dfi better at slow running and high rpm. Espen Hilde > From: Clare Snyder > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: 2 stroke injection > Date: 12. mai 1998 05:18 > > Anybody ever tried mechanical injection, like a diesel pump, on a 2 > stroke gas engine?Figure the oil in the mix would handle lubrication OK > - but would it work? Not talking direct injection, just port, timed > injection on a V4 Evinrude.Pressure reduced from doozle pressure, and > injection volume determined strictly by throttle opening, with possible > manual mixture control. > -- Maybe you must have some oil coming in by the air stream to, to lubricate the crank shaft bearings. > _/\_ > --|-----([])-----|-- > S 0/ \0 B > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > E-Mail service is back to normal > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > OR > Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the > spammers!!! > It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of > Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 20:16:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA31042 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:16:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from soleil.acomp.usf.edu (soleil.acomp.usf.edu [131.247.100.19]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA31037 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:16:48 -0400 Received: from centauri (tampappp256.net.usf.edu [131.247.167.0]) by soleil.acomp.usf.edu (8.8.8/8.6.5) with SMTP id UAA16255 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805130017.UAA16255@soleil.acomp.usf.edu> From: "Jake Lindeke" Organization: Supra Owners Group International To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:23:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: small PC used as a Car mp3 player Priority: normal In-reply-to: <01bd7dce$8e4eb620$96d4fec7@alsites.hacc.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.00 beta 6) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > I just spoke to Ray at Advantech. Pricing for the "Biscuit PC" are as > follows > > Board: $357 > Wires: $47 > 166mmx CPU: $121 > CPU Fan: $10 > 32M Ram: $62 > > These prices are US. Ray's phone # 408.330.9399 x507 Is this the small computer that fits in a din slot in a car? --Jake Lindeke --SOGI South-East Chapter Coordinator --http://sesogi.bsfh.org From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 20:49:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA31466 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:49:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from leary.huron.net (root@leary.huron.net [205.150.207.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA31462 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:49:12 -0400 Received: from snyder.huron.net (ppp38-ts2-kw.huron.net [205.150.207.87]) by leary.huron.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA23001 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:45:43 -0400 Message-ID: <3558EEEC.DB5@huron.net> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:53:01 -0400 From: Clare Snyder Organization: Snyder Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: 2 stroke injection References: <199805122342.BAA25772@online.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Espen Hilde wrote: > > if I had the time and the money,I would try fitting a timed seqential efi > to a > two stroker.I would figure out where to put 2 injectors,over the transfer > ports and > just under ekshaust port( in higth) ,I would aim them sligtly uppwards > against the spark > plug.I think I had to use two injectors because of the short time to > inject. > standard injectors directly into the cylinder..... > Mercury dfi uses 80% less fuel at idle...... > I tryed to take a exshaust HC test on a Mercury 200 efi ,It showed the > same > figures as if you put the probe inside a gas tank and messure the fumes.... > 2000-3000 ppm HC > very little difference in consumption at max torque.dfi better at slow > running and high rpm. > Espen Hilde > > From: Clare Snyder > > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > > Subject: 2 stroke injection > > Date: 12. mai 1998 05:18 > > > > Anybody ever tried mechanical injection, like a diesel pump, on a 2 > > stroke gas engine?Figure the oil in the mix would handle lubrication OK > > - but would it work? Not talking direct injection, just port, timed > > injection on a V4 Evinrude.Pressure reduced from doozle pressure, and > > injection volume determined strictly by throttle opening, with possible > > manual mixture control. > > -- > Maybe you must have some oil coming in by the air stream to, to lubricate > the crank shaft bearings. > > _/\_ > > --|-----([])-----|-- > > S 0/ \0 B > > Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back > > E-Mail service is back to normal > > To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages > > Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca > > OR > > Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the > > spammers!!! > > It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of > > Turkeys!!! with DFI, how do they handle the crankshaft lubrication? Do they just inject oil spray into the crankcase at the inlet port? Somehow this oil has to travel throughout the engine.I am thinking more along the line of "port" injection, like in an SFI automotive system. -- _/\_ --|-----([])-----|-- S 0/ \0 B Alls well that ends well!! www.snyder.on.ca is back E-Mail service is back to normal To avoid bouncing E-Mail messages Reply to Clare@snyder.on.ca OR Remove the R from clsnyder in my E-Mail Address to reply. Stop the spammers!!! It's hard to soar like an eagle when your stuck with a bunch of Turkeys!!! From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 21:18:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA31862 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:18:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA31857 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:18:20 -0400 Received: from AJLegere@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8IWAa02231 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:17:05 +2000 (EDT) From: AJLegere Message-ID: <9979df32.3558f492@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:17:05 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On exchange rates :::: Try this site, it works great http://www.oanda.com/cgi-bin/ncc From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 21:40:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA32194 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:40:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA32190 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:39:56 -0400 Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id VAA21387; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:39:55 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts006d24.okc-ok.concentric.net [206.173.130.156]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id VAA23727; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980512203919.006a71dc@pop3.cris.com> X-Sender: johnhess@pop3.cris.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:39:19 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: John Hess Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer In-Reply-To: <35588DC1.822F2784@lucent.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980512110503.006b7c18@pop3.cris.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu TTS Power Systems 1280 Kona Drive Compton, CA 90220 310-669-8101 At 01:58 PM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >John, > $295 sounds a lot better. Do you have a Web site or phone # >for them? I did a web search for TTS, The Turbo Shop, Master >Tune, and MasterTune. It came up with nothing that seemed to >match your description. > > Ken > >John Hess wrote: >> >> If you only want to use it on a single engine applicaton, TTS (The Turbo >> Shop) sells a version of Master Tune for a single application for $295.00. >> >> At 10:26 AM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >Jody, >> > Thanks for the pointer. I'm not in the business, just a >> >weekend tinkerer. $3700 is not in my budget. I only paid >> >$2500 for my 96 camaro engine & trans that I'm putting in my >> >Street rod!!! >> > >> > Does anyone know of a more reasonably priced solution for >> >the individual. Hypertech is the only solution I've found >> >that could be in my budget. There are a couple of nice >> >shareware Eprom editors out there now. It's time to move on >> >to the EEprom systems. I'm willing to try and come up with a >> >simple piece of software to read and write the EEprom, but I >> >haven't found any documents about the protocol GM used. >> > >> > If we could copy the EEprom to a bin, we might be able to >> >start disassembling the LT1 programming. Just need the Peek >> >and Poke protocol to get started. I have the ECM. >> > >> > > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 22:05:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA32589 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:05:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ns1.foothill.net (root@ns1.foothill.net [206.170.175.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA32585 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:05:09 -0400 Received: from terryk (tahoe2-d87.foothill.net [209.76.43.87]) by ns1.foothill.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA18035 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:04:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "TBK" To: Subject: Re: Misc 101 stuff Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:03:39 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd7e13$5893c6c0$572b4cd1@terryk.foothill.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu GME has a hex editor built in. Just load whatever binary you like even if it not for that version of GME. The program doesn't care about length. Sure, the spark and stuff won't be correct, but the hex editor (Direct Edit) will work. TK -----Original Message----- From: Gregory A. Parmer To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 1:48 PM Subject: Re: Misc 101 stuff > >On Sun, 10 May 1998, Bruce Plecan wrote: >> Is there anyone working on the (747) 101 project that needs something?. > >It's getting there, slowly... > >I grabbed a shareware binary/hex editor from > http://www.bpsoft.com (Hex Workshop) >to do some chip compares. Looks to be pretty >nice so far. Even does a byte-by-byte compare >of 2 bin files. > >General Device > http://www.generaldevice.com (916-393-1655) >had some reasonable EPROM programmers. They >sell Needham's and others. > >EPROMS.EPROMS.EPROMS >I've ordered some (~30) extra EPROMs (pulls) if >anyone is interested. They were $1ea+ship. > >Now a coupla questions: >1) Where to get that darned "pink book" that >describes this delco derivative of the Motorola >6801! I was trying to find the instruction set and >memory map without bugging Ludis anymore. :) >Motorola is busy pushing 68HC11s on their >website. > >2) Where'd you folks get assemblers/disassemblers? >Are they shareware or freeware? > > >Bruce-- > I doubt I'll do the '730, but I >would like to dissect the '747 to death... >...and maybe the '783 also, pending my >understanding of the CPU. > >-greg > > From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 22:32:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00173 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:32:08 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from m28.boston.juno.com (m28.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.186]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00169 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:32:04 -0400 Received: (from cosmic.ray@juno.com) by m28.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WzK25065; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:25:12 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 08:57:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Boingers Message-ID: <19980512.222430.16406.0.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-21,23-24,30-31,36-37,40-41,43-44,48-49,55-56, 62-63,65-66,70-71,73-74,82-84 From: cosmic.ray@juno.com (Raymond C Drouillard) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Thu, 7 May 1998 09:42:03 +0100 Robert Humphris writes: >The point with the Wankel is that it is a 1.3, where as a Camaro is >what, 3 times that displacement? Yet they have similar performance. Add >that to the weight of the engine, which does add to the performance of >the car ( less weight = better power to weight ratio, and better >handling as the car ceases to be engine heavy, so you start getting >easier moments of force on the car ). >Lets compare like for like, I guarentee that if you added sufficent >number of rotors to take the displacement to that of the Camaro, fuel >injected it, you would be unable to out drag it. Then if you take the >same displacement as the Saturn ( What is one of these we don't have >that model over here in the UK ) and put it in a similar weight car, >that the engine would be just as lively, and the performance would be >as >good if not better as the weight would be less. > >Two stroke direct injection engines? We will see what they are like >when they are mass produced. > >Rob Humphris I'm not really trying to trash the Wankel. It has characteristics tha make it useful in some situations. I purposely ignored the whole displacement issue. If I created an engine that I could put into a Hummer and make it perform like a Camaro and get 30 miles per gallon, would you be impressed? Would it matter if the engine was a ten liter engine? I know that it wouldn't make a bit of a difference to me. If it weighed more, it would make a difference, but not enough for me to discard the idea. When you're rating different designs of engines against each other, you can't use something like displacement as a measuring stick. Let's treat the devices as black boxes. We look at what goes in, what comes out, and its physical size and mass. While we're at it, let's look at how long it lasts. We find that the Wankel has a better power/weight ratio. All other things being equal, that would definitely give the Wankel the edge, especially in applications where weight is a big concern. The Wankel doesn't shine at all in the gas consumption ratings. It is acceptable, but not great. When it comes to maintenance, the Wankel really falls down. Granted, you can get it to last with some special techniques. In most of the discussions I have seen, however, the discussion was about how to make it last long enough to win a race. The average driver wants to put the key in the ignition and go. He might be bothered to take it to the local Minit-Lube for an oil change once in a while, but he certainly doesn't want to be pouring 2-stroke oil into his gas or anything like that. In fact, I was told by an engineer that the reason that production cars don't use water injection is because they don't want the drivers to have to use more than one consumable liquid. So, we find that the Wankel is useful in some applications. A few people put them into experimental aircraft because weight is a real issue in aircraft. Reliability is an even bigger issue, so it's going to remain a VERY few until the engineers manage to get the Wankel to be reliable in the long term. I'm not holding my breath because they have had quite a few years to work on that issue. We see them used in racing because the engine only has to last one race and fuel consumption isn't a big issue. One car company is putting them into a production car, and that car is selling enough for them to keep making it, but not enough for them to attempt to use the engine in a bunch of other models. Nor are the other auto manufactures making any plans to use it. Why is that? It goes back to my earlier message. When you look at the whole vehicle, you find that there aren't really any improvements. WHen you choose a car, you realize that you have to give up gas mileage to get performance, and vice versa. If the Wankel would let you have both (the power of a Camaro with the mileage of a Satuurn), the cars with that engine would sell like hotcakes. As it is, what you see is a car with an exotic engine, average performance and fuel consumption, and some reliability problems. When the salesman tells you that the engine is lighter than the Camaro's, and only displaces 1.3 liters, you might say "Gee, that's impressive" and go buy something else. Ray Drouillard _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From diy_efi-owner Tue May 12 23:20:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00790 for diy_efi-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:20:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.33]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00786 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:20:45 -0400 Received: from A70Duster@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 8QFVa07683 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:20:00 +2000 (EDT) From: A70Duster Message-ID: <42dc10fc.35591162@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:20:00 EDT To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: How do I reduce ignition noise. (HELP!!) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 69 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu The spark plug wires and plugs should be of the resistive type to help eliminate some of the noise. Good luck... See ya, Mike From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 00:41:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA01717 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:41:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01711 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:41:56 -0400 Received: from main (alaint@ppp109.boisfrancs.qc.ca [207.253.52.109]) by mail.boisfrancs.qc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04448 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:47:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:39:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Alain Toussaint X-Sender: alaint@main To: DIY list Subject: [nc] Win DRM 383 Grand Sport Corvette #351 (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu good luck,wish i had 50$,i know it's off topic but then,on such a thing,it's worth a forwarding Alain p.s.check the spec of the motor,totally awesome -----------------forwarded message--------------------------------------- A total of 1000 tickets at $50.00 will be sold to raffle off a Doug Rippie Motors 383 Grand Sport Corvette. The drawing will be held the evening of July 28, 1998, and the planned site of the drawing will be in the parking lot of Fuddruckers in Lake Forest, CA. You need NOT be present to win the car. I have already bought one of the tickets, and I intend to win this car. ;) If you would like to win this car, call the following telephone number: (949) 360-9004. 1996 Grand Sport Corvette Coupe #351 of 750. New 383 CID LT4 Race Motor Only 3000 miles on new motor 12800 miles on the car The following list of modifications have been done to the motor and the car. Suspension ------------------- 1) Hiem Jointed Sway Bars Front and Rear Fully Adjustable 2) Polyurethane Bushings Front Complete 3) Adjustable Lower Racing Strut Rods Hiem Jointed 4) Steel Braided Lines on All 4 Calipers 5) Adjustable Brake Bias Spring in Master Cylinder 6) Carbon Metallic Racing Brake Pads 7) Kumho V7000 Racing Tires 8) Road Racing Alignment 9) Custom Racing Valved Bilstein Shocks 10) Solid 30 mm Front Sway Bar and 25mm Rear Sway Bar Drivetrain --------------------- 1) Balanced and Blueprinted Driveshaft and Half Shafts 2) HD. Spicer Solid Steel U Joints 3) Single Mass Clutch w/ 15 lb. Lighter Flywheel 4) Dual Friction Centerforce Disk and Pressure Plate Motor --------------------- 1) 383 CID 12.50:1 DRM Race Motor--All Parts Balanced to (0.00) 2) 4 Bolt Main LT4 Cast Iron Block Blueprinted Race Prepared 3) Light Weight 4340 Forged Steel Callies Crankshaft 3.750 Stroke 4) JE Pistons 4.030 Short Skirt w/ Speed Pro Rings 5) Pro Flow Manley Stainless Steel Valves 2.02 Intake 1.60 Exhaust 6) Crane Triple Springs with 3/8" Retainers 7) Chrome Moly Push Rods 8) AFR Hydra Rev Kit Good for No Valve Float to 9500 RPM 9) Custom Roller Cam Shaft, Specs Are for the Winner Only! 10) Crane Gold 1.6 3/8" Rockers w/ Hardened Guide Plates 11) Custom Race Port and Polished LT4 Heads 12) Huge Custom LT4 Ported Intake Manifold Matched to the Heads 13) Eagle ESP 3D Light Weight H Beam X-rayed Race Rod 6.00" 14) Mains, Rods, Rockers, Heads Are All Fastened w/ Top Quality ARP 15) 1050 CFM ASM Throttle Body 16) 2 High Volume Fuel Pumps 17) Ram Air Kit with Custom Sooth Bore Air Intake Housings 18) High Volume Oil Pump Mellings 19) Custom 7 Qt. Road Racing Oil Pan. Motor Holds 10 Qts. 20) HD. Oil Cooler with Electric Fan and a System 1 Oil Filter 21) Custom Long Tube Tri Y Headers 1-3/4" Collector 22) Custom 3 Inch Mandrel Bent Exhaust w/ Hooker Aero Chambers 23) DRM Programmed OBD II Computer w/ Locked VE Tables 24) MSD Ignition Box 25) Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator 26) Hal Meter w/ Dual O2 Sensors 27) Line Locks 28) 150 HP NOS Wet System 20 lb. Bottle w/ Purge 29) 1.75" 0.095 Wall Seamless Tubing Roll Bar 30) 5 pt. Harness on Both Seats 31) Lots of Spare Parts---Too Many to List This car is currently set up for autocross in SCCA Solo2 Events in Class BSP or BP This car is intended off highway use and not (currently) smog legal Only 1000 raffle tickets will be sold at $50.00 each Car is raffled as is with no warranty All taxes local, state, or federal are the winner's responsibility All licensing and applicable DMV fees are assumed by the winner The car is currently registered, and tags expire in April of 1999 For ticket information, call (949) 360-9004 From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 02:10:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA02556 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:10:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from weck.brokersys.com (root@weck.brokersys.com [209.113.60.130]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA02552 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:10:45 -0400 Received: from brokersys.com (ernie-50.brokersys.com [209.113.60.51]) by weck.brokersys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14826 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 01:13:34 -0500 Message-ID: <355939B7.FBE2A041@brokersys.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:12:07 -0500 From: Walter Petermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" Subject: Pressure Sensors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu While rummaging around the internet I found this tutorial on pressure sensors this group might be interested in: http://gumbo.bae.lsu.edu/~krobbins/Pressure.html It was referenced in another site in which you might find some useful electronics information http://www.iserv.net/~alexx/lib/test.htm regards Walter From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 02:31:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA02724 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:31:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.wgn.net (root@mail.wgn.net [207.213.0.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA02720 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:31:19 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (du476-pcap-nca01.wgn.net [207.213.6.222]) by mail.wgn.net (8.8.5-q-beta2/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA18766 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:31:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199805130631.XAA18766@mail.wgn.net> X-Sender: sganz@mail.wgn.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:34:24 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Sandy Subject: Re: How do I reduce ignition noise. (HELP!!) In-Reply-To: References: <35575D3C.274D@tpgi.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Start off by getting a scope on the reset line and lookin at what it sees, this is start point one. Next check the power supply with the scope and see what kind of trash is on that. A filter cap large uF size and a .1uF will help, look at the powersupply for the SUBDRV board on the EFI Ftp site for simple power supply. Run the CPU off a seperate supply and see if it still resets. If so, then you may not have enough supply to run a coil and the CPU from the same. All external leads that attach to the PC board and sensors are antenna and will bring back a load of crap into the CPU and related circuits, again, check the amount of trash with a scope. A simple filter can help, check out mouser/digikey for some EMI/RFI filters. Grounds are very inportant, good grounds and shileding are mandatory. Also in general, check for good design rules in the CPU board, all parts should have a bypass cap close to the VCC and GND as pratical, and the last gasp for getting it working is to have the CPU IN A METAL BOX. Again note that the leads will act as antenna right into the box, so a ferrite bead on the incomming wires may also help. Just some things to try, but use the scope as a way to see what is really getting hosed, could just be the power supply boucing from the kick of the coil, could be the reset line and bouncing, could be a lot o' things, but start with the scope on the power and work around. If you don't see a lot, put in metal box, and filter all leads into the box. The Halltech unit when I openend it up (thus voiding the warrenty) really didn't have a lot, but they have it pretty well shielded in the metal case so that alone may be the problem. One question, if you did anything with wirewrap, it will not work. ;-) Lots of antennas... Sandy (rambeling, and spelling badly) At 01:10 AM 5/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >To all in EFT land: > I have recently designed and built a simple EFT system based on a >Mot. HC12. All has gone well until now. I can't keep the MCU from >reseting whenever the ignition fires. I am only a sophomore EE student so >I don't exactly know where to start. > >Here is a quick outline: > -The MCU is physically isolated from the coil etc (5ft), but they > share the same battery. > -I'm using a standard points ignition...I'd do a electronic, but I > have to be done by this Friday. > -The MCU supply is regulated with only a LM2935 (an automotive > specific device). Only a .1 cap on the inputs. > -It seems that reset occurs most whenever a open arc is present, > arcing in distributor cap included. > -The problem is independent of my triggering pulse (from > coil)...so I'm guessing it is due to voltage spikes/drops or it is > "in the air" (EMF?). > >I don't know what to do and I gotta have the done by Friday for a design >competition. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!! > Thanks, > Chris Vondrachek > EE student, University of Portland > chrisv@egr.up.edu > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 02:50:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA03001 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:50:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lnagate.foxboro.com.au (lnagate.foxboro.com.au [202.12.113.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA02997 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:50:34 -0400 Received: (qmail 13410 invoked from network); 13 May 1998 05:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO foxboro.com.au) (202.12.112.10) by gatekeeper.foxboro.com.au with SMTP; 13 May 1998 05:50:17 -0000 Received: from wayneb-nt (fwserver [202.12.112.56]) by foxboro.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA29293 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:49:32 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980513154944.00939140@qtc-mail> X-Sender: wayneb@qtc-mail X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:49:44 +1000 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Wayne Blair Subject: Re: the aussie V8, direct petrol injection, exchange rates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Also aftermarket cast cranks in 3.5 and 3.75 strokes any idea on cost of these cranks....ideally the ones that will take standard Chev rods $1500 to $2000 > can bore a perkins (another great aussie racer) block to 4.125 >Never heard of these blocks read more ;^) >....are they cast by Holden for Perkins ?? I beleive so, when he was running 304s and slide injection and the rest using 302 (+3) chevs and 302 fords. > > Also much of the direct petrol injection system employed are made under > licence to the aussie orbital engine company. What parts in particular ?? you may find answers here: http://www.orbeng.com.au/ currency exchange rates: http://www.oanda.com/cgi-bin/ncc http://www.dna.lth.se/cgi-bin/kurt/rates wayne From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 02:57:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA03159 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:57:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lnagate.foxboro.com.au (lnagate.foxboro.com.au [202.12.113.254]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA03155 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:57:41 -0400 Received: (qmail 13481 invoked from network); 13 May 1998 05:57:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO foxboro.com.au) (202.12.112.10) by gatekeeper.foxboro.com.au with SMTP; 13 May 1998 05:57:35 -0000 Received: from wayneb-nt (fwserver [202.12.112.56]) by foxboro.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA29538 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:57:34 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980513155747.0093d670@qtc-mail> X-Sender: wayneb@qtc-mail X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:57:47 +1000 To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Wayne Blair Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Interesting product! I took a quick look at the site. I > still haven't quite figured it out yet. Looks like they > actually replace the Memcal with a custom board. A battery backed ram dallas ????? replaces the eprom add a write/read wire from main board Use diagnostic protocl to write at eprom, or hook into comms interrupt (educated guessing here). Then tune live >They dolist some 5.7 liter & 4L60E PCM's, but their discussion >sounds like our older TPI batch fire systems rather than the >Sequential LT1. Precisily > I will look at the numbers on my PCM > tonight and see if it is one of the ones they support. It is > not obvious if there Memcal will work on the LT-1, dunno >or why they replace the memcal. see above wayne From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 08:17:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05081 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:17:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05077 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:17:20 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-11.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.29]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id IAA07833 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:16:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Hondo O2 sensors for Oz Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:18:02 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7e69$2cd0f700$1d198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu If ya'all wanna find them locally, the part no. is 36531-PO7-003, or if they are too expensive down there, get together and maybe someone here in US will do a single large shipment. I personally don't know where to start on this, but I don't want ya left out in the cold.. If ya run into trouble, or not being able to find them, get together, find someone to organize your end, and have him e-mail me, and we'll think things out. I'm at nacelp@bright.net Cheers Bruce From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 08:40:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05364 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:40:41 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from b137a5.hacc.edu (b137a5.hacc.edu [199.254.212.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05359 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:40:38 -0400 Received: by b137a5.hacc.edu from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Wed, 13 May 1998 08:48:04 -0400 Received: by b137a5.hacc.edu from alsites.hacc.edu (199.254.212.150::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.6); Wed, 13 May 1998 08:48:03 -0400 From: "Al Sites" To: Subject: Re: small PC used as a Car mp3 player Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:39:05 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7e6c$1d5f6240$96d4fec7@alsites.hacc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > I just spoke to Ray at Advantech. Pricing for the "Biscuit PC" are as > follows > > Board: $357 > Wires: $47 > 166mmx CPU: $121 > CPU Fan: $10 > 32M Ram: $62 > > These prices are US. Ray's phone # 408.330.9399 x507 Is this the small computer that fits in a din slot in a car? This is the computer used for the mp3 player. See the page at http://utter.chaos.org.uk/~altman/mp3mobile/ From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 08:59:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05648 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:59:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05644 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:59:11 -0400 Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA27934 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 07:58:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pit-pa3-04.ix.netcom.com(199.183.195.100) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma027909; Wed May 13 07:58:10 1998 From: cmorris@ix.netcom.com (Charles) To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: interference Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:57:32 GMT Message-ID: <355a9778.1137222@smtp.ix.netcom.com> References: <199805130650.CAA03011@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> In-Reply-To: <199805130650.CAA03011@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id IAA05645 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 13 May 1998 02:50:47 -0400, you wrote: >One question, if you did anything with wirewrap, it will not work. ;-) Lots >of antennas... > >Sandy (rambeling, and spelling badly) I beg to differ. I am running a wire-wrap breadboard to control two additional fuel injectors for my turbo BMW. Tossed it in the glovebox and hooked up the wires. It has never missed a beat despite the presence of an MSD-6 (multispark) ignition, and it doesn't even have a watchdog reset (a quickie design). Works so well that I never got around to spending the $250 or so to have a PC board made. I have built some high-speed circuits that worked better on the bench as wirewrap boards than when produced as PC boards with all those parallel traces coupling into each other... -Charles p.s. "rambling" ;) From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 09:05:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05781 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:05:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.90.150]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05774 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:04:58 -0400 Resent-From: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com Received: from webserver by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id JAA17072; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:04:57 -0400 Received: from FJB (Administrators@localhost) by webserver (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00221 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:03:06 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:03:06 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Resent-Message-Id: <199805131303.JAA00221@webserver> Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980513090728.007a7d60@xephic.dynip.com> X-Sender: frederic.breitwieser@xephic.dynip.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:07:28 -0700 To: diy_efi@coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Boingers In-Reply-To: <19980512.222430.16406.0.Cosmic.Ray@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >that I could put into a Hummer and make it perform like a Camaro and get >30 miles per gallon, would you be impressed? Would it matter if the >engine was a ten liter engine? I know that it wouldn't make a bit of a Not only would it impress *ME*, I'd immediately buy one and shove it into my 500HP 5mpg Hummer. >discussions I have seen, however, the discussion was about how to make it >last long enough to win a race. Another factor in this is most rotary's I've seen on the track don't rev at 5000 RPM either... they scream away at much higher RPMs. You brought up some good points Ray. Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport, CT 06606 Homebrew Automotive Website: http://www.xephic.dynip.com/ 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HMMWV 2000 Buick-Powered Mid-Engined Sports Car - From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 09:39:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06507 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:39:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06503 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:38:57 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA26882 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 06:38:56 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Hondo O2 sensors for Oz Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:39:46 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <36089d3b.230813625@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: <01bd7e69$2cd0f700$1d198fd1@nacelp> In-Reply-To: <01bd7e69$2cd0f700$1d198fd1@nacelp> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id JAA06504 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 13 May 1998 08:18:02 -0400, "Bruce Plecan" wrote: >If ya'all wanna find them locally, the part no. is 36531-PO7-003, >or if they are too expensive down there, get together and maybe >someone here in US will do a single large shipment. Oooops, minor tweak needed on the above: 36531-P07-003 Note that the letter after the P is a zero, not an Oh. > I personally don't know where to start on this, but I don't want >ya left out in the cold.. I really don't imagine this will be any kinda problem. You'd be absolutely amazed at how "customer oriented" your parts manager will become when he finds out you're proposing a sizeable buy of bits that each run around $100. Runs his parts dept. numbers up nice and quick. Just a couple people willing to front the buy to their own local Honda dealership would put those dealers sorta in competition for which one would offer the best deal. Course, we're also talking big money here, since just 20 of these puppies and yer up to around $2K already. Not something anyone would wanna do without the money up front; remember most all automotive electrical parts are NOT returnable. B) On our aviation group (about 1/3 are from down undah), we're using a fair amount of Subaru parts, and our first wee group buy was over $1KUS. With those dollar amounts on a single transaction, the dealer gave us 30% over his COST, which in most cases was still dang near 50% off of list. Those savings easily paid for even intl. shipping. Just an example. Last but not least (this is a recording), I gotta WARN y'all, once more, with feeling; PLEASE DO NOT be going out plunkin down your hard-earned cash and buying one of these sensors until we have completed the testing on EGOR. It isn't gonna be long now, and if we run into a problem, you could end up with an expensive Christmas tree ornament for next holiday season. Don't do it; it's foolish to rush ahead. Nough said. From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 10:10:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07028 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:10:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07024 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:10:13 -0400 Received: from bernie (enterprise.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.108]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27788 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 00:12:42 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980514000941.007a6b70@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:09:41 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer In-Reply-To: <35586A27.7C776AAC@lucent.com> References: <3554637C.186B087F@lucent.com> <3.0.5.32.19980512194723.007c52a0@mail.qonline.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Looks like the price starts at $695 in Australian $, anyone >know the current exchange rate? $695 Aus would be around (roughly) $1070 US $1 Aus = $0.65 US From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 10:25:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07249 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:25:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lennier.qonline.com.au (root@lennier.qonline.com.au [203.103.144.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07243 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:25:44 -0400 Received: from bernie (enterprise.qonline.com.au [203.103.236.108]) by lennier.qonline.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27852 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 00:28:27 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980514002533.007c3dc0@mail.qonline.com.au> X-Sender: mharding@mail.qonline.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:25:33 +1000 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Matthew Harding Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer In-Reply-To: <199805122245.PAA15502@mozart.bcit.bc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At 03:45 12/05/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Ken > >I have been looking at the 8051 PCM. >Aldl communication is not difficult. >Just use the RS232 interface and software that was posted >to this net previously. Software, where? must have been b4 i started.... where do I get me a copy? From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 11:16:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08088 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:16:06 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from fwns2.raleigh.ibm.com (fwns2d.raleigh.ibm.com [204.146.167.236]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08083 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:15:58 -0400 Received: from rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com (rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com [9.37.172.47]) by fwns2.raleigh.ibm.com (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7RTP-FW1.1) with ESMTP id LAA65852 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ipass.net (socks8.raleigh.ibm.com [9.37.3.54]) by rtpmail03.raleigh.ibm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/RTP-ral-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA24052 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:15:57 -0400 Message-ID: <3559BAB6.4C7F9318@ipass.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:22:30 -0400 From: Jamie Dennis Organization: http://www.ipass.net/~jdennis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer References: <3554637C.186B087F@lucent.com> <3.0.5.32.19980512194723.007c52a0@mail.qonline.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980514000941.007a6b70@mail.qonline.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Matthew Harding wrote: > > > Looks like the price starts at $695 in Australian $, anyone > >know the current exchange rate? > > $695 Aus would be around (roughly) $1070 US > > $1 Aus = $0.65 US Actually, $695 Australian is $437.16 (using yahoo's currency converter)... I think you divided when you should have multiplyed.... -Jamie -- Misspellers of the world untie! From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 11:17:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08114 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:17:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from algw1.lucent.com (algw1.lucent.com [205.147.213.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08110 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:17:37 -0400 Received: from emsr1.emsr.lucent.com by alig1.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id LAA19789; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:33:02 -0400 Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id LAA22404 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu.smtp; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:17:18 -0400 From: kenkelly@lucent.com Received: by emsr1.emsr.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 Solaris/emsr) id LAA22393 for efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:17:17 -0400 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Received: from lucent.com (kkk) by pace10.wh.lucent.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA19576; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:16:28 -0400 Message-Id: <3559B89C.6D1B6517@lucent.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:13:32 -0400 Original-From: Ken Kelly Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en]C-EMS-1.3.1 (WinNT; U) Mime-Version: 1.0 Original-To: efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer References: <3554637C.186B087F@lucent.com> <3.0.5.32.19980512194723.007c52a0@mail.qonline.com.au> <3.0.5.32.19980514000941.007a6b70@mail.qonline.com.au> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Matt, Thanks for the exchange rate, but I think you applied it backwards. AJDLegere sent me the address of a currency converter: http://www.oanda.com/cgi-bin/ncc I think you applied the ratio backwards. 695 AUD = 441 USD according to that web page. Ken Matthew Harding wrote: > > > Looks like the price starts at $695 in Australian $, anyone > >know the current exchange rate? > > $695 Aus would be around (roughly) $1070 US > > $1 Aus = $0.65 US From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 11:36:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08418 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:36:11 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from hrmse02.dhr.state.nc.us (exchange2.dhr.state.nc.us [149.168.180.67]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08412 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:36:06 -0400 Message-Id: <199805131536.LAA08412@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Received: by exchange2.dhr.state.nc.us with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:35:47 -0400 From: Mike Hoenes To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:35:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu For a 1227730 ECU - Comparing a stock file to a VATS disable file there are only two differences. One is at 0016 - which the stock 10 is changed to 00 (i understand that this is the VATS/NOVATS flag ) The other is at offset 0008. Stock is 8D, the VATS disable file has AA. Can anyone tell me what offset 0008 is for? Also, does anyone have a map to the offsets to disable warning codes for a 730? TIA mike - From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 11:44:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08637 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:44:30 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lsi.lsil.com (lsi.lsil.com [147.145.40.2]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08632 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:44:26 -0400 Received: from mhbs.lsil.com ([147.145.29.36]) by lsi.lsil.com with ESMTP id IAA05453 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6 for ); Wed, 13 May 1998 08:44:25 -0700 Received: from [147.145.143.10] by mhbs.lsil.com; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:43:50 -0700 Received: from mm104.minn by mms10 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA22448; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:43:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:43:44 -0500 From: mdill@lsil.com (Mike Dillon) Message-Id: <199805131543.KAA22448@mms10> To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hey Matt, Whats a factor of 2 when we are just talking roughly :) 695.00 Aus * (0.65 US/1.00 Aus) = 695.00 X 0.65 US = 451.75 Remember units are our friends. Mike D. > From diy_efi-owner@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Wed May 13 10:12 CDT 1998 > From: Matthew Harding > > > Looks like the price starts at $695 in Australian $, anyone > >know the current exchange rate? > > > $695 Aus would be around (roughly) $1070 US > > $1 Aus = $0.65 US > > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 12:40:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09799 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:40:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.wgn.net (root@mail.wgn.net [207.213.0.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09795 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:40:24 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (du162-pcap-nca01.wgn.net [207.213.5.162]) by mail.wgn.net (8.8.5-q-beta2/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA32564 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:40:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199805131640.JAA32564@mail.wgn.net> X-Sender: sganz@mail.wgn.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:43:24 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Sandy Subject: Re: interference In-Reply-To: <355a9778.1137222@smtp.ix.netcom.com> References: <199805130650.CAA03011@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> <199805130650.CAA03011@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Your lucky! ;-) > I beg to differ. I am running a wire-wrap breadboard to control >two additional fuel injectors for my turbo BMW. Tossed it in the >glovebox and hooked up the wires. It has never missed a beat despite >the presence of an MSD-6 (multispark) ignition, and it doesn't even >have a watchdog reset (a quickie design). Works so well that I never >got around to spending the $250 or so to have a PC board made. > I have built some high-speed circuits that worked better on the >bench as wirewrap boards than when produced as PC boards with all >those parallel traces coupling into each other... > >-Charles >p.s. "rambling" ;) > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 13:00:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10045 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:00:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from pop1.cyberhighway.net (qmailr@pop1.cyberhighway.net [209.161.0.35]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10041 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:00:14 -0400 Received: (qmail 15783 invoked from network); 13 May 1998 11:00:11 -0600 Received: from ts6-20.rpt.cyberhighway.net (209.161.38.146) by pop1.cyberhighway.net with SMTP; 13 May 1998 11:00:11 -0600 Received: by ts6-20.rpt.cyberhighway.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7E5D.A827F090@ts6-20.rpt.cyberhighway.net>; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:55:35 -0700 Message-ID: <01BD7E5D.A827F090@ts6-20.rpt.cyberhighway.net> From: Mike Jones To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: 2 stroke injection Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:55:33 -0700 Encoding: 15 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu OMC does it with seperate oil injection to the crankcase. Mike J. p.s. sorry if this is accomanied by a winmail.dat. It SAYS off, but sometimes the damn thing gets attached anyway... >>Clare Snyder wrote: with DFI, how do they handle the crankshaft lubrication? Do they just inject oil spray into the crankcase at the inlet port? Somehow this oil has to travel throughout the engine.I am thinking more along the line of "port" injection, like in an SFI automotive system.>> -- From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 14:06:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10923 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:06:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from po1.csc.com (po1.csc.com [20.1.107.110]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10918 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:06:15 -0400 From: jdzura@csc.com Received: from va-fch34.vtc.csc.com ([20.1.6.97] helo=csc.com) by po1.csc.com with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu id 0yZfuJ-0006Ti-00; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:05:35 -0400 Received: by csc.com(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP MTA v1.1.04 (495.1 10-24-1997)) id 85256603.0063582C ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:05:06 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CSC To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Message-ID: <85256603.0062ABF2.00@csc.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:00:26 -0400 Subject: Re: interference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I also beg to differ, I have personally run DSP wirewraps at about 20 MHz. If the breadboard is a wirewrap, it is possible to wrap a ground grid. Simply attach every ground to every other one, forming a grid of ground wires. It does wonders for reducing noise. Good luck cmorris@ix.netcom.com on 05/13/98 08:57:32 AM Please respond to diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu cc: (bcc: Joe Dzura/SED/CSC) Subject: Re: interference On Wed, 13 May 1998 02:50:47 -0400, you wrote: >One question, if you did anything with wirewrap, it will not work. ;-) Lots >of antennas... > >Sandy (rambeling, and spelling badly) I beg to differ. I am running a wire-wrap breadboard to control two additional fuel injectors for my turbo BMW. Tossed it in the glovebox and hooked up the wires. It has never missed a beat despite the presence of an MSD-6 (multispark) ignition, and it doesn't even have a watchdog reset (a quickie design). Works so well that I never got around to spending the $250 or so to have a PC board made. I have built some high-speed circuits that worked better on the bench as wirewrap boards than when produced as PC boards with all those parallel traces coupling into each other... -Charles p.s. "rambling" ;) From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 15:14:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11781 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:14:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ultra2.syspac.com (ultra2.syspac.com [204.96.14.39]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11777 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:14:45 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.syspac.com ([204.96.14.7]) by ultra2.syspac.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37030U5000L500S0) with ESMTP id AAA28995 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:11:42 -0700 Received: from p57016.syspac.com (p57016.syspac.com [204.181.57.16]) by mailrelay.syspac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA28987 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:11:40 -0700 (MST) From: bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com Message-Id: <199805131911.MAA28987@mailrelay.syspac.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:40:33 +0000 Subject: Re: three phase motors to steppers Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu steve Several years ago I was trying to use alternators for stepper motors and variable speed motors. I managed to get Don Lancaster a little interested and he wrote it up in one of his many columns. One reply was from a guy using them to control a wood lathe. He made up a video of his work which was very well done. I don't remember what devices he was using, but the controller was physically large. I have been waiting for some low voltage Hi current mosfets, but that doesn't seem to be the way industry is going. All the devices I am familiar with are in the under 100 watt range, or are much higher voltage. The drivers have been around for ages, but getting them to control some power seems to the problem. At High voltage and high prices, there seems to be a wealth of devices. I seem to be twixt and between. I'm not sure how a three phase induction would work as a stepper. My immediate reaction would be to use it as a servo with feedback. The alternators were nice in that you could control both rotor current,for torque, and your field for speed or position. I ended up putting some steppers on my mill. The 72 rpm slo-syns can be used as steppers if you don't want a lot of speed. They got gobs of torque and they are cheap. This is all off the top of the head, if you want more details, I'll look a little deeper. Bob McKnight Phx AZ From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 18:39:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13638 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:39:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (westbyserver.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.3]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13633 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:38:51 -0400 Received: from kb4mxo (ppp42.oec.mwt.net [156.46.76.172]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA04301 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:38:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <355A1EA8.DE63C7F3@mwt.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:28:57 -0500 From: Steven Gorkowski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: three phase motors to steppers X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199805131911.MAA28987@mailrelay.syspac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Bob Thanks for the info . If you need big power fets contact me off line I have some to spare. kb4mxo@ mwt.net Steve bamcknig@postoffice.syspac.com wrote: > steve > > Several years ago I was trying to use alternators for stepper > motors and variable speed motors. I managed to get Don Lancaster a > little interested and he wrote it up in one of his many columns. > One reply was from a guy using them to control a wood lathe. He made > up a video of his work which was very well done. I don't remember > what devices he was using, but the controller was physically large. > I have been waiting for some low voltage Hi current mosfets, but that > doesn't seem to be the way industry is going. All the devices I am > familiar with are in the under 100 watt range, or are much higher > voltage. The drivers have been around for ages, but getting them to > control some power seems to the problem. At High voltage and high > prices, there seems to be a wealth of devices. I seem to be twixt > and between. > I'm not sure how a three phase induction would work as a stepper. My > immediate reaction would be to use it as a servo with feedback. The > alternators were nice in that you could control both rotor > current,for torque, and your field for speed or position. > I ended up putting some steppers on my mill. > The 72 rpm slo-syns can be used as steppers if you don't want a lot > of speed. They got gobs of torque and they are cheap. > > This is all off the top of the head, if you want more details, I'll > look a little deeper. > > Bob McKnight > Phx AZ From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 18:46:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13754 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:46:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13746 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:45:59 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Thu, 14 May 98 08:46:06 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7F14.888C2000@PJARAMAZ >; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:44:40 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7F14.888C2000@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: GM ECM Flash programmer Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:44:39 +1000 Encoding: 31 TEXT, 39 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Matt, Either i've totally lost it or you got the numbers around the wrong way :-) $1070 Aus would be $695 US or $695 AUS would be $451.75 US @ 65c exchange rate. Cheers, PJ ---------- From: Matthew Harding Sent: Thursday, May 14, 1998 12:09 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer > Looks like the price starts at $695 in Australian $, anyone >know the current exchange rate? $695 Aus would be around (roughly) $1070 US $1 Aus = $0.65 US begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B@6`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\MVP'Z]`1X`< `!````' ```%)%.B!'32!%0TT@1FQA M`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````&0```'!J87)A;6%Z M0&EN9V5N:6-O+F-O;2YA=0`````#``80W5).R ,`!Q!^`0``'@`($ $```!E M````34%45"Q%251(15))5D543U1!3$Q93$]35$E43U)93U5'3U142$5.54U" M15)305)/54Y$5$A%5U)/3D=705DZ+2DD,3 W,$%54U=/54Q$0D4D-CDU55-/ M4B0V.35!55-73U5,1 `````"`0D0`0```&P"``!H`@``U 0``$Q:1G6!#A3) M_P`*`0\"%0*D`^0%ZP*#`% 3`U0"`&-H"L!S973N,@8`!L,"@S(#Q@<3`H.Z M,Q,-?0J ",\)V3L5_W@R-34"@ J!#;$+8&[P9S$P,Q0@"PH2\@P!UF,`0 70 M80) + J%"H4016ET: 20(&DG('9E('1O`9!L;+1Y(!600A@ M(&<!&Q&0``&YE289K;O9O M!^ >@F,(`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``? A^ ` end From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 18:46:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13755 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:46:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13747 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:45:59 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Thu, 14 May 98 08:48:15 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7F14.D61ADC80@PJARAMAZ >; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:46:50 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7F14.D61ADC80@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:46:49 +1000 Encoding: 27 TEXT, 43 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Anyone tell me what offset 008 in the '808 is for. Its a config flag but so far only worked out one bits for Auto / man....... Cheers, PJ ---------- From: Mike Hoenes Sent: Thursday, May 14, 1998 1:35 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question For a 1227730 ECU - Comparing a stock file to a VATS disable file there are only two differences. One is at 0016 - which the stock 10 is changed to 00 (i understand that this is the VATS/NOVATS flag ) The other is at offset 0008. Stock is 8D, the VATS disable file has AA. Can anyone tell me what offset 0008 is for? Also, does anyone have a map to the offsets to disable warning codes for a 730? TIA mike - begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C(6`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M`' ``0```"D```!2 M13H@.3$@25)/0R!,.3@@0FEN(&9I;&4@3V9F``@0`0```&4```!!3EE/3D5414Q,3457 M2$%43T9&4T54,# X24Y42$4X,#A)4T9/4DE44T%#3TY&24=&3$%'0E544T]& M05)/3DQ95T]22T5$3U543TY%0DE44T9/4D%55$\O34%.0TA%15)3+%!*```` M``(!"1 !````_@(``/H"``",!0``3%I&=9B;.U'_``H!#P(5`J0#Y 7K`H,` M4!,#5 (`8V@*P'-E=.XR!@`&PP*#,@/&!Q,"@[HS$PU]"H (SPG9.Q7_>#(U M-0* "H$-L0M@;O!G,3 S%" +"A+R# $F8P! $W!N>0(@92"8=&5L`R '@"!W M$< -!4!O#= 1\2 P,#B6( N &T!H&S G.!RB@P0@`A!R+B!)= 0@A&$@!:!N M9FEG';"3"V >P&)U!4!S;QVPLPK!`B!L>1O !;!K"8#G'! ?01L28FD>(1W! M$W#;'T ?@"\;D !P+B)4"H5-"H5#'1 $D',L"H50!DHBS J+;&DQ-#1Y`M%I M+29S#- F%RB6#((% MT&D@8"!(;_\)\ >0*;\JS09@`C K_RT+!%1H"'!S9&%Y+!L%T#,`("9P,R Q M.3FA'+ Q.C,U$W!-+H\9*LU4;S#/+0MD:7DR7PW :4 XP1E ,BX!"?!G+F]H M:6\MSG,!D!M0.6!D=32/+YZX=6)J*-$VKRT+.1K 0$E23T,@3#/A0JLP!Y0.@!O8VO'/]0AT1Y05D%4!? X@/YS`:! `4:$'1 6`!Y M2'%]'^-T(#!!E3B #=!(86[V8P>0(K9/&R$=D1OQ')#W*& I`!O!:1&P'/-& M)!D@/QV"$;$9`"!Q(=$,=M7=!' =DB!(A%P1L(= M`N\<)%!!'X!'=G<*P ,`1='W!: -L"%484&51&%9QE'&]$E!(LQM+>%!E4OA M02\O&9\HEF+5%2$`9; ```,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ```#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``Z4=^ ` end From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 19:22:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14389 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:22:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail.wgn.net (root@mail.wgn.net [207.213.0.9]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14385 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:22:17 -0400 Received: from bullwinkle (du316-pcap-nca01.wgn.net [207.213.6.62]) by mail.wgn.net (8.8.5-q-beta2/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA16317 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:22:16 -0700 Message-Id: <199805132322.QAA16317@mail.wgn.net> X-Sender: sganz@mail.wgn.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:25:22 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: Sandy Subject: Re: interference In-Reply-To: <85256603.0062ABF2.00@csc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I should say that their is nothing wrong with WW, but for somthing in a very noisy environment, less the optimal. A nice set of solid core wires and non-resistor plugs can do provide a nice spread sprectrum transmitter, which will cause many-a-problem, that for example a nice PCB will not have. I know their can be bad PCB designs, but It is just too easy to get a proto made. If I need one, I might consider it, but from 2 or more, low cost prototype PCB are my poison. 0.01 of the 2 Cents that I have probabally spent last week! ;-) Sandy At 02:00 PM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote: >I also beg to differ, I have personally run DSP wirewraps at about 20 MHz. If the >breadboard is a wirewrap, it is possible to wrap a ground grid. Simply attach >every ground to every other one, forming a grid of ground wires. It does wonders >for reducing noise. > >Good luck > > > > > >cmorris@ix.netcom.com on 05/13/98 08:57:32 AM > >Please respond to diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > >To: diy_efi@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu >cc: (bcc: Joe Dzura/SED/CSC) >Subject: Re: interference > > > > >On Wed, 13 May 1998 02:50:47 -0400, you wrote: >>One question, if you did anything with wirewrap, it will not work. ;-) Lots >>of antennas... >> >>Sandy (rambeling, and spelling badly) > I beg to differ. I am running a wire-wrap breadboard to control >two additional fuel injectors for my turbo BMW. Tossed it in the >glovebox and hooked up the wires. It has never missed a beat despite >the presence of an MSD-6 (multispark) ignition, and it doesn't even >have a watchdog reset (a quickie design). Works so well that I never >got around to spending the $250 or so to have a PC board made. > I have built some high-speed circuits that worked better on the >bench as wirewrap boards than when produced as PC boards with all >those parallel traces coupling into each other... >-Charles >p.s. "rambling" ;) > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 19:24:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14431 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:24:54 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ns1.foothill.net (root@ns1.foothill.net [206.170.175.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14427 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:24:51 -0400 Received: from terryk (tahoe2-d76.foothill.net [209.76.43.76]) by ns1.foothill.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA23189 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:24:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "TBK" To: Subject: Re: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:23:06 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd7ec6$15466040$4c2b4cd1@terryk.foothill.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu It's (very likely) the experimental byte. If AA, checksum is ignored. Unless the ECM ignores VATS when the exp byte is set, it has nothing to do with VATS. I don't believe setting the exp byte will disable VATS. TK -----Original Message----- From: Peter Jaramaz To: 'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu' Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 4:11 PM Subject: RE: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question >Anyone tell me what offset 008 in the '808 is for. Its a config flag but so far only worked out one bits for Auto / man....... > >Cheers, >PJ > > >---------- >From: Mike Hoenes >Sent: Thursday, May 14, 1998 1:35 AM >To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu >Subject: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question > >For a 1227730 ECU - >Comparing a stock file to a VATS disable file there are only two >differences. >One is at 0016 - which the stock 10 is changed to 00 (i understand that this >is the VATS/NOVATS flag ) >The other is at offset 0008. Stock is 8D, the VATS disable file has AA. >Can anyone tell me what offset 0008 is for? >Also, does anyone have a map to the offsets to disable warning codes for a >730? > >TIA > >mike > - > > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 19:34:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14734 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:34:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ilms.nla.gov.au (ilms.nla.gov.au [192.102.239.30]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14726 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:33:55 -0400 Received: from gandalf.nla.gov.au (mirkwood.nla.gov.au [203.4.202.35]) by ilms.nla.gov.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA105714 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:33:51 +1000 Received: by mirkwood.nla.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:33:23 +1000 Message-ID: <5F5741967573D111BB840000F800D4E4608C93@mirkwood.nla.gov.au> From: Douglas Taylor To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: RE: GM ECM Flash programmer Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:33:21 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu ---------- From: Matthew Harding [SMTP:mharding@qonline.com.au] Sent: Thursday, 14 May 1998 12:10 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer > Looks like the price starts at $695 in Australian $, anyone >know the current exchange rate? $695 Aus would be around (roughly) $1070 US $1 Aus = $0.65 US You've gone the wrong way. $AUS 695 = $US 451.75 From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 19:44:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15029 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:44:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15024 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:44:03 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-29.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.47]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id TAA07763 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:42:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Group Buy on the O2s Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:44:37 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7ec9$17364200$2f198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu OK list is $130.80 (USA). For any order of over 10 it would be 103., and change, plus 6% sales tax, so 110 + shipping. Wasn't thrilled but if someone knows of a cheaper source holler, at least there is a number for others to look at. On this "deal" it would be as long as 30 days from when I ordered them til when I got them. And they wouldn't be ordered till I had all the money in hand. It's still some time fore things are a done deal on the testing, so lots of thought can go into your decision. Cheers Bruce BTW, if anyone has any ideas about better prices, or source but doesn't have the time, to chase things down e-mail me. nacelp@bright.net. From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 19:48:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15203 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:48:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from corinna.its.utas.edu.au (root@corinna.its.utas.edu.au [131.217.10.51]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15198 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:48:42 -0400 Received: from pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au (pclab5.eee.utas.edu.au [131.217.33.105]) by corinna.its.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA11694 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:48:39 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:48:39 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199805132348.JAA11694@corinna.its.utas.edu.au> X-Sender: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: danny_tb@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Danny Barrett) Subject: Attachments X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Why are there so many $%^#@$^%$ing "winmail.dat" files flying all over the place? Can't the owners of these PLEASE GET RID OF THEM BEFORE SENDING THE #@%@#^%#%&#$ING MESSAGES... From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 19:55:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15390 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:55:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15385 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:55:47 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-29.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.47]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id TAA12751 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:54:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Re: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:56:29 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7eca$bf55b280$2f198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 7:12 PM >Anyone tell me what offset 008 in the '808 is for. Its a config flag but so far only worked out one bits for Auto / man....... >Cheers, >PJ >From: Mike Hoenes >The other is at offset 0008. Stock is 8D, the VATS disable file has AA. >Can anyone tell me what offset 0008 is for? I thought, 0008 was the checksum disable (when AA)..... But, haven't personnally been able to verify that.. In my mind to disable something, that switch would have to be turned off, the checksum would change, and the malfunction flags would need to be changed, right, or am I missing something?. Anyone?. Or is the 730 that different?. Bruce Gee, a new reason for wearing Cone Shaped Hats. Does it ever end?. From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 20:11:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15706 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:11:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.23]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15701 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:11:01 -0400 Received: by INET-03-IMC with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:11:02 -0700 Message-ID: From: Don Berry To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: Group Buy on the O2s Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:10:52 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Bruce, what is the part # and supplier. I have some sources that may have a better price. Thanks ! Don -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan [SMTP:nacelp@bright.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 4:45 PM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Group Buy on the O2s OK list is $130.80 (USA). For any order of over 10 it would be 103., and change, plus 6% sales tax, so 110 + shipping. Wasn't thrilled but if someone knows of a cheaper source holler, at least there is a number for others to look at. On this "deal" it would be as long as 30 days from when I ordered them til when I got them. And they wouldn't be ordered till I had all the money in hand. It's still some time fore things are a done deal on the testing, so lots of thought can go into your decision. Cheers Bruce BTW, if anyone has any ideas about better prices, or source but doesn't have the time, to chase things down e-mail me. nacelp@bright.net. From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 20:16:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15757 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:16:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15753 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:16:45 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-29.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.47]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id UAA22439 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:15:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Same MPU, different proms Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:17:27 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7ecd$ad44bac0$2f198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On this 730/165 issue they both use the same processor, right?. The difference is one uses a 128K prom, and the other a 256K. Now, if ya offset load the 128 into the 256 you can run it, can you just run the 128K memcal?. ie, use a 749 memcal in a 730 for say a 6 cyl map, to 6cyl map application using all the same mechanicals?. Of course assuming the wiring is right. Bruce From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 20:23:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15829 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:23:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from santaclara01.pop.internex.net (santaclara01.pop.internex.net [205.158.3.18]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15825 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:23:26 -0400 From: garfield@pilgrimhouse.com Received: from garfield.pilgrimhouse.com ([205.158.241.42]) by santaclara01.pop.internex.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-34792U7500L7500S0) with SMTP id AAA21414 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:23:27 -0700 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: Group Buy on the O2s Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:24:18 -0700 Organization: Pilgrim House Message-ID: <35683953.270773406@santaclara01.pop.internex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu id UAA15826 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu On Wed, 13 May 1998 17:10:52 -0700, Don Berry wrote: > Bruce, what is the part # and supplier. I have some sources >that may have a better price. Sheesh, don't you guys READ your mail? It was posted TWICE just yesterday, and several times before that. 36531-P07-003 Garfield From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 20:45:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA16512 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:45:59 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.14]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16508 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:45:56 -0400 Received: from nacelp (dark-cas1-cs-29.dial.bright.net [209.143.25.47]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.FNG_Build) with SMTP id UAA05155 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:44:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bruce Plecan" To: Subject: Message from CSH, HQ Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:46:37 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd7ed1$c00bb7e0$2f198fd1@nacelp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Dan Barrett, and Matt Harding they seem to be talking to you, about the winmail. I don't see it, just get tired about the carpet bombing everyone with the winmail mentions. There were a couple others, and I happened to have their addresses, and wrote them e-mail. So you weren't alone, or singled out, by me. Thanks in Advance Bruce From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 21:06:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16783 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:06:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from wolfenet.com (root@frapp.wolfe.net [207.178.61.5]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16777 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:06:14 -0400 Received: from gonzo.wolfenet.com (orin@gonzo.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.2]) by wolfenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16217 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:06:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Orin Eman Received: (from orin@localhost) by gonzo.wolfenet.com (8.8.3/8.7) id SAA14588 for diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805140106.SAA14588@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Subject: Re: Message from CSH, HQ To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:06:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <01bd7ed1$c00bb7e0$2f198fd1@nacelp> from "Bruce Plecan" at May 13, 98 08:46:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Another listmeister has written some kind of script for majordomo to kill the WINMAIL.DATs. Hopefully I can get a copy and we can get it running on diy_efi and efi332! Orin, list admin. > Dan Barrett, and Matt Harding they seem to be talking to you, > about the winmail. I don't see it, just get tired about the carpet > bombing everyone with the winmail mentions. > There were a couple others, and I happened to have their > addresses, and wrote them e-mail. So you weren't alone, or > singled out, by me. > Thanks in Advance > Bruce From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 22:09:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17601 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:09:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17597 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:09:46 -0400 Received: from mysystem (1Cust147.tnt7.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.8.147]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with ESMTP id UAA15097 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:08:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805140108.UAA15097@smtp2.mailsrvcs.net> From: "kris b robinson" To: Subject: ECU 's Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:05:41 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu HI someone told me you guys know something about custom ECU's is this true?? thank you Kris Robinson 1988 TransAm 388cid rollercam ,lifters, rockers , full floating wrist pins , gear driven , 10.4:1comp. TPI , stage 1 port job , 2.05 dia valves future mods : newsprings drop 1.5 " , swaybars , tower braces subframe conectors , baer brakes , wet nitros sys . sram , new fully tunable computer , fuel cell From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 22:30:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17942 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:30:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from lek.net (root@lek.net [207.170.137.102]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17937 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:30:26 -0400 Received: from williamh (dyn358.lek.net [207.170.134.186]) by lek.net (8.8.5/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04213 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:30:18 -0400 Message-ID: <001001bd7ee7$0f2574a0$ba86aacf@williamh> From: "Bill Harrison" To: Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:19:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu At that exchange rate, it would actually be 451$ or so. From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 22:43:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA18197 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:43:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18193 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:43:23 -0400 Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id WAA19488; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:43:23 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts005d22.okc-ok.concentric.net [206.173.130.130]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id WAA14227; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:43:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980513214223.006b2e34@pop3.cris.com> X-Sender: johnhess@pop3.cris.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:42:23 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu, diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: John Hess Subject: Re: GM ECM Flash programmer In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980514000941.007a6b70@mail.qonline.com.au> References: <35586A27.7C776AAC@lucent.com> <3554637C.186B087F@lucent.com> <3.0.5.32.19980512194723.007c52a0@mail.qonline.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sorry, Charlie... If $1 Australian = $.65 US (Close), then $695 AUS = ~$422.5 US At 12:09 AM 5/14/98 +1000, Matthew Harding wrote: > >> Looks like the price starts at $695 in Australian $, anyone >>know the current exchange rate? > > >$695 Aus would be around (roughly) $1070 US > >$1 Aus = $0.65 US > > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 22:45:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA18250 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:45:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ingenico.com.au ([203.10.64.225]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18243 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:45:21 -0400 Received: from PJARAMAZ [10.10.10.34] by ingenico.com.au [10.10.10.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP0.R) for ; Thu, 14 May 98 12:47:27 +1000 Received: by PJARAMAZ with Microsoft Mail id <01BD7F36.3EFA6240@PJARAMAZ >; Thu, 14 May 1998 12:45:59 +1000 Message-ID: <01BD7F36.3EFA6240@PJARAMAZ > From: Peter Jaramaz To: "'diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu'" Subject: RE: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:45:58 +1000 Encoding: 35 TEXT, 49 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Hi Bruce, C008 in the 808 is definetely a bitmap and is used throughout the code for various things,some of which I sin't figured out PJ ---------- From: Bruce Plecan Sent: Thursday, May 14, 1998 9:56 AM To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Re: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 7:12 PM >Anyone tell me what offset 008 in the '808 is for. Its a config flag but so far only worked out one bits for Auto / man....... >Cheers, >PJ >From: Mike Hoenes >The other is at offset 0008. Stock is 8D, the VATS disable file has AA. >Can anyone tell me what offset 0008 is for? I thought, 0008 was the checksum disable (when AA)..... But, haven't personnally been able to verify that.. In my mind to disable something, that switch would have to be turned off, the checksum would change, and the malfunction flags would need to be changed, right, or am I missing something?. Anyone?. Or is the 730 that different?. Bruce Gee, a new reason for wearing Cone Shaped Hats. Does it ever end?. begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(CL"`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````80`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO M+7-T871E+F5D=0!33510`&1I>5]E9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E M+F5D=0`````>``(P`0````4```!33510`````!X``S !````(@```&1I>5]E M9FE 969I,S,R+F5N9RYO:&EO+7-T871E+F5D=0````,`%0P!`````P#^#P8` M```>``$P`0```"0````G9&EY7V5F:4!E9FDS,S(N96YG+F]H:6\M`' ``0```"D```!2 M13H@.3$@25)/0R!,.3@@0FEN(&9I;&4@3V9F``@0`0```&4```!(24)254-%+$,P,#A) M3E1(13@P.$E31$5&24Y%5$5,64%"251-05!!3D1)4U5314142%)/54=(3U54 M5$A%0T]$149/4E9!4DE/55-42$E.1U,L4T]-14]&5TA)0TA)4TE.5$9)```` M``(!"1 !````^0,``/4#```4!P``3%I&=?&J6HO_``H!#P(5`J0#Y 7K`H,` M4!,#5 (`8V@*P'-E=.XR!@`&PP*#,@/&!Q,"@[HS$PU]"H (SPG9.Q7_>#(U M-0* "H$-L0M@;O!G,3 S%" +"A+R# $"8P! ($AI($)R,'5C92P*A0J%0S ( M,#@@"X @=&AE?" X''($( VQ"X 2`&4`;'D@82!B:72E`,!P'B!N9!U"=1'P MQQ[@'- #8'5G: A@!4"W'-(%H VP( (0!:0A@!" [## HAD8#83HJ#BB& M]PR"&P0DT&P%D !P*:\JO4\&8 (P*^\L^U1H"'!SL&1A>2P%T#,`("9@$3,@ M,3DY'( Y.C6:-A-P32Z/*KU4;S#/H2S[9&EY7QV10!V1B1E ,BX)\& Y8&1UXS2/+YYU8FHHP3:O+/L44F4]`#D:P$E23^A#($PSX4(< MH1V@+C#,($\-T!'Q('$*4#H`?R$P+G8*CPN1%"(,`2B&1+LZ(3T`5PF '< R MZ3,SI6@W.C$2(% T=AM\/OA!;GD"(!SP'>$#("(1WR)P.B B,4"3'&DG'14@ MP;HN(L!T!" >, 6@;B-1=R"P"V!+D&(@`2'P0=5FUPK!`B >`7<%L&LCI$T! M'QSP'E%*01S8RH"(A'-%_!< =44C*''!*P 8`3P!C,FL=0CA$,R @"+09. $$"&A0=5EYVX_54%'M'$R3U03'-(W_#,P9H0X@ W0!) PD7$P M]V &+=-TLD<)X&L1;8$'X.\6`%>P`B @LW=UP 40&0"['$!9`E,1P&% 'N!( M.B!V%U$4L $(!Y@(/YE8M%YP![0<]=!;QF?*(8+>U45(0!^, ````,` M$! ``````P`1$ $```! ``)^O0% ``@PX+Y;2>)^O0$>`#T``0`` 7``4```!213H@``````,`#33]-P``*:]^ ` end From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 22:47:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA18298 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:47:31 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18293 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:47:30 -0400 Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id WAA20702; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:47:30 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts005d22.okc-ok.concentric.net [206.173.130.130]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id WAA15773; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980513214629.006b1808@pop3.cris.com> X-Sender: johnhess@pop3.cris.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:46:29 -0500 To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu From: John Hess Subject: Re: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question In-Reply-To: <199805131536.LAA08412@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Rather than reset the checksum of the EPROM, whoever disabled the VATS got lazy and simply set the EPROM to "Experimental" TO do it right, Leave 0008 at &H8D, Sum up 0008 through the end of the PROM (simply add each of the successive numbers to "0"), convert to HEX and write the two least significant bits at 06 and 07, respectively. At 11:35 AM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote: >For a 1227730 ECU - >Comparing a stock file to a VATS disable file there are only two >differences. >One is at 0016 - which the stock 10 is changed to 00 (i understand that this >is the VATS/NOVATS flag ) >The other is at offset 0008. Stock is 8D, the VATS disable file has AA. >Can anyone tell me what offset 0008 is for? >Also, does anyone have a map to the offsets to disable warning codes for a >730? > >TIA > >mike > - > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 22:50:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA18391 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:50:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ns1.foothill.net (root@ns1.foothill.net [206.170.175.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18385 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:50:50 -0400 Received: from terryk (tahoe-d33.foothill.net [209.76.43.33]) by ns1.foothill.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA20153 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:50:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "TBK" To: Subject: Re: Same MPU, different proms Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:48:58 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd7ee2$d7b95d00$212b4cd1@terryk.foothill.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu I did it with the Syclone code in my 7730. I just moved the code to the upper 128K (FFFF down). TK -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 5:40 PM Subject: Same MPU, different proms >On this 730/165 issue they both use the same processor, right?. >The difference is one uses a 128K prom, and the other a 256K. >Now, if ya offset load the 128 into the 256 you can run it, can you >just run the 128K memcal?. ie, use a 749 memcal in a 730 >for say a 6 cyl map, to 6cyl map application using all the same >mechanicals?. Of course assuming the wiring is right. >Bruce > > From diy_efi-owner Wed May 13 22:56:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from mail@localhost) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA18529 for diy_efi-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:56:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: esl.eng.ohio-state.edu: mail set sender to owner-diy_efi using -f Received: from ns1.foothill.net (root@ns1.foothill.net [206.170.175.1]) by esl.eng.ohio-state.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18525 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:56:09 -0400 Received: from terryk (tahoe-d33.foothill.net [209.76.43.33]) by ns1.foothill.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA21136 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:55:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "TBK" To: Subject: Re: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:54:15 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd7ee3$94b04d60$212b4cd1@terryk.foothill.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu For the same ECM, the location of any specific item will vary between applications. For example on the 165 ECM, the location of spark is different between the Camaro and the Vette. Same ECM, different places. Everything else is the same. So you can't usually ask by ECM, but by application (car, year, tranny, 49 state/CA, day of the week.) TK -----Original Message----- From: Mike Hoenes To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 9:08 AM Subject: 91 IROC L98 Bin file Offset question >For a 1227730 ECU - >Comparing a stock file to a VATS disable file there are only two >differences. >One is at 0016 - which the stock 10 is changed to 00 (i understand that this >is the VATS/NOVATS flag ) >The other is at offset 0008. Stock is 8D, the VATS disable file has AA. >Can anyone tell me what offset 0008