From mdacmail at optusnet.com.au Tue Aug 1 01:36:30 2006 From: mdacmail at optusnet.com.au (mdacmail at optusnet.com.au) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:36:30 +1000 Subject: [Diy_efi] GM connectors Message-ID: <200608010636.k716aUL5031380@mail03.syd.optusnet.com.au> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.diy-efi.org/pipermail/diy_efi/attachments/20060801/578d7ae7/attachment.pl From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Tue Aug 1 10:41:43 2006 From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:41:43 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project Message-ID: Got the 1947 Ford 8N retrofit 1987 Ford 3.0 L V6 EEC IV Running. Have some photos I can sent off list to 8N heads out there. ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Tue Aug 1 11:22:05 2006 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 11:22:05 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] wire and terminal suppliers Message-ID: Waytek Wire sells wire and the weatherpack GM connectors, crimping tools, etc. I think they may have high minimums though. Maybe you can just buy the terminals new, and use junkyard harnesses/connectors. --steve > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield > Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 6:23 PM > To: efi list > Subject: [Diy_efi] wire and terminal suppliers > > Hello all, > Im going to be doing another swap any good suppliers of > 18-20g wire in multiple colors... especially GM green, pink > blue etc... also the termanials that late model gm > connectors use???? > > thx > jim > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. From brian at brianmacy.com Tue Aug 1 12:16:32 2006 From: brian at brianmacy.com (Brian Macy ~ Horsepower Connection.com) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:16:32 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1 Message-ID: <003501c6b58e$3ca4e1e0$6501a8c0@dddbigcans> We build harnesses for FAST, Accel and soon Big Stuff 3. We have a good selection of wire and connectors. We have several GM style connectors in stock. Good luck with Delphi... even people like us who build harnesses and use their connectors generally have a hard time getting them. Brian Macy Fast Track Performance.com 360-280-6112 -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org Sent: None To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1 Send Diy_efi mailing list submissions to diy_efi at diy-efi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org You can reach the person managing the list at diy_efi-owner at diy-efi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Diy_efi digest..." Today's Topics: 1. GM connectors (mdacmail at optusnet.com.au) 2. Ford 8N Injection project (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) 3. RE: wire and terminal suppliers (Steve Ravet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:36:30 +1000 From: mdacmail at optusnet.com.au Subject: [Diy_efi] GM connectors To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Message-ID: <200608010636.k716aUL5031380 at mail03.syd.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Packard 1214 6448 terminals were used in a lot of GM harnesses in the 80's and 90's if that helps...try powerandsignal.com.....Matt > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 16:23:05 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim Butterfield > Subject: [Diy_efi] wire and terminal suppliers > To: efi list > Message-ID: <20060730232305.9005.qmail at web36715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Hello all, > Im going to be doing another swap any good suppliers of 18-20g wire in > multiple colors... especially GM green, pink blue etc... also the > termanials that late model gm connectors use???? > > thx > jim > > > --------------------------------- > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great > rates starting at 1?/min. > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > End of Diy_efi Digest, Vol 17, Issue 28 > *************************************** ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:41:43 -0500 From: Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Got the 1947 Ford 8N retrofit 1987 Ford 3.0 L V6 EEC IV Running. Have some photos I can sent off list to 8N heads out there. ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 11:22:05 -0500 From: "Steve Ravet" Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] wire and terminal suppliers To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Waytek Wire sells wire and the weatherpack GM connectors, crimping tools, etc. I think they may have high minimums though. Maybe you can just buy the terminals new, and use junkyard harnesses/connectors. --steve > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield > Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 6:23 PM > To: efi list > Subject: [Diy_efi] wire and terminal suppliers > > Hello all, > Im going to be doing another swap any good suppliers of > 18-20g wire in multiple colors... especially GM green, pink > blue etc... also the termanials that late model gm > connectors use???? > > thx > jim > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi End of Diy_efi Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1 ************************************** From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Tue Aug 1 12:17:50 2006 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] wire and terminal suppliers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060801171750.7756.qmail@web36702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks for the Link Steve, I have been using most junkyard connectors up to now and just solder them and heat shrink them. Got a Waytek catalog comming thx jim Steve Ravet wrote: Waytek Wire sells wire and the weatherpack GM connectors, crimping tools, etc. I think they may have high minimums though. Maybe you can just buy the terminals new, and use junkyard harnesses/connectors. --steve > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield > Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 6:23 PM > To: efi list > Subject: [Diy_efi] wire and terminal suppliers > > Hello all, > Im going to be doing another swap any good suppliers of > 18-20g wire in multiple colors... especially GM green, pink > blue etc... also the termanials that late model gm > connectors use???? > > thx > jim > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free. From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Tue Aug 1 12:39:54 2006 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <003501c6b58e$3ca4e1e0$6501a8c0@dddbigcans> Message-ID: <20060801173954.62943.qmail@web36715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 360-xxx-xxxx area code... wow, your right next door... Im south of you in portland, I'll have to check out your site... I really dont want to buy the pins by the 100 bag if I dont have to, and would like to get some connectors but again, dont want to have to buy 30pk... jim "Brian Macy ~ Horsepower Connection.com" wrote: We build harnesses for FAST, Accel and soon Big Stuff 3. We have a good selection of wire and connectors. We have several GM style connectors in stock. Good luck with Delphi... even people like us who build harnesses and use their connectors generally have a hard time getting them. Brian Macy Fast Track Performance.com 360-280-6112 -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org Sent: None To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1 Send Diy_efi mailing list submissions to diy_efi at diy-efi.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org You can reach the person managing the list at diy_efi-owner at diy-efi.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Diy_efi digest..." Today's Topics: 1. GM connectors (mdacmail at optusnet.com.au) 2. Ford 8N Injection project (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) 3. RE: wire and terminal suppliers (Steve Ravet) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:36:30 +1000 From: mdacmail at optusnet.com.au Subject: [Diy_efi] GM connectors To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Message-ID: <200608010636.k716aUL5031380 at mail03.syd.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Packard 1214 6448 terminals were used in a lot of GM harnesses in the 80's and 90's if that helps...try powerandsignal.com.....Matt > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 16:23:05 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jim Butterfield > Subject: [Diy_efi] wire and terminal suppliers > To: efi list > Message-ID: <20060730232305.9005.qmail at web36715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Hello all, > Im going to be doing another swap any good suppliers of 18-20g wire in > multiple colors... especially GM green, pink blue etc... also the > termanials that late model gm connectors use???? > > thx > jim > > > --------------------------------- > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great > rates starting at 1?/min. > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > > End of Diy_efi Digest, Vol 17, Issue 28 > *************************************** ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:41:43 -0500 From: Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Got the 1947 Ford 8N retrofit 1987 Ford 3.0 L V6 EEC IV Running. Have some photos I can sent off list to 8N heads out there. ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 11:22:05 -0500 From: "Steve Ravet" Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] wire and terminal suppliers To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Waytek Wire sells wire and the weatherpack GM connectors, crimping tools, etc. I think they may have high minimums though. Maybe you can just buy the terminals new, and use junkyard harnesses/connectors. --steve > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield > Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 6:23 PM > To: efi list > Subject: [Diy_efi] wire and terminal suppliers > > Hello all, > Im going to be doing another swap any good suppliers of > 18-20g wire in multiple colors... especially GM green, pink > blue etc... also the termanials that late model gm > connectors use???? > > thx > jim > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi End of Diy_efi Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1 ************************************** _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out. From efi at dyakron.com Tue Aug 1 15:09:47 2006 From: efi at dyakron.com (Mike V) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:09:47 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060801160913.02c0fa50@dyakron.com> Thanks, I'd love to see the pics. Picked up a 8N last week. MV At 10:41 AM 8/1/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Got the 1947 Ford 8N retrofit 1987 Ford 3.0 L V6 EEC IV Running. Have >some photos I can sent off list to 8N heads out there. From gpbeau at cox.net Tue Aug 1 16:38:18 2006 From: gpbeau at cox.net (gpbeau at cox.net) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:38:18 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] wire and terminal suppliers Message-ID: <20019246.1154468303467.JavaMail.root@fed1wml09.mgt.cox.net> Jim, NAPA auto parts carries the Weatherpack connectors in many of their stores. They carry a decent assortment of connector bodies, pins, seals, removal tools, etc. You may have to find a counter guy willing to look up the part numbers in their catalog and you may have to find out which store in town carries the best assortment. You can buy as little or as much as you want. Garrett ---- Jim Butterfield wrote: > Hello all, > Im going to be doing another swap any good suppliers of 18-20g wire in multiple colors... especially GM green, pink blue etc... also the termanials that late model gm connectors use???? > > thx > jim > > > --------------------------------- > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1?/min. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From frankmccracken at shaw.ca Tue Aug 1 22:31:01 2006 From: frankmccracken at shaw.ca (Frank McCracken) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:31:01 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project References: Message-ID: <001b01c6b5e4$1416b040$6401a8c0@flamingo> Pick Me! I have a 9n. Frank. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:41 AM Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project Got the 1947 Ford 8N retrofit 1987 Ford 3.0 L V6 EEC IV Running. Have some photos I can sent off list to 8N heads out there. ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 From Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com Wed Aug 2 07:53:14 2006 From: Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com (Van Setten, Tim @ ACSSD) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 05:53:14 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project In-Reply-To: <001b01c6b5e4$1416b040$6401a8c0@flamingo> Message-ID: <8846C6D2B241184780AAFD4C43D2B74B064DFF@LIBERTY.phx.acssd.l-3com.com> Hey, me too! I have a 1954 "Golden Jubilee" (a kissin' cousin to the 8N). I had to put a MSD on it just to keep the plugs clean. Count me in too!.....Tim. From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Wed Aug 2 08:07:46 2006 From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:07:46 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project In-Reply-To: <001b01c6b5e4$1416b040$6401a8c0@flamingo> Message-ID: Hi Frank: I would be glad to send the photos to an off list address so it wont clog up the DIY list. Thanks Don -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Frank McCracken Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:31 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project Pick Me! I have a 9n. Frank. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:41 AM Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project Got the 1947 Ford 8N retrofit 1987 Ford 3.0 L V6 EEC IV Running. Have some photos I can sent off list to 8N heads out there. ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** From vmike at okstate.edu Wed Aug 2 08:23:20 2006 From: vmike at okstate.edu (Mike Veldman) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 08:23:20 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project In-Reply-To: References: <001b01c6b5e4$1416b040$6401a8c0@flamingo> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20060802082147.01c94cf0@mail.ceat.okstate.edu> Please post where you decide to host the pictures so we can look them over. I also have an 8n, doubt I'd convert it, but ya never know. mike From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Wed Aug 2 08:27:01 2006 From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:27:01 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20060802082147.01c94cf0@mail.ceat.okstate.edu> Message-ID: Hi Mike: I don't have anyplace to host the pics, If you have any suggestions I would send them there, I have more of the build up. Dale is working on the gas tank and hood now. If you look at the oil filter photo you can see the thick 1 inch adapter plate Dale had made to get everything lined up. Take Care Don -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Mike Veldman Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:23 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project Please post where you decide to host the pictures so we can look them over. I also have an 8n, doubt I'd convert it, but ya never know. mike _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** From frankmccracken at shaw.ca Wed Aug 2 09:32:02 2006 From: frankmccracken at shaw.ca (Frank McCracken) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 07:32:02 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project References: Message-ID: <00dd01c6b641$c9fd2da0$6401a8c0@flamingo> Hi Don; If you get a chance I would love to see those pics at: frankmccracken at shaw.ca or info at flamingomotel.ca Regards, Frank. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 6:07 AM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project Hi Frank: I would be glad to send the photos to an off list address so it wont clog up the DIY list. Thanks Don -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Frank McCracken Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 10:31 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project Pick Me! I have a 9n. Frank. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:41 AM Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project Got the 1947 Ford 8N retrofit 1987 Ford 3.0 L V6 EEC IV Running. Have some photos I can sent off list to 8N heads out there. ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Wed Aug 2 22:40:37 2006 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 22:40:37 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project Message-ID: Don and all, this is what the twiki I installed is for. You can easily upload pictures and add text to create an article. I'd really like to see more member contributed material on there. Don, go to the main WWW page (www.diy-efi.org) and click diy_efi, then click twiki, then click edit. You can type text in and upload photos. Send me an email off list if you need help. --steve > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of > don.broadus at exeloncorp.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:27 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project > > Hi Mike: I don't have anyplace to host the pics, If you have > any suggestions I would send them there, I have more of the > build up. Dale is working on the gas tank and hood now. If > you look at the oil filter photo you can see the thick 1 inch > adapter plate Dale had made to get everything lined up. > Take Care Don > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Mike Veldman > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:23 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project > > > Please post where you decide to host the pictures so we can > look them over. I also have an 8n, doubt I'd convert it, but > ya never know. > > mike > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > ----------------------------------------- > ******************************************************************* > ***** > This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon > Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, > confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon > Corporation family of Companies. > This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual > or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified > that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action > taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this > e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you > have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy > of this e-mail and any printout. > Thank You. > ******************************************************************* > ***** > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. From ebuckler at icehouse.net Wed Aug 2 23:52:12 2006 From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:52:12 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] eBay Seller: dentedtwo: Industrial Electrical Test, Internet Games items on eBay.com Message-ID: <025401c6b6b8$95d4b260$0300a8c0@clive> Huge lots of surplus chips, eproms, etc. 13 seperate listings. cheap. >From a mfgr cleaning out a warehouse. Ernie http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZdentedtwo From niche at iinet.net.au Thu Aug 3 07:35:23 2006 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 20:35:23 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] eBay Seller: dentedtwo: Industrial Electrical Test, Internet Games items on eBay.com In-Reply-To: <025401c6b6b8$95d4b260$0300a8c0@clive> References: <025401c6b6b8$95d4b260$0300a8c0@clive> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060803203311.026b7090@iinet.net.au>> At 12:52 PM 8/3/06, you wrote: >Huge lots of surplus chips, eproms, etc. 13 seperate listings. cheap. From a mfgr cleaning out a warehouse. > >Ernie > >http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZdentedtwo Interesting thanks, might be able to use some cpus for small project and am already familiar with the type and programming model :o) Anyone able to identify the USA versions of the cars that use the plastic fuse rail setup in the engine bay, as used in Australia, the GMC part numbers are on my web site below, I'm just looking to list my product on USA ebay as well as Aust ebay etc ? Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia GMC/VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Thu Aug 3 08:53:21 2006 From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:53:21 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Steve : I will give it a try, I had gone there a few times and not being a web guy I got kinda overwhelmed, I'm afraid I'll crash the program with the wrong key stroke. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Steve Ravet Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 10:41 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project Don and all, this is what the twiki I installed is for. You can easily upload pictures and add text to create an article. I'd really like to see more member contributed material on there. Don, go to the main WWW page (www.diy-efi.org) and click diy_efi, then click twiki, then click edit. You can type text in and upload photos. Send me an email off list if you need help. --steve > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of > don.broadus at exeloncorp.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:27 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project > > Hi Mike: I don't have anyplace to host the pics, If you have > any suggestions I would send them there, I have more of the > build up. Dale is working on the gas tank and hood now. If > you look at the oil filter photo you can see the thick 1 inch > adapter plate Dale had made to get everything lined up. > Take Care Don > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Mike Veldman > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:23 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project > > > Please post where you decide to host the pictures so we can > look them over. I also have an 8n, doubt I'd convert it, but > ya never know. > > mike > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > ----------------------------------------- > ******************************************************************* > ***** > This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon > Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, > confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon > Corporation family of Companies. > This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual > or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified > that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action > taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this > e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you > have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy > of this e-mail and any printout. > Thank You. > ******************************************************************* > ***** > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Thu Aug 3 09:56:05 2006 From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:56:05 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Will Do Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Steve Ravet Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 10:41 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project Don and all, this is what the twiki I installed is for. You can easily upload pictures and add text to create an article. I'd really like to see more member contributed material on there. Don, go to the main WWW page (www.diy-efi.org) and click diy_efi, then click twiki, then click edit. You can type text in and upload photos. Send me an email off list if you need help. --steve > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of > don.broadus at exeloncorp.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:27 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project > > Hi Mike: I don't have anyplace to host the pics, If you have > any suggestions I would send them there, I have more of the > build up. Dale is working on the gas tank and hood now. If > you look at the oil filter photo you can see the thick 1 inch > adapter plate Dale had made to get everything lined up. > Take Care Don > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Mike Veldman > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 8:23 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Ford 8N Injection project > > > Please post where you decide to host the pictures so we can > look them over. I also have an 8n, doubt I'd convert it, but > ya never know. > > mike > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > ----------------------------------------- > ******************************************************************* > ***** > This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon > Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, > confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon > Corporation family of Companies. > This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual > or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the > intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified > that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action > taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this > e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you > have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy > of this e-mail and any printout. > Thank You. > ******************************************************************* > ***** > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** From b.shaw at comcast.net Sat Aug 5 21:38:20 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 22:38:20 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Bosch 30014 transistor Message-ID: <44D5561C.2040404@comcast.net> Does anyone have a source for a 30014 transistor used in the Bosch 261 200 402 DME? This is in a '92 E36 series BMW. One of the coil packs fried and took out the coil driver in the ECU. Barring that, anyone have a dead DME that I might scrounge one from? Thanks, Bill From niche at iinet.net.au Sun Aug 6 01:56:14 2006 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 14:56:14 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] [ot] Specs for UniPoint "ALT-V004" Uni0506 ? Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060806144553.026b7960@iinet.net.au>> Hi chaps, (As its so quiet...) I recently won this auction for a combo alternator and vacuum pump:- http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&item=190012098484 Took off the vacuum pump and have a splined shaft about 1.5" long so I can attach a power steering pump to. The alternator side is 12v 95A and has the usual three connections:- 1. Output to battery (A nice hefty bolt) 2. A 2 pin plug on the side which must be regulator input and the drive for the charge fail light. Looks like a Bosch type temp sensor or injector type plug and easy to attach. The alternator P/N is "ALT-V004" and "UNI0506" I've sent an email off to Unipoint to request specs but as they are in Taiwan, not sure when I'll get a reply, So I'm curious if anyone is familiar with this model and/or has specs on it, such as identifying which pin on the 2 pin connector is what and whether the drive to the charge fail light is active low (pull from 12v) or source etc ? btw: The cast supports for the vacuum pump I took off look quite strong and when I have machined a plate they should take a power steering pump, so at long last I will be able to move the old one from the other side of the engine along with its heavy support bracket, bit of messing around with pipes but hey, thats par for the course :) Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Sun Aug 6 10:33:18 2006 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 10:33:18 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] need a switch Message-ID: I inserted a pushbutton switch into a PCB project I'm working on, and now I can't find an actual switch that matches the PCB layout. Maybe it's a European style? Here's the PCB layout: http://www.diy-efi.org/twiki/bin/viewfile.pl/Diy_efi/DiyEfiScratch?rev=1 ;filename=switch.bmp Can anyone suggest where I might source a switch with this PCB pattern in the US? I've been through the digikey catalog but can't find it. --steve ------------------- Steve Ravet ARM steve.ravet at arm.com -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. From b.shaw at comcast.net Sun Aug 6 11:40:54 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 12:40:54 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] need a switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D61B96.30004@comcast.net> Do you have a part number and manufacturer for the switch? What is it? toggle? momentary contact? spdt? If all else fails you could use some hook-up wire to wire another switch in, then build up a pile of epoxy (or hot glue if it's not used in a hot environment) to physically support the switch. Or you could drill a new hole pattern for a different switch and use hook-up wire to connect it. hth Bill Steve Ravet wrote: > I inserted a pushbutton switch into a PCB project I'm working on, and > now I can't find an actual switch that matches the PCB layout. Maybe > it's a European style? Here's the PCB layout: > > http://www.diy-efi.org/twiki/bin/viewfile.pl/Diy_efi/DiyEfiScratch?rev=1 > ;filename=switch.bmp > > Can anyone suggest where I might source a switch with this PCB pattern > in the US? I've been through the digikey catalog but can't find it. > > --steve > > ------------------- > Steve Ravet > ARM > steve.ravet at arm.com > > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From niche at iinet.net.au Sun Aug 6 13:47:59 2006 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 02:47:59 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] need a switch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060807024554.026b9ab0@iinet.net.au>> At 11:33 PM 8/6/06, you wrote: >I inserted a pushbutton switch into a PCB project I'm working on, and >now I can't find an actual switch that matches the PCB layout. Maybe >it's a European style? Here's the PCB layout: > >http://www.diy-efi.org/twiki/bin/viewfile.pl/Diy_efi/DiyEfiScratch?rev=1;filename=switch.bmp > >Can anyone suggest where I might source a switch with this PCB pattern >in the US? I've been through the digikey catalog but can't find it. (Took wordwrap off your post) Looks to me like a Japanese one, similar to the ones I've sourced from Taiwan as well, is this a momentary changeover. ie. Normally connects centre to left but when pressed connects centre to right for period of press ? Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Sun Aug 6 17:24:26 2006 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 17:24:26 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] need a switch Message-ID: Sorry, the intention was to have a spst momentary switch, normally open. It's a reset switch. What I ended up with is a SPDT, oops. I have done just as you suggested with wires and the correct switch and hot glue but for the couple more boards I have to build I'd like to have the right switch, if it's something I can get reasonably. I don't have a manufacturer or part number or anything else, it's just a switch I put into the schematic from the library without checking availability first. Made that mistake with a few other parts also, won't do that again. --steve > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Bill - Comcast > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 11:41 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] need a switch > > Do you have a part number and manufacturer for the switch? > What is it? > toggle? momentary contact? spdt? > > If all else fails you could use some hook-up wire to wire > another switch in, then build up a pile of epoxy (or hot > glue if it's not used in a hot environment) to physically > support the switch. Or you could drill a new hole pattern > for a different switch and use hook-up wire to connect it. > > hth > > Bill > > Steve Ravet wrote: > > I inserted a pushbutton switch into a PCB project I'm > working on, and > > now I can't find an actual switch that matches the PCB > layout. Maybe > > it's a European style? Here's the PCB layout: > > > > > http://www.diy-efi.org/twiki/bin/viewfile.pl/Diy_efi/DiyEfiScratch?rev > > =1 > > ;filename=switch.bmp > > > > Can anyone suggest where I might source a switch with this > PCB pattern > > in the US? I've been through the digikey catalog but can't find it. > > > > --steve > > > > ------------------- > > Steve Ravet > > ARM > > steve.ravet at arm.com > > > > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any > attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If > you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender > immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other > person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the > information in any medium. Thank you. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Sun Aug 6 17:26:34 2006 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 17:26:34 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] need a switch Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 1:48 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] need a switch > > At 11:33 PM 8/6/06, you wrote: > >I inserted a pushbutton switch into a PCB project I'm > working on, and > >now I can't find an actual switch that matches the PCB > layout. Maybe > >it's a European style? Here's the PCB layout: > > > >http://www.diy-efi.org/twiki/bin/viewfile.pl/Diy_efi/DiyEfiSc > ratch?rev= > >1;filename=switch.bmp > > > >Can anyone suggest where I might source a switch with this > PCB pattern > >in the US? I've been through the digikey catalog but can't find it. > > (Took wordwrap off your post) > > Looks to me like a Japanese one, similar to the ones I've > sourced from Taiwan as well, is this a momentary changeover. > ie. Normally connects centre to left but when pressed > connects centre to right for period of press ? > Yes, after checking the layout that is it's function. As I wrote in another post it's not even the function I wanted, just wasn't paying attention when I inserted it. Can you point me to the distributor you purchased your switches from? thanks, --steve -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. From stuartghall at hotmail.com Mon Aug 7 03:20:48 2006 From: stuartghall at hotmail.com (Stuart Hall) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 18:20:48 +1000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Bosch 30014 transistor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Does anyone have a source for a 30014 transistor used in the Bosch 261 >200 402 DME? This is in a '92 E36 series BMW. One of the coil packs >fried and took out the coil driver in the ECU. Hi Bill, You could try www.digchip.com to search for that part... you will need to register for free, and it is worth taking the time... searching for that part number returned several hits for suppliers.. You might want to double check it was the coil that caused the damage too, I suspect that if the output transistor failed on it might have cooked the coil pack instead of the other way around.. hope this helps! Stu From b.shaw at comcast.net Mon Aug 7 07:39:48 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 08:39:48 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Bosch 30014 transistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D73494.1030009@comcast.net> Hey Stu, Digichip shows a couple of high current diodes and a high current SCR with that part number. Not the correct parts. The failure probably could have happened either way, but is commonly described as coil pack failure causing the DME failure on the BMW forums. The new coil pack hasn't melted yet :-) Thanks for the response, Bill Stuart Hall wrote: >> Does anyone have a source for a 30014 transistor used in the Bosch 261 >> 200 402 DME? This is in a '92 E36 series BMW. One of the coil packs >> fried and took out the coil driver in the ECU. > > Hi Bill, You could try www.digchip.com to search for that part... you > will need to register for free, and it is worth taking the time... > searching for that part number returned several hits for suppliers.. > > You might want to double check it was the coil that caused the damage > too, I suspect that if the output transistor failed on it might have > cooked the coil pack instead of the other way around.. > > hope this helps! > > Stu > From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Mon Aug 7 13:32:34 2006 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 13:32:34 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] scratch area created Message-ID: I have created scratch areas for both gmecm and diy_efi. The lists are configured to reject attachments, so things of a temporary nature that you would have otherwise sent as an attachment, can now go in the scratch area. It's simple to upload files here, so I would recommend starting to use it rather than the FTP site. To get there, go to www.diy-efi.org, click the list name, click TWiki, then look for the scratch article and click it. The scratch article has further directions for uploading. --steve ------------------- Steve Ravet ARM steve.ravet at arm.com -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. From airhawk at hawkgt.net Mon Aug 7 14:50:18 2006 From: airhawk at hawkgt.net (Scott C) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:50:18 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Bosch 30014 transistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One of my favourite places to search for electronic debris is www.findchips.com - no registration needed. It's sort of the "dogpile" of the micro world, it looks for parts with a whole or partial number across about a dozen suppliers simultaneously. -Scott Creech > >Does anyone have a source for a 30014 transistor used in the Bosch 261 > >200 402 DME? This is in a '92 E36 series BMW. One of the coil packs > >fried and took out the coil driver in the ECU. > > Hi Bill, You could try www.digchip.com to search for that part... you > will > need to register for free, and it is worth taking the time... searching > for > that part number returned several hits for suppliers.. > > You might want to double check it was the coil that caused the damage > too, I > suspect that if the output transistor failed on it might have cooked > the > coil pack instead of the other way around.. > > hope this helps! > > Stu From b.shaw at comcast.net Mon Aug 7 16:10:42 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:10:42 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Bosch 30014 transistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D7AC52.6010106@comcast.net> Thanks Scott. A number of substring matches there but no power transistors. Best, Bill Scott C wrote: > One of my favourite places to search for electronic debris is > www.findchips.com - no registration needed. It's sort of the "dogpile" of > the micro world, it looks for parts with a whole or partial number across > about a dozen suppliers simultaneously. > > -Scott Creech > > > >>> Does anyone have a source for a 30014 transistor used in the Bosch 261 >>> 200 402 DME? This is in a '92 E36 series BMW. One of the coil packs >>> fried and took out the coil driver in the ECU. >>> >> Hi Bill, You could try www.digchip.com to search for that part... you >> will >> need to register for free, and it is worth taking the time... searching >> for >> that part number returned several hits for suppliers.. >> >> You might want to double check it was the coil that caused the damage >> too, I >> suspect that if the output transistor failed on it might have cooked >> the >> coil pack instead of the other way around.. >> >> hope this helps! >> >> Stu >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From spyro at f2s.com Mon Aug 7 19:33:13 2006 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 01:33:13 +0100 Subject: [Diy_efi] Bosch 30014 transistor In-Reply-To: <44D7AC52.6010106@comcast.net> References: <44D7AC52.6010106@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44D7DBC9.5030405@f2s.com> Bill - Comcast wrote: > Thanks Scott. A number of substring matches there but no power transistors cant you just put something big and meaty in there? From b.shaw at comcast.net Tue Aug 8 10:08:30 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:08:30 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] 3484S4 data sheet Message-ID: <44D8A8EE.90001@comcast.net> Anyone have a Motorola MC3484S4 datasheet in their archives? I'm trouble shooting an obsolete piece of equipment and this data sheet would help but I can't find it on the net. Thanks, Bill From dgilbert78 at juno.com Tue Aug 8 10:48:26 2006 From: dgilbert78 at juno.com (dgilbert78 at juno.com) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:48:26 GMT Subject: [Diy_efi] 3484S4 data sheet Message-ID: <20060808.084834.3967.628210@webmail05.lax.untd.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.diy-efi.org/pipermail/diy_efi/attachments/20060808/6d3e6377/attachment.pl -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: MC3483EQUIV.txt Url: http://lists.diy-efi.org/pipermail/diy_efi/attachments/20060808/6d3e6377/attachment.txt From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Tue Aug 8 10:58:16 2006 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 08:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto Message-ID: <20060808155816.16537.qmail@web36703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi all, I mostly work with ODBII type pontiacs, so im unfamilar... a buddy is wanting to take the eng trans from a 93 GP and use it in a sand rail... what type of computer does this have and how programable is it??? He will want to work the engine a little with a cam headers and even maybe some head work, so the VE for the speed density system will be a bit out of wack im sure.... any help is appreciated... I will be searching some of the w-body/grand am / N-body sites as well for info, but was curious what this group has... thx jim --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. From b.shaw at comcast.net Tue Aug 8 11:02:59 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:02:59 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] 3484S4 data sheet In-Reply-To: <20060808.084834.3967.628210@webmail05.lax.untd.com> References: <20060808.084834.3967.628210@webmail05.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <44D8B5B3.9020303@comcast.net> Thanks Darryl, looks like it might be it. Best, Bill dgilbert78 at juno.com wrote: > Hope this works for you, try this link > Darryl equiv part, replacement part > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/1317.pdf > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From llemoine at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 13:17:36 2006 From: llemoine at gmail.com (Lee M. Lemoine) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 14:17:36 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto In-Reply-To: <20060808155816.16537.qmail@web36703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060808155816.16537.qmail@web36703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hey Jim, The 3.1 is a pretty versatile motor -- depending upon what application your removing it from (in your case, a W-body) it'll have a 127727 ECM -- very modifiable. I personally have a Mclaren 3.1 turbo which is essentially the same block with a little different casting (oil returns, different oil distribution system) -- and am running a haltech E6GM re-wired to work with this engine... If i had known that three years later there'd be as much "plug and play" stuff out for the 3.1, i'd certainly have waited. I'm sure there are many programs out there, GMECM seems neat, although i haven't used it to do more than obtain the base timing tables for the 3.1turbo maps... (so i can program them into my haltech for base tuning) however, it does support romulation -- running code off of a virtual "prom" so that you can change values in real time... Sounds maybe more like what you may want to get into -- and those can be had for about $200 or so. The stock ECM will be pretty quick to respond -- even to mild motors.. Mine's got (okay, HAD... before i melted my pistons) a pretty wild cam, a ton of headwork, and the stock (for the mclaren) mahle low compression pistons... Let me know if there is anything you may need some help with, i actually picked up my 6th 3.1 yesterday, and plan to rebuild it to replace the mclaren block currently in my vehicle. -- Lee On 8/8/06, Jim Butterfield wrote: > > Hi all, > I mostly work with ODBII type pontiacs, so im unfamilar... a buddy is > wanting to take the eng trans from a 93 GP and use it in a sand rail... what > type of computer does this have and how programable is it??? He will want to > work the engine a little with a cam headers and even maybe some head work, > so the VE for the speed density system will be a bit out of wack im sure.... > any help is appreciated... I will be searching some of the w-body/grand am / > N-body sites as well for info, but was curious what this group has... > > thx > jim > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Tue Aug 8 14:04:31 2006 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060808190431.4702.qmail@web36713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks Lee, I got to get with my buddy and see this engine before he buys it to see if it is what he thinks it is... I'll post more when I find out jim "Lee M. Lemoine" wrote: Hey Jim, The 3.1 is a pretty versatile motor -- depending upon what application your removing it from (in your case, a W-body) it'll have a 127727 ECM -- very modifiable. I personally have a Mclaren 3.1 turbo which is essentially the same block with a little different casting (oil returns, different oil distribution system) -- and am running a haltech E6GM re-wired to work with this engine... If i had known that three years later there'd be as much "plug and play" stuff out for the 3.1, i'd certainly have waited. I'm sure there are many programs out there, GMECM seems neat, although i haven't used it to do more than obtain the base timing tables for the 3.1turbo maps... (so i can program them into my haltech for base tuning) however, it does support romulation -- running code off of a virtual "prom" so that you can change values in real time... Sounds maybe more like what you may want to get into -- and those can be had for about $200 or so. The stock ECM will be pretty quick to respond -- even to mild motors.. Mine's got (okay, HAD... before i melted my pistons) a pretty wild cam, a ton of headwork, and the stock (for the mclaren) mahle low compression pistons... Let me know if there is anything you may need some help with, i actually picked up my 6th 3.1 yesterday, and plan to rebuild it to replace the mclaren block currently in my vehicle. -- Lee On 8/8/06, Jim Butterfield wrote: > > Hi all, > I mostly work with ODBII type pontiacs, so im unfamilar... a buddy is > wanting to take the eng trans from a 93 GP and use it in a sand rail... what > type of computer does this have and how programable is it??? He will want to > work the engine a little with a cam headers and even maybe some head work, > so the VE for the speed density system will be a bit out of wack im sure.... > any help is appreciated... I will be searching some of the w-body/grand am / > N-body sites as well for info, but was curious what this group has... > > thx > jim > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com From atomic at extendwireless.net Wed Aug 9 01:19:42 2006 From: atomic at extendwireless.net (Charles Woock) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 01:19:42 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] MAP vs actual vacuum Message-ID: <001101c6bb7b$ce093800$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> Generally speaking... how much vacuum does it take to hit 20 on the MAP. The reason I ask is because my beast will idle at 800 with 14 inches of vacuum. So I'm trying to determine values for my spark table... Charles From leroy at sunflower.com Wed Aug 9 07:28:26 2006 From: leroy at sunflower.com (Jim Sloan) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 07:28:26 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] MAP vs actual vacuum In-Reply-To: <001101c6bb7b$ce093800$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> Message-ID: <000601c6bbaf$50b5a3f0$6601a8c0@james0uw35t2hd> 20 kpa is about 23 inches Hg vacuum, depending on atmospheric pressure. Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Charles Woock > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 1:20 AM > To: 1diy_efi mailing list > Subject: [Diy_efi] MAP vs actual vacuum > > Generally speaking... how much vacuum does it take to hit 20 > on the MAP. The reason I ask is because my beast will idle > at 800 with 14 inches of vacuum. So I'm trying to determine > values for my spark table... > > Charles > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From davida1 at hiwaay.net Wed Aug 9 07:43:36 2006 From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 07:43:36 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: +AFs-Diy+AF8-efi+AF0- MAP vs actual vacuum References: +ADw-001101c6bb7b+ACQ-ce093800+ACQ-02dea8c0+AEA-AIRBRIDGE+AD4- Message-ID: <00c701c6bbb1$72128660$0600a8c0@yancey.com> It's easy to figure this out. Vacuum is how much LESS pressure you have than atmospheric pressure. We can take for granted that atmospheric pressure is about 101.3 KPa or 14.7 PSI or 29.9 In Hg. This varies with altitude and weather but not by much. 20 KPa would be about 24+ACI-Hg Vac 14+ACI-Hg vac would be about 53.8KPa To convert from vacuum in Inches of Mercury to KPa, use the following formula: (29.9 - +AFs-In Hg Vac+AF0-) +ACo- 3.386388 +AD0-KPa To go from KPa to Inches of Mercury Vacuum: (101.3 - +AFs-KPa+AF0-) +ACo- 0.2952999 +AD0- In Hg Vacuum To go from PSI Boost (pressure GREATER than atmospheric) to KPa: (14.7 +- +AFs-boost PSI+AF0-) +ACo- 6.894757 +AD0- KPa To go ftom KPa to PSI Boost: (+AFs-KPa+AF0- - 101.3) +ACo- 0.1450377 +AD0- PSI Boost (someone good with math feel free to check over this+ACE-) What you have to remember is that KPa is absolute pressure. The MAP sensor contains a load cell which measures pressure relative to it's own internal standard. The ambient pressure around the exterior of the sensor makes no difference in the reading it takes from the pressure inside the fitting connected to the manifold. It is indipendent of atmospheric pressure. A mechanical pressure gauge, be it a boost/ vac gauge or a PSI gauge measures +ACI-gauge+ACI- pressure, or +ACI-relative+ACI- pressure. The reading reflects a difference between the pressure in the pressure on the gauge inlet fitting, and the ambient pressure around the gauge. A mechanical gauge is affected by the ambient pressure surrounding the gauge. Assuming the absolute pressure on the gauge inlet fitting remains constant, a low ambient pressure will increase the reading while a high ambient pressure will lower the reading. An electronic gauge with an absulute pressure transducer is immune to this. The transducer works like a MAP sensor (which is actually a transducer). My manifold gauge face is marked off in Inches Hg and PSI Boost, but it reads absolute. With the transducer sitting open on the table, the gauge will read near +ACI-0+ACI- Let a storm approach, and it will sit a little below zero because it is measuring absolute pressure. Even though pressure IN and AROUND the transducer dropped equally, it still measures the change because it does not depend on a difference in pressure inside and outside the transducer. A mechanical gauge sitting open will not reflect changes in atmospheric pressure because it is comparing pressure on the gauge inlet fitting against ambient atmospheric pressure. Both changed equally so there is no difference to display. They both have strengths and weaknesses. My absolute pressure gauge is marked showing vac and PSI which is a little misleading. But it has a large 4+ACI- backlighted face and the transducer cable is easier to route in the car than a vacuum hose. Plus it was free. :-) Later, David +AD4- Generally speaking... how much vacuum does it take to hit 20 on the MAP. The reason I ask is because my beast will idle at 800 with 14 inches of vacuum. So I'm trying to determine values for my spark table... From boucherj at prodigy.net Wed Aug 9 22:05:28 2006 From: boucherj at prodigy.net (Joe Boucher) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 22:05:28 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] GM early 90's V-6 MPFI In-Reply-To: <00c701c6bbb1$72128660$0600a8c0@yancey.com> Message-ID: Don't the early 90's V-6 engines with multiport fuel injection and DIS ignition use hall effect sensors and notched disks cast into the middle of the crank? Are there four notches in the disk, one for each cylinder and one to designate number one? Do they also use a cam sensor? Thanks, Joe B. From efi at dyakron.com Wed Aug 9 23:16:03 2006 From: efi at dyakron.com (Mike V) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 00:16:03 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] GM early 90's V-6 MPFI In-Reply-To: References: <00c701c6bbb1$72128660$0600a8c0@yancey.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060810001349.03228250@dyakron.com> Hi Joe, I think they also have a sync notch 15 deg before #1 notch. Also no cam sensor needed with wasted spark setups AFAIK. MV At 10:05 PM 8/9/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Don't the early 90's V-6 engines with multiport fuel injection and DIS >ignition use hall effect sensors and notched disks cast into the middle of >the crank? Are there four notches in the disk, one for each cylinder and >one to designate number one? > >Do they also use a cam sensor? > >Thanks, > >Joe B. From bpatten at centurytel.net Wed Aug 9 23:27:49 2006 From: bpatten at centurytel.net (Brendan Patten) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 23:27:49 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] GM early 90's V-6 MPFI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c6bc35$5a49c370$6400a8c0@p42000> I have a 1990 Cavalier Z24, 3.1l MPFI The crank sensor does read off middle of crank, hall effect I don't know. The crank signal is decoded by the DIS ignition module. The dis module sends tach signal to the ECM to control fueling. The ECM send a EST signal to the DIS module to control timing. Might find this helpful: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM_DIS.htm No cam sensor is used in the MPFI. When the SFI 3100 came along there was a CAM sensor to find #1 for sequential injection. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Joe Boucher Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 10:05 PM To: David Allen; diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] GM early 90's V-6 MPFI Don't the early 90's V-6 engines with multiport fuel injection and DIS ignition use hall effect sensors and notched disks cast into the middle of the crank? Are there four notches in the disk, one for each cylinder and one to designate number one? Do they also use a cam sensor? Thanks, Joe B. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From bpatten at centurytel.net Wed Aug 9 23:32:07 2006 From: bpatten at centurytel.net (Brendan Patten) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 23:32:07 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] testing - Message-ID: <000101c6bc35$f352b450$6400a8c0@p42000> I replied to message and I should have gotten it myself, my options say receive copy of my own post..so just testing. thanks From boucherj at prodigy.net Fri Aug 11 08:31:54 2006 From: boucherj at prodigy.net (Joe Boucher) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:31:54 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So what happened to the motor? Too aggressive on the timing? Go too lean at max boast? Teach us O-Great-One-Who-Pushed-the-Boundaries. But sadly a bit too far. There is a Pic-n-Pull near me which had TWO of the quad over head cam V-6's for $139.95 a piece, with three accessories. I went back last weekend and the entire cars were gone. Still scratching my head about that one. Joe B. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Lee M. Lemoine Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:18 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto Hey Jim, The 3.1 is a pretty versatile motor -- depending upon what application your removing it from (in your case, a W-body) it'll have a 127727 ECM -- very modifiable. I personally have a Mclaren 3.1 turbo which is essentially the same block with a little different casting (oil returns, different oil distribution system) -- and am running a haltech E6GM re-wired to work with this engine... If i had known that three years later there'd be as much "plug and play" stuff out for the 3.1, i'd certainly have waited. I'm sure there are many programs out there, GMECM seems neat, although i haven't used it to do more than obtain the base timing tables for the 3.1turbo maps... (so i can program them into my haltech for base tuning) however, it does support romulation -- running code off of a virtual "prom" so that you can change values in real time... Sounds maybe more like what you may want to get into -- and those can be had for about $200 or so. The stock ECM will be pretty quick to respond -- even to mild motors.. Mine's got (okay, HAD... before i melted my pistons) a pretty wild cam, a ton of headwork, and the stock (for the mclaren) mahle low compression pistons... Let me know if there is anything you may need some help with, i actually picked up my 6th 3.1 yesterday, and plan to rebuild it to replace the mclaren block currently in my vehicle. -- Lee On 8/8/06, Jim Butterfield wrote: > > Hi all, > I mostly work with ODBII type pontiacs, so im unfamilar... a buddy is > wanting to take the eng trans from a 93 GP and use it in a sand rail... what > type of computer does this have and how programable is it??? He will want to > work the engine a little with a cam headers and even maybe some head work, > so the VE for the speed density system will be a bit out of wack im sure.... > any help is appreciated... I will be searching some of the w-body/grand am / > N-body sites as well for info, but was curious what this group has... > > thx > jim > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From llemoine at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 09:44:11 2006 From: llemoine at gmail.com (Lee M. Lemoine) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:44:11 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Joe, Well, me and my friend were out tuning without a wideband... (Not that it would have helped what actually happened)... Anyways, with the haltech your RPM limit is set in a menu, i set mine to 5500 rpm (stock) and only programmed fuel up to the 5500 rpm table. When my friend (who also monitors these threads) Keith was using my laptop, he somehow enabled the 6000 rpm table, which had no fuel mapped to it -- so it raised the ECMs rev limiter automatically to 6000 rpm. What happened was i was making powerband runs from 3200 rpm thru redline, and the ignition cut at redline was working just fine -- until the redline got moved. Then the ECM started leaning out the mixture (eventually to ZERO!) every RPM up after 5500 -- with 14.5 psi boost running through the motor, its no wonder why there are quarter size holes in the piston (I'm just guessing, it still runs, but lopes worse than anything i've ever seen -- and it has 'crankcase backfires' as i call them. One of them strong enough to blow the breather off, as well as push the oil dipstick and launch it halfway across the yard (good 150 feet)... either way, i got the new motor just gotta clean it up and swap some stuff over, then make a new wiring harness because i'm sick of having 400,000 dead end wires. -- Lee On 8/11/06, Joe Boucher wrote: > > So what happened to the motor? Too aggressive on the timing? Go too lean > at max boast? > > Teach us O-Great-One-Who-Pushed-the-Boundaries. But sadly a bit too far. > > There is a Pic-n-Pull near me which had TWO of the quad over head cam > V-6's > for $139.95 a piece, with three accessories. I went back last weekend and > the entire cars were gone. > > Still scratching my head about that one. > > Joe B. > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Lee M. Lemoine > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:18 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto > > > Hey Jim, > > The 3.1 is a pretty versatile motor -- depending upon what application > your > removing it from (in your case, a W-body) it'll have a 127727 ECM -- very > modifiable. I personally have a Mclaren 3.1 turbo which is essentially > the > same block with a little different casting (oil returns, different oil > distribution system) -- and am running a haltech E6GM re-wired to work > with > this engine... If i had known that three years later there'd be as much > "plug and play" stuff out for the 3.1, i'd certainly have waited. > > I'm sure there are many programs out there, GMECM seems neat, although i > haven't used it to do more than obtain the base timing tables for the > 3.1turbo maps... (so i can program them into my haltech for base > tuning) > however, it does support romulation -- running code off of a virtual > "prom" > so that you can change values in real time... Sounds maybe more like > what > you may want to get into -- and those can be had for about $200 or so. > > The stock ECM will be pretty quick to respond -- even to mild motors.. > Mine's got (okay, HAD... before i melted my pistons) a pretty wild cam, a > ton of headwork, and the stock (for the mclaren) mahle low compression > pistons... > > Let me know if there is anything you may need some help with, i actually > picked up my 6th 3.1 yesterday, and plan to rebuild it to replace the > mclaren block currently in my vehicle. > > -- Lee > > On 8/8/06, Jim Butterfield wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > I mostly work with ODBII type pontiacs, so im unfamilar... a buddy is > > wanting to take the eng trans from a 93 GP and use it in a sand rail... > what > > type of computer does this have and how programable is it??? He will > want > to > > work the engine a little with a cam headers and even maybe some head > work, > > so the VE for the speed density system will be a bit out of wack im > sure.... > > any help is appreciated... I will be searching some of the w-body/grand > am > / > > N-body sites as well for info, but was curious what this group has... > > > > thx > > jim > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > > > -- > Sincerely, > Lee M. Lemoine > KB1NQI - Amateur Radio > http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ > '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT > '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Fri Aug 11 12:43:29 2006 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060811174329.85064.qmail@web36714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Joe, If your and avid scrounger as I of Pick-a-Parts.... if you see something worth having, better grab it now, it will be gone soon... jim Joe Boucher wrote: So what happened to the motor? Too aggressive on the timing? Go too lean at max boast? Teach us O-Great-One-Who-Pushed-the-Boundaries. But sadly a bit too far. There is a Pic-n-Pull near me which had TWO of the quad over head cam V-6's for $139.95 a piece, with three accessories. I went back last weekend and the entire cars were gone. Still scratching my head about that one. Joe B. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Lee M. Lemoine Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:18 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto Hey Jim, The 3.1 is a pretty versatile motor -- depending upon what application your removing it from (in your case, a W-body) it'll have a 127727 ECM -- very modifiable. I personally have a Mclaren 3.1 turbo which is essentially the same block with a little different casting (oil returns, different oil distribution system) -- and am running a haltech E6GM re-wired to work with this engine... If i had known that three years later there'd be as much "plug and play" stuff out for the 3.1, i'd certainly have waited. I'm sure there are many programs out there, GMECM seems neat, although i haven't used it to do more than obtain the base timing tables for the 3.1turbo maps... (so i can program them into my haltech for base tuning) however, it does support romulation -- running code off of a virtual "prom" so that you can change values in real time... Sounds maybe more like what you may want to get into -- and those can be had for about $200 or so. The stock ECM will be pretty quick to respond -- even to mild motors.. Mine's got (okay, HAD... before i melted my pistons) a pretty wild cam, a ton of headwork, and the stock (for the mclaren) mahle low compression pistons... Let me know if there is anything you may need some help with, i actually picked up my 6th 3.1 yesterday, and plan to rebuild it to replace the mclaren block currently in my vehicle. -- Lee On 8/8/06, Jim Butterfield wrote: > > Hi all, > I mostly work with ODBII type pontiacs, so im unfamilar... a buddy is > wanting to take the eng trans from a 93 GP and use it in a sand rail... what > type of computer does this have and how programable is it??? He will want to > work the engine a little with a cam headers and even maybe some head work, > so the VE for the speed density system will be a bit out of wack im sure.... > any help is appreciated... I will be searching some of the w-body/grand am / > N-body sites as well for info, but was curious what this group has... > > thx > jim > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Fri Aug 11 12:54:24 2006 From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:54:24 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto In-Reply-To: <20060811174329.85064.qmail@web36714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Rule # 1 in junk collecting " Acquisition is the most import part, Justification can come anytime after" -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 12:43 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto Joe, If your and avid scrounger as I of Pick-a-Parts.... if you see something worth having, better grab it now, it will be gone soon... jim Joe Boucher wrote: So what happened to the motor? Too aggressive on the timing? Go too lean at max boast? Teach us O-Great-One-Who-Pushed-the-Boundaries. But sadly a bit too far. There is a Pic-n-Pull near me which had TWO of the quad over head cam V-6's for $139.95 a piece, with three accessories. I went back last weekend and the entire cars were gone. Still scratching my head about that one. Joe B. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Lee M. Lemoine Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:18 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto Hey Jim, The 3.1 is a pretty versatile motor -- depending upon what application your removing it from (in your case, a W-body) it'll have a 127727 ECM -- very modifiable. I personally have a Mclaren 3.1 turbo which is essentially the same block with a little different casting (oil returns, different oil distribution system) -- and am running a haltech E6GM re-wired to work with this engine... If i had known that three years later there'd be as much "plug and play" stuff out for the 3.1, i'd certainly have waited. I'm sure there are many programs out there, GMECM seems neat, although i haven't used it to do more than obtain the base timing tables for the 3.1turbo maps... (so i can program them into my haltech for base tuning) however, it does support romulation -- running code off of a virtual "prom" so that you can change values in real time... Sounds maybe more like what you may want to get into -- and those can be had for about $200 or so. The stock ECM will be pretty quick to respond -- even to mild motors.. Mine's got (okay, HAD... before i melted my pistons) a pretty wild cam, a ton of headwork, and the stock (for the mclaren) mahle low compression pistons... Let me know if there is anything you may need some help with, i actually picked up my 6th 3.1 yesterday, and plan to rebuild it to replace the mclaren block currently in my vehicle. -- Lee On 8/8/06, Jim Butterfield wrote: > > Hi all, > I mostly work with ODBII type pontiacs, so im unfamilar... a buddy is > wanting to take the eng trans from a 93 GP and use it in a sand rail... what > type of computer does this have and how programable is it??? He will want to > work the engine a little with a cam headers and even maybe some head work, > so the VE for the speed density system will be a bit out of wack im sure.... > any help is appreciated... I will be searching some of the w-body/grand am / > N-body sites as well for info, but was curious what this group has... > > thx > jim > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi ----------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* ***** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ******************************************************************* ***** From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 11 15:54:01 2006 From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060811205401.92255.qmail@web80513.mail.yahoo.com> Good example of why I never lend out tools! Hope this guy is still a friend! ----- Original Message ---- From: Lee M. Lemoine To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 9:44:11 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto Hey Joe, Well, me and my friend were out tuning without a wideband... (Not that it would have helped what actually happened)... Anyways, with the haltech your RPM limit is set in a menu, i set mine to 5500 rpm (stock) and only programmed fuel up to the 5500 rpm table. When my friend (who also monitors these threads) Keith was using my laptop, he somehow enabled the 6000 rpm table, which had no fuel mapped to it -- so it raised the ECMs rev limiter automatically to 6000 rpm. What happened was i was making powerband runs from 3200 rpm thru redline, and the ignition cut at redline was working just fine -- until the redline got moved. Then the ECM started leaning out the mixture (eventually to ZERO!) every RPM up after 5500 -- with 14.5 psi boost running through the motor, its no wonder why there are quarter size holes in the piston (I'm just guessing, it still runs, but lopes worse than anything i've ever seen -- and it has 'crankcase backfires' as i call them. One of them strong enough to blow the breather off, as well as push the oil dipstick and launch it halfway across the yard (good 150 feet)... either way, i got the new motor just gotta clean it up and swap some stuff over, then make a new wiring harness because i'm sick of having 400,000 dead end wires. -- Lee On 8/11/06, Joe Boucher wrote: > > So what happened to the motor? Too aggressive on the timing? Go too lean > at max boast? > > Teach us O-Great-One-Who-Pushed-the-Boundaries. But sadly a bit too far. > > There is a Pic-n-Pull near me which had TWO of the quad over head cam > V-6's > for $139.95 a piece, with three accessories. I went back last weekend and > the entire cars were gone. > > Still scratching my head about that one. > > Joe B. > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Lee M. Lemoine > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:18 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto > > > Hey Jim, > > The 3.1 is a pretty versatile motor -- depending upon what application > your > removing it from (in your case, a W-body) it'll have a 127727 ECM -- very > modifiable. I personally have a Mclaren 3.1 turbo which is essentially > the > same block with a little different casting (oil returns, different oil > distribution system) -- and am running a haltech E6GM re-wired to work > with > this engine... If i had known that three years later there'd be as much > "plug and play" stuff out for the 3.1, i'd certainly have waited. > > I'm sure there are many programs out there, GMECM seems neat, although i > haven't used it to do more than obtain the base timing tables for the > 3.1turbo maps... (so i can program them into my haltech for base > tuning) > however, it does support romulation -- running code off of a virtual > "prom" > so that you can change values in real time... Sounds maybe more like > what > you may want to get into -- and those can be had for about $200 or so. > > The stock ECM will be pretty quick to respond -- even to mild motors.. > Mine's got (okay, HAD... before i melted my pistons) a pretty wild cam, a > ton of headwork, and the stock (for the mclaren) mahle low compression > pistons... > > Let me know if there is anything you may need some help with, i actually > picked up my 6th 3.1 yesterday, and plan to rebuild it to replace the > mclaren block currently in my vehicle. > > -- Lee > > On 8/8/06, Jim Butterfield wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > I mostly work with ODBII type pontiacs, so im unfamilar... a buddy is > > wanting to take the eng trans from a 93 GP and use it in a sand rail... > what > > type of computer does this have and how programable is it??? He will > want > to > > work the engine a little with a cam headers and even maybe some head > work, > > so the VE for the speed density system will be a bit out of wack im > sure.... > > any help is appreciated... I will be searching some of the w-body/grand > am > / > > N-body sites as well for info, but was curious what this group has... > > > > thx > > jim > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > > > -- > Sincerely, > Lee M. Lemoine > KB1NQI - Amateur Radio > http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ > '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT > '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From boucherj at prodigy.net Fri Aug 11 21:57:19 2006 From: boucherj at prodigy.net (Joe Boucher) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:57:19 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good story. Lesson for all. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Lee M. Lemoine Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 9:44 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto Hey Joe, Well, me and my friend were out tuning without a wideband... (Not that it would have helped what actually happened)... Anyways, with the haltech your RPM limit is set in a menu, i set mine to 5500 rpm (stock) and only programmed fuel up to the 5500 rpm table. When my friend (who also monitors these threads) Keith was using my laptop, he somehow enabled the 6000 rpm table, which had no fuel mapped to it -- so it raised the ECMs rev limiter automatically to 6000 rpm. What happened was i was making powerband runs from 3200 rpm thru redline, and the ignition cut at redline was working just fine -- until the redline got moved. Then the ECM started leaning out the mixture (eventually to ZERO!) every RPM up after 5500 -- with 14.5 psi boost running through the motor, its no wonder why there are quarter size holes in the piston (I'm just guessing, it still runs, but lopes worse than anything i've ever seen -- and it has 'crankcase backfires' as i call them. One of them strong enough to blow the breather off, as well as push the oil dipstick and launch it halfway across the yard (good 150 feet)... either way, i got the new motor just gotta clean it up and swap some stuff over, then make a new wiring harness because i'm sick of having 400,000 dead end wires. -- Lee On 8/11/06, Joe Boucher wrote: > > So what happened to the motor? Too aggressive on the timing? Go too lean > at max boast? > > Teach us O-Great-One-Who-Pushed-the-Boundaries. But sadly a bit too far. > > There is a Pic-n-Pull near me which had TWO of the quad over head cam > V-6's > for $139.95 a piece, with three accessories. I went back last weekend and > the entire cars were gone. > > Still scratching my head about that one. > > Joe B. > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Lee M. Lemoine > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:18 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto > > > Hey Jim, > > The 3.1 is a pretty versatile motor -- depending upon what application > your > removing it from (in your case, a W-body) it'll have a 127727 ECM -- very > modifiable. I personally have a Mclaren 3.1 turbo which is essentially > the > same block with a little different casting (oil returns, different oil > distribution system) -- and am running a haltech E6GM re-wired to work > with > this engine... If i had known that three years later there'd be as much > "plug and play" stuff out for the 3.1, i'd certainly have waited. > > I'm sure there are many programs out there, GMECM seems neat, although i > haven't used it to do more than obtain the base timing tables for the > 3.1turbo maps... (so i can program them into my haltech for base > tuning) > however, it does support romulation -- running code off of a virtual > "prom" > so that you can change values in real time... Sounds maybe more like > what > you may want to get into -- and those can be had for about $200 or so. > > The stock ECM will be pretty quick to respond -- even to mild motors.. > Mine's got (okay, HAD... before i melted my pistons) a pretty wild cam, a > ton of headwork, and the stock (for the mclaren) mahle low compression > pistons... > > Let me know if there is anything you may need some help with, i actually > picked up my 6th 3.1 yesterday, and plan to rebuild it to replace the > mclaren block currently in my vehicle. > > -- Lee > > On 8/8/06, Jim Butterfield wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > I mostly work with ODBII type pontiacs, so im unfamilar... a buddy is > > wanting to take the eng trans from a 93 GP and use it in a sand rail... > what > > type of computer does this have and how programable is it??? He will > want > to > > work the engine a little with a cam headers and even maybe some head > work, > > so the VE for the speed density system will be a bit out of wack im > sure.... > > any help is appreciated... I will be searching some of the w-body/grand > am > / > > N-body sites as well for info, but was curious what this group has... > > > > thx > > jim > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > > > -- > Sincerely, > Lee M. Lemoine > KB1NQI - Amateur Radio > http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ > '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT > '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From boucherj at prodigy.net Fri Aug 11 21:59:24 2006 From: boucherj at prodigy.net (Joe Boucher) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:59:24 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto In-Reply-To: <20060811174329.85064.qmail@web36714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This one is brand new and not catching on for some reason. I didn't think anyone would want them. Allow the MAF's (I think they had MAF's) were gone from both. Didn't think they would go away. I did contemplate the possibility of eBay. But not quick enough. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 12:43 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto Joe, If your and avid scrounger as I of Pick-a-Parts.... if you see something worth having, better grab it now, it will be gone soon... jim Joe Boucher wrote: So what happened to the motor? Too aggressive on the timing? Go too lean at max boast? Teach us O-Great-One-Who-Pushed-the-Boundaries. But sadly a bit too far. There is a Pic-n-Pull near me which had TWO of the quad over head cam V-6's for $139.95 a piece, with three accessories. I went back last weekend and the entire cars were gone. Still scratching my head about that one. Joe B. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Lee M. Lemoine Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:18 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto Hey Jim, The 3.1 is a pretty versatile motor -- depending upon what application your removing it from (in your case, a W-body) it'll have a 127727 ECM -- very modifiable. I personally have a Mclaren 3.1 turbo which is essentially the same block with a little different casting (oil returns, different oil distribution system) -- and am running a haltech E6GM re-wired to work with this engine... If i had known that three years later there'd be as much "plug and play" stuff out for the 3.1, i'd certainly have waited. I'm sure there are many programs out there, GMECM seems neat, although i haven't used it to do more than obtain the base timing tables for the 3.1turbo maps... (so i can program them into my haltech for base tuning) however, it does support romulation -- running code off of a virtual "prom" so that you can change values in real time... Sounds maybe more like what you may want to get into -- and those can be had for about $200 or so. The stock ECM will be pretty quick to respond -- even to mild motors.. Mine's got (okay, HAD... before i melted my pistons) a pretty wild cam, a ton of headwork, and the stock (for the mclaren) mahle low compression pistons... Let me know if there is anything you may need some help with, i actually picked up my 6th 3.1 yesterday, and plan to rebuild it to replace the mclaren block currently in my vehicle. -- Lee On 8/8/06, Jim Butterfield wrote: > > Hi all, > I mostly work with ODBII type pontiacs, so im unfamilar... a buddy is > wanting to take the eng trans from a 93 GP and use it in a sand rail... what > type of computer does this have and how programable is it??? He will want to > work the engine a little with a cam headers and even maybe some head work, > so the VE for the speed density system will be a bit out of wack im sure.... > any help is appreciated... I will be searching some of the w-body/grand am / > N-body sites as well for info, but was curious what this group has... > > thx > jim > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From llemoine at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 09:42:49 2006 From: llemoine at gmail.com (Lee M. Lemoine) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:42:49 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto In-Reply-To: References: <20060811174329.85064.qmail@web36714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh yeah, we're still friends -- i'm sure he's laughing as he reads this right now... He was helping me tune the maps, and just hit the wrong key. He put some data in the 6k rpm map, then zero'd it out not knowing it upped the redline. i didn't know either -- so i guess not knowing is just as dangerous as stupidity. -- Lee On 8/11/06, Joe Boucher wrote: > > This one is brand new and not catching on for some reason. I didn't think > anyone would want them. Allow the MAF's (I think they had MAF's) were > gone > from both. Didn't think they would go away. > > I did contemplate the possibility of eBay. > > But not quick enough. > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Jim Butterfield > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 12:43 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto > > > Joe, If your and avid scrounger as I of Pick-a-Parts.... if you see > something worth having, better grab it now, it will be gone soon... > > jim > > Joe Boucher wrote: > So what happened to the motor? Too aggressive on the timing? Go too lean > at max boast? > > Teach us O-Great-One-Who-Pushed-the-Boundaries. But sadly a bit too far. > > There is a Pic-n-Pull near me which had TWO of the quad over head cam > V-6's > for $139.95 a piece, with three accessories. I went back last weekend and > the entire cars were gone. > > Still scratching my head about that one. > > Joe B. > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of Lee M. Lemoine > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:18 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 93 pontiac grand prix... I think the 3.1L auto > > > Hey Jim, > > The 3.1 is a pretty versatile motor -- depending upon what application > your > removing it from (in your case, a W-body) it'll have a 127727 ECM -- very > modifiable. I personally have a Mclaren 3.1 turbo which is essentially the > same block with a little different casting (oil returns, different oil > distribution system) -- and am running a haltech E6GM re-wired to work > with > this engine... If i had known that three years later there'd be as much > "plug and play" stuff out for the 3.1, i'd certainly have waited. > > I'm sure there are many programs out there, GMECM seems neat, although i > haven't used it to do more than obtain the base timing tables for the > 3.1turbo maps... (so i can program them into my haltech for base > tuning) > however, it does support romulation -- running code off of a virtual > "prom" > so that you can change values in real time... Sounds maybe more like what > you may want to get into -- and those can be had for about $200 or so. > > The stock ECM will be pretty quick to respond -- even to mild motors.. > Mine's got (okay, HAD... before i melted my pistons) a pretty wild cam, a > ton of headwork, and the stock (for the mclaren) mahle low compression > pistons... > > Let me know if there is anything you may need some help with, i actually > picked up my 6th 3.1 yesterday, and plan to rebuild it to replace the > mclaren block currently in my vehicle. > > -- Lee > > On 8/8/06, Jim Butterfield wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > I mostly work with ODBII type pontiacs, so im unfamilar... a buddy is > > wanting to take the eng trans from a 93 GP and use it in a sand rail... > what > > type of computer does this have and how programable is it??? He will > want > to > > work the engine a little with a cam headers and even maybe some head > work, > > so the VE for the speed density system will be a bit out of wack im > sure.... > > any help is appreciated... I will be searching some of the w-body/grand > am > / > > N-body sites as well for info, but was curious what this group has... > > > > thx > > jim > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > > > -- > Sincerely, > Lee M. Lemoine > KB1NQI - Amateur Radio > http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ > '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT > '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) From boucherj at prodigy.net Sun Aug 13 07:27:37 2006 From: boucherj at prodigy.net (Joe Boucher) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:27:37 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Why I asked about the GM V-6 MPFI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a '89 325i. I also came across a turbo just right for a 2.5 liter engine. Turboing the 325i is a big temptation plus playing with the fuel and spark maps. BUT, as best I can tell, no one has hacked the Motronic 1.1 FI computers to any kind of detail like the GM ECU's. Which surprises me, as the size of the memory chip used in the Motronic is really small. 2k or 4k? And that is the size of the maps and programming. But I could be wrong. So, the voices in my head keep telling me to piggy back a GM system onto the 2.5. The list of road blocks to do this are short. Engine timing. The MPFI system would require some kind of crank trigger. The spacing of the disk slots on the crank could be copied on to a computer controlled, laser cut disk and the disk sandwiched between crank pulley and the harmonic balancer. The BMW crank position sensing system (60 minus two knobs) is on the harmonic balancer and the bracket could be useable for mounting the GM sensor or maybe the BMW sensor would work. Or, use a TBI system. There is a lot of room in the BMW distributor cap. I haven't looked at the details, but mounting a GM HEI reluctor ring (the pointy thingies) might be easy. But turboing would be easier with 749 ECM code. Speed input to the ECM. The hardest part of converting my carbed '81 Suburban to an '89 TBI system was the speed sensor situation. The 700R4 on the back of the TBI engine I bought had the electronic sensor and not the cable drive. After installing everything, successfully running the car down the road, THEN figuring out the output of the tranny speed sensor needed conversion to a step wave, I should have pulled the tranny and had the output shaft converted to a cable system and bought the in-line speedometer cable sensor. The BMW uses a sensor on the differential which detects the pinion ring teeth. I doubt the number of teeth will equal 2000 or 4000 pulses a mile. Some kind of converter circuit is possible, but I can't do that. Knock sensing. BMW didn't start using knock sensors till 1991. Mounting a GM knock sensor on the bimmer block might be a challenge. I have a Bosch knock sensor off a Volvo, but am not sure it operates the same as a GM sensor. I don't HAVE to have a knock sensor, but it sure would be nice. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Joe B. From b.shaw at comcast.net Sun Aug 13 08:35:54 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:35:54 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Why I asked about the GM V-6 MPFI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DF2ABA.3070303@comcast.net> Jim Conforti and others have hacked the DMEs in enough detail to change anything you want. They just haven't released the information into the public domain as has happened here in the GM world. You can do MPFI with a '749 without a crank trigger. The magnetic speed sensor in my 928 worked fine as the '749's VSS input and there is a road speed constant in the calibration that will allow you set the number of pulses per mile. I think I used 6200 or something like that. The reluctor in the 928's distributor worked fine to trigger the GM ignition module also so you might get lucky there. All I had to do to the distributor was remove it's guts, weld down the centrifugal advance, and reassemble the the same stuff back into it. The Porsche distributor cable connector even fit into the GM ignition module with a little help from my Dremel. Knock sensing is an issue. The sensors are matched to the application so you might have to play with different mounting locations and techniques to dampen or accentuate the noise to the correct levels. It is likely the BMW sensors would work, I think I would start with them. I do not have a working knock sensor right now, the overhead cams in the Porsche V8 are very noisy and I haven't played with it enough to make it work yet. More details and pics of my 928 setup are in the '749 twiki on the GMECM page. http://www.diy-efi.org/twiki/bin/view.pl/Gmecm/1227749 If you come up with any additional '749 info while working on this, or if you want to document your conversion, the twiki is a great place to put it. Just click the 'edit' button at the bottom of the page and type away. Rip that DME outta there! :-) Bill 928s Vortech/749 Joe Boucher wrote: > I have a '89 325i. I also came across a turbo just right for a 2.5 liter > engine. Turboing the 325i is a big temptation plus playing with the fuel > and spark maps. > > BUT, as best I can tell, no one has hacked the Motronic 1.1 FI computers to > any kind of detail like the GM ECU's. Which surprises me, as the size of > the memory chip used in the Motronic is really small. 2k or 4k? And that > is the size of the maps and programming. But I could be wrong. > > So, the voices in my head keep telling me to piggy back a GM system onto the > 2.5. The list of road blocks to do this are short. > > > Engine timing. > > The MPFI system would require some kind of crank trigger. The spacing of > the disk slots on the crank could be copied on to a computer controlled, > laser cut disk and the disk sandwiched between crank pulley and the harmonic > balancer. The BMW crank position sensing system (60 minus two knobs) is on > the harmonic balancer and the bracket could be useable for mounting the GM > sensor or maybe the BMW sensor would work. > > Or, use a TBI system. There is a lot of room in the BMW distributor cap. I > haven't looked at the details, but mounting a GM HEI reluctor ring (the > pointy thingies) might be easy. But turboing would be easier with 749 ECM > code. > > > Speed input to the ECM. > > The hardest part of converting my carbed '81 Suburban to an '89 TBI system > was the speed sensor situation. The 700R4 on the back of the TBI engine I > bought had the electronic sensor and not the cable drive. After installing > everything, successfully running the car down the road, THEN figuring out > the output of the tranny speed sensor needed conversion to a step wave, I > should have pulled the tranny and had the output shaft converted to a cable > system and bought the in-line speedometer cable sensor. > > The BMW uses a sensor on the differential which detects the pinion ring > teeth. I doubt the number of teeth will equal 2000 or 4000 pulses a mile. > Some kind of converter circuit is possible, but I can't do that. > > > Knock sensing. > > BMW didn't start using knock sensors till 1991. Mounting a GM knock sensor > on the bimmer block might be a challenge. I have a Bosch knock sensor off a > Volvo, but am not sure it operates the same as a GM sensor. I don't HAVE to > have a knock sensor, but it sure would be nice. > > > Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > > Joe B. > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From tsokorai at xperts.cl Mon Aug 14 09:10:08 2006 From: tsokorai at xperts.cl (Tomas J. Sokorai Sch.) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:10:08 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Why I asked about the GM V-6 MPFI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608141010.09209.tsokorai@xperts.cl> On Sunday 13 August 2006 08:27, Joe Boucher wrote: > Engine timing. > > The MPFI system would require some kind of crank trigger. The spacing of > the disk slots on the crank could be copied on to a computer controlled, > laser cut disk and the disk sandwiched between crank pulley and the > harmonic balancer. The BMW crank position sensing system (60 minus two > knobs) is on the harmonic balancer and the bracket could be useable for > mounting the GM sensor or maybe the BMW sensor would work. Not necessarily, you can use distr. triggering too. On the older (batch fired injectors) GM MPFI the only difference between the DIS and HEI signals to/from the ECM are the 60 degree offset and that in the DIS, the coil dwell is handled on the ignition module. All this is possible to fix only fiddling with the software side of the setup. I'm in the middle of the conversion of a '82 323i (M20 inline 6 engine too, but originally with K-jetronic mech. FI) to GM port fuel injection. I used the following parts: - 1227727 ECM from a 3.1 V6 Turbo Grand Prix (I didn't want to get the cable salad into the car's interior, so I choose it for its weatherproofness). - 2.8/3.1 DIS ignition (the one with the 6+1 pattern and only one sensor) - $8D code from a V8 'vette, with HEI dist. triggering. (modified for DIS and 6 cyl. of course ;) - Front vibration damper drilled to have the 6+1 GM DIS pattern - Using the original TDC sensor ("OT-Geber" according to BMW German docs) on the damper as inductive sensor for the DIS ign, but "supercharged" with a stack of harddrive magnets to give a stronger signal. I already did sucessfully run the engine with the DIS and ECM controlled ignition (mech. FI controlling fuel), and I'm now adapting the EFI manifold from your exact engine model to match my ports and I hope soon I'll be running full GM EFI and DIS ignition. ... After that, "the voices" say something about forced induction too ;) > > The BMW uses a sensor on the differential which detects the pinion ring > teeth. I doubt the number of teeth will equal 2000 or 4000 pulses a mile. > Some kind of converter circuit is possible, but I can't do that. Lucky... I don't have that sensor, so I'm still trying to figure out where to get the VSS signal from. On the other hand, my truck that I converted to EFI ('75 302 to GM TBI) runs great without VSS input. > > > Knock sensing. > > BMW didn't start using knock sensors till 1991. Mounting a GM knock sensor > on the bimmer block might be a challenge. I have a Bosch knock sensor off > a Volvo, but am not sure it operates the same as a GM sensor. I don't HAVE > to have a knock sensor, but it sure would be nice. Beware that these engines don't have hydraulic tappets/lifters, so the valvetrain is a bit noisy unless the valve lash is kept *very* well regulated all the time. I don't plan running knock sensors (same with my truck). -- Tomas J. Sokorai Sch. From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 15 07:55:06 2006 From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] info request Message-ID: <20060815125506.98617.qmail@web80510.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E w/ 2.0Litre FuelInj, like what system is used for control? I am looking at one but currently don't know much about it other than I know the owner very well and own 3 recent 90's 850's currently. Any info appreciated, links to tech, etc. From dmitri_pronin at mail.ru Tue Aug 15 09:01:22 2006 From: dmitri_pronin at mail.ru (Dmitri Pronin) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:01:22 +0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] info request References: <20060815125506.98617.qmail@web80510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008501c6c073$525c4ab0$2d7c77d4@none> Wow!!! That one is one nice car! However, its injection system is not in fact an EFI. Dmitri. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McLeod" To: "diyefi" Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] info request > Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E w/ 2.0Litre FuelInj, > like what system is used for control? > > I am looking at one but currently don't know much about it other than I > know the owner very well and own 3 recent 90's 850's currently. > > Any info appreciated, links to tech, etc. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 15 10:00:23 2006 From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] info request In-Reply-To: <008501c6c073$525c4ab0$2d7c77d4@none> Message-ID: <20060815150023.60751.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com> So, if not, I still need to know some info, as I'd like to convert to EFI if it is not the greatest system, if it's a good mechanical then I won't bother, but I don't know what it is at all and the car is some 1000 miles from me, I can't just go pop the bonnet! ----- Original Message ---- From: Dmitri Pronin To: Rick McLeod ; diy_efi at diy-efi.org Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:01:22 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request Wow!!! That one is one nice car! However, its injection system is not in fact an EFI. Dmitri. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McLeod" To: "diyefi" Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] info request > Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E w/ 2.0Litre FuelInj, > like what system is used for control? > > I am looking at one but currently don't know much about it other than I > know the owner very well and own 3 recent 90's 850's currently. > > Any info appreciated, links to tech, etc. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From five10man at commspeed.net Tue Aug 15 10:26:16 2006 From: five10man at commspeed.net (Tom Visel) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:26:16 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] info request In-Reply-To: <20060815125506.98617.qmail@web80510.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060815125506.98617.qmail@web80510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44E1E798.50406@commspeed.net> Grassroots Motorsports did a writeup (I think last year) on a project that used parts from an 1800E to convert a different Volvo to fuel injection. 1800s are indeed fuel injection, and it is D-Jetronic, early Bosch. Analog EFI with a diaphragm-style MAP sensor. Hope the fuel injection never breaks, or convert it to something tunable. See http://tinyurl.com/zclwg for history on the 1800 model including year-to-year differences. TomV Rick McLeod wrote: >Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E w/ 2.0Litre FuelInj, like what system is used for control? > >I am looking at one but currently don't know much about it other than I know the owner very well and own 3 recent 90's 850's currently. > >Any info appreciated, links to tech, etc. >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 15 10:29:21 2006 From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] info request In-Reply-To: <20060815150023.60751.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060815152921.50555.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> Also, the references I find show the 1800E to be EFI as of approx 1969 or so, maybe 1970, so suspect this one (1971) to be EFI ----- Original Message ---- From: Rick McLeod To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:00:23 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request So, if not, I still need to know some info, as I'd like to convert to EFI if it is not the greatest system, if it's a good mechanical then I won't bother, but I don't know what it is at all and the car is some 1000 miles from me, I can't just go pop the bonnet! ----- Original Message ---- From: Dmitri Pronin To: Rick McLeod ; diy_efi at diy-efi.org Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:01:22 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request Wow!!! That one is one nice car! However, its injection system is not in fact an EFI. Dmitri. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McLeod" To: "diyefi" Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] info request > Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E w/ 2.0Litre FuelInj, > like what system is used for control? > > I am looking at one but currently don't know much about it other than I > know the owner very well and own 3 recent 90's 850's currently. > > Any info appreciated, links to tech, etc. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From dmitri_pronin at mail.ru Tue Aug 15 15:16:57 2006 From: dmitri_pronin at mail.ru (Dmitri Pronin) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 00:16:57 +0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] info request References: <20060815152921.50555.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001c01c6c0a7$cf9ca9a0$2d7c77d4@none> Don't they have Bosch "mechincal" FI? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McLeod" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request > Also, the references I find show the 1800E to be EFI as of approx 1969 or > so, maybe 1970, so suspect this one (1971) to be EFI > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Rick McLeod > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:00:23 AM > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request > > > So, if not, I still need to know some info, as I'd like to convert to EFI > if it is not the greatest system, if it's a good mechanical then I won't > bother, but I don't know what it is at all and the car is some 1000 miles > from me, I can't just go pop the bonnet! > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dmitri Pronin > To: Rick McLeod ; diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:01:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request > > > Wow!!! > > That one is one nice car! However, its injection system is not in fact an > EFI. > > Dmitri. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick McLeod" > To: "diyefi" > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:55 PM > Subject: [Diy_efi] info request > > >> Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E w/ 2.0Litre FuelInj, >> like what system is used for control? >> >> I am looking at one but currently don't know much about it other than I >> know the owner very well and own 3 recent 90's 850's currently. >> >> Any info appreciated, links to tech, etc. >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Tue Aug 15 16:04:36 2006 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] info request In-Reply-To: <20060815125506.98617.qmail@web80510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060815210436.77710.qmail@web32213.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Rick McLeod wrote: > Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E > w/ 2.0Litre FuelInj, like what system is used for > control? I believe that would be Bosch K-Jet, AKA "CIS". All mechanical. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Tue Aug 15 16:18:13 2006 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] info request In-Reply-To: <44E1E798.50406@commspeed.net> Message-ID: <20060815211813.61936.qmail@web32204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Tom Visel wrote: > 1800s are indeed fuel injection, and it is > D-Jetronic, early Bosch. Thanks. I stand corrected there. You will probably want to save all the stock sensors, particularly the pressure sensors, and especially if they still work well. I get the feeling they are unobtanium, and someone will want them for concours-grade restoration of some D-Jet car, now or in the future. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From red93formula at hotmail.com Tue Aug 15 19:47:50 2006 From: red93formula at hotmail.com (93 Formula) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:47:50 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( Message-ID: Anyone out there care to offer any other ideas of where to look for my problematic car? Its been years and I haven't been able to drive it. I have both diacom runs and datamaster runs. If anyone wants to take a look, let me know and I'd be glad to email them. I have run VE-MAster 4 times on datamaster data with not enough change to make it go away yet. I see some things I don't like in the data but don't what to make of all of it. Also - could the egr effect anything? I don't have one hooked up anymore. Should I turn something off or change the on/off values in the ecm? (I've put this back to stock now) Here are the symptoms - 1. Doesn't want to keep a "running" idle -aka wants to die when you put in gear or turn on the A/C... 2. When driving it - open or closed loop - from a stop to anywhere in the part throttle range, there is always like a jerk of the car like it wants to die (I thought it was going lean) and then it surges forward 3. the rpm's seem to have the jitters looking at the data, the LTs seem wrong - not near 128 usually. 4. the only time it seems to run ok is when I mash it but even then something doesnt sound right. I also noticed that one LT was stuck at 130 instead of 128 - seemed weird if using WOT I also noticed LT counts hanging around 108-114 range for a 9 second period when I let my foot off the gas after a 10% TPS yikes. 5. popping in the exhaust - especially when letting of the throttle but even at part throttle driving this happens. 6. still starts hard - long crank and then wants to die for the first 10 seconds unless I keep in the gas - reminds me more of my 73 Charger before I upgraded the ignition. What I've done... (besides aging 30 years in 3) ------------------------- changed programming like no tomorrow, went back to stock programming and started over, tried VE master 4 times - Is this something you should have to run a lot before it gets right? chk'd or changed coil, coil wires, spark plugs - although that was a year a go and they may be "fouled from too rich tests" Would these really need changing or would just a good hot romp burn em off? (which I've doe a few times) 1. I've helped the idle problem by adjusting the throttle stop out some to raise the idle speed. I tried raising #s in the ecm but it didn't help. 2. usually the only way to keep it moving when it does this is to feather the throttle until it finally gets going. 3-4. it does better to touch it at say 20% rather than a 5-10% throttle. I noticed in the data that the tps changes even when I don't have my foot on the throttle ??? I know there is some exhaust leak in the driverside Collector pipe since it never was a perfect fit I don't know if that is enough to cause all of these problems though. I did have problems with it starting and had to replace the battery - thought the pcm was dead, but apparently it was just my proms so I went back to my DOS program to make sure and it works but it I run 30# f*rd injectors in it now and they are programmed according to the formula someone posted here a while back - I think its is like 31.xx as the constant. Jeff http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw & 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner... From philhunt at comcast.net Tue Aug 15 19:52:21 2006 From: philhunt at comcast.net (Phil) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:52:21 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] info request References: <20060815125506.98617.qmail@web80510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005a01c6c0ce$3be13a10$6401a8c0@juliephil> 71 1800E is indeed D Jetronic, which uses a crazy variable reluctance MAP sensor (like all d jet). The 71 motor was 10.5/1, 130hp @6000rpm. This basic setup was used in 70/71 1800E and 71 142E. Later units were de-tuned having lower compression, different head castings, and 5* less duration intake/exh. 71 and earlier heads will be ruined running on unleaded gas-exhaust valve seat reccession is dramatic and swift! The early (70/71E) heads, MAP sensors, and ECUs are however, valuable to that clique running 142Es in SCCA improved touring as they are key to being competetive with any backdated 142. Bob Griffith at BHP Developments would be the guy to call (610 838 0361, Hellertown Pa.). He's the MAN when it comes to Vintage Volvo development (his current daily driver: 66 122S wagon w/his aluminum flywheel/bell hsg and 5spd Mekur trans). His area of expertise is airflow development/cylinder heads. He'd love to make your car rip on todays gas and get your old parts! Phil Hunt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McLeod" To: "diyefi" Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:55 AM Subject: [Diy_efi] info request > Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E w/ 2.0Litre FuelInj, > like what system is used for control? > > I am looking at one but currently don't know much about it other than I > know the owner very well and own 3 recent 90's 850's currently. > > Any info appreciated, links to tech, etc. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From philhunt at comcast.net Tue Aug 15 19:53:14 2006 From: philhunt at comcast.net (Phil) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:53:14 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] info request Message-ID: <006301c6c0ce$5adb1120$6401a8c0@juliephil> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil" To: "Rick McLeod" ; Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request > 71 1800E is indeed D Jetronic, which uses a crazy variable reluctance MAP > sensor (like all d jet). > The 71 motor was 10.5/1, 130hp @6000rpm. This basic setup was used in > 70/71 1800E and 71 142E. Later units were de-tuned having lower > compression, different head castings, and 5* less duration intake/exh. 71 > and earlier heads will be ruined running on unleaded gas-exhaust valve > seat reccession is dramatic and swift! The early (70/71E) heads, MAP > sensors, and ECUs are however, valuable to that clique running 142Es in > SCCA improved touring as they are key to being competetive with any > backdated 142. Bob Griffith at BHP Developments would be the guy to call > (610 838 0361, Hellertown Pa.). > He's the MAN when it comes to Vintage > Volvo development (his current daily driver: 66 122S wagon w/his aluminum > flywheel/bell hsg and 5spd Mekur trans). His area of expertise is airflow > development/cylinder heads. He'd love to make your car rip on todays gas > and get your old parts! Phil Hunt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick McLeod" > To: "diyefi" > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:55 AM > Subject: [Diy_efi] info request > > >> Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E w/ 2.0Litre FuelInj, >> like what system is used for control? >> >> I am looking at one but currently don't know much about it other than I >> know the owner very well and own 3 recent 90's 850's currently. >> >> Any info appreciated, links to tech, etc. >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From llemoine at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 01:26:44 2006 From: llemoine at gmail.com (Lee M. Lemoine) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:26:44 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It sounds like you've been down a long and windy road, and i'm half awake and will comment more but the first things that come to mind are of the EGR sort -- have you got the hole in the intake plenum blocked off? On my '93 Z24 i had to disable EGR out in the middle of nowhere, i simply took the EGR valve off, RTV'd a quarter over the hole, and bolted it on finger tight + 1/8 turn. the whole intake plenum holds pressure (i pressure test my turbo's intake setup from the plenum back through the intercooler, straight into the turbo inlet!) so i know that that fix was air-tight. That'd be a pretty big vaccum leak and would cause your vaccum levels to read funky, therefore causing you to have to tune the car a lot to make things run "normal". My other notataion was in the fluctuating TPS value. with the car 'idling' it should be steady, if its not check the bolts holding the TPS, and check the wiring to make sure hte pins aren't corroded. If its still moving, try adjusting the TPS a little by loosening the screws and 'wiggling' the sensor, and retightening -- sometimes it'll get stuck at a value that keeps switching between percentages, and may dump some extra fuel in as part of the throttle pump -- causing your lumpy idle. I'd also suspect the popping to be caused by that too -- extra fuel burning off in the exhaust and i'm sure thats driving your fuel trims up the wall too. Make sure the wirings good, and if it is, replace the TPS would be my first thought -- i went nuts with mine programming the haltech on the convertible -- best $23 i ever spent. Good luck, and if i read this again when i'm awake, i'll give ya some more to go on! -- Lee On 8/15/06, 93 Formula wrote: > > Anyone out there care to offer any other ideas of where to look for my > problematic car? > Its been years and I haven't been able to drive it. > I have both diacom runs and datamaster runs. > If anyone wants to take a look, let me know and I'd be glad to email them. > I have run VE-MAster 4 times on datamaster data with not enough change to > make it go away yet. > I see some things I don't like in the data but don't what to make of all > of > it. > Also - could the egr effect anything? I don't have one hooked up anymore. > Should I turn something off or change the on/off values in the ecm? (I've > put this back to stock now) > > Here are the symptoms - > 1. Doesn't want to keep a "running" idle -aka wants to die when you put in > gear or turn on the A/C... > > 2. When driving it - open or closed loop - from a stop to anywhere in the > part throttle range, there is always like a jerk of the car like it wants > to > die (I thought it was going lean) and then it surges forward > > 3. the rpm's seem to have the jitters looking at the data, the LTs seem > wrong - not near 128 usually. > > 4. the only time it seems to run ok is when I mash it but even then > something doesnt sound right. > I also noticed that one LT was stuck at 130 instead of 128 - seemed > weird > if using WOT > I also noticed LT counts hanging around 108-114 range for a 9 second > period > when I let my foot off the gas after a 10% TPS yikes. > > 5. popping in the exhaust - especially when letting of the throttle but > even > at part throttle driving this happens. > > 6. still starts hard - long crank and then wants to die for the first 10 > seconds unless I keep in the gas - reminds me more of my 73 Charger before > I > upgraded the ignition. > > What I've done... (besides aging 30 years in 3) > ------------------------- > changed programming like no tomorrow, went back to stock programming and > started over, tried VE master 4 times - Is this something you should have > to > run a lot before it gets right? > chk'd or changed coil, coil wires, spark plugs - although that was a year > a > go and they may be "fouled from too rich tests" Would these really need > changing or would just a good hot romp burn em off? (which I've doe a few > times) > > 1. I've helped the idle problem by adjusting the throttle stop out some to > raise the idle speed. > I tried raising #s in the ecm but it didn't help. > > 2. usually the only way to keep it moving when it does this is to feather > the throttle until it finally gets going. > > 3-4. it does better to touch it at say 20% rather than a 5-10% throttle. > I noticed in the data that the tps changes even when I don't have my foot > on > the throttle ??? > > I know there is some exhaust leak in the driverside Collector pipe since > it > never was a perfect fit > I don't know if that is enough to cause all of these problems though. > I did have problems with it starting and had to replace the battery - > thought the pcm was dead, but apparently it was just my proms so I went > back > to my DOS program to make sure and it works but it > I run 30# f*rd injectors in it now and they are programmed according to > the > formula someone posted here a while back - I think its is like 31.xx as > the > constant. > > Jeff http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula > Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, > Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw > & > 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner... > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) From magnusgus at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 10:00:50 2006 From: magnusgus at gmail.com (Magnus Gustavsson) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:00:50 +0200 Subject: [Diy_efi] Chiptuning of Mercedes? VDO ECU Message-ID: Hello to all on this fine forum, I finally think I have found some competence! [image: Wink] I have a Mercedes AMG C36 -94, that I want to tune for use with E85 (ethanol). Here in Sweden it has become very popular to run your car on this new, powerful and cheaper +environmentally better fuel. You can read more about this on: www.etanol.nu My car (and some others) are able to adapt up the fuel amount (around +26% extra compared to petrol)(all the way up to 100% E85 in the tank) by reading the signal from the lambda-sond. The problems are only that the optimum ignition kennfeld + coldstart enrichments will not be changed too. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that the best would be if you could reprogram the eprom in the ECU to increase coldstart enrichments + alter the ignintion curve (and on all other cars also rewrite the general fuel amount since they are softwarevise not allowed to adapt fully to E85). I'm pretty sure that once one engine is reprogrammed like this, all others can be modified tha same way, without too much engine knowledge. It could also be nice to be able to switch back to petrol settings if you go on holiday in a not so well developed ethanol, country.. [image: Roll Eyes] I have opened my ECU and found that the eprom (in a socket already!) is a TI TMS27C210A-12JL. This eprom is mounted in a VDO ECU that is used in many Mercedes and even motorcycles (Ducati?) from the beginning of the 90-ties. Unfortunately there seems be very little on the net about Mercedes, VDO and ECU-tuning. Still, there are several places where tuned chips are availble, even for my car. Does anybody have a clew from where these tuners get their info on defintion files etc? And can you please point me in the right direction for how to find out or get usable definiton files for this ECU? I've tried to search in this maillist a little tricky so I might have missed something.. without success. BR/ Magnus From niche at iinet.net.au Wed Aug 16 10:59:30 2006 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:59:30 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] "New Age EFI 2001 Electronic Fuel Injection Service Unit ? Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060816234531.02698570@iinet.net.au>> Hi chaps, Just got back from Esperance, averaged 95Km/Hr at 9.5L/100Kms over a distance there of 750Kms and back via Hyden (Wave Rock) of some 790Kms with an RB30ET (3L Nissan motor with turbo set to max boost of 10psi on ULP). Have tweaked the AFM (made it leaner) and tried out my RB30 ignition driver which gives more coil volts and have been running on iridium plugs (have to check they havent melted like 3 out of a set of splitfires some years ago )... My 3rd proto ignition coil driver is just so much better than the factory unit (if I do say so myself), seems a lot smoother, starts easier when cold etc. I'll post a pic of the veroboard proto which also survived 90Kms of rather bumpy unsealed roads with spray, dust crao etc as well as driving rain and headwinds on the way to Esperance yesterday the 15th Aug 2006. Anyone on this list have a Skyline or VL with the RB30 motor and prepared to try one - ie Arms length test to avoid my placebo effect ;-) ?? (ie When I get some pre-production or pilot underway etc) Anyway, I picked up a new toy, as per subject, and wonder if anyone has used one, seems pretty elaborate with digital display for timing injector testing, flow, period, rpms etc comes with all sorts of fittings and graduated tubes, has been in use for a few years until a week before I got it, dont know if its Australian or from US. Strangely the service manual doesnt have any contact info at all, so I am guessing its made in US and the service manual has been substituted to obfuscate source, so might be a dealer in Australia and curious what is worth ? Also you performance nuts, do you get your injectors matched and flow tested, if so what do you get charged and how detailled is the report ? Regards from Mike Massen Network Power Systems Lab 08 9444 8961 Mb 0438 048961 Perth, Western Australia * VL/VK Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! * Skyline/NIssan/VL Milspec ignition driver in development * Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars * Industrial grade PolyVinyliDeneChloride (PVDC Copolymer) in bulk, the best oxygen and water protective barrier you can find for circuit boards. Web site under construction http://niche.iinet.net.au From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu Wed Aug 16 16:04:09 2006 From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F6rn_Forsman?=) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:04:09 +0200 Subject: [Diy_efi] info request In-Reply-To: <001c01c6c0a7$cf9ca9a0$2d7c77d4@none> References: <20060815152921.50555.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> <001c01c6c0a7$cf9ca9a0$2d7c77d4@none> Message-ID: <44E38849.9020800@gengas.nu> A Volvo P1800E (like all other fuel injected Volvos of that era with B20E, B20F, B30E or B30F engines) has Bosch D-jetronic injection from about 1969 to 1973. From 1974 on, all 4-cylinder models used the mechanical K-jetronic system instead. The 6-cylinder Volvo 164E however still used D-jetronic until 1975, when that model was superseded by the 264, with a completely different engine and K-jetronic. The D-jetronic was the world's first mass produced EFI system. It was initially developed by Bendix, but Bendix saw no future for it and sold the whole concept to Bosch in the mid-60's. Bosch then in a few years developed it to a field useable system, it was first used on the VW 1600E '68, and by 1969 it was implemented by a lot of european car manufacturers. Of course, that early system has some weaknesses. The temperature sensors (for coolant and air temperature) often get open-circuit. Early throttle position switches are not well sealed and must often be cleaned to work well. The pressure sensor (a very vital component) contains a metal membrane that may crack. Also, it is sensitive to dirt coming by the vacuum line. It is a odd design, a transformer where a part of the core is moved according to the intake manifold vacuum. That transformer is connected in the feedback path of a monostable flip-flop in the ECU, which determines the injector opening time. ECUs made before 1972 has big problems with all feedthroughs between the sides of the double-side PCBs, they are implemented as component pins soldered on both sides (no plated-through holes). Due to thermal fatigue, the soldering will soon crack on either side of all such feedthroughs. From 1972 on, those were replaced by "C-jumpers", i.e. a short jumper where one leg is soldered on the primary side and the other on the secondary side. The injector drive transistors (germanium parts, ASZ18 or similar) are said to fail often in hot climates, although I never have seen a such fault here in Sweden. Probably, this is a bigger problem on ECUs for 6- or 8-cylinder engines where the transistors are more heavily loaded and more heat from the injector ballast resistors is generated within the ECU. A non-electrical problem is that the short pieces of fuel hose crimped to each injector is of low quality and soon gets leaky. This has caused many fires. On injectors manufactured before about 1973, the crimp can be filed away, the hose replaced and secured by a normal hose clamp. On newer injectors, a special hose replacement set was once upon a time available from Bosch. Best regards Torbj?rn Forsman Dmitri Pronin wrote: > Don't they have Bosch "mechincal" FI? > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McLeod" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:29 PM > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request > > >> Also, the references I find show the 1800E to be EFI as of approx 1969 >> or so, maybe 1970, so suspect this one (1971) to be EFI >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Rick McLeod >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:00:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request >> >> >> So, if not, I still need to know some info, as I'd like to convert to >> EFI if it is not the greatest system, if it's a good mechanical then I >> won't bother, but I don't know what it is at all and the car is some >> 1000 miles from me, I can't just go pop the bonnet! >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Dmitri Pronin >> To: Rick McLeod ; diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:01:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request >> >> >> Wow!!! >> >> That one is one nice car! However, its injection system is not in fact an >> EFI. >> >> Dmitri. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McLeod" >> To: "diyefi" >> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:55 PM >> Subject: [Diy_efi] info request >> >> >>> Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E w/ 2.0Litre FuelInj, >>> like what system is used for control? >>> >>> I am looking at one but currently don't know much about it other than I >>> know the owner very well and own 3 recent 90's 850's currently. >>> >>> Any info appreciated, links to tech, etc. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Diy_efi mailing list >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From red93formula at hotmail.com Wed Aug 16 17:04:54 2006 From: red93formula at hotmail.com (93 Formula) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:04:54 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks alot Lee, I will look further at the TPS stuff as well as the IAC stuff as someone suggested on the f-body list. Jeff http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw & 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner... From bpatten at centurytel.net Wed Aug 16 18:19:49 2006 From: bpatten at centurytel.net (Brendan Patten) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:19:49 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c6c18a$7c51a190$6400a8c0@p42000> Sounds like the case of a bad opti-spark distributor. I had a 93 LT1 I swapped into my truck, then sold to a friend. Not too much later it started exact symptoms you are describing. Sometimes it would hardly start. He replace the distruibtor on it and it ran like a charm, at least for about a year. Then same thing. Again, replaced distributor and it fixed it. The 93 was a non vented distributor. Later models have a line that draws intake air through the distributor and into the intake. Any moisture build up can cause them to go bad. Sometimes pulling the cap and drying it out will help a lot, but not always. Anyways, good luck, they are expensive, but most likely the cause. Brendan Patten www.lt1swap.com -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of 93 Formula Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:48 PM To: fourth-gen at lists.f-body.org Cc: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( Anyone out there care to offer any other ideas of where to look for my problematic car? Its been years and I haven't been able to drive it. I have both diacom runs and datamaster runs. If anyone wants to take a look, let me know and I'd be glad to email them. I have run VE-MAster 4 times on datamaster data with not enough change to make it go away yet. I see some things I don't like in the data but don't what to make of all of it. Also - could the egr effect anything? I don't have one hooked up anymore. Should I turn something off or change the on/off values in the ecm? (I've put this back to stock now) Here are the symptoms - 1. Doesn't want to keep a "running" idle -aka wants to die when you put in gear or turn on the A/C... 2. When driving it - open or closed loop - from a stop to anywhere in the part throttle range, there is always like a jerk of the car like it wants to die (I thought it was going lean) and then it surges forward 3. the rpm's seem to have the jitters looking at the data, the LTs seem wrong - not near 128 usually. 4. the only time it seems to run ok is when I mash it but even then something doesnt sound right. I also noticed that one LT was stuck at 130 instead of 128 - seemed weird if using WOT I also noticed LT counts hanging around 108-114 range for a 9 second period when I let my foot off the gas after a 10% TPS yikes. 5. popping in the exhaust - especially when letting of the throttle but even at part throttle driving this happens. 6. still starts hard - long crank and then wants to die for the first 10 seconds unless I keep in the gas - reminds me more of my 73 Charger before I upgraded the ignition. What I've done... (besides aging 30 years in 3) ------------------------- changed programming like no tomorrow, went back to stock programming and started over, tried VE master 4 times - Is this something you should have to run a lot before it gets right? chk'd or changed coil, coil wires, spark plugs - although that was a year a go and they may be "fouled from too rich tests" Would these really need changing or would just a good hot romp burn em off? (which I've doe a few times) 1. I've helped the idle problem by adjusting the throttle stop out some to raise the idle speed. I tried raising #s in the ecm but it didn't help. 2. usually the only way to keep it moving when it does this is to feather the throttle until it finally gets going. 3-4. it does better to touch it at say 20% rather than a 5-10% throttle. I noticed in the data that the tps changes even when I don't have my foot on the throttle ??? I know there is some exhaust leak in the driverside Collector pipe since it never was a perfect fit I don't know if that is enough to cause all of these problems though. I did have problems with it starting and had to replace the battery - thought the pcm was dead, but apparently it was just my proms so I went back to my DOS program to make sure and it works but it I run 30# f*rd injectors in it now and they are programmed according to the formula someone posted here a while back - I think its is like 31.xx as the constant. Jeff http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw & 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner... _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From bpatten at centurytel.net Wed Aug 16 18:22:35 2006 From: bpatten at centurytel.net (Brendan Patten) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:22:35 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( In-Reply-To: <000601c6c18a$7c51a190$6400a8c0@p42000> Message-ID: <000701c6c18a$db9a54d0$6400a8c0@p42000> Ohh yeah I remember the second time my friend had to replace his distributor, one of the pins on the 4 wire connector was badly corroded. We noticed after he had already got it replaced (under warranty) so not sure if it was the pin or the 2nd distributor. Any ways Good luck. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Brendan Patten Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:20 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( Sounds like the case of a bad opti-spark distributor. I had a 93 LT1 I swapped into my truck, then sold to a friend. Not too much later it started exact symptoms you are describing. Sometimes it would hardly start. He replace the distruibtor on it and it ran like a charm, at least for about a year. Then same thing. Again, replaced distributor and it fixed it. The 93 was a non vented distributor. Later models have a line that draws intake air through the distributor and into the intake. Any moisture build up can cause them to go bad. Sometimes pulling the cap and drying it out will help a lot, but not always. Anyways, good luck, they are expensive, but most likely the cause. Brendan Patten www.lt1swap.com -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of 93 Formula Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:48 PM To: fourth-gen at lists.f-body.org Cc: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( Anyone out there care to offer any other ideas of where to look for my problematic car? Its been years and I haven't been able to drive it. I have both diacom runs and datamaster runs. If anyone wants to take a look, let me know and I'd be glad to email them. I have run VE-MAster 4 times on datamaster data with not enough change to make it go away yet. I see some things I don't like in the data but don't what to make of all of it. Also - could the egr effect anything? I don't have one hooked up anymore. Should I turn something off or change the on/off values in the ecm? (I've put this back to stock now) Here are the symptoms - 1. Doesn't want to keep a "running" idle -aka wants to die when you put in gear or turn on the A/C... 2. When driving it - open or closed loop - from a stop to anywhere in the part throttle range, there is always like a jerk of the car like it wants to die (I thought it was going lean) and then it surges forward 3. the rpm's seem to have the jitters looking at the data, the LTs seem wrong - not near 128 usually. 4. the only time it seems to run ok is when I mash it but even then something doesnt sound right. I also noticed that one LT was stuck at 130 instead of 128 - seemed weird if using WOT I also noticed LT counts hanging around 108-114 range for a 9 second period when I let my foot off the gas after a 10% TPS yikes. 5. popping in the exhaust - especially when letting of the throttle but even at part throttle driving this happens. 6. still starts hard - long crank and then wants to die for the first 10 seconds unless I keep in the gas - reminds me more of my 73 Charger before I upgraded the ignition. What I've done... (besides aging 30 years in 3) ------------------------- changed programming like no tomorrow, went back to stock programming and started over, tried VE master 4 times - Is this something you should have to run a lot before it gets right? chk'd or changed coil, coil wires, spark plugs - although that was a year a go and they may be "fouled from too rich tests" Would these really need changing or would just a good hot romp burn em off? (which I've doe a few times) 1. I've helped the idle problem by adjusting the throttle stop out some to raise the idle speed. I tried raising #s in the ecm but it didn't help. 2. usually the only way to keep it moving when it does this is to feather the throttle until it finally gets going. 3-4. it does better to touch it at say 20% rather than a 5-10% throttle. I noticed in the data that the tps changes even when I don't have my foot on the throttle ??? I know there is some exhaust leak in the driverside Collector pipe since it never was a perfect fit I don't know if that is enough to cause all of these problems though. I did have problems with it starting and had to replace the battery - thought the pcm was dead, but apparently it was just my proms so I went back to my DOS program to make sure and it works but it I run 30# f*rd injectors in it now and they are programmed according to the formula someone posted here a while back - I think its is like 31.xx as the constant. Jeff http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw & 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner... _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From llemoine at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 00:35:05 2006 From: llemoine at gmail.com (Lee M. Lemoine) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 01:35:05 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( In-Reply-To: <000701c6c18a$db9a54d0$6400a8c0@p42000> References: <000601c6c18a$7c51a190$6400a8c0@p42000> <000701c6c18a$db9a54d0$6400a8c0@p42000> Message-ID: Yessss! i remember my friend with a Pontiac Formula having the same issue... damn opti-spark ignition, and yes, that could very well be what your seeing as we couldn't tell by the codes or the running conditions. he actually rebuilt his whole motor expecting to find something only to fire it up and have to take it apart to replace the opti-spark system... -- LL On 8/16/06, Brendan Patten wrote: > > Ohh yeah I remember the second time my friend had to replace his > distributor, one of the pins on the 4 wire connector was badly corroded. > We noticed after he had already got it replaced (under warranty) so not > sure if it was the pin or the 2nd distributor. Any ways > > Good luck. > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] > On Behalf Of Brendan Patten > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:20 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( > > Sounds like the case of a bad opti-spark distributor. I had a 93 LT1 I > swapped into my truck, then sold to a friend. Not too much later it > started exact symptoms you are describing. Sometimes it would hardly > start. He replace the distruibtor on it and it ran like a charm, at > least for about a year. Then same thing. Again, replaced distributor > and it fixed it. > > The 93 was a non vented distributor. Later models have a line that > draws intake air through the distributor and into the intake. Any > moisture build up can cause them to go bad. Sometimes pulling the cap > and drying it out will help a lot, but not always. > > Anyways, good luck, they are expensive, but most likely the cause. > > Brendan Patten > www.lt1swap.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] > On Behalf Of 93 Formula > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:48 PM > To: fourth-gen at lists.f-body.org > Cc: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( > > Anyone out there care to offer any other ideas of where to look for my > problematic car? > Its been years and I haven't been able to drive it. > I have both diacom runs and datamaster runs. > If anyone wants to take a look, let me know and I'd be glad to email > them. > I have run VE-MAster 4 times on datamaster data with not enough change > to > make it go away yet. > I see some things I don't like in the data but don't what to make of all > of > it. > Also - could the egr effect anything? I don't have one hooked up > anymore. > Should I turn something off or change the on/off values in the ecm? > (I've > put this back to stock now) > > Here are the symptoms - > 1. Doesn't want to keep a "running" idle -aka wants to die when you put > in > gear or turn on the A/C... > > 2. When driving it - open or closed loop - from a stop to anywhere in > the > part throttle range, there is always like a jerk of the car like it > wants to > die (I thought it was going lean) and then it surges forward > > 3. the rpm's seem to have the jitters looking at the data, the LTs seem > > wrong - not near 128 usually. > > 4. the only time it seems to run ok is when I mash it but even then > something doesnt sound right. > I also noticed that one LT was stuck at 130 instead of 128 - seemed > weird > if using WOT > I also noticed LT counts hanging around 108-114 range for a 9 second > period > when I let my foot off the gas after a 10% TPS yikes. > > 5. popping in the exhaust - especially when letting of the throttle but > even > at part throttle driving this happens. > > 6. still starts hard - long crank and then wants to die for the first 10 > > seconds unless I keep in the gas - reminds me more of my 73 Charger > before I > upgraded the ignition. > > What I've done... (besides aging 30 years in 3) > ------------------------- > changed programming like no tomorrow, went back to stock programming and > > started over, tried VE master 4 times - Is this something you should > have to > run a lot before it gets right? > chk'd or changed coil, coil wires, spark plugs - although that was a > year a > go and they may be "fouled from too rich tests" Would these really need > > changing or would just a good hot romp burn em off? (which I've doe a > few > times) > > 1. I've helped the idle problem by adjusting the throttle stop out some > to > raise the idle speed. > I tried raising #s in the ecm but it didn't help. > > 2. usually the only way to keep it moving when it does this is to > feather > the throttle until it finally gets going. > > 3-4. it does better to touch it at say 20% rather than a 5-10% throttle. > I noticed in the data that the tps changes even when I don't have my > foot on > the throttle ??? > > I know there is some exhaust leak in the driverside Collector pipe since > it > never was a perfect fit > I don't know if that is enough to cause all of these problems though. > I did have problems with it starting and had to replace the battery - > thought the pcm was dead, but apparently it was just my proms so I went > back > to my DOS program to make sure and it works but it > I run 30# f*rd injectors in it now and they are programmed according to > the > formula someone posted here a while back - I think its is like 31.xx as > the > constant. > > Jeff http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula > Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, > Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win > Sw & > 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner... > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) From atomic at extendwireless.net Thu Aug 17 20:51:58 2006 From: atomic at extendwireless.net (Charles Woock) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:51:58 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Find stock 24lb fuel injector Message-ID: <001001c6c268$e6562370$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> I want to be able to walk into any old auto parts store and buy a (or six) 24lb fuel injector... I'm hoping that someone knows of a stock application that used a 24 lb injector or something very close to that. Like maybe a Ford T-bird Super Coupe 3.8 supercharged or a Cyclone or something... Please reply with the known rating of stock application injectors (no guessing please). Thanks :>) Charles From red93formula at hotmail.com Thu Aug 17 21:26:16 2006 From: red93formula at hotmail.com (93 Formula) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:26:16 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Find stock 24lb fuel injector In-Reply-To: <001001c6c268$e6562370$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> Message-ID: My car came with 24# injectors. 93-95 F-Body's had them. Jeff http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw & 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner... From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 17 21:31:22 2006 From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] Find stock 24lb fuel injector In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060818023122.48772.qmail@web80508.mail.yahoo.com> I believe VIN-8 350 tpi gm 'L98' series was standard issue w/ 24#'ers, and VIN-Y 305 had 19#'ers if that helps. At least that's what is in all 4 of the recent engines I've worked on extensively and all the doc on that series I have shows ----- Original Message ---- From: 93 Formula To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:26:16 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Find stock 24lb fuel injector My car came with 24# injectors. 93-95 F-Body's had them. Jeff http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw & 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner... _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From atomic at extendwireless.net Thu Aug 17 22:56:10 2006 From: atomic at extendwireless.net (Charles Woock) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:56:10 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel injector limits? Message-ID: <002701c6c27a$3e14ff80$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> I've done the math... I used a desktop Dyno to get as close to my motor as I could (many hours of tweaking), and came up with 270 hp (in my 4.1L Buick V6 race motor). The math says that a 24 lb injector is right at the limit of 270 hp. I have several questions about this. 1. I'm guessing that the desktop dyno will show a little more hp than I can actually get, right? 2. Injectors that are too big cause problems with idle and lower rpm tuning etc... How much bigger is "too big"? Will a 30lb injector be too big? 3. I found a 27lb injector at fiveomotorsport.com but I don't know what pressure that rating came from. Thoughts? 4. How long can you run an injector at 85% duty cycle before it starts to get wear out. Last and most important question. What do I buy 24#, 27#, or 30#?? I'm currently converting it to EFI using a 1227727 and 3.8L MPI intake. I like a challenge and the details of this project are definitely challenging me. Details, details! Thanks! Charles From aoturneriii at tds.net Fri Aug 18 01:01:25 2006 From: aoturneriii at tds.net (Arby) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:01:25 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( References: <000601c6c18a$7c51a190$6400a8c0@p42000><000701c6c18a$db9a54d0$6400a8c0@p42000> Message-ID: <036f01c6c28b$be8afbe0$0300a8c0@NATALIE> I got to see an optispark for the first time last weekend. A friend of mine was working on a Camaro with an LT-1. I was told there is a conversion kit that uses individual coil packs per cylinder and uses the optispark to trigger those. That takes all the "juice" out of the optispark and lengthens its life. Arby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee M. Lemoine" To: Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 1:35 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( > Yessss! i remember my friend with a Pontiac Formula having the same > issue... damn opti-spark ignition, and yes, that could very well be what > your seeing as we couldn't tell by the codes or the running conditions. > he > actually rebuilt his whole motor expecting to find something only to fire > it > up and have to take it apart to replace the opti-spark system... > > -- LL > > On 8/16/06, Brendan Patten wrote: >> >> Ohh yeah I remember the second time my friend had to replace his >> distributor, one of the pins on the 4 wire connector was badly corroded. >> We noticed after he had already got it replaced (under warranty) so not >> sure if it was the pin or the 2nd distributor. Any ways >> >> Good luck. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] >> On Behalf Of Brendan Patten >> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:20 PM >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( >> >> Sounds like the case of a bad opti-spark distributor. I had a 93 LT1 I >> swapped into my truck, then sold to a friend. Not too much later it >> started exact symptoms you are describing. Sometimes it would hardly >> start. He replace the distruibtor on it and it ran like a charm, at >> least for about a year. Then same thing. Again, replaced distributor >> and it fixed it. >> >> The 93 was a non vented distributor. Later models have a line that >> draws intake air through the distributor and into the intake. Any >> moisture build up can cause them to go bad. Sometimes pulling the cap >> and drying it out will help a lot, but not always. >> >> Anyways, good luck, they are expensive, but most likely the cause. >> >> Brendan Patten >> www.lt1swap.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] >> On Behalf Of 93 Formula >> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:48 PM >> To: fourth-gen at lists.f-body.org >> Cc: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation, backfiring, jumpy blues :-( >> >> Anyone out there care to offer any other ideas of where to look for my >> problematic car? >> Its been years and I haven't been able to drive it. >> I have both diacom runs and datamaster runs. >> If anyone wants to take a look, let me know and I'd be glad to email >> them. >> I have run VE-MAster 4 times on datamaster data with not enough change >> to >> make it go away yet. >> I see some things I don't like in the data but don't what to make of all >> of >> it. >> Also - could the egr effect anything? I don't have one hooked up >> anymore. >> Should I turn something off or change the on/off values in the ecm? >> (I've >> put this back to stock now) >> >> Here are the symptoms - >> 1. Doesn't want to keep a "running" idle -aka wants to die when you put >> in >> gear or turn on the A/C... >> >> 2. When driving it - open or closed loop - from a stop to anywhere in >> the >> part throttle range, there is always like a jerk of the car like it >> wants to >> die (I thought it was going lean) and then it surges forward >> >> 3. the rpm's seem to have the jitters looking at the data, the LTs seem >> >> wrong - not near 128 usually. >> >> 4. the only time it seems to run ok is when I mash it but even then >> something doesnt sound right. >> I also noticed that one LT was stuck at 130 instead of 128 - seemed >> weird >> if using WOT >> I also noticed LT counts hanging around 108-114 range for a 9 second >> period >> when I let my foot off the gas after a 10% TPS yikes. >> >> 5. popping in the exhaust - especially when letting of the throttle but >> even >> at part throttle driving this happens. >> >> 6. still starts hard - long crank and then wants to die for the first 10 >> >> seconds unless I keep in the gas - reminds me more of my 73 Charger >> before I >> upgraded the ignition. >> >> What I've done... (besides aging 30 years in 3) >> ------------------------- >> changed programming like no tomorrow, went back to stock programming and >> >> started over, tried VE master 4 times - Is this something you should >> have to >> run a lot before it gets right? >> chk'd or changed coil, coil wires, spark plugs - although that was a >> year a >> go and they may be "fouled from too rich tests" Would these really need >> >> changing or would just a good hot romp burn em off? (which I've doe a >> few >> times) >> >> 1. I've helped the idle problem by adjusting the throttle stop out some >> to >> raise the idle speed. >> I tried raising #s in the ecm but it didn't help. >> >> 2. usually the only way to keep it moving when it does this is to >> feather >> the throttle until it finally gets going. >> >> 3-4. it does better to touch it at say 20% rather than a 5-10% throttle. >> I noticed in the data that the tps changes even when I don't have my >> foot on >> the throttle ??? >> >> I know there is some exhaust leak in the driverside Collector pipe since >> it >> never was a perfect fit >> I don't know if that is enough to cause all of these problems though. >> I did have problems with it starting and had to replace the battery - >> thought the pcm was dead, but apparently it was just my proms so I went >> back >> to my DOS program to make sure and it works but it >> I run 30# f*rd injectors in it now and they are programmed according to >> the >> formula someone posted here a while back - I think its is like 31.xx as >> the >> constant. >> >> Jeff http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula >> Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, >> Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win >> Sw & >> 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner... >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> > > > > -- > Sincerely, > Lee M. Lemoine > KB1NQI - Amateur Radio > http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ > '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT > '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From aoturneriii at tds.net Fri Aug 18 01:05:14 2006 From: aoturneriii at tds.net (Arby) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:05:14 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Why I asked about the GM V-6 MPFI References: Message-ID: <037601c6c28c$47066810$0300a8c0@NATALIE> Dakota Digital makes a box that will adjust your PPM's to what ever you need. I've seen them for about 80 bucks. Haven't used one yet but plan to in the near future. Arby ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Boucher" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 8:27 AM Subject: [Diy_efi] Why I asked about the GM V-6 MPFI >I have a '89 325i. I also came across a turbo just right for a 2.5 liter > engine. Turboing the 325i is a big temptation plus playing with the fuel > and spark maps. > > BUT, as best I can tell, no one has hacked the Motronic 1.1 FI computers > to > any kind of detail like the GM ECU's. Which surprises me, as the size of > the memory chip used in the Motronic is really small. 2k or 4k? And that > is the size of the maps and programming. But I could be wrong. > > So, the voices in my head keep telling me to piggy back a GM system onto > the > 2.5. The list of road blocks to do this are short. > > > Engine timing. > > The MPFI system would require some kind of crank trigger. The spacing of > the disk slots on the crank could be copied on to a computer controlled, > laser cut disk and the disk sandwiched between crank pulley and the > harmonic > balancer. The BMW crank position sensing system (60 minus two knobs) is > on > the harmonic balancer and the bracket could be useable for mounting the GM > sensor or maybe the BMW sensor would work. > > Or, use a TBI system. There is a lot of room in the BMW distributor cap. > I > haven't looked at the details, but mounting a GM HEI reluctor ring (the > pointy thingies) might be easy. But turboing would be easier with 749 ECM > code. > > > Speed input to the ECM. > > The hardest part of converting my carbed '81 Suburban to an '89 TBI system > was the speed sensor situation. The 700R4 on the back of the TBI engine I > bought had the electronic sensor and not the cable drive. After > installing > everything, successfully running the car down the road, THEN figuring out > the output of the tranny speed sensor needed conversion to a step wave, I > should have pulled the tranny and had the output shaft converted to a > cable > system and bought the in-line speedometer cable sensor. > > The BMW uses a sensor on the differential which detects the pinion ring > teeth. I doubt the number of teeth will equal 2000 or 4000 pulses a mile. > Some kind of converter circuit is possible, but I can't do that. > > > Knock sensing. > > BMW didn't start using knock sensors till 1991. Mounting a GM knock > sensor > on the bimmer block might be a challenge. I have a Bosch knock sensor off > a > Volvo, but am not sure it operates the same as a GM sensor. I don't HAVE > to > have a knock sensor, but it sure would be nice. > > > Any thoughts would be appreciated. > > > Joe B. > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From sc7500 at sonic.net Fri Aug 18 15:17:55 2006 From: sc7500 at sonic.net (sc7500) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:17:55 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel injector limits? In-Reply-To: <002701c6c27a$3e14ff80$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> References: <002701c6c27a$3e14ff80$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> Message-ID: <44E62073.3000505@sonic.net> Charles Woock wrote: >I've done the math... I used a desktop Dyno...I have several questions about this. > >1. I'm guessing that the desktop dyno will show a little more hp than I can actually get, right? > > Charles... If we could all drive our computers [or buy everything in every catalog that promises "an additional 20 HP] we'd ALL be making 3,000 HP ! (;-) -- B.T. Corneto [The Mad Coater] BMDJ Marketing Occidental, CA www.sonic.net/~sc7500 From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Fri Aug 18 18:46:53 2006 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] wire loom Message-ID: <20060818234653.86142.qmail@web36707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well got the Waytek catalog today... and wow... awesome prices... anyone interested in some... Im thinking of getting 1.5", 1", 1/2", and maybe some 1/4 but to get the awesome prices I need to buy 100ft rolls... and I wont use 100ft of all of it in my life time... any one want to get some from me to ease the cost on me??? jim --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low PC-to-Phone call rates. From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 18 19:27:52 2006 From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] wire loom In-Reply-To: <20060818234653.86142.qmail@web36707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060819002752.75910.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> I'm not where I can check what size I'm out of, but would be interested in some of the smaller probabally either 1/4 or 1/2, I go through lots as everything I do gets loomed. I'm constantly wiring something. Shoot me the prices you have, I'll check whta I need and get back. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Butterfield To: efi list Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 6:46:53 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] wire loom Well got the Waytek catalog today... and wow... awesome prices... anyone interested in some... Im thinking of getting 1.5", 1", 1/2", and maybe some 1/4 but to get the awesome prices I need to buy 100ft rolls... and I wont use 100ft of all of it in my life time... any one want to get some from me to ease the cost on me??? jim --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From midniteplowboyy at yahoo.com Fri Aug 18 20:30:19 2006 From: midniteplowboyy at yahoo.com (Brad Davis) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] wire loom In-Reply-To: <20060819002752.75910.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060819013019.52920.qmail@web50011.mail.yahoo.com> I'll take 25' of each of the sizes you mentioned. I'm always needing a little here and there on a project. Thanks, Brad ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Butterfield To: efi list Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 6:46:53 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] wire loom Well got the Waytek catalog today... and wow... awesome prices... anyone interested in some... Im thinking of getting 1.5", 1", 1/2", and maybe some 1/4 but to get the awesome prices I need to buy 100ft rolls... and I wont use 100ft of all of it in my life time... any one want to get some from me to ease the cost on me??? jim --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low PC-to-Phone call rates. From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Fri Aug 18 21:38:10 2006 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] wire loom In-Reply-To: <20060819013019.52920.qmail@web50011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060819023810.92308.qmail@web36714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ok, I havent got it yet... so it will be a week or so some guys in local pontaic club are also chimming in... so I might be getting a bigger roll. I will keep you posted offline... jim Brad Davis wrote: I'll take 25' of each of the sizes you mentioned. I'm always needing a little here and there on a project. Thanks, Brad ----- Original Message ---- From: Jim Butterfield To: efi list Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 6:46:53 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] wire loom Well got the Waytek catalog today... and wow... awesome prices... anyone interested in some... Im thinking of getting 1.5", 1", 1/2", and maybe some 1/4 but to get the awesome prices I need to buy 100ft rolls... and I wont use 100ft of all of it in my life time... any one want to get some from me to ease the cost on me??? jim --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low PC-to-Phone call rates. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. From aoturneriii at tds.net Fri Aug 18 23:21:25 2006 From: aoturneriii at tds.net (Arby) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 00:21:25 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Diesel ECM Programming Message-ID: <05bc01c6c346$f125ef40$0300a8c0@NATALIE> Has anyone on this list done (or know of someone who has) hacking of big diesel engines, Cat, Cummins, or Detroit? What kind of hardware and software is available to do these engines? Myself as well as some other people want to crank up some trucks. Thank you, Arby From b.shaw at comcast.net Sat Aug 19 18:52:35 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 19:52:35 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded Message-ID: <44E7A443.1000008@comcast.net> Sorry for the off topic post but I know there's a lot of mechanical knowledge here and thought I'd solicit some opinions on this situation. We just returned from the vacation-from-hell. Amy's wagon ate the timing chain in upstate NY. We got towed into a garage where they quoted 4-5 hours labor, $450 to $500 to fix it. They stumbled and bumbled around with it for 3 days (each time I asked they were almost done, only a couple more hours) while we waited and finally at about 5:30 on the third day they started it, but it ran like garbage and was leaking antifreeze from around the water pump and had a major oil leak from the valve cover. They fiddled with the plug wires for 2 more hours before they finally gave up and pushed it out of the bay and into the yard. They went home to supper and left me, Amy, and the 2 kids (7 & 4) sitting in the car for 5 hours waiting for my car hauler to be brought up from CT. Oh yes, before they went home they handed me a bill for $1050. The bill lists a tow ($27), parts ($180) and the remainder labor: replaced the timing chain & gears, clean debris from the oil pan, and R&R valve covers for the compression test. The owner feels perfectly justified in the 2X bill, didn't know he had to clean the oil pan when he gave the estimate, didn't include the compression test (& valve covers) in the estimate. Some questions for the gang: 1) Is the 1988 Buick 3.8L V6 an interference engine? What are the chances we bent a valve? 2) They did a compression check before doing the work and said all 6 holes were 120 to 140. They had to pull the valve covers and loosened the rockers since the cam wasn't turning. I can't imagine how this is a valid test since the valves didn't open on the suck cycle. Is there any way this could have been a valid compression test? 3) I did a compression test this afternoon (cam's turning now :-) ), I've got 30 psi in hole #1, 90 in #3, and about 120 in the others. Squirted oil in #1 and retested... still 30. I pulled the valve cover to try to fix the oil leak and while it was off I removed the 2 rockers on #1 and retested... still 30 psi. 4) They spent 3.5 to 4 hours trying to remove the oil pan to clean the debris out of it (billed me for 4.3 hours). Is this reasonable for a Buick Century wagon? Seems to me there should have been another way other than removing all the stuff they did. 5) Is there any way to check cam timing without taking the timing cover (& water pump) off? I did some other checks too - all injectors are firing, I have spark in all 6. I'm thinking either a valve is bent in #1 or the cam timing is off. Any thoughts would be appreciated, my apologies again for the off topic post. Best, Bill From davida1 at hiwaay.net Sat Aug 19 19:25:26 2006 From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 19:25:26 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: +AFs-Diy+AF8-efi+AF0- Reality check - no efi content - long winded References: +ADw-44E7A443.1000008+AEA-comcast.net+AD4- Message-ID: <003701c6c3ef$243ceb10$6800a8c0@yancey.com> OH WOW+ACEAIQAh- Man do I feel bad for you. As someone who travells alot I know how a road breakdown can be. Read on for my opinion... +AD4- Some questions for the gang: +AD4- +AD4- 1) Is the 1988 Buick 3.8L V6 an interference engine? What are the +AD4- chances we bent a valve? YES and 100+ACU- Some will argue this but if there is any carbon in the valve releifs, it has become interfering. +AD4- 2) They did a compression check before doing the work and said all 6 +AD4- holes were 120 to 140. They had to pull the valve covers and loosened +AD4- the rockers since the cam wasn't turning. I can't imagine how this is a +AD4- valid test since the valves didn't open on the suck cycle. Is there any +AD4- way this could have been a valid compression test? It is not valid done in this manner. They told you a story if they claim these numbers. +AD4- 3) I did a compression test this afternoon (cam's turning now :-) ), +AD4- I've got 30 psi in hole +ACM-1, 90 in +ACM-3, and about 120 in the others. +AD4- Squirted oil in +ACM-1 and retested... still 30. I pulled the valve cover +AD4- to try to fix the oil leak and while it was off I removed the 2 rockers +AD4- on +ACM-1 and retested... still 30 psi. This engine-butcher did not know his butt from a hole in the ground. +AD4- 4) They spent 3.5 to 4 hours trying to remove the oil pan to clean the +AD4- debris out of it (billed me for 4.3 hours). Is this reasonable for a +AD4- Buick Century wagon? Seems to me there should have been another way +AD4- other than removing all the stuff they did. My Century has a different engine, no idea what is involved with pan removal on a 3.8. With a 3.1 the pan is +ACI-wide open+ACI- under the car. +AD4- 5) Is there any way to check cam timing without taking the timing cover +AD4- (+ACY- water pump) off? If so I don't know how. Could probably be done using the cam sensor magnet position viewed through the sensor hole. Would have to compare another gear and chain set to determine where this magnet is actually located. in relation to TDC. +AD4- I did some other checks too - all injectors are firing, I have spark in +AD4- all 6. I'm thinking either a valve is bent in +ACM-1 or the cam timing is +AD4- off. Any thoughts would be appreciated, my apologies again for the off +AD4- topic post. No apology necessary. I'll tell you now, if that engine threw a chain the valves are most certainly bent. I have rebuilt 4 or 5 of these 3.8's from same vintage cars. It will slightly bend the valves when they impact the carbon deposits in the valve releifs. The mechanic who worked on this car should have known better than to attempt this repair without removing the heads. This engine is famous for these failures and +ACI-everyone+ACI- who works on GM knows about it. Did this crackpot claim to be a GM mechanic? I would not trust this engine until it had been torn down and inspected / rebuilt. Especially if they had the pan off, no telling how many pounds of silicone have squished into the sump to clog the oilpump... Later, David From davida1 at hiwaay.net Sat Aug 19 19:26:01 2006 From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 19:26:01 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: +AFs-Diy+AF8-efi+AF0- Reality check - no efi content - long winded References: +ADw-44E7A443.1000008+AEA-comcast.net+AD4- Message-ID: <003a01c6c3ef$38c14c70$6800a8c0@yancey.com> Oh, and I hope you did NOT pay that bill+ACE- ----- Original Message ----- From: +ACI-Bill - Comcast+ACI- +ADw-b.shaw+AEA-comcast.net+AD4- To: +ADw-diy+AF8-efi+AEA-diy-efi.org+AD4- Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 6:52 PM Subject: +AFs-Diy+AF8-efi+AF0- Reality check - no efi content - long winded +AD4- Sorry for the off topic post but I know there's a lot of mechanical +AD4- knowledge here and thought I'd solicit some opinions on this situation. +AD4- +AD4- We just returned from the vacation-from-hell. Amy's wagon ate the +AD4- timing chain in upstate NY. We got towed into a garage where they +AD4- quoted 4-5 hours labor, +ACQ-450 to +ACQ-500 to fix it. They stumbled and +AD4- bumbled around with it for 3 days (each time I asked they were almost +AD4- done, only a couple more hours) while we waited and finally at about +AD4- 5:30 on the third day they started it, but it ran like garbage and was +AD4- leaking antifreeze from around the water pump and had a major oil leak +AD4- from the valve cover. They fiddled with the plug wires for 2 more hours +AD4- before they finally gave up and pushed it out of the bay and into the +AD4- yard. They went home to supper and left me, Amy, and the 2 kids (7 +ACY- +AD4- 4) sitting in the car for 5 hours waiting for my car hauler to be +AD4- brought up from CT. +AD4- +AD4- Oh yes, before they went home they handed me a bill for +ACQ-1050. The +AD4- bill lists a tow (+ACQ-27), parts (+ACQ-180) and the remainder labor: replaced +AD4- the timing chain +ACY- gears, clean debris from the oil pan, and R+ACY-R valve +AD4- covers for the compression test. The owner feels perfectly justified in +AD4- the 2X bill, didn't know he had to clean the oil pan when he gave the +AD4- estimate, didn't include the compression test (+ACY- valve covers) in the +AD4- estimate. +AD4- +AD4- Some questions for the gang: +AD4- +AD4- 1) Is the 1988 Buick 3.8L V6 an interference engine? What are the +AD4- chances we bent a valve? +AD4- +AD4- 2) They did a compression check before doing the work and said all 6 +AD4- holes were 120 to 140. They had to pull the valve covers and loosened +AD4- the rockers since the cam wasn't turning. I can't imagine how this is a +AD4- valid test since the valves didn't open on the suck cycle. Is there any +AD4- way this could have been a valid compression test? +AD4- +AD4- 3) I did a compression test this afternoon (cam's turning now :-) ), +AD4- I've got 30 psi in hole +ACM-1, 90 in +ACM-3, and about 120 in the others. +AD4- Squirted oil in +ACM-1 and retested... still 30. I pulled the valve cover +AD4- to try to fix the oil leak and while it was off I removed the 2 rockers +AD4- on +ACM-1 and retested... still 30 psi. +AD4- +AD4- 4) They spent 3.5 to 4 hours trying to remove the oil pan to clean the +AD4- debris out of it (billed me for 4.3 hours). Is this reasonable for a +AD4- Buick Century wagon? Seems to me there should have been another way +AD4- other than removing all the stuff they did. +AD4- +AD4- 5) Is there any way to check cam timing without taking the timing cover +AD4- (+ACY- water pump) off? +AD4- +AD4- I did some other checks too - all injectors are firing, I have spark in +AD4- all 6. I'm thinking either a valve is bent in +ACM-1 or the cam timing is +AD4- off. Any thoughts would be appreciated, my apologies again for the off +AD4- topic post. +AD4- +AD4- Best, +AD4- +AD4- Bill +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXw- +AD4- Diy+AF8-efi mailing list +AD4- Diy+AF8-efi+AEA-diy-efi.org +AD4- Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy+AF8-efi +AD4- Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy+AF8-efi +AD4- From b.shaw at comcast.net Sat Aug 19 19:35:06 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 20:35:06 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: +AFs-Diy+AF8-efi+AF0- Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <003a01c6c3ef$38c14c70$6800a8c0@yancey.com> References: +ADw-44E7A443.1000008+AEA-comcast.net+AD4- <003a01c6c3ef$38c14c70$6800a8c0@yancey.com> Message-ID: <44E7AE3A.7080109@comcast.net> Had to pay up to get my car out of hock. I almost told him to keep the car, probably should have in retrospect. At least I used a CC so I can contest the payment. Bill David Allen wrote: > Oh, and I hope you did NOT pay that bill! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill - Comcast" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 6:52 PM > Subject: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded > > > >> Sorry for the off topic post but I know there's a lot of mechanical >> knowledge here and thought I'd solicit some opinions on this situation. >> >> We just returned from the vacation-from-hell. Amy's wagon ate the >> timing chain in upstate NY. We got towed into a garage where they >> quoted 4-5 hours labor, $450 to $500 to fix it. They stumbled and >> bumbled around with it for 3 days (each time I asked they were almost >> done, only a couple more hours) while we waited and finally at about >> 5:30 on the third day they started it, but it ran like garbage and was >> leaking antifreeze from around the water pump and had a major oil leak >> from the valve cover. They fiddled with the plug wires for 2 more hours >> before they finally gave up and pushed it out of the bay and into the >> yard. They went home to supper and left me, Amy, and the 2 kids (7 & >> 4) sitting in the car for 5 hours waiting for my car hauler to be >> brought up from CT. >> >> Oh yes, before they went home they handed me a bill for $1050. The >> bill lists a tow ($27), parts ($180) and the remainder labor: replaced >> the timing chain & gears, clean debris from the oil pan, and R&R valve >> covers for the compression test. The owner feels perfectly justified in >> the 2X bill, didn't know he had to clean the oil pan when he gave the >> estimate, didn't include the compression test (& valve covers) in the >> estimate. >> >> Some questions for the gang: >> >> 1) Is the 1988 Buick 3.8L V6 an interference engine? What are the >> chances we bent a valve? >> >> 2) They did a compression check before doing the work and said all 6 >> holes were 120 to 140. They had to pull the valve covers and loosened >> the rockers since the cam wasn't turning. I can't imagine how this is a >> valid test since the valves didn't open on the suck cycle. Is there any >> way this could have been a valid compression test? >> >> 3) I did a compression test this afternoon (cam's turning now :-) ), >> I've got 30 psi in hole #1, 90 in #3, and about 120 in the others. >> Squirted oil in #1 and retested... still 30. I pulled the valve cover >> to try to fix the oil leak and while it was off I removed the 2 rockers >> on #1 and retested... still 30 psi. >> >> 4) They spent 3.5 to 4 hours trying to remove the oil pan to clean the >> debris out of it (billed me for 4.3 hours). Is this reasonable for a >> Buick Century wagon? Seems to me there should have been another way >> other than removing all the stuff they did. >> >> 5) Is there any way to check cam timing without taking the timing cover >> (& water pump) off? >> >> I did some other checks too - all injectors are firing, I have spark in >> all 6. I'm thinking either a valve is bent in #1 or the cam timing is >> off. Any thoughts would be appreciated, my apologies again for the off >> topic post. >> >> Best, >> >> Bill >> >> >> > From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 19 21:08:12 2006 From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 19:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] Diesel ECM Programming In-Reply-To: <05bc01c6c346$f125ef40$0300a8c0@NATALIE> Message-ID: <20060820020812.26058.qmail@web80507.mail.yahoo.com> I do know that there are some folks tuning the cummins (I think) packages that are used in class A motorhomes, as when I was shopping for one comparing one to another, the salesman had names of some folks that would turn up the heat on one I was looking at, as the package was hardware wise identical to a different brand, but about 75#/ft shy on torque, which he said was the way they charge more, everything is identical except the tune. Some of the marine engines are the same way (or at least used to be) that the engines are identical across a couple power levels, and the lower one is simply detuned, seems to be an expensive way to go until one includes the setup costs and it really makes sense then. reduces the castings/parts/assembly by 1/2 for every time they make a new model by detuning one slightly larger. Short answer, make friends w/ a RV shop, as their is a big market there, especiallly in the high end ClassA lines, the $250K and up ones! ----- Original Message ---- From: Arby To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:21:25 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] Diesel ECM Programming Has anyone on this list done (or know of someone who has) hacking of big diesel engines, Cat, Cummins, or Detroit? What kind of hardware and software is available to do these engines? Myself as well as some other people want to crank up some trucks. Thank you, Arby _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From red93formula at hotmail.com Sat Aug 19 23:01:11 2006 From: red93formula at hotmail.com (93 Formula) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:01:11 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] EGR Delete? Message-ID: When The hooker headers went on, my EGR pipe needed to be cut and I capped it off as shown on this page: http://findfastcars.com/93pics2.htm I am now wondering what - if anything - I should change in the computer to turn the egr off or will it not harm anything the way it is? Jeff http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw & 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner... From niche at iinet.net.au Sun Aug 20 01:51:28 2006 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:51:28 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: +AFs-Diy+AF8-efi+AF0- Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <44E7AE3A.7080109@comcast.net> References: <+ADw-44E7A443.1000008+AEA-comcast.net+AD4- <003a01c6c3ef$38c14c70$6800a8c0@yancey.com> <44E7AE3A.7080109@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060820144540.026cc7c0@iinet.net.au>> At 08:35 AM 8/20/06, you wrote: >Had to pay up to get my car out of hock. I almost told him to keep the >car, probably should have in retrospect. At least I used a CC so I can >contest the payment. har har, heres a thought, cancel the credit card transaction but send him a cheque for the original quoted amount with a note on the back of the cheque that it is amount quoted for "professional repair service" etc yada yada. Then get the car checked out by a GM qualified mechanic pronto etc. So after the cheque is banked by the bodgey mechanic and you have a report from your good GM mechanic then cancel the cheque on the basis it wasnt done as a "professional repair and service". He cant contest the c/c cancelation because he accepted the cheque and cant contest the cheque cancellation because he accepted it on basis it was for a "professional repair and service". I might add that I would have no qualms doing the above if there was any sense the guy was incompetent if however, he did the best job and still came up short then he should accept a large discount at the very least... good luck, >Bill > >David Allen wrote: >> Oh, and I hope you did NOT pay that bill! >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bill - Comcast" >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 6:52 PM >> Subject: [Diy+AF8-efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded >> >> >> >>> Sorry for the off topic post but I know there's a lot of mechanical >>> knowledge here and thought I'd solicit some opinions on this situation. >>> >>> We just returned from the vacation-from-hell. Amy's wagon ate the >>> timing chain in upstate NY. We got towed into a garage where they >>> quoted 4-5 hours labor, +ACQ-450 to +ACQ-500 to fix it. They stumbled and >>> bumbled around with it for 3 days (each time I asked they were almost >>> done, only a couple more hours) while we waited and finally at about >>> 5:30 on the third day they started it, but it ran like garbage and was >>> leaking antifreeze from around the water pump and had a major oil leak >>> from the valve cover. They fiddled with the plug wires for 2 more hours >>> before they finally gave up and pushed it out of the bay and into the >>> yard. They went home to supper and left me, Amy, and the 2 kids (7 +ACY- >>> 4) sitting in the car for 5 hours waiting for my car hauler to be >>> brought up from CT. >>> >>> Oh yes, before they went home they handed me a bill for +ACQ-1050. The >>> bill lists a tow (+ACQ-27), parts (+ACQ-180) and the remainder labor: replaced >>> the timing chain +ACY- gears, clean debris from the oil pan, and R+ACY-R valve >>> covers for the compression test. The owner feels perfectly justified in >>> the 2X bill, didn't know he had to clean the oil pan when he gave the >>> estimate, didn't include the compression test (+ACY- valve covers) in the >>> estimate. >>> >>> Some questions for the gang: >>> >>> 1) Is the 1988 Buick 3.8L V6 an interference engine? What are the >>> chances we bent a valve? >>> >>> 2) They did a compression check before doing the work and said all 6 >>> holes were 120 to 140. They had to pull the valve covers and loosened >>> the rockers since the cam wasn't turning. I can't imagine how this is a >>> valid test since the valves didn't open on the suck cycle. Is there any >>> way this could have been a valid compression test? >>> >>> 3) I did a compression test this afternoon (cam's turning now :-) ), >>> I've got 30 psi in hole +ACM-1, 90 in +ACM-3, and about 120 in the others. >>> Squirted oil in +ACM-1 and retested... still 30. I pulled the valve cover >>> to try to fix the oil leak and while it was off I removed the 2 rockers >>> on +ACM-1 and retested... still 30 psi. >>> >>> 4) They spent 3.5 to 4 hours trying to remove the oil pan to clean the >>> debris out of it (billed me for 4.3 hours). Is this reasonable for a >>> Buick Century wagon? Seems to me there should have been another way >>> other than removing all the stuff they did. >>> >>> 5) Is there any way to check cam timing without taking the timing cover >>> (+ACY- water pump) off? >>> >>> I did some other checks too - all injectors are firing, I have spark in >>> all 6. I'm thinking either a valve is bent in +ACM-1 or the cam timing is >>> off. Any thoughts would be appreciated, my apologies again for the off >>> topic post. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sun Aug 20 06:23:18 2006 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 04:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <44E7AE3A.7080109@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060820112318.83818.qmail@web32207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Bill - Comcast wrote: > Had to pay up to get my car out of hock. I almost > told him to keep the car, probably should have in > retrospect. At least I used a CC so I can > contest the payment. You may end up having to sue them to make it work. I was in a similar situation several years ago, and it was the repair bill from and testimony of the shop that repaired the damage the original shop did that got me my money back. I'd sue them for your money back PLUS the cost of a proper repair, as well as making sure you have a shop document the discrepancies (notably the compression test numbers). Hope it works out for you... | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From boucherj at prodigy.net Sun Aug 20 07:48:22 2006 From: boucherj at prodigy.net (Joe Boucher) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 07:48:22 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel injector limits? In-Reply-To: <002701c6c27a$3e14ff80$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> Message-ID: My apologies, I don't have an answer for you questions, just another question. I think the better approach for adding fuel is additional injectors. If there was some way to fire one or two additional injectors at some point, say based on rpm and manifold pressure, then you could remap the stock injector dwell to account for the additional fuel from the added injectors and carry on from that point. The benefit is the stock injectors will do their thing at idle and lower RPM's. I've thought the AC cut off function might do the deed. Joe B. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Charles Woock Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:56 PM To: 1diy_efi mailing list Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel injector limits? I've done the math... I used a desktop Dyno to get as close to my motor as I could (many hours of tweaking), and came up with 270 hp (in my 4.1L Buick V6 race motor). The math says that a 24 lb injector is right at the limit of 270 hp. I have several questions about this. 1. I'm guessing that the desktop dyno will show a little more hp than I can actually get, right? 2. Injectors that are too big cause problems with idle and lower rpm tuning etc... How much bigger is "too big"? Will a 30lb injector be too big? 3. I found a 27lb injector at fiveomotorsport.com but I don't know what pressure that rating came from. Thoughts? 4. How long can you run an injector at 85% duty cycle before it starts to get wear out. Last and most important question. What do I buy 24#, 27#, or 30#?? I'm currently converting it to EFI using a 1227727 and 3.8L MPI intake. I like a challenge and the details of this project are definitely challenging me. Details, details! Thanks! Charles _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From b.shaw at comcast.net Sun Aug 20 09:06:09 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:06:09 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <20060820112318.83818.qmail@web32207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060820112318.83818.qmail@web32207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44E86C51.2010907@comcast.net> I pulled the rockers this morning and put some compressed air in the plug hole. Air is blasting out the exhaust, #1 exhaust is bent. Bill Adam Wade wrote: > --- Bill - Comcast wrote: > > >> Had to pay up to get my car out of hock. I almost >> told him to keep the car, probably should have in >> retrospect. At least I used a CC so I can >> contest the payment. >> > > You may end up having to sue them to make it work. I > was in a similar situation several years ago, and it > was the repair bill from and testimony of the shop > that repaired the damage the original shop did that > got me my money back. I'd sue them for your money > back PLUS the cost of a proper repair, as well as > making sure you have a shop document the discrepancies > (notably the compression test numbers). > > Hope it works out for you... > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > From boucherj at prodigy.net Sun Aug 20 09:49:42 2006 From: boucherj at prodigy.net (Joe Boucher) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 09:49:42 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <44E86C51.2010907@comcast.net> Message-ID: If that is the limit of your problem, then pull the head and have a valve job done. Is it the head in front or the back of the engine compartment. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Bill - Comcast Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 9:06 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Reality check - no efi content - long winded I pulled the rockers this morning and put some compressed air in the plug hole. Air is blasting out the exhaust, #1 exhaust is bent. Bill Adam Wade wrote: > --- Bill - Comcast wrote: > > >> Had to pay up to get my car out of hock. I almost >> told him to keep the car, probably should have in >> retrospect. At least I used a CC so I can >> contest the payment. >> > > You may end up having to sue them to make it work. I > was in a similar situation several years ago, and it > was the repair bill from and testimony of the shop > that repaired the damage the original shop did that > got me my money back. I'd sue them for your money > back PLUS the cost of a proper repair, as well as > making sure you have a shop document the discrepancies > (notably the compression test numbers). > > Hope it works out for you... > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From jogross3 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 20 11:37:31 2006 From: jogross3 at hotmail.com (John Gross) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:37:31 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For whatever it is worth, I never mess with compression tests. They can most definitely be deceiving. IMO, it's only worth your time to do a leak-down test, as this will find bent valves, blown head gaskets/cracked heads, stuck rings, etc, etc. I've done compression tests on motors with slightly stuck rings, and it came out ok, but the leak-down showed the problem. Also, you can check the cam timing if you know the specs of the cam (centerlines mainly), but it would be a bear to do with the engine installed. The other thing to be weary of (I admit I'm about to use generalities, as I'm unfamiliar with the OEM gear in the 3.8L) is that you may have cracked a piston (assuming they're cast) as well since you appear to have tagged at least #1 with the exhaust valves. If the pistons are forged, you're likely ok. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Joe Boucher Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 10:50 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Re: Reality check - no efi content - long winded If that is the limit of your problem, then pull the head and have a valve job done. Is it the head in front or the back of the engine compartment. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Bill - Comcast Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 9:06 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: Reality check - no efi content - long winded I pulled the rockers this morning and put some compressed air in the plug hole. Air is blasting out the exhaust, #1 exhaust is bent. Bill Adam Wade wrote: > --- Bill - Comcast wrote: > > >> Had to pay up to get my car out of hock. I almost >> told him to keep the car, probably should have in >> retrospect. At least I used a CC so I can >> contest the payment. >> > > You may end up having to sue them to make it work. I > was in a similar situation several years ago, and it > was the repair bill from and testimony of the shop > that repaired the damage the original shop did that > got me my money back. I'd sue them for your money > back PLUS the cost of a proper repair, as well as > making sure you have a shop document the discrepancies > (notably the compression test numbers). > > Hope it works out for you... > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From lschneg1 at rochester.rr.com Sun Aug 20 19:37:49 2006 From: lschneg1 at rochester.rr.com (Leo Schneggenburger) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:37:49 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <44E7A443.1000008@comcast.net> References: <44E7A443.1000008@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44E9005D.3000508@rochester.rr.com> Hi Bill, I am not sure but I think this is an interference engine. It sure sounds like a bad valve at the least. Head gaskets are also a common issue on these engines and the fact that you are low on the adjacent cylinder makes me wonder about that too. Can you put air into the cylinder as a test? It should of course seal which it won't. Then see if air is coming out the intake manifold or the exhaust or look for bubbles in the radiator. You will know what to do after that. BTW, I am in "Upstate, NY" but I know that in NYC, /*anything */above the city is considered upstate and since you are from the tri-state area you probably think the same way, so where and who worked on your car if you don't mind answering? Privately if you wish. Leo Bill - Comcast wrote: > Sorry for the off topic post but I know there's a lot of mechanical > knowledge here and thought I'd solicit some opinions on this situation. > We just returned from the vacation-from-hell. Amy's wagon ate the > timing chain in upstate NY. We got towed into a garage where they > quoted 4-5 hours labor, $450 to $500 to fix it. They stumbled and > bumbled around with it for 3 days (each time I asked they were almost > done, only a couple more hours) while we waited and finally at about > 5:30 on the third day they started it, but it ran like garbage and > was leaking antifreeze from around the water pump and had a major oil > leak from the valve cover. They fiddled with the plug wires for 2 > more hours before they finally gave up and pushed it out of the bay > and into the yard. They went home to supper and left me, Amy, and > the 2 kids (7 & 4) sitting in the car for 5 hours waiting for my car > hauler to be brought up from CT. > Oh yes, before they went home they handed me a bill for $1050. The > bill lists a tow ($27), parts ($180) and the remainder labor: > replaced the timing chain & gears, clean debris from the oil pan, and > R&R valve covers for the compression test. The owner feels perfectly > justified in the 2X bill, didn't know he had to clean the oil pan > when he gave the estimate, didn't include the compression test (& > valve covers) in the estimate. > > Some questions for the gang: > > 1) Is the 1988 Buick 3.8L V6 an interference engine? What are the > chances we bent a valve? > > 2) They did a compression check before doing the work and said all 6 > holes were 120 to 140. They had to pull the valve covers and loosened > the rockers since the cam wasn't turning. I can't imagine how this is > a valid test since the valves didn't open on the suck cycle. Is there > any way this could have been a valid compression test? > > 3) I did a compression test this afternoon (cam's turning now :-) ), > I've got 30 psi in hole #1, 90 in #3, and about 120 in the others. > Squirted oil in #1 and retested... still 30. I pulled the valve cover > to try to fix the oil leak and while it was off I removed the 2 > rockers on #1 and retested... still 30 psi. > > 4) They spent 3.5 to 4 hours trying to remove the oil pan to clean > the debris out of it (billed me for 4.3 hours). Is this reasonable > for a Buick Century wagon? Seems to me there should have been another > way other than removing all the stuff they did. > > 5) Is there any way to check cam timing without taking the timing > cover (& water pump) off? > I did some other checks too - all injectors are firing, I have spark > in all 6. I'm thinking either a valve is bent in #1 or the cam timing > is off. Any thoughts would be appreciated, my apologies again for > the off topic post. > > Best, > > Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From b.shaw at comcast.net Sun Aug 20 19:54:07 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:54:07 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <44E9005D.3000508@rochester.rr.com> References: <44E7A443.1000008@comcast.net> <44E9005D.3000508@rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: <44E9042F.8080109@comcast.net> Hi Leo, L&A in Glenville, NY did the work. They're just north of Schenectady. Air in the spark plug hole showed bad exhaust valve, air leaking out the tail pipe. "L" of L&A fame says it's a chunk of carbon holding the valve open, swears the valves are OK because they did a compression test. Bill Leo Schneggenburger wrote: > Hi Bill, > I am not sure but I think this is an interference engine. It sure > sounds like a bad valve at the least. Head gaskets are also a common > issue on these engines and the fact that you are low on the adjacent > cylinder makes me wonder about that too. Can you put air into the > cylinder as a test? It should of course seal which it won't. Then see > if air is coming out the intake manifold or the exhaust or look for > bubbles in the radiator. You will know what to do after that. BTW, I > am in "Upstate, NY" but I know that in NYC, /*anything */above the > city is considered upstate and since you are from the tri-state area > you probably think the same way, so where and who worked on your car > if you don't mind answering? Privately if you wish. > Leo > > Bill - Comcast wrote: >> Sorry for the off topic post but I know there's a lot of mechanical >> knowledge here and thought I'd solicit some opinions on this situation. >> We just returned from the vacation-from-hell. Amy's wagon ate the >> timing chain in upstate NY. We got towed into a garage where they >> quoted 4-5 hours labor, $450 to $500 to fix it. They stumbled and >> bumbled around with it for 3 days (each time I asked they were almost >> done, only a couple more hours) while we waited and finally at about >> 5:30 on the third day they started it, but it ran like garbage and >> was leaking antifreeze from around the water pump and had a major oil >> leak from the valve cover. They fiddled with the plug wires for 2 >> more hours before they finally gave up and pushed it out of the bay >> and into the yard. They went home to supper and left me, Amy, and >> the 2 kids (7 & 4) sitting in the car for 5 hours waiting for my car >> hauler to be brought up from CT. >> Oh yes, before they went home they handed me a bill for $1050. From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Sun Aug 20 20:59:12 2006 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:59:12 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] EGR Delete? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of 93 Formula > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 11:01 PM > To: fourth-gen at lists.f-body.org; diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: [Diy_efi] EGR Delete? > > When The hooker headers went on, my EGR pipe needed to be cut > and I capped it off as shown on this page: > http://findfastcars.com/93pics2.htm > > I am now wondering what - if anything - I should change in > the computer to turn the egr off or will it not harm anything > the way it is? You should disable EGR in the code also. When EGR is disabled the timing is generally advanced some, this may cause problems if you don't actually have EGR. --steve -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. From lschneg1 at rochester.rr.com Mon Aug 21 00:53:44 2006 From: lschneg1 at rochester.rr.com (Leo Schneggenburger) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:53:44 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <44E9042F.8080109@comcast.net> References: <44E7A443.1000008@comcast.net> <44E9005D.3000508@rochester.rr.com> <44E9042F.8080109@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44E94A68.4070507@rochester.rr.com> Hi Bill, That is quite a ways from here so it is not anyone I have heard of before. Well I guess you could use GM Top Engine Cleaner and let it soak in to see if it clears up the problem. Pretty powerful stuff. We used it on 2.5 liter engines to eliminate detonation from carbon back in my dealer days. But than again, as sharp as this guy is he may have tried that. Yea, right. Leo Bill - Comcast wrote: > Hi Leo, > > L&A in Glenville, NY did the work. They're just north of Schenectady. > Air in the spark plug hole showed bad exhaust valve, air leaking out > the tail pipe. "L" of L&A fame says it's a chunk of carbon holding > the valve open, swears the valves are OK because they did a > compression test. > > Bill > > Leo Schneggenburger wrote: >> Hi Bill, >> I am not sure but I think this is an interference engine. It sure >> sounds like a bad valve at the least. Head gaskets are also a common >> issue on these engines and the fact that you are low on the adjacent >> cylinder makes me wonder about that too. Can you put air into the >> cylinder as a test? It should of course seal which it won't. Then see >> if air is coming out the intake manifold or the exhaust or look for >> bubbles in the radiator. You will know what to do after that. BTW, I >> am in "Upstate, NY" but I know that in NYC, /*anything */above the >> city is considered upstate and since you are from the tri-state area >> you probably think the same way, so where and who worked on your car >> if you don't mind answering? Privately if you wish. >> Leo >> >> Bill - Comcast wrote: >>> Sorry for the off topic post but I know there's a lot of mechanical >>> knowledge here and thought I'd solicit some opinions on this situation. >>> We just returned from the vacation-from-hell. Amy's wagon ate the >>> timing chain in upstate NY. We got towed into a garage where they >>> quoted 4-5 hours labor, $450 to $500 to fix it. They stumbled and >>> bumbled around with it for 3 days (each time I asked they were >>> almost done, only a couple more hours) while we waited and finally >>> at about 5:30 on the third day they started it, but it ran like >>> garbage and was leaking antifreeze from around the water pump and >>> had a major oil leak from the valve cover. They fiddled with the >>> plug wires for 2 more hours before they finally gave up and pushed >>> it out of the bay and into the yard. They went home to supper and >>> left me, Amy, and the 2 kids (7 & 4) sitting in the car for 5 hours >>> waiting for my car hauler to be brought up from CT. >>> Oh yes, before they went home they handed me a bill for $1050. > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From support at cad500parts.com Mon Aug 21 16:48:10 2006 From: support at cad500parts.com (Cad Company Support) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:48:10 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Reality Check - off topic Message-ID: <009e01c6c56b$907420a0$0600a8c0@CC2> Good cylinder pressure on most cylinders suggests bent valves rather than incorrect cam timing (cam timing should affect all cylinders evenly in most cases). A compression test requires the cam turn properly. A leakdown test does not (if you pull the rockers). However, a leak down test gives percentages, not pressure readings. I suspect you'll be able to get it right by pulling the heads and replacing the bent valves (or maybe just cutting them). Considering you are here, I suspect you can do that (or most of it) yourself... The Mitchell labor manual calls for 5.3 hrs for the timing chain and gears and 5.0 hrs for the oil pan. That's $885 labor here. The stock plastic covering on the gears gets into the oil pan, and can clog the pickup tube if a lot of it has come loose, but you don't know that until you are into the job. A good service writer/ technician team should have brought this to your attention (as well as the possibility of bent valves). They may be guilty of no more than incomplete diagnosis - meaning they didn't see all of the damage, but they did everything you paid them to. Yes, it bites. Had you known the bill would be $1000 and still not be done, you may have ditched the car. However, it sounds like they may have done what you paid for, in which case stopping payment is something you should check with a lawyer about before taking action. CW -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org Sent: None To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 18, Issue 21 Sorry for the off topic post but I know there's a lot of mechanical knowledge here and thought I'd solicit some opinions on this situation. We just returned from the vacation-from-hell. Amy's wagon ate the timing chain in upstate NY. We got towed into a garage where they quoted 4-5 hours labor, $450 to $500 to fix it. They stumbled and bumbled around with it for 3 days (each time I asked they were almost done, only a couple more hours) while we waited and finally at about 5:30 on the third day they started it, but it ran like garbage and was leaking antifreeze from around the water pump and had a major oil leak from the valve cover. They fiddled with the plug wires for 2 more hours before they finally gave up and pushed it out of the bay and into the yard. They went home to supper and left me, Amy, and the 2 kids (7 & 4) sitting in the car for 5 hours waiting for my car hauler to be brought up from CT. Oh yes, before they went home they handed me a bill for $1050. The bill lists a tow ($27), parts ($180) and the remainder labor: replaced the timing chain & gears, clean debris from the oil pan, and R&R valve covers for the compression test. The owner feels perfectly justified in the 2X bill, didn't know he had to clean the oil pan when he gave the estimate, didn't include the compression test (& valve covers) in the estimate. Some questions for the gang: 1) Is the 1988 Buick 3.8L V6 an interference engine? What are the chances we bent a valve? 2) They did a compression check before doing the work and said all 6 holes were 120 to 140. They had to pull the valve covers and loosened the rockers since the cam wasn't turning. I can't imagine how this is a valid test since the valves didn't open on the suck cycle. Is there any way this could have been a valid compression test? 3) I did a compression test this afternoon (cam's turning now :-) ), I've got 30 psi in hole #1, 90 in #3, and about 120 in the others. Squirted oil in #1 and retested... still 30. I pulled the valve cover to try to fix the oil leak and while it was off I removed the 2 rockers on #1 and retested... still 30 psi. 4) They spent 3.5 to 4 hours trying to remove the oil pan to clean the debris out of it (billed me for 4.3 hours). Is this reasonable for a Buick Century wagon? Seems to me there should have been another way other than removing all the stuff they did. 5) Is there any way to check cam timing without taking the timing cover (& water pump) off? I did some other checks too - all injectors are firing, I have spark in all 6. I'm thinking either a valve is bent in #1 or the cam timing is off. Any thoughts would be appreciated, my apologies again for the off topic post. Best, Bill _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi End of Diy_efi Digest, Vol 18, Issue 21 *************************************** From philhunt at comcast.net Mon Aug 21 21:19:22 2006 From: philhunt at comcast.net (Phil) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:19:22 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] info request References: <20060815152921.50555.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com><001c01c6c0a7$cf9ca9a0$2d7c77d4@none> <44E38849.9020800@gengas.nu> Message-ID: <005c01c6c591$61a04120$6401a8c0@juliephil> your post implies some in-depth knowledge of D jet. Do you have any info about tuning the full load (analog) "tables". We can change the pressure for a linear/across the rpm range change (like changing a main jet). How can one change the curve of the "table" (like changing an air correction jet). I assume it involves changing some resistance and/or capacitance values in the box. Phil Hunt. Phil's Foreign Car Service (former Volvo's From Hell driver-now very interested non participant) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Torbj?rn Forsman" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request >A Volvo P1800E (like all other fuel injected Volvos of that era with B20E, >B20F, B30E or B30F engines) has Bosch D-jetronic injection from about 1969 >to 1973. From 1974 on, all 4-cylinder models used the mechanical K-jetronic >system instead. > The 6-cylinder Volvo 164E however still used D-jetronic until 1975, when > that model was superseded by the 264, with a completely different engine > and K-jetronic. > > The D-jetronic was the world's first mass produced EFI system. It was > initially developed by Bendix, but Bendix saw no future for it and sold > the whole concept to Bosch in the mid-60's. Bosch then in a few years > developed it to a field useable system, it was first used on the VW 1600E > '68, and by 1969 it was implemented by a lot of european car > manufacturers. > > Of course, that early system has some weaknesses. > > The temperature sensors (for coolant and air temperature) often get > open-circuit. > > Early throttle position switches are not well sealed and must often be > cleaned to work well. > > The pressure sensor (a very vital component) contains a metal membrane > that may crack. Also, it is sensitive to dirt coming by the vacuum line. > It is a odd design, a transformer where a part of the core is moved > according to the intake manifold vacuum. That transformer is connected in > the feedback path of a monostable flip-flop in the ECU, which determines > the injector opening time. > > ECUs made before 1972 has big problems with all feedthroughs between the > sides of the double-side PCBs, they are implemented as component pins > soldered on both sides (no plated-through holes). Due to thermal fatigue, > the soldering will soon crack on either side of all such feedthroughs. > From 1972 on, those were replaced by "C-jumpers", i.e. a short jumper > where one leg is soldered on the primary side and the other on the > secondary side. > > The injector drive transistors (germanium parts, ASZ18 or similar) are > said to fail often in hot climates, although I never have seen a such > fault here in Sweden. Probably, this is a bigger problem on ECUs for 6- or > 8-cylinder engines where the transistors are more heavily loaded and more > heat from the injector ballast resistors is generated within the ECU. > > A non-electrical problem is that the short pieces of fuel hose crimped to > each injector is of low quality and soon gets leaky. This has caused many > fires. On injectors manufactured before about 1973, the crimp can be > filed away, the hose replaced and secured by a normal hose clamp. On newer > injectors, a special hose replacement set was once upon a time available > from Bosch. > > Best regards > > Torbj?rn Forsman > > Dmitri Pronin wrote: >> Don't they have Bosch "mechincal" FI? >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McLeod" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request >> >> >>> Also, the references I find show the 1800E to be EFI as of approx 1969 >>> or so, maybe 1970, so suspect this one (1971) to be EFI >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Rick McLeod >>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:00:23 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request >>> >>> >>> So, if not, I still need to know some info, as I'd like to convert to >>> EFI if it is not the greatest system, if it's a good mechanical then I >>> won't bother, but I don't know what it is at all and the car is some >>> 1000 miles from me, I can't just go pop the bonnet! >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: Dmitri Pronin >>> To: Rick McLeod ; diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:01:22 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request >>> >>> >>> Wow!!! >>> >>> That one is one nice car! However, its injection system is not in fact >>> an >>> EFI. >>> >>> Dmitri. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McLeod" >>> >>> To: "diyefi" >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:55 PM >>> Subject: [Diy_efi] info request >>> >>> >>>> Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E w/ 2.0Litre FuelInj, >>>> like what system is used for control? >>>> >>>> I am looking at one but currently don't know much about it other than I >>>> know the owner very well and own 3 recent 90's 850's currently. >>>> >>>> Any info appreciated, links to tech, etc. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Diy_efi mailing list >>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Diy_efi mailing list >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Diy_efi mailing list >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From bill.washington at nec.com.au Mon Aug 21 23:04:45 2006 From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:04:45 +1000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 18, Issue 23 In-Reply-To: <20060821170007.7C81237767@ns1.nec.com.au> References: <20060821170007.7C81237767@ns1.nec.com.au> Message-ID: <44EA825D.4060305@nec.com.au> Bill, Try this - pressurize the cylinder - with the air hose held in firmly, then slowly open the exhaust valve, rotating it while doing so if possible (I don't know how much access you have). then close the valve to see if there is any improvement. Alternately Rotate the rengine until that piston is at TDC, remove the valve springs, and rotate the valve with your fingers against the seat to dislodge any carbon, then try re-pressurizing. Was the engine working or idling when it ate the timing chain? If it was idling there 'may' be a chance it survived(that happened to a friend who had a Jag - the timing chain snapped at idle with no resulting other damage!!! quite amazing - he simply fitted a new timing chain and all was well!), if it was working the likelyhood is small! Regards Bill W > > Subject: > Re: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded > From: > Bill - Comcast > Date: > Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:54:07 -0400 > To: > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > To: > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > > Hi Leo, > > L&A in Glenville, NY did the work. They're just north of Schenectady. > Air in the spark plug hole showed bad exhaust valve, air leaking out > the tail pipe. "L" of L&A fame says it's a chunk of carbon holding > the valve open, swears the valves are OK because they did a > compression test. > > > From b.shaw at comcast.net Mon Aug 21 23:16:51 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:16:51 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <44EA825D.4060305@nec.com.au> References: <20060821170007.7C81237767@ns1.nec.com.au> <44EA825D.4060305@nec.com.au> Message-ID: <44EA8533.1060406@comcast.net> Bill, I was deaccelerating to take an exit off the highway. It just stalled and would not start again. The head is off, the valve is bent. Just slightly, but bent. Marks on the piston where it kissed, too. Cad, Yep, the labor sounds about right. There was a pile of plastic and metal fragments in a neat little cone under the pickup. They did in fact do the work I paid for. My only problem with it is the fact that they blew the diagnosis and the estimate. If they told me a valve was bent the car would have been junked. If they had told me it would cost $1k to fix the car would have been junked. This is why I titled the thread a reality check, to see if others here agree or disagree. Thanks for your input. Bill Cad wrote: The Mitchell labor manual calls for 5.3 hrs for the timing chain and gears and 5.0 hrs for the oil pan. That's $885 labor here. The stock plastic covering on the gears gets into the oil pan, and can clog the pickup tube if a lot of it has come loose, but you don't know that until you are into the job. A good service writer/ technician team should have brought this to your attention (as well as the possibility of bent valves). They may be guilty of no more than incomplete diagnosis - meaning they didn't see all of the damage, but they did everything you paid them to. Yes, it bites. Had you known the bill would be $1000 and still not be done, you may have ditched the car. However, it sounds like they may have done what you paid for, in which case stopping payment is something you should check with a lawyer about before taking action. Bill Washington wrote: > Bill, > Try this - pressurize the cylinder - with the air hose held in > firmly, then slowly open the exhaust valve, rotating it while doing so > if possible (I don't know how much access you have). then close the > valve to see if there is any improvement. > Alternately Rotate the rengine until that piston is at TDC, remove > the valve springs, and rotate the valve with your fingers against the > seat to dislodge any carbon, then try re-pressurizing. > > Was the engine working or idling when it ate the timing chain? If it > was idling there 'may' be a chance it survived(that happened to a > friend who had a Jag - the timing chain snapped at idle with no > resulting other damage!!! quite amazing - he simply fitted a new > timing chain and all was well!), if it was working the likelyhood is > small! > > Regards > Bill W > >> >> Subject: >> Re: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded >> From: >> Bill - Comcast >> Date: >> Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:54:07 -0400 >> To: >> diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> >> To: >> diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> >> >> Hi Leo, >> >> L&A in Glenville, NY did the work. They're just north of >> Schenectady. Air in the spark plug hole showed bad exhaust valve, >> air leaking out the tail pipe. "L" of L&A fame says it's a chunk of >> carbon holding the valve open, swears the valves are OK because they >> did a compression test. >> From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu Tue Aug 22 08:40:57 2006 From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F6rn_Forsman?=) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:40:57 +0200 Subject: [Diy_efi] info request In-Reply-To: <005c01c6c591$61a04120$6401a8c0@juliephil> References: <20060815152921.50555.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com><001c01c6c0a7$cf9ca9a0$2d7c77d4@none> <44E38849.9020800@gengas.nu> <005c01c6c591$61a04120$6401a8c0@juliephil> Message-ID: <44EB0969.9070303@gengas.nu> The method of full-load enrichment is very different among the various D-jetronic implementations out there. The oldest one is using a vacuum switch which shorts pin 2 or 9 to pin 14 of the ECU at full load, this will change a bias voltage to the monostable that is controlled by the pressure sensor. In this case, decreasing the resistors R207/R208 or R208/R209 (parallel connected) in the ECU will give more full-load enrichment. The next method is using a non-linearity in the pressure sensor, by fitting an extra membrane in addition to the usual "barometer" bellow. In this case, there is a sealed adjustment screw in the pressure sensor which sets the limit of travel for the membrane and hence the full load enrichment. And the newest method is using a WOT switch, like more modern Bosch systems. It is connected in approximately the same way as the old vacuum switch, and there are the same reference numbers of the resistors to be altered. However, please note that the pinouts of the D-jetronic ECUs are not all the same. There is a lot of small differences and it is always safest to refer to a wiring diagram for the actual car you are working on and then double check that the car's wiring harness seems to be wired like the schematic. The full load enrichment resistors in the ECU have always one end connected to the pin for the vacuum/WOT switch. A good thing is that in most cases, all wires in the harnesses are marked with the corresponding pin numbers of the ECU, so it is relatively easy to reverse engineer a D-jetronic harness and make an own wiring diagram. Best regards Torbj?rn Forsman Phil wrote: > your post implies some in-depth knowledge of D jet. > Do you have any info about tuning the full load (analog) "tables". We > can change the pressure for a linear/across the rpm range change (like > changing a main jet). How can one change the curve of the "table" (like > changing an air correction jet). I assume it involves changing some > resistance and/or capacitance values in the box. Phil Hunt. Phil's > Foreign Car Service (former Volvo's From Hell driver-now very interested > non participant) > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Torbj?rn Forsman" > > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 5:04 PM > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request > > >> A Volvo P1800E (like all other fuel injected Volvos of that era with >> B20E, B20F, B30E or B30F engines) has Bosch D-jetronic injection from >> about 1969 to 1973. From 1974 on, all 4-cylinder models used the >> mechanical K-jetronic system instead. >> The 6-cylinder Volvo 164E however still used D-jetronic until 1975, >> when that model was superseded by the 264, with a completely different >> engine and K-jetronic. >> >> The D-jetronic was the world's first mass produced EFI system. It was >> initially developed by Bendix, but Bendix saw no future for it and >> sold the whole concept to Bosch in the mid-60's. Bosch then in a few >> years developed it to a field useable system, it was first used on the >> VW 1600E '68, and by 1969 it was implemented by a lot of european car >> manufacturers. >> >> Of course, that early system has some weaknesses. >> >> The temperature sensors (for coolant and air temperature) often get >> open-circuit. >> >> Early throttle position switches are not well sealed and must often be >> cleaned to work well. >> >> The pressure sensor (a very vital component) contains a metal membrane >> that may crack. Also, it is sensitive to dirt coming by the vacuum line. >> It is a odd design, a transformer where a part of the core is moved >> according to the intake manifold vacuum. That transformer is connected >> in the feedback path of a monostable flip-flop in the ECU, which >> determines the injector opening time. >> >> ECUs made before 1972 has big problems with all feedthroughs between >> the sides of the double-side PCBs, they are implemented as component >> pins soldered on both sides (no plated-through holes). Due to thermal >> fatigue, the soldering will soon crack on either side of all such >> feedthroughs. From 1972 on, those were replaced by "C-jumpers", i.e. a >> short jumper where one leg is soldered on the primary side and the >> other on the secondary side. >> >> The injector drive transistors (germanium parts, ASZ18 or similar) are >> said to fail often in hot climates, although I never have seen a such >> fault here in Sweden. Probably, this is a bigger problem on ECUs for >> 6- or 8-cylinder engines where the transistors are more heavily loaded >> and more heat from the injector ballast resistors is generated within >> the ECU. >> >> A non-electrical problem is that the short pieces of fuel hose crimped >> to each injector is of low quality and soon gets leaky. This has >> caused many fires. On injectors manufactured before about 1973, the >> crimp can be filed away, the hose replaced and secured by a normal >> hose clamp. On newer injectors, a special hose replacement set was >> once upon a time available from Bosch. >> >> Best regards >> >> Torbj?rn Forsman >> >> Dmitri Pronin wrote: >> >>> Don't they have Bosch "mechincal" FI? >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McLeod" >>> >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 7:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request >>> >>> >>>> Also, the references I find show the 1800E to be EFI as of approx >>>> 1969 or so, maybe 1970, so suspect this one (1971) to be EFI >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Rick McLeod >>>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:00:23 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request >>>> >>>> >>>> So, if not, I still need to know some info, as I'd like to convert >>>> to EFI if it is not the greatest system, if it's a good mechanical >>>> then I won't bother, but I don't know what it is at all and the car >>>> is some 1000 miles from me, I can't just go pop the bonnet! >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: Dmitri Pronin >>>> To: Rick McLeod ; diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:01:22 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] info request >>>> >>>> >>>> Wow!!! >>>> >>>> That one is one nice car! However, its injection system is not in >>>> fact an >>>> EFI. >>>> >>>> Dmitri. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McLeod" >>>> >>>> To: "diyefi" >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 4:55 PM >>>> Subject: [Diy_efi] info request >>>> >>>> >>>>> Does anyone know anything about a Volvo 1971 1800E w/ 2.0Litre >>>>> FuelInj, >>>>> like what system is used for control? >>>>> >>>>> I am looking at one but currently don't know much about it other >>>>> than I >>>>> know the owner very well and own 3 recent 90's 850's currently. >>>>> >>>>> Any info appreciated, links to tech, etc. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Diy_efi mailing list >>>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>>>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Diy_efi mailing list >>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Diy_efi mailing list >>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Diy_efi mailing list >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From b.shaw at comcast.net Tue Aug 22 10:12:16 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:12:16 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <44EA8533.1060406@comcast.net> References: <20060821170007.7C81237767@ns1.nec.com.au> <44EA825D.4060305@nec.com.au> <44EA8533.1060406@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44EB1ED0.100@comcast.net> fwiw.... http://bill.shaw.gotdns.com/Buick/Buick.htm Bill From davida1 at hiwaay.net Tue Aug 22 15:55:13 2006 From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:55:13 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: +AFs-Diy+AF8-efi+AF0- Reality check - no efi content - long winded References: +ADw-20060821170007.7C81237767+AEA-ns1.nec.com.au+AD4- +ADw-44EA825D.4060305+AEA-nec.com.au+AD4APA-44EA8533.1060406+AEA-comcast.net+AD4- +ADw-44EB1ED0.100+AEA-comcast.net+AD4- Message-ID: <000d01c6c62d$5b66ce90$1201a8c0@yancey.com> Yes, that bend is pretty obvious+ACE- Thanks for sharing the pictures. Your engine bay is clean - I can tell you take care of that car. David ----- Original Message ----- From: +ACI-Bill - Comcast+ACI- +ADw-b.shaw+AEA-comcast.net+AD4- To: +ADw-diy+AF8-efi+AEA-diy-efi.org+AD4- Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 10:12 AM Subject: Re: +AFs-Diy+AF8-efi+AF0- Reality check - no efi content - long winded +AD4- fwiw.... +AD4- +AD4- http://bill.shaw.gotdns.com/Buick/Buick.htm +AD4- +AD4- Bill +AD4- +AF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXw- +AD4- Diy+AF8-efi mailing list +AD4- Diy+AF8-efi+AEA-diy-efi.org +AD4- Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy+AF8-efi +AD4- Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy+AF8-efi +AD4- From bill.washington at nec.com.au Tue Aug 22 23:22:57 2006 From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:22:57 +1000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Bosch Analog injection In-Reply-To: <20060822134603.A43593B6A9@ns2.nec.com.au> References: <20060822134603.A43593B6A9@ns2.nec.com.au> Message-ID: <44EBD821.5020909@nec.com.au> Torbj?rn, Thank you for the partial LU2 schematics a while back - I am still struggling to find time to get stuck into them, however, on the same topic, do you have a listing of the function of the adjustment resistors in the LU2 Jetronic? Best Regards Bill > > Subject: > Re: [Diy_efi] info request > From: > Torbj?rn Forsman > Date: > Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:40:57 +0200 > To: > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > To: > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > > The method of full-load enrichment is very different among the various > D-jetronic implementations out there. > > The oldest one is using a vacuum switch which shorts pin 2 or 9 to pin > 14 of the ECU at full load, this will change a bias voltage to the > monostable that is controlled by the pressure sensor. In this case, > decreasing the resistors R207/R208 or R208/R209 (parallel connected) > in the ECU will give more full-load enrichment. > > The next method is using a non-linearity in the pressure sensor, by > fitting an extra membrane in addition to the usual "barometer" bellow. > In this case, there is a sealed adjustment screw in the pressure > sensor which sets the limit of travel for the membrane and hence the > full load enrichment. > > And the newest method is using a WOT switch, like more modern Bosch > systems. It is connected in approximately the same way as the old > vacuum switch, and there are the same reference numbers of the > resistors to be altered. > > However, please note that the pinouts of the D-jetronic ECUs are not > all the same. There is a lot of small differences and it is always > safest to refer to a wiring diagram for the actual car you are working > on and then double check that the car's wiring harness seems to be > wired like the schematic. The full load enrichment resistors in the > ECU have always one end connected to the pin for the vacuum/WOT > switch. A good thing is that in most cases, all wires in the harnesses > are marked with the corresponding pin numbers of the ECU, so it is > relatively easy to reverse engineer a D-jetronic harness and make an > own wiring diagram. > > Best regards > > Torbj?rn Forsman > >.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > From PrecisionFuelInjection at msn.com Wed Aug 23 16:20:58 2006 From: PrecisionFuelInjection at msn.com (dustin allmaras) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:20:58 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Low impedence injector flowbench and other flowbench Q's Message-ID: Looking for some advice on building a flowbench. I've built a simple injector flowbench that will comparison flow up to 8 high impedence injectors. It's powered by a megasquirt ECU and stimulator. I need to run both high impedence and low impedence injectors in the flowbench and while I don't want to ask megasquirt questions here since there's a website specifically for that, I'm leaning towards getting rid of the MS and rigging up an OEM ecu or two that will run the flowbench. All I really need is for a set of injectors to pulse for simple comparison flowtesting. I've been fumbling with the idea of using two different ECU's, one for high impedence and one for peak and hold injectors and faking all the required ECU inputs to get it to function well enough to fire injectors. I'm familiar with the Ford EEC-IV computers and would probably use one for the high impedence injectors, but I've never worked with anything peak and hold before. I need to fire 8 injectors at the same rate, preferrably batch and wondering if anybody could suggest an ECU that isn't too difficult to work with that might handle the task for peak and hold injectors. I figured the tach or engine position signal to the ecu would be the most difficult and necessary input to reproduce without an engine, but I'm not against spinning a distributor or cam sensor, etc with a small electric motor for the time being. Could I fire low impedence injectors from an EEC-IV computer with injector resistors? Any thoughts on the issue would be most appreciated. Another question is regarding firing a strobe or timing light to view injector spray patterns. Anybody know a simple way to fire a strobe from an injector pulse? Finally, Anybody have an idea or known, simple solution for an inexpensive, accurate adjustable (15-80 psi) fuel pressure regulator? I'm using mineral spirits for a test fluid if it makes a difference. Please help! Thanks for your time! Dustin From b.shaw at comcast.net Wed Aug 23 17:17:24 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 18:17:24 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Low impedence injector flowbench and other flowbench Q's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44ECD3F4.5080405@comcast.net> Hi Dustin, The 1227749 SyTy/Sunbird ECM will run both P& H and saturated injectors with a simple jumper change. There are a number of '749 equivalent GMECMs available, the last one I got was a 16198263 that came from a quad-4 I believe. Here's a link to my ECM test bench... http://www.diy-efi.org/twiki/bin/view.pl/Gmecm/1227749 Ryan Hess here on the list is designing a PCB for use in an ECM test bench that could supply RPM and other signals you'd need. I've been thinking about building an injector flow bench so I'd be real interested in seeing what you come up with. It's easy to add to the twiki to share your work with the rest of us! Best, Bill dustin allmaras wrote: > Looking for some advice on building a flowbench. I've built a simple injector flowbench that will comparison flow up to 8 high impedence injectors. It's powered by a megasquirt ECU and stimulator. > > I need to run both high impedence and low impedence injectors in the flowbench and while I don't want to ask megasquirt questions here since there's a website specifically for that, I'm leaning towards getting rid of the MS and rigging up an OEM ecu or two that will run the flowbench. All I really need is for a set of injectors to pulse for simple comparison flowtesting. I've been fumbling with the idea of using two different ECU's, one for high impedence and one for peak and hold injectors and faking all the required ECU inputs to get it to function well enough to fire injectors. I'm familiar with the Ford EEC-IV computers and would probably use one for the high impedence injectors, but I've never worked with anything peak and hold before. I need to fire 8 injectors at the same rate, preferrably batch and wondering if anybody could suggest an ECU that isn't too difficult to work with that might handle the task for peak and hold injectors. I figured the tach or engine position signal to the ecu would be the most difficult and necessary input to reproduce without an engine, but I'm not against spinning a distributor or cam sensor, etc with a small electric motor for the time being. Could I fire low impedence injectors from an EEC-IV computer with injector resistors? > > Any thoughts on the issue would be most appreciated. > > Another question is regarding firing a strobe or timing light to view injector spray patterns. Anybody know a simple way to fire a strobe from an injector pulse? > > Finally, Anybody have an idea or known, simple solution for an inexpensive, accurate adjustable (15-80 psi) fuel pressure regulator? I'm using mineral spirits for a test fluid if it makes a difference. > > Please help! Thanks for your time! > > Dustin_______________________________________________ > > From jonnbell at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 18:55:23 2006 From: jonnbell at gmail.com (jb) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 18:55:23 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Low impedence injector flowbench and other flowbench Q's In-Reply-To: <44ECD3F4.5080405@comcast.net> References: <44ECD3F4.5080405@comcast.net> Message-ID: <40407c390608231655w1ebf03fame51741b85de7aa@mail.gmail.com> im no expert by any means, but wouldnt a 555 or simple power supply with some switches be easier? On 8/23/06, Bill - Comcast wrote: > Hi Dustin, > > The 1227749 SyTy/Sunbird ECM will run both P& H and saturated injectors > with a simple jumper change. There are a number of '749 equivalent > GMECMs available, the last one I got was a 16198263 that came from a > quad-4 I believe. > > Here's a link to my ECM test bench... > http://www.diy-efi.org/twiki/bin/view.pl/Gmecm/1227749 > > Ryan Hess here on the list is designing a PCB for use in an ECM test > bench that could supply RPM and other signals you'd need. > > I've been thinking about building an injector flow bench so I'd be real > interested in seeing what you come up with. It's easy to add to the > twiki to share your work with the rest of us! > > Best, > > Bill > > dustin allmaras wrote: > > Looking for some advice on building a flowbench. I've built a simple injector flowbench that will comparison flow up to 8 high impedence injectors. It's powered by a megasquirt ECU and stimulator. > > > > I need to run both high impedence and low impedence injectors in the flowbench and while I don't want to ask megasquirt questions here since there's a website specifically for that, I'm leaning towards getting rid of the MS and rigging up an OEM ecu or two that will run the flowbench. All I really need is for a set of injectors to pulse for simple comparison flowtesting. I've been fumbling with the idea of using two different ECU's, one for high impedence and one for peak and hold injectors and faking all the required ECU inputs to get it to function well enough to fire injectors. I'm familiar with the Ford EEC-IV computers and would probably use one for the high impedence injectors, but I've never worked with anything peak and hold before. I need to fire 8 injectors at the same rate, preferrably batch and wondering if anybody could suggest an ECU that isn't too difficult to work with that might handle the task for peak and hold injectors. I figured the tach or engine position signal to the ecu would be the most difficult and necessary input to reproduce without an engine, but I'm not against spinning a distributor or cam sensor, etc with a small electric motor for the time being. Could I fire low impedence injectors from an EEC-IV computer with injector resistors? > > > > Any thoughts on the issue would be most appreciated. > > > > Another question is regarding firing a strobe or timing light to view injector spray patterns. Anybody know a simple way to fire a strobe from an injector pulse? > > > > Finally, Anybody have an idea or known, simple solution for an inexpensive, accurate adjustable (15-80 psi) fuel pressure regulator? I'm using mineral spirits for a test fluid if it makes a difference. > > > > Please help! Thanks for your time! > > > > Dustin_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Wed Aug 23 21:04:35 2006 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 21:04:35 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Low impedence injector flowbench and other flowbench Q's Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of dustin allmaras > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 4:21 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: [Diy_efi] Low impedence injector flowbench and other > flowbench Q's > > being. Could I fire low impedence injectors from an EEC-IV > computer with injector resistors? Hey Dustin, you're going way overboard using an ECU to flow injectors. You can build an injector bench using a 555 timer chip and an output transistor for saturated injectors, and a P/H circuit for P/H injectors. The 555 can drive both circuits simultaneously, and you can hook the injector to the appropriate driver. A pot will take the 555 from 0% to 100% duty cycle, or use a rotary switch and fixed resistors to deliver predetermined pulsewidths. > Another question is regarding firing a strobe or timing light > to view injector spray patterns. Anybody know a simple way to > fire a strobe from an injector pulse? 1) external flash like a photographer would use. These are probably very simple to trigger. 2) reverse engineer a cheap strobe light. 3) timing light. Cut off the inductive pickup and wire to the injector firing signal. Would take some experimentation to make work. If it's a dial back then you can observe the spray at different points during the spray. 4) timing light. Use the injector firing signal to trigger a GM module, hooked to an ignition coil, and the inductive pickup on the timing light. There's a flow bench article on the DIY page you should read. www.diy-efi.org, click diy_efi, click projects, click flow bench. --steve -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. From A6intruder at myo-p.com Thu Aug 24 07:52:04 2006 From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 08:52:04 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Low impedence injector flowbench and other flowbench Q's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dustin, LM1949. It is an IC chip that handles Peak & Hold injectors. Go to the Digi-Key web site, look up the LM1949, pull down its data sheet and you can learn a lot about driving injectors. Use a LM555 circuit like the rest are telling you to provide your pulse train. I actually run a secondary injector system on my Mustang, I used the LM1949 to control the big Darlington transistor for each injector. This way I could run both lo and high impedance injectors. In the course of developing that driver circuit I built the 555 based signal generator and have run up to 4 hi impedance injectors at a time with it. I don't think the Darlington transistor I use would run 8 peak & hold injectors batch style. Possibly using a large Mosfet would allow that. 8 x 4 amps (that's your peak load with 8 batch-fire P&H injectors). Probably you could get by with 4 injectors at a time, compare results from two runs? Anyway, pull down the data sheet, it will get you started. Good luck, Dan Nicoson -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of dustin allmaras Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 5:21 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] Low impedence injector flowbench and other flowbench Q's Looking for some advice on building a flowbench. I've built a simple injector flowbench that will comparison flow up to 8 high impedence injectors. It's powered by a megasquirt ECU and stimulator. I need to run both high impedence and low impedence injectors in the flowbench and while I don't want to ask megasquirt questions here since there's a website specifically for that, I'm leaning towards getting rid of the MS and rigging up an OEM ecu or two that will run the flowbench. All I really need is for a set of injectors to pulse for simple comparison flowtesting. I've been fumbling with the idea of using two different ECU's, one for high impedence and one for peak and hold injectors and faking all the required ECU inputs to get it to function well enough to fire injectors. I'm familiar with the Ford EEC-IV computers and would probably use one for the high impedence injectors, but I've never worked with anything peak and hold before. I need to fire 8 injectors at the same rate, preferrably batch and wondering if anybody could suggest an ECU that isn't too difficult to work with that might handle the task for peak and hold injectors. I figured the tach or engine position signal to the ecu would be the most difficult and necessary input to reproduce without an engine, but I'm not against spinning a distributor or cam sensor, etc with a small electric motor for the time being. Could I fire low impedence injectors from an EEC-IV computer with injector resistors? Any thoughts on the issue would be most appreciated. Another question is regarding firing a strobe or timing light to view injector spray patterns. Anybody know a simple way to fire a strobe from an injector pulse? Finally, Anybody have an idea or known, simple solution for an inexpensive, accurate adjustable (15-80 psi) fuel pressure regulator? I'm using mineral spirits for a test fluid if it makes a difference. Please help! Thanks for your time! Dustin_______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From diyefimail at superxtune.com Thu Aug 24 13:59:47 2006 From: diyefimail at superxtune.com (Tim M) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:59:47 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? Message-ID: <44EDF723.1060008@superxtune.com> I am considering a flex fuel vehicle. Anybody have any real mileage numbers on E85 compared to regular or regular/10% ethanol ? We finally have it locally for $2.69/gal. Seems a bit high to be worth it. Thanks, Tim From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Thu Aug 24 14:56:11 2006 From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:56:11 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] OBD 1.5 data stream Message-ID: I installed a 1994 16191947 ECM in a non FI vehicle. A 12 pin ALDL was in the donor car and had a black wire which I grounded on term (A) and a orange black on term (M) that I connected to the ECM blue connector D12. Just checking if this is correct since my scan tool wont link up. The pin out I have only list the A and M term on the ALDL. From what I've read about the OBD 1.5 the donor car should have had a 16 pin ALDL. Thanks for the help ----------------------------------------- ************************************************** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ************************************************** From support at cad500parts.com Thu Aug 24 16:13:35 2006 From: support at cad500parts.com (Cad Company Support) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:13:35 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 18, Issue 27 Message-ID: <002b01c6c7c2$313f6960$0600a8c0@CC2> Matco sells (or used to) an 'injector tester'. The one I have triggers 1 injector with a standard connector, and has 2 jumper leads to power it off of the vehicle battery. There is no part number on it, and it is over 10 years old, but it was relatively cheap (and still works). It has 2 multi position switches to handle various types of injectors. I suspect it was made by OTC, and there is probably one that will trigger multiple units. This one is smaller than a pack of smokes. JC Whitney used to sell a stand alone ignition system in a briefcase sort of thing for under $150 - probably useless for running an engine, but could be a good source for triggering injectors. You may also want to check with an equipment supplier and see if you can get a replacement injector pulse generator for your 8 unit OTC, RAM, etc injector testing station. Might be cheap enough to be worth the labor savings, but that would take all of the fun out of it. I'm thinking the EFI injector driver solution would want to be a batch fire system, not SFI, especially if you want to look at the patterns with a strobe... If you can find an old timing light that triggers by a clip on the negative side of the points coil at a flea market (makes me wish I'd asked for Grandpas when they were cleaning out his old shop), it should trigger off the negative pulse wire to an injector. If you use an injector driver that will run 10 injectors, one of the extras could be used to drive your strobe without worrying if the strobe setup will affect the injector operation. You could probably build the strobe out of a $10 Walgreen's camera. The camera flash (Steve's idea) is a good idea IMHO, but external 35mm stuff is pretty expensive. The last $10 Chinese 35mm I dropped, the glass lens flash popped right out, and looked like a 2 wire hookup. Disposable cameras are probably a plastic lens on the flash, which wouldn't last long in that environment. CW Message: 1 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:20:58 -0700 From: "dustin allmaras" Subject: [Diy_efi] Low impedence injector flowbench and other flowbench Q's To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Looking for some advice on building a flowbench. I've built a simple injector flowbench that will comparison flow up to 8 high impedence injectors. It's powered by a megasquirt ECU and stimulator. I need to run both high impedence and low impedence injectors in the flowbench and while I don't want to ask megasquirt questions here since there's a website specifically for that, I'm leaning towards getting rid of the MS and rigging up an OEM ecu or two that will run the flowbench. All I really need is for a set of injectors to pulse for simple comparison flowtesting. I've been fumbling with the idea of using two different ECU's, one for high impedence and one for peak and hold injectors and faking all the required ECU inputs to get it to function well enough to fire injectors. I'm familiar with the Ford EEC-IV computers and would probably use one for the high impedence injectors, but I've never worked with anything peak and hold before. I need to fire 8 injectors at the same rate, preferrably batch and wondering if anybody could suggest an ECU that isn't too difficult to work with that might handle the task for peak and hold injectors. I figured the tach or engine position signal to the ecu would be the most difficult and necessary input to reproduce without an engine, but I'm not against spinning a distributor or cam sensor, etc with a small electric motor for the time being. Could I fire low impedence injectors from an EEC-IV computer with injector resistors? Any thoughts on the issue would be most appreciated. Another question is regarding firing a strobe or timing light to view injector spray patterns. Anybody know a simple way to fire a strobe from an injector pulse? Finally, Anybody have an idea or known, simple solution for an inexpensive, accurate adjustable (15-80 psi) fuel pressure regulator? I'm using mineral spirits for a test fluid if it makes a difference. Please help! Thanks for your time! Dustin From atomic at extendwireless.net Thu Aug 24 21:54:07 2006 From: atomic at extendwireless.net (Charles Woock) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:54:07 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? References: <44EDF723.1060008@superxtune.com> Message-ID: <000801c6c7f1$bc29a750$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> More alcohol means less mileage. I think the goal of this fuel is simply to reduce the "appearance" of the cost. I don't have hard facts but I think in the long run the cost to operate may be slightly less... Until there is an abundance of E85, then "they" will raise the price on that fuel as well. Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim M" To: Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:59 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? >I am considering a flex fuel vehicle. > > Anybody have any real mileage numbers on E85 compared to regular or > regular/10% ethanol ? > > We finally have it locally for $2.69/gal. Seems a bit high to be worth it. > > Thanks, > Tim > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From gpbeau at cox.net Thu Aug 24 22:58:21 2006 From: gpbeau at cox.net (Garrett P. Beauregard) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 20:58:21 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <44EDF723.1060008@superxtune.com> Message-ID: E85 has about 70% of the energy content of gasoline. So, e85 needs to cost 70% of the price of gasoline to break even. The last number I saw was something like 450 stations in the US had E85. With most E85 being supplied by local refiners, prices and availabilty will vary. The NEVC website has some good info, but they play down the disparity in energy and economy: http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php There is also some "value" associated with the reduced pollution when running E85, but that doesn't accrue monetary benefits in your wallet. Remember that you can still run old-fashioned gasoline in a FFV until E85 becomes more widespread and cost effective. Garrett -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Tim M Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 12:00 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? I am considering a flex fuel vehicle. Anybody have any real mileage numbers on E85 compared to regular or regular/10% ethanol ? We finally have it locally for $2.69/gal. Seems a bit high to be worth it. Thanks, Tim _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: 8/23/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: 8/23/2006 From cfrederick at new.rr.com Thu Aug 24 23:23:51 2006 From: cfrederick at new.rr.com (C. J. Frederick) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 23:23:51 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: References: <44EDF723.1060008@superxtune.com> Message-ID: <200608250419.k7P4JklF012830@ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com> I often wondered what happens when you have, lets say an 1/8 tank of one or the other fuel and have to fill up with the opposite fuel. Can the ECM seamlessly adjust for a mix (E85 and gas) in the tank? CJ >E85 has about 70% of the energy content of gasoline. So, e85 needs to cost >70% of the price of gasoline to break even. The last number I saw was >something like 450 stations in the US had E85. With most E85 being supplied >by local refiners, prices and availabilty will vary. The NEVC website has >some good info, but they play down the disparity in energy and economy: >http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php > >There is also some "value" associated with the reduced pollution when >running E85, but that doesn't accrue monetary benefits in your wallet. > >Remember that you can still run old-fashioned gasoline in a FFV until E85 >becomes more widespread and cost effective. From gpbeau at cox.net Thu Aug 24 23:36:40 2006 From: gpbeau at cox.net (Garrett P. Beauregard) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:36:40 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <200608250419.k7P4JklF012830@ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com> Message-ID: Yes. There is a sensor that detects the mix. No clue how it works, but it does and it's seamless. Garrett -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of C. J. Frederick Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 9:24 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? I often wondered what happens when you have, lets say an 1/8 tank of one or the other fuel and have to fill up with the opposite fuel. Can the ECM seamlessly adjust for a mix (E85 and gas) in the tank? CJ >E85 has about 70% of the energy content of gasoline. So, e85 needs to cost >70% of the price of gasoline to break even. The last number I saw was >something like 450 stations in the US had E85. With most E85 being supplied >by local refiners, prices and availabilty will vary. The NEVC website has >some good info, but they play down the disparity in energy and economy: >http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php > >There is also some "value" associated with the reduced pollution when >running E85, but that doesn't accrue monetary benefits in your wallet. > >Remember that you can still run old-fashioned gasoline in a FFV until E85 >becomes more widespread and cost effective. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: 8/23/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: 8/23/2006 From phil at injec.com Fri Aug 25 03:02:47 2006 From: phil at injec.com (Phil Lamovie) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:02:47 +1000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? References: Message-ID: <44EEAEA7.DCD314EF@injec.com> Garret, it seems like magic to me. >>> E85 has about 70% of the energy content of gasoline. So, e85 needs to cost >>> 70% of the price of gasoline to break even. Well lets see... 85% petrol and 15% ethanol would have at very minimum 85% of the energy content plus 26.8/42.7 (specific calorific value in MJ/kg) at 15% or .63 of 15% or 9.4% of gasoline. 85 + 9.4 = 94.4 % the energy content. If the fuel cost 5% less then it is "worth it" on purely financial terms. phil From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu Fri Aug 25 06:05:44 2006 From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?windows-1250?Q?Torbj=F6rn_Forsman?=) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:05:44 +0200 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EED988.6020306@gengas.nu> Older FFV cars (like the Ford Taurus from around 1996) have a fuel quality sensor which measures the dielectricity constant of the fuel. It is sort of a capacitor which uses the fuel as the dielectric, together with a capacitance measuring circuit. Today's FFV vehicles usually don't have any such sensor but uses the ordinary lambda control and adaptation functionality of the ECU to adapt for different fuel mixtures. In fact, some non-FFV vehicles have a large enough adaptation "window" to run well on either gasoline or E85, if they only get somewhat higher fuel pressure or larger injectors. The difference in fuel consumption between gasoline and E85 is often smaller than one might believe from the heat values of the fuels. This is due to E85's higher hydrogen content and lower carbon content than gasoline. The exhaust gases will contain more water steam and less CO2, which gives the engine better thermal efficiency as the steam takes more room per mole (please refer to any thermodynamics text book for more details). Additionally, the higher octane number of E85 permits earlier ignition and higher compression ratio than we are used to from gasoline engines. As it is more difficult to evaporate E85 than gasoline, it is very important to make sure that everything concerning the fuel vaporization is in best possible order. Good intake air preheating helps much, as well as using modern types of injectors and a relatively high fuel pressure. Best regards Torbj?rn Forsman Garrett P. Beauregard wrote: > Yes. There is a sensor that detects the mix. No clue how it works, but it > does and it's seamless. > > Garrett > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On > Behalf Of C. J. Frederick > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 9:24 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > > > I often wondered what happens when you have, lets say an 1/8 tank of one or > the other fuel and have to fill up with the opposite fuel. Can the ECM > seamlessly adjust for a mix (E85 and gas) in the tank? > > CJ > > > >>E85 has about 70% of the energy content of gasoline. So, e85 needs to cost >>70% of the price of gasoline to break even. The last number I saw was >>something like 450 stations in the US had E85. With most E85 being supplied >>by local refiners, prices and availabilty will vary. The NEVC website has >>some good info, but they play down the disparity in energy and economy: >>http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php >> >>There is also some "value" associated with the reduced pollution when >>running E85, but that doesn't accrue monetary benefits in your wallet. >> >>Remember that you can still run old-fashioned gasoline in a FFV until E85 >>becomes more widespread and cost effective. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: 8/23/2006 > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: 8/23/2006 > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From diyefimail at superxtune.com Fri Aug 25 07:01:11 2006 From: diyefimail at superxtune.com (Tim M) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:01:11 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <44EED988.6020306@gengas.nu> References: <44EED988.6020306@gengas.nu> Message-ID: <44EEE687.3080609@superxtune.com> Interesting. I knew about the higher octane and I knew that more advance would increase the mileage. So one can assume that the knock sensor "window" similar to the lamda window would take advantage of the fuel. The cost of E85 in my area is roughly 90-95 % that of regular. So now back to my original question has anybody done any real world mileage comparisons? I am also considering a diesel vehicle since I do some occasional towing, but the diesel offerings here in the states are limited. I am trying to stay level headed about it and not just go get the Duramax/allison 2500 truck... Anybody know when the 3.0L Jeep Cherokee diesel is coming out? (although I am guessing they are going to be very proud of this vehicle) Thanks, Tim Torbj?rn Forsman wrote: > Older FFV cars (like the Ford Taurus from around 1996) have a fuel > quality sensor which measures the dielectricity constant of the fuel. > It is sort of a capacitor which uses the fuel as the dielectric, > together with a capacitance measuring circuit. > Today's FFV vehicles usually don't have any such sensor but uses the > ordinary lambda control and adaptation functionality of the ECU to > adapt for different fuel mixtures. In fact, some non-FFV vehicles have > a large enough adaptation "window" to run well on either gasoline or > E85, if they only get somewhat higher fuel pressure or larger injectors. > > The difference in fuel consumption between gasoline and E85 is often > smaller than one might believe from the heat values of the fuels. This > is due to E85's higher hydrogen content and lower carbon content than > gasoline. The exhaust gases will contain more water steam and less > CO2, which gives the engine better thermal efficiency as the steam > takes more room per mole (please refer to any thermodynamics text book > for more details). Additionally, the higher octane number of E85 > permits earlier ignition and higher compression ratio than we are used > to from gasoline engines. > As it is more difficult to evaporate E85 than gasoline, it is very > important to make sure that everything concerning the fuel > vaporization is in best possible order. Good intake air preheating > helps much, as well as using modern types of injectors and a > relatively high fuel pressure. > > Best regards > > Torbj?rn Forsman > > > Garrett P. Beauregard wrote: >> Yes. There is a sensor that detects the mix. No clue how it works, >> but it >> does and it's seamless. >> >> Garrett >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On >> Behalf Of C. J. Frederick >> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 9:24 PM >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? >> >> >> I often wondered what happens when you have, lets say an 1/8 tank of >> one or >> the other fuel and have to fill up with the opposite fuel. Can the ECM >> seamlessly adjust for a mix (E85 and gas) in the tank? >> >> CJ >> >> >> >>> E85 has about 70% of the energy content of gasoline. So, e85 needs >>> to cost >>> 70% of the price of gasoline to break even. The last number I saw was >>> something like 450 stations in the US had E85. With most E85 being >>> supplied >>> by local refiners, prices and availabilty will vary. The NEVC >>> website has >>> some good info, but they play down the disparity in energy and economy: >>> http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php >>> >>> There is also some "value" associated with the reduced pollution when >>> running E85, but that doesn't accrue monetary benefits in your wallet. >>> >>> Remember that you can still run old-fashioned gasoline in a FFV >>> until E85 >>> becomes more widespread and cost effective. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: >> 8/23/2006 >> >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/426 - Release Date: >> 8/23/2006 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > From rfrey at iupui.edu Fri Aug 25 07:50:35 2006 From: rfrey at iupui.edu (Frey, Richard K) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:50:35 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <44EEE687.3080609@superxtune.com> Message-ID: <0C323EFBDBDBDD4697BD0C0F2D745C525E7B6E@iu-mssg-mbx101.ads.iu.edu> I am a big fan of diesel vehicles. Starting in 2007 (4 months away) the US government has mandated the sole use of low sulfur diesel fuels. I have been told by people in the know that this will open the flood gates for European manufacturers of diesel vehicles and we will see many highly successful diesel designs on our shores. Due to the lower sulfur fuels their current modern designs will soon meet our emission standards and no further expense will be required to bring these vehicles to the US. BMW diesel sedans actually out perform their gas counterparts. If you follow LMS (or whatever they call themselves these days) racing, you have seen the amazing success of the tdi audi diesel in that racing series, all designed to drum up interest in VW/audi diesels here in the states. I predict you'll be able to purchase super efficient econoboxes up to performance sedans. The fact that the jeep will have a European origin diesel in it soon is strong evidence of the change afoot. They will probably arrive with the low sulfur fuel. I read somewhere that 70% of new cars sold in Europe are now diesels. Don't quote me on that one. Now, iF you're into homebrew, there is always French fry fat at a cost of about 70 cents a gallon to produce at home into a viable, although not perfect, alternative source for serious fuel savings. Modern diesels are amazing designs and should be seriously looked at. rick frey -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Tim M Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 8:01 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? Interesting. I am also considering a diesel vehicle since I do some occasional towing, but the diesel offerings here in the states are limited. I am trying to stay level headed about it and not just go get the Duramax/allison 2500 truck... Anybody know when the 3.0L Jeep Cherokee diesel is coming out? (although I am guessing they are going to be very proud of this vehicle) Thanks, Tim page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From liberty1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 08:30:26 2006 From: liberty1 at gmail.com (Bobby Yates Emory) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:30:26 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <44EEAEA7.DCD314EF@injec.com> References: <44EEAEA7.DCD314EF@injec.com> Message-ID: <54b6188b0608250630j77d907aaj6279d3c2a036b5b@mail.gmail.com> Phil, E85 is 85% ethanol. Bobby On 8/25/06, Phil Lamovie wrote: > > > Garret, it seems like magic to me. > > >>> E85 has about 70% of the energy content of gasoline. So, e85 needs to > cost > >>> 70% of the price of gasoline to break even. > > > Well lets see... 85% petrol and 15% ethanol would have at very minimum 85% > of the energy content plus 26.8/42.7 (specific calorific value in MJ/kg) > at 15% > or > .63 of 15% or 9.4% of gasoline. > > 85 + 9.4 = 94.4 % the energy content. > > If the fuel cost 5% less then it is "worth it" on purely financial terms. > > phil > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Toward freedom, Bobby Yates Emory From gas- at charter.net Fri Aug 25 08:51:01 2006 From: gas- at charter.net (Gary) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 08:51:01 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? References: <44EED988.6020306@gengas.nu> <44EEE687.3080609@superxtune.com> Message-ID: <000c01c6c84d$80ba5550$34147544@homedesktop> To figure the true cost of this scam at the pump, you need to include the tax $$$ that subsidize the production of ethanol (or E85). IOW, at the present, this is not a very cost effective alternate fuel. GAS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim M" To: Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:01 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > > The cost of E85 in my area is roughly 90-95 % that of regular. > From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Fri Aug 25 09:23:39 2006 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:23:39 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Frey, Richard K > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:51 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > > I am a big fan of diesel vehicles. Starting in 2007 (4 > months away) the US government has mandated the sole use of > low sulfur diesel fuels. I have been told by people in the > know that this will open the flood gates for European > manufacturers of diesel vehicles and we will see many highly > successful diesel designs on our shores. Due to the lower It's simple enough to go to the EPA OTAQ WWW page and download a spreadsheet showing emission certification levels for vehicles sold in the US. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/crttst.htm Search for the diesel Jetta and you'll find NOX emissions of .55 grams/mile, and HC emissions of .28 grams/mile. Then search for c2500 and you'll find a heavy duty gas pickup with NOx emissions of .1 g/mile and HC emissions of .017 g/mile. The pickup, with the mileage you'd expect from an 8 liter v8, is far cleaner than the anemic diesel jetta with it's cute little 1.9l diesel. The 2007 certifications aren't out yet but I doubt low sulphur is going to make much difference to HC or NOx. Diesel engines have their place towing/hauling, but not in making the air any cleaner. I don't understand how diesel has an image of being environmentally friendly. "Dr. Z" may claim that the Liberty is the cleanest diesel ever, but in fact it's dirtier than the jetta. --steve -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Fri Aug 25 09:28:23 2006 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:28:23 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Gary > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 8:51 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > > To figure the true cost of this scam at the pump, you need to > include the tax $$$ that subsidize the production of ethanol > (or E85). IOW, at the present, this is not a very cost > effective alternate fuel. Farming is petroleum intensive work, with diesel fuel for equipment, petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides. Then add the fact that ethanol can't go in a pipeline and has to be hauled everywhere by truck. If you have to burn a gallon of diesel to make and transport a gallon of ethanol then it's not very "hydrocarbon effective" either. E85 is about corporate welfare, and farming welfare queens. --steve -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. From liberty1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 09:50:33 2006 From: liberty1 at gmail.com (Bobby Yates Emory) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:50:33 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54b6188b0608250750y8905714r91080ebe47e4ef14@mail.gmail.com> Steve, All bets are off on diesels and their emissions. The whole point of low sulphur is to allow exhaust filters or catalytic converters or whatever they are going to do. Then NOx should come down. It may be 2008 before we see the full effect. If you want to do a comparison today, your closest equivalent would be to a European vehicle - they already use low sulfur. A lot of people are worried about CO2. Your comparison might be a little different for greenhouse gases with the Chevy getting 12 mpg and the Jetta getting 40 or more. Same difference for imports of foreign oil. Bobby On 8/25/06, Steve Ravet wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Frey, Richard K > > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:51 AM > > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > > > > I am a big fan of diesel vehicles. Starting in 2007 (4 > > months away) the US government has mandated the sole use of > > low sulfur diesel fuels. I have been told by people in the > > know that this will open the flood gates for European > > manufacturers of diesel vehicles and we will see many highly > > successful diesel designs on our shores. Due to the lower > > It's simple enough to go to the EPA OTAQ WWW page and download a > spreadsheet showing emission certification levels for vehicles sold in > the US. > > http://www.epa.gov/otaq/crttst.htm > > Search for the diesel Jetta and you'll find NOX emissions of .55 > grams/mile, and HC emissions of .28 grams/mile. > > Then search for c2500 and you'll find a heavy duty gas pickup with NOx > emissions of .1 g/mile and HC emissions of .017 g/mile. The pickup, > with the mileage you'd expect from an 8 liter v8, is far cleaner than > the anemic diesel jetta with it's cute little 1.9l diesel. > > The 2007 certifications aren't out yet but I doubt low sulphur is going > to make much difference to HC or NOx. > > Diesel engines have their place towing/hauling, but not in making the > air any cleaner. I don't understand how diesel has an image of being > environmentally friendly. "Dr. Z" may claim that the Liberty is the > cleanest diesel ever, but in fact it's dirtier than the jetta. > > --steve > > > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the > information in any medium. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Toward freedom, Bobby Yates Emory From liberty1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 09:53:07 2006 From: liberty1 at gmail.com (Bobby Yates Emory) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:53:07 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54b6188b0608250753g1f16ab7am4e87f57028d5d4ca@mail.gmail.com> Steve, Amen. Ethanol is a solvent that makes your money disappear, only to reappear in the corporate coffers at ADM. :-) Bobby On 8/25/06, Steve Ravet wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Gary > > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 8:51 AM > > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > > > > To figure the true cost of this scam at the pump, you need to > > include the tax $$$ that subsidize the production of ethanol > > (or E85). IOW, at the present, this is not a very cost > > effective alternate fuel. > > Farming is petroleum intensive work, with diesel fuel for equipment, > petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides. Then add the fact that > ethanol can't go in a pipeline and has to be hauled everywhere by truck. > If you have to burn a gallon of diesel to make and transport a gallon of > ethanol then it's not very "hydrocarbon effective" either. E85 is about > corporate welfare, and farming welfare queens. > > --steve > > > -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the > information in any medium. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Toward freedom, Bobby Yates Emory From gas- at charter.net Fri Aug 25 11:11:54 2006 From: gas- at charter.net (Gary) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 11:11:54 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? References: Message-ID: <000201c6c861$50483450$34147544@homedesktop> Steve, I can summarize your my post with your last comment. > E85 is about corporate welfare, and farming welfare queens. The farmer as you and I recognize, is not the beneficiary here. We need to look no further than the mega $$$ spent by lobbyists on behalf of corporate (Midland ?) corn producers, to coherse the legislation these producers desire. A lot of foolish/irresponsible people posing as congressmen. GAS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ravet" To: Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 9:28 AM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Gary > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 8:51 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > > To figure the true cost of this scam at the pump, you need to > include the tax $$$ that subsidize the production of ethanol > (or E85). IOW, at the present, this is not a very cost > effective alternate fuel. Farming is petroleum intensive work, with diesel fuel for equipment, petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides. Then add the fact that ethanol can't go in a pipeline and has to be hauled everywhere by truck. If you have to burn a gallon of diesel to make and transport a gallon of ethanol then it's not very "hydrocarbon effective" either. E85 is about corporate welfare, and farming welfare queens. From gas- at charter.net Fri Aug 25 11:30:06 2006 From: gas- at charter.net (Gary) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 11:30:06 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? References: Message-ID: <000a01c6c863$bb8bd9e0$34147544@homedesktop> Steve, I can summarize your post with your last comment. > E85 is about corporate welfare, and farming welfare queens. The traditional farmer as you and I know him, is not the beneficiary here. We need not look any further than the mega $$$ corporate corn producers (Midland ?) through lobbyists, invest to coheres the legislation they desire. There are a lot of foolish/irresponsible people posing as congressmen. GAS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ravet" To: Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 9:28 AM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Gary > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 8:51 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > > To figure the true cost of this scam at the pump, you need to > include the tax $$$ that subsidize the production of ethanol > (or E85). IOW, at the present, this is not a very cost > effective alternate fuel. Farming is petroleum intensive work, with diesel fuel for equipment, petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides. Then add the fact that ethanol can't go in a pipeline and has to be hauled everywhere by truck. If you have to burn a gallon of diesel to make and transport a gallon of ethanol then it's not very "hydrocarbon effective" either. E85 is about corporate welfare, and farming welfare queens. From gpzmotoman at comcast.net Fri Aug 25 13:26:29 2006 From: gpzmotoman at comcast.net (Frederick Trient) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 11:26:29 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E35FB4C-BE1C-447B-94E0-A8FDBA24C85E@comcast.net> This "pipeline" factor is new to me. Why can't ethanol be piped? Could it be if pre-mixed with petro? I don't see much mention in this thread of the geo-political ramifications of using greater and greater amounts of ethanol. For me, on balance, the upside is that less and less $ goes to petro producing countries that turn around and funnel some of that wealth into Islamic extremist organizations. Saudi Arabia and Iran are prime examples. Fred On Aug 25, 2006, at 7:28 AM, Steve Ravet wrote > Farming is petroleum intensive work, with diesel fuel for equipment, > petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides. Then add the fact that > ethanol can't go in a pipeline and has to be hauled everywhere by > truck. > If you have to burn a gallon of diesel to make and transport a > gallon of > ethanol then it's not very "hydrocarbon effective" either. E85 is > about > corporate welfare, and farming welfare queens. > > --steve From niche at iinet.net.au Fri Aug 25 13:44:54 2006 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 02:44:54 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <9E35FB4C-BE1C-447B-94E0-A8FDBA24C85E@comcast.net> References: <9E35FB4C-BE1C-447B-94E0-A8FDBA24C85E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060826024232.026d0ae0@iinet.net.au>> afaik the production of ethanol is not that efficient and it takes lots of petro energy to even harvest it, so ethanol production is equivalent to sizable petroleum loss :( Of course we could use solar panels to drive the tractors and hydrogen to heat the still, but then wouldnt that be the height of thermodynamic absurdity if we didnt understand economics... Mike At 02:26 AM 8/26/06, you wrote: >This "pipeline" factor is new to me. Why can't ethanol be piped? >Could it be if pre-mixed with petro? > >I don't see much mention in this thread of the geo-political >ramifications of using greater and greater amounts of ethanol. For >me, on balance, the upside is that less and less $ goes to petro >producing countries that turn around and funnel some of that wealth >into Islamic extremist organizations. Saudi Arabia and Iran are prime >examples. > >Fred > > >On Aug 25, 2006, at 7:28 AM, Steve Ravet wrote >>Farming is petroleum intensive work, with diesel fuel for equipment, >>petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides. Then add the fact that >>ethanol can't go in a pipeline and has to be hauled everywhere by >>truck. >>If you have to burn a gallon of diesel to make and transport a >>gallon of >>ethanol then it's not very "hydrocarbon effective" either. E85 is >>about >>corporate welfare, and farming welfare queens. >> >>--steve > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From A6intruder at myo-p.com Fri Aug 25 14:39:20 2006 From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:39:20 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <9E35FB4C-BE1C-447B-94E0-A8FDBA24C85E@comcast.net> Message-ID: Ethanol absorbs too much water and ends up being pretty corrosive in pipelines. If you read up on what the ethanol camp has to say, they claim to have improved the energy exchange in production so that it is a positive process. Personally I think ethanol is a transitional fuel and will eventually be replaced by butanol as the long term replacement for a percentage of gasoline. There is a modified fermentation process being finalized by several research groups that can make butanol from biomas as opposed to needing high cost grain. BP & Dupont are pursuing this technology in the UK. The beauty of butanol is that it has very similar characteristics to typical gasoline; doesn't absorb much water, about 90% the energy content per gallon as gasoline, high octane rating (I think 94 or so?) and can be used within the existing pipeline-tank infrastructure without modification. Currently only available as an industrial solvent derived from oil, butanol will have to be made from any of the various biomass sources to be viable. Whatever wins long term market acceptance I would rather make some Midwestern farmer and his agro-industry marketing chain wealthy than keep supplying oil dollars to nations and people that don't like us. I don't think we will ever get away from oil entirely in our lifetime but we can certainly change how much we get from where by using some of these alternatives. Bottom line, the market will determine... Dan Nicoson -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Frederick Trient Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 2:26 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? This "pipeline" factor is new to me. Why can't ethanol be piped? Could it be if pre-mixed with petro? I don't see much mention in this thread of the geo-political ramifications of using greater and greater amounts of ethanol. For me, on balance, the upside is that less and less $ goes to petro producing countries that turn around and funnel some of that wealth into Islamic extremist organizations. Saudi Arabia and Iran are prime examples. Fred On Aug 25, 2006, at 7:28 AM, Steve Ravet wrote > Farming is petroleum intensive work, with diesel fuel for equipment, > petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides. Then add the fact that > ethanol can't go in a pipeline and has to be hauled everywhere by > truck. > If you have to burn a gallon of diesel to make and transport a > gallon of > ethanol then it's not very "hydrocarbon effective" either. E85 is > about > corporate welfare, and farming welfare queens. > > --steve _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From klaus at Innovate-tech.com Fri Aug 25 16:57:53 2006 From: klaus at Innovate-tech.com (Klaus Allmendinger) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:57:53 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? References: Message-ID: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2369C43@ITFC1.innovate.com> Hi, I have done some research recently into ethanol as fuel. From the various studies and test results the conclusion I came to is that ethanol is a superior fuel for engines compared to gasoline, PROVIDED the engines are designed around ethanol fuel. 1. Production efficiency To produce (and transport) 1 BTU of ethanol energy requires the expenditure of ~0.6 BTU in input energy. About half of that is in other fuels like fossil fuel. The other half comes from electrical energy, which can be nuclear, water, wind and also fossil. 1 BTU of gasoline requires ~0.2 BTU in drilling, transportation and refining. The difference is that gasoline puts out a total of 1.2BTU worth of greenhouse gases vs. Ethanol at 0.6 BTU (well to wheel). The CO2 from burning ethanol is taken up by the plants in next years crop and therefore doesn't contribute to atmospheric CO2 total. The 0.6 BTU is with todays technology producing from corn. Within 3-5 years, the yield producing ethanol from other biomass and using newer distillation technologies the expected expenditure is predicted to drop to about 0.2-0.3 BTU. This is comparable to gasoline. Gasoline prices are expected to rise in the future because it is a finite resource. Ethanol prices will continue to fall in the future because the cost is a function of technical efficiency, not of scarcity. 2. Engine efficiency Gasoline engines convert about 25 to 30% of the energy contained in the fuel into available power. With the superior combustion properties of ethanol, used right, 40-42% efficiency can be achieved. This requires high level turbocharging, cooled EGR and direct injection. These techniques are not used today in production automobiles to the required extent because they can't be done "flex", only with ethanol or methanol. See here: http://lfee.mit.edu/public/LFEE%202006-01%20RP.pdf and here: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentations/epa-fev-isaf-no55.pdf 3. Production feedstock availability Some recent breakthroughs in custom enzymes allow the production of ethanol from other biomass, like perennial switchgrass. This allows to use much more available biomass than just corn kernels, sugarcane or sugar beets. In fact a large amount of biomass that currently goes into land-fills can be used for ethanol production. Once cellulose is broken down with these enzymes it is more efficient to produce ethanol than higher alcohols (higher BTU yield). 4. Greenhouse gas production The higher hydrogen/carbon ratio of ethanol or methanol means that a lot of the energy is produced from the combustion of hydrogen vs carbon. This lowers the tailpipe emissions of CO2 and CO dramatically for the same energy unit. Also a comparison based purely on BTU (thermal) content as a basis for milage prediction is unfair to these lower alcohols. As mentioned before, they produce more gas molecules as combustion product and therefore higher cylinder pressure with lower BTU input. After all, we are running internal combustion engines, not steam engines, where a BTU comparison would be fair. The lower flame-front temperatures of burning alcohol means also that less nitrous oxides are produced. 5. Pipeline compatibility It is not a matter of ethanol corroding the pipelines, but because ethanol is hygroscopic, it can take up water pockets and crud that has accumulated over time in those pipelines. This means running ethanol through them would clean them out, but the ethanol at the other side won't be usable until the line is clean. 6. Tax subsidies The oil companies have gotten over the years far more in indirect and direct tax subsidies (exploration writeoffs for example) than has been put total into agriculture. Despite that, of every dollar you spend at the gas pump a large percentage goes to places that use that money to try to kill us. I don't think that is money wisely spent by us. I'd rather spend that money so that it goes back into the US economy. 7. Propanol, Butanol and other higher alcohols Yes, butanol, partly because of its lower hydrogen/carbon ratio, behaves much closer to gasoline in an engine. But also, because of that it also does not have the additional advantages that the lower alcohols have in raising engine efficiency. Just my $0.02 worth. Regards, Klaus ________________________________ From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org on behalf of Daniel Nicoson Sent: Fri 8/25/2006 12:39 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? Ethanol absorbs too much water and ends up being pretty corrosive in pipelines. If you read up on what the ethanol camp has to say, they claim to have improved the energy exchange in production so that it is a positive process. Personally I think ethanol is a transitional fuel and will eventually be replaced by butanol as the long term replacement for a percentage of gasoline. There is a modified fermentation process being finalized by several research groups that can make butanol from biomas as opposed to needing high cost grain. BP & Dupont are pursuing this technology in the UK. The beauty of butanol is that it has very similar characteristics to typical gasoline; doesn't absorb much water, about 90% the energy content per gallon as gasoline, high octane rating (I think 94 or so?) and can be used within the existing pipeline-tank infrastructure without modification. Currently only available as an industrial solvent derived from oil, butanol will have to be made from any of the various biomass sources to be viable. Whatever wins long term market acceptance I would rather make some Midwestern farmer and his agro-industry marketing chain wealthy than keep supplying oil dollars to nations and people that don't like us. I don't think we will ever get away from oil entirely in our lifetime but we can certainly change how much we get from where by using some of these alternatives. Bottom line, the market will determine... Dan Nicoson -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Frederick Trient Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 2:26 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? This "pipeline" factor is new to me. Why can't ethanol be piped? Could it be if pre-mixed with petro? I don't see much mention in this thread of the geo-political ramifications of using greater and greater amounts of ethanol. For me, on balance, the upside is that less and less $ goes to petro producing countries that turn around and funnel some of that wealth into Islamic extremist organizations. Saudi Arabia and Iran are prime examples. Fred On Aug 25, 2006, at 7:28 AM, Steve Ravet wrote > Farming is petroleum intensive work, with diesel fuel for equipment, > petroleum based fertilizers and pesticides. Then add the fact that > ethanol can't go in a pipeline and has to be hauled everywhere by > truck. > If you have to burn a gallon of diesel to make and transport a > gallon of > ethanol then it's not very "hydrocarbon effective" either. E85 is > about > corporate welfare, and farming welfare queens. > > --steve _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From donsauman at cythera.net Fri Aug 25 18:54:00 2006 From: donsauman at cythera.net (Don Sauman) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 07:54:00 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <0C323EFBDBDBDD4697BD0C0F2D745C525E7B6E@iu-mssg-mbx101.ads.iu.edu> References: <0C323EFBDBDBDD4697BD0C0F2D745C525E7B6E@iu-mssg-mbx101.ads.iu.edu> Message-ID: <44EF8D98.8080209@cythera.net> I recently bought a 1999 Jeep XJ Cherokee with the 2.5lt Turbo Diesel. The performance is excellent. I have been using this as what you might call a Town and Country car rather than a serious off-roader. The economy around town is around 10.9 litres/100km. Because the torque on take off produced some interest effects I replaced the Command Trac transfer box with a Select Trac box so that I could have full time 4WD on the bitumen. What weather handling has also benefited from this. I am now using a 20% bio-diesel blend from the pump with no detectable change in performance. I like this arrangement and am in the process of fitting a 6.2lt Chevy V8 diesel into my 1983 Jeep Wagon. Also, at a time when diesel here is about 138? per lt, I have bought some privately brewed and processed bio-diesel for 50? per lt. I am going to do some tests before I use this seriously. Don Frey, Richard K wrote: >I am a big fan of diesel vehicles. Starting in 2007 (4 months away) the >US government has mandated the sole use of low sulfur diesel fuels. I >have been told by people in the know that this will open the flood gates >for European manufacturers of diesel vehicles and we will see many >highly successful diesel designs on our shores. Due to the lower sulfur >fuels their current modern designs will soon meet our emission standards >and no further expense will be required to bring these vehicles to the >US. BMW diesel sedans actually out perform their gas counterparts. If >you follow LMS (or whatever they call themselves these days) racing, you >have seen the amazing success of the tdi audi diesel in that racing >series, all designed to drum up interest in VW/audi diesels here in the >states. I predict you'll be able to purchase super efficient econoboxes >up to performance sedans. The fact that the jeep will have a European >origin diesel in it soon is strong evidence of the change afoot. They >will probably arrive with the low sulfur fuel. I read somewhere that >70% of new cars sold in Europe are now diesels. Don't quote me on that >one. > >Now, iF you're into homebrew, there is always French fry fat at a cost >of about 70 cents a gallon to produce at home into a viable, although >not perfect, alternative source for serious fuel savings. > >Modern diesels are amazing designs and should be seriously looked at. > >rick frey > > >-----Original Message----- >From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] >On Behalf Of Tim M >Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 8:01 AM >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > >Interesting. > > >I am also considering a diesel vehicle since I do some occasional >towing, but the diesel offerings here in the states are limited. I am >trying to stay level headed about it and not just go get the >Duramax/allison 2500 truck... Anybody know when the 3.0L Jeep Cherokee >diesel is coming out? (although I am guessing they are going to be very >proud of this vehicle) > >Thanks, >Tim > > >page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > -- Don Sauman Cythera Communication 35 Asteroid Way Carlisle 6101 Western Australia P: 08 9361 0337 F: 08 9361 0581 M: 0427 389 547 From A6intruder at myo-p.com Fri Aug 25 20:26:27 2006 From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 21:26:27 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2369C43@ITFC1.innovate.com> Message-ID: Klaus, I am curious of your source of the #4 passage below. I think your science is somewhat flawed. I do agree that any normal engine will maximize it's efficiency by configuring the engine to take advantage of the higher octane available. This usually means a higher compression ratio that will allow better fuel efficiency. I question the issue of not comparing the BTU in versus work out. That is how you determine efficiency, how much energy out versus the amount input. You have to compare apples to apples. I think what you really mean to say is that the layman's measure of efficiency miles per gallon is really an economic measure of work out (miles driven) per dollar input. Actual thermodynamic efficiency would entail comparing the BTU input of the fuel compared to the work output (converted to BTU for direct comparison). For long term success in the marketplace, the "layman's efficiency" is what will really count (it of course is determined by thermodynamic efficiency and the price of various fuels). The long term success of ethanol or any other alternative fuel will boil down to its cost relative to good old gasoline. I curious what you mean by saying the ethanol will produce more gas molecules with lower BTU input resulting in a higher pressure? I think you are trying to say that the ethanol is more powerful in an ICE with lower BTU input? That's just not true. I do appreciate the clarification on the pipeline compatibility issue. It sounds like BP could have used a bunch of ethanol going through its pipelines on the north slope of Alaska the last few years... Take care, Dan Nicoson -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Klaus Allmendinger Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 5:58 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? 4. Greenhouse gas production The higher hydrogen/carbon ratio of ethanol or methanol means that a lot of the energy is produced from the combustion of hydrogen vs carbon. This lowers the tailpipe emissions of CO2 and CO dramatically for the same energy unit. Also a comparison based purely on BTU (thermal) content as a basis for milage prediction is unfair to these lower alcohols. As mentioned before, they produce more gas molecules as combustion product and therefore higher cylinder pressure with lower BTU input. After all, we are running internal combustion engines, not steam engines, where a BTU comparison would be fair. The lower flame-front temperatures of burning alcohol means also that less nitrous oxides are produced. Just my $0.02 worth. Regards, Klaus From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Fri Aug 25 21:18:41 2006 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 21:18:41 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Klaus Allmendinger > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 4:58 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? > > Hi, > > I have done some research recently into ethanol as fuel. From > the various studies and test results the conclusion I came to > is that ethanol is a superior fuel for engines compared to > gasoline, PROVIDED the engines are designed around ethanol fuel. > > 1. Production efficiency > To produce (and transport) 1 BTU of ethanol energy requires > the expenditure of ~0.6 BTU in input energy. About half of > that is in other fuels like fossil fuel. The other half comes > from electrical energy, which can be nuclear, water, wind and > also fossil. 1 BTU of gasoline requires ~0.2 BTU in drilling, > transportation and refining. The difference is that gasoline > puts out a total of 1.2BTU worth of greenhouse gases vs. > Ethanol at 0.6 BTU (well to wheel). The CO2 from burning > ethanol is taken up by the plants in next years crop and > therefore doesn't contribute to atmospheric CO2 total. The > 0.6 BTU is with todays technology producing from corn. Within > 3-5 years, the yield producing ethanol from other biomass and > using newer distillation technologies the expected > expenditure is predicted to drop to about 0.2-0.3 BTU. This > is comparable to gasoline. Gasoline prices are expected to > rise in the future because it is a finite resource. Ethanol > prices will continue to fall in the future because the cost > is a function of technical efficiency, not of scarcity. If you don't mind, I'd like to see the sources you have studied, because what I've read is far in the opposite direction, like 7 gallons of petroleum to produce 1 gallon of ethanol. All resources are finite. The price of most fall with time, and the availability of most increase with time, due to increased efficiency in use and production. The price of oil and gasoline would certainly follow this trend if they weren't interfered with politically. Human production of CO2 at about 5 gigatons per year is a tiny fraction of the CO2 already in the atmosphere (over 700 GT), and dwarfed by the carbon transport mechanisms between atmosphere, surface ocean, marine biosphere, land biosphere, and deep ocean. --steve -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. From klaus at Innovate-tech.com Fri Aug 25 21:37:27 2006 From: klaus at Innovate-tech.com (Klaus Allmendinger) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:37:27 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? References: Message-ID: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2369C44@ITFC1.innovate.com> Hi, Yes, you are right, you compare BTU (work) output vs. input. What I meant was that the engine efficiency is higher with ethanol than with gasoline. This means you can't assume the same efficiency number. Or expressed differently, with 40% lower BTU content you don't neccessarily have 40% lower mileage, as that assumes constant efficiency. As to the more moles of combustion product, that is very simple if you use the O2 in the charge as initial metric. One O2 molecule can produce one CO2 molecule from the carbon combustion (assuming stoichiometric combustion). But it can produce 2 H2O molecules from H2 combustion. A higher hydrogen/carbon ratio means the available moles of O2 are converted into more resultant gas volume (or pressure as in a fixed volume like a comb. chamber). This is one of the causes of higher engine efficiency with ethanol (and even higher with methanol). Hence, even though ethanol has lower BTU content, the cylinder pressure (and therefore torque) produced is not proportionally lower. Again, another way of expressing raised efficiency. What all these discussions don't take into account is that we have gone about as far as we can push engines on gasoline regarding efficiency. Lean burn stratified charge has been tried with a little success, HCCI is still in the experimental stage. With ethanol these boundaries are by far not yet reached. Ethanol can tolerate a wider mixture range, both on the lean as on the rich side than gasoline. It can also tolerate much higher EGR dilution than gasoline. Engine efficiency in part throttle operation on gasoline is 10-15% or lower because of the lower dynamic compression ratio with intake vacuum. Throttling by EGR, thereby essentially lowering the O2 content of the end gas, allows to raise that part throttle efficiency quite a lot. But that is only possible with highly dilution tolerant fuel. Flame front speed is higher (although initial kernel delay is longer) which means even about the same ign. advance can be used, it produces less negative torque from pressure rise BTDC and so on. ________________________________ From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org on behalf of Daniel Nicoson Sent: Fri 8/25/2006 6:26 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? Klaus, I am curious of your source of the #4 passage below. I think your science is somewhat flawed. I do agree that any normal engine will maximize it's efficiency by configuring the engine to take advantage of the higher octane available. This usually means a higher compression ratio that will allow better fuel efficiency. I question the issue of not comparing the BTU in versus work out. That is how you determine efficiency, how much energy out versus the amount input. You have to compare apples to apples. I think what you really mean to say is that the layman's measure of efficiency miles per gallon is really an economic measure of work out (miles driven) per dollar input. Actual thermodynamic efficiency would entail comparing the BTU input of the fuel compared to the work output (converted to BTU for direct comparison). For long term success in the marketplace, the "layman's efficiency" is what will really count (it of course is determined by thermodynamic efficiency and the price of various fuels). The long term success of ethanol or any other alternative fuel will boil down to its cost relative to good old gasoline. I curious what you mean by saying the ethanol will produce more gas molecules with lower BTU input resulting in a higher pressure? I think you are trying to say that the ethanol is more powerful in an ICE with lower BTU input? That's just not true. I do appreciate the clarification on the pipeline compatibility issue. It sounds like BP could have used a bunch of ethanol going through its pipelines on the north slope of Alaska the last few years... Take care, Dan Nicoson -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Klaus Allmendinger Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 5:58 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? 4. Greenhouse gas production The higher hydrogen/carbon ratio of ethanol or methanol means that a lot of the energy is produced from the combustion of hydrogen vs carbon. This lowers the tailpipe emissions of CO2 and CO dramatically for the same energy unit. Also a comparison based purely on BTU (thermal) content as a basis for milage prediction is unfair to these lower alcohols. As mentioned before, they produce more gas molecules as combustion product and therefore higher cylinder pressure with lower BTU input. After all, we are running internal combustion engines, not steam engines, where a BTU comparison would be fair. The lower flame-front temperatures of burning alcohol means also that less nitrous oxides are produced. Just my $0.02 worth. Regards, Klaus _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From klaus at Innovate-tech.com Fri Aug 25 21:58:13 2006 From: klaus at Innovate-tech.com (Klaus Allmendinger) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:58:13 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? References: Message-ID: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2369C45@ITFC1.innovate.com> Steve, I will be back in the office end of next week (I'm on vacation right now). I will post the sources (if I remember). 7 gallons per gallon of ethanol is FAR higher than even the most pessimistic study found. The number I used is from a very thorough study by the US department of Energy using data from 2000-2004 for production yields, fertilizer usage and fertillizer production yields. Independent other studies came to about the same conclusion. Piementel et al have done the most pessimistic studies, but used input data from the 70's for part of their calculations. ________________________________ If you don't mind, I'd like to see the sources you have studied, because what I've read is far in the opposite direction, like 7 gallons of petroleum to produce 1 gallon of ethanol. All resources are finite. The price of most fall with time, and the availability of most increase with time, due to increased efficiency in use and production. The price of oil and gasoline would certainly follow this trend if they weren't interfered with politically. Human production of CO2 at about 5 gigatons per year is a tiny fraction of the CO2 already in the atmosphere (over 700 GT), and dwarfed by the carbon transport mechanisms between atmosphere, surface ocean, marine biosphere, land biosphere, and deep ocean. --steve -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au Fri Aug 25 22:02:57 2006 From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:02:57 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608261102.57398@death.2.spammers> On Saturday 26 August 2006 10:18, Steve Ravet wrote: > Klaus Allmendinger wrote: > > I have done some research recently into ethanol as fuel. From > > the various studies and test results the conclusion I came to > > is that ethanol is a superior fuel for engines compared to > > gasoline, PROVIDED the engines are designed around ethanol fuel. [snip] > If you don't mind, I'd like to see the sources you have studied, > because what I've read is far in the opposite direction, like 7 > gallons of petroleum to produce 1 gallon of ethanol. I doubt that that is the case in alcohol economies such as Brazil where much of the processing occurs on site using "waste" products such as the cane straw to fuel the burners for distillation. Once the initial distillate is produced, a much smaller volume and mass has to be transported for further refinement and distribution. It requires special consideration of the whole process. There is research into direct production of ethanol by microbes that would thrive in salt water. All the oceans could be potential aquaculture areas, but more likely tropical and sub-tropical coastal waters and inland salt lakes. At the very least, that could make swimming in the sea more enjoyable. :-) The main reason for that approach is to reduce the pressure on land use. Hundred of millions of people live in flood-prone areas and as global population increases requring more land to grow food, available land for fuel-cropping diminishes. It requires approximately a hectare of land to produce a nett of 1000 litres of biodiesel using reasonably high-yield crops; more if you grow sunflowers. That's enough to run a "small" car for a year. A square kilometre would fuel 100 such cars for a year. The same land can feed a lot more people. That's why you have to compromise. > All resources are finite. The price of most fall with time, and the > availability of most increase with time, due to increased efficiency in > use and production. The price of oil and gasoline would certainly > follow this trend if they weren't interfered with politically. Your assumption about reduced demand doesn't take into account the 500 million or so more cars that will be on the roads in Asia over the next two decades. Consider it a doubling of present demand. Political means can be used to depress the demand for fuel, especially in China. High tax rates, such as in the UK where the nett rate on fuel is well over 100% of the "crude cost", will invariable reduce the amount of discretionary travel by personal motor vehicle and therefore total demand. The dynamic between demand and price is well known but in a free economy, remains a dynamic where the slightest perturbation can cause rapid excursions from the "norm". A primary driver of crude price (before governments apply duties, excise and taxes by any other name) is demand vs perceived availability. Especially so for high-volume commodities. As alternative fuel options become available, it will tend to depress prices. If dependency is eliminated, then the price will float to nearer actual production costs, plus/minus the remaining market pressures. > Human production of CO2 at about 5 gigatons per year is a tiny fraction > of the CO2 already in the atmosphere (over 700 GT), and dwarfed by the > carbon transport mechanisms between atmosphere, surface ocean, marine > biosphere, land biosphere, and deep ocean. Shhh... you're taking the hot air out of an argument. :-) Next you'll point out that water vapour provides 90% of the "greenhouse" in which we've evolved and need to survive. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because X against HTML mail | they threaten." / \ and postings | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD. From klaus at Innovate-tech.com Fri Aug 25 22:30:37 2006 From: klaus at Innovate-tech.com (Klaus Allmendinger) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 20:30:37 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? References: Message-ID: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2369C46@ITFC1.innovate.com> If you don't mind, I'd like to see the sources you have studied, because what I've read is far in the opposite direction, like 7 gallons of petroleum to produce 1 gallon of ethanol. Steve, something just occured to me: Could the 7 gallons of petroleum figure per gallon of ethanol come from the 1920's prohibition era? I could be very well be that that much fuel was used by the booze-runners per gallon of moonshine at the speakeasy. :-) From jrmac at shaw.ca Fri Aug 25 22:37:28 2006 From: jrmac at shaw.ca (Joe Macmurchie) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 20:37:28 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2369C46@ITFC1.innovate.com> Message-ID: <004301c6c8c0$f4671470$0e01a8c0@Recroom.local> Ah ha! So this is where you spend you vacation. -Joemac -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Klaus Allmendinger Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 8:31 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? If you don't mind, I'd like to see the sources you have studied, because what I've read is far in the opposite direction, like 7 gallons of petroleum to produce 1 gallon of ethanol. Steve, something just occured to me: Could the 7 gallons of petroleum figure per gallon of ethanol come from the 1920's prohibition era? I could be very well be that that much fuel was used by the booze-runners per gallon of moonshine at the speakeasy. :-) From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Aug 26 16:01:06 2006 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060826210106.38549.qmail@web32210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Steve Ravet wrote: > All resources are finite. The price of most fall > with time, and the availability of most increase > with time, due to increased efficiency in use and > production. The price of oil and gasoline would > certainly follow this trend if they weren't > interfered with politically. In Kuwait, I believe it is government mandate that fuel is sold basically at cost withint the borders of the country. Last time I checked, gasoline there was about 39 CENTS per US gallon. 'Nuff said. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au Sat Aug 26 19:51:45 2006 From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 08:51:45 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <20060826210106.38549.qmail@web32210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060826210106.38549.qmail@web32210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200608270851.45289@death.2.spammers> On Sunday 27 August 2006 05:01, Adam Wade wrote: > Steve Ravet wrote: > > All resources are finite. The price of most fall > > with time, and the availability of most increase > > with time, due to increased efficiency in use and > > production. The price of oil and gasoline would > > certainly follow this trend if they weren't > > interfered with politically. > In Kuwait, I believe it is government mandate that > fuel is sold basically at cost withint the borders of > the country. Last time I checked, gasoline there was > about 39 CENTS per US gallon. Perhaps this is more akin to the price of bread if you're working in the bakery. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because X against HTML mail | they threaten." / \ and postings | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD. From klaus at Innovate-tech.com Sat Aug 26 21:45:31 2006 From: klaus at Innovate-tech.com (Klaus Allmendinger) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:45:31 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? References: <20060826210106.38549.qmail@web32210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2369C47@ITFC1.innovate.com> In Kuwait, I believe it is government mandate that fuel is sold basically at cost withint the borders of the country. Last time I checked, gasoline there was about 39 CENTS per US gallon. That just means that in Kuwait gasoline is government subsidized. With crude trading at ~$70.-/barrel last I checked, and at 42 gallons per barrel, what the crude is "worth" in the current market is $1.66 per gallon. It's similar to diamonds. They are worth a lot of money because somebody is willing to pay that. From a material standpoint they should be extremely cheap because they are after all just hunks of carbon. With gas prices here in SoCal around $3.20 /gallon it means the enduser price of the processed product is about 2 times the raw material cost for the manufacturer. That is actually much lower than in most other industries. From boucherj at prodigy.net Sat Aug 26 21:49:35 2006 From: boucherj at prodigy.net (Joe Boucher) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:49:35 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] More GM MPFI V-6 questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: First, Bob and Tomas, thanks very much for the great answers. A couple of the best answers I have ever received from one of these lists. Very concise and to the point. The wife asks why a tear was rolling down from my eye. When I explained, when rolled her eyes and walked off. I'm still unclear about a couple of things. In a previous question, Brendan sent this link http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM+AF8-DIS.htm showing the ignition module needing a crank sensor as an input to the DIS module. The model year application of this configuration isn't on the paper. Bob, you said the stock reluctor in the Porsche worked. So, you used the distributor? And Tomas, you drilled six more holes in your harmonic balancer for a total of seven holes, including the offset hole to signal number one cylinder? But you will need to move the sensor 10 degrees advanced to assist in starting. My understanding is there is another box besides the 749 which is similar to the 749 hardware and can use the 749 prom, but needs the wiring switched around a bit. Is this true? And last but not least, can any 7727 be converted to a turbo convig with the switch of a prom? Thanks again for the excellent responses. Joe B. From llemoine at gmail.com Sat Aug 26 22:33:17 2006 From: llemoine at gmail.com (Lee M. Lemoine) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:33:17 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] More GM MPFI V-6 questions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can vouch for a '7730 running the turbo code on a GM 3.1 V6 -- as far as i'm aware if your going to use a DIS system (and use the distributor shaft only for a crank / sync pulse) the DIS module would handle the spark advance. I'm not sure how it works on non-dIS GM vehicles as i've never tweaked one with a distributor, at least not yet... As far as i can remember the '727 and '730 are revisions of one another. The one i speak of (The 730) is non-weatherproof and was mounted inside the car. (93 chevy cavalier) PS, on my engine, the Crank position sensor plugs into the DIS module, and the DIS module will automatically handle 10 degrees of spark on its own from what i remember, theres a pin that the ecm shorts to enable the ecm to control timing, i believe thats above 400 rpms it gets enabled... -- Lee On 8/26/06, Joe Boucher wrote: > > First, Bob and Tomas, thanks very much for the great answers. A couple > of the best answers I have ever received from one of these lists. Very > concise and to the point. The wife asks why a tear was rolling down from my > eye. When I explained, when rolled her eyes and walked off. > > I'm still unclear about a couple of things. In a previous question, > Brendan sent this link http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM+AF8-DIS.htmshowing the ignition module needing a crank sensor as an input to the DIS > module. The model year application of this configuration isn't on the > paper. > > Bob, you said the stock reluctor in the Porsche worked. So, you used the > distributor? > > And Tomas, you drilled six more holes in your harmonic balancer for a > total of seven holes, including the offset hole to signal number one > cylinder? But you will need to move the sensor 10 degrees advanced to > assist in starting. > > My understanding is there is another box besides the 749 which is similar > to the 749 hardware and can use the 749 prom, but needs the wiring switched > around a bit. Is this true? > > And last but not least, can any 7727 be converted to a turbo convig with > the switch of a prom? > > Thanks again for the excellent responses. > > Joe B. > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > -- Sincerely, Lee M. Lemoine KB1NQI - Amateur Radio http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/ '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!) From liberty1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 26 23:10:55 2006 From: liberty1 at gmail.com (Bobby Yates Emory) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 00:10:55 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Is E85 worth it? In-Reply-To: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2369C47@ITFC1.innovate.com> References: <20060826210106.38549.qmail@web32210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2369C47@ITFC1.innovate.com> Message-ID: <54b6188b0608262110t576c73f9h1ff84b2f69f8fcf5@mail.gmail.com> Klaus, You are talking about opportunity costs. Adam is talking about the accounting costs. To extract and process a gallon of gas costs the state owned oil company 39 cents. If they sell it to one of their citizens, they give up the $1.66 that they could sell it to your favorite oil company for. On their accounting books, they only have the 39 cents. Now we know how bad they are ripping us off. Bobby On 8/26/06, Klaus Allmendinger wrote: > > In Kuwait, I believe it is government mandate that > fuel is sold basically at cost withint the borders of > the country. Last time I checked, gasoline there was > about 39 CENTS per US gallon. > > That just means that in Kuwait gasoline is government subsidized. With > crude trading at ~$70.-/barrel last I checked, and at 42 gallons per barrel, > what the crude is "worth" in the current market is $1.66 per gallon. > It's similar to diamonds. They are worth a lot of money because somebody > is willing to pay that. From a material standpoint they should be extremely > cheap because they are after all just hunks of carbon. > With gas prices here in SoCal around $3.20 /gallon it means the enduser > price of the processed product is about 2 times the raw material cost for > the manufacturer. That is actually much lower than in most other industries. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > -- Toward freedom, Bobby Yates Emory From niche at iinet.net.au Sun Aug 27 06:57:26 2006 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:57:26 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Wide Band Sensor - recent experiences ? Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060827194739.026a7740@iinet.net.au>> Hi Chaps, Exploring upgrading the EFI in my vehicle to handle other liquid fuels and one of the issues is a wide band oxygen sensor, so I'm asking the following questions from anyone on this group in respect of your recent experiences with any aftermarket commercial products etc 1. Overall cost of a sensor and driver board to either use it as a tuning aid or for dash display ? 2. Long term reliability of most recent type of sensors ? 3. Resistance of contemporary sensors to handle combustion byproducts from fuels such as ethanol, isopropanol, methane, LPG, methanol etc in terms of reliability, calibration etc ? 4. Feasability of using the wideband sensor in an EFI controller that functions close to wide open throttle or perhaps higher load than appears that the normal narrow band systems function ? Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Sun Aug 27 10:56:09 2006 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 08:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] Wide Band Sensor - recent experiences ? In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060827194739.026a7740@iinet.net.au>> Message-ID: <20060827155609.55878.qmail@web36705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIke.... see if this helps... 1) about $300-$500 for a good setup with good O2 3) have heard of nothing on the GP board.... and they use alky and N02 4) if the O2 bung is placed far enought away from exhaust head, some leave it in all the time and use 4th wire for pcm jim Mike wrote: Hi Chaps, Exploring upgrading the EFI in my vehicle to handle other liquid fuels and one of the issues is a wide band oxygen sensor, so I'm asking the following questions from anyone on this group in respect of your recent experiences with any aftermarket commercial products etc 1. Overall cost of a sensor and driver board to either use it as a tuning aid or for dash display ? 2. Long term reliability of most recent type of sensors ? 3. Resistance of contemporary sensors to handle combustion byproducts from fuels such as ethanol, isopropanol, methane, LPG, methanol etc in terms of reliability, calibration etc ? 4. Feasability of using the wideband sensor in an EFI controller that functions close to wide open throttle or perhaps higher load than appears that the normal narrow band systems function ? Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. From jayrabe at gmail.com Sun Aug 27 11:52:44 2006 From: jayrabe at gmail.com (Jay Rabe) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:52:44 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel injector limits? In-Reply-To: <002701c6c27a$3e14ff80$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> References: <002701c6c27a$3e14ff80$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> Message-ID: You can run an injector at 85% all day every day. Good injectors will never wear out, they might clog or get gummed up but thats it. Some style injectors are not made well (like original 90's cadillac injectors) their coils are wound with a crappily coated coil wire. Over lots of time the coating wears thin and shorts the injector out. They recomend only running at 85% to give you some backup fuel. You don't want to tune for 100% duty cycle at a warm temp, then it gets cold out and you don't have the fuel for the more dense/cold air. You should have no problem tuning an injector under 30lbs/hr to idle smooth and pass emissions if necessary. From atomic at extendwireless.net Sun Aug 27 22:14:32 2006 From: atomic at extendwireless.net (Charles Woock) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 22:14:32 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Wide Band Sensor - recent experiences ? References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060827194739.026a7740@iinet.net.au>> Message-ID: <006c01c6ca50$155e16c0$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> You can get a good O2 sensor and the LC1 to convert the signal to narrow band to use with a stock ecm for less than $200. goto moates.net and look at the LC1. This is basically a wire it and leave it in place. You will need to check if the O2 can handle other fuels though. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 6:57 AM Subject: [Diy_efi] Wide Band Sensor - recent experiences ? > Hi Chaps, > > Exploring upgrading the EFI in my vehicle to handle other liquid > fuels and one of the issues is a wide band oxygen sensor, so I'm > asking the following questions from anyone on this group in > respect of your recent experiences with any aftermarket commercial > products etc > > 1. Overall cost of a sensor and driver board to either use it > as a tuning aid or for dash display ? > > 2. Long term reliability of most recent type of sensors ? > > 3. Resistance of contemporary sensors to handle combustion > byproducts from fuels such as ethanol, isopropanol, methane, > LPG, methanol etc in terms of reliability, calibration etc ? > > 4. Feasability of using the wideband sensor in an EFI controller > that functions close to wide open throttle or perhaps higher load > than appears that the normal narrow band systems function ? > > > > Regards from > > > Mike > Perth, Western Australia > VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! > Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars > http://niche.iinet.net.au > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From atomic at extendwireless.net Sun Aug 27 22:19:04 2006 From: atomic at extendwireless.net (Charles Woock) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 22:19:04 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Wide Band Sensor - recent experiences ? References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060827194739.026a7740@iinet.net.au>> Message-ID: <007301c6ca50$b7c0d420$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE> Also, goto thirdgen.org. http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/ It appears to me that you tell the ecm what fuel you are running by changing the stoichiometric constant to that of the desired fuel... but you should read all the "stickies" at this site. These guys have got the ecm all figured out. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 6:57 AM Subject: [Diy_efi] Wide Band Sensor - recent experiences ? > Hi Chaps, > > Exploring upgrading the EFI in my vehicle to handle other liquid > fuels and one of the issues is a wide band oxygen sensor, so I'm > asking the following questions from anyone on this group in > respect of your recent experiences with any aftermarket commercial > products etc > > 1. Overall cost of a sensor and driver board to either use it > as a tuning aid or for dash display ? > > 2. Long term reliability of most recent type of sensors ? > > 3. Resistance of contemporary sensors to handle combustion > byproducts from fuels such as ethanol, isopropanol, methane, > LPG, methanol etc in terms of reliability, calibration etc ? > > 4. Feasability of using the wideband sensor in an EFI controller > that functions close to wide open throttle or perhaps higher load > than appears that the normal narrow band systems function ? > > > > Regards from > > > Mike > Perth, Western Australia > VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! > Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars > http://niche.iinet.net.au > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From niche at iinet.net.au Mon Aug 28 01:13:31 2006 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:13:31 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Wide Band Sensor - recent experiences ? In-Reply-To: <20060827155609.55878.qmail@web36705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060827194739.026a7740@iinet.net.au> <20060827155609.55878.qmail@web36705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060828140548.026e6670@iinet.net.au>> Thanks Jim and Chuck for your replies :) To clarify what I am aiming to do:- I'm looking to keep my existing EFI for time being but add the wide band sensor and an "aux EFI" controller principally to allow alternate fuels to be drawn into the engine in concert with the normal EFI operation but have the aux EFI unit shift the AFM cal/output so the main EFI will lean the injectors whilst my add on takes up the slack so to speak. ie. The two EFI controllers wont be in communication except by virtue of the fact the aux EFI unit will 'tamper' with the AFM cal or output sent to the main EFI unit according to the availability of alternate fuel and other conditions (I have a heck of a long list of exceptions and getting longer;) Ideally I'll be looking for supplementing the fuel source with 2 or 3 other liquid fuels which might require some heating (upon flow), containment of vapours, PID type control etc I'd feel rather more comfortable doing this with (one or two) wideband sensors and as it will have a few excursions at close to WOT on those long country trips I'll be interested to see how stable it is and I take your point that having it further down the line prob just before CAT would be best to avoid overheating as I am running at turbo at around 10psi boost... Thanks for the links, dont know what 'GP' is though the third gen forum looks interesting, thanks guys Rgds Mike At 11:56 PM 8/27/06, you wrote: >MIke.... > see if this helps... > 1) about $300-$500 for a good setup with good O2 > 3) have heard of nothing on the GP board.... and they use alky and N02 > 4) if the O2 bung is placed far enought away from exhaust head, some leave it in all the time and use 4th wire for pcm > > jim > >Mike wrote: > Hi Chaps, > >Exploring upgrading the EFI in my vehicle to handle other liquid >fuels and one of the issues is a wide band oxygen sensor, so I'm >asking the following questions from anyone on this group in >respect of your recent experiences with any aftermarket commercial >products etc > >1. Overall cost of a sensor and driver board to either use it >as a tuning aid or for dash display ? > >2. Long term reliability of most recent type of sensors ? > >3. Resistance of contemporary sensors to handle combustion >byproducts from fuels such as ethanol, isopropanol, methane, >LPG, methanol etc in terms of reliability, calibration etc ? > >4. Feasability of using the wideband sensor in an EFI controller >that functions close to wide open throttle or perhaps higher load >than appears that the normal narrow band systems function ? > > > >Regards from > > >Mike >Perth, Western Australia >VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! >Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars >http://niche.iinet.net.au >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From niche at iinet.net.au Mon Aug 28 09:30:50 2006 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:30:50 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Anyone used these DIY wideband kits ? Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060828223034.026a3620@iinet.net.au>> http://techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/kitwb.htm Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From tsokorai at minimania.org Mon Aug 28 09:50:20 2006 From: tsokorai at minimania.org (Tomas J. Sokorai Sch.) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:50:20 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] More GM MPFI V-6 questions. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608281050.21214.tsokorai@minimania.org> On Saturday 26 August 2006 22:49, Joe Boucher wrote: > I'm still unclear about a couple of things. In a previous question, > Brendan sent this link http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/GM_DIS.htm showing the > ignition module needing a crank sensor as an input to the DIS module. The > model year application of this configuration isn't on the paper. Go to the website http://www.smpcorp.com then Catalog Look-Up -> Part Number Look-up , then enter the part number LX-346 (that's the DIS module I used, with the apps listed and photos) The crank sensor is PC7, look it up the same way to see what are the apps for it. > > And Tomas, you drilled six more holes in your harmonic balancer for a total > of seven holes, including the offset hole to signal number one cylinder? Yes, as there was already one hole for the diagnostic TDC sensor, I based the other six holes from that one. So I got the 6+-1 pattern for this ignition. > But you will need to move the sensor 10 degrees advanced to assist in > starting. Yes, It starts semi-OK now, but with some seconds of cranking. I still have that on my "to-do" list, to have perfect starts ;) > > My understanding is there is another box besides the 749 which is similar > to the 749 hardware and can use the 749 prom, but needs the wiring switched > around a bit. Is this true? The 727 & 730 family are just like the 749, but with only one injector driver, so as far as I know, some guys run 749 codes on the 730 & 727. > > And last but not least, can any 7727 be converted to a turbo convig with > the switch of a prom? No need to convert. The 727 came in a stock turbo app. : The 3.1L V6 Turbo Grand Prix. Code mask $8F -- Tomas J. Sokorai Sch. From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Mon Aug 28 16:53:17 2006 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Diy_efi] Wide Band Sensor - recent experiences ? In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060828140548.026e6670@iinet.net.au>> Message-ID: <20060828215318.74287.qmail@web36715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mike... GP is the Grand Prix club.... www.clubgp.com Mike wrote: Thanks Jim and Chuck for your replies :) Thanks for the links, dont know what 'GP' is though the third gen forum looks interesting, thanks guys Rgds Mike --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. From niche at iinet.net.au Tue Aug 29 06:34:08 2006 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:34:08 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Transcript of Aust ABC 7:30 report re CNG for automotive use Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060829193028.0269a350@iinet.net.au>> This was on last night Monday the 28th Aug 2006, http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2006/s1726428.htm Anyone used CNG ? Looks like the cost of compressing the gas from the domestic supply is still less (amortized) than use in a vehicle and in respect of safety concerns, all else being equal. What interests me is some aux EFI system for dual fuel use in line with my previous post re wideband sensors etc Incidentally most of our Perth diesel buses are being converted to CNG and they run so much cleaner and quieter than before :) One would expect that if done properly it would be much cheaper too... Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From donsauman at cythera.net Tue Aug 29 08:48:35 2006 From: donsauman at cythera.net (Don Sauman) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:48:35 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Transcript of Aust ABC 7:30 report re CNG for automotive use In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060829193028.0269a350@iinet.net.au>> References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060829193028.0269a350@iinet.net.au>> Message-ID: <44F445B3.3060205@cythera.net> And Mike, if you compress household gas, there is no excise (an Australian Problem). But I am moving to diesel for access to cheap processed bio-diesel. Cheers Don Mike wrote: >This was on last night Monday the 28th Aug 2006, > >http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2006/s1726428.htm > >Anyone used CNG ? > >Looks like the cost of compressing the gas from the domestic >supply is still less (amortized) than use in a vehicle and in >respect of safety concerns, all else being equal. > >What interests me is some aux EFI system for dual fuel use in line >with my previous post re wideband sensors etc > >Incidentally most of our Perth diesel buses are being converted to CNG >and they run so much cleaner and quieter than before :) One would expect >that if done properly it would be much cheaper too... > > > >Regards from > > >Mike >Perth, Western Australia >VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! >Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars >http://niche.iinet.net.au >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > -- Don Sauman Cythera Communication 35 Asteroid Way Carlisle 6101 Western Australia P: 08 9361 0337 F: 08 9361 0581 M: 0427 389 547 From ebuckler at icehouse.net Tue Aug 29 11:10:20 2006 From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:10:20 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Transcript of Aust ABC 7:30 report re CNG for automotiveuse References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060829193028.0269a350@iinet.net.au>> <44F445B3.3060205@cythera.net> Message-ID: <005b01c6cb85$a0c9dab0$0300a8c0@clive> You chaps done any reading on algae oil? Pretty wild claims, but supposedly sound science behind it. 15,000 gallons of fuel oil (light, not bunker) harvested per 1 (one) acre CO2-fed brack-water (sewage) pond per year. Zounds! Would be interested to hear counter-arguments. Ernie Aboriginal Message (sorry, heh)----- From: "Don Sauman" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Transcript of Aust ABC 7:30 report re CNG for automotiveuse > And Mike, if you compress household gas, there is no excise (an Australian > Problem). But I am moving to diesel for access to cheap processed > bio-diesel. > > Cheers > Don > > Mike wrote: > >>This was on last night Monday the 28th Aug 2006, >> >>http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2006/s1726428.htm >> >>Anyone used CNG ? >> >>Looks like the cost of compressing the gas from the domestic >>supply is still less (amortized) than use in a vehicle and in >>respect of safety concerns, all else being equal. >> >>What interests me is some aux EFI system for dual fuel use in line >>with my previous post re wideband sensors etc >> >>Incidentally most of our Perth diesel buses are being converted to CNG >>and they run so much cleaner and quieter than before :) One would expect >>that if done properly it would be much cheaper too... >> >> >> >>Regards from >> >> >>Mike >>Perth, Western Australia >>VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! >>Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars >>http://niche.iinet.net.au >>_______________________________________________ >>Diy_efi mailing list >>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> >> > > -- > Don Sauman > Cythera Communication > 35 Asteroid Way > Carlisle 6101 > Western Australia > > P: 08 9361 0337 > F: 08 9361 0581 > M: 0427 389 547 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/430 - Release Date: 8/28/2006 > > From niche at iinet.net.au Tue Aug 29 11:41:28 2006 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:41:28 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Transcript of Aust ABC 7:30 report re CNG for automotive use In-Reply-To: <44F445B3.3060205@cythera.net> References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060829193028.0269a350@iinet.net.au> <44F445B3.3060205@cythera.net> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060830004101.02814360@iinet.net.au>> yes true :) Hey - Sawdust is even cheaper - you can charge to cart it away, Rgds Mike At 09:48 PM 8/29/06, you wrote: >And Mike, if you compress household gas, there is no excise (an Australian Problem). But I am moving to diesel for access to cheap processed bio-diesel. > >Cheers >Don > >Mike wrote: > >>This was on last night Monday the 28th Aug 2006, >> >>http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2006/s1726428.htm >> >>Anyone used CNG ? >> >>Looks like the cost of compressing the gas from the domestic >>supply is still less (amortized) than use in a vehicle and in >>respect of safety concerns, all else being equal. >> >>What interests me is some aux EFI system for dual fuel use in line >>with my previous post re wideband sensors etc >> >>Incidentally most of our Perth diesel buses are being converted to CNG >>and they run so much cleaner and quieter than before :) One would expect >>that if done properly it would be much cheaper too... >> >> >> >>Regards from >> >> >>Mike >>Perth, Western Australia >>VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! >>Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars >>http://niche.iinet.net.au >>_______________________________________________ >>Diy_efi mailing list >>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> >> > >-- >Don Sauman >Cythera Communication >35 Asteroid Way >Carlisle 6101 >Western Australia > >P: 08 9361 0337 >F: 08 9361 0581 >M: 0427 389 547 > > > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From boucherj at prodigy.net Tue Aug 29 19:56:31 2006 From: boucherj at prodigy.net (Joe Boucher) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:56:31 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Freescan cable. Message-ID: Bill , or anyone else, On your Twiki page, ( http://www.diy-efi.org/twiki/bin/view.pl/Gmecm/1227749 )you mention you use Freescan. What did you use for a cable? Here's a cable supposedly for '94 &'95 LT1 cars. http://www.akmcables.com/aldlif.jpg But would this work? http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/aldl8192/8192hw.htm Thanks, Joe B From b.shaw at comcast.net Tue Aug 29 20:03:51 2006 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:03:51 -0400 Subject: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <44E9042F.8080109@comcast.net> References: <44E7A443.1000008@comcast.net> <44E9005D.3000508@rochester.rr.com> <44E9042F.8080109@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44F4E3F7.1060506@comcast.net> 6 new exhaust valves later the heads are ready to put back on. Anyone know if the head bolts are reusable or torque-to-yield? Also, anyone know the torque specs for the head bolts, rockers & intake? thanks, Bill http://b.shaw.gotdns.com/Buick/Buick.htm Bill - Comcast wrote: > Hi Leo, > > L&A in Glenville, NY did the work. They're just north of Schenectady. > Air in the spark plug hole showed bad exhaust valve, air leaking out > the tail pipe. "L" of L&A fame says it's a chunk of carbon holding > the valve open, swears the valves are OK because they did a > compression test. > > Bill > > Leo Schneggenburger wrote: >> Hi Bill, >> I am not sure but I think this is an interference engine. It sure >> sounds like a bad valve at the least. Head gaskets are also a common >> issue on these engines and the fact that you are low on the adjacent >> cylinder makes me wonder about that too. Can you put air into the >> cylinder as a test? It should of course seal which it won't. Then see >> if air is coming out the intake manifold or the exhaust or look for >> bubbles in the radiator. You will know what to do after that. BTW, I >> am in "Upstate, NY" but I know that in NYC, /*anything */above the >> city is considered upstate and since you are from the tri-state area >> you probably think the same way, so where and who worked on your car >> if you don't mind answering? Privately if you wish. >> Leo >> >> Bill - Comcast wrote: >>> Sorry for the off topic post but I know there's a lot of mechanical >>> knowledge here and thought I'd solicit some opinions on this situation. >>> We just returned from the vacation-from-hell. Amy's wagon ate the >>> timing chain in upstate NY. We got towed into a garage where they >>> quoted 4-5 hours labor, $450 to $500 to fix it. They stumbled and >>> bumbled around with it for 3 days (each time I asked they were >>> almost done, only a couple more hours) while we waited and finally >>> at about 5:30 on the third day they started it, but it ran like >>> garbage and was leaking antifreeze from around the water pump and >>> had a major oil leak from the valve cover. They fiddled with the >>> plug wires for 2 more hours before they finally gave up and pushed >>> it out of the bay and into the yard. They went home to supper and >>> left me, Amy, and the 2 kids (7 & 4) sitting in the car for 5 hours >>> waiting for my car hauler to be brought up from CT. >>> Oh yes, before they went home they handed me a bill for $1050. From boucherj at prodigy.net Tue Aug 29 22:36:32 2006 From: boucherj at prodigy.net (Joe Boucher) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:36:32 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <44F4E3F7.1060506@comcast.net> Message-ID: I don't think the bolts are reusable. The one and only new car I bought was a '86 Buick with the 3.8. We sold it 186,000 miles later. I have a factory manual buried someplace, but I think I remember the bolts being torque to yield. Call a Buick dealer. They can tell you. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Bill - Comcast Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:04 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded 6 new exhaust valves later the heads are ready to put back on. Anyone know if the head bolts are reusable or torque-to-yield? Also, anyone know the torque specs for the head bolts, rockers & intake? thanks, Bill http://b.shaw.gotdns.com/Buick/Buick.htm Bill - Comcast wrote: > Hi Leo, > > L&A in Glenville, NY did the work. They're just north of Schenectady. > Air in the spark plug hole showed bad exhaust valve, air leaking out > the tail pipe. "L" of L&A fame says it's a chunk of carbon holding > the valve open, swears the valves are OK because they did a > compression test. > > Bill > > Leo Schneggenburger wrote: >> Hi Bill, >> I am not sure but I think this is an interference engine. It sure >> sounds like a bad valve at the least. Head gaskets are also a common >> issue on these engines and the fact that you are low on the adjacent >> cylinder makes me wonder about that too. Can you put air into the >> cylinder as a test? It should of course seal which it won't. Then see >> if air is coming out the intake manifold or the exhaust or look for >> bubbles in the radiator. You will know what to do after that. BTW, I >> am in "Upstate, NY" but I know that in NYC, /*anything */above the >> city is considered upstate and since you are from the tri-state area >> you probably think the same way, so where and who worked on your car >> if you don't mind answering? Privately if you wish. >> Leo >> >> Bill - Comcast wrote: >>> Sorry for the off topic post but I know there's a lot of mechanical >>> knowledge here and thought I'd solicit some opinions on this situation. >>> We just returned from the vacation-from-hell. Amy's wagon ate the >>> timing chain in upstate NY. We got towed into a garage where they >>> quoted 4-5 hours labor, $450 to $500 to fix it. They stumbled and >>> bumbled around with it for 3 days (each time I asked they were >>> almost done, only a couple more hours) while we waited and finally >>> at about 5:30 on the third day they started it, but it ran like >>> garbage and was leaking antifreeze from around the water pump and >>> had a major oil leak from the valve cover. They fiddled with the >>> plug wires for 2 more hours before they finally gave up and pushed >>> it out of the bay and into the yard. They went home to supper and >>> left me, Amy, and the 2 kids (7 & 4) sitting in the car for 5 hours >>> waiting for my car hauler to be brought up from CT. >>> Oh yes, before they went home they handed me a bill for $1050. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From airhawk at hawkgt.net Tue Aug 29 22:56:05 2006 From: airhawk at hawkgt.net (The AirHawk) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:56:05 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: ] Reality check References: <44E7A443.1000008@comcast.net> <44E9005D.3000508@rochester.rr.com><44E9042F.8080109@comcast.net> <44F4E3F7.1060506@comcast.net> Message-ID: <002f01c6cbe8$3c318f90$0202a8c0@MajorDisaster> How much can a set of head-bolts cost? $30-$40? Cheap insurance, I'd say. Don't have torque-specs for you, unfortunately. -Scott C. >6 new exhaust valves later the heads are ready to put back on. Anyone know if the head bolts are >reusable or torque-to-yield? Also, anyone know the torque specs for the head bolts, rockers & >intake? > > thanks, > > Bill > http://b.shaw.gotdns.com/Buick/Buick.htm From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au Tue Aug 29 23:16:28 2006 From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:16:28 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Transcript of Aust ABC 7:30 report re CNG for automotiveuse In-Reply-To: <005b01c6cb85$a0c9dab0$0300a8c0@clive> References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060829193028.0269a350@iinet.net.au> <44F445B3.3060205@cythera.net> <005b01c6cb85$a0c9dab0$0300a8c0@clive> Message-ID: <200608301216.28617@death.2.spammers> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 00:10, Ernest Buckler wrote: > You chaps done any reading on algae oil? A little. It was mentioned by a correspondent in Engineers Australia August edition. [Read it in a library so don't have it at hand.] Did some further reading right there and then and various forms of carbon biosequestration have been researched since at least 1990, some of them producing stuff perhaps less useful than biodiesel. > Pretty wild claims, but supposedly sound science behind it. > 15,000 gallons of fuel oil (light, not bunker) harvested per 1 > (one) acre CO2-fed brack-water (sewage) pond per year. Zounds! The CO2 supply is potentially flue gas from fossil-fuelled power stations. The gas is cooled and bubbled through ponds loaded with algae and fed by sewage (or similar). It's a form of biosequestration with positive production of a useable fuel that reduces the demand for fossil fuel as well as treating the sewage. Processing the biomass yields biodiesel with little additional energy input. Ethanol can be produced using the dry "waste" of the biodiesel production. The CO2 that isn't absorbed during the bubbling process can feed plants around the perimeter of the ponds; e.g. orchards. Those of us who were taught and remember the carbon cycle from school, may well see that this "speeds up" the cycle. The correpondent in EA mentioned that much of Australia's oil resource started out as algae. So parts of the cycle are sped up by around 100 million years. Other story: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm It won't make any measureable difference to global warming, being a maximum of 3% of global CO2 of 5% of the "greenhouse". But it does reduce dependency on fossil fuels and denies the generation of "waste" in using the output of all processes as an input to another. > Would be interested to hear counter-arguments. It stinks. It requires an area; though not necessarily land or land that is otherwise useful for other form of "argiculture". Coastal areas could be used if algal strains tolerant of salt can be used for the same result. Sunlight is required for sequestration, the process being a form of photosynthesis. This means that it can't operate 'round the clock, and flue gas needs to be stored accordingly. There's some cost in that, but nothing like the astronomical costs of geosequestration. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | "Laws do not persuade just because X against HTML mail | they threaten." / \ and postings | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD. From gpbeau at cox.net Tue Aug 29 23:26:38 2006 From: gpbeau at cox.net (Garrett P. Beauregard) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:26:38 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded In-Reply-To: <44F4E3F7.1060506@comcast.net> Message-ID: Bill, >From my '98 Olds Intrigue service manual for the 3.8: 1. torque to yield--use new bolts 2. tighten to 50 N-m (37 lb-ft) on first pass then tighten an additional 120 degrees. Last, tighten center four bolts an additional 30 degrees Hope this helps. Reply offline if you would like a fax of the instructions with the proper sequence. Garrett -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Bill - Comcast Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 6:04 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Reality check - no efi content - long winded 6 new exhaust valves later the heads are ready to put back on. Anyone know if the head bolts are reusable or torque-to-yield? Also, anyone know the torque specs for the head bolts, rockers & intake? thanks, Bill http://b.shaw.gotdns.com/Buick/Buick.htm Bill - Comcast wrote: > Hi Leo, > > L&A in Glenville, NY did the work. They're just north of Schenectady. > Air in the spark plug hole showed bad exhaust valve, air leaking out > the tail pipe. "L" of L&A fame says it's a chunk of carbon holding > the valve open, swears the valves are OK because they did a > compression test. > > Bill > > Leo Schneggenburger wrote: >> Hi Bill, >> I am not sure but I think this is an interference engine. It sure >> sounds like a bad valve at the least. Head gaskets are also a common >> issue on these engines and the fact that you are low on the adjacent >> cylinder makes me wonder about that too. Can you put air into the >> cylinder as a test? It should of course seal which it won't. Then see >> if air is coming out the intake manifold or the exhaust or look for >> bubbles in the radiator. You will know what to do after that. BTW, I >> am in "Upstate, NY" but I know that in NYC, /*anything */above the >> city is considered upstate and since you are from the tri-state area >> you probably think the same way, so where and who worked on your car >> if you don't mind answering? Privately if you wish. >> Leo >> >> Bill - Comcast wrote: >>> Sorry for the off topic post but I know there's a lot of mechanical >>> knowledge here and thought I'd solicit some opinions on this situation. >>> We just returned from the vacation-from-hell. Amy's wagon ate the >>> timing chain in upstate NY. We got towed into a garage where they >>> quoted 4-5 hours labor, $450 to $500 to fix it. They stumbled and >>> bumbled around with it for 3 days (each time I asked they were >>> almost done, only a couple more hours) while we waited and finally >>> at about 5:30 on the third day they started it, but it ran like >>> garbage and was leaking antifreeze from around the water pump and >>> had a major oil leak from the valve cover. They fiddled with the >>> plug wires for 2 more hours before they finally gave up and pushed >>> it out of the bay and into the yard. They went home to supper and >>> left me, Amy, and the 2 kids (7 & 4) sitting in the car for 5 hours >>> waiting for my car hauler to be brought up from CT. >>> Oh yes, before they went home they handed me a bill for $1050. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/430 - Release Date: 8/28/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/430 - Release Date: 8/28/2006