From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Jun  1 03:59:03 2006
From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:59:03 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] blown engine...
Message-ID: <447EAC57.1000505@f2s.com>

Or so I thought...

some advice would be appreciated.

The turbo on my 18 year old Charade (1 litre 3 pot diesel) blew on the 
motorway the other day. I was driving along and started seeing a lot of 
blue smoke. Pulled to the side and popped the clutch on the way over 
(big mistake, but when you only have seconds to think you dont make the 
wisest choices...).

The engine __raced__ and I was rewarded with a huge cloud of black 
smoke. by now I'd turned off the ignition but it just carried on running 
hard. Eventually it slowed and stopped, followed by loud groaning / 
sucking noises.

Fearing the worst, I got it towed home and ripped the head off yesterday

amazingly, the bores are smooth (if full of oil), the engine rotates 
freely by hand, and the head appears not to be cracked. the head gasket 
must have gone (oil in water, water on the road) but damned if I can see 
where. theres a tiny chip out of one of the combustion chamber lips, and 
  pot no.3 has some small metal fragments in it (1 and 2 do too, but 
mostly 3.

The turbo binds badly and Im sure it was the cause of all this.

The questions are:

1) Why did the engine stop if its not seized?
2) I have another turbo. are there any special things I should take into 
cosideration when fitting it (like not using exhaust sealant prior to 
the turbine) ?
3) Is it possible that putting a 'T' in the turbo oil feed to run an 
[electronic] oil pressure sensor has killed the turbo somehow? it hasnt 
got a long tail on it or anything - its an aluminium block with holes 
bored in it and the sensor screws straight into the block.
4) does it matter what the oil feed pipe is made of? (I used copper 
brake line)


From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Jun  1 04:05:22 2006
From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 10:05:22 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
Message-ID: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com>

Hey there.

Well, I've taken on another project (despite my daily driver being in 
such bad shape - I must be mad).

I've acquired a Datsun 280 ZX as a restoration project.

Questions about the engine (which I havent seen yet).

1) Is it a Bosch L-Jet as I've seen mentioned on some sites ?
2) Can the injection system be replaced with something more modern (I 
know the existing one is in bad shape) like Megasquirt? Has this 'been 
done' on this engine ?
3) I know the engine can be turbo'd so any solution I add now I would 
like to be able to use after adding the turbo.
4) I have zero experience of petrols - this one has been standing for 6 
years so I assume its going to need some TLC to get it running again. A 
friend has said SOP is to pull the plugs and pour a little oil in each 
cylinder then turn by hand before cranking, then reinserting plugs, then 
going for a start. That seems sensible - but is it enough ?

any and all advice would be appreciated.


From krawczuk at dodo.com.au  Thu Jun  1 04:14:11 2006
From: krawczuk at dodo.com.au (mark krawczuk)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 18:44:11 +0930
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
References: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c6855b$bf3f4270$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>

hi, that sounds about right,  put  some oil in the cylinders, and crank over 
by hand, then  after a bit try it with the starter  to force a bit more  oil 
round the rings.

wight have to   push a rag  down  the spark plug hole to  try an get any 
excess oil , so that it will be easier to start..
mark k


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian Molton" <spyro at f2s.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 6:35 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine


> Hey there.
>
> Well, I've taken on another project (despite my daily driver being in such 
> bad shape - I must be mad).
>
> I've acquired a Datsun 280 ZX as a restoration project.
>
> Questions about the engine (which I havent seen yet).
>
> 1) Is it a Bosch L-Jet as I've seen mentioned on some sites ?
> 2) Can the injection system be replaced with something more modern (I know 
> the existing one is in bad shape) like Megasquirt? Has this 'been done' on 
> this engine ?
> 3) I know the engine can be turbo'd so any solution I add now I would like 
> to be able to use after adding the turbo.
> 4) I have zero experience of petrols - this one has been standing for 6 
> years so I assume its going to need some TLC to get it running again. A 
> friend has said SOP is to pull the plugs and pour a little oil in each 
> cylinder then turn by hand before cranking, then reinserting plugs, then 
> going for a start. That seems sensible - but is it enough ?
>
> any and all advice would be appreciated.
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi 



From b.shaw at comcast.net  Thu Jun  1 07:41:32 2006
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:41:32 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
In-Reply-To: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com>
Message-ID: <C0A458BC.9951%b.shaw@comcast.net>

Hi Ian,

I believe you are correct in that the 280zx is running an L-jet ecu,  same
as my 928 was when I got it.  MS should work fine (although I haven't used
it myself)  but a GM '749 works fine also!  You need to add a TPS (l-jet
uses a throttle switch), IAC, IAT, knock sensor, and a GM 7 pin ignition
module.  There's a pretty complete write up on my site:
http://p-928.home.comcast.net/749.html

hth,

Bill
'84 Porsche 928s Vortech/749 (track beast,  still going strong!)
'84 Ferrari Mondial Cab. (for sale)
'94 Z28 (gotta drive something in the snow!)

> From: Ian Molton <spyro at f2s.com>
> 
> Hey there.
> 
> Well, I've taken on another project (despite my daily driver being in
> such bad shape - I must be mad).
> 
> I've acquired a Datsun 280 ZX as a restoration project.
> 
> Questions about the engine (which I havent seen yet).
> 
> 1) Is it a Bosch L-Jet as I've seen mentioned on some sites ?
> 2) Can the injection system be replaced with something more modern (I
> know the existing one is in bad shape) like Megasquirt? Has this 'been
> done' on this engine ?
> 3) I know the engine can be turbo'd so any solution I add now I would
> like to be able to use after adding the turbo.
> 4) I have zero experience of petrols - this one has been standing for 6
> years so I assume its going to need some TLC to get it running again. A
> friend has said SOP is to pull the plugs and pour a little oil in each
> cylinder then turn by hand before cranking, then reinserting plugs, then
> going for a start. That seems sensible - but is it enough ?
> 
> any and all advice would be appreciated.
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jun  1 08:50:39 2006
From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 06:50:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: slightly long reply [Diy_efi] blown engine...
In-Reply-To: <447EAC57.1000505@f2s.com>
Message-ID: <20060601135039.82368.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com>


The questions are:

1) Why did the engine stop if its not seized?
** First, understand what makes a dsl run, if mechanical injected and mechanical fuel pump'd (as the age suggests) it is totally self sustaining as long as then the fuel cutoff is powered, typical shutoff is that the fuel supply is interrupted to the injector pump, thereby starving the engine and it quits. Many heavy equipment dsl's like dozers, graders, etc. have a simple toggle switch for the fuel cutoff activated by the foot throttle, step on it and the switch enables the fuel, hit a push button on console to kick starter, and she starts! to stop, common practice is to lift the foot pedal with your toe, disabling the fuel cutoff valve, and she dies. Simplicity leads to reliability, don't want to have to tow a grader that is dead! As for dsl's they burn oil, and if the turbo seals blow, then there is a source of fuel entering the engine through the intake as opposed to the normal being injected at near TDC, so it would continue to run (and possibly run wildly out of
 control) until the injected source is cut, then possibly run on using the intake sucked turbo oil as it's fuel source. It would not run well, but would probabally run for some time until it finally starves itself and ceases.

2) I have another turbo. are there any special things I should take into 
cosideration when fitting it (like not using exhaust sealant prior to 
the turbine) ?
** Standard exhaust techniques are appropriate, gaskets need to fit tight, no leakage, and I've never herd of using 'sealant' but only high-temp gaskets. BTW, common practice is also to 'wrap' the turbo exhaust piping to reduce under-hood heat, critical in tight compartments on gas turbo but maybe not as important on dsl's.

3) Is it possible that putting a 'T' in the turbo oil feed to run an 
[electronic] oil pressure sensor has killed the turbo somehow? it hasnt 
got a long tail on it or anything - its an aluminium block with holes 
bored in it and the sensor screws straight into the block.
** As long as the flow is not impeded by the T or fittings, then this shouldn't be an issue. Bear in mind it may not be a 'true' indication of pressure, as there is not great restriction through the turbo for oil, it is a flow to create the float for the bearing and to cool it, critical that there is adequate retrun flow (meaning no restriction) to the sump, if there is restriction then the cooling and backpressure in the bearings could be a cause of blow-by in the turbo bearings and hence leakage into the intake, if this condition persists, it will deteriate the turbo oil seals and hence possibly the situation you encountered. I've seen this on cars that have a rubber hydraulic return line, they typically 'coke' or 'sludge' up and partly decompose the inner wall of the hose, thereby constricting the flow and eventually causing turbo failure in otherwise good condition cars. Pontiac 89-90 Turbo Grand Prix had this and the resolve it to regularly replace the return line,
 like every 20K to 30K, or replace the turbo every 50K, whichever suits you.

4) does it matter what the oil feed pipe is made of? (I used copper 
brake line)
** Shouldn't matter what the feed pipe is made of as long as it is metal, I've used copper, aluminum, & stainless materials with no apperant adverse affects. As long as the oil is not corrosive to the metal, and there are no fragments that could cause turbo bearing failure, go for it.

From liberty1 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 11:06:16 2006
From: liberty1 at gmail.com (Bobby Yates Emory)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 12:06:16 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
In-Reply-To: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com>
References: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com>
Message-ID: <54b6188b0606010906r4c6886a3wd7490fa7871c6e3@mail.gmail.com>

Ian,

Restart procedure sounds about right, but I would use Marvel Mystery Oil.
Put a couple of tablespoons down each cylinder.  Let sit over night (or a
day or two).  Put another tablespoon down each cylinder.  Turn engine over a
few rounds with a socket on the harmonic balancer bolt (sparks plugs out and
ignition off).  With the plugs still out, turn over a few times with the
starter (this is to get all the excess oil out of the cylinders).   Then
install plugs and try to start up.

(Caution - I have heard that electronic ignitions can be damaged by running
the engine with one or more wires off the plugs.  So it may be worth your
while to rig up a way to "hit" the starter, without turning on the
ignition.  I don't remember how the starter solenoid worked on my 240Z, but
usually there is a small stud on the solenoid which you can put 12 V to and
it kicks in the solenoid which connects power and engages the starter
drive.   I am not certain about this concern - I could be worrying
unnecessarily. Anyone know for 280Z?)

Good luck,
Bobby



On 6/1/06, Ian Molton <spyro at f2s.com> wrote:
>
> Hey there.
>
> Well, I've taken on another project (despite my daily driver being in
> such bad shape - I must be mad).
>
> I've acquired a Datsun 280 ZX as a restoration project.
>
> Questions about the engine (which I havent seen yet).
>
> 1) Is it a Bosch L-Jet as I've seen mentioned on some sites ?
> 2) Can the injection system be replaced with something more modern (I
> know the existing one is in bad shape) like Megasquirt? Has this 'been
> done' on this engine ?
> 3) I know the engine can be turbo'd so any solution I add now I would
> like to be able to use after adding the turbo.
> 4) I have zero experience of petrols - this one has been standing for 6
> years so I assume its going to need some TLC to get it running again. A
> friend has said SOP is to pull the plugs and pour a little oil in each
> cylinder then turn by hand before cranking, then reinserting plugs, then
> going for a start. That seems sensible - but is it enough ?
>
> any and all advice would be appreciated.
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



-- 
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory


From b.shaw at comcast.net  Thu Jun  1 11:14:13 2006
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 12:14:13 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
In-Reply-To: <54b6188b0606010906r4c6886a3wd7490fa7871c6e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C0A48A95.9958%b.shaw@comcast.net>

If you're concerned about it you could always pull the fuse to the ECU.

Bill


> From: "Bobby Yates Emory" <liberty1 at gmail.com>
> 
> Ian,
> 
> Restart procedure sounds about right, but I would use Marvel Mystery Oil.
> Put a couple of tablespoons down each cylinder.  Let sit over night (or a
> day or two).  Put another tablespoon down each cylinder.  Turn engine over a
> few rounds with a socket on the harmonic balancer bolt (sparks plugs out and
> ignition off).  With the plugs still out, turn over a few times with the
> starter (this is to get all the excess oil out of the cylinders).   Then
> install plugs and try to start up.
> 
> (Caution - I have heard that electronic ignitions can be damaged by running
> the engine with one or more wires off the plugs.  So it may be worth your
> while to rig up a way to "hit" the starter, without turning on the
> ignition.  I don't remember how the starter solenoid worked on my 240Z, but
> usually there is a small stud on the solenoid which you can put 12 V to and
> it kicks in the solenoid which connects power and engages the starter
> drive.   I am not certain about this concern - I could be worrying
> unnecessarily. Anyone know for 280Z?)
> 
> Good luck,
> Bobby
> 



From five10man at commspeed.net  Thu Jun  1 11:46:41 2006
From: five10man at commspeed.net (Tom Visel)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 09:46:41 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
In-Reply-To: <C0A48A95.9958%b.shaw@comcast.net>
References: <C0A48A95.9958%b.shaw@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <447F19F1.3040404@commspeed.net>

It has an easy-to-access terminal for the single small wire at the 
solenoid.  Easy job with a screwdriver and the ignition off.
TomV

Bill Shaw wrote:

>If you're concerned about it you could always pull the fuse to the ECU.
>
>Bill
>
>
>  
>
>>From: "Bobby Yates Emory" <liberty1 at gmail.com>
>>
>>Ian,
>>
>>Restart procedure sounds about right, but I would use Marvel Mystery Oil.
>>Put a couple of tablespoons down each cylinder.  Let sit over night (or a
>>day or two).  Put another tablespoon down each cylinder.  Turn engine over a
>>few rounds with a socket on the harmonic balancer bolt (sparks plugs out and
>>ignition off).  With the plugs still out, turn over a few times with the
>>starter (this is to get all the excess oil out of the cylinders).   Then
>>install plugs and try to start up.
>>
>>(Caution - I have heard that electronic ignitions can be damaged by running
>>the engine with one or more wires off the plugs.  So it may be worth your
>>while to rig up a way to "hit" the starter, without turning on the
>>ignition.  I don't remember how the starter solenoid worked on my 240Z, but
>>usually there is a small stud on the solenoid which you can put 12 V to and
>>it kicks in the solenoid which connects power and engages the starter
>>drive.   I am not certain about this concern - I could be worrying
>>unnecessarily. Anyone know for 280Z?)
>>
>>Good luck,
>>Bobby
>>
>>    
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>  
>


From galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Jun  1 12:54:06 2006
From: galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net (Jason M.)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 13:54:06 -0400
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
References: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com>
	<54b6188b0606010906r4c6886a3wd7490fa7871c6e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004901c685a4$62310bb0$4101a8c0@BILLYBOB>

You will also want to change the oil and filter.  This will make sure 
anything that might have fallen/crawled into the pan over the years is out 
and that you have a good filter that won't burst under pressure.

After you run it for a little while you'll want to change the oil and filter 
again.

Of course this is assuming you care about the engine and want it to last as 
long as possible without actually taking the engine apart for cleaning and 
replacement of worn items.

btw, I'll be getting an engine that has sat for 3 years running this summer. 
Pulled the intake and oil pan to see the general condition.  Found the valve 
stems had a fair amount of rust on them.  To avoid a valve sticking or 
damaging a valve guide I've spent $60 on a gasket set so the whole thing can 
be torn apart and cleaned up.  Much cheaper then possibly spending $500 to 
have the heads rebuilt or $600 on a set of pistons if a ring breaks and 
damages a piston or possibly a bore.

Engine I'm working on is a 1976 8.2L cadillac.

And yes it would be a good idea to disconnect the power lead to the coil so 
the ignition can't fire if you just want to spin the engine with the 
starter.  Although if you are at the point where you are spinning the engine 
with the starter you should go ahead and start the engine so it can build 
oil pressure quickly.  Ideally you'd find a way to spin the oil pump drive 
(not possible on many newer engines don't know about yours) to circulate oil 
before even turning the engine.  Second best is to remove a rocker arm 
cover, cam cover or intake, whatever gains you the best access to the 
internals of the engine and pour oil on everything.  Some of which will 
hopefully fall on top of the crank, rods, etc... to get some lubrication 
there before things are moving.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bobby Yates Emory" <liberty1 at gmail.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 12:06 PM
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine


> Ian,
>
> Restart procedure sounds about right, but I would use Marvel Mystery Oil.
> Put a couple of tablespoons down each cylinder.  Let sit over night (or a
> day or two).  Put another tablespoon down each cylinder.  Turn engine over 
> a
> few rounds with a socket on the harmonic balancer bolt (sparks plugs out 
> and
> ignition off).  With the plugs still out, turn over a few times with the
> starter (this is to get all the excess oil out of the cylinders).   Then
> install plugs and try to start up.
>
> (Caution - I have heard that electronic ignitions can be damaged by 
> running
> the engine with one or more wires off the plugs.  So it may be worth your
> while to rig up a way to "hit" the starter, without turning on the
> ignition.  I don't remember how the starter solenoid worked on my 240Z, 
> but
> usually there is a small stud on the solenoid which you can put 12 V to 
> and
> it kicks in the solenoid which connects power and engages the starter
> drive.   I am not certain about this concern - I could be worrying
> unnecessarily. Anyone know for 280Z?)
>
> Good luck,
> Bobby
>
>
>
> On 6/1/06, Ian Molton <spyro at f2s.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hey there.
>>
>> Well, I've taken on another project (despite my daily driver being in
>> such bad shape - I must be mad).
>>
>> I've acquired a Datsun 280 ZX as a restoration project.
>>
>> Questions about the engine (which I havent seen yet).
>>
>> 1) Is it a Bosch L-Jet as I've seen mentioned on some sites ?
>> 2) Can the injection system be replaced with something more modern (I
>> know the existing one is in bad shape) like Megasquirt? Has this 'been
>> done' on this engine ?
>> 3) I know the engine can be turbo'd so any solution I add now I would
>> like to be able to use after adding the turbo.
>> 4) I have zero experience of petrols - this one has been standing for 6
>> years so I assume its going to need some TLC to get it running again. A
>> friend has said SOP is to pull the plugs and pour a little oil in each
>> cylinder then turn by hand before cranking, then reinserting plugs, then
>> going for a start. That seems sensible - but is it enough ?
>>
>> any and all advice would be appreciated.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Toward freedom,
>
> Bobby Yates Emory
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 




From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu  Thu Jun  1 15:49:30 2006
From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F6rn_Forsman?=)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:49:30 +0200
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
In-Reply-To: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com>
References: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com>
Message-ID: <447F52DA.50703@gengas.nu>

The 280 ZX used Bosch L-jetronic on cars manufactured up to June 1981. 
 From July 1981 on, they use a japanese injection system (made by JECS, 
Japan Electronic Control Systems) which is very similar to L-jetronic. 
But beware, although the japanese ECU uses the same 35-pin connector as 
L-jetronic, the pinning is completely different!

Best regards

Torbj?rn Forsman

Ian Molton wrote:
> Hey there.
> 
> Well, I've taken on another project (despite my daily driver being in 
> such bad shape - I must be mad).
> 
> I've acquired a Datsun 280 ZX as a restoration project.
> 
> Questions about the engine (which I havent seen yet).
> 
> 1) Is it a Bosch L-Jet as I've seen mentioned on some sites ?
> 2) Can the injection system be replaced with something more modern (I 
> know the existing one is in bad shape) like Megasquirt? Has this 'been 
> done' on this engine ?
> 3) I know the engine can be turbo'd so any solution I add now I would 
> like to be able to use after adding the turbo.
> 4) I have zero experience of petrols - this one has been standing for 6 
> years so I assume its going to need some TLC to get it running again. A 
> friend has said SOP is to pull the plugs and pour a little oil in each 
> cylinder then turn by hand before cranking, then reinserting plugs, then 
> going for a start. That seems sensible - but is it enough ?
> 
> any and all advice would be appreciated.
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 



From dirtrider218 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  2 00:19:48 2006
From: dirtrider218 at hotmail.com (John Smith1882)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2006 22:19:48 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Megasquirt 2  Thoughts, Comments?
In-Reply-To: <BAY0-MC7-F94pbSmqZG0091e6ee@bay0-mc7-f9.bay0.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY105-F194294A1048634F865193A97910@phx.gbl>

If if you think the price is too good to be true, look at the capabilities 
of MegaSquirt-1 with MSnS-E code. It's only $135 and probably has only 15% 
fewer features than MS-II. In fact, much of MS-II's upgrades were hardware 
and durability related.

>Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:28:28 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Bret Levandowski <skishop69 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Megasquirt 2  Thoughts, Comments?
>To: "diy_efi at diy-efi.org" <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Message-ID: <20060601002829.33350.qmail at web60320.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>Just curious if anyone out there has used this set-up. The write-ups are 
>all very positive. I have a new project going and will need custom control 
>but $275 seems too good for a stand alone system. Let's hear it!
>  __________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com




From galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jun  2 10:12:58 2006
From: galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net (Jason M.)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 11:12:58 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Megasquirt 2  Thoughts, Comments?
References: <BAY105-F194294A1048634F865193A97910@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <00cd01c6865a$2cb9a3a0$4101a8c0@BILLYBOB>

I have wanted to try one, and so has a friend of mine, for a while.  The 
most likely project I'll have for it is controlling fuel only on a 500 
cadillac I'm putting in my 85 caprice project car this summer.  The car was 
originally fuel injected so I already have a sending unit with fuel pump and 
all the lines I need.

Intend to replumb the chassis for fuel injection even though I'll be running 
it as carbureted for now.  If I can get a large enough throttle body and 
injectors cheap enough I might try to put something together next winter. 
Poor college student now with too many other projects that have higher 
priority then this.

There was also a guy on this list, or maybe it was gm_ecm, that was running 
one said he liked it.  The only downside is to get that cheap price you have 
to put it together, or pay another 100 or whatever to get one pre-assembled.

Still it's really not bad price wise, probably the next step up while still 
being reasonable in cost would be performance electronics ECU.  Mostly I 
think Formula SAE teams use them (mini F1 style race cars built by college 
students).  About $800 a pop.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Smith1882" <dirtrider218 at hotmail.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 1:19 AM
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Megasquirt 2 Thoughts, Comments?


> If if you think the price is too good to be true, look at the capabilities 
> of MegaSquirt-1 with MSnS-E code. It's only $135 and probably has only 15% 
> fewer features than MS-II. In fact, much of MS-II's upgrades were hardware 
> and durability related.
>
>>Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:28:28 -0700 (PDT)
>>From: Bret Levandowski <skishop69 at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: [Diy_efi] Megasquirt 2  Thoughts, Comments?
>>To: "diy_efi at diy-efi.org" <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>>Message-ID: <20060601002829.33350.qmail at web60320.mail.yahoo.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>>Just curious if anyone out there has used this set-up. The write-ups are 
>>all very positive. I have a new project going and will need custom control 
>>but $275 seems too good for a stand alone system. Let's hear it!
>>  __________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 




From Head2Wind at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 10:50:03 2006
From: Head2Wind at gmail.com (KN)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2006 08:50:03 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Megasquirt 2  Thoughts, Comments?
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F194294A1048634F865193A97910@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <008401c6865c$367a5d60$09282786@mv.skagit.edu>

I concur with John's statements that the V2.2 main board with MS-I processor
running MSnS-E code. It is a very versatile package for a very low price.  I
just picked up a professionally built unit from Ebay, shipped to me for $170
USD.  If you are into DIY and soldering you can buy the complete kit from
here for $134 +shipping
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirti-programmable-system-pcb22-una
ssembled-p-28.html?osCsid=c003d5149a27a6c48b5a04b025734f44

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On
Behalf Of John Smith1882
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 10:20 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Megasquirt 2 Thoughts, Comments?

If if you think the price is too good to be true, look at the capabilities 
of MegaSquirt-1 with MSnS-E code. It's only $135 and probably has only 15% 
fewer features than MS-II. In fact, much of MS-II's upgrades were hardware 
and durability related.

>Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 17:28:28 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Bret Levandowski <skishop69 at yahoo.com>
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Megasquirt 2  Thoughts, Comments?
>To: "diy_efi at diy-efi.org" <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Message-ID: <20060601002829.33350.qmail at web60320.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>Just curious if anyone out there has used this set-up. The write-ups are 
>all very positive. I have a new project going and will need custom control 
>but $275 seems too good for a stand alone system. Let's hear it!
>  __________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


Scanned outbound email SVC Barracuda


From gpzmotoman at comcast.net  Sun Jun  4 22:03:17 2006
From: gpzmotoman at comcast.net (Frederick Trient)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 20:03:17 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
Message-ID: <E5D278B6-457F-4E23-B6A3-979BF26BA1C6@comcast.net>

Hello out there.
I'm brand new to the list so I hope my questions won't be too basic  
for any of you. The rising price of gas has made me think of  
improving the mpg for my '65 El Camino. At about 11 mpg with an  
Edelbrock 4 barrel carb it's getting pretty expensive to drive.  
Another reason for me to consider f.i. is the possibility of E85 gas  
becoming available. I'm going on the assumption that fuel injection  
is necessary to burn the E85 stuff. Is that correct? If so, it seems  
that it would be possible to switch, on the fly, from mapping for  
straight unleaded gas to mapping for E85 with a box somewhere on the  
dashboard. I'm thinking that it would be necessary to have different  
mapping for each type of fuel.
Would appreciate any feedback you guys could give me.
TIA,
Fred


From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net  Mon Jun  5 08:21:05 2006
From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 06:21:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <E5D278B6-457F-4E23-B6A3-979BF26BA1C6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20060605132105.40634.qmail@web80509.mail.yahoo.com>

in my understanding, one could use static mapping as long as you know the % of alcholhol blend being used. The manufacturer method, though, is to use a sensor to measure the % inline to the injectors and dynamically map based on measurements, plus a wideband O2 sensor for feedback. This is more complex, but not beyond the scope of a DIY'r, just need newer technology controllers and sensors to pull it off. Last I herd the Ford and GM systems only added less $150 in actual parts (at thier bulk price) to improve to FFV (Ford's term for Flexible Fuel Vehicle) E85 capability. So, with some scrounging and a little work one should be able to pull off a similar for about the same increase. Some of our previous international posters have pioneered this on this list, let's see if we can drag a response from one of them, Brazil comes to mind.

----- Original Message ----
From: Frederick Trient <gpzmotoman at comcast.net>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2006 10:03:17 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)


Hello out there.
I'm brand new to the list so I hope my questions won't be too basic  
for any of you. The rising price of gas has made me think of  
improving the mpg for my '65 El Camino. At about 11 mpg with an  
Edelbrock 4 barrel carb it's getting pretty expensive to drive.  
Another reason for me to consider f.i. is the possibility of E85 gas  
becoming available. I'm going on the assumption that fuel injection  
is necessary to burn the E85 stuff. Is that correct? If so, it seems  
that it would be possible to switch, on the fly, from mapping for  
straight unleaded gas to mapping for E85 with a box somewhere on the  
dashboard. I'm thinking that it would be necessary to have different  
mapping for each type of fuel.
Would appreciate any feedback you guys could give me.
TIA,
Fred
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

From scoutii76 at hotmail.com  Mon Jun  5 10:17:59 2006
From: scoutii76 at hotmail.com (Bill Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 10:17:59 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <20060605132105.40634.qmail@web80509.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY101-F13E1DD5F984405F2CFD037B0940@phx.gbl>

Why couldn't you just use switchable bins with the same ECM.
Just have a little switch to select the type fuel running.
Then you could have the new AFR already set in the bin along with revised 
fuel and timing tables.

Moates used to have a 6 bin switch for GM ECMs

----Original Message Follows----
From: Rick McLeod <dunvegan at sbcglobal.net>
Reply-To: Rick McLeod <dunvegan at sbcglobal.net>, diy_efi at diy-efi.org
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 06:21:05 -0700 (PDT)

in my understanding, one could use static mapping as long as you know the % 
of alcholhol blend being used. The manufacturer method, though, is to use a 
sensor to measure the % inline to the injectors and dynamically map based on 
measurements, plus a wideband O2 sensor for feedback. This is more complex, 
but not beyond the scope of a DIY'r, just need newer technology controllers 
and sensors to pull it off. Last I herd the Ford and GM systems only added 
less $150 in actual parts (at thier bulk price) to improve to FFV (Ford's 
term for Flexible Fuel Vehicle) E85 capability. So, with some scrounging and 
a little work one should be able to pull off a similar for about the same 
increase. Some of our previous international posters have pioneered this on 
this list, let's see if we can drag a response from one of them, Brazil 
comes to mind.

----- Original Message ----
From: Frederick Trient <gpzmotoman at comcast.net>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2006 10:03:17 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)


Hello out there.
I'm brand new to the list so I hope my questions won't be too basic
for any of you. The rising price of gas has made me think of
improving the mpg for my '65 El Camino. At about 11 mpg with an
Edelbrock 4 barrel carb it's getting pretty expensive to drive.
Another reason for me to consider f.i. is the possibility of E85 gas
becoming available. I'm going on the assumption that fuel injection
is necessary to burn the E85 stuff. Is that correct? If so, it seems
that it would be possible to switch, on the fly, from mapping for
straight unleaded gas to mapping for E85 with a box somewhere on the
dashboard. I'm thinking that it would be necessary to have different
mapping for each type of fuel.
Would appreciate any feedback you guys could give me.
TIA,
Fred
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi




From dirtrider218 at hotmail.com  Mon Jun  5 14:38:54 2006
From: dirtrider218 at hotmail.com (John Smith1882)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 12:38:54 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: El Camino carb to EFI/FFV conversion
In-Reply-To: <BAY0-MC3-F57R7wD6qT00514736@bay0-mc3-f5.bay0.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY105-F117AD65B3A20D5750AB13D97940@phx.gbl>


No, you do not need fuel injection to use E85, but with a carburetor you 
cannot easily nor seamlessly switch between gasoline and E85. You have to 
jet the carb richer to compensate for the  alcohol and doing so would make 
the engine run too rich on staight gasoline. And yes, with quite a few EFI 
systems you can switch between two different fuel and spark maps. However, 
the hard part is being able to use a toggle switch to change between them 
since many OEM sytems use a knock sensor to do that instead. I know the 
early-late '80s Ford 2.3L turbo cars had a fuel switch; one for regular and 
one for premium, that effected the spark advance and boost level. MegaSquirt 
seems to be the best diy option available these days. I tried screwing with 
binaries and roms on a Nissan system(which some would say is simpler than 
GMs) and it is a huge pain IMO. MegaSquirt is hugely flexible, massively 
upgradable, cheap, and easy to use.

In the meantime I would like to know why your EL Camino gets such horrible 
economy......unless it has a big engine and an automatic. What 
engine/trans/modifications does it have? How fast is it usually driven? Does 
the trans have OD?

>Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 20:03:17 -0700
>From: Frederick Trient <gpzmotoman at comcast.net>
>Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Message-ID: <E5D278B6-457F-4E23-B6A3-979BF26BA1C6 at comcast.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>At about 11 mpg with an
>Edelbrock 4 barrel carb it's getting pretty expensive to drive.
>Another reason for me to consider f.i. is the possibility of E85 gas
>becoming available. I'm going on the assumption that fuel injection
>is necessary to burn the E85 stuff. Is that correct? If so, it seems
>that it would be possible to switch, on the fly, from mapping for
>straight unleaded gas to mapping for E85 with a box somewhere on the
>dashboard. I'm thinking that it would be necessary to have different
>mapping for each type of fuel.
>Would appreciate any feedback you guys could give me.
>TIA,
>Fred




From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu  Mon Jun  5 16:21:56 2006
From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F6rn_Forsman?=)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:21:56 +0200
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <E5D278B6-457F-4E23-B6A3-979BF26BA1C6@comcast.net>
References: <E5D278B6-457F-4E23-B6A3-979BF26BA1C6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4484A074.9070903@gengas.nu>

It is definitively no problem to use E85 (at least the E85 fuel 
available in Sweden) in old carbureted cars.
Usually, the conversion is just a matter of changing to bigger main 
jets. An area increase of about 30 %, i.e. a diameter increase of 15 % , 
will often work well.
To get good fuel economy, the ignition timing can be adjusted somewhat 
(typically 5-7 degrees) earlier than for gasoline.
Furthermore, it is important to have good intake air preheating. On old 
cars with a hand operated preheating flap, it can usually be left in the 
"winter" position all year around. In case of thermostat controlled 
preheating, make sure that it operates as intended and, if possible, try 
to adjust the thermostat for a higher temperature than usual.

On an old car, there is often much gum residue from gasoline in the fuel 
system. This residue will dissolve in E85 and may then clog the fuel 
filter(s). It is common to have to replace the fuel filter and possibly 
clean the carb several times during the first months on E85. Don't 
forget the filters that might be integrated in the tank armature, fuel 
pump and carb!
Old, brittle fuel hoses might become leaky when the gum deposits are 
washed away (perhaps the rubber is so porous that the gum was necessary 
for sealing).


Best regards

Torbj?rn Forsman

Frederick Trient wrote:
> Hello out there.
> I'm brand new to the list so I hope my questions won't be too basic  for 
> any of you. The rising price of gas has made me think of  improving the 
> mpg for my '65 El Camino. At about 11 mpg with an  Edelbrock 4 barrel 
> carb it's getting pretty expensive to drive.  Another reason for me to 
> consider f.i. is the possibility of E85 gas  becoming available. I'm 
> going on the assumption that fuel injection  is necessary to burn the 
> E85 stuff. Is that correct? If so, it seems  that it would be possible 
> to switch, on the fly, from mapping for  straight unleaded gas to 
> mapping for E85 with a box somewhere on the  dashboard. I'm thinking 
> that it would be necessary to have different  mapping for each type of 
> fuel.
> Would appreciate any feedback you guys could give me.
> TIA,
> Fred
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 



From five10man at commspeed.net  Mon Jun  5 17:46:56 2006
From: five10man at commspeed.net (Tom Visel)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:46:56 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
In-Reply-To: <447F52DA.50703@gengas.nu>
References: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com> <447F52DA.50703@gengas.nu>
Message-ID: <4484B45F.80209@commspeed.net>

How certain are you on this?  I have a reason for asking - another shop 
just asked me to come over and resurrect their 1978 (11/'77) 280Z 
restoration project.  They have two ECUs, both JECS, neither of which 
run the car.  Are you saying that Nissan used straight L-jet before July 
'81, and these two ECUs are both incorrect?  This might be consistent, 
as the car never ran the whole time they had it in their shop.  Now that 
I got the plug wires in order, it will run on brake cleaner.  Both of 
the ECUs are p/n A11-601 000.

Thanks for the help,
TomV


Torbj?rn Forsman wrote:

> The 280 ZX used Bosch L-jetronic on cars manufactured up to June 1981. 
> From July 1981 on, they use a japanese injection system (made by JECS, 
> Japan Electronic Control Systems) which is very similar to L-jetronic. 
> But beware, although the japanese ECU uses the same 35-pin connector 
> as L-jetronic, the pinning is completely different!
>
> Best regards
>
> Torbj?rn Forsman
>
> Ian Molton wrote:
>
>> Hey there.
>>
>> Well, I've taken on another project (despite my daily driver being in 
>> such bad shape - I must be mad).
>>
>> I've acquired a Datsun 280 ZX as a restoration project.
>>
>> Questions about the engine (which I havent seen yet).
>>
>> 1) Is it a Bosch L-Jet as I've seen mentioned on some sites ?
>> 2) Can the injection system be replaced with something more modern (I 
>> know the existing one is in bad shape) like Megasquirt? Has this 
>> 'been done' on this engine ?
>> 3) I know the engine can be turbo'd so any solution I add now I would 
>> like to be able to use after adding the turbo.
>> 4) I have zero experience of petrols - this one has been standing for 
>> 6 years so I assume its going to need some TLC to get it running 
>> again. A friend has said SOP is to pull the plugs and pour a little 
>> oil in each cylinder then turn by hand before cranking, then 
>> reinserting plugs, then going for a start. That seems sensible - but 
>> is it enough ?
>>
>> any and all advice would be appreciated.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>


From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  5 19:37:25 2006
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:37:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <20060605132105.40634.qmail@web80509.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060606003725.56143.qmail@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Rick McLeod <dunvegan at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> in my understanding, one could use static mapping as
> long as you know the % of alcholhol blend being
> used.

That was my thought.  If you know you're going to be
using E85, the math should be fairly easy for how much
more volume you need to deliver.  Just up your fuel
pressure with an adjustable pressure regulator for the
E85; a calculator and a fuel pressure gauge should be
sufficient (with the adjustable regulator) as long as
you have enough capacity to spare in your high
pressure fuel pump and low pressure delivery hardware
(depending on whether your system runs high pressure
from the tank directly, or low pressure to the engine compartment).

| Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)       Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)|
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
| M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com -  http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze |

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu  Tue Jun  6 04:48:27 2006
From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F6rn_Forsman?=)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:48:27 +0200
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
In-Reply-To: <4484B45F.80209@commspeed.net>
References: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com> <447F52DA.50703@gengas.nu>
	<4484B45F.80209@commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <44854F6B.1060702@gengas.nu>

Well, I took the information from a "service message" from the swedish 
Bosch organization (Group 250 no 5, 1982.04.21). Now when i read it 
another time, it seems like also the earlier ECUs were manufactured by 
JECS, but pin compatible to Bosch L-jetronic.
It says the following (directly translated from swedish):

"
Usage of Bosch L-jetronic tester on Datsun
------------------------------------------
Datsun model S 130 = 280ZX  is imported to Sweden with L-jetronic of the 
JECS brand. Model 910 (Bluebird) is available in Sweden only with 
carburetor or diesel. Model S 110 is not imported to Sweden.

Bosch L-jetronic tester ETJ 002.02 (analogue) can not directly be 
connected to the L-jetronic system on Datsun S 130 manufactured from 
July 1981 on due to changed connections in the ECU and connector. To 
test wiring harness and ECU of the new model, two adapter cables are 
necessary. On cars before July 1981, the tester can be directly connected.

WARNING:
Connection of the tester without adapter cables to the L-jetronic system 
in cars manufactured from July 1981 on will cause damage to the ECU and 
wiring harness due to short circuit!

Identification on ECUs of the new model:
----------------------------------------
1. Instruction decal with english text on the bottom side of the ECU.
2. The connector of the wiring harness BLUE instead of earlier BLACK.

Adapter cable 1, part number EG 113 10 100, for connection of the 
vehicle's harness to L-jetronic tester ETJ 002.02

Adapter cable 2, part number EG 113 50 100, for connection of the ECU to 
L-jetronic tester ETJ 002.02

The adapter cables can be ordered at a Datsun/Nissan representative.
"

Best regards

Torbj?rn Forsman

Tom Visel wrote:
> How certain are you on this?  I have a reason for asking - another shop 
> just asked me to come over and resurrect their 1978 (11/'77) 280Z 
> restoration project.  They have two ECUs, both JECS, neither of which 
> run the car.  Are you saying that Nissan used straight L-jet before July 
> '81, and these two ECUs are both incorrect?  This might be consistent, 
> as the car never ran the whole time they had it in their shop.  Now that 
> I got the plug wires in order, it will run on brake cleaner.  Both of 
> the ECUs are p/n A11-601 000.
> 
> Thanks for the help,
> TomV
> 
> 
> Torbj?rn Forsman wrote:
> 
>> The 280 ZX used Bosch L-jetronic on cars manufactured up to June 1981. 
>> From July 1981 on, they use a japanese injection system (made by JECS, 
>> Japan Electronic Control Systems) which is very similar to L-jetronic. 
>> But beware, although the japanese ECU uses the same 35-pin connector 
>> as L-jetronic, the pinning is completely different!
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Torbj?rn Forsman
>>
>> Ian Molton wrote:
>>
>>> Hey there.
>>>
>>> Well, I've taken on another project (despite my daily driver being in 
>>> such bad shape - I must be mad).
>>>
>>> I've acquired a Datsun 280 ZX as a restoration project.
>>>
>>> Questions about the engine (which I havent seen yet).
>>>
>>> 1) Is it a Bosch L-Jet as I've seen mentioned on some sites ?
>>> 2) Can the injection system be replaced with something more modern (I 
>>> know the existing one is in bad shape) like Megasquirt? Has this 
>>> 'been done' on this engine ?
>>> 3) I know the engine can be turbo'd so any solution I add now I would 
>>> like to be able to use after adding the turbo.
>>> 4) I have zero experience of petrols - this one has been standing for 
>>> 6 years so I assume its going to need some TLC to get it running 
>>> again. A friend has said SOP is to pull the plugs and pour a little 
>>> oil in each cylinder then turn by hand before cranking, then 
>>> reinserting plugs, then going for a start. That seems sensible - but 
>>> is it enough ?
>>>
>>> any and all advice would be appreciated.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 



From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu  Tue Jun  6 04:49:41 2006
From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F6rn_Forsman?=)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:49:41 +0200
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <E5D278B6-457F-4E23-B6A3-979BF26BA1C6@comcast.net>
References: <E5D278B6-457F-4E23-B6A3-979BF26BA1C6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <44854FB5.8000206@gengas.nu>

It is definitively no problem to use E85 (at least the E85 fuel
available in Sweden) in old carbureted cars.
Usually, the conversion is just a matter of changing to bigger main
jets. An area increase of about 30 %, i.e. a diameter increase of 15 % ,
will often work well.
To get good fuel economy, the ignition timing can be adjusted somewhat
(typically 5-7 degrees) earlier than for gasoline.
Furthermore, it is important to have good intake air preheating. On old
cars with a hand operated preheating flap, it can usually be left in the
"winter" position all year around. In case of thermostat controlled
preheating, make sure that it operates as intended and, if possible, try
to adjust the thermostat for a higher temperature than usual.

On an old car, there is often much gum residue from gasoline in the fuel
system. This residue will dissolve in E85 and may then clog the fuel
filter(s). It is common to have to replace the fuel filter and possibly
clean the carb several times during the first months on E85. Don't
forget the filters that might be integrated in the tank armature, fuel
pump and carb!
Old, brittle fuel hoses might become leaky when the gum deposits are
washed away (perhaps the rubber is so porous that the gum was necessary
for sealing).


Best regards

Torbj?rn Forsman

Frederick Trient wrote:
> Hello out there.
> I'm brand new to the list so I hope my questions won't be too basic  for 
> any of you. The rising price of gas has made me think of  improving the 
> mpg for my '65 El Camino. At about 11 mpg with an  Edelbrock 4 barrel 
> carb it's getting pretty expensive to drive.  Another reason for me to 
> consider f.i. is the possibility of E85 gas  becoming available. I'm 
> going on the assumption that fuel injection  is necessary to burn the 
> E85 stuff. Is that correct? If so, it seems  that it would be possible 
> to switch, on the fly, from mapping for  straight unleaded gas to 
> mapping for E85 with a box somewhere on the  dashboard. I'm thinking 
> that it would be necessary to have different  mapping for each type of 
> fuel.
> Would appreciate any feedback you guys could give me.
> TIA,
> Fred
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 




From five10man at commspeed.net  Tue Jun  6 09:46:01 2006
From: five10man at commspeed.net (Tom Visel)
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 07:46:01 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
In-Reply-To: <44854F6B.1060702@gengas.nu>
References: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com>
	<447F52DA.50703@gengas.nu>	<4484B45F.80209@commspeed.net>
	<44854F6B.1060702@gengas.nu>
Message-ID: <44859529.1040303@commspeed.net>

Many thanks.  That will (hopefully) help me avoid headaches during 
diagnosis.
TomV

Torbj?rn Forsman wrote:

> Well, I took the information from a "service message" from the swedish 
> Bosch organization (Group 250 no 5, 1982.04.21). Now when i read it 
> another time, it seems like also the earlier ECUs were manufactured by 
> JECS, but pin compatible to Bosch L-jetronic.
> It says the following (directly translated from swedish):
>
> "
> Usage of Bosch L-jetronic tester on Datsun
> ------------------------------------------
> Datsun model S 130 = 280ZX  is imported to Sweden with L-jetronic of 
> the JECS brand. Model 910 (Bluebird) is available in Sweden only with 
> carburetor or diesel. Model S 110 is not imported to Sweden.
>
> Bosch L-jetronic tester ETJ 002.02 (analogue) can not directly be 
> connected to the L-jetronic system on Datsun S 130 manufactured from 
> July 1981 on due to changed connections in the ECU and connector. To 
> test wiring harness and ECU of the new model, two adapter cables are 
> necessary. On cars before July 1981, the tester can be directly 
> connected.
>
> WARNING:
> Connection of the tester without adapter cables to the L-jetronic 
> system in cars manufactured from July 1981 on will cause damage to the 
> ECU and wiring harness due to short circuit!
>
> Identification on ECUs of the new model:
> ----------------------------------------
> 1. Instruction decal with english text on the bottom side of the ECU.
> 2. The connector of the wiring harness BLUE instead of earlier BLACK.
>
> Adapter cable 1, part number EG 113 10 100, for connection of the 
> vehicle's harness to L-jetronic tester ETJ 002.02
>
> Adapter cable 2, part number EG 113 50 100, for connection of the ECU 
> to L-jetronic tester ETJ 002.02
>
> The adapter cables can be ordered at a Datsun/Nissan representative.
> "
>
> Best regards
>
> Torbj?rn Forsman
>
> Tom Visel wrote:
>
>> How certain are you on this?  I have a reason for asking - another 
>> shop just asked me to come over and resurrect their 1978 (11/'77) 
>> 280Z restoration project.  They have two ECUs, both JECS, neither of 
>> which run the car.  Are you saying that Nissan used straight L-jet 
>> before July '81, and these two ECUs are both incorrect?  This might 
>> be consistent, as the car never ran the whole time they had it in 
>> their shop.  Now that I got the plug wires in order, it will run on 
>> brake cleaner.  Both of the ECUs are p/n A11-601 000.
>>
>> Thanks for the help,
>> TomV
>>
>>
>> Torbj?rn Forsman wrote:
>>
>>> The 280 ZX used Bosch L-jetronic on cars manufactured up to June 
>>> 1981. From July 1981 on, they use a japanese injection system (made 
>>> by JECS, Japan Electronic Control Systems) which is very similar to 
>>> L-jetronic. But beware, although the japanese ECU uses the same 
>>> 35-pin connector as L-jetronic, the pinning is completely different!
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Torbj?rn Forsman
>>>
>>> Ian Molton wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey there.
>>>>
>>>> Well, I've taken on another project (despite my daily driver being 
>>>> in such bad shape - I must be mad).
>>>>
>>>> I've acquired a Datsun 280 ZX as a restoration project.
>>>>
>>>> Questions about the engine (which I havent seen yet).
>>>>
>>>> 1) Is it a Bosch L-Jet as I've seen mentioned on some sites ?
>>>> 2) Can the injection system be replaced with something more modern 
>>>> (I know the existing one is in bad shape) like Megasquirt? Has this 
>>>> 'been done' on this engine ?
>>>> 3) I know the engine can be turbo'd so any solution I add now I 
>>>> would like to be able to use after adding the turbo.
>>>> 4) I have zero experience of petrols - this one has been standing 
>>>> for 6 years so I assume its going to need some TLC to get it 
>>>> running again. A friend has said SOP is to pull the plugs and pour 
>>>> a little oil in each cylinder then turn by hand before cranking, 
>>>> then reinserting plugs, then going for a start. That seems sensible 
>>>> - but is it enough ?
>>>>
>>>> any and all advice would be appreciated.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>


From higrafey at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 09:08:57 2006
From: higrafey at gmail.com (Andy Harvilla)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:08:57 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Jeep/Chrysler ECM reprogramming
Message-ID: <75f8e6f60606070708o34fc7bc1qcbe2419d17d3949f@mail.gmail.com>

Hello there,

I've been frequenting the DIY PROM board over at Thirdgen.org for a
while (member blue86iroc), working on tuning my '86 IROC.  I'm still a
newbie with this stuff (an eternal newbie, haha), but things are sorta
kinda coming along.  I'd like to say hello and promise I won't be too
much of a nuisance ;-)

My other car is a '98 Jeep Cherokee, and I've been wondering if it's
possible to reprogram the ECM like my Camaro.  I know there's huge
difference between OBD-I and OBD-II, but the Power Programmer and
Superchips guys certainly know how to change the code.  There's hardly
any information on this stuff... most of what I've found regards
dealer reprogramming, which surely isn't what I'm looking for.  I'd be
tickled just to get the hexidecimal calibration data on my PC.

Whilst searching for Jeep info, I came across numerous technical
bulletins for reprogramming the ECM from the dealer.  For example, one
of them dealt with a code change to reduce spark knock.  Chrysler
listed two required updates, an "Authorized Service Update" and an
"Authorized Modification."  Both of the part numbers match updates for
other Chrysler vehicles, everything from Neons to Vipers, but they
covered other fixes.  The impression I get is that these are kinda
like cumulative updates for a wide range of applications.  Obviously
you aren't swapping Neon timing tables for Viper data, so how does
this system work?  Does the programming device read the vehicle type
from the ECM and tell the technician which updates are valid?  This
isn't really pertinent to my initial question, but a curiosity
nonetheless.  Maybe someone who's done this before has an idea of
what's really going on.

I also thought about swapping over to a GM ECM, since there's a large
user base and I'm already familiar with it.  Unfortunately, I don't
think the state inspection program would appreciate me switching from
OBD-II to I, despite the fact that I'd probably have fewer emissions
and better fuel economy.  Hmm...

Andy


From niche at iinet.net.au  Thu Jun  8 05:52:02 2006
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 18:52:02 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Ignition IGBTs, going foran upgrade
In-Reply-To: <446E073D.70607@sitecno.fi>
References: <446E073D.70607@sitecno.fi>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060608184114.027b0db0@iinet.net.au>>

At 01:58 AM 5/20/06, you wrote:
>IGBTs designed for ignition use are extremely easy to use. Active snubber circuit included and logic level drive. This is my old experimental DIS ignition project where I used IGBTs.
>
>http://www.kolumbus.fi/juha.niinikoski/DIS/Dis.htm


Thats a nice web page btw Juha, thanks  and also thanks to all who have 
responded to my initial post... :)

The darlington/ICs are, imho, cheapie old tech which chew up a few
volts and the few RB30 modules I have seen are quite variable in
quality. I've done an updated variant which gives a higher striking volts
and a higher sustained volts, runs cooler and has a couple of diagnostics.

Hopefully it will reduce fuel consumption a tad, especially if I can run
a little leaner in the cold winter weather here in Western Australia,
my initial experiments suggest the original RB30 (darlington) module
isnt as effective at firing a leaner mixture as the unit I have built but
this is influenced by the spark plug type.

For example:- The bosch 4 point plugs are great if and only if one runs the
standard tuning for the VL/RB30 or run a little richer but it is not
nearly as effective as a basic NGK conventional plug when it comes
to firing lean mixtures. The difference is like chalk and cheese and
completely reproducible and quite surprising for me <shrug>

The point also is the old rb30 module's new price is quite high and sure
I could troll for s/h units but might be worth bringing out an updated
unit and see how this fares for fuel consumption issues.

I'm curious if anyone on this list has a skyline or VL with the RB30
motor and is prepared to trial one for a few weeks with before and
after fuel figures, ie. Has anyone with that module already kept
reasonably good fuel consumption records ?



Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From dirtrider218 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  9 02:05:27 2006
From: dirtrider218 at hotmail.com (John Smith1882)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 00:05:27 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors: calculating
	fuel requirements
Message-ID: <BAY105-F112B458D7207C435CC615597880@phx.gbl>

I thought of something that will be a real hangup trying to get my 
MegaSquirt up and running. I need to be able to calculate the required fuel 
for a 400cc single cylinder engine on LPG vapor. I have to be able to 
convert liquid gasoline fuel flow at whatever pressure to gaseous propane 
flow through the same injectors(three 30lb injectors available or four 
26lb). Can anyone help with some formulas or even just links to anywhere 
that show me how to figure out how much injector I'll need?




From phil at injec.com  Fri Jun  9 05:40:14 2006
From: phil at injec.com (Phil Lamovie)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:40:14 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors: 
	calculatingfuel requirements
References: <BAY105-F112B458D7207C435CC615597880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4489500E.7C70ED18@injec.com>


Hi John,

Without specifying the pressure and temperature of the activity
it is impossible to calculate the equivalence in litres of flow per
minute.

You don't say how you intend to produce the vapour. If you are using
a converter with an internal regulator or some other form of pressure
control that will answer some of your question. The temperature of the
vapour will be more difficult to determine.

That said you also need to determine the propane/butane mix so that
you can correct for energy per unit volume.

As a theoretical exercise it's doable but if  you want is to use a petrol
map and a calculator to determine the "corrected" ms pulse width for
LPG you are going to be disappointed. There are many variables such
as injector opening time vs pressure that you are not going to have
data for without doing the tests yourself.

The fastest way to get an answer is to run the engine on an engine dyno
and use a 4 gas and an ignition scope to verify the results. This map will
be empirically derived and thus have all the "corrections" built in.

If some one on the list has any data on the "Boemo" vapour injectors
used on the 6 cylinder 4.0 litre Ford in Australia  that may be a big help.

HTH

Phil





From higrafey at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 13:02:25 2006
From: higrafey at gmail.com (Andy Harvilla)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 14:02:25 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors:
	calculatingfuel requirements
Message-ID: <75f8e6f60606091102i2fe752d3tc38d46ffe15c00e4@mail.gmail.com>

John,

I've been working on a similar project involving an internal
combustion engine powered by vaporous fuel, but I haven't progressed
much further than the theory and a few rough designs (been busy with
other things).  As you probably know, propane-powered vehicles have
been around for quite some time... however, all of the fuel metering
I've seen was done mechanically through a special carburetor.  Some
UPS trucks use liquefied natural gas (LNG), but I don't know if the
fuel system is computer-controlled or not (and neither does my UPS
delivery man!).

Do you have to run the fuel through the ECM?  It might be easier to
devise a simple vapor carburetor and use the computer for timing, etc.
-- that's my own route at this point.

Andy


From dirtrider218 at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  9 13:23:02 2006
From: dirtrider218 at hotmail.com (John Smith1882)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 11:23:02 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors:
	calculating fuel req.
In-Reply-To: <BAY0-MC4-F9Cw5zQQSD00107127@bay0-mc4-f9.bay0.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY105-F399142973919CD8239DDD697880@phx.gbl>

Expected fuel(vapor)) pressure will be ~40psi.

LPG comes out of portable cyclinder as vapor already unless you turn it 
upside down. No convertor necessary.

I expect the gas will get cold from the expansion, so I guess roughly 
30-40*F/0-10*C. Hopefully it won't go any lower than that.

I have no idea what the propane/butane percentages are for the average LPG 
here in the U.S. It's not critical anyway; I just need to figure out the 
numbers to "fool" the MegaSquirt into making a working basemap. For example, 
if I need 50% more propane than gasoline, I can tell the MS it's a gas 
engine that is 50% larger than what I have. However, before I can do that I 
have to know the reduction in mass flow from liquid gasoline to vapor 
propane through the same fuel injector....or something like that. I'm still 
learning about liquid/vapor/caloric values/etc.

In RE to the rest of your post that I excluded: I don't have a dyno and 
won't until I build one. I don't have an exhaust gas analyzer nor 
vepor-specific injectors and it is cost prohibitive for me to purchase 
either for this project.



>Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:40:14 +1000
>From: Phil Lamovie <phil at injec.com>
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors:
>	calculatingfuel requirements
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Message-ID: <4489500E.7C70ED18 at injec.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>Hi John,
>
>Without specifying the pressure and temperature of the activity
>it is impossible to calculate the equivalence in litres of flow per
>minute.
>
>You don't say how you intend to produce the vapour. If you are using
>a converter with an internal regulator or some other form of pressure
>control that will answer some of your question. The temperature of the
>vapour will be more difficult to determine.
>
>That said you also need to determine the propane/butane mix so that
>you can correct for energy per unit volume.




From head2wind at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 14:23:06 2006
From: head2wind at gmail.com (Ken Nelson)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:23:06 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors:
	calculating fuel req.
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F399142973919CD8239DDD697880@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY0-MC4-F9Cw5zQQSD00107127@bay0-mc4-f9.bay0.hotmail.com>
	<BAY105-F399142973919CD8239DDD697880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <57b06acb0606091223n2ab8f022wa752150b6389bc3a@mail.gmail.com>

There are a couple ways to deal here that I would try given you don't want
to get different injectors:
Increase injector pulse by 40-50%
double up the injectors and maintain pulse time, if low impedence: series
(total Ohms ~6) if high impedence then parallel.

You don't need to "fool" the MS, just tell it what to do.  The size of the
engine has little to do with fuel.  Desired power output and VE has
everything to do with choosing the appropriate size of injectors.

You may have freezing problems at 40psi.  Lower will get you less problems
with this, however you give up flow, not much but even still you would have
to increase PW of injectors indirectly proportional to fuel pressure if all
else stays the same.   Once you hit about 90% duty cycle you are at/beyond
staturation and you will not have any head room to work with if you need
more fuel


On 6/9/06, John Smith1882 <dirtrider218 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Expected fuel(vapor)) pressure will be ~40psi.
>
> LPG comes out of portable cyclinder as vapor already unless you turn it
> upside down. No convertor necessary.
>
> I expect the gas will get cold from the expansion, so I guess roughly
> 30-40*F/0-10*C. Hopefully it won't go any lower than that.
>
> I have no idea what the propane/butane percentages are for the average LPG
> here in the U.S. It's not critical anyway; I just need to figure out the
> numbers to "fool" the MegaSquirt into making a working basemap. For
> example,
> if I need 50% more propane than gasoline, I can tell the MS it's a gas
> engine that is 50% larger than what I have. However, before I can do that
> I
> have to know the reduction in mass flow from liquid gasoline to vapor
> propane through the same fuel injector....or something like that. I'm
> still
> learning about liquid/vapor/caloric values/etc.
>
> In RE to the rest of your post that I excluded: I don't have a dyno and
> won't until I build one. I don't have an exhaust gas analyzer nor
> vepor-specific injectors and it is cost prohibitive for me to purchase
> either for this project.
>
>
>
> >Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:40:14 +1000
> >From: Phil Lamovie <phil at injec.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors:
> >       calculatingfuel requirements
> >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >Message-ID: <4489500E.7C70ED18 at injec.com>
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> >
> >Hi John,
> >
> >Without specifying the pressure and temperature of the activity
> >it is impossible to calculate the equivalence in litres of flow per
> >minute.
> >
> >You don't say how you intend to produce the vapour. If you are using
> >a converter with an internal regulator or some other form of pressure
> >control that will answer some of your question. The temperature of the
> >vapour will be more difficult to determine.
> >
> >That said you also need to determine the propane/butane mix so that
> >you can correct for energy per unit volume.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


From automotivelectronics at hotmail.com  Fri Jun  9 22:49:00 2006
From: automotivelectronics at hotmail.com (Gary Spooner)
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 23:49:00 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] LPG vapor injection with gasoline
	injectors:calculatingfuel requirements
In-Reply-To: <75f8e6f60606091102i2fe752d3tc38d46ffe15c00e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY114-F212C2B074C85D1AF25382D8890@phx.gbl>


It would be difficult to create conditions within the engine for combustion 
of gasoline vapors (manifold injection). The problem is vapor point of 
gasoline versus propane. Here is a suggestion that would work. High pressure 
direct injection of fuel into a combustion chamber pocket exhausting into 
the area above the piston. Have ignition occur slightly late of the point of 
injection to allow combustion of the spray being localized at that point and 
preventing the conditions for unstable combustion which do occur where fuel 
ratios/temperature are not always consistent Flame travel and peak cylinder 
pressures are a factor with this design because of the latency of total 
combustion (piston outruns flame).  Just a few thoughts about the mechanical 
side.

Design a high pressure fuel system and maintain head pressure. Step up fuel 
pressure @ point of injection to further increase atomization the theory 
behind that is simple. Expose the fuel to as much oxygen as possible paying 
attention to flame color. This is where the next version of computer 
controls comes into play.

Drop the 02 sensor. This technology offers after the fact opinions of what 
is going on inside the combustion chamber. I have never appreciated the 
parallel feed of multiple combustion chambers into one pipe and sticking a 
02 sensor to sample a boundary layer of exhaust. I suggest have the computer 
verify combustion by analyzing light emissions generated within the 
combustion chamber during the combustion process. Each chamber fitted with 
the device and the computer given the ability to correct injection pulse 
width for each chamber. Imagine the diagnostic capabilities for this design.

Code P0387564 (lol) #3 cylinder irregular flame front travel observed..


The chamber temperatures would increase making it a requirement to maintain 
EGR but that is okay. OR! Even variable valve timing to lower peak cylinder 
pressures before compression. Hell with it, lets go 2 stroke!

G.Spooner/rpm-research.com

_________________________________________________________________
Movies, Music & More! Visit Sympatico / MSN Entertainment 
http://entertainment.sympatico.msn.ca/



From dirtrider218 at hotmail.com  Sat Jun 10 15:33:33 2006
From: dirtrider218 at hotmail.com (John Smith1882)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 13:33:33 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors: req fuel
In-Reply-To: <BAY0-MC4-F1HmFssIhJ001fd904@bay0-mc4-f1.bay0.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY105-F232F5719E7184225BD74DB97890@phx.gbl>

If I don't want to buy an automotive grade gas diffuser, then the MegaSquirt 
I already have must control the fuel. I'll be running MegaSuirt 'n' 
Spark-Extra code with a turbo anti-lag function(if I can figure out why this 
altered verison of 025 is somewhat unstable), so it will handle spark as 
well. It has to be able to richen the mixture on decelleration in order to 
do this.

>Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 14:02:25 -0400
>From: "Andy Harvilla" <higrafey at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors:
>	calculatingfuel requirements
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>John,
>
>Do you have to run the fuel through the ECM?  It might be easier to
>devise a simple vapor carburetor and use the computer for timing, etc.
>-- that's my own route at this point.
>
>Andy


Wait, if I increase pulswidth by 50%, thats 50% more fuel. If I double the 
injectors, thats 100% more fuel....

I know I don't need to fool the MS, but I do need to know what conversions 
are needed in order to tell it what to do. Like I mentioned, I have three 
30lb/hour(315cc/min) Lucas injectors that are low-impedance(4 ohms) and four 
270cc/min(26lb/hr) Denso injectors that are high impedance (12 ohms). With 
those options I can have 90lb/hr(950cc/min) available or 
1100cc/min(104lb/hr) respectively. They are rated for gasoline flow either 
at 100% or 80% DC, not sure. I just need to know how to convert that into 
LP-gas flow.

>Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:23:06 -0700
>From: "Ken Nelson" <head2wind at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: LPG vapor injection with gasoline
>	injectors:	calculating fuel req.
>
>There are a couple ways to deal here that I would try given you don't want
>to get different injectors:
>Increase injector pulse by 40-50%
>double up the injectors and maintain pulse time, if low impedence: series
>(total Ohms ~6) if high impedence then parallel.
>
>You don't need to "fool" the MS, just tell it what to do.  The size of the
>engine has little to do with fuel.  Desired power output and VE has
>everything to do with choosing the appropriate size of injectors.
>
>You may have freezing problems at 40psi.  Lower will get you less problems
>with this, however you give up flow, not much but even still you would have
>to increase PW of injectors indirectly proportional to fuel pressure if all
>else stays the same.   Once you hit about 90% duty cycle you are at/beyond
>staturation and you will not have any head room to work with if you need
>more fuel




From glogovacs at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Jun 11 16:23:48 2006
From: glogovacs at yahoo.co.uk (Stevan Glogovac)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 22:23:48 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Reversing EPROM decryption board
Message-ID: <20060611212348.75718.qmail@web25305.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hello all,
   
  I have an ECU based on 68hc11 microcontroller. It has an external EPROM for storing firmware and calibration data. However, the contents of the EPROM is encrypted, the image my EPROM programmator is reading is clearly different from the one 68hc11 is seeing when running.
   
  Two (read protected) PEEL chips are used to make decryption. One is intercepting data bus lines between EPROM and CPU, the other is "listening" the address bus and is also connected to the first PEEL. Addresses are fed directly to the EPROM (no folding whatsoever).
   
  There are two unencrypted zones in the EPROM: the one is at the very end, where the interrupt vectors addresses are stored and the other is where reset vector is pointing to (area of about 128 bytes is unencrypted there).
   
  First, I wrote a small program to send the chip contents to the serial port, with a PC listening on the other side. The code runs fine if I connect the chip directly to the data bus (so code is ok). I located the code in unencrypted area of the EPROM to avoid PEELs atempting to decrypt it... however, it did not run when the EPROM was connected to the data bus using PEELs... Nothing was comming out of the serial port, so I realized my code has not been executed at all. 
   
  So PEELs somehow realized that I was executing a fake code... 
   
  Ok, I tried next thing - I changed one of the interrupt vectors to point to my "trojan" code. This was input capture interrupt, and it should be triggered at any time crank trigger sends a pulse... The rest of the chip contents was stock, just one vector address changed and a few bytes written for the actual code of the trojan... however, this did not work again... although stock code was all over the place, it was clear that nothing was executing as it should... 
   
  Then, used completely stock code, and only altered one address in the interrupt vector table. UNUSED interrupt vector!!! The code didn't run anymore. So, PEELs somehow realized that the interrupt vector table has been tampered. 
   
  Then I rewrote my trojan to let the interrupt table remain the same and to let the stock code execute in the unencrypted section... and added just one jump to my trojan at the end of unencrypted section... this didn't work either....
   
  I went one step forward - I "booted" the ECU with stock chip, then while keeping the /RESET low, I changed the chip to the one containing my trojan. I expected the PEELs to be fully unlocked by then - and ready to execute my code... however, PEELs got it even this time and the thing didn't run... How on Earth... PEELs are only connected to the address and data buses... no way could they recognize a reset. But they got locked, probably by seeing the reset vector being read again...
   
  It can't be the chip checksum, as any checksum routine could be executed only after my trojan has finished it job...
   
  I am getting desperate about this, as I could not think of something new to try. 
   
  If somebody can give me assistance, that would be great. Also an explanation of how such systems work would be of use...
   
  I could email original chip contents and the trojan that I wrote for dumping the contents of the EPROM... if anyone is interested...
   
  many thanks,
  NG

 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

From david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 11 17:45:28 2006
From: david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com (David Rowley)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
Message-ID: <20060611224528.285.qmail@web60915.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi all,
   
  I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228 duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670 throttle body injection unit.
   
  I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to closed loop mode.  When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the point where it will barely run.  Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture when it appears it is not?  I have tried two O2 sensors with the same result.  Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
   
  I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on the O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to run right, until now.  
   
  Has anyone out there seen anything like this?  
   
  Thanks,
   
  Dave
   

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From five10man at commspeed.net  Sun Jun 11 18:34:23 2006
From: five10man at commspeed.net (Tom Visel)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:34:23 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060611224528.285.qmail@web60915.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20060611224528.285.qmail@web60915.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <448CA87F.4040704@commspeed.net>

Look at your oxygen sensor voltage, preferably with an oscilloscope, 
though even a scan tool or a high-impedance DVOM would do, as long as it 
doesn't do too bad a job of "smothering" away the sensor's natural 
jitters with its averaging function.  Some meters that have a bar graph 
at the bottom will let the bar graph twitch while the numbers get 
averaged out to something smooth and useless.  A bar-graph ricer gauge 
will do also; the cheaper ones are better for this purpose because they 
let the original signal show through without cleaning it up for prime time.

What you are looking for is movement of the sensor voltage - is it 
jittering rich/lean or rich/richer, or is it parked at some voltage?  If 
it is parked at some rich (>450 mV) reading and staying there, odds are 
the sensor is dead.  If it is reading over 1 volt, odds are you have a 
bad ground for the sensor, and stray electrons are making their way home 
on the oxygen sensor line.  This is more prevalent on vehicles with 
headers, due to the gasket trickery that often makes for a less than 
perfect ground at the flanges.  Heated oxygen sensors have even more 
problems like this, because the 12 volts supplied to the heater needs 
its own GOOD ground, and it will use whatever other wire is available if 
the heater ground wire is bad.  This is more of a problem on fresh 
custom builds and vehicles with older sensors.

To quick-test your oxygen sensor ground, unplug the alternator while 
watching the O2S output.  Did it improve?  If so, bad ground.  More 
electrical load = more strain on grounds.  Another method of testing is 
to run a jumper cable from the battery negative post to the housing of 
the O2 sensor to act as an extra ground.  If that improves the signal 
quality, you know your grounds need work.

BTW, your oxygen sensor can be switching rich/lean at the sensor - going 
from .25 to .75 volts, say - and a bad ground will turn that into a 
signal that varies from .6 to 1.1 volts, which the ECM would interpret 
as all rich, all the time.

HTH!
TomV

David Rowley wrote:

>Hi all,
>   
>  I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228 duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670 throttle body injection unit.
>   
>  I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to closed loop mode.  When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the point where it will barely run.  Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture when it appears it is not?  I have tried two O2 sensors with the same result.  Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
>   
>  I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on the O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to run right, until now.  
>   
>  Has anyone out there seen anything like this?  
>   
>  Thanks,
>   
>  Dave
>   
>
> __________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
>http://mail.yahoo.com 
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>  
>


From michael at fastmail.ca  Sun Jun 11 19:43:46 2006
From: michael at fastmail.ca (Michael Richards)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 00:43:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060611224528.285.qmail@web60915.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060612004348.67527861477@mail.fastmail.ca>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...

First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to constantly
educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband sensors.

Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in fact
you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an ignition
timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as well. If you
accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause incorrect readings.

My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated and
accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper mixture
display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1 under
power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If you
properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it leaner
without any ill effects for fuel economy.

-Michael

> I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
> duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670
> throttle body injection unit.
> 
> I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
> closed loop mode.  When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the
> AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the
> point where it will barely run.  Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture
> when it appears it is not?  I have tried two O2 sensors with the same
> result.  Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
> 
> I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on the
> O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to run
> right, until now.
>
_________________________________________________________________
    http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians



From cfrederick at new.rr.com  Sun Jun 11 20:23:28 2006
From: cfrederick at new.rr.com (C. J. Frederick)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 20:23:28 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060612004348.67527861477@mail.fastmail.ca>
References: <20060611224528.285.qmail@web60915.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200606120119.k5C1JX7a012639@ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com>

All great info.  Begging your indulgence on your topic, I saw an O2 dash
display at a race last month.  It was in a Buick Grand National and when
the car was idling, it updated a few times a second.  It had a blue
digital, 3 digit display and was built into the dash.  The owner said he
didn't know anything about it as it was in the car when he bought it.  He
thought it was originally made for an import.  It wasn't a multi-function
display with data logging, just a simple constant reading, rectangular
readout.  Anyone ever see one of these?  I have searched all other sources
known to me.  
Sorry for the interruption,

CJ

>On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...
>
>First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
>useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to constantly
>educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband sensors.
>
>Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
>If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in fact
>you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an ignition
>timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as well. If you
>accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause incorrect readings.
>
>My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
>has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated and
>accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper mixture
>display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1 under
>power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If you
>properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it leaner
>without any ill effects for fuel economy.
>




From djzkb at comcast.net  Sun Jun 11 20:33:41 2006
From: djzkb at comcast.net (Mike Anders (Nissantalk.com / Altimas.net))
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:33:41 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
References: <20060611224528.285.qmail@web60915.mail.yahoo.com>
	<200606120119.k5C1JX7a012639@ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c68dc0$3cbd1620$6b01a8c0@sesamex3b87q3p>

A good "beater" wideband sensor kit is the AEM UEGO, easy to install, cheap,
works pretty well.

----- Original Message -----
From: "C. J. Frederick" <cfrederick at new.rr.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..


> All great info.  Begging your indulgence on your topic, I saw an O2 dash
> display at a race last month.  It was in a Buick Grand National and when
> the car was idling, it updated a few times a second.  It had a blue
> digital, 3 digit display and was built into the dash.  The owner said he
> didn't know anything about it as it was in the car when he bought it.  He
> thought it was originally made for an import.  It wasn't a multi-function
> display with data logging, just a simple constant reading, rectangular
> readout.  Anyone ever see one of these?  I have searched all other sources
> known to me.
> Sorry for the interruption,
>
> CJ
>
> >On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...
> >
> >First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
> >useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to constantly
> >educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband sensors.
> >
> >Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
> >If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in fact
> >you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an ignition
> >timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as well. If you
> >accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause incorrect
readings.
> >
> >My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
> >has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated and
> >accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper mixture
> >display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1 under
> >power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If you
> >properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it leaner
> >without any ill effects for fuel economy.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/360 - Release Date: 6/9/2006
>
>



From aoturneriii at tds.net  Sun Jun 11 21:28:39 2006
From: aoturneriii at tds.net (Arby)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 22:28:39 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
References: <20060612004348.67527861477@mail.fastmail.ca>
Message-ID: <012a01c68dc7$ebf443a0$0300a8c0@NATALIE>

Where can you find an O2 sensor like this?  I would need it to work with a
1227747 computer and something inexpensive would be best (obviously).

Thank you,
Arby


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Richards" <michael at fastmail.ca>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..


> On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...
>
> First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
> useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to constantly
> educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband sensors.
>
> Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
> If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in fact
> you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an ignition
> timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as well. If you
> accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause incorrect 
> readings.
>
> My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
> has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated and
> accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper mixture
> display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1 under
> power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If you
> properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it leaner
> without any ill effects for fuel economy.
>
> -Michael
>
>> I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
>> duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670
>> throttle body injection unit.
>>
>> I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
>> closed loop mode.  When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the
>> AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the
>> point where it will barely run.  Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture
>> when it appears it is not?  I have tried two O2 sensors with the same
>> result.  Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
>>
>> I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on the
>> O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to run
>> right, until now.
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
>    http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi 



From michael at fastmail.ca  Sun Jun 11 22:29:10 2006
From: michael at fastmail.ca (Michael Richards)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:29:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <012a01c68dc7$ebf443a0$0300a8c0@NATALIE>
Message-ID: <20060612032911.838E886133E@mail.fastmail.ca>

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 22:28:39 -0400, Arby wrote...

> Where can you find an O2 sensor like this?  I would need it to work
> with a 1227747 computer and something inexpensive would be best
> (obviously).

The majority of commercially available widebands have a narrowband
output.  I would recomend looking at the PLX. I use the techedge and
have for years it has said feature as well. I can't recommend the
innovate for intellectual property reasons but I'd rather not get all
fired up about that.

-Michael
_________________________________________________________________
    http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians



From dpaauw at netwiz.net  Sun Jun 11 22:58:27 2006
From: dpaauw at netwiz.net (Don Paauw)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:58:27 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Reversing EPROM decryption board
In-Reply-To: <20060611212348.75718.qmail@web25305.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20060611235827.00907bf0@216.251.43.97>

NG (related to Stevan?),
It seems that since the address lines are direct, the decryption cannot be
changing on-the-fly (i.e. LFSR, state machine, etc.) so I would think that
every
address would be decrypted the same way every time.  A brute force approach
would be
to have a RAM bank twice the width of the data bus and on every EPROM read,
write the
EPROM and the decrypted data into the RAM.  Over time, you will get lot of
adresses
and their decoding.  Some software munging may show a pattern and/or you
may be able
to use a non-critical area to try your trojan again.  I'm not familiar with
the
PEEL or 68hc11 but it wouldn't take much to make sure that 128 bytes plus
some vectors
exactly match but, obviously, it's silly check the entire EPROM, other than
by checksum
or by sectored checksum.  Actually, you may want to consider that and make
sure that
the unprotected area checksum always matches.  The rest of this could be
moot.   But
checksums can be easily convoluted by simply shifting bytes or feeding
through LFSRs
so this could be a frustrating exercise.

This assumes that passive measures are required.  The first brute force
method would
be to just walk the address bus and observe the results but from your
experiences, I
would think they've anticipated that and found a way to detect it.

I realize that you are trying to achieve this by just reprogramming the
EPROM but I
don't see, offhand, anything you've missed in that approach, except
experimenting with
encrypted bytes, which could be dangerous (engine-wise) and probably
inconclusive.
Just to ease the hardware
approach, assuming you don't have access to a logic analyzer and the PEEL
(and everyting
else) isn't clock-speed-sensitive, you could use a PC to drive the clock
and drive/monitor the
address/data lines. I'm not sure this would be easier than building a
dedicated monitoring
board, but it would allow you to put just about everything under software
control and make
other attacks easier.

-- Don




At 10:23 PM 6/11/06 +0100, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>   
>  I have an ECU based on 68hc11 microcontroller. It has an external EPROM
for storing firmware and calibration data. However, the contents of the
EPROM is encrypted, the image my EPROM programmator is reading is clearly
different from the one 68hc11 is seeing when running.
>   
>  Two (read protected) PEEL chips are used to make decryption. One is
intercepting data bus lines between EPROM and CPU, the other is "listening"
the address bus and is also connected to the first PEEL. Addresses are fed
directly to the EPROM (no folding whatsoever).
>   
>  There are two unencrypted zones in the EPROM: the one is at the very
end, where the interrupt vectors addresses are stored and the other is
where reset vector is pointing to (area of about 128 bytes is unencrypted
there).
>   
>  First, I wrote a small program to send the chip contents to the serial
port, with a PC listening on the other side. The code runs fine if I
connect the chip directly to the data bus (so code is ok). I located the
code in unencrypted area of the EPROM to avoid PEELs atempting to decrypt
it... however, it did not run when the EPROM was connected to the data bus
using PEELs... Nothing was comming out of the serial port, so I realized my
code has not been executed at all. 
>   
>  So PEELs somehow realized that I was executing a fake code... 
>   
>  Ok, I tried next thing - I changed one of the interrupt vectors to point
to my "trojan" code. This was input capture interrupt, and it should be
triggered at any time crank trigger sends a pulse... The rest of the chip
contents was stock, just one vector address changed and a few bytes written
for the actual code of the trojan... however, this did not work again...
although stock code was all over the place, it was clear that nothing was
executing as it should... 
>   
>  Then, used completely stock code, and only altered one address in the
interrupt vector table. UNUSED interrupt vector!!! The code didn't run
anymore. So, PEELs somehow realized that the interrupt vector table has
been tampered. 
>   
>  Then I rewrote my trojan to let the interrupt table remain the same and
to let the stock code execute in the unencrypted section... and added just
one jump to my trojan at the end of unencrypted section... this didn't work
either....
>   
>  I went one step forward - I "booted" the ECU with stock chip, then while
keeping the /RESET low, I changed the chip to the one containing my trojan.
I expected the PEELs to be fully unlocked by then - and ready to execute my
code... however, PEELs got it even this time and the thing didn't run...
How on Earth... PEELs are only connected to the address and data buses...
no way could they recognize a reset. But they got locked, probably by
seeing the reset vector being read again...
>   
>  It can't be the chip checksum, as any checksum routine could be executed
only after my trojan has finished it job...
>   
>  I am getting desperate about this, as I could not think of something new
to try. 
>   
>  If somebody can give me assistance, that would be great. Also an
explanation of how such systems work would be of use...
>   
>  I could email original chip contents and the trojan that I wrote for
dumping the contents of the EPROM... if anyone is interested...
>   
>  many thanks,
>  NG
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>


From automotivelectronics at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 12 01:28:38 2006
From: automotivelectronics at hotmail.com (Gary Spooner)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 02:28:38 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060612004348.67527861477@mail.fastmail.ca>
Message-ID: <BAY114-F2193B5AEF4341157DA5930D88F0@phx.gbl>

Hello.

Regarding narrow band 02's I have to disagree with the opinion about narrow 
band inabilities to provide and accurate indication of 02 content. This 
sensor has proven over the years to maintain 02 content within emission 
specs where the algorithm is not biased to look for an alternate backup if 
closed loop info fails. Narrow band sensors are capable of millisecond 
response and range even to the point of indicating incomplete combustion 
from a cylinder or cylinders if observed on a scope with resolution 200m/sec 
and .25Mhz.

Tuning accompanying the use of a scanner to indicate 02 voltage, 
interrogator values and long term conditions, using the factory computer, 
have found tuning to be very easy and let the computer scrub the converter 
even at idle speed. Factory constants have to be changed but the result of 
the adjustments is impressive. I have setup numerous boats and even tailored 
a rat?s nest of mismatched parts creating algorithms that work. Don't jump 
on the wide band wagon (lol) yet. Narrow works well to...

Gary/RPM Research
rpm-research.com

_________________________________________________________________
Auto news & advice ? check out Sympatico / MSN Autos 
http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/Default.aspx



From michael at fastmail.ca  Mon Jun 12 09:44:59 2006
From: michael at fastmail.ca (Michael Richards)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:44:59 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <BAY114-F2193B5AEF4341157DA5930D88F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20060612144508.B5AA886170D@mail.fastmail.ca>

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 02:28:38 -0400, Gary Spooner wrote...

The narrowband thing is not really an opinion, it's based on scientific
fact. Narrowband sensors are designed to discriminate between richer
than 14.7 and leaner than 14.7. Nothing more. You can get a vague idea
of the actual AFR is by looking at the actual output away from the
switching point but it is by no means accurate.

OEMs have been using narrowband sensors for years because it is in a
fixed and tested location and since the tuning is fixed the temps are
also predictable. In the original poster's case we're dealing with a
modified engine producing more than stock output numbers. Very difficult
to predict the temps of that sensor and the setup is outside the OEM's
designed application.

-Michael

> Regarding narrow band 02's I have to disagree with the opinion about
> narrow band inabilities to provide and accurate indication of 02
> content. This sensor has proven over the years to maintain 02 content
> within emission specs where the algorithm is not biased to look for an
> alternate backup if closed loop info fails. Narrow band sensors are
> capable of millisecond response and range even to the point of
> indicating incomplete combustion from a cylinder or cylinders if
> observed on a scope with resolution 200m/sec and .25Mhz.
> 
> Tuning accompanying the use of a scanner to indicate 02 voltage,
> interrogator values and long term conditions, using the factory
> computer, have found tuning to be very easy and let the computer scrub
> the converter even at idle speed. Factory constants have to be changed
> but the result of the adjustments is impressive. I have setup numerous
> boats and even tailored a rat?s nest of mismatched parts creating
> algorithms that work. Don't jump on the wide band wagon (lol) yet.
> Narrow works well to...
> 
> Gary/RPM Research
> rpm-research.com
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Auto news & advice ? check out Sympatico / MSN Autos
> http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/Default.aspx
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
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From gpzmotoman at comcast.net  Wed Jun  7 13:04:06 2006
From: gpzmotoman at comcast.net (Frederick Trient)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 11:04:06 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: El Camino carb to EFI/FFV conversion
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F117AD65B3A20D5750AB13D97940@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-F117AD65B3A20D5750AB13D97940@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3370523D-6FCD-4BF5-B911-82B9722AAE32@comcast.net>


On Jun 5, 2006, at 12:38 PM, John Smith1882 wrote:
> (snip)

> MegaSquirt seems to be the best diy option available these days. I  
> tried screwing with binaries and roms on a Nissan system(which some  
> would say is simpler than GMs) and it is a huge pain IMO.  
> MegaSquirt is hugely flexible, massively upgradable, cheap, and  
> easy to use.
>
Yes, I'm getting the impression just from a week of probing the  
subject that MegaSquirt is the leading candidate. I will definitely  
be looking closer at it.

> In the meantime I would like to know why your EL Camino gets such  
> horrible economy......unless it has a big engine and an automatic.  
> What engine/trans/modifications does it have? How fast is it  
> usually driven? Does the trans have OD?

Don't know. Have not really spent any time retuning so it may be that  
the carb is not right. It's a 283 / Edelbrock 700cfm 4 brl / Winters  
alum intake / K&N filter / stock cast iron exhaust manif / MSD dist /  
4 spd manual trans. Internal engine mods are unknown and it is driven  
relatively sedately but predominately stop'n'go city driving. It's  
just occurred to me that I should check the choke functioning.
Thanks for replying and also for confirming my suspicion that  
different mapping is necessary. If my casual reading was close  
enough, I believe that the ethanol has a lower "latent heat" (proper  
term?) than gasoline. Have never seen a stoich. figure for straight  
ethanol or E85.

Thanks again,
Fred


From dirtrider218 at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 12 13:39:44 2006
From: dirtrider218 at hotmail.com (John Smith1882)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:39:44 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean.
In-Reply-To: <BAY0-MC8-F17BTNkO3C003b4fef@bay0-mc8-f17.bay0.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY105-F6F06BFBD7F6E377F17177978F0@phx.gbl>

Just some personal observation that may support this....Something I've 
noticed is that many OEMs omit O2 sensor input at wide open throttle and run 
on the fuel table without feedback mixture adjustment. This would make sense 
since the narrowband is only accurate during lean cruise and WOT/high load 
would require AFRs richer than 14.7:1. Am I on the right track?

>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:44:59 +0000 (UTC)
>From: "Michael Richards" <michael at fastmail.ca>
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Message-ID: <20060612144508.B5AA886170D at mail.fastmail.ca>
>Content-Type: text/plain
>
>OEMs have been using narrowband sensors for years because it is in a
>fixed and tested location and since the tuning is fixed the temps are
>also predictable. In the original poster's case we're dealing with a
>modified engine producing more than stock output numbers. Very difficult
>to predict the temps of that sensor and the setup is outside the OEM's
>designed application.
>
>-Michael




From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 12 15:37:36 2006
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 13:37:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <BAY114-F2193B5AEF4341157DA5930D88F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20060612203736.80281.qmail@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- Gary Spooner <automotivelectronics at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Regarding narrow band 02's I have to disagree with
> the opinion about narrow band inabilities to provide
> and accurate indication of 02 content.

*snip*

Leaving aside for the moment the fact that an O2
sensor only tells you what percentage of exhaust gases
are composed of unburned 02, and not how it got there
(mixture too rich?  Too lean?  Ignition timing wrong? 
Combustion chamber design?  Cam timing/overlap
issues?)...

Narrow-band 02 works great within a very narrow range,
assuming it is properly placed in the exhaust system
and the engine is reasonably "well-behaved" (i.e.,
it's not going to work quite so well with a wild cam
at idle), and assuming you're interested mainly in
feeding a catalytic converter.

As has been noted, a WBO2, whicl subject to some of
the same limitations as a narrowband O2 sensor, can be
made to operate reliably under a wider range of
conditions, and can obviously give you a much broader
range of data that might be of more use to a tuner
(assuming they remember the other factors that affect
O2 readings, and either account for them or test to
make sure they are where the "engineer" wants them to be).

| Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)       Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)|
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|   didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.   |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|     had come up again."                    -Kurt Vonnegut     |
| M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com -  http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze |

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From bigcow_610 at yahoo.com.au  Mon Jun 12 17:16:07 2006
From: bigcow_610 at yahoo.com.au (Damian Long)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:16:07 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors: req fuel
Message-ID: <20060612221607.79888.qmail@web50302.mail.yahoo.com>

Guys,
   
  You might like to check out this website. Person to talk to is Brad.
   
  http://www.profire.com.au/
   
  Seems he might have the information you are looking for.
   
  Damian

diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors: req fuel
(John Smith1882)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 13:33:33 -0700
From: "John Smith1882" 
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors:
req fuel
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

If I don't want to buy an automotive grade gas diffuser, then the MegaSquirt 
I already have must control the fuel. I'll be running MegaSuirt 'n' 
Spark-Extra code with a turbo anti-lag function(if I can figure out why this 
altered verison of 025 is somewhat unstable), so it will handle spark as 
well. It has to be able to richen the mixture on decelleration in order to 
do this.

>Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 14:02:25 -0400
>From: "Andy Harvilla" 
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors:
> calculatingfuel requirements
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>John,
>
>Do you have to run the fuel through the ECM? It might be easier to
>devise a simple vapor carburetor and use the computer for timing, etc.
>-- that's my own route at this point.
>
>Andy


Wait, if I increase pulswidth by 50%, thats 50% more fuel. If I double the 
injectors, thats 100% more fuel....

I know I don't need to fool the MS, but I do need to know what conversions 
are needed in order to tell it what to do. Like I mentioned, I have three 
30lb/hour(315cc/min) Lucas injectors that are low-impedance(4 ohms) and four 
270cc/min(26lb/hr) Denso injectors that are high impedance (12 ohms). With 
those options I can have 90lb/hr(950cc/min) available or 
1100cc/min(104lb/hr) respectively. They are rated for gasoline flow either 
at 100% or 80% DC, not sure. I just need to know how to convert that into 
LP-gas flow.

>Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 12:23:06 -0700
>From: "Ken Nelson" 
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: LPG vapor injection with gasoline
> injectors: calculating fuel req.
>
>There are a couple ways to deal here that I would try given you don't want
>to get different injectors:
>Increase injector pulse by 40-50%
>double up the injectors and maintain pulse time, if low impedence: series
>(total Ohms ~6) if high impedence then parallel.
>
>You don't need to "fool" the MS, just tell it what to do. The size of the
>engine has little to do with fuel. Desired power output and VE has
>everything to do with choosing the appropriate size of injectors.
>
>You may have freezing problems at 40psi. Lower will get you less problems
>with this, however you give up flow, not much but even still you would have
>to increase PW of injectors indirectly proportional to fuel pressure if all
>else stays the same. Once you hit about 90% duty cycle you are at/beyond
>staturation and you will not have any head room to work with if you need
>more fuel




------------------------------

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End of Diy_efi Digest, Vol 16, Issue 9
**************************************


 Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

From gas- at charter.net  Mon Jun 12 18:01:07 2006
From: gas- at charter.net (Gary)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:01:07 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean.
References: <BAY105-F6F06BFBD7F6E377F17177978F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <000201c68e75$0079fbf0$34147544@homedesktop>

Going Open Loop at WOT has little to do with the accuracy of the 
OEM NB O2 sensor. The purpose of the OEM sensor is to send 
feedback to the P(or E)CM during Closed Loop operation, letting 
it know whether the mixture is either lean of or rich of stoich or 
IOW, ~14.7. Therefore, the function of OEM sensor is that of a 
switch. That switching is performed around stoich. The sensor is 
constantly dithering from rich to lean of stoich with the PCM fuel 
command constantly adding and then removing fuel. There are 
OEM calibrations that are designed to operate in 100% CL mode. 
This impies regardless of the mode of operation,  it is maintaining 
~14.7 AFR. One such vehicle is a new turbocharged setup that
Chrysler markets.   

BTW, the voltage OEM NBO2s send back to the PCM has been 
used to tune the AFR for performance use. It should be understood
however, it is not a very reliably accurate means to verify AFR. I 
want to stress reliable here. The further from stoich the AFR strays, 
the more temperature sensitive they become, and the more impact 
temp will have on their accuracy. To consider them accurate without 
any knowledge of when they might be, makes any accuracy they 
may posess, of questionable value. Depending on the temp the sensor 
is exposed to, the AFR accuracy can vary easily by over a full #. In 
addition, the further from stoich NBO2s venture, the more impact 
very slight voltage changes will have on actual AFR, thus giving the 
same effect as lowering resolution and dulling sensitivity.   

GAS


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Smith1882" <dirtrider218 at hotmail.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean.


> Just some personal observation that may support this....Something I've 
> noticed is that many OEMs omit O2 sensor input at wide open throttle 
> and run on the fuel table without feedback mixture adjustment. This 
> would make sense since the narrowband is only accurate during lean 
> cruise and WOT/high load would require AFRs richer than 14.7:1. 
> Am I on the right track?


From spyro at f2s.com  Mon Jun 12 18:56:39 2006
From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 00:56:39 +0100
Subject: slightly long reply [Diy_efi] blown engine...
In-Reply-To: <20060601135039.82368.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20060601135039.82368.qmail@web80504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <448DFF37.6090107@f2s.com>


Hi again

Well the engines been rebuilt.

it would seem the small metal fragments I found in the cylinders are the 
remains of the glowplugs. The local diesel specialist says that when 
turbos go and the engine starts burning oil, the oil ignites before TDC, 
and thus a flame is sucked into the combustion chamber, against the 
glowplugs. this burns them away very quickly.  (normally combustion 
gasses exit the combustion chamber before doing too much damage.

This also explains why the combustion chambers (hard metal inserts in 
the aluminium head) had moved - they had simply overheated. they were 
proud enough that a faceplate on the head actually /rocked/ on the 
centre one giving a ~0.5mm gap at the edge!

so, a new set of glowplugs, turbo off ebay, and a head gasket and it is 
all up and running. Total cost ~20ukp, which isnt bad - but who knows 
how long this new turbo is going to run?

Next task will be to tear  apart the old turbo and see if it can be 
salvaged in any way. I've heard some turbos can use ordinary 
ballbearings (garrett models) so perhaps... will have to see.

TTFN!


From spyro at f2s.com  Mon Jun 12 19:02:04 2006
From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 01:02:04 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Nissan engine
In-Reply-To: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com>
References: <447EADD2.7010807@f2s.com>
Message-ID: <448E007C.5080403@f2s.com>


Actually got the car now. for those who care, take a peek at 
http://www.mnementh.co.uk/datsun/

looks like it already has most of what megasquirt likes - IAC, IAT, TPS, 
tach, etc.

It uses a flap type sensor at present, but that will be dumped for a MAP 
based setup in future.

Im gonna see if I can fire up the engine first anyway. if it turns out 
to be a runner, I'll hoist it out and restore the body. (anyone who can 
steal something that heavy from my back yard deserves it :-))

That done, it'll be back in with the engine and drivetrain, and on to 
the fun bits :)

PS. anyone got an airbox for a 280zx ?

:-)

TTFN!


From gas- at charter.net  Mon Jun 12 21:19:22 2006
From: gas- at charter.net (Gary)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:19:22 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean.
References: <BAY105-F6F06BFBD7F6E377F17177978F0@phx.gbl>
	<000201c68e75$0079fbf0$34147544@homedesktop>
Message-ID: <000601c68e8f$ca3227f0$34147544@homedesktop>

The previous statement was worded poorly, or at least confusing.
I'll attempt to improve on that here. Hope this make better sense.

At stoich, a voltage of .45V (450mV) is generated. It is at this voltage
the NBO2 is designed to be accurate. Stoich will cover a range from
~150mV to at least 650mV. The high end of voltage will increase even
more as the temp decreases. To point I want to stress, a wide range of
voltage is covered with resulting AFR still remaining at stoich. Once
outside (richer or leaner) the voltage change is much less for a much
larger range of AFR. IOW, from 14.0 to pig rich the voltage rate of change 
can be no more than 250mV.

Also, to put the temp influence on a NB into perspective, according
to my data, at 900?C .880 mV will mean 10.3 AFR. At 500?C, the
same voltage means 14.1 AFR. So, without knowing the precise
sensor head temp, the AFR is at best a guess.

GAS


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary" <gas- at charter.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean.


> In addition, the further from stoich NBO2s venture, the more impact very 
> slight voltage changes will have on actual AFR, thus giving the same 
> effect as lowering resolution and dulling sensitivity. 


From mdacmail at optusnet.com.au  Mon Jun 12 21:59:59 2006
From: mdacmail at optusnet.com.au (mdacmail at optusnet.com.au)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:59:59 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] eprom decryption
Message-ID: <200606130300.k5D2xxsY018957@mail08.syd.optusnet.com.au>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Url: http://lists.diy-efi.org/pipermail/diy_efi/attachments/20060613/30bf0337/attachment.pl 

From A6intruder at myo-p.com  Mon Jun 12 22:07:15 2006
From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 23:07:15 -0400
Subject: slightly long reply [Diy_efi] blown engine...
In-Reply-To: <448DFF37.6090107@f2s.com>
Message-ID: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEEEEGHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>

What you actually experienced was pre-ignition, your diesel had oil from the
turbo in the inlet air and that air/fuel mixture entered the cylinder just
like a spark ignition inhales air/gasoline.  Problem was as soon as the
piston started back up on the compression stroke as soon as the
temp/pressure hit ignition conditions you were trying to combust with 90 or
more degrees of rotation prior to TDC, well before you would normally time
the ignition.  This leads to HUGE temp/pressure spikes that melt whatever
gets hot the fastest.  You saw the results on your glow plugs and steel
inserts.  You're lucky you didn't get holes in the pistons.

Good to hear it is running, 'hope all is well.

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Ian Molton
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 7:57 PM
To: Rick McLeod; diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: slightly long reply [Diy_efi] blown engine...


Hi again

Well the engines been rebuilt.

it would seem the small metal fragments I found in the cylinders are the
remains of the glowplugs. The local diesel specialist says that when
turbos go and the engine starts burning oil, the oil ignites before TDC,
and thus a flame is sucked into the combustion chamber, against the
glowplugs. this burns them away very quickly.  (normally combustion
gasses exit the combustion chamber before doing too much damage.

This also explains why the combustion chambers (hard metal inserts in
the aluminium head) had moved - they had simply overheated. they were
proud enough that a faceplate on the head actually /rocked/ on the
centre one giving a ~0.5mm gap at the edge!

so, a new set of glowplugs, turbo off ebay, and a head gasket and it is
all up and running. Total cost ~20ukp, which isnt bad - but who knows
how long this new turbo is going to run?

Next task will be to tear  apart the old turbo and see if it can be
salvaged in any way. I've heard some turbos can use ordinary
ballbearings (garrett models) so perhaps... will have to see.

TTFN!
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



From A6intruder at myo-p.com  Mon Jun 12 22:17:18 2006
From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 23:17:18 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <448CA87F.4040704@commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEAEEHHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>

Regardless of the tangent this thread took on WB vs NB, I'd like to thank
Tom for a great post on troubleshooting narrow band sensors.  Many of us
still have to meet smog and although I use a DIY-WB for my WOT tuning, I
depend on proper operation of my NB sensors to tune for smog at the low
power area's of operation.

I have printed the information below to .pdf for storage on my own hard
drive for the day I have similar problems.  Hopefully I don't see that day
but if so I can recall if from my HD archives.

Thanks Tom.

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Tom Visel
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:34 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..

Look at your oxygen sensor voltage, preferably with an oscilloscope,
though even a scan tool or a high-impedance DVOM would do, as long as it
doesn't do too bad a job of "smothering" away the sensor's natural
jitters with its averaging function.  Some meters that have a bar graph
at the bottom will let the bar graph twitch while the numbers get
averaged out to something smooth and useless.  A bar-graph ricer gauge
will do also; the cheaper ones are better for this purpose because they
let the original signal show through without cleaning it up for prime time.

What you are looking for is movement of the sensor voltage - is it
jittering rich/lean or rich/richer, or is it parked at some voltage?  If
it is parked at some rich (>450 mV) reading and staying there, odds are
the sensor is dead.  If it is reading over 1 volt, odds are you have a
bad ground for the sensor, and stray electrons are making their way home
on the oxygen sensor line.  This is more prevalent on vehicles with
headers, due to the gasket trickery that often makes for a less than
perfect ground at the flanges.  Heated oxygen sensors have even more
problems like this, because the 12 volts supplied to the heater needs
its own GOOD ground, and it will use whatever other wire is available if
the heater ground wire is bad.  This is more of a problem on fresh
custom builds and vehicles with older sensors.

To quick-test your oxygen sensor ground, unplug the alternator while
watching the O2S output.  Did it improve?  If so, bad ground.  More
electrical load = more strain on grounds.  Another method of testing is
to run a jumper cable from the battery negative post to the housing of
the O2 sensor to act as an extra ground.  If that improves the signal
quality, you know your grounds need work.

BTW, your oxygen sensor can be switching rich/lean at the sensor - going
from .25 to .75 volts, say - and a bad ground will turn that into a
signal that varies from .6 to 1.1 volts, which the ECM would interpret
as all rich, all the time.

HTH!
TomV

David Rowley wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>  I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670 throttle
body injection unit.
>
>  I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
closed loop mode.  When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the AFR
(the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the point where
it will barely run.  Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture when it appears it
is not?  I have tried two O2 sensors with the same result.  Does it have to
do the the cam duration and manifold type?
>
>  I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on the O2
sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to run right,
until now.
>
>  Has anyone out there seen anything like this?
>
>  Thanks,
>
>  Dave
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
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From michael at fastmail.ca  Mon Jun 12 22:21:24 2006
From: michael at fastmail.ca (Michael Richards)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 03:21:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean.
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F6F06BFBD7F6E377F17177978F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20060613032125.3F493861171@mail.fastmail.ca>

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:39:44 -0700, John Smith1882 wrote...

> Just some personal observation that may support this....Something I've
> noticed is that many OEMs omit O2 sensor input at wide open throttle
> and run on the fuel table without feedback mixture adjustment. This
> would make sense since the narrowband is only accurate during lean
> cruise and WOT/high load would require AFRs richer than 14.7:1. Am I
> on the right track?

You are on the right track. OEMs do drop out of closed loop for this
reason. However you will note that many OEMs are now using wideband
sensors in their management. The extra accuracy can be used to help
these vehicles pass more stringent emissions regulations and provide
better horsepower numbers. 

-Michael
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From A6intruder at myo-p.com  Mon Jun 12 22:26:25 2006
From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 23:26:25 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060612004348.67527861477@mail.fastmail.ca>
Message-ID: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEAEEIHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>

Bottom post.
-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Michael Richards
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 8:44 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..

<snip>
My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated and
accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper mixture
display on the dash.
-Michael
<snip>
Michael,

Question on the WB's that give NB output.  Is it accurate NB output, meaning
is it cycling in closed loop showing hi-lo as a real NB would?  Or, does it
just give a simulated output voltage signal that stay's within an acceptable
range to not trigger problems?

With accurate NB output the stock ECM can still do its legitimate tuning in
closed loop.  If simulated, you may not have the ECM working for you in the
closed loop operation.

Curious.  I use a third bung with my DIY-WB sensor and leave the stock O2's
in place to do their thing for closed loop operation.  Works for me.  Just
curious how those "store-bought" units work.

Thanks,

Dan Nicoson





From michael at fastmail.ca  Mon Jun 12 22:34:34 2006
From: michael at fastmail.ca (Michael Richards)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 03:34:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEAEEIHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
Message-ID: <20060613033435.972DD861A5C@mail.fastmail.ca>

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 23:26:25 -0400, Daniel Nicoson wrote...

We're producing wideband controllers so I think I can answer this one.
The cycling you are observing is a result of the closed loop feedback.
The sensor reads rich so the ECU removes some fuel then it switches to
lean and the ECU adds some fuel. This is the cycling.

For the narrowband emulation most units just output a signal consistant
with the switching of a narrowband sensor. Some allow this output to be
skewed to force a factory ECU to cruise leaner or richer. This can be
important for fuel economy  or to smooth our a lumpy cam.

-Michael

> Question on the WB's that give NB output.  Is it accurate NB output,
> meaning is it cycling in closed loop showing hi-lo as a real NB would?
>  Or, does it just give a simulated output voltage signal that stay's
> within an acceptable range to not trigger problems?
> 
> With accurate NB output the stock ECM can still do its legitimate
> tuning in closed loop.  If simulated, you may not have the ECM working
> for you in the closed loop operation.
> 
> Curious.  I use a third bung with my DIY-WB sensor and leave the stock
> O2's in place to do their thing for closed loop operation.  Works for
> me.  Just curious how those "store-bought" units work.

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    http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians



From david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 12 22:48:16 2006
From: david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com (David Rowley)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 20:48:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060612004348.67527861477@mail.fastmail.ca>
Message-ID: <20060613034816.61349.qmail@web60916.mail.yahoo.com>

First al all, I want to thank everyone for their inputs.  I very much appreciate the help.
   
  I have never heard of a wide band O2 that also has narrow band output.  How does this work?  Are there two different wires to select from for output?  Under what part number and whom would I find one?  
   
  I like the idea of trying this, but I have no idea how I would explain what I want to the local counter person at the car parts place.  
   
  Thanks,
   
  Dave
   
  
Michael Richards <michael at fastmail.ca> wrote:
  On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...

First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to constantly
educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband sensors.

Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in fact
you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an ignition
timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as well. If you
accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause incorrect readings.

My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated and
accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper mixture
display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1 under
power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If you
properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it leaner
without any ill effects for fuel economy.

-Michael

> I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
> duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670
> throttle body injection unit.
> 
> I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
> closed loop mode. When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the
> AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the
> point where it will barely run. Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture
> when it appears it is not? I have tried two O2 sensors with the same
> result. Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
> 
> I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on the
> O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to run
> right, until now.
>
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From A6intruder at myo-p.com  Mon Jun 12 22:55:05 2006
From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 23:55:05 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060613034816.61349.qmail@web60916.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEAEEPHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>

The local parts guy won't have this device.

The wide band sensors being referred to that also have NB output are
aftermarket units that have their own controller circuit (box).

All wide band sensors have their own corresponding control circuit.

Google "Wide Band O2"

You should see most of the offerings with that search.

For a very good technical discussion of all the considerations of NB & WB
systems, find the Megasquirt web site and look for their dissertation on the
subject of oxygen sensors.  Pretty involved the way those guys do a project.

Happy reading.

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of David Rowley
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:48 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..

First al all, I want to thank everyone for their inputs.  I very much
appreciate the help.

  I have never heard of a wide band O2 that also has narrow band output.
How does this work?  Are there two different wires to select from for
output?  Under what part number and whom would I find one?

  I like the idea of trying this, but I have no idea how I would explain
what I want to the local counter person at the car parts place.

  Thanks,

  Dave


Michael Richards <michael at fastmail.ca> wrote:
  On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...

First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to constantly
educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband sensors.

Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in fact
you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an ignition
timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as well. If you
accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause incorrect readings.

My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated and
accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper mixture
display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1 under
power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If you
properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it leaner
without any ill effects for fuel economy.

-Michael

> I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
> duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670
> throttle body injection unit.
>
> I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
> closed loop mode. When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the
> AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the
> point where it will barely run. Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture
> when it appears it is not? I have tried two O2 sensors with the same
> result. Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
>
> I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on the
> O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to run
> right, until now.
>
_________________________________________________________________
http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From dirtrider218 at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 12 23:41:22 2006
From: dirtrider218 at hotmail.com (John Smith1882)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:41:22 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors: req fuel
In-Reply-To: <BAY0-MC12-F4NuSNGDQ003af7c5@bay0-mc12-f4.bay0.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY105-F41BB466B97314B0EAF973978C0@phx.gbl>

I appreciate the time taken to help me. Unfortunately that company just 
makes a dedicated compressed gas fuel injection system that likewise uses 
LPG/CNG-specific Keihin inectors(that are measured differently than 
gasoline). I have been all over European and Australian sites and forums. 
The only information available seem to be about whole aftermarket 
systems(that are highly expensive), not DIY methods.


>Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:16:07 +1000 (EST)
>From: Damian Long <bigcow_610 at yahoo.com.au>
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: LPG vapor injection with gasoline injectors:
>	req fuel
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Message-ID: <20060612221607.79888.qmail at web50302.mail.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>Guys,
>
>   You might like to check out this website. Person to talk to is Brad.
>
>   http://www.profire.com.au/
>
>   Seems he might have the information you are looking for.
>
>   Damian




From glogovacs at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jun 12 23:56:57 2006
From: glogovacs at yahoo.co.uk (Stevan Glogovac)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 05:56:57 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Reversing EPROM decryption board (Don Paauw)
Message-ID: <20060613045657.90624.qmail@web25309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hello Don,
   
  thanks for the answer.
   
  I tried to make the checksum of vectors correct by some trivial mehods - assuming 8 and 16 bit ADD and 8 bit XOR is done on the area. That didn't work, and I had always fear that they could check the vector table against actual addresses of ISRs... (unused entrys point to the reset entry point). But I will try again with the checksum, adding some bit shifting in between....
   
  If address bus is not "walked" in correct sequence, PEELs do not decrypt data anymore. And I do not know the sequence...
   
  As for the monitor board, could I do it like this:
  1) use NVRAM
  2) connect it in parallel to address and data bus
  3) connect its /W to /R of EPROM
  4) keep its /R high
  5) connect its /CS to /CS of EPROM
   
  Regards,
  NG 
   
  Message: 1
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:58:27 -0400
From: Don Paauw <dpaauw at netwiz.net>
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Reversing EPROM decryption board
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20060611235827.00907bf0 at 216.251.43.97>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

NG (related to Stevan?),
It seems that since the address lines are direct, the decryption cannot be
changing on-the-fly (i.e. LFSR, state machine, etc.) so I would think that
every
address would be decrypted the same way every time. A brute force approach
would be
to have a RAM bank twice the width of the data bus and on every EPROM read,
write the
EPROM and the decrypted data into the RAM. Over time, you will get lot of
adresses
and their decoding. Some software munging may show a pattern and/or you
may be able
to use a non-critical area to try your trojan again. I'm not familiar with
the
PEEL or 68hc11 but it wouldn't take much to make sure that 128 bytes plus
some vectors
exactly match but, obviously, it's silly check the entire EPROM, other than
by checksum
or by sectored checksum. Actually, you may want to consider that and make
sure that
the unprotected area checksum always matches. The rest of this could be
moot. But
checksums can be easily convoluted by simply shifting bytes or feeding
through LFSRs
so this could be a frustrating exercise.

This assumes that passive measures are required. The first brute force
method would
be to just walk the address bus and observe the results but from your
experiences, I
would think they've anticipated that and found a way to detect it.

I realize that you are trying to achieve this by just reprogramming the
EPROM but I
don't see, offhand, anything you've missed in that approach, except
experimenting with
encrypted bytes, which could be dangerous (engine-wise) and probably
inconclusive.
Just to ease the hardware
approach, assuming you don't have access to a logic analyzer and the PEEL
(and everyting
else) isn't clock-speed-sensitive, you could use a PC to drive the clock
and drive/monitor the
address/data lines. I'm not sure this would be easier than building a
dedicated monitoring
board, but it would allow you to put just about everything under software
control and make
other attacks easier.

-- Don


 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 13 11:40:32 2006
From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] all data access???
Message-ID: <20060613164032.89721.qmail@web36705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello a while back someone was nice enought to get me a diagram of a plug I needed. Does anyone still have access to all data or any online wiring diagrams??? I coud use some dash cluster wirirng schematics for a 94 grand am with tach and speedomoeter I believe they call it a UB3 cluster.
   
  thanks much
   
  jim
   

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From dpaauw at netwiz.net  Tue Jun 13 13:02:16 2006
From: dpaauw at netwiz.net (Don Paauw)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:02:16 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Reversing EPROM decryption board (Don Paauw)
In-Reply-To: <20060613045657.90624.qmail@web25309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20060613140216.0096e210@216.251.43.97>

At 05:56 AM 6/13/06 +0100, you wrote:
>Hello Don,
>   
>  thanks for the answer.
>   
>  I tried to make the checksum of vectors correct by some trivial mehods -
assuming 8 and 16 bit ADD and 8 bit XOR is done on the area. That didn't
work, and I had always fear that they could check the vector table against
actual addresses of ISRs... (unused entrys point to the reset entry point).
But I will try again with the checksum, adding some bit shifting in
between....
>   
>  If address bus is not "walked" in correct sequence, PEELs do not decrypt
data anymore. And I do not know the sequence...
>   
>  As for the monitor board, could I do it like this:
>  1) use NVRAM
>  2) connect it in parallel to address and data bus
>  3) connect its /W to /R of EPROM
>  4) keep its /R high
>  5) connect its /CS to /CS of EPROM
>   
>  Regards,
>  NG 

Conceptually this is correct but check all of the timing specs.  For NVRAM,
make sure it is fast enough and if there is only one bank of EPROMs, make
sure the /CS is actually moving.  You will be loading the address & data
busses with more capacitance but only one or two more chips should be fine.
You'll probably want to gate the RAM /CS for a clean shutdown.
It sounds like you are already driving the address lines, so if you can
control
the control signals as well, then there should be no speed or timing problems.

Address sequencing may be checked by rules like: address are sequential unless
a branch or data access is seen, ISR vectors are constant, etc.

-- Don


From dpaauw at netwiz.net  Tue Jun 13 13:07:02 2006
From: dpaauw at netwiz.net (Don Paauw)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:07:02 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Reversing EPROM decryption board
In-Reply-To: <20060613045657.90624.qmail@web25309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20060613140702.008d0b30@216.251.43.97>

Just to clarify, you will need two banks of NVRAM, one connected to the EPROM
data bus and the other connected to the processor data bus, both connected
to the address bus.  Thus, one will contain encrypted and the other
unencrypted
data.

-- Don



At 05:56 AM 6/13/06 +0100, you wrote:
>Hello Don,
>   
>  thanks for the answer.
>   
>  I tried to make the checksum of vectors correct by some trivial mehods -
assuming 8 and 16 bit ADD and 8 bit XOR is done on the area. That didn't
work, and I had always fear that they could check the vector table against
actual addresses of ISRs... (unused entrys point to the reset entry point).
But I will try again with the checksum, adding some bit shifting in
between....
>   
>  If address bus is not "walked" in correct sequence, PEELs do not decrypt
data anymore. And I do not know the sequence...
>   
>  As for the monitor board, could I do it like this:
>  1) use NVRAM
>  2) connect it in parallel to address and data bus
>  3) connect its /W to /R of EPROM
>  4) keep its /R high
>  5) connect its /CS to /CS of EPROM
>   
>  Regards,
>  NG 



From A6intruder at myo-p.com  Tue Jun 13 17:42:33 2006
From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:42:33 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
Message-ID: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEMEIHHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>

Who has injectors for sale?  I need (8) injectors for my 1994 5.0 turbo
project.

Would like a good used set either 48# or 54#, would consider some of the 52#
Ford CFI injectors, I can make the modifications if the price is right.

I can use high impedance or low impedance (have my own lo-z driver).

Low price is preferred, but of course I need something that will work
correctly.


As an alternative, what retailers do you guys recommend?


Have any of you purchased from these guys below?  Experience?

Owners Howard & Debbie Haack
Motor Man Fuel Injection Supply
6000 W. Weidman Rd.
Weidman, MI. 48893
Phone 989-644-2695      Mobile 989-621-9965

Thanks,


Dan Nicoson




From silent_thunder888 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 13 18:43:31 2006
From: silent_thunder888 at yahoo.com (nathanael portelli)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:43:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tiny injectors and fuel pump?
Message-ID: <20060613234331.50837.qmail@web52915.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi All!

I'm planning to build an EFI system for a small 72cc 4-stroke engine. I've already designed most of the system, and I have or can obtain all that I need . . . . or nearly . . . 

I dont know where to get siutably small injectors and a fuel pump!!! Does any of you have the least idea how I can obtain some? The only source I can imagine is the european [PGM-FI version] of the Honda Zoomer/Ruckus, but it's not for sale in my country, so I cant get them from spares [btu i think they would be great because they are for similarly sized engines and have good atomization].

Thanks for any help or ideas!

N

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From carl-otto at usa.net  Tue Jun 13 18:52:48 2006
From: carl-otto at usa.net (CARL-OTTO RUSTAD)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 01:52:48 +0200
Subject: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
Message-ID: <491kFmX1W5824S13.1150242768@uwdvg013.cms.usa.net>

Dan!

Howard is a nice guy.
My experience is that you can depend on him.
Fast delivery and low cost rebuilt and tested injectors.
He told me once that he was specially aware of
the importance of collecting injectors of similar flow
rate in set.
So there is no chance of creating unbalance that way.

Carl.

------ Original Message ------
Received: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:43:24 AM CEST
From: "Daniel Nicoson" <A6intruder at myo-p.com>
To: "DIY_ EFI" <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Subject: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors

Who has injectors for sale?  I need (8) injectors for my 1994 5.0 turbo
project.

Would like a good used set either 48# or 54#, would consider some of the 52#
Ford CFI injectors, I can make the modifications if the price is right.

I can use high impedance or low impedance (have my own lo-z driver).

Low price is preferred, but of course I need something that will work
correctly.


As an alternative, what retailers do you guys recommend?


Have any of you purchased from these guys below?  Experience?

Owners Howard & Debbie Haack
Motor Man Fuel Injection Supply
6000 W. Weidman Rd.
Weidman, MI. 48893
Phone 989-644-2695      Mobile 989-621-9965

Thanks,


Dan Nicoson


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Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi






From david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 13 20:38:21 2006
From: david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com (David Rowley)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:38:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060612004348.67527861477@mail.fastmail.ca>
Message-ID: <20060614013821.99926.qmail@web60914.mail.yahoo.com>

I have the O2 in header collector (long tube headers) and there is no cat.  Where should it be placed?  Where are the bad places to put it and why?  How would you go about balancing the cylinders?
   
  Thanks again,
   
  Dave
  

Michael Richards <michael at fastmail.ca> wrote:
  On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...

First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to constantly
educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband sensors.

Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in fact
you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an ignition
timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as well. If you
accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause incorrect readings.

My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated and
accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper mixture
display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1 under
power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If you
properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it leaner
without any ill effects for fuel economy.

-Michael

> I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
> duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670
> throttle body injection unit.
> 
> I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
> closed loop mode. When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the
> AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the
> point where it will barely run. Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture
> when it appears it is not? I have tried two O2 sensors with the same
> result. Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
> 
> I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on the
> O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to run
> right, until now.
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From keithvarin at gmail.com  Tue Jun 13 21:08:24 2006
From: keithvarin at gmail.com (Keith Varin)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:08:24 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
Message-ID: <d6cb3a1a0606131908s42643ffak4c7d22c935c8f4ca@mail.gmail.com>

Hey everyone. First I would like to thank you all for viewing this thread.

I have a 1994 Ford Mustang Cobra with the 5.0 GT-40 motor and a manual
transmission. It is still relativly stock however with a few small mods I
began to have a hanging idle. After installing a new TB and headers the idle
would hang around 1800 rpms. my first thought was that i probably had a leak
in the intake tract somewhere. So i disassembled the intake and resealed
everything with rtv and high-tack gasket sealer. The problem went away, so I
figured I had fixed it.Low and behold, 3 days later it was raining out and I
began my 17 mile trip to work. Halfway there I realized that my car was
still idling around 1800rpms, so the work I had done did not fix the
problem.

I have since paid close attention to the conditions of the environment and
of my vehicle when the idle stays high, here is what I have figured out.

When moving at any speed greater than 15mph with the vehicle in neutral or
with the clutch pressed, the car will idle at or around 1100 rpms, and when
the vehicle comes to a stop it will idle at 800-900 (which is normal).
However, any time it is raining or very damn outside the car will idle at
1800rpms at any speed 15mph or greater with the vehicle in neutral or with
the clutch pressed.

If anyone has any input on why my car might be doing this or any ideas on
ways to fix this problem. please feel free to shout it out.

Thanks
Keith


From A6intruder at myo-p.com  Tue Jun 13 21:39:54 2006
From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:39:54 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
In-Reply-To: <d6cb3a1a0606131908s42643ffak4c7d22c935c8f4ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEOEIOHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>

Keith,

What have you done to adjust the idle with the new throttle body?  Normally,
you would disconnect the ignition spout connector, disconnect the IAC and
then manually adjust the throttle plate one "screw-turn" off closed.  Then
adjust the idle bleed screw so the engine will idle without any computer
help (this would be with every load off, defroster to off, lights off etc.)

Once you get it to idle like this (fully warmed up), then turn off and plug
all back in.  See if it is better then.

If you were tuning the computer with a TwEECer or similar device then we
could do more but if you are not modifying computer settings, not much else
you can do.

HTH,

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Keith Varin
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:08 PM
To: Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...

Hey everyone. First I would like to thank you all for viewing this thread.

I have a 1994 Ford Mustang Cobra with the 5.0 GT-40 motor and a manual
transmission. It is still relativly stock however with a few small mods I
began to have a hanging idle. After installing a new TB and headers the idle
would hang around 1800 rpms. my first thought was that i probably had a leak
in the intake tract somewhere. So i disassembled the intake and resealed
everything with rtv and high-tack gasket sealer. The problem went away, so I
figured I had fixed it.Low and behold, 3 days later it was raining out and I
began my 17 mile trip to work. Halfway there I realized that my car was
still idling around 1800rpms, so the work I had done did not fix the
problem.

I have since paid close attention to the conditions of the environment and
of my vehicle when the idle stays high, here is what I have figured out.

When moving at any speed greater than 15mph with the vehicle in neutral or
with the clutch pressed, the car will idle at or around 1100 rpms, and when
the vehicle comes to a stop it will idle at 800-900 (which is normal).
However, any time it is raining or very damn outside the car will idle at
1800rpms at any speed 15mph or greater with the vehicle in neutral or with
the clutch pressed.

If anyone has any input on why my car might be doing this or any ideas on
ways to fix this problem. please feel free to shout it out.

Thanks
Keith
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



From keithvarin at gmail.com  Tue Jun 13 21:54:50 2006
From: keithvarin at gmail.com (Keith Varin)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:54:50 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
In-Reply-To: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEOEIOHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
References: <d6cb3a1a0606131908s42643ffak4c7d22c935c8f4ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEOEIOHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
Message-ID: <d6cb3a1a0606131954m6963865fu249e8c7c17e7a530@mail.gmail.com>

I am using the TwEECer R/T system to tune my car. I just picked one up from
www.promustangperformance.com however i am still new to the unit and have
not really gotten a grasp of what settings do what. As far as adjusting the
idle... I've set the idle adjustment screw so that the car runs and to
temporaily get around the hanging idle issue i have actually unplugged the
IAC motor. I tried replacing it, however it made no difference. Im just
wondering why this happened after I installed  throttle body, and why it
only reacts the way it does when it id raining out...

Keith

On 6/13/06, Daniel Nicoson <A6intruder at myo-p.com> wrote:
>
> Keith,
>
> What have you done to adjust the idle with the new throttle
> body?  Normally,
> you would disconnect the ignition spout connector, disconnect the IAC and
> then manually adjust the throttle plate one "screw-turn" off closed.  Then
> adjust the idle bleed screw so the engine will idle without any computer
> help (this would be with every load off, defroster to off, lights off
> etc.)
>
> Once you get it to idle like this (fully warmed up), then turn off and
> plug
> all back in.  See if it is better then.
>
> If you were tuning the computer with a TwEECer or similar device then we
> could do more but if you are not modifying computer settings, not much
> else
> you can do.
>
> HTH,
>
> Dan Nicoson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of Keith Varin
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:08 PM
> To: Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
>
> Hey everyone. First I would like to thank you all for viewing this thread.
>
> I have a 1994 Ford Mustang Cobra with the 5.0 GT-40 motor and a manual
> transmission. It is still relativly stock however with a few small mods I
> began to have a hanging idle. After installing a new TB and headers the
> idle
> would hang around 1800 rpms. my first thought was that i probably had a
> leak
> in the intake tract somewhere. So i disassembled the intake and resealed
> everything with rtv and high-tack gasket sealer. The problem went away, so
> I
> figured I had fixed it.Low and behold, 3 days later it was raining out and
> I
> began my 17 mile trip to work. Halfway there I realized that my car was
> still idling around 1800rpms, so the work I had done did not fix the
> problem.
>
> I have since paid close attention to the conditions of the environment and
> of my vehicle when the idle stays high, here is what I have figured out.
>
> When moving at any speed greater than 15mph with the vehicle in neutral or
> with the clutch pressed, the car will idle at or around 1100 rpms, and
> when
> the vehicle comes to a stop it will idle at 800-900 (which is normal).
> However, any time it is raining or very damn outside the car will idle at
> 1800rpms at any speed 15mph or greater with the vehicle in neutral or with
> the clutch pressed.
>
> If anyone has any input on why my car might be doing this or any ideas on
> ways to fix this problem. please feel free to shout it out.
>
> Thanks
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>


From llemoine at gmail.com  Tue Jun 13 23:01:11 2006
From: llemoine at gmail.com (Lee M. Lemoine)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 00:01:11 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
In-Reply-To: <d6cb3a1a0606131954m6963865fu249e8c7c17e7a530@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d6cb3a1a0606131908s42643ffak4c7d22c935c8f4ca@mail.gmail.com>
	<KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEOEIOHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
	<d6cb3a1a0606131954m6963865fu249e8c7c17e7a530@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bedc2dea0606132101y710e2dcpd0cc035fe7bc06a2@mail.gmail.com>

Keith,

My thoughts are now perhaps turned to the TPS sensor.  I remember that on my
Mclaren motor, i had to elongate the mounting holes on the sensor just
slightly because it kept flickering between 0v and .07v at 'zero' throttle,
which kept causing my idle to surge because of the throttle pump setting
(picture tapping the throttle constantly)

I'll help you with this when i see you next (read: tomorrow morning)  but i
figured i'd post the response for the group to see / learn from.

Another thought is that we should set the idle for the minimum value (700
rpm) with the set screw and observe for vaccum leaks pre-MAF and in the rest
of the hard lines on the car -- either with propane or ultrasonically.
either way, that would cause a surge because i'm pretty sure the way most
ECM's figure the 'bump' in idle speed is a certain number of 'steps' on the
IAC.   perhaps that may be the issue, a difference in diameter of the holes
in the IAC (overall volume of airflow)



On 6/13/06, Keith Varin <keithvarin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am using the TwEECer R/T system to tune my car. I just picked one up
> from
> www.promustangperformance.com however i am still new to the unit and have
> not really gotten a grasp of what settings do what. As far as adjusting
> the
> idle... I've set the idle adjustment screw so that the car runs and to
> temporaily get around the hanging idle issue i have actually unplugged the
> IAC motor. I tried replacing it, however it made no difference. Im just
> wondering why this happened after I installed  throttle body, and why it
> only reacts the way it does when it id raining out...
>
> Keith
>
> On 6/13/06, Daniel Nicoson <A6intruder at myo-p.com> wrote:
> >
> > Keith,
> >
> > What have you done to adjust the idle with the new throttle
> > body?  Normally,
> > you would disconnect the ignition spout connector, disconnect the IAC
> and
> > then manually adjust the throttle plate one "screw-turn" off
> closed.  Then
> > adjust the idle bleed screw so the engine will idle without any computer
> > help (this would be with every load off, defroster to off, lights off
> > etc.)
> >
> > Once you get it to idle like this (fully warmed up), then turn off and
> > plug
> > all back in.  See if it is better then.
> >
> > If you were tuning the computer with a TwEECer or similar device then we
> > could do more but if you are not modifying computer settings, not much
> > else
> > you can do.
> >
> > HTH,
> >
> > Dan Nicoson
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
> > Behalf Of Keith Varin
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:08 PM
> > To: Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
> >
> > Hey everyone. First I would like to thank you all for viewing this
> thread.
> >
> > I have a 1994 Ford Mustang Cobra with the 5.0 GT-40 motor and a manual
> > transmission. It is still relativly stock however with a few small mods
> I
> > began to have a hanging idle. After installing a new TB and headers the
> > idle
> > would hang around 1800 rpms. my first thought was that i probably had a
> > leak
> > in the intake tract somewhere. So i disassembled the intake and resealed
> > everything with rtv and high-tack gasket sealer. The problem went away,
> so
> > I
> > figured I had fixed it.Low and behold, 3 days later it was raining out
> and
> > I
> > began my 17 mile trip to work. Halfway there I realized that my car was
> > still idling around 1800rpms, so the work I had done did not fix the
> > problem.
> >
> > I have since paid close attention to the conditions of the environment
> and
> > of my vehicle when the idle stays high, here is what I have figured out.
> >
> > When moving at any speed greater than 15mph with the vehicle in neutral
> or
> > with the clutch pressed, the car will idle at or around 1100 rpms, and
> > when
> > the vehicle comes to a stop it will idle at 800-900 (which is normal).
> > However, any time it is raining or very damn outside the car will idle
> at
> > 1800rpms at any speed 15mph or greater with the vehicle in neutral or
> with
> > the clutch pressed.
> >
> > If anyone has any input on why my car might be doing this or any ideas
> on
> > ways to fix this problem. please feel free to shout it out.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Keith
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



-- 
Sincerely,
Lee M. Lemoine
KB1NQI  - Amateur Radio
http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/
'06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT
'93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!)


From david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 13 23:01:40 2006
From: david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com (David Rowley)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:01:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEAEEPHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
Message-ID: <20060614040140.526.qmail@web60916.mail.yahoo.com>

I have another question about O2 placement.
   
  I was looking at the O2 tonight and the bung is welded on the outside of the header collector.  It doesn't look like the O2 is sticking very far into the exhaust stream.  If the O2 tip is not out into the exhaust flow, would this cause it to give it rich reading?  I put a DVM on the O2 (with the negative lead attached next to the O2 sensor) and found that when cold, the O2 sensor voltage measure about .450 volts.  As it heats up, the voltage increases to about .875 volts.  If I introduce air (undoing the PCV hose), the reading does not change.  I tried this again with another new O2 sensor and got the same result.  
   
  Is the O2 tip somehow shielded from the exhaust flow causing it always read rich?
   
  Thanks,
   
  Dave
   
  
Daniel Nicoson <A6intruder at myo-p.com> wrote:
  The local parts guy won't have this device.

The wide band sensors being referred to that also have NB output are
aftermarket units that have their own controller circuit (box).

All wide band sensors have their own corresponding control circuit.

Google "Wide Band O2"

You should see most of the offerings with that search.

For a very good technical discussion of all the considerations of NB & WB
systems, find the Megasquirt web site and look for their dissertation on the
subject of oxygen sensors. Pretty involved the way those guys do a project.

Happy reading.

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of David Rowley
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:48 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..

First al all, I want to thank everyone for their inputs. I very much
appreciate the help.

I have never heard of a wide band O2 that also has narrow band output.
How does this work? Are there two different wires to select from for
output? Under what part number and whom would I find one?

I like the idea of trying this, but I have no idea how I would explain
what I want to the local counter person at the car parts place.

Thanks,

Dave


Michael Richards wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...

First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to constantly
educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband sensors.

Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in fact
you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an ignition
timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as well. If you
accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause incorrect readings.

My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated and
accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper mixture
display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1 under
power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If you
properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it leaner
without any ill effects for fuel economy.

-Michael

> I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
> duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670
> throttle body injection unit.
>
> I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
> closed loop mode. When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the
> AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the
> point where it will barely run. Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture
> when it appears it is not? I have tried two O2 sensors with the same
> result. Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
>
> I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on the
> O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to run
> right, until now.
>
_________________________________________________________________
http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians

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From michael at fastmail.ca  Tue Jun 13 23:23:30 2006
From: michael at fastmail.ca (Michael Richards)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 04:23:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060614040140.526.qmail@web60916.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060614042333.33CDC861338@mail.fastmail.ca>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:01:40 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...

O2 placement... The sensor needs to be mounted no lower than parallel
with the ground. It must be before any cats and after any turbos. As for
how much of the tip is directly in the exhaust stream I've never really
found that much of a difference. You may be able to use a zip-cut wheel
on a grinder to make your bung shorter if you think it's a big issue but
that's dicy for getting a good seal afterwards and you will need to run
a tap through the hole. A good quality M18x1.5 tap is expensive.

-Michael
 
> I was looking at the O2 tonight and the bung is welded on the outside
> of the header collector.  It doesn't look like the O2 is sticking very
> far into the exhaust stream.  If the O2 tip is not out into the
> exhaust flow, would this cause it to give it rich reading?  I put a
> DVM on the O2 (with the negative lead attached next to the O2 sensor)
> and found that when cold, the O2 sensor voltage measure about .450
> volts.  As it heats up, the voltage increases to about .875 volts.  If
> I introduce air (undoing the PCV hose), the reading does not change. 
> I tried this again with another new O2 sensor and got the same result.
> 
> Is the O2 tip somehow shielded from the exhaust flow causing it always
> read rich?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> Daniel Nicoson <A6intruder at myo-p.com> wrote:
> The local parts guy won't have this device.
> 
> The wide band sensors being referred to that also have NB output are
> aftermarket units that have their own controller circuit (box).
> 
> All wide band sensors have their own corresponding control circuit.
> 
> Google "Wide Band O2"
> 
> You should see most of the offerings with that search.
> 
> For a very good technical discussion of all the considerations of NB &
> WB systems, find the Megasquirt web site and look for their
> dissertation on the subject of oxygen sensors. Pretty involved the way
> those guys do a project.
> 
> Happy reading.
> 
> Dan Nicoson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org
> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of David Rowley
> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:48 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
> 
> First al all, I want to thank everyone for their inputs. I very much
> appreciate the help.
> 
> I have never heard of a wide band O2 that also has narrow band output.
> How does this work? Are there two different wires to select from for
> output? Under what part number and whom would I find one?
> 
> I like the idea of trying this, but I have no idea how I would explain
> what I want to the local counter person at the car parts place.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> Michael Richards wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...
> 
> First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
> useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to
> constantly educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband
> sensors.
> 
> Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
> If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in
> fact you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an
> ignition timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as
> well. If you accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause
> incorrect readings.
> 
> My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
> has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated
> and accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper
> mixture display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1
> under power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If
> you properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it
> leaner without any ill effects for fuel economy.
> 
> -Michael
> 
>> I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
>> duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670
>> throttle body injection unit.
>> 
>> I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
>> closed loop mode. When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the
>> AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the
>> point where it will barely run. Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture
>> when it appears it is not? I have tried two O2 sensors with the same
>> result. Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
>> 
>> I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on
>> the O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to
>> run right, until now.
>> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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From michael at fastmail.ca  Tue Jun 13 23:25:46 2006
From: michael at fastmail.ca (Michael Richards)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 04:25:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060614013821.99926.qmail@web60914.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060614042547.6A3CE8610F1@mail.fastmail.ca>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:38:21 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...

> I have the O2 in header collector (long tube headers) and there is no
> cat.  Where should it be placed?  Where are the bad places to put it
> and why?  How would you go about balancing the cylinders?

For balancing the cylinders you realistically need 8 EGT probes. Last
setup like this I got from an airplane. Cost about $650 for a digital
gauge and all the probes. I've tried with somewhat limited success to
use an IR pyrometer on the dyno - measuring all the collectors at about
the same point - ie 2" from the head.

-Michael
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From automotivelectronics at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 14 00:02:50 2006
From: automotivelectronics at hotmail.com (Gary Spooner)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 01:02:50 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060614013821.99926.qmail@web60914.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY114-F14BA30BF96737B5E72F71DD88D0@phx.gbl>

Hello.


The ideal temp for a non heated 02 sensor is approx 600 C before the voltage 
can be considered accurate. Go to a fire extinguisher recharge station or 
store and purchase a heat pen having a melt point near that temperture. Draw 
a line in the area of the pipe you would like to place the sensor and draw 
the line back away from the engine. Start the engine, take the car for a 
drive, give it a few good runs, rev it up a few times to get the header 
really hot and look to see where the line starts. If the pipe is any hotter 
the line will have disappeared. Look to see where on the pipe the line now 
starts and place the bung in that location. This will prevent the sensor 
from getting damaged by excess heat and a good location for the sensor to do 
it job.

gary

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From frankmccracken at shaw.ca  Wed Jun 14 00:07:04 2006
From: frankmccracken at shaw.ca (Frank McCracken)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:07:04 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
References: <20060614042333.33CDC861338@mail.fastmail.ca>
Message-ID: <002e01c68f70$60d0bec0$6501a8c0@flamingo>

Michael,
Could you please elaborate on o2 sensor placement? I have my 3 wire sensor
mounted facing up at about a 45deg angle.
Frank.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Richards" <michael at fastmail.ca>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:23 PM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..


> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:01:40 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...
>
> O2 placement... The sensor needs to be mounted no lower than parallel
> with the ground. It must be before any cats and after any turbos. As for
> how much of the tip is directly in the exhaust stream I've never really
> found that much of a difference. You may be able to use a zip-cut wheel
> on a grinder to make your bung shorter if you think it's a big issue but
> that's dicy for getting a good seal afterwards and you will need to run
> a tap through the hole. A good quality M18x1.5 tap is expensive.
>
> -Michael
>
> > I was looking at the O2 tonight and the bung is welded on the outside
> > of the header collector.  It doesn't look like the O2 is sticking very
> > far into the exhaust stream.  If the O2 tip is not out into the
> > exhaust flow, would this cause it to give it rich reading?  I put a
> > DVM on the O2 (with the negative lead attached next to the O2 sensor)
> > and found that when cold, the O2 sensor voltage measure about .450
> > volts.  As it heats up, the voltage increases to about .875 volts.  If
> > I introduce air (undoing the PCV hose), the reading does not change.
> > I tried this again with another new O2 sensor and got the same result.
> >
> > Is the O2 tip somehow shielded from the exhaust flow causing it always
> > read rich?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > Daniel Nicoson <A6intruder at myo-p.com> wrote:
> > The local parts guy won't have this device.
> >
> > The wide band sensors being referred to that also have NB output are
> > aftermarket units that have their own controller circuit (box).
> >
> > All wide band sensors have their own corresponding control circuit.
> >
> > Google "Wide Band O2"
> >
> > You should see most of the offerings with that search.
> >
> > For a very good technical discussion of all the considerations of NB &
> > WB systems, find the Megasquirt web site and look for their
> > dissertation on the subject of oxygen sensors. Pretty involved the way
> > those guys do a project.
> >
> > Happy reading.
> >
> > Dan Nicoson
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org
> > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of David Rowley
> > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:48 PM
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
> >
> > First al all, I want to thank everyone for their inputs. I very much
> > appreciate the help.
> >
> > I have never heard of a wide band O2 that also has narrow band output.
> > How does this work? Are there two different wires to select from for
> > output? Under what part number and whom would I find one?
> >
> > I like the idea of trying this, but I have no idea how I would explain
> > what I want to the local counter person at the car parts place.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > Michael Richards wrote:
> > On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...
> >
> > First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
> > useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to
> > constantly educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband
> > sensors.
> >
> > Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
> > If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in
> > fact you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an
> > ignition timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as
> > well. If you accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause
> > incorrect readings.
> >
> > My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
> > has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated
> > and accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper
> > mixture display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1
> > under power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If
> > you properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it
> > leaner without any ill effects for fuel economy.
> >
> > -Michael
> >
> >> I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
> >> duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670
> >> throttle body injection unit.
> >>
> >> I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
> >> closed loop mode. When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the
> >> AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the
> >> point where it will barely run. Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture
> >> when it appears it is not? I have tried two O2 sensors with the same
> >> result. Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
> >>
> >> I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on
> >> the O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to
> >> run right, until now.
> >>
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> _________________________________________________________________
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>
>
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>



From michael at fastmail.ca  Wed Jun 14 00:37:03 2006
From: michael at fastmail.ca (Michael Richards)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 05:37:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <002e01c68f70$60d0bec0$6501a8c0@flamingo>
Message-ID: <20060614054154.587B9861C75@mail.fastmail.ca>

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:07:04 -0700, Frank McCracken wrote...

> Michael,
> Could you please elaborate on o2 sensor placement? I have my 3 wire
> sensor mounted facing up at about a 45deg angle.
> Frank.

If the sensor is facing up at a 45 degree angle it is bad. This has been
known to kill sensors (years ago I killed a few expensive sensors from
this). On some cars condensation will get in there and settle on the
sensor. Then the sudden heat shock will break the ceramic based element
inside. This is how the bosch rep describes it. I do know that I fixed
the location on my car and it stopped killing sensors. You can probably
get away with it a little lower than midway on the pipe but it's a good
rule of thumb. I suspect too that the bottom of the exhaust may suffer
from a higher HC content as it will be heavier but I've never done any
experiements to validate this. I like the heat pen trick given in
another post. Normally I just rev the engine a little and with an IR
pyrometer look for about 500C. The exhaust temps during cruise usualy
make up for the difference. 

-Michael
_________________________________________________________________
    http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians



From glogovacs at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Jun 14 06:17:58 2006
From: glogovacs at yahoo.co.uk (Stevan Glogovac)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:17:58 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Reversing EPROM decryption board
Message-ID: <20060614111758.7476.qmail@web25309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Don,
   
  just checked: /CS is kept low all the time, /OE is the only one moving... Whenever the EPROM area is accessed, the /OE goes low... Does it change something? I mean, as long as NVRAM's /W is connected to the /OE, it should be fine.. or?
   
  Unfortunatelly, I am not able to control the address lines, I was controlling them only by software...
   
  The rest is clear... I will make the board over weekend and let you know how it went. Hopefully I won't fry the ECU :)).
   
  Regards,
NG
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Conceptually this is correct but check all of the timing specs. For NVRAM,
make sure it is fast enough and if there is only one bank of EPROMs, make
sure the /CS is actually moving. You will be loading the address & data
busses with more capacitance but only one or two more chips should be fine.
You'll probably want to gate the RAM /CS for a clean shutdown.
It sounds like you are already driving the address lines, so if you can
control
the control signals as well, then there should be no speed or timing problems.

Address sequencing may be checked by rules like: address are sequential unless
a branch or data access is seen, ISR vectors are constant, etc.

-- Don


 Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 14 08:48:09 2006
From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 06:48:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
In-Reply-To: <bedc2dea0606132101y710e2dcpd0cc035fe7bc06a2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060614134809.62840.qmail@web36702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Jumping in a littlelate here.... but in the GP world before the advent fo pcm tuners, we would elongate the two mounting holes on the TPS to optimize the settings for 0v and max of 5v ( or 4.9v) closed, and  WOT
   
  jim

"Lee M. Lemoine" <llemoine at gmail.com> wrote:
  Keith,

My thoughts are now perhaps turned to the TPS sensor. I remember that on my
Mclaren motor, i had to elongate the mounting holes on the sensor just
slightly because it kept flickering between 0v and .07v at 'zero' throttle,
which kept causing my idle to surge because of the throttle pump setting
(picture tapping the throttle constantly)

I'll help you with this when i see you next (read: tomorrow morning) but i
figured i'd post the response for the group to see / learn from.

Another thought is that we should set the idle for the minimum value (700
rpm) with the set screw and observe for vaccum leaks pre-MAF and in the rest
of the hard lines on the car -- either with propane or ultrasonically.
either way, that would cause a surge because i'm pretty sure the way most
ECM's figure the 'bump' in idle speed is a certain number of 'steps' on the
IAC. perhaps that may be the issue, a difference in diameter of the holes
in the IAC (overall volume of airflow)



On 6/13/06, Keith Varin wrote:
>
> I am using the TwEECer R/T system to tune my car. I just picked one up
> from
> www.promustangperformance.com however i am still new to the unit and have
> not really gotten a grasp of what settings do what. As far as adjusting
> the
> idle... I've set the idle adjustment screw so that the car runs and to
> temporaily get around the hanging idle issue i have actually unplugged the
> IAC motor. I tried replacing it, however it made no difference. Im just
> wondering why this happened after I installed throttle body, and why it
> only reacts the way it does when it id raining out...
>
> Keith
>
> On 6/13/06, Daniel Nicoson wrote:
> >
> > Keith,
> >
> > What have you done to adjust the idle with the new throttle
> > body? Normally,
> > you would disconnect the ignition spout connector, disconnect the IAC
> and
> > then manually adjust the throttle plate one "screw-turn" off
> closed. Then
> > adjust the idle bleed screw so the engine will idle without any computer
> > help (this would be with every load off, defroster to off, lights off
> > etc.)
> >
> > Once you get it to idle like this (fully warmed up), then turn off and
> > plug
> > all back in. See if it is better then.
> >
> > If you were tuning the computer with a TwEECer or similar device then we
> > could do more but if you are not modifying computer settings, not much
> > else
> > you can do.
> >
> > HTH,
> >
> > Dan Nicoson
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
> > Behalf Of Keith Varin
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:08 PM
> > To: Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
> >
> > Hey everyone. First I would like to thank you all for viewing this
> thread.
> >
> > I have a 1994 Ford Mustang Cobra with the 5.0 GT-40 motor and a manual
> > transmission. It is still relativly stock however with a few small mods
> I
> > began to have a hanging idle. After installing a new TB and headers the
> > idle
> > would hang around 1800 rpms. my first thought was that i probably had a
> > leak
> > in the intake tract somewhere. So i disassembled the intake and resealed
> > everything with rtv and high-tack gasket sealer. The problem went away,
> so
> > I
> > figured I had fixed it.Low and behold, 3 days later it was raining out
> and
> > I
> > began my 17 mile trip to work. Halfway there I realized that my car was
> > still idling around 1800rpms, so the work I had done did not fix the
> > problem.
> >
> > I have since paid close attention to the conditions of the environment
> and
> > of my vehicle when the idle stays high, here is what I have figured out.
> >
> > When moving at any speed greater than 15mph with the vehicle in neutral
> or
> > with the clutch pressed, the car will idle at or around 1100 rpms, and
> > when
> > the vehicle comes to a stop it will idle at 800-900 (which is normal).
> > However, any time it is raining or very damn outside the car will idle
> at
> > 1800rpms at any speed 15mph or greater with the vehicle in neutral or
> with
> > the clutch pressed.
> >
> > If anyone has any input on why my car might be doing this or any ideas
> on
> > ways to fix this problem. please feel free to shout it out.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Keith
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



-- 
Sincerely,
Lee M. Lemoine
KB1NQI - Amateur Radio
http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/
'06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT
'93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!)
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From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 14 08:49:50 2006
From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 06:49:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060614040140.526.qmail@web60916.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060614134950.412.qmail@web36708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

quite often a bung is welded on the down pipe as an aftermarket Wide band O2 is installed... the O2 should have enought threads to screw into the actual bung, and the sensor part will extend into the exhaust flow area..
   
  jim
   
  

David Rowley <david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
  I have another question about O2 placement.

I was looking at the O2 tonight and the bung is welded on the outside of the header collector. It doesn't look like the O2 is sticking very far into the exhaust stream. If the O2 tip is not out into the exhaust flow, would this cause it to give it rich reading? I put a DVM on the O2 (with the negative lead attached next to the O2 sensor) and found that when cold, the O2 sensor voltage measure about .450 volts. As it heats up, the voltage increases to about .875 volts. If I introduce air (undoing the PCV hose), the reading does not change. I tried this again with another new O2 sensor and got the same result. 

Is the O2 tip somehow shielded from the exhaust flow causing it always read rich?

Thanks,

Dave


Daniel Nicoson wrote:
The local parts guy won't have this device.

The wide band sensors being referred to that also have NB output are
aftermarket units that have their own controller circuit (box).

All wide band sensors have their own corresponding control circuit.

Google "Wide Band O2"

You should see most of the offerings with that search.

For a very good technical discussion of all the considerations of NB & WB
systems, find the Megasquirt web site and look for their dissertation on the
subject of oxygen sensors. Pretty involved the way those guys do a project.

Happy reading.

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of David Rowley
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:48 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..

First al all, I want to thank everyone for their inputs. I very much
appreciate the help.

I have never heard of a wide band O2 that also has narrow band output.
How does this work? Are there two different wires to select from for
output? Under what part number and whom would I find one?

I like the idea of trying this, but I have no idea how I would explain
what I want to the local counter person at the car parts place.

Thanks,

Dave


Michael Richards wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...

First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to constantly
educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband sensors.

Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in fact
you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an ignition
timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as well. If you
accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause incorrect readings.

My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated and
accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper mixture
display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1 under
power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If you
properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it leaner
without any ill effects for fuel economy.

-Michael

> I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
> duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670
> throttle body injection unit.
>
> I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
> closed loop mode. When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the
> AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the
> point where it will barely run. Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture
> when it appears it is not? I have tried two O2 sensors with the same
> result. Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
>
> I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on the
> O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to run
> right, until now.
>
_________________________________________________________________
http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians

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From RFEHN at amfam.com  Wed Jun 14 09:36:08 2006
From: RFEHN at amfam.com (Fehn, Ron G)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:36:08 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
Message-ID: <FF774F51FA4E0D40A959FE453739DCD7037CD102@NHQ1ACCOEX03VS1.corporate.amfam.com>

as a tip i will suggest a stainless bung.  when the 02 needs to be
removed it makes the job easier.  the 02 can be in collector however if
ceramic you may want to add an adapter after the collector that header
mfg sells.  or i welded bung into ext pipe just behind collector.  works
well.

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 8:50 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..


quite often a bung is welded on the down pipe as an aftermarket Wide
band O2 is installed... the O2 should have enought threads to screw into
the actual bung, and the sensor part will extend into the exhaust flow
area..
   
  jim
   
  

David Rowley <david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
  I have another question about O2 placement.

I was looking at the O2 tonight and the bung is welded on the outside of
the header collector. It doesn't look like the O2 is sticking very far
into the exhaust stream. If the O2 tip is not out into the exhaust flow,
would this cause it to give it rich reading? I put a DVM on the O2 (with
the negative lead attached next to the O2 sensor) and found that when
cold, the O2 sensor voltage measure about .450 volts. As it heats up,
the voltage increases to about .875 volts. If I introduce air (undoing
the PCV hose), the reading does not change. I tried this again with
another new O2 sensor and got the same result. 

Is the O2 tip somehow shielded from the exhaust flow causing it always
read rich?

Thanks,

Dave


Daniel Nicoson wrote:
The local parts guy won't have this device.

The wide band sensors being referred to that also have NB output are
aftermarket units that have their own controller circuit (box).

All wide band sensors have their own corresponding control circuit.

Google "Wide Band O2"

You should see most of the offerings with that search.

For a very good technical discussion of all the considerations of NB &
WB
systems, find the Megasquirt web site and look for their dissertation on
the
subject of oxygen sensors. Pretty involved the way those guys do a
project.

Happy reading.

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of David Rowley
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:48 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..

First al all, I want to thank everyone for their inputs. I very much
appreciate the help.

I have never heard of a wide band O2 that also has narrow band output.
How does this work? Are there two different wires to select from for
output? Under what part number and whom would I find one?

I like the idea of trying this, but I have no idea how I would explain
what I want to the local counter person at the car parts place.

Thanks,

Dave


Michael Richards wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...

First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to constantly
educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband sensors.

Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in fact
you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an ignition
timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as well. If you
accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause incorrect
readings.

My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated and
accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper mixture
display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1 under
power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If you
properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it leaner
without any ill effects for fuel economy.

-Michael

> I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
> duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670
> throttle body injection unit.
>
> I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
> closed loop mode. When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the
> AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the
> point where it will barely run. Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture
> when it appears it is not? I have tried two O2 sensors with the same
> result. Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
>
> I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on the
> O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to run
> right, until now.
>
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From automotivelectronics at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 14 09:42:39 2006
From: automotivelectronics at hotmail.com (Gary Spooner)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 10:42:39 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <20060614134950.412.qmail@web36708.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY114-F336C79D0A53EFA5FD62C68D88D0@phx.gbl>

Hi Jim.

Yep, if the 02 is not immersed fully into the exhaust stream it will give an 
incorrect indication. Avoid any diagnostic routines until the 02 is 
repositioned.

Gary

_________________________________________________________________
Auto news & advice ? check out Sympatico / MSN Autos 
http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/Default.aspx



From RFEHN at amfam.com  Wed Jun 14 09:43:26 2006
From: RFEHN at amfam.com (Fehn, Ron G)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:43:26 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
Message-ID: <FF774F51FA4E0D40A959FE453739DCD7043C7273@NHQ1ACCOEX03VS1.corporate.amfam.com>

bung should be antwhere from 10 o clock to 2 o clock on pipe.  it does
not take much to kill one either. mine is wired to go on with fuel pump
ON and OFF with starter cranking and ON when car starts.

i would buy a spare 02 but not from the supplier of unit as they mark up
double your cost.  
-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of Michael Richards
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 12:37 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..


On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:07:04 -0700, Frank McCracken wrote...

> Michael,
> Could you please elaborate on o2 sensor placement? I have my 3 wire
> sensor mounted facing up at about a 45deg angle.
> Frank.

If the sensor is facing up at a 45 degree angle it is bad. This has been
known to kill sensors (years ago I killed a few expensive sensors from
this). On some cars condensation will get in there and settle on the
sensor. Then the sudden heat shock will break the ceramic based element
inside. This is how the bosch rep describes it. I do know that I fixed
the location on my car and it stopped killing sensors. You can probably
get away with it a little lower than midway on the pipe but it's a good
rule of thumb. I suspect too that the bottom of the exhaust may suffer
from a higher HC content as it will be heavier but I've never done any
experiements to validate this. I like the heat pen trick given in
another post. Normally I just rev the engine a little and with an IR
pyrometer look for about 500C. The exhaust temps during cruise usualy
make up for the difference. 

-Michael
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From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 14 09:56:24 2006
From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 07:56:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
In-Reply-To: <002e01c68f70$60d0bec0$6501a8c0@flamingo>
Message-ID: <20060614145624.64589.qmail@web36704.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

On a production Grand Prix, the factory mounts it in the downpipe... this is angled about 45' downward slope and its mounted on top... after the cat Ive seen them mounted on top of the pipe that is parallel with the ground and also out of the side of the pipe at a 9 O'clcok position if your looking from the cat down the pipe... 
   
  jim

Frank McCracken <frankmccracken at shaw.ca> wrote:
  Michael,
Could you please elaborate on o2 sensor placement? I have my 3 wire sensor
mounted facing up at about a 45deg angle.
Frank.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Richards" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:23 PM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..


> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 21:01:40 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...
>
> O2 placement... The sensor needs to be mounted no lower than parallel
> with the ground. It must be before any cats and after any turbos. As for
> how much of the tip is directly in the exhaust stream I've never really
> found that much of a difference. You may be able to use a zip-cut wheel
> on a grinder to make your bung shorter if you think it's a big issue but
> that's dicy for getting a good seal afterwards and you will need to run
> a tap through the hole. A good quality M18x1.5 tap is expensive.
>
> -Michael
>
> > I was looking at the O2 tonight and the bung is welded on the outside
> > of the header collector. It doesn't look like the O2 is sticking very
> > far into the exhaust stream. If the O2 tip is not out into the
> > exhaust flow, would this cause it to give it rich reading? I put a
> > DVM on the O2 (with the negative lead attached next to the O2 sensor)
> > and found that when cold, the O2 sensor voltage measure about .450
> > volts. As it heats up, the voltage increases to about .875 volts. If
> > I introduce air (undoing the PCV hose), the reading does not change.
> > I tried this again with another new O2 sensor and got the same result.
> >
> > Is the O2 tip somehow shielded from the exhaust flow causing it always
> > read rich?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > Daniel Nicoson wrote:
> > The local parts guy won't have this device.
> >
> > The wide band sensors being referred to that also have NB output are
> > aftermarket units that have their own controller circuit (box).
> >
> > All wide band sensors have their own corresponding control circuit.
> >
> > Google "Wide Band O2"
> >
> > You should see most of the offerings with that search.
> >
> > For a very good technical discussion of all the considerations of NB &
> > WB systems, find the Megasquirt web site and look for their
> > dissertation on the subject of oxygen sensors. Pretty involved the way
> > those guys do a project.
> >
> > Happy reading.
> >
> > Dan Nicoson
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org
> > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of David Rowley
> > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:48 PM
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
> >
> > First al all, I want to thank everyone for their inputs. I very much
> > appreciate the help.
> >
> > I have never heard of a wide band O2 that also has narrow band output.
> > How does this work? Are there two different wires to select from for
> > output? Under what part number and whom would I find one?
> >
> > I like the idea of trying this, but I have no idea how I would explain
> > what I want to the local counter person at the car parts place.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > Michael Richards wrote:
> > On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:45:28 -0700 (PDT), David Rowley wrote...
> >
> > First of all I have to say that tuning with a narrow band O2 sensor is
> > useless. I've been tuning for almost 7 years not and have to
> > constantly educate people about the inaccuracies of narrowband
> > sensors.
> >
> > Second, your readings may be related to the position of the O2 sensor.
> > If you overheat a narrowband they will frequently read rich when in
> > fact you're running lean. This too can sometimes be caused by an
> > ignition timing issue too much retard will over heat the sensor as
> > well. If you accidentally put it after a cat then that too will cause
> > incorrect readings.
> >
> > My suggestion is to replace the narrow band with a wideband that also
> > has a narrow output. This way you can have a proper temp-compensated
> > and accurate O2 reading converted to narrow band plus have a proper
> > mixture display on the dash. The 383 should like somewhere in the 13:1
> > under power and should run just fine in the low 15's under cruise. If
> > you properly balance all 8 cylinders with a pyrometer you can run it
> > leaner without any ill effects for fuel economy.
> >
> > -Michael
> >
> >> I have a chevy 383 motor with Vortec Heads, GMPP hot cam (218-228
> >> duration, roller), Edelbrock RPM Air gap manifold and a Holley 670
> >> throttle body injection unit.
> >>
> >> I have a problem where the car runs and idles great, until it goes to
> >> closed loop mode. When this happens, the ECM starts leaning out the
> >> AFR (the block learn goes down the minimum, 108 in this case) to the
> >> point where it will barely run. Why is the O2 seeing a rich mixture
> >> when it appears it is not? I have tried two O2 sensors with the same
> >> result. Does it have to do the the cam duration and manifold type?
> >>
> >> I have tuned a few vehicles and I have always been able to rely on
> >> the O2 sensor ( with the Integrator and BLM numbers) to get them to
> >> run right, until now.
> >>
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
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> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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From frankmccracken at shaw.ca  Wed Jun 14 10:49:03 2006
From: frankmccracken at shaw.ca (Frank McCracken)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 08:49:03 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
References: <20060614054154.587B9861C75@mail.fastmail.ca>
Message-ID: <003c01c68fca$10153970$6501a8c0@flamingo>

Thanks fella's,
The car is also subjected to many short trips. I'd better fix that.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Richards" <michael at fastmail.ca>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..


> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 22:07:04 -0700, Frank McCracken wrote...
> 
> > Michael,
> > Could you please elaborate on o2 sensor placement? I have my 3 wire
> > sensor mounted facing up at about a 45deg angle.
> > Frank.
> 
> If the sensor is facing up at a 45 degree angle it is bad. This has been
> known to kill sensors (years ago I killed a few expensive sensors from
> this). On some cars condensation will get in there and settle on the
> sensor. Then the sudden heat shock will break the ceramic based element
> inside. This is how the bosch rep describes it. I do know that I fixed
> the location on my car and it stopped killing sensors. You can probably
> get away with it a little lower than midway on the pipe but it's a good
> rule of thumb. I suspect too that the bottom of the exhaust may suffer
> from a higher HC content as it will be heavier but I've never done any
> experiements to validate this. I like the heat pen trick given in
> another post. Normally I just rev the engine a little and with an IR
> pyrometer look for about 500C. The exhaust temps during cruise usualy
> make up for the difference. 
> 
> -Michael
> _________________________________________________________________
>     http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/362 - Release Date: 6/12/2006
> 
> 


From dpaauw at netwiz.net  Wed Jun 14 13:52:29 2006
From: dpaauw at netwiz.net (Don Paauw)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:52:29 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Reversing EPROM decryption board
In-Reply-To: <20060614111758.7476.qmail@web25309.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20060614145229.008bb180@216.251.43.97>

You will need to play with the NVRAM's /CS.  If there is a separate /RD line,
tie that high and try tying /CS low (and pull it high before shutting down to
prevent spuriuous writes).  If that doesn't work, you can try tying /CS and /W
together but it would be best to poke around looking for another signal that
would correspond to the EPROM /CS, maybe one of the PEEL inputs.
It's usually better to have /WR framed by all the other signals.
If the NVRAM has one RD/WR line rather than separate /RD /WR lines,
tie RD/WR low and tie /CS to /OE.
If the NVRAM has any /OE input, tie that high to prevent bus contentions.
These are general rules-of-thumb.  Let me know your NVRAM part number and
an URL for the data sheet, if you have that.

-- Don 



At 12:17 PM 6/14/06 +0100, you wrote:
>Don,
>   
>  just checked: /CS is kept low all the time, /OE is the only one
moving... Whenever the EPROM area is accessed, the /OE goes low... Does it
change something? I mean, as long as NVRAM's /W is connected to the /OE, it
should be fine.. or?
>   
>  Unfortunatelly, I am not able to control the address lines, I was
controlling them only by software...
>   
>  The rest is clear... I will make the board over weekend and let you know
how it went. Hopefully I won't fry the ECU :)).
>   
>  Regards,
>NG
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
>  Conceptually this is correct but check all of the timing specs. For NVRAM,
>make sure it is fast enough and if there is only one bank of EPROMs, make
>sure the /CS is actually moving. You will be loading the address & data
>busses with more capacitance but only one or two more chips should be fine.
>You'll probably want to gate the RAM /CS for a clean shutdown.
>It sounds like you are already driving the address lines, so if you can
>control
>the control signals as well, then there should be no speed or timing
problems.
>
>Address sequencing may be checked by rules like: address are sequential
unless
>a branch or data access is seen, ISR vectors are constant, etc.
>
>-- Don
>
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>


From llemoine at gmail.com  Wed Jun 14 15:45:44 2006
From: llemoine at gmail.com (Lee M. Lemoine)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:45:44 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
In-Reply-To: <20060614134809.62840.qmail@web36702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <bedc2dea0606132101y710e2dcpd0cc035fe7bc06a2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060614134809.62840.qmail@web36702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bedc2dea0606141345i64b6e9e1r32675220d4d37b6a@mail.gmail.com>

yes, same thing here -- subaru guys with manual transmissions were known to
do the opposite, always keep the throttle at 1% so that the fuel cut
mechanism didn't come in when you let off the throttle, made the car coast
nicer as it appears the subaru guys hadn't found a 'nice' way to turn the
fuel back on without violent AWD power 'slams'.



On 6/14/06, Jim Butterfield <jimbutterfield at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Jumping in a littlelate here.... but in the GP world before the advent fo
> pcm tuners, we would elongate the two mounting holes on the TPS to optimize
> the settings for 0v and max of 5v ( or 4.9v) closed, and  WOT
>
>   jim
>
> "Lee M. Lemoine" <llemoine at gmail.com> wrote:
>   Keith,
>
> My thoughts are now perhaps turned to the TPS sensor. I remember that on
> my
> Mclaren motor, i had to elongate the mounting holes on the sensor just
> slightly because it kept flickering between 0v and .07v at 'zero'
> throttle,
> which kept causing my idle to surge because of the throttle pump setting
> (picture tapping the throttle constantly)
>
> I'll help you with this when i see you next (read: tomorrow morning) but i
> figured i'd post the response for the group to see / learn from.
>
> Another thought is that we should set the idle for the minimum value (700
> rpm) with the set screw and observe for vaccum leaks pre-MAF and in the
> rest
> of the hard lines on the car -- either with propane or ultrasonically.
> either way, that would cause a surge because i'm pretty sure the way most
> ECM's figure the 'bump' in idle speed is a certain number of 'steps' on
> the
> IAC. perhaps that may be the issue, a difference in diameter of the holes
> in the IAC (overall volume of airflow)
>
>
>
> On 6/13/06, Keith Varin wrote:
> >
> > I am using the TwEECer R/T system to tune my car. I just picked one up
> > from
> > www.promustangperformance.com however i am still new to the unit and
> have
> > not really gotten a grasp of what settings do what. As far as adjusting
> > the
> > idle... I've set the idle adjustment screw so that the car runs and to
> > temporaily get around the hanging idle issue i have actually unplugged
> the
> > IAC motor. I tried replacing it, however it made no difference. Im just
> > wondering why this happened after I installed throttle body, and why it
> > only reacts the way it does when it id raining out...
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > On 6/13/06, Daniel Nicoson wrote:
> > >
> > > Keith,
> > >
> > > What have you done to adjust the idle with the new throttle
> > > body? Normally,
> > > you would disconnect the ignition spout connector, disconnect the IAC
> > and
> > > then manually adjust the throttle plate one "screw-turn" off
> > closed. Then
> > > adjust the idle bleed screw so the engine will idle without any
> computer
> > > help (this would be with every load off, defroster to off, lights off
> > > etc.)
> > >
> > > Once you get it to idle like this (fully warmed up), then turn off and
> > > plug
> > > all back in. See if it is better then.
> > >
> > > If you were tuning the computer with a TwEECer or similar device then
> we
> > > could do more but if you are not modifying computer settings, not much
> > > else
> > > you can do.
> > >
> > > HTH,
> > >
> > > Dan Nicoson
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org
> ]On
> > > Behalf Of Keith Varin
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:08 PM
> > > To: Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
> > >
> > > Hey everyone. First I would like to thank you all for viewing this
> > thread.
> > >
> > > I have a 1994 Ford Mustang Cobra with the 5.0 GT-40 motor and a manual
> > > transmission. It is still relativly stock however with a few small
> mods
> > I
> > > began to have a hanging idle. After installing a new TB and headers
> the
> > > idle
> > > would hang around 1800 rpms. my first thought was that i probably had
> a
> > > leak
> > > in the intake tract somewhere. So i disassembled the intake and
> resealed
> > > everything with rtv and high-tack gasket sealer. The problem went
> away,
> > so
> > > I
> > > figured I had fixed it.Low and behold, 3 days later it was raining out
> > and
> > > I
> > > began my 17 mile trip to work. Halfway there I realized that my car
> was
> > > still idling around 1800rpms, so the work I had done did not fix the
> > > problem.
> > >
> > > I have since paid close attention to the conditions of the environment
> > and
> > > of my vehicle when the idle stays high, here is what I have figured
> out.
> > >
> > > When moving at any speed greater than 15mph with the vehicle in
> neutral
> > or
> > > with the clutch pressed, the car will idle at or around 1100 rpms, and
> > > when
> > > the vehicle comes to a stop it will idle at 800-900 (which is normal).
> > > However, any time it is raining or very damn outside the car will idle
> > at
> > > 1800rpms at any speed 15mph or greater with the vehicle in neutral or
> > with
> > > the clutch pressed.
> > >
> > > If anyone has any input on why my car might be doing this or any ideas
> > on
> > > ways to fix this problem. please feel free to shout it out.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Keith
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Diy_efi mailing list
> > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Diy_efi mailing list
> > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> Lee M. Lemoine
> KB1NQI - Amateur Radio
> http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/
> '06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT
> '93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!)
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>



-- 
Sincerely,
Lee M. Lemoine
KB1NQI  - Amateur Radio
http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/
'06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT
'93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!)


From keithvarin at gmail.com  Wed Jun 14 15:49:36 2006
From: keithvarin at gmail.com (Keith Varin)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:49:36 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tiny injectors and fuel pump?
In-Reply-To: <20060613234331.50837.qmail@web52915.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20060613234331.50837.qmail@web52915.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d6cb3a1a0606141349x6ef1889dmf9dac802dfd67f56@mail.gmail.com>

Nathanael,
  Try looking into the "cold start injectors" commonly found in Saab
vehicles. It is commonplace for those of us who tune with limited
aftermarket parts to use these as a way to add just a little bit more fuel
to a higher boost vehicle. Also, a fuel pump from an older carburated car
may work for you as an inline pump, however your difficulty will be in
setting up a pressure regulation system to set the proper fuel pre-load into
the injector, once youve got that all planned out, you should be all set.

Keith

On 6/13/06, nathanael portelli <silent_thunder888 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi All!
>
> I'm planning to build an EFI system for a small 72cc 4-stroke engine. I've
> already designed most of the system, and I have or can obtain all that I
> need . . . . or nearly . . .
>
> I dont know where to get siutably small injectors and a fuel pump!!! Does
> any of you have the least idea how I can obtain some? The only source I can
> imagine is the european [PGM-FI version] of the Honda Zoomer/Ruckus, but
> it's not for sale in my country, so I cant get them from spares [btu i think
> they would be great because they are for similarly sized engines and have
> good atomization].
>
> Thanks for any help or ideas!
>
> N
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>



-- 
Keith Varin


From silent_thunder888 at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 14 17:43:05 2006
From: silent_thunder888 at yahoo.com (nathanael portelli)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:43:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tiny injectors and fuel pump?
In-Reply-To: <d6cb3a1a0606141349x6ef1889dmf9dac802dfd67f56@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060614224306.81429.qmail@web52901.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Keith,

Thanks for the tip, I never knew that there were specific injectors for cold
enrichment! I'll try looking for those, even though they could still be a bit rare
over here. 

At the same time I will try to contact a Zoomer forum and see if they can source
parts for me. The zoomer parts are very PRETTY for this application also
because the pump has an in-built regulator, so the fuel system is "only" the
pump and the injector . Then the only thing left for me to add would be a bubble
trap [a tiny tank], with a cutoff switch to the ECU so that I avoid getting air into
the HP line, then I wont have to worry about switching from main to reserve lines
before I drop below the lower main level. [after all, building the rest of the system
is already enough without having to worry about regulation]


Nathanael

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From justin at jacomms.com  Wed Jun 14 18:06:24 2006
From: justin at jacomms.com (Justin Albury)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 09:06:24 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] eprom decryption
In-Reply-To: <200606130300.k5D2xxsY018957@mail08.syd.optusnet.com.au>
References: <200606130300.k5D2xxsY018957@mail08.syd.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <44909670.4070809@jacomms.com>

a simple way around this ( which has worked on about 90% of the time for 
me ) to make an adapter up to mix up your data and address lines 
.....then read through the scrambler ( most of these units are to stop 
you from doing a normal read of the chip ) save your image them program 
a blank chip with the scrambled image through your adapter you built 
then you should have a unscrambled image.....now you can remove your 
adapter and read the chip as normal. like i said ....this has worked 
with about 90% of the scramblers i have struck.......some of them use a 
clock sig from the ecu....most eprom programers wont allow you to change 
this. all the best

justin

mdacmail at optusnet.com.au wrote:
> It sounds as though the data bus intercepting chips are scrambling the data bits based on the address. I would be guessing at address X
>
> bit1 -> bit4
> bit2 -> bit6....etc
>
> and address Y
>
> bit1 -> bit 7
> bit2 -> bit1....etc
>
> Just a unique set of scrambling 'rules' depending on the address. Have you thought of writing a program that tries different descrambling rules on the eprom image, then analyses the result, looking for how much code is actually executable by the 68HC11? If your program never finds more than say 100 consecutive bytes of executable code using a particular descrambling rule, then that attempt could abort and try something else. This could be very time consuming but seems quite automatable. Obviously you would only do this if you feel you are entitled to be decoding someone elses work for your own use :)
>
>
>
>
>   
>> diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org wrote:
>>
>> Send Diy_efi mailing list submissions to
>> 	diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> 	http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> 	diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> 	diy_efi-owner at diy-efi.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Diy_efi digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Reversing EPROM decryption board (Don Paauw)
>>    2. Re: O2 says rich, car runs lean.. (Gary Spooner)
>>    3. Re: O2 says rich, car runs lean.. (Michael Richards)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 23:58:27 -0400
>> From: Don Paauw <dpaauw at netwiz.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Reversing EPROM decryption board
>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20060611235827.00907bf0 at 216.251.43.97>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> NG (related to Stevan?),
>> It seems that since the address lines are direct, the decryption cannot 
>> be
>> changing on-the-fly (i.e. LFSR, state machine, etc.) so I would think 
>> that
>> every
>> address would be decrypted the same way every time.  A brute force 
>> approach
>> would be
>> to have a RAM bank twice the width of the data bus and on every EPROM 
>> read,
>> write the
>> EPROM and the decrypted data into the RAM.  Over time, you will get lot 
>> of
>> adresses
>> and their decoding.  Some software munging may show a pattern and/or you
>> may be able
>> to use a non-critical area to try your trojan again.  I'm not familiar 
>> with
>> the
>> PEEL or 68hc11 but it wouldn't take much to make sure that 128 bytes 
>> plus
>> some vectors
>> exactly match but, obviously, it's silly check the entire EPROM, other 
>> than
>> by checksum
>> or by sectored checksum.  Actually, you may want to consider that and 
>> make
>> sure that
>> the unprotected area checksum always matches.  The rest of this could be
>> moot.   But
>> checksums can be easily convoluted by simply shifting bytes or feeding
>> through LFSRs
>> so this could be a frustrating exercise.
>>
>> This assumes that passive measures are required.  The first brute force
>> method would
>> be to just walk the address bus and observe the results but from your
>> experiences, I
>> would think they've anticipated that and found a way to detect it.
>>
>> I realize that you are trying to achieve this by just reprogramming the
>> EPROM but I
>> don't see, offhand, anything you've missed in that approach, except
>> experimenting with
>> encrypted bytes, which could be dangerous (engine-wise) and probably
>> inconclusive.
>> Just to ease the hardware
>> approach, assuming you don't have access to a logic analyzer and the 
>> PEEL
>> (and everyting
>> else) isn't clock-speed-sensitive, you could use a PC to drive the clock
>> and drive/monitor the
>> address/data lines. I'm not sure this would be easier than building a
>> dedicated monitoring
>> board, but it would allow you to put just about everything under 
>> software
>> control and make
>> other attacks easier.
>>
>> -- Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 10:23 PM 6/11/06 +0100, you wrote:
>>     
>>> Hello all,
>>>   
>>>  I have an ECU based on 68hc11 microcontroller. It has an external 
>>>       
>> EPROM
>> for storing firmware and calibration data. However, the contents of the
>> EPROM is encrypted, the image my EPROM programmator is reading is 
>> clearly
>> different from the one 68hc11 is seeing when running.
>>     
>>>   
>>>  Two (read protected) PEEL chips are used to make decryption. One is
>>>       
>> intercepting data bus lines between EPROM and CPU, the other is 
>> "listening"
>> the address bus and is also connected to the first PEEL. Addresses are 
>> fed
>> directly to the EPROM (no folding whatsoever).
>>     
>>>   
>>>  There are two unencrypted zones in the EPROM: the one is at the very
>>>       
>> end, where the interrupt vectors addresses are stored and the other is
>> where reset vector is pointing to (area of about 128 bytes is 
>> unencrypted
>> there).
>>     
>>>   
>>>  First, I wrote a small program to send the chip contents to the 
>>>       
>> serial
>> port, with a PC listening on the other side. The code runs fine if I
>> connect the chip directly to the data bus (so code is ok). I located the
>> code in unencrypted area of the EPROM to avoid PEELs atempting to 
>> decrypt
>> it... however, it did not run when the EPROM was connected to the data 
>> bus
>> using PEELs... Nothing was comming out of the serial port, so I realized 
>> my
>> code has not been executed at all. 
>>     
>>>   
>>>  So PEELs somehow realized that I was executing a fake code... 
>>>   
>>>  Ok, I tried next thing - I changed one of the interrupt vectors to 
>>>       
>> point
>> to my "trojan" code. This was input capture interrupt, and it should be
>> triggered at any time crank trigger sends a pulse... The rest of the 
>> chip
>> contents was stock, just one vector address changed and a few bytes 
>> written
>> for the actual code of the trojan... however, this did not work again...
>> although stock code was all over the place, it was clear that nothing 
>> was
>> executing as it should... 
>>     
>>>   
>>>  Then, used completely stock code, and only altered one address in the
>>>       
>> interrupt vector table. UNUSED interrupt vector!!! The code didn't run
>> anymore. So, PEELs somehow realized that the interrupt vector table has
>> been tampered. 
>>     
>>>   
>>>  Then I rewrote my trojan to let the interrupt table remain the same 
>>>       
>> and
>> to let the stock code execute in the unencrypted section... and added 
>> just
>> one jump to my trojan at the end of unencrypted section... this didn't 
>> work
>> either....
>>     
>>>   
>>>  I went one step forward - I "booted" the ECU with stock chip, then 
>>>       
>> while
>> keeping the /RESET low, I changed the chip to the one containing my 
>> trojan.
>> I expected the PEELs to be fully unlocked by then - and ready to execute 
>> my
>> code... however, PEELs got it even this time and the thing didn't run...
>> How on Earth... PEELs are only connected to the address and data 
>> buses...
>> no way could they recognize a reset. But they got locked, probably by
>> seeing the reset vector being read again...
>>     
>>>   
>>>  It can't be the chip checksum, as any checksum routine could be 
>>>       
>> executed
>> only after my trojan has finished it job...
>>     
>>>   
>>>  I am getting desperate about this, as I could not think of something 
>>>       
>> new
>> to try. 
>>     
>>>   
>>>  If somebody can give me assistance, that would be great. Also an
>>>       
>> explanation of how such systems work would be of use...
>>     
>>>   
>>>  I could email original chip contents and the trojan that I wrote for
>>>       
>> dumping the contents of the EPROM... if anyone is interested...
>>     
>>>   
>>>  many thanks,
>>>  NG
>>>
>>> Send instant messages to your online friends 
>>>       
>> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 
>>     
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 02:28:38 -0400
>> From: "Gary Spooner" <automotivelectronics at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Message-ID: <BAY114-F2193B5AEF4341157DA5930D88F0 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>>
>> Hello.
>>
>> Regarding narrow band 02's I have to disagree with the opinion about 
>> narrow 
>> band inabilities to provide and accurate indication of 02 content. This 
>> sensor has proven over the years to maintain 02 content within emission 
>> specs where the algorithm is not biased to look for an alternate backup 
>> if 
>> closed loop info fails. Narrow band sensors are capable of millisecond 
>> response and range even to the point of indicating incomplete combustion 
>>
>> from a cylinder or cylinders if observed on a scope with resolution 
>> 200m/sec 
>> and .25Mhz.
>>
>> Tuning accompanying the use of a scanner to indicate 02 voltage, 
>> interrogator values and long term conditions, using the factory 
>> computer, 
>> have found tuning to be very easy and let the computer scrub the 
>> converter 
>> even at idle speed. Factory constants have to be changed but the result 
>> of 
>> the adjustments is impressive. I have setup numerous boats and even 
>> tailored 
>> a rat?s nest of mismatched parts creating algorithms that work. Don't 
>> jump 
>> on the wide band wagon (lol) yet. Narrow works well to...
>>
>> Gary/RPM Research
>> rpm-research.com
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Auto news & advice ? check out Sympatico / MSN Autos 
>> http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/Default.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:44:59 +0000 (UTC)
>> From: "Michael Richards" <michael at fastmail.ca>
>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] O2 says rich, car runs lean..
>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Message-ID: <20060612144508.B5AA886170D at mail.fastmail.ca>
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>>
>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 02:28:38 -0400, Gary Spooner wrote...
>>
>> The narrowband thing is not really an opinion, it's based on scientific
>> fact. Narrowband sensors are designed to discriminate between richer
>> than 14.7 and leaner than 14.7. Nothing more. You can get a vague idea
>> of the actual AFR is by looking at the actual output away from the
>> switching point but it is by no means accurate.
>>
>> OEMs have been using narrowband sensors for years because it is in a
>> fixed and tested location and since the tuning is fixed the temps are
>> also predictable. In the original poster's case we're dealing with a
>> modified engine producing more than stock output numbers. Very difficult
>> to predict the temps of that sensor and the setup is outside the OEM's
>> designed application.
>>
>> -Michael
>>
>>     
>>> Regarding narrow band 02's I have to disagree with the opinion about
>>> narrow band inabilities to provide and accurate indication of 02
>>> content. This sensor has proven over the years to maintain 02 content
>>> within emission specs where the algorithm is not biased to look for an
>>> alternate backup if closed loop info fails. Narrow band sensors are
>>> capable of millisecond response and range even to the point of
>>> indicating incomplete combustion from a cylinder or cylinders if
>>> observed on a scope with resolution 200m/sec and .25Mhz.
>>>
>>> Tuning accompanying the use of a scanner to indicate 02 voltage,
>>> interrogator values and long term conditions, using the factory
>>> computer, have found tuning to be very easy and let the computer scrub
>>> the converter even at idle speed. Factory constants have to be changed
>>> but the result of the adjustments is impressive. I have setup numerous
>>> boats and even tailored a rat?s nest of mismatched parts creating
>>> algorithms that work. Don't jump on the wide band wagon (lol) yet.
>>> Narrow works well to...
>>>
>>> Gary/RPM Research
>>> rpm-research.com
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Auto news & advice ? check out Sympatico / MSN Autos
>>> http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/Default.aspx
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>       
>> _________________________________________________________________
>>     http://fastmail.ca/ - Fast Secure Web Email for Canadians
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>>
>> End of Diy_efi Digest, Vol 16, Issue 11
>> ***************************************
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>   


From A6intruder at myo-p.com  Wed Jun 14 19:19:55 2006
From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 20:19:55 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
In-Reply-To: <20060614134809.62840.qmail@web36702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLECEKGHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>

Concerning the TPS sensor, you want the TPS signal to be less than 1.0 volt
when at idle.  What throttle body did you switch to?

As far as acting up when damp, that would only suggest that you have a short
or bad connection somewhere and the dampness/water is entering the picture.

Are you sure the water thing isn't just coincidence?  If you had a vacuum
leak that was hard to find/seal, maybe it took three days for the RTV to
fail and let the leak happen again.

Sign up and post on the Yahoo Groups TwEECer list.  You'll get some more
TwEECer experience there.  Usually we can solve a problem like this.  On my
1994 with the T4MO EEC I never had to solve that particular problem but I
did have fun with the idle.



Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jim Butterfield
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 9:48 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...

Jumping in a littlelate here.... but in the GP world before the advent fo
pcm tuners, we would elongate the two mounting holes on the TPS to optimize
the settings for 0v and max of 5v ( or 4.9v) closed, and  WOT

  jim

"Lee M. Lemoine" <llemoine at gmail.com> wrote:
  Keith,

My thoughts are now perhaps turned to the TPS sensor. I remember that on my
Mclaren motor, i had to elongate the mounting holes on the sensor just
slightly because it kept flickering between 0v and .07v at 'zero' throttle,
which kept causing my idle to surge because of the throttle pump setting
(picture tapping the throttle constantly)

I'll help you with this when i see you next (read: tomorrow morning) but i
figured i'd post the response for the group to see / learn from.

Another thought is that we should set the idle for the minimum value (700
rpm) with the set screw and observe for vaccum leaks pre-MAF and in the rest
of the hard lines on the car -- either with propane or ultrasonically.
either way, that would cause a surge because i'm pretty sure the way most
ECM's figure the 'bump' in idle speed is a certain number of 'steps' on the
IAC. perhaps that may be the issue, a difference in diameter of the holes
in the IAC (overall volume of airflow)



On 6/13/06, Keith Varin wrote:
>
> I am using the TwEECer R/T system to tune my car. I just picked one up
> from
> www.promustangperformance.com however i am still new to the unit and have
> not really gotten a grasp of what settings do what. As far as adjusting
> the
> idle... I've set the idle adjustment screw so that the car runs and to
> temporaily get around the hanging idle issue i have actually unplugged the
> IAC motor. I tried replacing it, however it made no difference. Im just
> wondering why this happened after I installed throttle body, and why it
> only reacts the way it does when it id raining out...
>
> Keith
>
> On 6/13/06, Daniel Nicoson wrote:
> >
> > Keith,
> >
> > What have you done to adjust the idle with the new throttle
> > body? Normally,
> > you would disconnect the ignition spout connector, disconnect the IAC
> and
> > then manually adjust the throttle plate one "screw-turn" off
> closed. Then
> > adjust the idle bleed screw so the engine will idle without any computer
> > help (this would be with every load off, defroster to off, lights off
> > etc.)
> >
> > Once you get it to idle like this (fully warmed up), then turn off and
> > plug
> > all back in. See if it is better then.
> >
> > If you were tuning the computer with a TwEECer or similar device then we
> > could do more but if you are not modifying computer settings, not much
> > else
> > you can do.
> >
> > HTH,
> >
> > Dan Nicoson
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
> > Behalf Of Keith Varin
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 10:08 PM
> > To: Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: [Diy_efi] 94-95 5.0 Mustang and a hanging idle...
> >
> > Hey everyone. First I would like to thank you all for viewing this
> thread.
> >
> > I have a 1994 Ford Mustang Cobra with the 5.0 GT-40 motor and a manual
> > transmission. It is still relativly stock however with a few small mods
> I
> > began to have a hanging idle. After installing a new TB and headers the
> > idle
> > would hang around 1800 rpms. my first thought was that i probably had a
> > leak
> > in the intake tract somewhere. So i disassembled the intake and resealed
> > everything with rtv and high-tack gasket sealer. The problem went away,
> so
> > I
> > figured I had fixed it.Low and behold, 3 days later it was raining out
> and
> > I
> > began my 17 mile trip to work. Halfway there I realized that my car was
> > still idling around 1800rpms, so the work I had done did not fix the
> > problem.
> >
> > I have since paid close attention to the conditions of the environment
> and
> > of my vehicle when the idle stays high, here is what I have figured out.
> >
> > When moving at any speed greater than 15mph with the vehicle in neutral
> or
> > with the clutch pressed, the car will idle at or around 1100 rpms, and
> > when
> > the vehicle comes to a stop it will idle at 800-900 (which is normal).
> > However, any time it is raining or very damn outside the car will idle
> at
> > 1800rpms at any speed 15mph or greater with the vehicle in neutral or
> with
> > the clutch pressed.
> >
> > If anyone has any input on why my car might be doing this or any ideas
> on
> > ways to fix this problem. please feel free to shout it out.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Keith
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



--
Sincerely,
Lee M. Lemoine
KB1NQI - Amateur Radio
http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/
'06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT
'93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!)
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


 __________________________________________________
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From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Wed Jun 14 20:02:03 2006
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 20:02:03 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] test
Message-ID: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C7434140611783010386A8@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>

test, please ignore

-------------------
Steve Ravet
ARM
steve.ravet at arm.com

-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.



From higrafey at gmail.com  Wed Jun 14 21:14:44 2006
From: higrafey at gmail.com (Andy Harvilla)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 22:14:44 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?
Message-ID: <3478F605-43C9-4BDD-A35B-5ABD9178B3E0@gmail.com>

Hey guys,

I have an unusual "problem" (if you can even call it that) with my  
Jeep Wrangler that I think can be attributed to near-constant WOT  
operation.  Every year, no joke, I have to install a new muffler on  
my Jeep because the old one cracks underneath in exactly the same  
spot.  Even after only a few hundred miles of use, you can see the  
metal casing begin to warp and swell, presumably from high heat.

It occurred to me that this might be happening because of the way I  
drive the vehicle.  The little four-cylinder engine has no power  
(considering the 33-inch tires it's pushing) and I'm nearly always at  
full-throttle just to get the sucker to move... going up hills,  
highway driving, etc.  Do you think the computer is enabling WOT mode  
and richening up the mixture, which in turn heats up the catalytic  
converter and slowly melts the muffler?  There's always a constant  
rich smell and the tailpipe is usually black.  I had to install a cat  
due to inspection reasons (the previous owner hollowed it out), but  
before then, I never had an issue with mufflers blowing out.  It  
seems like the converter might be the root of the problem.  One of my  
friends owns a Wrangler, drives it the same way, and also replaces  
mufflers annually.  We always thought it was "just a Jeep thing"...  :-)

Andy


From liberty1 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 14 22:24:18 2006
From: liberty1 at gmail.com (Bobby Yates Emory)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:24:18 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Tiny injectors and fuel pump?
In-Reply-To: <20060614224306.81429.qmail@web52901.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <d6cb3a1a0606141349x6ef1889dmf9dac802dfd67f56@mail.gmail.com>
	<20060614224306.81429.qmail@web52901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <54b6188b0606142024u300a1258r152f80aefc8474c8@mail.gmail.com>

Nathanael,

Some BMW's also used the cold start injectors (80's 633 for one - but you
would probably want one from a 3 series).

Bobby


On 6/14/06, nathanael portelli <silent_thunder888 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Keith,
>
> Thanks for the tip, I never knew that there were specific injectors for
> cold
> enrichment! I'll try looking for those, even though they could still be a
> bit rare
> over here.
>
> At the same time I will try to contact a Zoomer forum and see if they can
> source
> parts for me. The zoomer parts are very PRETTY for this application also
> because the pump has an in-built regulator, so the fuel system is "only"
> the
> pump and the injector . Then the only thing left for me to add would be a
> bubble
> trap [a tiny tank], with a cutoff switch to the ECU so that I avoid
> getting air into
> the HP line, then I wont have to worry about switching from main to
> reserve lines
> before I drop below the lower main level. [after all, building the rest of
> the system
> is already enough without having to worry about regulation]
>
>
> Nathanael
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



-- 
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory


From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 14 22:29:11 2006
From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 20:29:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?
In-Reply-To: <3478F605-43C9-4BDD-A35B-5ABD9178B3E0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20060615032911.53949.qmail@web36701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello Andy, 
  There are a few of us in our club that have cars only for racing... and that means WOT for `1/4 strip... none of our mufflers wear out... have your good supports on the exhaust system???
   
  jim
  

Andy Harvilla <higrafey at gmail.com> wrote:
  Hey guys,

I have an unusual "problem" (if you can even call it that) with my 
Jeep Wrangler that I think can be attributed to near-constant WOT 
operation. Every year, no joke, I have to install a new muffler on 
my Jeep because the old one cracks underneath in exactly the same 
spot. Even after only a few hundred miles of use, you can see the 
metal casing begin to warp and swell, presumably from high heat.

It occurred to me that this might be happening because of the way I 
drive the vehicle. The little four-cylinder engine has no power 
(considering the 33-inch tires it's pushing) and I'm nearly always at 
full-throttle just to get the sucker to move... going up hills, 
highway driving, etc. Do you think the computer is enabling WOT mode 
and richening up the mixture, which in turn heats up the catalytic 
converter and slowly melts the muffler? There's always a constant 
rich smell and the tailpipe is usually black. I had to install a cat 
due to inspection reasons (the previous owner hollowed it out), but 
before then, I never had an issue with mufflers blowing out. It 
seems like the converter might be the root of the problem. One of my 
friends owns a Wrangler, drives it the same way, and also replaces 
mufflers annually. We always thought it was "just a Jeep thing"... :-)

Andy
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

From keithvarin at gmail.com  Wed Jun 14 22:39:51 2006
From: keithvarin at gmail.com (Keith Varin)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 23:39:51 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?
In-Reply-To: <20060615032911.53949.qmail@web36701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <3478F605-43C9-4BDD-A35B-5ABD9178B3E0@gmail.com>
	<20060615032911.53949.qmail@web36701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <d6cb3a1a0606142039g6a7b16ceo3574fb3944e68a75@mail.gmail.com>

I'm thinking you might wanna try going with a better gear ratio for those
huge tires that youve got on there. If I ran my car at WOT all the time i'd
be a bit more worried about the engine itself instead of the muffler!

On 6/14/06, Jim Butterfield <jimbutterfield at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Andy,
>   There are a few of us in our club that have cars only for racing... and
> that means WOT for `1/4 strip... none of our mufflers wear out... have your
> good supports on the exhaust system???
>
>   jim
>
>
> Andy Harvilla <higrafey at gmail.com> wrote:
>   Hey guys,
>
> I have an unusual "problem" (if you can even call it that) with my
> Jeep Wrangler that I think can be attributed to near-constant WOT
> operation. Every year, no joke, I have to install a new muffler on
> my Jeep because the old one cracks underneath in exactly the same
> spot. Even after only a few hundred miles of use, you can see the
> metal casing begin to warp and swell, presumably from high heat.
>
> It occurred to me that this might be happening because of the way I
> drive the vehicle. The little four-cylinder engine has no power
> (considering the 33-inch tires it's pushing) and I'm nearly always at
> full-throttle just to get the sucker to move... going up hills,
> highway driving, etc. Do you think the computer is enabling WOT mode
> and richening up the mixture, which in turn heats up the catalytic
> converter and slowly melts the muffler? There's always a constant
> rich smell and the tailpipe is usually black. I had to install a cat
> due to inspection reasons (the previous owner hollowed it out), but
> before then, I never had an issue with mufflers blowing out. It
> seems like the converter might be the root of the problem. One of my
> friends owns a Wrangler, drives it the same way, and also replaces
> mufflers annually. We always thought it was "just a Jeep thing"... :-)
>
> Andy
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



-- 
Keith Varin


From niche at iinet.net.au  Thu Jun 15 02:54:37 2006
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:54:37 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?
In-Reply-To: <3478F605-43C9-4BDD-A35B-5ABD9178B3E0@gmail.com>
References: <3478F605-43C9-4BDD-A35B-5ABD9178B3E0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060615154602.025981b0@iinet.net.au>>

At 10:14 AM 6/15/06, you wrote:
>I have an unusual "problem" (if you can even call it that) with my  
>Jeep Wrangler that I think can be attributed to near-constant WOT  
>operation.  Every year, no joke, I have to install a new muffler on  
>my Jeep because the old one cracks underneath in exactly the same  
>spot.  Even after only a few hundred miles of use, you can see the  
>metal casing begin to warp and swell, presumably from high heat.

A crack, in that environment, usually means metal fatigue, this can be
caused by any number of issues, inadequate design, excessive vibration,
resonance dynamics, type of mounting being too rigid or flexing in the
wrong area, leverage due to thermal expansion being aggravated etc etc 

Cheapest thing to do would be to weld it and support it in a different
way, just out of curiousity what revs are you doing at WOT to make
it move ?

If you have the means, I'd suggest (and I dont know for sure how its
mounted at the moment), you consider placing a wide band of steel
or aluminium around it (shouldnt melt even at WOT) and hang this from
the body on a pair of rubber mounts suitably positioned to avoid having
them exposed to too much heat - such as, make the band ends much
wider than the body of the muffler so when the rubber mounts are
screwed in the main bulk of heat rise wont go directly to the rubber mounts.

Ostensibly, you would be moving at WOT, so the muffler wont get hot
enough to melt a wide aluminium band around it and the rubber mounts
will be cooled enough anyway. I would use aluminium as its easier
to shape and drill to the task at hand but thin 1mm thick steel would be
ok...

For rubber mounts, you can use a slice of tyre, seen this very often for
aftermarket mods to exhaust systems, had something similar when I had
a 3" exhaust put through...




Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From jimster1 at earthlink.net  Thu Jun 15 03:24:20 2006
From: jimster1 at earthlink.net (Jim Bannister)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 01:24:20 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060615154602.025981b0@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <000c01c69055$1a3c7ef0$6500a8c0@daddy>

Have you checked your motor mounts?  At WOT your engine might be moving
enough in the mounts to physically mangle your muffler.  I've experienced
situations where engine movement has damaged the exhaust system.  The latest
case was in my FWD Ford van.  I came off a snowy patch with all four tires
spinning pretty good.  When the tires hit dry pavement the sudden jolt to
the power train twisted off the weld between the cat and muffler.
Jim B.

For rubber mounts, you can use a slice of tyre, seen this very often for
aftermarket mods to exhaust systems, had something similar when I had
a 3" exhaust put through...




From llemoine at gmail.com  Thu Jun 15 09:07:03 2006
From: llemoine at gmail.com (Lee M. Lemoine)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:07:03 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?
In-Reply-To: <000c01c69055$1a3c7ef0$6500a8c0@daddy>
References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060615154602.025981b0@iinet.net.au>
	<000c01c69055$1a3c7ef0$6500a8c0@daddy>
Message-ID: <bedc2dea0606150707v28e5c59fg4d99c97e8ba3c1d1@mail.gmail.com>

if you've got access to one, a K-type thermocouple pyrometer will give you
an indication of how hot the mufflers actually getting.  My thoughts on this
include that of some sort of exhaust shield.  My bronco 2 had a resonator
that would split as you mentioned, and it would do that simply until the
sheild was put back on.   Apparantly the temperature differentials of the
heat of the exhaust and getting it wet (or driving it in snow) was enough to
fatigue it pretty quickly.

Best regards

-- Lee

On 6/15/06, Jim Bannister <jimster1 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Have you checked your motor mounts?  At WOT your engine might be moving
> enough in the mounts to physically mangle your muffler.  I've experienced
> situations where engine movement has damaged the exhaust system.  The
> latest
> case was in my FWD Ford van.  I came off a snowy patch with all four tires
> spinning pretty good.  When the tires hit dry pavement the sudden jolt to
> the power train twisted off the weld between the cat and muffler.
> Jim B.
>
> For rubber mounts, you can use a slice of tyre, seen this very often for
> aftermarket mods to exhaust systems, had something similar when I had
> a 3" exhaust put through...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



-- 
Sincerely,
Lee M. Lemoine
KB1NQI  - Amateur Radio
http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/
'06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT
'93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!)


From higrafey at gmail.com  Thu Jun 15 09:49:33 2006
From: higrafey at gmail.com (Andy Harvilla)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:49:33 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?
In-Reply-To: <44911a30.367d652f.0130.ffff8943SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
References: <44911a30.367d652f.0130.ffff8943SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85F161CD-2DFC-46C5-9709-0313B0D6215C@gmail.com>

Those are some good exhaust mounting tips.  It's true the exhaust  
systems on these Jeeps aren't set up very well.  The cat and muffler  
are within six inches of each other, there being a support at the cat  
(into the transmission mount) and one behind the muffler on the  
body.  Even so, I'm not sure if it's really a lack of suitable  
mounting that's causing the mufflers to blow out (the motor mounts  
are pretty new, too).  Here's a picture I took this morning showing  
how the metal is degrading.  The silvery band along the center is  
usually first to deform; the arrow shows where it typically develops  
a crack.  The pipe ends never give me trouble, only the metal  
underside of the muffler.  In another month I'll be ready to replace  
this one again (good thing for lifetime warranties!).

http://www.pitt.edu/~ajh32/etc/yjmuffler.jpg

This being an off-road vehicle and all, sloshing through the mud and  
muck isn't good for the exhaust... especially water, which cools down  
the metal relatively quickly.  However, the four-wheeling in my area  
has all but dried up in the past year and I haven't been out in quite  
sometime.

Depending on the situation, I see a wide range of rpm at full pedal.   
Driving up a steep hill, I'd usually be in third gear and turning  
maybe 3000-3500 rpm.  Highway driving at 65 mph is around 2500 rpm in  
fifth, but most often I'm using fourth gear (3000 rpm) because  
there's not enough power.  I've already regeared from 4.10's to  
4.56's (what a difference!).  On-road driving is the only power issue  
I have with the Jeep.  Off-road, there's more than enough juice to  
get around due to all of the gearing.

Again, I've only started having this problem after I installed a  
converter.  The original muffler lasted 65,000 miles with a hollowed  
cat, but I'm on my fourth muffler only 30,000 miles later.  Just  
kinda seems weird.  I'm wondering if it's possible for a cat to heat  
up enough to damage a muffler... or maybe if prolonged high  
temperatures (aggravated by a cat) can kill it.  Assuming I'm  
entering WOT mode, of course.

Andy


From diyefimail at superxtune.com  Thu Jun 15 09:54:13 2006
From: diyefimail at superxtune.com (Tim M)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:54:13 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] running E85
Message-ID: <44917495.2060500@superxtune.com>

Just wanted to review what it takes to run E85.

Vehicle was designed in the mid 90's so O-rings and
such should handle E85.

>From what I have read the amount of fuel needs to be
increased by 27%. This can be done by increasing fuel
pressure, switching to bigger injectors or increasing
the fuel map(s) by 27% if within operating limits of
stock injectors. (lowering rev limit will allow the
stock injectors to work on the vehicle I am looking
at).

Not completely sure what will happen while running
closed loop with a narrow band sensor. Will it toggle
at the correct stoich for E85? 

Spark can be advanced some. I will carefully test with
a knock sensor. For now I will assume stock ignition
will be ok.

Anything else to consider?

Thanks,
Tim



From airhawk at hawkgt.net  Thu Jun 15 10:20:05 2006
From: airhawk at hawkgt.net (Scott C)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:20:05 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?
In-Reply-To: <85F161CD-2DFC-46C5-9709-0313B0D6215C@gmail.com>
References: <44911a30.367d652f.0130.ffff8943SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.gmail.com>
	<85F161CD-2DFC-46C5-9709-0313B0D6215C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200606151120.AA20050000@hawkgt.net>

Well, there *IS* combustion going-on inside the Cat, which I'm assuming 
is *just* ahead of the muffler in the pic, out of the frame. Heat-cycling 
from this, coupled with condensation and corrosive exhaust byproducts 
(which are probably aggravated by extended heavy loading of the engine), 
could quite possibly weaken and fatigue the metal.

Couple that with a (possibly) poorly-routed exhaust system, that places a 
heavy stress on the middle of the muffler - all that could do it.

I don't really have a solution for you, though.

Have you tried a different brand/style of muffler? 

-Scott C.


-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Harvilla <higrafey at gmail.com>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 10:49:33 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?

> Those are some good exhaust mounting tips.  It's true the exhaust  
> systems on these Jeeps aren't set up very well.  The cat and muffler  
> are within six inches of each other, there being a support at the cat  
> (into the transmission mount) and one behind the muffler on the  
> body.  Even so, I'm not sure if it's really a lack of suitable  
> mounting that's causing the mufflers to blow out (the motor mounts  
> are pretty new, too).  Here's a picture I took this morning showing  
> how the metal is degrading.  The silvery band along the center is  
> usually first to deform; the arrow shows where it typically develops  
> a crack.  The pipe ends never give me trouble, only the metal  
> underside of the muffler.  In another month I'll be ready to replace  
> this one again (good thing for lifetime warranties!).
> 
> http://www.pitt.edu/~ajh32/etc/yjmuffler.jpg
> 
> This being an off-road vehicle and all, sloshing through the mud and  
> muck isn't good for the exhaust... especially water, which cools down  
> the metal relatively quickly.  However, the four-wheeling in my area  
> has all but dried up in the past year and I haven't been out in quite  
> sometime.
> 
> Depending on the situation, I see a wide range of rpm at full pedal.   
> Driving up a steep hill, I'd usually be in third gear and turning  
> maybe 3000-3500 rpm.  Highway driving at 65 mph is around 2500 rpm in  
> fifth, but most often I'm using fourth gear (3000 rpm) because  
> there's not enough power.  I've already regeared from 4.10's to  
> 4.56's (what a difference!).  On-road driving is the only power issue  
> I have with the Jeep.  Off-road, there's more than enough juice to  
> get around due to all of the gearing.
> 
> Again, I've only started having this problem after I installed a  
> converter.  The original muffler lasted 65,000 miles with a hollowed  
> cat, but I'm on my fourth muffler only 30,000 miles later.  Just  
> kinda seems weird.  I'm wondering if it's possible for a cat to heat  
> up enough to damage a muffler... or maybe if prolonged high  
> temperatures (aggravated by a cat) can kill it.  Assuming I'm  
> entering WOT mode, of course.
> 
> Andy
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi




From bbowling at earthlink.net  Thu Jun 15 10:39:50 2006
From: bbowling at earthlink.net (Bruce A Bowling)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:39:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] running E85
Message-ID: <5231072.1150385990269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

The narrowband O2 sensor will still operate, indicating excess or reduced o2 content wrt reference o2, and you can determine the stoich operating AF point. 

If you are going to run nothing but E85, always and forever, then adjusting fuel maps and timing will work. If you plan on running different fuel blends (i.e. a tank of E85, then a tank of regular gasoline, etc) then you will need to means to adjust the fuel and spark maps to adapt to the blend. A fuel composition sensor will do this for you.

See http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm  for more information.

- Bruce

-----Original Message-----
>From: Tim M <diyefimail at superxtune.com>
>Sent: Jun 15, 2006 10:54 AM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: [Diy_efi] running E85
>
>Just wanted to review what it takes to run E85.
>
>Vehicle was designed in the mid 90's so O-rings and
>such should handle E85.
>
>>From what I have read the amount of fuel needs to be
>increased by 27%. This can be done by increasing fuel
>pressure, switching to bigger injectors or increasing
>the fuel map(s) by 27% if within operating limits of
>stock injectors. (lowering rev limit will allow the
>stock injectors to work on the vehicle I am looking
>at).
>
>Not completely sure what will happen while running
>closed loop with a narrow band sensor. Will it toggle
>at the correct stoich for E85? 
>
>Spark can be advanced some. I will carefully test with
>a knock sensor. For now I will assume stock ignition
>will be ok.
>
>Anything else to consider?
>
>Thanks,
>Tim
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



From niche at iinet.net.au  Thu Jun 15 12:04:12 2006
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 01:04:12 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Engine Tuning system, "The Australian" Wed June 14, 2006
In-Reply-To: <5231072.1150385990269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <5231072.1150385990269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060616010249.027d7eb0@iinet.net.au>>

Just saw the newspaper with a bit of blurb and found these
web references:-

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/innovations/stories/s1534065.htm

His PhD paper is here:-

http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~serl/_pamvec/PhD_Thesis_AGS_050420.pdf





Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From GuitarCrazyJim at aol.com  Thu Jun 15 14:45:46 2006
From: GuitarCrazyJim at aol.com (GuitarCrazyJim at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:45:46 EDT
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?
Message-ID: <390.4f18e1a.31c312ea@aol.com>

Does this particular brand of muffler have a weep hole in it anywhere, like 
on the back side not shown in the picture?  From the general rust appearance it 
would seem your in a colder climate than here in Phoenix,AZ.  Even here, but 
especially in colder climates, I have seen where mufflers have worn out do to 
rust from the inside. 

Due to heat generated from the exhuast, especially the Cat, the metal does 
heat up.  When you shut the engine down the heat will cause the moisture in the 
ambient air to condensate out and onto the metal.  This is especially true on 
the inside of the exhaust pipes and/or mufflers.  Ever noticed a car in cold 
weather when it first starts up in the morning blow water out the tailpipe? 
That's where that water comes from.

Some muffler manufacturers put a weep hole about 1/16" to 1/8" near the 
bottom of the muffler to allow this condensation (water) to drain out thus slowing 
the rust action.

Just my 2 cents.
Jim


From jogross3 at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 15 19:00:54 2006
From: jogross3 at hotmail.com (John Gross)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 20:00:54 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?
In-Reply-To: <20060615032911.53949.qmail@web36701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY112-DAV132E1FA0376B5CDC12F71183830@phx.gbl>

>From my experience in endurance road racing (I work in the Rolex Series),
extended operation at or near WOT can and will destroy a muffler if this
occurs for long durations.  (with our stuff, it's not uncommon to repack the
muffler every race).  1/4 mile stuff does not heat saturate the exhaust
system enough to do it.  Having a cat in there, if the cal is producing very
rich mixtures at WOT, can increase the EGT downstream of the cat enough to
heat saturate the muffler.  Typically mufflers are more resilient to this,
though it does depend on the proximity of the mufflers to the cat, how rich
the fuel mixture is, and how good your mufflers are.  Crappy mufflers won't
take it well, but good stainless mufflers and the like might.  Better
solution.... re-gear the Jeep so you don't work the engine so hard.  I
assume you didn't do that when the tires and lift kit went on.  If you do,
your engine and trans will last a whole lot longer, you'll get much better
fuel mileage, and the thing will accelerate MUCH better.

John 

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On
Behalf Of Jim Butterfield
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 11:29 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?

Hello Andy, 
  There are a few of us in our club that have cars only for racing... and
that means WOT for `1/4 strip... none of our mufflers wear out... have your
good supports on the exhaust system???
   
  jim
  

Andy Harvilla <higrafey at gmail.com> wrote:
  Hey guys,

I have an unusual "problem" (if you can even call it that) with my 
Jeep Wrangler that I think can be attributed to near-constant WOT 
operation. Every year, no joke, I have to install a new muffler on 
my Jeep because the old one cracks underneath in exactly the same 
spot. Even after only a few hundred miles of use, you can see the 
metal casing begin to warp and swell, presumably from high heat.

It occurred to me that this might be happening because of the way I 
drive the vehicle. The little four-cylinder engine has no power 
(considering the 33-inch tires it's pushing) and I'm nearly always at 
full-throttle just to get the sucker to move... going up hills, 
highway driving, etc. Do you think the computer is enabling WOT mode 
and richening up the mixture, which in turn heats up the catalytic 
converter and slowly melts the muffler? There's always a constant 
rich smell and the tailpipe is usually black. I had to install a cat 
due to inspection reasons (the previous owner hollowed it out), but 
before then, I never had an issue with mufflers blowing out. It 
seems like the converter might be the root of the problem. One of my 
friends owns a Wrangler, drives it the same way, and also replaces 
mufflers annually. We always thought it was "just a Jeep thing"... :-)

Andy
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


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From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Thu Jun 15 23:05:02 2006
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:05:02 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Short life muffler
In-Reply-To: <20060615170004.602DB3B6B7@ns2.nec.com.au>
References: <20060615170004.602DB3B6B7@ns2.nec.com.au>
Message-ID: <44922DEE.4000202@nec.com.au>

Andy,
	On your photo there appears to be some exhaust leakage around the pipe closest 
to camera - white around the entry point.
	The cat will introduce extra heat, and the mounting arrangement may be 
introducing mechanical stress at the elevated temp - have you seen the internal 
construction - is there a baffle connecting the end of the input or output pipe 
to the casing in the area where the split occurs? if so that would suggest 
flexing at elevated temperature - metal softened, more movement...etc
	Have you thought of using a flexible coupling between the CAT and muffler, 
perhaps in conjunction with a stainless steel muffler .... just a thought.

Regards
Bill


From automotivelectronics at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 16 00:33:27 2006
From: automotivelectronics at hotmail.com (Gary Spooner)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 01:33:27 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Engine Tuning system, "The Australian" Wed June 14, 2006
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060616010249.027d7eb0@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <BAY114-F37D89E707FC0ADC38F6255D8830@phx.gbl>

*....Because when you actually drive your vehicle out of a showroom, the 
vehicle has been set up with these static maps. Now these static maps have 
been developed to mimic the conditions that are expected to be placed on the 
car, so the temperature, the speed, the revs per minute, these conditions 
are all built into these static maps. So once you drive out of the showroom, 
your car then starts to deteriorate as you drive.....*

CHOP!

The only automotive computers incapable of making fine adjustments to fuel 
and ignition curves are controls modules which did not come equipped with 
closed loop monitoring and that type of engine controller were mounted in 
cars manufactured in the early 70's. This may be a snow job!

_________________________________________________________________
Auto news & advice ? check out Sympatico / MSN Autos 
http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/Default.aspx



From A6intruder at myo-p.com  Fri Jun 16 01:00:08 2006
From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 02:00:08 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Engine Tuning system, "The Australian" Wed June 14, 2006
In-Reply-To: <BAY114-F37D89E707FC0ADC38F6255D8830@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLECEMCHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>

Quite honestly I haven't seen too many articles of that length that use the
word "actually" so much!  I thought it was my 15 year old using the word
"like"...

Snake oil.  I only read the first link.  Whoever is posing as the
"information" man doesn't have much grasp on what a modern ECU is capable of
doing in the tuning department.  I suspect that most of the
US/European/Asian automotive engineering staffs are quite aware that there
are torque meters available that could work in an automotive drive train.  I
would suspect they use those in some of their testing.  The fact that they
don't use them on production vehicles probably means there is not much to be
gained.  They don't give up much these days when it comes to making a car
efficient and "clean".

I'm not saying someone can't find ways to get better mileage or even cleaner
emissions but based on the first link's discussion, I don't think that group
is going to make huge improvements with a torque meter and another feedback
loop.

I wouldn't mind if they prove me wrong but I doubt they will.

My $.02

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Gary Spooner
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 1:33 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Engine Tuning system, "The Australian" Wed June 14,
2006

*....Because when you actually drive your vehicle out of a showroom, the
vehicle has been set up with these static maps. Now these static maps have
been developed to mimic the conditions that are expected to be placed on the
car, so the temperature, the speed, the revs per minute, these conditions
are all built into these static maps. So once you drive out of the showroom,
your car then starts to deteriorate as you drive.....*

CHOP!

The only automotive computers incapable of making fine adjustments to fuel
and ignition curves are controls modules which did not come equipped with
closed loop monitoring and that type of engine controller were mounted in
cars manufactured in the early 70's. This may be a snow job!

_________________________________________________________________
Auto news & advice - check out Sympatico / MSN Autos
http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/Default.aspx

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



From A6intruder at myo-p.com  Fri Jun 16 01:17:39 2006
From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 02:17:39 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
In-Reply-To: <491kFmX1W5824S13.1150242768@uwdvg013.cms.usa.net>
Message-ID: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEAEMDHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>

Carl,

I spoke with Howard today.  Very helpful.  Problem is he doesn't have the
model injectors I wanted.  Largest thing he has now are 42# injectors.

I'll have to keep looking I guess, look for alternatives.

Thanks,

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of CARL-OTTO RUSTAD
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:53 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors

Dan!

Howard is a nice guy.
My experience is that you can depend on him.
Fast delivery and low cost rebuilt and tested injectors.
He told me once that he was specially aware of
the importance of collecting injectors of similar flow
rate in set.
So there is no chance of creating unbalance that way.

Carl.

------ Original Message ------
Received: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:43:24 AM CEST
From: "Daniel Nicoson" <A6intruder at myo-p.com>
To: "DIY_ EFI" <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Subject: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors

Who has injectors for sale?  I need (8) injectors for my 1994 5.0 turbo
project.

Would like a good used set either 48# or 54#, would consider some of the 52#
Ford CFI injectors, I can make the modifications if the price is right.

I can use high impedance or low impedance (have my own lo-z driver).

Low price is preferred, but of course I need something that will work
correctly.


As an alternative, what retailers do you guys recommend?


Have any of you purchased from these guys below?  Experience?

Owners Howard & Debbie Haack
Motor Man Fuel Injection Supply
6000 W. Weidman Rd.
Weidman, MI. 48893
Phone 989-644-2695      Mobile 989-621-9965

Thanks,


Dan Nicoson


_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi




_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



From niche at iinet.net.au  Fri Jun 16 01:30:33 2006
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:30:33 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Engine Tuning system, "The Australian" Wed June 14, 2006
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060616143031.027da4d0@iinet.net.au>>

Yes I agree - this is something I really expected efi control systems
manufacturers would be working apace to implement under all sorts
of emission and economy guidelines, seems more like a s/w addition to
existing EFI controllers - the article in Australian touts it as a add-on,
hence duplicating a heap of existing hardware, which doesnt strike me
as being all that efficient and cost-effective. Might be able to post the
article in a jpeg, cant find it on the Australian website as yet...

rgds

mike


At 01:33 PM 6/16/06, you wrote:
>*....Because when you actually drive your vehicle out of a showroom, the vehicle has been set up with these static maps. Now these static maps have been developed to mimic the conditions that are expected to be placed on the car, so the temperature, the speed, the revs per minute, these conditions are all built into these static maps. So once you drive out of the showroom, your car then starts to deteriorate as you drive.....*
>
>CHOP!
>
>The only automotive computers incapable of making fine adjustments to fuel and ignition curves are controls modules which did not come equipped with closed loop monitoring and that type of engine controller were mounted in cars manufactured in the early 70's. This may be a snow job!
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Auto news & advice ? check out Sympatico / MSN Autos http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/Default.aspx
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From TheEthereal at gmx.net  Fri Jun 16 05:39:29 2006
From: TheEthereal at gmx.net (TheEthereal at gmx.net)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:39:29 +0200
Subject: [Diy_efi] Engine Tuning system, "The Australian" Wed June 14, 
	2006
In-Reply-To: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLECEMCHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
References: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLECEMCHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
Message-ID: <20060616103929.13530@gmx.net>

IMHO trying to keep vacuum in the manifold as low as possible is the best method for saving fuel. As most cars have a MAP sensor, observing the pressure shouldn't be that difficult. Toyota did that on some of their older cars w/ an red/green indicator light. Still, drivers that stomp on the accelerator even though the light 100 yards in front of them hast just gotten red are wasting morge fuel than any ECU, no matter how good or bad it's designed.

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 02:00:08 -0400
Von: Daniel Nicoson <A6intruder at myo-p.com>
An: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Betreff: RE: [Diy_efi] Engine Tuning system, "The Australian" Wed June 14, 2006

> Quite honestly I haven't seen too many articles of that length that use
> the
> word "actually" so much!  I thought it was my 15 year old using the word
> "like"...
> 
> Snake oil.  I only read the first link.  Whoever is posing as the
> "information" man doesn't have much grasp on what a modern ECU is capable
> of
> doing in the tuning department.  I suspect that most of the
> US/European/Asian automotive engineering staffs are quite aware that there
> are torque meters available that could work in an automotive drive train. 
> I
> would suspect they use those in some of their testing.  The fact that they
> don't use them on production vehicles probably means there is not much to
> be
> gained.  They don't give up much these days when it comes to making a car
> efficient and "clean".
> 
> I'm not saying someone can't find ways to get better mileage or even
> cleaner
> emissions but based on the first link's discussion, I don't think that
> group
> is going to make huge improvements with a torque meter and another
> feedback
> loop.
> 
> I wouldn't mind if they prove me wrong but I doubt they will.
> 
> My $.02
> 
> Dan Nicoson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of Gary Spooner
> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 1:33 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Engine Tuning system, "The Australian" Wed June 14,
> 2006
> 
> *....Because when you actually drive your vehicle out of a showroom, the
> vehicle has been set up with these static maps. Now these static maps have
> been developed to mimic the conditions that are expected to be placed on
> the
> car, so the temperature, the speed, the revs per minute, these conditions
> are all built into these static maps. So once you drive out of the
> showroom,
> your car then starts to deteriorate as you drive.....*
> 
> CHOP!
> 
> The only automotive computers incapable of making fine adjustments to fuel
> and ignition curves are controls modules which did not come equipped with
> closed loop monitoring and that type of engine controller were mounted in
> cars manufactured in the early 70's. This may be a snow job!
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Auto news & advice - check out Sympatico / MSN Autos
> http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/Default.aspx
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

-- 


"Feel free" ? 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat ...
Jetzt GMX TopMail testen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail


From pwpanas at comcast.net  Fri Jun 16 11:43:35 2006
From: pwpanas at comcast.net (Phil Panas)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:43:35 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
In-Reply-To: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEAEMDHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c69164$037da1c0$6601a8c0@Cyratek>

This is one possible source:
http://precisionturbo.net/fuelsys-display.php?company_id=101795&category_id=
3057

Fwiw, I regularly purchase from them.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On
Behalf Of Daniel Nicoson
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 2:18 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors

Carl,

I spoke with Howard today.  Very helpful.  Problem is he doesn't have the
model injectors I wanted.  Largest thing he has now are 42# injectors.

I'll have to keep looking I guess, look for alternatives.

Thanks,

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of CARL-OTTO RUSTAD
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:53 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors

Dan!

Howard is a nice guy.
My experience is that you can depend on him.
Fast delivery and low cost rebuilt and tested injectors.
He told me once that he was specially aware of the importance of collecting
injectors of similar flow rate in set.
So there is no chance of creating unbalance that way.

Carl.

------ Original Message ------
Received: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:43:24 AM CEST
From: "Daniel Nicoson" <A6intruder at myo-p.com>
To: "DIY_ EFI" <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Subject: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors

Who has injectors for sale?  I need (8) injectors for my 1994 5.0 turbo
project.

Would like a good used set either 48# or 54#, would consider some of the 52#
Ford CFI injectors, I can make the modifications if the price is right.

I can use high impedance or low impedance (have my own lo-z driver).

Low price is preferred, but of course I need something that will work
correctly.


As an alternative, what retailers do you guys recommend?

Have any of you purchased from these guys below?  Experience?

Owners Howard & Debbie Haack
Motor Man Fuel Injection Supply
6000 W. Weidman Rd.
Weidman, MI. 48893
Phone 989-644-2695      Mobile 989-621-9965

Thanks,


Dan Nicoson



From keithvarin at gmail.com  Sat Jun 17 01:38:33 2006
From: keithvarin at gmail.com (Keith Varin)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 02:38:33 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
In-Reply-To: <003c01c69164$037da1c0$6601a8c0@Cyratek>
References: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEAEMDHGAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
	<003c01c69164$037da1c0$6601a8c0@Cyratek>
Message-ID: <d6cb3a1a0606162338m3736fcd7i9dacdd11eec35d9@mail.gmail.com>

Try these guys.
www.promustangperformance.com
Mike Clark
1-877-718-4603

On 6/16/06, Phil Panas <pwpanas at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> This is one possible source:
>
> http://precisionturbo.net/fuelsys-display.php?company_id=101795&category_id=
> 3057
>
> Fwiw, I regularly purchase from them.
>
> Phil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On
> Behalf Of Daniel Nicoson
> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 2:18 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
>
> Carl,
>
> I spoke with Howard today.  Very helpful.  Problem is he doesn't have the
> model injectors I wanted.  Largest thing he has now are 42# injectors.
>
> I'll have to keep looking I guess, look for alternatives.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan Nicoson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of CARL-OTTO RUSTAD
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:53 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
>
> Dan!
>
> Howard is a nice guy.
> My experience is that you can depend on him.
> Fast delivery and low cost rebuilt and tested injectors.
> He told me once that he was specially aware of the importance of
> collecting
> injectors of similar flow rate in set.
> So there is no chance of creating unbalance that way.
>
> Carl.
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:43:24 AM CEST
> From: "Daniel Nicoson" <A6intruder at myo-p.com>
> To: "DIY_ EFI" <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
>
> Who has injectors for sale?  I need (8) injectors for my 1994 5.0 turbo
> project.
>
> Would like a good used set either 48# or 54#, would consider some of the
> 52#
> Ford CFI injectors, I can make the modifications if the price is right.
>
> I can use high impedance or low impedance (have my own lo-z driver).
>
> Low price is preferred, but of course I need something that will work
> correctly.
>
>
> As an alternative, what retailers do you guys recommend?
>
> Have any of you purchased from these guys below?  Experience?
>
> Owners Howard & Debbie Haack
> Motor Man Fuel Injection Supply
> 6000 W. Weidman Rd.
> Weidman, MI. 48893
> Phone 989-644-2695      Mobile 989-621-9965
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Dan Nicoson
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



-- 
Keith Varin


From pwpanas at comcast.net  Sat Jun 17 19:40:09 2006
From: pwpanas at comcast.net (Phil Panas)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 20:40:09 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
In-Reply-To: <d6cb3a1a0606162338m3736fcd7i9dacdd11eec35d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002101c6926f$c3102c40$6601a8c0@Cyratek>

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like promustangperformance only
sells 19# to 36# injectors:
http://www.promustangperformance.com/engine-components-fuel-injectors.html
...these may be too small, since Dan is looking for "48# or 54#" injectors.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On
Behalf Of Keith Varin
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 2:39 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors

Try these guys.
www.promustangperformance.com
Mike Clark
1-877-718-4603

On 6/16/06, Phil Panas <pwpanas at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> This is one possible source:
>
> http://precisionturbo.net/fuelsys-display.php?company_id=101795&catego
> ry_id=
> 3057
>
> Fwiw, I regularly purchase from them.
>
> Phil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] 
> On Behalf Of Daniel Nicoson
> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 2:18 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
>
> Carl,
>
> I spoke with Howard today.  Very helpful.  Problem is he doesn't have 
> the model injectors I wanted.  Largest thing he has now are 42# injectors.
>
> I'll have to keep looking I guess, look for alternatives.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan Nicoson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of CARL-OTTO RUSTAD
> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:53 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
>
> Dan!
>
> Howard is a nice guy.
> My experience is that you can depend on him.
> Fast delivery and low cost rebuilt and tested injectors.
> He told me once that he was specially aware of the importance of 
> collecting injectors of similar flow rate in set.
> So there is no chance of creating unbalance that way.
>
> Carl.
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:43:24 AM CEST
> From: "Daniel Nicoson" <A6intruder at myo-p.com>
> To: "DIY_ EFI" <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
>
> Who has injectors for sale?  I need (8) injectors for my 1994 5.0 
> turbo project.
>
> Would like a good used set either 48# or 54#, would consider some of 
> the 52# Ford CFI injectors, I can make the modifications if the price 
> is right.
>
> I can use high impedance or low impedance (have my own lo-z driver).
>
> Low price is preferred, but of course I need something that will work 
> correctly.
>
>
> As an alternative, what retailers do you guys recommend?
>
> Have any of you purchased from these guys below?  Experience?
>
> Owners Howard & Debbie Haack
> Motor Man Fuel Injection Supply
> 6000 W. Weidman Rd.
> Weidman, MI. 48893
> Phone 989-644-2695      Mobile 989-621-9965
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Dan Nicoson
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



--
Keith Varin
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



From krawczuk at dodo.com.au  Sat Jun 17 20:55:51 2006
From: krawczuk at dodo.com.au (mark krawczuk)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 11:25:51 +0930
Subject: [Diy_efi] 355 stroker bin ?
Message-ID: <009401c6927a$54468150$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>

hi, i cant remember who i got it of , but some one on the list  email me a .bin for a 355 stroker some time ago, but i lost it .
whoever it was could u please email itto me  ?

krawczuk at dodo.com.au


mark k

From krawczuk at dodo.com.au  Sat Jun 17 21:52:12 2006
From: krawczuk at dodo.com.au (mark krawczuk)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:22:12 +0930
Subject: [Diy_efi] Fw: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
Message-ID: <02b101c69282$339081b0$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>


>
> hi, that was for a holden v8 efi stroker ......................:-O
>
>
> mark k
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "mark krawczuk" <krawczuk at dodo.com.au>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 11:25 AM
> Subject: [Diy_efi] 355 stroker bin ?
>
>
> hi, i cant remember who i got it of , but some one on the list  email me a
> .bin for a 355 stroker some time ago, but i lost it .
> whoever it was could u please email itto me  ?
>
> krawczuk at dodo.com.au
>
>
> mark k
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 



From justin at jacomms.com  Sun Jun 18 05:32:01 2006
From: justin at jacomms.com (Justin Albury)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:32:01 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] 355 stroker bin ?
In-Reply-To: <009401c6927a$54468150$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>
References: <009401c6927a$54468150$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>
Message-ID: <44952BA1.6040003@jacomms.com>

hey mark

was it to go into a 808 or a 082??

justin

mark krawczuk wrote:
> hi, i cant remember who i got it of , but some one on the list  email me a .bin for a 355 stroker some time ago, but i lost it .
> whoever it was could u please email itto me  ?
>
> krawczuk at dodo.com.au
>
>
> mark k
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>   


From krawczuk at dodo.com.au  Sun Jun 18 07:30:35 2006
From: krawczuk at dodo.com.au (mark krawczuk)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 22:00:35 +0930
Subject: [Diy_efi] 355 stroker bin ?
References: <009401c6927a$54468150$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>
	<44952BA1.6040003@jacomms.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c692d3$0033b020$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>

hi, it was for a   `808.
thnaks,
mark k




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Albury" <justin at jacomms.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 355 stroker bin ?


> hey mark
>
> was it to go into a 808 or a 082??
>
> justin
>
> mark krawczuk wrote:
>> hi, i cant remember who i got it of , but some one on the list  email me 
>> a .bin for a 355 stroker some time ago, but i lost it .
>> whoever it was could u please email itto me  ?
>>
>> krawczuk at dodo.com.au
>>
>>
>> mark k
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi 



From justin at jacomms.com  Sun Jun 18 08:39:50 2006
From: justin at jacomms.com (Justin Albury)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 23:39:50 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] 355 stroker bin ?
In-Reply-To: <001f01c692d3$0033b020$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>
References: <009401c6927a$54468150$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>	<44952BA1.6040003@jacomms.com>
	<001f01c692d3$0033b020$6baef0dc@marka7e6m8swbp>
Message-ID: <449557A6.505@jacomms.com>

Try this....

Justin

mark krawczuk wrote:
> hi, it was for a   `808.
> thnaks,
> mark k
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Albury" <justin at jacomms.com>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 8:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 355 stroker bin ?
>
>
>> hey mark
>>
>> was it to go into a 808 or a 082??
>>
>> justin
>>
>> mark krawczuk wrote:
>>> hi, i cant remember who i got it of , but some one on the list  
>>> email me a .bin for a 355 stroker some time ago, but i lost it .
>>> whoever it was could u please email itto me  ?
>>>
>>> krawczuk at dodo.com.au
>>>
>>>
>>> mark k
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi

From diyefimail at superxtune.com  Sun Jun 18 10:51:59 2006
From: diyefimail at superxtune.com (Tim M)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 11:51:59 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 2001 Jetta GLS 2.0 L
Message-ID: <4495769F.9040209@superxtune.com>

A friend of mine just bought 2001 Jetta GLS 2.0 L gas car. Idle is 
rough, idle RPM is low (approx. 600 RPM) and ECM stall sensor function 
is preventing AC compressor clutch from engaging below 2500 RPM. 
Troubleshooting suggests that ?throttle basic settings? and ?automatic 
transmission basic settings? need to be re-learned thru the OBD II 
diagnostic port.

Can anyone recommend a good, 100% ?VAG 1551 compliant? code reader / 
scanner that can be used to reprogram ?throttle basic settings? and 
?auto trans basic settings? on a 2001 Jetta GLS 2.0L?

Thanks
Tim


From leroy at sunflower.com  Sun Jun 18 12:37:27 2006
From: leroy at sunflower.com (Jim Sloan)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 12:37:27 -0500
Subject: [SPAMPROB:56%] [Diy_efi] 2001 Jetta GLS 2.0 L
In-Reply-To: <4495769F.9040209@superxtune.com>
Message-ID: <000001c692fd$de21b510$6501a8c0@james0uw35t2hd>

Vag-com

http://www.ross-tech.com/

Jim 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Tim M
> Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 10:52 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [SPAMPROB:56%] [Diy_efi] 2001 Jetta GLS 2.0 L
> 
> A friend of mine just bought 2001 Jetta GLS 2.0 L gas car. 
> Idle is rough, idle RPM is low (approx. 600 RPM) and ECM 
> stall sensor function is preventing AC compressor clutch from 
> engaging below 2500 RPM. 
> Troubleshooting suggests that "throttle basic settings" and 
> "automatic transmission basic settings" need to be re-learned 
> thru the OBD II diagnostic port.
> 
> Can anyone recommend a good, 100% "VAG 1551 compliant" code 
> reader / scanner that can be used to reprogram "throttle 
> basic settings" and "auto trans basic settings" on a 2001 
> Jetta GLS 2.0L?
> 
> Thanks
> Tim
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 




From bobqzzi at cox.net  Sun Jun 18 15:35:26 2006
From: bobqzzi at cox.net (Bobqzzi)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 16:35:26 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 2001 Jetta GLS 2.0 L
In-Reply-To: <4495769F.9040209@superxtune.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20060618163518.00b68580@pop.east.cox.net>

http://www.ross-tech.com/


At 11:51 AM 6/18/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>A friend of mine just bought 2001 Jetta GLS 2.0 L gas car. Idle is rough, 
>idle RPM is low (approx. 600 RPM) and ECM stall sensor function is 
>preventing AC compressor clutch from engaging below 2500 RPM. 
>Troubleshooting suggests that "throttle basic settings" and "automatic 
>transmission basic settings" need to be re-learned thru the OBD II 
>diagnostic port.
>
>Can anyone recommend a good, 100% "VAG 1551 compliant" code reader / 
>scanner that can be used to reprogram "throttle basic settings" and "auto 
>trans basic settings" on a 2001 Jetta GLS 2.0L?
>
>Thanks
>Tim
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



From dzorde at erggroup.com  Sun Jun 18 19:08:18 2006
From: dzorde at erggroup.com (Dan Zorde)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 08:08:18 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
In-Reply-To: <OF195F51A0.49A9714B-ON48257190.005D75A6@LocalDomain>
Message-ID: <OF74F2A042.6A1CEBC2-ON48257192.000057BA-48257192.0000E6FE@erggroup.com>

Have you tried (if he is still around), used to be on the list.

Doug Garriott
The Injector Wizard
LTS
888-809-FUEL

I got a set of rebuilt and matched 36# injectors from him about 4 years
ago (still going strong today).

Cheers Dan



> I'll have to keep looking I guess, look for alternatives.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan Nicoson




From higrafey at gmail.com  Sun Jun 18 22:34:22 2006
From: higrafey at gmail.com (Andy Harvilla)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 23:34:22 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Can constant WOT operation destroy a muffler?
Message-ID: <6B2EE3A2-9568-4554-8F14-A391C7996203@gmail.com>

I've been out for a few days working on my Camaro... trying to get a  
serpentine belt conversion going and doing a bit of painting.  Fun  
stuff.

I haven't seen a weep hole in the muffler -- they've all been sealed  
so far.  I didn't even think about the inherent condensation that  
forms as the exhaust cools down.  The cold winters here in Pittsburgh  
aren't easy on anything automotive-related, but I wonder if the  
surface rust is coming from something other than the climate.  The  
8000-mile-old muffler on my '98 Jeep Cherokee shows absolutely no  
rust and it's seen as much use as the Wrangler (plus a winter).  THAT  
one needs replaced (I just can't win!) but it appears to be related  
to the mounting, as there's a clear leak at the pipe inlet on the  
front of the muffler.  On the Wrangler, I've tried one other brand  
and it's failed, too.  My friend has used a few as well, finally  
settling on an expensive ($150) model that's been holding up.  Maybe  
it has a thicker wall or something.

When I replace this muffler I'll talk to the auto parts store and see  
if my free replacement is valid if I cut the old one open.  I'm  
curious to see how the inside looks and maybe find a reason for the  
short life.  Thanks for the help and suggestions.  I'll keep posted  
as to what I find.

Andy


From glogovacs at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jun 19 00:52:42 2006
From: glogovacs at yahoo.co.uk (Stevan Glogovac)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:52:42 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Reversing EPROM decryption board
Message-ID: <20060619055242.44179.qmail@web25303.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

I've built the data bus spy. NVRAM is DS1230Y, datasheet available at: http://pdfserv.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/DS1230AB-DS1230Y.pdf. 
   
  The results are weird, so to say. If I test it with ordinary EPROM containing my program (PEELs bypassed, so CPU reads the EPROM directly), NVRAM is getting filled correctly... just like it is supposed to do.
   
  Once I use encrypted EPROM and put the PEELs back in picture, it doesn't work. The ECU won't even boot, so it must be reading some crap of data. Not to mention that the contents of NVRAM is just proving that... 
   
  What the hack is going on? 
   
  Of course, I checked the spy board many times, it was all perfect.. and it runs with EPROM, so there should not be a problem there...
   
  Ideas?
   
  Regards,
  NG
   
  ************************************************************************************************
  You will need to play with the NVRAM's /CS. If there is a separate /RD line,
tie that high and try tying /CS low (and pull it high before shutting down to
prevent spuriuous writes). If that doesn't work, you can try tying /CS and /W
together but it would be best to poke around looking for another signal that
would correspond to the EPROM /CS, maybe one of the PEEL inputs.
It's usually better to have /WR framed by all the other signals.
If the NVRAM has one RD/WR line rather than separate /RD /WR lines,
tie RD/WR low and tie /CS to /OE.
If the NVRAM has any /OE input, tie that high to prevent bus contentions.
These are general rules-of-thumb. Let me know your NVRAM part number and
an URL for the data sheet, if you have that.

-- Don

 		
---------------------------------
 All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine

From A6intruder at myo-p.com  Mon Jun 19 20:16:59 2006
From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 21:16:59 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors
In-Reply-To: <OF74F2A042.6A1CEBC2-ON48257192.000057BA-48257192.0000E6FE@erggroup.com>
Message-ID: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLECEAOHHAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>

Doug,

Thanks for the lead but I snagged a set off Ebay this past weekend.

Take care,

Dan Nicoson

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Dan Zorde
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 8:08 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Want to buy 48# to 54# Injectors

Have you tried (if he is still around), used to be on the list.

Doug Garriott
The Injector Wizard
LTS
888-809-FUEL

I got a set of rebuilt and matched 36# injectors from him about 4 years
ago (still going strong today).

Cheers Dan



> I'll have to keep looking I guess, look for alternatives.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan Nicoson


_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi



From scott_o_matic at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 27 12:33:09 2006
From: scott_o_matic at yahoo.com (Scott Scott)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:33:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation 
Message-ID: <20060627173309.84314.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto a
1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl).  It runs well, idles
smoothly, but I have a couple of issues.  

1?It has some hesitation on acceleration.  Not when I
rev it in the garage, but when its in gear.  Timing is
currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I?m
thinking of adding a little more advance to it.  Any
other ideas?  It actually stalls out sometimes when I
try to make a fast getaway.  

2?I put the ECU under the dash.  I reached in and put
my hand on the box  after I had been driving a while,
and it was VERY hot to the touch.  I almost couldn?t
hold on to it.  Is this a normal operating condition
of the GM ECU?   

Any tips are appreciated! 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From niche at iinet.net.au  Tue Jun 27 14:20:25 2006
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:20:25 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation 
In-Reply-To: <20060627173309.84314.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060627173309.84314.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060628031739.02b09150@iinet.net.au>>

Any transient mixture enrichment on rate of change of throttle position ?

Even the oldie hitachi/bosch ecu reads rate of change of throttle
position and intersperses extra injection pulses to act like the
old accelerator pump of the carbie days, seems like you have
that issue from your description as you report its more than
noticable when on load - that is when its most apparent...

rgds

Mike



At 01:33 AM 6/28/06, you wrote:
>I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto a
>1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl).  It runs well, idles
>smoothly, but I have a couple of issues.  
>
>1?It has some hesitation on acceleration.  Not when I
>rev it in the garage, but when its in gear.  Timing is
>currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I?m
>thinking of adding a little more advance to it.  Any
>other ideas?  It actually stalls out sometimes when I
>try to make a fast getaway.  
>
>2?I put the ECU under the dash.  I reached in and put
>my hand on the box  after I had been driving a while,
>and it was VERY hot to the touch.  I almost couldn?t
>hold on to it.  Is this a normal operating condition
>of the GM ECU?   
>
>Any tips are appreciated! 
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
>http://mail.yahoo.com 
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From Anagnostou at cox.net  Tue Jun 27 18:23:53 2006
From: Anagnostou at cox.net (Royce Anagnostou)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:23:53 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation
In-Reply-To: <20060627173309.84314.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060627173309.84314.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <44A1BE09.5030801@cox.net>

yes it's supposed to be hot. It's electronics in a sealed metal box. The 
ECU case is designed to be a heat sink so it will get quite hot, while 
in operation.

Scott Scott wrote:
> I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto a
> 1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl).  It runs well, idles
> smoothly, but I have a couple of issues.  
>
> 1?It has some hesitation on acceleration.  Not when I
> rev it in the garage, but when its in gear.  Timing is
> currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I?m
> thinking of adding a little more advance to it.  Any
> other ideas?  It actually stalls out sometimes when I
> try to make a fast getaway.  
>
> 2?I put the ECU under the dash.  I reached in and put
> my hand on the box  after I had been driving a while,
> and it was VERY hot to the touch.  I almost couldn?t
> hold on to it.  Is this a normal operating condition
> of the GM ECU?   
>
> Any tips are appreciated! 
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>   


From scott_o_matic at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 27 22:07:53 2006
From: scott_o_matic at yahoo.com (Scott Scott)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:07:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation 
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060628031739.02b09150@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <20060628030753.33129.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the reply.  So the EFI system creates its
own virtual accelerator pump of sorts? Makes sense, a
little extra fuel to compensate for the higher demand.
 

What do I do to diagnose this and correct it?

Thanks


--- Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:

> Any transient mixture enrichment on rate of change
> of throttle position ?
> 
> Even the oldie hitachi/bosch ecu reads rate of
> change of throttle
> position and intersperses extra injection pulses to
> act like the
> old accelerator pump of the carbie days, seems like
> you have
> that issue from your description as you report its
> more than
> noticable when on load - that is when its most
> apparent...
> 
> rgds
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> At 01:33 AM 6/28/06, you wrote:
> >I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto a
> >1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl).  It runs well,
> idles
> >smoothly, but I have a couple of issues.  
> >
> >1?It has some hesitation on acceleration.  Not when
> I
> >rev it in the garage, but when its in gear.  Timing
> is
> >currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I?m
> >thinking of adding a little more advance to it. 
> Any
> >other ideas?  It actually stalls out sometimes when
> I
> >try to make a fast getaway.  
> >
> >2?I put the ECU under the dash.  I reached in and
> put
> >my hand on the box  after I had been driving a
> while,
> >and it was VERY hot to the touch.  I almost
> couldn?t
> >hold on to it.  Is this a normal operating
> condition
> >of the GM ECU?   
> >
> >Any tips are appreciated! 
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> >http://mail.yahoo.com 
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
> Regards from
> 
> 
> Mike
> Perth, Western Australia
> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle
> sidecars
> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From dgilbert78 at juno.com  Tue Jun 27 22:53:51 2006
From: dgilbert78 at juno.com (dgilbert78 at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:53:51 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation
Message-ID: <20060627.235352.-67801.7.dgilbert78@juno.com>

Hello: If you have a MAP system make absolutely sure that the vacuum to
the MAP is on time, not delayed. Lots of times on GM TBI units (possibly
others) the vacuum port to the MAP becomes plugged with carbon to the
point that the orface is so small that the vacuum is delayed to the MAP,
this will without a doubt cause hessitation on quick throttle opening. On
slow no load throttle opening the vacuum is fast enough to run the MAP
and the problem is not present. There is no test for this unless the MAP
port is completely plugged, then it is obvious, because you will get no
MAP change. I had to pull the TPI and rod the port and choke cleaner it.
After that no more hesitation, Probably any problem with the vacuum hose
to the MAP would cause a similiar problem,
good luck
Darryl...
On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Scott Scott
<scott_o_matic at yahoo.com> writes:
> Thanks for the reply.  So the EFI system creates its
> own virtual accelerator pump of sorts? Makes sense, a
> little extra fuel to compensate for the higher demand.
>  
> 
> What do I do to diagnose this and correct it?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> --- Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
> 
> > Any transient mixture enrichment on rate of change
> > of throttle position ?
> > 
> > Even the oldie hitachi/bosch ecu reads rate of
> > change of throttle
> > position and intersperses extra injection pulses to
> > act like the
> > old accelerator pump of the carbie days, seems like
> > you have
> > that issue from your description as you report its
> > more than
> > noticable when on load - that is when its most
> > apparent...
> > 
> > rgds
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > At 01:33 AM 6/28/06, you wrote:
> > >I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto a
> > >1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl).  It runs well,
> > idles
> > >smoothly, but I have a couple of issues.  
> > >
> > >1?It has some hesitation on acceleration.  Not when
> > I
> > >rev it in the garage, but when its in gear.  Timing
> > is
> > >currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I?m
> > >thinking of adding a little more advance to it. 
> > Any
> > >other ideas?  It actually stalls out sometimes when
> > I
> > >try to make a fast getaway.  
> > >
> > >2?I put the ECU under the dash.  I reached in and
> > put
> > >my hand on the box  after I had been driving a
> > while,
> > >and it was VERY hot to the touch.  I almost
> > couldn?t
> > >hold on to it.  Is this a normal operating
> > condition
> > >of the GM ECU?   
> > >
> > >Any tips are appreciated! 
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around 
> > >http://mail.yahoo.com 
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Diy_efi mailing list
> > >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > 
> > 
> > Regards from
> > 
> > 
> > Mike
> > Perth, Western Australia
> > VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> > Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle
> > sidecars
> > http://niche.iinet.net.au
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 


From niche at iinet.net.au  Wed Jun 28 07:22:46 2006
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:22:46 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation 
In-Reply-To: <20060628030753.33129.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060628031739.02b09150@iinet.net.au>
	<20060628030753.33129.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060628200805.027b3eb0@iinet.net.au>>

At 11:07 AM 6/28/06, you wrote:
>Thanks for the reply.  So the EFI system creates its
>own virtual accelerator pump of sorts? Makes sense, a
>little extra fuel to compensate for the higher demand.

The EFI for the Hitachi/Bosch ECU with AFM (VL Commodore) uses a throttle
position sensor which has a simple square wave type etching
in a circuit board with a wiper, so each time the throttle sensor
is used it traverses this and produces a pulse, so the faster you
press it the more intermediate pulses you get interspersed with
the normal injection pulses. This is necessary because the AFM
is often some distance upstream from the throttle valve and therefore
the inlet gets more flow a fraction of a second before the AFM "knows" about
it and the consequent delay through the ECU processing cycle...

iirc the pulses go to the CPU's interrupt line so the firmware can
decide to accept or reject the pulses or simply to extend the
existing pulses if the injector opening happens to coincide
with a throttle position 'change request' or map them some other way etc.

>What do I do to diagnose this and correct it?

As suggested in another post, for a MAP system the line to the
sensor can affect operation. However on further reflection, many earlier
carburetor's had an extra accelerator pump, I recall the Ford Escort 1972
had a sizable pump with a surprising amount of squirt even though the
distance from the carby to the inlet was short and it was a progressive
dual butterfly design, so I am wondering that if a MAP based EFI system with the
implication it would automatically provide means for ECU to inject fuel on sudden increase
of pressure is going to be sufficient as a carby based system would operate
similarly to MAP (yes/no ?).  If it was me and I had a MAP based unit then if I had
a hesitation on sudden throttle opening then I would use either an extra
injector driving of a differential off a throttle position sensor - assuming of course
the MAP position is correct and there are no orifice issues in its sensing,

Rgds

Mike



>Thanks
>
>
>--- Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Any transient mixture enrichment on rate of change
>> of throttle position ?
>> 
>> Even the oldie hitachi/bosch ecu reads rate of
>> change of throttle
>> position and intersperses extra injection pulses to
>> act like the
>> old accelerator pump of the carbie days, seems like
>> you have
>> that issue from your description as you report its
>> more than
>> noticable when on load - that is when its most
>> apparent...
>> 
>> rgds
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> At 01:33 AM 6/28/06, you wrote:
>> >I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto a
>> >1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl).  It runs well,
>> idles
>> >smoothly, but I have a couple of issues.  
>> >
>> >1?It has some hesitation on acceleration.  Not when
>> I
>> >rev it in the garage, but when its in gear.  Timing
>> is
>> >currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I?m
>> >thinking of adding a little more advance to it. 
>> Any
>> >other ideas?  It actually stalls out sometimes when
>> I
>> >try to make a fast getaway.  
>> >
>> >2?I put the ECU under the dash.  I reached in and
>> put
>> >my hand on the box  after I had been driving a
>> while,
>> >and it was VERY hot to the touch.  I almost
>> couldn?t
>> >hold on to it.  Is this a normal operating
>> condition
>> >of the GM ECU?   
>> >
>> >Any tips are appreciated! 
>> >
>> >
>> >__________________________________________________
>> >Do You Yahoo!?
>> >Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
>> protection around 
>> >http://mail.yahoo.com 
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> 
>> 
>> Regards from
>> 
>> 
>> Mike
>> Perth, Western Australia
>> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
>> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle
>> sidecars
>> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> 
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
>http://mail.yahoo.com 
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From llemoine at gmail.com  Wed Jun 28 08:23:29 2006
From: llemoine at gmail.com (Lee M. Lemoine)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:23:29 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060628200805.027b3eb0@iinet.net.au>
References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060628031739.02b09150@iinet.net.au>
	<20060628030753.33129.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.0.16.0.20060628200805.027b3eb0@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <bedc2dea0606280623m4a306d40w376a51dbd9d9d958@mail.gmail.com>

Just a few quick thoughts...  what fuel pressure are you regulated at and
what are you using for a pump.   I notice you say the ECM gets hot, but that
the car runs... i'm wondering if TBI is a low pressure system (i thought it
was lower than PFI)  and thinking that maybe part of the problem is
overenrichment, being that when you add more throttle (lose vaccum) the fuel
pressure rises (function of the FPR) and you overenrich because of the
height of the fuel curve.   Just a thought... that maybe excessive
backpressure on the TPI injector may cause the injector drives to get hot.

not familiar with TBI, just a thought though.  and this is a place for
exchanging thoughts ;)

best regards!

-- Lee

On 6/28/06, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> At 11:07 AM 6/28/06, you wrote:
> >Thanks for the reply.  So the EFI system creates its
> >own virtual accelerator pump of sorts? Makes sense, a
> >little extra fuel to compensate for the higher demand.
>
> The EFI for the Hitachi/Bosch ECU with AFM (VL Commodore) uses a throttle
> position sensor which has a simple square wave type etching
> in a circuit board with a wiper, so each time the throttle sensor
> is used it traverses this and produces a pulse, so the faster you
> press it the more intermediate pulses you get interspersed with
> the normal injection pulses. This is necessary because the AFM
> is often some distance upstream from the throttle valve and therefore
> the inlet gets more flow a fraction of a second before the AFM "knows"
> about
> it and the consequent delay through the ECU processing cycle...
>
> iirc the pulses go to the CPU's interrupt line so the firmware can
> decide to accept or reject the pulses or simply to extend the
> existing pulses if the injector opening happens to coincide
> with a throttle position 'change request' or map them some other way etc.
>
> >What do I do to diagnose this and correct it?
>
> As suggested in another post, for a MAP system the line to the
> sensor can affect operation. However on further reflection, many earlier
> carburetor's had an extra accelerator pump, I recall the Ford Escort 1972
> had a sizable pump with a surprising amount of squirt even though the
> distance from the carby to the inlet was short and it was a progressive
> dual butterfly design, so I am wondering that if a MAP based EFI system
> with the
> implication it would automatically provide means for ECU to inject fuel on
> sudden increase
> of pressure is going to be sufficient as a carby based system would
> operate
> similarly to MAP (yes/no ?).  If it was me and I had a MAP based unit then
> if I had
> a hesitation on sudden throttle opening then I would use either an extra
> injector driving of a differential off a throttle position sensor -
> assuming of course
> the MAP position is correct and there are no orifice issues in its
> sensing,
>
> Rgds
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> >Thanks
> >
> >
> >--- Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
> >
> >> Any transient mixture enrichment on rate of change
> >> of throttle position ?
> >>
> >> Even the oldie hitachi/bosch ecu reads rate of
> >> change of throttle
> >> position and intersperses extra injection pulses to
> >> act like the
> >> old accelerator pump of the carbie days, seems like
> >> you have
> >> that issue from your description as you report its
> >> more than
> >> noticable when on load - that is when its most
> >> apparent...
> >>
> >> rgds
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> At 01:33 AM 6/28/06, you wrote:
> >> >I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto a
> >> >1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl).  It runs well,
> >> idles
> >> >smoothly, but I have a couple of issues.
> >> >
> >> >1?It has some hesitation on acceleration.  Not when
> >> I
> >> >rev it in the garage, but when its in gear.  Timing
> >> is
> >> >currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I'm
> >> >thinking of adding a little more advance to it.
> >> Any
> >> >other ideas?  It actually stalls out sometimes when
> >> I
> >> >try to make a fast getaway.
> >> >
> >> >2?I put the ECU under the dash.  I reached in and
> >> put
> >> >my hand on the box  after I had been driving a
> >> while,
> >> >and it was VERY hot to the touch.  I almost
> >> couldn't
> >> >hold on to it.  Is this a normal operating
> >> condition
> >> >of the GM ECU?
> >> >
> >> >Any tips are appreciated!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >__________________________________________________
> >> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >> >Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> >> protection around
> >> >http://mail.yahoo.com
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards from
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike
> >> Perth, Western Australia
> >> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> >> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle
> >> sidecars
> >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >http://mail.yahoo.com
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
> Regards from
>
>
> Mike
> Perth, Western Australia
> VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



-- 
Sincerely,
Lee M. Lemoine
KB1NQI  - Amateur Radio
http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/
'06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT
'93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!)


From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 28 08:59:12 2006
From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 06:59:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation
In-Reply-To: <20060627.235352.-67801.7.dgilbert78@juno.com>
Message-ID: <20060628135912.22798.qmail@web36705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Ditto.... Ditto.... back in the day when I worked at Firestone, we'd see little chevys come in with the 2.0L engines and they had an elbow tube from map to the manifold... and the elbow would either crack out and leak vacuum or plug up with carbon and such...
   
  

dgilbert78 at juno.com wrote:
  Hello: If you have a MAP system make absolutely sure that the vacuum to
the MAP is on time, not delayed. Lots of times on GM TBI units (possibly
others) the vacuum port to the MAP becomes plugged with carbon to the
point that the orface is so small that the vacuum is delayed to the MAP,
this will without a doubt cause hessitation on quick throttle opening. On
slow no load throttle opening the vacuum is fast enough to run the MAP
and the problem is not present. There is no test for this unless the MAP
port is completely plugged, then it is obvious, because you will get no
MAP change. I had to pull the TPI and rod the port and choke cleaner it.
After that no more hesitation, Probably any problem with the vacuum hose
to the MAP would cause a similiar problem,
good luck
Darryl...
On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Scott Scott
writes:
> Thanks for the reply. So the EFI system creates its
> own virtual accelerator pump of sorts? Makes sense, a
> little extra fuel to compensate for the higher demand.
> 
> 
> What do I do to diagnose this and correct it?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> --- Mike wrote:
> 
> > Any transient mixture enrichment on rate of change
> > of throttle position ?
> > 
> > Even the oldie hitachi/bosch ecu reads rate of
> > change of throttle
> > position and intersperses extra injection pulses to
> > act like the
> > old accelerator pump of the carbie days, seems like
> > you have
> > that issue from your description as you report its
> > more than
> > noticable when on load - that is when its most
> > apparent...
> > 
> > rgds
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > At 01:33 AM 6/28/06, you wrote:
> > >I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto a
> > >1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl). It runs well,
> > idles
> > >smoothly, but I have a couple of issues. 
> > >
> > >1?It has some hesitation on acceleration. Not when
> > I
> > >rev it in the garage, but when its in gear. Timing
> > is
> > >currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I?m
> > >thinking of adding a little more advance to it. 
> > Any
> > >other ideas? It actually stalls out sometimes when
> > I
> > >try to make a fast getaway. 
> > >
> > >2?I put the ECU under the dash. I reached in and
> > put
> > >my hand on the box after I had been driving a
> > while,
> > >and it was VERY hot to the touch. I almost
> > couldn?t
> > >hold on to it. Is this a normal operating
> > condition
> > >of the GM ECU? 
> > >
> > >Any tips are appreciated! 
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around 
> > >http://mail.yahoo.com 
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Diy_efi mailing list
> > >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > 
> > 
> > Regards from
> > 
> > 
> > Mike
> > Perth, Western Australia
> > VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> > Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle
> > sidecars
> > http://niche.iinet.net.au
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


 		
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on  Yahoo! Small Business. 

From llemoine at gmail.com  Wed Jun 28 09:31:46 2006
From: llemoine at gmail.com (Lee M. Lemoine)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:31:46 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation
In-Reply-To: <20060628135912.22798.qmail@web36705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060627.235352.-67801.7.dgilbert78@juno.com>
	<20060628135912.22798.qmail@web36705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bedc2dea0606280731m80446f7r9ab69cec8ff4aca3@mail.gmail.com>

And yes, obviously make sure there are no leaks, but, a new chunk of  hose
to go from the manifold and into the MAP wouldn't hurt anyone, and at 50
cents a foot, why not?  i'd also shoot some carb cleaner in there to make
sure its not clogged with carbon..


On 6/28/06, Jim Butterfield <jimbutterfield at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Ditto.... Ditto.... back in the day when I worked at Firestone, we'd see
> little chevys come in with the 2.0L engines and they had an elbow tube
> from map to the manifold... and the elbow would either crack out and leak
> vacuum or plug up with carbon and such...
>
>
>
> dgilbert78 at juno.com wrote:
>   Hello: If you have a MAP system make absolutely sure that the vacuum to
> the MAP is on time, not delayed. Lots of times on GM TBI units (possibly
> others) the vacuum port to the MAP becomes plugged with carbon to the
> point that the orface is so small that the vacuum is delayed to the MAP,
> this will without a doubt cause hessitation on quick throttle opening. On
> slow no load throttle opening the vacuum is fast enough to run the MAP
> and the problem is not present. There is no test for this unless the MAP
> port is completely plugged, then it is obvious, because you will get no
> MAP change. I had to pull the TPI and rod the port and choke cleaner it.
> After that no more hesitation, Probably any problem with the vacuum hose
> to the MAP would cause a similiar problem,
> good luck
> Darryl...
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Scott Scott
> writes:
> > Thanks for the reply. So the EFI system creates its
> > own virtual accelerator pump of sorts? Makes sense, a
> > little extra fuel to compensate for the higher demand.
> >
> >
> > What do I do to diagnose this and correct it?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> > --- Mike wrote:
> >
> > > Any transient mixture enrichment on rate of change
> > > of throttle position ?
> > >
> > > Even the oldie hitachi/bosch ecu reads rate of
> > > change of throttle
> > > position and intersperses extra injection pulses to
> > > act like the
> > > old accelerator pump of the carbie days, seems like
> > > you have
> > > that issue from your description as you report its
> > > more than
> > > noticable when on load - that is when its most
> > > apparent...
> > >
> > > rgds
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 01:33 AM 6/28/06, you wrote:
> > > >I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto a
> > > >1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl). It runs well,
> > > idles
> > > >smoothly, but I have a couple of issues.
> > > >
> > > >1?It has some hesitation on acceleration. Not when
> > > I
> > > >rev it in the garage, but when its in gear. Timing
> > > is
> > > >currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I'm
> > > >thinking of adding a little more advance to it.
> > > Any
> > > >other ideas? It actually stalls out sometimes when
> > > I
> > > >try to make a fast getaway.
> > > >
> > > >2?I put the ECU under the dash. I reached in and
> > > put
> > > >my hand on the box after I had been driving a
> > > while,
> > > >and it was VERY hot to the touch. I almost
> > > couldn't
> > > >hold on to it. Is this a normal operating
> > > condition
> > > >of the GM ECU?
> > > >
> > > >Any tips are appreciated!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >__________________________________________________
> > > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > > protection around
> > > >http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Diy_efi mailing list
> > > >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > >http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards from
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > Perth, Western Australia
> > > VL Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
> > > Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle
> > > sidecars
> > > http://niche.iinet.net.au
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Diy_efi mailing list
> > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> _______________________________________________
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>



-- 
Sincerely,
Lee M. Lemoine
KB1NQI  - Amateur Radio
http://www.turbochargedsoul.com/
'06 Subaru Legacy GT Limited - 250/250 AWD 5EAT
'93 Chevy Cavalier Z24 Convertible - 300/330 FWD 5MT (Mclaren Turbo!)


From dirtrider218 at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 28 09:46:23 2006
From: dirtrider218 at hotmail.com (John Smith1882)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:46:23 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Hesitation
In-Reply-To: <BAY0-MC5-F4SiahFZhX0064fcb4@bay0-mc5-f4.bay0.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY105-F208BD4985DA91531475882977F0@phx.gbl>

I'll admit upfront that I don't have experience with GM ECUs, but I think 
its probable that something is wrong if the ECU gets too hot to 
touch(usually 130F+). The electronics are probably rated around 200-250F, 
but I doubt they should get even half that hot. If it runs low impedance TBI 
injectors, it should be using a current limiting method to keep things cool 
OR a resistor pack for the injectors so they don't draw too much current. I 
know many imports(non-U.S. cars) used the resistor method from factory.

Re the stumbling, how big was the engine in the Silverado compared to your 
302? I suppose it could be that the Chevy needed more acceleration/tip-in 
enrichment than the 302 and it's flooding when you floor it. Kinda like 
having an accelerator pump that is too big.

>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:33:09 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Scott Scott <scott_o_matic at yahoo.com>
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Message-ID: <20060627173309.84314.qmail at web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto a
>1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl).  It runs well, idles
>smoothly, but I have a couple of issues.
>
>1?It has some hesitation on acceleration.  Not when I
>rev it in the garage, but when its in gear.  Timing is
>currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I?m
>thinking of adding a little more advance to it.  Any
>other ideas?  It actually stalls out sometimes when I
>try to make a fast getaway.
>
>2?I put the ECU under the dash.  I reached in and put
>my hand on the box  after I had been driving a while,
>and it was VERY hot to the touch.  I almost couldn?t
>hold on to it.  Is this a normal operating condition
>of the GM ECU?
>
>Any tips are appreciated!




From tsokorai at xperts.cl  Wed Jun 28 11:28:55 2006
From: tsokorai at xperts.cl (Tomas J. Sokorai Sch.)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:28:55 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation
In-Reply-To: <20060628030753.33129.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20060628030753.33129.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200606281228.56778.tsokorai@xperts.cl>

On Tuesday 27 June 2006 23:07, Scott Scott wrote:
> Thanks for the reply.  So the EFI system creates its
> own virtual accelerator pump of sorts? Makes sense, a
> little extra fuel to compensate for the higher demand.
>
>
> What do I do to diagnose this and correct it?

I'm running a GM TBI setup on my 302 too ('75 F100 pickup). 
What's your cam setup? it will rule your acceleration enrichment and spark 
advance choices.
I'm using a generic "RV" cam with 1.7:1 rockers and the acceleration 
enrichments grew *bigtime* regarding the original valvetrain.

Assuming you're using a 1227747 ECM, you'll need to play with values on the 
Delta TPS AE curve (starts at 0x314 in the bin) and the Delta MAP AE curve 
(0x30e) from your calibration BIN.

Regarding the ignition advance, you need to change the curve on your 
calibration BIN, and not just play with the base distributor advance.
My 302 likes big advance at idle. I'm running a total of 18 deg BTDC at idle.

BTW, if you haven't re-done of the whole VE and spark advance table tuning and 
you're just running the stock GM calibration, you should get these right 
first.

My calibration now runs *great*, but it bears very little resemblance to the 
original calibration. My truck would start and run on the original GM 
calibration, but very crappy compared to what I got with a lot of testing and 
tuning.

Regarding the case temperature, it depends on the environment temperature... 
If I drive after the truck's been in the sun for hours, it will be *hot*, but 
now in winter (I'm on the "wrong" hemisphere of the World :), the ECM case 
barely gets warm.
In fact, on short trips, the humidity and warm temperatures are getting *mold* 
to grow on the label of my ECM :D

-- 
Tomas J. Sokorai Sch.


From red93formula at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 28 19:45:19 2006
From: red93formula at hotmail.com (93 Formula)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:45:19 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] got to get rid of codes
In-Reply-To: <BAY0-MC2-F11Ca8kYQM003cb157@bay0-mc2-f11.bay0.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY101-F313393FB5217BA6DC969AD87C0@phx.gbl>

I think my car threw some codes and is stuck in limp mode, and the ecm won't 
communicate with either of my laptops with either diacom or datamaster so I 
can't reset the codes. I've tried two ecm bins too.  Is there a way I can 
wipe out the codes to get the car running again and communicating with the 
diagnostics?  Before this it had been sitting around since winter, and I 
just replaced the battery. I have pulled the fuses on the ecm too.

Jeff  http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula
Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, 
Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw & 
3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner...




From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Wed Jun 28 21:23:53 2006
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:23:53 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] got to get rid of codes
Message-ID: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C743414061178301098CE5@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>

If you pulled the fuse or disconnected the battery then the codes are
gone.  Just having codes won't put you in limp mode, but the fault that
is setting codes can also keep you in limp mode.  I think you've got
more serious problems -- do you have a spare PCM?

--steve 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of 93 Formula
> Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 7:45 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] got to get rid of codes
> 
> I think my car threw some codes and is stuck in limp mode, 
> and the ecm won't communicate with either of my laptops with 
> either diacom or datamaster so I can't reset the codes. I've 
> tried two ecm bins too.  Is there a way I can wipe out the 
> codes to get the car running again and communicating with the 
> diagnostics?  Before this it had been sitting around since 
> winter, and I just replaced the battery. I have pulled the 
> fuses on the ecm too.
> 
> Jeff  http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula
> Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 
> 3.73s, Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, 
> Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw &
> 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner...
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 

-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.



From red93formula at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 28 21:43:39 2006
From: red93formula at hotmail.com (93 Formula)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:43:39 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] got to get rid of codes
In-Reply-To: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C743414061178301098CE5@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>
Message-ID: <BAY101-F347BA7C5B3F15BD7E9C3BED87C0@phx.gbl>

>From: "Steve Ravet" <Steve.Ravet at arm.com>
>
>If you pulled the fuse or disconnected the battery then the codes are
>gone.  Just having codes won't put you in limp mode, but the fault that
>is setting codes can also keep you in limp mode.  I think you've got
>more serious problems -- do you have a spare PCM?
>
My car actually has an ecm and I've tried two differently programmed chips.
I don't have a spare computer though.
Story of my life - always more serious problems :-( Thanks anyways.

Jeff  http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula
Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, 
Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw & 
3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner...




From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Wed Jun 28 22:43:04 2006
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:43:04 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] twiki help
Message-ID: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C743414061178301098CF8@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>

I've downloaded a twiki for the gmecm and diy-efi pages.  I'm no admin
so I need some help with the installation and configuration.  It's on a
hosted site, and I don't have root access, which will make it that much
more fun.  If anyone has suggestions please get with me off list

thanks,
--steve

-------------------
Steve Ravet
ARM
steve.ravet at arm.com

-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.



From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Jun 29 06:46:53 2006
From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:46:53 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] nissan L28 engine
Message-ID: <44A3BDAD.9030500@f2s.com>

Hey guys.

good news on the L28 in my 280Z... it seems to turn freely!

the plugs have come out with only a dry powdery carbon coating on them, 
they dont look crackedor damaged at all. knowing nothing about petrol 
engines I read that this suggests either over rich fuelling, excessive 
idling, or the wrong plug type. on the plus side, I guess it means the 
engine likely doesnt have any serious oil burning issues...

radiator needed 2 litres of water to top it up. no idea how much a 
system can lose standing around for 6 years, but it doesnt _appear_ to 
be going anywhere nefarious...

sprayed in some WD-40 and tried turning it over by hand. I got some 
motion without trying too hard (turned the alternator pulley because the 
crank is near inaccessible behind that mother of a fan...) so I let it 
stand a while and turned over the engine (minus plugs) with the starter. 
it seems to turn freely enough and the oil pressure idiot light goes out 
(although the guage reads 0). The cranking was pretty even - no sign of 
binding.

tried reconnecting the plugs and got no start. then I realised that I 
couldnt hear the fuel pump when I turned the key. After first setting 
off the alarm (didnt realise it worked!) and then disabling the damn 
thing, I could hear the fuel pump when the key was turned. however still 
no start.

What next? I assume I'll need a strobe or something, and is there any 
way to monitor an injector (bosch L-jet) to see if they are being fired?

can I squirt carb cleaner or something into the air intake to start it? 
is it safe to do so?

On the plus side, the drivers door I removed seems to be in reasonable 
shape - its down to clean metal over much of the outside. theres some 
bad pitting, but not much else. the underside of the inner panel is 
quite rusted though - but nothing terrible.




From b.shaw at comcast.net  Thu Jun 29 07:27:52 2006
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:27:52 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] nissan L28 engine
In-Reply-To: <44A3BDAD.9030500@f2s.com>
References: <44A3BDAD.9030500@f2s.com>
Message-ID: <44A3C748.9020001@comcast.net>

Hi Ian,

Did you drain the fuel and add fresh?  It will no longer be fuel after 6 
years of sitting.  Can you crack the fuel line near the engine somewhere 
and verify you have fuel pressure?

You can hear the injectors clicking when they fire.  I use a stethoscope 
and touch the top of each one,  you can isolate a bad one this way.  You 
should also be able to smell fuel coming out the tail pipe if it's 
pumping fuel and air but not firing.  You can start it on starting fluid 
but don't run it long that way.

Pull a plug,  plug it into a wire and leave it laying on top of the 
engine where you can see it while you crank,  You should be able to see 
the spark.

hth,

Bill
'82 928s 5 sp. Vortech/749 (No longer L-Jet)


Ian Molton wrote:
> Hey guys.
>
> good news on the L28 in my 280Z... it seems to turn freely!
>
> the plugs have come out with only a dry powdery carbon coating on 
> them, they dont look crackedor damaged at all. knowing nothing about 
> petrol engines I read that this suggests either over rich fuelling, 
> excessive idling, or the wrong plug type. on the plus side, I guess it 
> means the engine likely doesnt have any serious oil burning issues...
>
> radiator needed 2 litres of water to top it up. no idea how much a 
> system can lose standing around for 6 years, but it doesnt _appear_ to 
> be going anywhere nefarious...
>
> sprayed in some WD-40 and tried turning it over by hand. I got some 
> motion without trying too hard (turned the alternator pulley because 
> the crank is near inaccessible behind that mother of a fan...) so I 
> let it stand a while and turned over the engine (minus plugs) with the 
> starter. it seems to turn freely enough and the oil pressure idiot 
> light goes out (although the guage reads 0). The cranking was pretty 
> even - no sign of binding.
>
> tried reconnecting the plugs and got no start. then I realised that I 
> couldnt hear the fuel pump when I turned the key. After first setting 
> off the alarm (didnt realise it worked!) and then disabling the damn 
> thing, I could hear the fuel pump when the key was turned. however 
> still no start.
>
> What next? I assume I'll need a strobe or something, and is there any 
> way to monitor an injector (bosch L-jet) to see if they are being fired?
>
> can I squirt carb cleaner or something into the air intake to start 
> it? is it safe to do so?
>
> On the plus side, the drivers door I removed seems to be in reasonable 
> shape - its down to clean metal over much of the outside. theres some 
> bad pitting, but not much else. the underside of the inner panel is 
> quite rusted though - but nothing terrible.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>



From david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 29 08:51:16 2006
From: david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com (David Rowley)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:51:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation 
In-Reply-To: <20060627173309.84314.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060629135116.65133.qmail@web60916.mail.yahoo.com>

I've put a couple of GM TBI units with a 1227747 ECM on 3 different vehicles (only 1 was a Chevy).  Even though all three motors looked similar on paper, they all had different fuel and spark needs.  The GM TBI has 2 different "accelerator pump" tables.  One is for differential MAP and the other is for Differential Throttle Position (as read from the TPS).  You will need to change and test these 2 tables to fix the hesitation problem.  The easiest way is to use software like Tunercat with a Pocket Programmer, or make friends with someone else who has these tools.
   
  Yes, the ECM gets hot.  Not to worry.
   
  Good Luck,
   
  

Scott Scott <scott_o_matic at yahoo.com> wrote:
  I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto a
1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl). It runs well, idles
smoothly, but I have a couple of issues. 

1?It has some hesitation on acceleration. Not when I
rev it in the garage, but when its in gear. Timing is
currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I?m
thinking of adding a little more advance to it. Any
other ideas? It actually stalls out sometimes when I
try to make a fast getaway. 

2?I put the ECU under the dash. I reached in and put
my hand on the box after I had been driving a while,
and it was VERY hot to the touch. I almost couldn?t
hold on to it. Is this a normal operating condition
of the GM ECU? 

Any tips are appreciated! 


__________________________________________________
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From five10man at commspeed.net  Thu Jun 29 10:10:37 2006
From: five10man at commspeed.net (Tom Visel)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:10:37 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] nissan L28 engine
In-Reply-To: <44A3C748.9020001@comcast.net>
References: <44A3BDAD.9030500@f2s.com> <44A3C748.9020001@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <44A3ED6D.5080303@commspeed.net>

Make sure you do the spark-checking thing before you do the 
fuel-checking thing.  Vapors can travel, as well as remain on your 
hands.  These engines are infamous for having corroded injector and 
cylinder head temp sensor (coolant temp sensor) connectors.  
Fortunately, if you aren't doing a 100-point restoration, just about 
anyone's injector connectors will do as replacements, and if you get a 
replacement coolant temp sensor, it may or may not have the locating lug 
on it that keeps you from using a plain-jane injector connector for it 
also.  If you have corrosion, you will be fighting all sorts of 
driveability symptoms for the rest of its life, so check out those 
connectors.  Get a noid light set ($15-20 buck for a cheap set, and 
they're just fine) to check injector pulse.
HTH,
TomV


Bill - Comcast wrote:

> Hi Ian,
>
> Did you drain the fuel and add fresh?  It will no longer be fuel after 
> 6 years of sitting.  Can you crack the fuel line near the engine 
> somewhere and verify you have fuel pressure?
>
> You can hear the injectors clicking when they fire.  I use a 
> stethoscope and touch the top of each one,  you can isolate a bad one 
> this way.  You should also be able to smell fuel coming out the tail 
> pipe if it's pumping fuel and air but not firing.  You can start it on 
> starting fluid but don't run it long that way.
>
> Pull a plug,  plug it into a wire and leave it laying on top of the 
> engine where you can see it while you crank,  You should be able to 
> see the spark.
>
> hth,
>
> Bill
> '82 928s 5 sp. Vortech/749 (No longer L-Jet)
>
>
> Ian Molton wrote:
>
>> Hey guys.
>>
>> good news on the L28 in my 280Z... it seems to turn freely!
>>
>> the plugs have come out with only a dry powdery carbon coating on 
>> them, they dont look crackedor damaged at all. knowing nothing about 
>> petrol engines I read that this suggests either over rich fuelling, 
>> excessive idling, or the wrong plug type. on the plus side, I guess 
>> it means the engine likely doesnt have any serious oil burning issues...
>>
>> radiator needed 2 litres of water to top it up. no idea how much a 
>> system can lose standing around for 6 years, but it doesnt _appear_ 
>> to be going anywhere nefarious...
>>
>> sprayed in some WD-40 and tried turning it over by hand. I got some 
>> motion without trying too hard (turned the alternator pulley because 
>> the crank is near inaccessible behind that mother of a fan...) so I 
>> let it stand a while and turned over the engine (minus plugs) with 
>> the starter. it seems to turn freely enough and the oil pressure 
>> idiot light goes out (although the guage reads 0). The cranking was 
>> pretty even - no sign of binding.
>>
>> tried reconnecting the plugs and got no start. then I realised that I 
>> couldnt hear the fuel pump when I turned the key. After first setting 
>> off the alarm (didnt realise it worked!) and then disabling the damn 
>> thing, I could hear the fuel pump when the key was turned. however 
>> still no start.
>>
>> What next? I assume I'll need a strobe or something, and is there any 
>> way to monitor an injector (bosch L-jet) to see if they are being fired?
>>
>> can I squirt carb cleaner or something into the air intake to start 
>> it? is it safe to do so?
>>
>> On the plus side, the drivers door I removed seems to be in 
>> reasonable shape - its down to clean metal over much of the outside. 
>> theres some bad pitting, but not much else. the underside of the 
>> inner panel is quite rusted though - but nothing terrible.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>


From scott_o_matic at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 29 15:39:50 2006
From: scott_o_matic at yahoo.com (Scott Scott)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:39:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hesitation 
In-Reply-To: <20060629135116.65133.qmail@web60916.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20060629203950.86872.qmail@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

So it looks like I need to do some chip reprogramming.
 Of course I dont have the tools for this, but it
sounds interesting.  Anyone near Sacramento that wants
to lend a hand?

I have an ALDL connection on this setup, but no check
engine light.  Any idea how I can wire a light bulb
onto this ECU to create my own?

Thanks


--- David Rowley <david_rowley2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I've put a couple of GM TBI units with a 1227747 ECM
> on 3 different vehicles (only 1 was a Chevy).  Even
> though all three motors looked similar on paper,
> they all had different fuel and spark needs.  The GM
> TBI has 2 different "accelerator pump" tables.  One
> is for differential MAP and the other is for
> Differential Throttle Position (as read from the
> TPS).  You will need to change and test these 2
> tables to fix the hesitation problem.  The easiest
> way is to use software like Tunercat with a Pocket
> Programmer, or make friends with someone else who
> has these tools.
>    
>   Yes, the ECM gets hot.  Not to worry.
>    
>   Good Luck,
>    
>   
> 
> Scott Scott <scott_o_matic at yahoo.com> wrote:
>   I just put a TBI setup from a 1991 Silverado onto
> a
> 1969 Mustang with a 302 (2bbl). It runs well, idles
> smoothly, but I have a couple of issues. 
> 
> 1?It has some hesitation on acceleration. Not when I
> rev it in the garage, but when its in gear. Timing
> is
> currently set at 10 degrees BTDC (base timing), I?m
> thinking of adding a little more advance to it. Any
> other ideas? It actually stalls out sometimes when I
> try to make a fast getaway. 
> 
> 2?I put the ECU under the dash. I reached in and put
> my hand on the box after I had been driving a while,
> and it was VERY hot to the touch. I almost couldn?t
> hold on to it. Is this a normal operating condition
> of the GM ECU? 
> 
> Any tips are appreciated! 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 
> 
>  		
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From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Jun 29 16:21:41 2006
From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:21:41 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] nissan L28 engine
In-Reply-To: <44A3ED6D.5080303@commspeed.net>
References: <44A3BDAD.9030500@f2s.com> <44A3C748.9020001@comcast.net>
	<44A3ED6D.5080303@commspeed.net>
Message-ID: <44A44465.1090606@f2s.com>

Tom Visel wrote:
> Make sure you do the spark-checking thing before you do the 
> fuel-checking thing.

Yes, of course - stands to reason :-)

> These engines are infamous for having corroded injector and 
> cylinder head temp sensor (coolant temp sensor) connectors.  
> Fortunately, if you aren't doing a 100-point restoration, just about 
> anyone's injector connectors will do as replacements,

Thats good to know.

Are the stock injectors any good? I would imagine they've had a few 
miles on them by now. how long are injectors expected to last?

How can I find out what injectors will fit if I want to replace / 
upgrade them ?

 > If you have corrosion, you will be fighting all sorts of
> driveability symptoms for the rest of its life, so check out those 
> connectors.  Get a noid light set ($15-20 buck for a cheap set, and 
> they're just fine) to check injector pulse.

Thanks for the advice.


From b.shaw at comcast.net  Thu Jun 29 18:39:27 2006
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill - Comcast)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:39:27 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] nissan L28 engine
In-Reply-To: <44A44465.1090606@f2s.com>
References: <44A3BDAD.9030500@f2s.com>
	<44A3C748.9020001@comcast.net>	<44A3ED6D.5080303@commspeed.net>
	<44A44465.1090606@f2s.com>
Message-ID: <44A464AF.3040603@comcast.net>

You might try having them cleaned if you have doubts about them...
http://www.witchhunter.com/index.htm

Bill
'84 928s 5 sp. Vortech/749
'87 944s 5 sp. (for sale!)
http://bill.shaw.gotdns.com/gold944/p-944fs.htm

Ian Molton wrote:
> Thats good to know.
>
> Are the stock injectors any good? I would imagine they've had a few 
> miles on them by now. how long are injectors expected to last?
>
> How can I find out what injectors will fit if I want to replace / 
> upgrade them ?
>
> Thanks for the advice.



From five10man at commspeed.net  Thu Jun 29 20:06:23 2006
From: five10man at commspeed.net (Tom Visel)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:06:23 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] nissan L28 engine
In-Reply-To: <44A464AF.3040603@comcast.net>
References: <44A3BDAD.9030500@f2s.com>	<44A3C748.9020001@comcast.net>	<44A3ED6D.5080303@commspeed.net>	<44A44465.1090606@f2s.com>
	<44A464AF.3040603@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <44A4790F.1070904@commspeed.net>

IDK about "any good" 'cuz I've not been down the modifications road with 
them, only done the repairs.  As far as reliability goes, the injectors 
seem not to be a weak point; their mounts and connectors don't hold up 
over time, due to corrosion and heat.  I'm sure there's a FAQ on a Z 
forum somewhere that will tell you which injectors are the best if 
you're building an all-out system.
TomV

Bill - Comcast wrote:

> You might try having them cleaned if you have doubts about them...
> http://www.witchhunter.com/index.htm
>
> Bill
> '84 928s 5 sp. Vortech/749
> '87 944s 5 sp. (for sale!)
> http://bill.shaw.gotdns.com/gold944/p-944fs.htm
>
> Ian Molton wrote:
>
>> Thats good to know.
>>
>> Are the stock injectors any good? I would imagine they've had a few 
>> miles on them by now. how long are injectors expected to last?
>>
>> How can I find out what injectors will fit if I want to replace / 
>> upgrade them ?
>>
>> Thanks for the advice.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>


From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Fri Jun 30 02:51:13 2006
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 17:51:13 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] Limp Mode
In-Reply-To: <20060629170016.ADAA73B6B0@ns2.nec.com.au>
References: <20060629170016.ADAA73B6B0@ns2.nec.com.au>
Message-ID: <44A4D7F1.9080302@nec.com.au>

Jeff,
	Here in Aus some early digital injection cars had a "FEATURE" that if the the 
battery was disconnected it always went to 'Limp home' mode - they had to be 
taken to a dealer to 'fix' them - I have not owned such a vehicle, but a friend 
did! - It was most "inconvenient" when the battery died and had to be replaced 
out in the 'bush' several hundred kilometers from the nearest 'dealer'....

Bill

> 
> Subject:
> [Diy_efi] got to get rid of codes
> From:
> "93 Formula" <red93formula at hotmail.com>
> Date:
> Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:45:19 -0400
> To:
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> To:
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> 
> 
> I think my car threw some codes and is stuck in limp mode, and the ecm 
> won't communicate with either of my laptops with either diacom or 
> datamaster so I can't reset the codes. I've tried two ecm bins too.  Is 
> there a way I can wipe out the codes to get the car running again and 
> communicating with the diagnostics?  Before this it had been sitting 
> around since winter, and I just replaced the battery. I have pulled the 
> fuses on the ecm too.
> 
> Jeff  http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula
> Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, 
> Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win 
> Sw & 3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner...
> 
> 
> 
> 
.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi


From spyro at f2s.com  Fri Jun 30 06:14:12 2006
From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:14:12 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] nissan L28 engine
In-Reply-To: <44A464AF.3040603@comcast.net>
References: <44A3BDAD.9030500@f2s.com>	<44A3C748.9020001@comcast.net>	<44A3ED6D.5080303@commspeed.net>	<44A44465.1090606@f2s.com>
	<44A464AF.3040603@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <44A50784.4090009@f2s.com>

Bill - Comcast wrote:
> You might try having them cleaned if you have doubts about them...
> http://www.witchhunter.com/index.htm

That looks like a nice professional service... Im in the UK though :-)


From scott_o_matic at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 30 11:48:02 2006
From: scott_o_matic at yahoo.com (Scott Scott)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:48:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Adding headers to GM TBI system
Message-ID: <20060630164802.25083.qmail@web36614.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have a Ford 302 with a GM TBI system on it.  I'm
thinking of adding hedders but I have heard that,
because the TBI is a speed denisty system, adding
hedders can screw up the system.  

Is this true, or can I just go for it?   Anyone know
who can help me with chip programming near Sacramento,
CA? 


__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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From cwrxr at earthlink.net  Fri Jun 30 12:29:37 2006
From: cwrxr at earthlink.net (Curtis Richards)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:29:37 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Oxygen sensors and superchargers
Message-ID: <44A55F81.30709@earthlink.net>

Happy Fourth to one and all,

Can anyone give give me some pointers on mounting O2 sensors on 
supercharged engines?  When I installed Megasquirt 'n Spark on my 
normally aspirated 1946 CJ2a ( L134 flathead engine ) I used 4 wideband 
LSU O2 sensors and four type K thermocouples to tune the system.  The 
L134 has siamesed intake ports and separate exhaust ports ( 1930's high 
tech? ).  I hooked everything to a laptop and used the data to gradually 
lean out the engine until optimum all the while using the EGT and fuel 
air ratio to monitor the individual cylinders.  By staggering the 
injector pulses and varying the pulse timing I was able to maintain 
control of the siamesed ports tendency to starve fuel to one port. 

I am now installing a 'belt drive turbo'  or Gator supercharger system 
on my Jeep and before I burn holes in the pistons I thought I'd ask:

Will this approach work with a supercharged engine? 
Will the the extra heat load mess up placement of the O2 sensors? 
Should I move the O2 sensors to a cooler area of the header tubes and go 
with self heating sensors?

Or am I worrying over trifles?

TIA  for any help you can give me!

-- 
Curtis W Richards

--
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country."

-- Benjamin Franklin (letter to Benjamin Vaughn, 14 March 1783)




From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Fri Jun 30 14:11:22 2006
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:11:22 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Adding headers to GM TBI system
Message-ID: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C7434140611783010990FD@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>

Headers won't screw anything up, but they will mean the VE table isn't
accurate anymore.  It'll mean some tuning, but likely not as much as
what was done already to account for the 302.  The feedback/BLM can
compensate to some extent for changes like headers.  Who did the tuning
for your current chip?

--steve 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Scott Scott
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:48 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Adding headers to GM TBI system
> 
> I have a Ford 302 with a GM TBI system on it.  I'm thinking 
> of adding hedders but I have heard that, because the TBI is a 
> speed denisty system, adding hedders can screw up the system.  
> 
> Is this true, or can I just go for it?   Anyone know
> who can help me with chip programming near Sacramento, CA? 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection 
> around http://mail.yahoo.com 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 

-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.



From galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Jun 30 14:27:40 2006
From: galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net (Jason M.)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:27:40 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Adding headers to GM TBI system
References: <20060630164802.25083.qmail@web36614.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002501c69c7b$44d5a380$4101a8c0@BILLYBOB>

I'd say go for it.  I did.

Put a set of summit headers on my 92 caprice with TBI 305.  The headers were 
actually for monte carlo/cutlass/malibu so I had to cut the collector off 
the driverside to change the angle.  and flatten part of a tube and the 
collector on the passenger side to get them to fit.  Also had to make my own 
Y-pipe (two 2.5'' U-bends).

Seems to have lost a little bit of low end torque but now has more top end. 
Pre-headers it had nothing after 4200 rpm.  Post-headers it will pull strong 
to 5000 rpm.

I also gained 1mpg and dropped 3 tenths off my 1/4 mile ET, gained 3mph.

As far as what the ecm sees, I've hooked up auto x-ray and all data looks 
just like before.  No trouble codes set.  In my application the only things 
that the engine should really see a change on is less egr flow since the 
valve needs back pressure to open, and the oxygen sensor moves from the 
front of the exhaust manifold collector to the rear of the headers 
collector.

I've heard some estimates/opinions that the stock TBI system can handle 
about 25-30 hp gains through cam/intake/exhaust before the stock tuning is 
so far out that it won't run right.  Of course with tuning you'd probably 
get a few more hp out of that mechanical gain.

At any rate, just change it, worst thing that can happen is you have to do a 
little tuning.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Scott" <scott_o_matic at yahoo.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 12:48 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Adding headers to GM TBI system


>I have a Ford 302 with a GM TBI system on it.  I'm
> thinking of adding hedders but I have heard that,
> because the TBI is a speed denisty system, adding
> hedders can screw up the system.
>
> Is this true, or can I just go for it?   Anyone know
> who can help me with chip programming near Sacramento,
> CA?
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 




From scott_o_matic at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 30 14:29:48 2006
From: scott_o_matic at yahoo.com (Scott Scott)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:29:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Adding headers to GM TBI system
In-Reply-To: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C7434140611783010990FD@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>
Message-ID: <20060630192948.88841.qmail@web36608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks for the info.  

I havent tuned the current chip yet.  I'm still trying
to get an EPROM reader/writer without paying big money
for it.  The car runs pretty well with a 302 using the
GM 305 program.  There are some hesitation issues if I
try to "jackrabbit start," otherwise it runs well-- Im
sure my fuel economy is lower than it should be.  

So I'll put headers on before I tune the chip.  Any
leads on inexpensive EPROM reader/writers would also
be appreciated!

--Scott


--- Steve Ravet <Steve.Ravet at arm.com> wrote:

> Headers won't screw anything up, but they will mean
> the VE table isn't
> accurate anymore.  It'll mean some tuning, but
> likely not as much as
> what was done already to account for the 302.  The
> feedback/BLM can
> compensate to some extent for changes like headers. 
> Who did the tuning
> for your current chip?
> 
> --steve 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
> > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of
> Scott Scott
> > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:48 AM
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: [Diy_efi] Adding headers to GM TBI system
> > 
> > I have a Ford 302 with a GM TBI system on it.  I'm
> thinking 
> > of adding hedders but I have heard that, because
> the TBI is a 
> > speed denisty system, adding hedders can screw up
> the system.  
> > 
> > Is this true, or can I just go for it?   Anyone
> know
> > who can help me with chip programming near
> Sacramento, CA? 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection 
> > around http://mail.yahoo.com 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > 
> 
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and
> any attachments are confidential and may also be
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient,
> please notify the sender immediately and do not
> disclose the contents to any other person, use it
> for any purpose, or store or copy the information in
> any medium.  Thank you.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> 


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From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Fri Jun 30 14:55:12 2006
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:55:12 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Adding headers to GM TBI system
Message-ID: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C74341406117830109912B@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>

> So I'll put headers on before I tune the chip.  Any leads on 
> inexpensive EPROM reader/writers would also be appreciated!

There are some suggestions for burners on the gmecm page in the FAQ.

Before buying one, though, check out some of the ROM emulators that
allow tuning on the fly.  Also there are flash replacements that are
easier to program and don't need the UV eraser.  Craig Moates recently
subscribed and has several varieties for sale, and there are other ones
you can get also.

--steve


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.



From ebuckler at icehouse.net  Fri Jun 30 16:50:09 2006
From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:50:09 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Adding headers to GM TBI system
References: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C74341406117830109912B@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>
Message-ID: <001201c69c8f$28bed810$0300a8c0@clive>

Top reply: Steve, your good advice is made even more valuable when you name 
Brands and give Model Numbers, as well as actual addresses for specific 
gear.  "Ones that I like/use are ......." gets you around the appearance of 
favoritism (free advertising [:oj ), and of course others will add their 
comments, for equal coverage.  This would help those of us who must shop 
eBay for used equipment, to know that even if a tool is not top of the line, 
it works well enough, etc.

Just a thought, eh.
Thanks for your help,
Ernie B.


> So I'll put headers on before I tune the chip.  Any leads on
> inexpensive EPROM reader/writers would also be appreciated!

There are some suggestions for burners on the gmecm page in the FAQ.

Before buying one, though, check out some of the ROM emulators that
allow tuning on the fly.  Also there are flash replacements that are
easier to program and don't need the UV eraser.  Craig Moates recently
subscribed and has several varieties for sale, and there are other ones
you can get also.

--steve




From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Fri Jun 30 17:30:40 2006
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 17:30:40 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Have at it!
Message-ID: <DBB2E4C4173F1749B6C7434140611783010991B4@NASDAQ.usa.Arm.com>

This I'm pretty excited about.  I no longer have to have guilty feelings
about the broken links and missing articles on the WWW page that I never
got around to restoring.  That's because I've installed a TWiki, and
created webs for both gmecm and diy_efi.

If you already know what a TWiki is, then quit reading now and start
creating content for the gmecm and diy_efi pages.

If you don't, a TWiki is a WWW page that can be freely edited by anyone,
using only your normal browser window.  Every WWW page within the TWiki
has an "Edit" link at the bottom.  Click that and you'll be able to edit
the page.  Click "Save" and your changes will immediately be posted and
visible to everyone.  TWiki keeps track of previous versions of pages so
there's no need to worry about accidently deleting things or otherwise
screwing things up.  Every change can be undone, and previous versions
of pages are easily viewable.

My intent is to have everything that is currently on the diy_efi and
gmecm pages moved over to the TWiki so it can be easily maintained.
I'll do that as I get time, but YOU CAN HELP.  I've created a FAQ and
ECM info article on gmecm.  Both are currently empty.  Feel free to move
existing WWW page content to them, or to contribute new material to
them.  Feel free to create new articles, links, hierarchy, etc.  There
is no registration and no logon necessary, although it would be nice if
you did register, so the TWiki can keep track of who edited what.

There is a Sandbox web where you can go to practice, if you want.

Links to the TWiki are at the top of the list of links on each list's
respective WWW page.  Or start here:

http://www.diy-efi.org/twiki/bin/view.pl

The Gmecm and Diyefi links are on the left side of the page.

have fun,
--steve


-------------------
Steve Ravet
ARM
steve.ravet at arm.com

-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.



From red93formula at hotmail.com  Fri Jun 30 19:39:10 2006
From: red93formula at hotmail.com (93 Formula)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 20:39:10 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Limp Mode
In-Reply-To: <44A4D7F1.9080302@nec.com.au>
Message-ID: <BAY101-F14C57F95AEB7EF63DFFABFD8720@phx.gbl>

>From: Bill Washington <bill.washington at nec.com.au>

>Jeff,
>	Here in Aus some early digital injection cars had a "FEATURE" that if the 
>the battery was disconnected it always went to 'Limp home'

Yeah - that WOULD suck. But my car hasn't had this problem before.  Even 
when it was in its worst LIMP mode - the time I blew out a cylinder at the 
track and drove it home, it still communicated with the data aldl port and 
my laptop. I just don't know what type of problem would cause it to not even 
register anything on the data port as well as stay in llimp mode.

Jeff  http://FindFastCars.com 93 Formula
Mods: 355 forged for NOS, LT4 HotTop, 58TB, SLP Cnvrtr, 3.73s, 
Mufflex/Spintech 4" exhaust, Hooker LTs, 300+ Ign, Injctrs, MSD Adj Win Sw & 
3 Ign Ret, K&N CAI, Diacom, CATSTuner...