From atomic at extendwireless.net  Tue Aug  7 22:26:12 2007
From: atomic at extendwireless.net (Charles Woock)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 21:26:12 -0600
Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227727 is the same as a 1227730 ??
References: <46A0E869.306@comcast.net><BAY122-DAV10F25DE3C0A7853CA17582BAF20@phx.gbl>
	<BAY122-DAV44BEC859468635A0310B5BAEE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <002e01c7d96b$df5ef9a0$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE>

Yes, they are the same except for the waterproof case.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "WopOnTour" <wopontour at hotmail.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 11:21 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] 1227727 is the same as a 1227730 ??


>
> Seen this on eBay
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220133490178
> Can anyone confirm that a 1227727 is the same as a 1227730 ?
> Can I just splice in the new connectors and use my AZTY bin with a 27C256 
> ?
> Thanks
> WOT
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 




From atomic at extendwireless.net  Tue Aug  7 22:36:07 2007
From: atomic at extendwireless.net (Charles Woock)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 21:36:07 -0600
Subject: [Diy_efi] injector duty cycle vs VE table data
Message-ID: <003b01c7d96d$4249e470$02dea8c0@AIRBRIDGE>

I am assuming there is a direct, linear relationship between the VE table data (with all the other fuel tables added in) and an injector's duty cycle... What I am trying to figure out is if a max VE entry of 100 is the same as 100% duty cycle or if the ecm does some sort of calculation and equates a VE entry of 100 to 80% on the injector (since most injectors are rated to 80% duty cycle).

Another way to look at this question is; can you overdrive an injector by using VE data that is too high, like a value of 100?  I am guessing that there is someone out there with a test bench who has already tested this question.  Thanks in advance.  

Charles



From mrcad472 at iowatelecom.net  Wed Aug 15 14:21:44 2007
From: mrcad472 at iowatelecom.net (Scott Pearson)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:21:44 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] ever poured a large slab?
References: <F2C29ABA4D75714AAFC89187D9D8F29381687A@THUNDERBIRD.usa.Arm.com>
Message-ID: <005401c7df71$85d27810$8d750747@DELL3G>

I did a pour this spring, with the help of several guys that actually knew 
something about concrete. Was an educational experience, though I doubt I'd 
try to do it myself. Hired one guy that was a pro, the rest were weekenders. 
Did a 19'x22' section in one pour. Here's some pics of the process if you 
want to see it:
www.theautoshop.net/DynoPit.htm
(actual concrete work somewhere in the middle of a bunch of photos)

Scott

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Ravet" <Steve.Ravet at arm.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 9:50 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] ever poured a large slab?


> By large, I mean 25'x45'?  I poured a 10x20 slab last year for a pump
> house (had only ever done fence posts previously) and was pleasantly
> surprised at how it turned out, but that size can be screeded with a 12'
> board, and a hand troweled finish was fine.  I'm building a steel
> building workshop this summer and am contemplating pouring this slab
> myself.  I'm OK with the forms and the steel, but not sure if I'll be
> able to get a good machined finish.  Is this too big a project for a
> DIYer and some friends?
>
> thanks,
> --steve
>
> -------------------
> Steve Ravet
> ARM
> steve.ravet at arm.com
>
> -- 
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended 
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the 
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the 
> information in any medium.  Thank you.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 





From mediasmith at cox.net  Wed Aug 15 17:07:08 2007
From: mediasmith at cox.net (wdsmith)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:07:08 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] ever poured a large slab?
In-Reply-To: <005401c7df71$85d27810$8d750747@DELL3G>
References: <F2C29ABA4D75714AAFC89187D9D8F29381687A@THUNDERBIRD.usa.Arm.com>
	<005401c7df71$85d27810$8d750747@DELL3G>
Message-ID: <46C3790C.9030208@cox.net>

Steve,

I did a 25 x50 addition to my old shed last Fall.
Here is my take on the deal:

I priced concrete from every supplier within delivery range. The price 
varied greatly.
I got estimates from a number of guys who contract this kind of work. 
Again, there was a wide range of quotes.

Aside from the wide price range, both were also out of my ballpark 
budget-wise. I also found that concrete was not that easy to get in this 
area at that time. Must be the Republicans and the recession because 
many of the people I contacted told me they were fully scheduled for 
months and all of them stipulated that their schedule would be 
controlled by when concrete was available.  I actually believe them 
because every time I go anywhere around here (central Oklahoma) I don't 
recognize the place.  New commercial and residential building at a pace 
I haven't seen since the middle of the last oil boom.

I had almost talked myself into learning to love a dirt floor when I 
stumbled onto an older, semi-retired contractor. He does only jobs he 
can handle with his sons and usually only for individuals.  He was doing 
some work for my next-door neighbor and they strolled over to the fence 
to see what I was up to.
We kinda got acquainted and he offered to do my slab if I didn't already 
have plans.  Like most people, I knew "all about concrete" but I also 
have a lot more curiosity than most people so instead of telling him I 
couldn't afford him, I kept him talking and let him lead the way.

I had picked up a few clues about the guy's attitude.  He seemed torn 
between hostile and friendly.  Instead of telling him what I wanted, I 
figured the best thing was to just hint at what I had been considering.  
The more I listened, the more he talked and the more he talked, the more 
I realized what I thought I knew about concrete might be 30 years out of 
date. Near the winding down point, he remarked about moving from 
California back to Oklahoma because he was fed up with <expletive 
deleted> contractors that thought they knew concrete. He went on to say 
that he would do my floor for $x if I'd let him do it right.

His price was about the mid-point of the price range I had for delivered 
concrete alone.  I figured the worst he could do was going to be better 
than dirt so I told him to start whenever he wanted.  He said Friday.

Early Friday morning, he came in with a Bobcat, shot and staked the 
location, leveled the site and had forms up before noon.  The man was an 
artist with that Bobcat.  I suddenly had a warm, fuzzy feeling that this 
guy actually did know what he was doing.    He came back from lunch with 
his sons  and the first concrete truck was no more than 5 minutes 
behind.  The truck driver was an artist too. He had less trouble getting 
that monster  front delivery truck in my back yard than I have getting a 
2 wheeled trailer in and out.   The second  truck was pulling up  as the 
first was leaving  and those guys were flying around  spreading and 
leveling the concrete.

Then everything went to hell.   The third and final truck was late, very 
late.... sidetracked   by an unexpected shortage on another, very large, 
job. After much telephoning, griping and gnashing of teeth, they finally 
got another truck out with a rookie female driver.  She had about as 
much trouble and took about as much time as I expected everybody to have 
getting in my back yard.  It was starting to get dark when she finally 
got unloaded.  Those guys finished the slab in the dark!!! They kept 
saying they were sorry for not doing better but finishing concrete in 
the dark just isn't easy.  Next day, I took a close look and found not a 
single thing I could complain about. It was much smoother and flatter 
than any other concrete around my place.

 From this long story, I offer the following:

1. Realize concrete has changed a lot since Roman times and quite a bit 
in the past few years.  Old ideas are not necessarily still valid.
2. Prices vary a lot. Get several quotes on materials alone and 
contracting finished work.  This will give you a base for judging offerings.
3. Look around for somebody you can work with and trust.  References 
from a picky tightwad like my next door neighbor are usually good.
4. Be prepared to be flexible and go with the flow.  I sent this guy to 
a "friend" of mine who also needed a shop floor.  It didn't work. They 
had conflict over some requirements my "friend" considered essential and 
the contractor didn't..... like different slab thickness in some areas 
and a foundation/footing.

In my prime, I could have done this pad myself under good conditions.  I 
would have worked my butt off and spent quite a bit of unnecessary 
money. I would have been SOL if I were faced with the 3rd truck problem 
because I wouldn't have had any clout with the bulk supplier nor would I 
have known what to do while waiting. If I were to do it again, I'd do 
the same thing. I would do extensive homework on suppliers and 
contractors.  I would go with a contractor if the price compared 
favorably to DIY.  I might try it myself if  there was substantial price 
difference and I knew I had help I could depend on. That last one is 
often a biggie.

After all was said and done, I believe I got honest advice and made the 
right choices..  I didn't use rebar and my slab has not cracked as 
predicted by all the "experts."  I didn't get a 6" thick slab. I've 
loaded it way beyond traditional 4" slab limits with no problems and 
none expected.

Good luck!
WDSmith




Scott Pearson wrote:
> I did a pour this spring, with the help of several guys that actually knew 
> something about concrete. Was an educational experience, though I doubt I'd 
> try to do it myself. Hired one guy that was a pro, the rest were weekenders. 
> Did a 19'x22' section in one pour. Here's some pics of the process if you 
> want to see it:
> www.theautoshop.net/DynoPit.htm
> (actual concrete work somewhere in the middle of a bunch of photos)
>
> Scott
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Ravet" <Steve.Ravet at arm.com>
>
>   
>> By large, I mean 25'x45'?  I poured a 10x20 slab last year for a pump
>> house (had only ever done fence posts previously) and was pleasantly
>> surprised at how it turned out, but that size can be screeded with a 12'
>> board, and a hand troweled finish was fine.  I'm building a steel
>> building workshop this summer and am contemplating pouring this slab
>> myself.  I'm OK with the forms and the steel, but not sure if I'll be
>> able to get a good machined finish.  Is this too big a project for a
>> DIYer and some friends?
>>
>> thanks,
>> --steve
>>
>> -------------------
>> Steve Ravet
>> ARM
>> steve.ravet at arm.com
>>
>>     



From b.shaw at comcast.net  Wed Aug 15 22:23:25 2007
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:23:25 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
Message-ID: <46C3C32D.40406@comcast.net>

I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I 
installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,  it's 
having some weird electrical problem. 

A little background...
I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L v8, 
Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body, and 
749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it on 
all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark plug 
tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the works so 
I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L Porsche 
v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads all 
adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, bigger 
exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set me 
back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to he!! again.
 
I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been through 
all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness from 
the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the injectors 
clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF signal from the 
distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and the ecu 
is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC 
with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just won't start.  
Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the timing belt.  I've 
been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no fire in 
the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all this 
testing.

The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move my 
inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all 8.  
I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire off the 
spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the tip on 
the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move the 
wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the plug 
from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode on the 
block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  I've 
pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both ends 
and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything is 
great,  3.1k ohms per spec.

I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??

Thanks,

Bill
928s 5.0L Vortech/749


From steve at donegan.org  Wed Aug 15 22:33:37 2007
From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:33:37 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <46C3C32D.40406@comcast.net>
References: <46C3C32D.40406@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1187235217.20388.14.camel@wopr.donegan.org>

Only takes 3 things to go bang - gas, spark and compression - you've
verified 2 of the 3 below. Compression seems to be the only thing left.

On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 23:23 -0400, Bill Shaw wrote:
> I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I 
> installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,  it's 
> having some weird electrical problem. 
> 
> A little background...
> I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L v8, 
> Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body, and 
> 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it on 
> all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark plug 
> tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the works so 
> I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L Porsche 
> v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads all 
> adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, bigger 
> exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set me 
> back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to he!! again.
>  
> I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been through 
> all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness from 
> the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the injectors 
> clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF signal from the 
> distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and the ecu 
> is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC 
> with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just won't start.  
> Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the timing belt.  I've 
> been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no fire in 
> the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all this 
> testing.
> 
> The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move my 
> inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all 8.  
> I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire off the 
> spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the tip on 
> the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move the 
> wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the plug 
> from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode on the 
> block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  I've 
> pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both ends 
> and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything is 
> great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
> 
> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bill
> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From dgilbert78 at juno.com  Wed Aug 15 22:48:39 2007
From: dgilbert78 at juno.com (dgilbert78 at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:48:39 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
Message-ID: <20070815.234840.-175669.0.dgilbert78@juno.com>

Hello: Had a problem like that , everything was there , but would not
run. final fix, spark wasn't hot enough. Go buy chep spark energy tester
at parts store. If it does not troow a healthy gap, fix that. I went
absolutely nuts. I had spark, everything, just not enough and the damn
thing would not run.
good luck
Darryl..
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:33:37 -0700 "Steven P. Donegan"
<steve at donegan.org> writes:
> Only takes 3 things to go bang - gas, spark and compression - you've
> verified 2 of the 3 below. Compression seems to be the only thing 
> left.
> 
> On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 23:23 -0400, Bill Shaw wrote:
> > I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I 
> > installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,  
> it's 
> > having some weird electrical problem. 
> > 
> > A little background...
> > I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L 
> v8, 
> > Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body, 
> and 
> > 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it 
> on 
> > all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark 
> plug 
> > tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the 
> works so 
> > I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L 
> Porsche 
> > v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads 
> all 
> > adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, 
> bigger 
> > exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set 
> me 
> > back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to 
> he!! again.
> >  
> > I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been 
> through 
> > all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness 
> from 
> > the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the 
> injectors 
> > clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF signal from 
> the 
> > distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and 
> the ecu 
> > is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at 
> TDC 
> > with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just won't start. 
>  
> > Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the timing belt. 
>  I've 
> > been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no 
> fire in 
> > the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all 
> this 
> > testing.
> > 
> > The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move 
> my 
> > inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all 
> 8.  
> > I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire 
> off the 
> > spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the 
> tip on 
> > the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move 
> the 
> > wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the 
> plug 
> > from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode 
> on the 
> > block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  
> I've 
> > pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both 
> ends 
> > and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything 
> is 
> > great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
> > 
> > I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Bill
> > 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 
> 


From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 15 22:59:01 2007
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:59:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
Message-ID: <265040.39466.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Shaw" <b.shaw at comcast.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 8:23 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749


> The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move 
> my inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on 
> all 8.  I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the 
> wire off the spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and 
> ground the tip on the block and it will fire,  the timing light will 
> light up.  Move the wire back to the plug in the block and it won't 
> fire.  Pull the plug from the block,  put it in the plug wire and 
> ground the electrode on the block and it will fire again.  WTF??? 
> This is driving me nuts.  I've pulled one plug wire off 3 times to 
> check resistance, wiggled both ends and the whole wire looking for 
> an intermittent break,  everything is great,  3.1k ohms per spec.

It's very common to see that sort of thing.  A weak spark can often 
result in jumping the gap at atmospheric pressure, while not jumping 
the gap when trying to light off compressed mixture in a combustion 
chamber.

Find the source of your weak spark, and I imagine things will take 
care of themselves once you fix that.

|    Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)     1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex)    |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|    didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.  |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|               had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut              |
| M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/2qxnyu |
>
> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill
> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
> 




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ 


From niche at iinet.net.au  Wed Aug 15 23:54:29 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:54:29 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <46C3C32D.40406@comcast.net>
References: <46C3C32D.40406@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070816125343.027c0410@iinet.net.au>>

If it was an oldie carby engine with the old world conventional ignition Id say corroded/damaged connections on ballast resistor,

mike


At 11:23 AM 8/16/07, you wrote:
>I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,  it's having some weird electrical problem. 
>A little background...
>I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L v8, Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body, and 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it on all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark plug tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the works so I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L Porsche v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads all adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, bigger exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set me back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to he!! again.
>I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been through all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness from the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the injectors clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF signal from the distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and the ecu is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just won't start.  
>Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the timing belt.  I've been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no fire in the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all this testing.
>
>The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move my inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all 8.  
>I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire off the spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the tip on the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move the wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the plug from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode on the block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  I've pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both ends and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything is great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>
>I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bill
>928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Thu Aug 16 01:35:48 2007
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:35:48 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 30, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <20070816040116.6DFBB7FC81@ns1.nec.com.au>
References: <20070816040116.6DFBB7FC81@ns1.nec.com.au>
Message-ID: <46C3F044.4040002@nec.com.au>

Bill,
    I had a similar problem about 25 years ago, everything appeared to 
be there but it would not go - it turned out that the coil had 
'partially' failed - a shorted turn - it would spark at atmospheric 
pressure but not in the cylinder under compression - changed the coil 
and away she went ...
Good Luck
Bill
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> [Diy_efi] 928/749
> From:
> Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net>
> Date:
> Wed, 15 Aug 2007 23:23:25 -0400
> To:
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
> To:
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
>
> I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I 
> installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,  it's 
> having some weird electrical problem.
> A little background...
> I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L v8, 
> Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body, and 
> 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it on 
> all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark plug 
> tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the works 
> so I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L 
> Porsche v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed 
> heads all adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle 
> body, bigger exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good 
> enough to set me back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it 
> all went to he!! again.
>
> I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been through 
> all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness from 
> the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the 
> injectors clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF 
> signal from the distributor makes it through the ignition module to 
> the ecu and the ecu is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  
> #1 is firing at TDC with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it 
> just won't start.  Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned 
> the timing belt.  I've been through all the basics I can think of, all 
> is good but no fire in the hole. I've reverted to my last known good 
> bin while doing all this testing.
>
> The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move my 
> inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all 8.  
> I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire off 
> the spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the 
> tip on the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  
> Move the wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull 
> the plug from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the 
> electrode on the block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is 
> driving me nuts.  I've pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check 
> resistance, wiggled both ends and the whole wire looking for an 
> intermittent break,  everything is great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>
> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill
> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Thu Aug 16 07:46:10 2007
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 05:46:10 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <20070815.234840.-175669.0.dgilbert78@juno.com>
Message-ID: <F2C29ABA4D75714AAFC89187D9D8F29394CFDD@THUNDERBIRD.usa.Arm.com>

good point, it takes more energy to fire the plug under compression than
in the air.  You didn't mention testing/replacing the coil.

--steve 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of dgilbert78 at juno.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:49 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
> 
> Hello: Had a problem like that , everything was there , but 
> would not run. final fix, spark wasn't hot enough. Go buy 
> chep spark energy tester at parts store. If it does not troow 
> a healthy gap, fix that. I went absolutely nuts. I had spark, 
> everything, just not enough and the damn thing would not run.
> good luck
> Darryl..
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:33:37 -0700 "Steven P. Donegan"
> <steve at donegan.org> writes:
> > Only takes 3 things to go bang - gas, spark and compression 
> - you've 
> > verified 2 of the 3 below. Compression seems to be the only thing 
> > left.
> > 
> > On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 23:23 -0400, Bill Shaw wrote:
> > > I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I 
> > > installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,
> > it's
> > > having some weird electrical problem. 
> > > 
> > > A little background...
> > > I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L
> > v8,
> > > Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body,
> > and
> > > 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it
> > on
> > > all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark
> > plug
> > > tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the
> > works so
> > > I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L
> > Porsche
> > > v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads
> > all
> > > adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, 
> > bigger
> > > exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set
> > me
> > > back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to
> > he!! again.
> > >  
> > > I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been
> > through
> > > all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness
> > from
> > > the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the
> > injectors
> > > clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF 
> signal from 
> > the
> > > distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and
> > the ecu
> > > is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at
> > TDC
> > > with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just 
> won't start. 
> >  
> > > Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the 
> timing belt. 
> >  I've
> > > been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no
> > fire in
> > > the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all
> > this
> > > testing.
> > > 
> > > The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move
> > my
> > > inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all
> > 8.  
> > > I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire
> > off the
> > > spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the
> > tip on
> > > the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move
> > the
> > > wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the
> > plug
> > > from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode
> > on the
> > > block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  
> > I've
> > > pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both
> > ends
> > > and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything
> > is
> > > great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
> > > 
> > > I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > Bill
> > > 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Diy_efi mailing list
> > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > > Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> > 
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 

-- 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.




From kevmurray at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 16 08:08:17 2007
From: kevmurray at hotmail.com (Kevin Murray)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:08:17 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
References: <46C3C32D.40406@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BAY132-DAV76CDA2F4B8F1C01943B10B7DF0@phx.gbl>

Hi Bill, I understand your frustration as I've been there once before. In my 
case it turned out to be a bad ignition coil. Firing the plugs in open air 
is much easier than when under compression. When the impedance at the plug 
is too high (in the cylinder under compression) the coil energy will 
discharge internally. To make things worse, this situation wears the coil 
out faster.
I'll admit I'm not familiar with Porche ignition systems but perhaps this 
will give you some direction.

Kevin Murray

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Shaw" <b.shaw at comcast.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:23 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749


I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I
installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,  it's
having some weird electrical problem.

A little background...
I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L v8,
Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body, and
749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it on
all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark plug
tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the works so
I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L Porsche
v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads all
adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, bigger
exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set me
back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to he!! again.

I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been through
all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness from
the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the injectors
clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF signal from the
distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and the ecu
is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC
with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just won't start.
Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the timing belt.  I've
been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no fire in
the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all this
testing.

The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move my
inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all 8.
I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire off the
spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the tip on
the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move the
wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the plug
from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode on the
block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  I've
pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both ends
and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything is
great,  3.1k ohms per spec.

I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??

Thanks,

Bill
928s 5.0L Vortech/749
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From b.shaw at comcast.net  Thu Aug 16 10:12:12 2007
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:12:12 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <F2C29ABA4D75714AAFC89187D9D8F29394CFDD@THUNDERBIRD.usa.Arm.com>
References: <F2C29ABA4D75714AAFC89187D9D8F29394CFDD@THUNDERBIRD.usa.Arm.com>
Message-ID: <46C4694C.7080902@comcast.net>

Yep,  swapped the coil with a spare I had in inventory (forgot that 
one,  and a few more I'm sure!).  I need to go back there and double 
check,  the spare was used.   No ballast resistors,  I took them out 
when I did the 749 conversion.  I'm off to buy a spark tester today.

Thanks for all the input guys.

Bill

Steve Ravet wrote:
> good point, it takes more energy to fire the plug under compression than
> in the air.  You didn't mention testing/replacing the coil.
>
> --steve 
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
>> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of dgilbert78 at juno.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:49 PM
>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>
>> Hello: Had a problem like that , everything was there , but 
>> would not run. final fix, spark wasn't hot enough. Go buy 
>> chep spark energy tester at parts store. If it does not troow 
>> a healthy gap, fix that. I went absolutely nuts. I had spark, 
>> everything, just not enough and the damn thing would not run.
>> good luck
>> Darryl..
>> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:33:37 -0700 "Steven P. Donegan"
>> <steve at donegan.org> writes:
>>     
>>> Only takes 3 things to go bang - gas, spark and compression 
>>>       
>> - you've 
>>     
>>> verified 2 of the 3 below. Compression seems to be the only thing 
>>> left.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 23:23 -0400, Bill Shaw wrote:
>>>       
>>>> I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I 
>>>> installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,
>>>>         
>>> it's
>>>       
>>>> having some weird electrical problem. 
>>>>
>>>> A little background...
>>>> I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L
>>>>         
>>> v8,
>>>       
>>>> Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body,
>>>>         
>>> and
>>>       
>>>> 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it
>>>>         
>>> on
>>>       
>>>> all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark
>>>>         
>>> plug
>>>       
>>>> tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the
>>>>         
>>> works so
>>>       
>>>> I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L
>>>>         
>>> Porsche
>>>       
>>>> v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads
>>>>         
>>> all
>>>       
>>>> adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, 
>>>>         
>>> bigger
>>>       
>>>> exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set
>>>>         
>>> me
>>>       
>>>> back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to
>>>>         
>>> he!! again.
>>>       
>>>>  
>>>> I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been
>>>>         
>>> through
>>>       
>>>> all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness
>>>>         
>>> from
>>>       
>>>> the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the
>>>>         
>>> injectors
>>>       
>>>> clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF 
>>>>         
>> signal from 
>>     
>>> the
>>>       
>>>> distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and
>>>>         
>>> the ecu
>>>       
>>>> is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at
>>>>         
>>> TDC
>>>       
>>>> with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just 
>>>>         
>> won't start. 
>>     
>>>  
>>>       
>>>> Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the 
>>>>         
>> timing belt. 
>>     
>>>  I've
>>>       
>>>> been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no
>>>>         
>>> fire in
>>>       
>>>> the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all
>>>>         
>>> this
>>>       
>>>> testing.
>>>>
>>>> The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move
>>>>         
>>> my
>>>       
>>>> inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all
>>>>         
>>> 8.  
>>>       
>>>> I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire
>>>>         
>>> off the
>>>       
>>>> spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the
>>>>         
>>> tip on
>>>       
>>>> the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move
>>>>         
>>> the
>>>       
>>>> wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the
>>>>         
>>> plug
>>>       
>>>> from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode
>>>>         
>>> on the
>>>       
>>>> block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  
>>>>         
>>> I've
>>>       
>>>> pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both
>>>>         
>>> ends
>>>       
>>>> and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything
>>>>         
>>> is
>>>       
>>>> great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>>>>
>>>> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>>     
>
>   


From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net  Thu Aug 16 10:33:17 2007
From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 08:33:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
Message-ID: <514399.15190.qm@web80514.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

A poor mans tester:

gap a plug at about 0.175 and test free air

a .025 gap under compression relates to about a .166 gap in free air IIRC from my engine technical training classes

this has worked reliably for me in the past


----- Original Message ----
From: Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:12:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749


Yep,  swapped the coil with a spare I had in inventory (forgot that 
one,  and a few more I'm sure!).  I need to go back there and double 
check,  the spare was used.   No ballast resistors,  I took them out 
when I did the 749 conversion.  I'm off to buy a spark tester today.

Thanks for all the input guys.

Bill

Steve Ravet wrote:
> good point, it takes more energy to fire the plug under compression than
> in the air.  You didn't mention testing/replacing the coil.
>
> --steve 
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
>> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of dgilbert78 at juno.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:49 PM
>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>
>> Hello: Had a problem like that , everything was there , but 
>> would not run. final fix, spark wasn't hot enough. Go buy 
>> chep spark energy tester at parts store. If it does not troow 
>> a healthy gap, fix that. I went absolutely nuts. I had spark, 
>> everything, just not enough and the damn thing would not run.
>> good luck
>> Darryl..
>> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:33:37 -0700 "Steven P. Donegan"
>> <steve at donegan.org> writes:
>>     
>>> Only takes 3 things to go bang - gas, spark and compression 
>>>       
>> - you've 
>>     
>>> verified 2 of the 3 below. Compression seems to be the only thing 
>>> left.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 23:23 -0400, Bill Shaw wrote:
>>>       
>>>> I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I 
>>>> installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,
>>>>         
>>> it's
>>>       
>>>> having some weird electrical problem. 
>>>>
>>>> A little background...
>>>> I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L
>>>>         
>>> v8,
>>>       
>>>> Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body,
>>>>         
>>> and
>>>       
>>>> 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it
>>>>         
>>> on
>>>       
>>>> all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark
>>>>         
>>> plug
>>>       
>>>> tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the
>>>>         
>>> works so
>>>       
>>>> I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L
>>>>         
>>> Porsche
>>>       
>>>> v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads
>>>>         
>>> all
>>>       
>>>> adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, 
>>>>         
>>> bigger
>>>       
>>>> exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set
>>>>         
>>> me
>>>       
>>>> back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to
>>>>         
>>> he!! again.
>>>       
>>>>  
>>>> I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been
>>>>         
>>> through
>>>       
>>>> all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness
>>>>         
>>> from
>>>       
>>>> the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the
>>>>         
>>> injectors
>>>       
>>>> clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF 
>>>>         
>> signal from 
>>     
>>> the
>>>       
>>>> distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and
>>>>         
>>> the ecu
>>>       
>>>> is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at
>>>>         
>>> TDC
>>>       
>>>> with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just 
>>>>         
>> won't start. 
>>     
>>>  
>>>       
>>>> Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the 
>>>>         
>> timing belt. 
>>     
>>>  I've
>>>       
>>>> been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no
>>>>         
>>> fire in
>>>       
>>>> the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all
>>>>         
>>> this
>>>       
>>>> testing.
>>>>
>>>> The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move
>>>>         
>>> my
>>>       
>>>> inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all
>>>>         
>>> 8.  
>>>       
>>>> I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire
>>>>         
>>> off the
>>>       
>>>> spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the
>>>>         
>>> tip on
>>>       
>>>> the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move
>>>>         
>>> the
>>>       
>>>> wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the
>>>>         
>>> plug
>>>       
>>>> from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode
>>>>         
>>> on the
>>>       
>>>> block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  
>>>>         
>>> I've
>>>       
>>>> pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both
>>>>         
>>> ends
>>>       
>>>> and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything
>>>>         
>>> is
>>>       
>>>> great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>>>>
>>>> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>>     
>
>   
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From b.shaw at comcast.net  Thu Aug 16 10:50:51 2007
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:50:51 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <514399.15190.qm@web80514.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <514399.15190.qm@web80514.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46C4725B.5090604@comcast.net>

That's good to know.  I have the parts in stock to do that test :-)

Best,

Bill

Rick McLeod wrote:
> A poor mans tester:
>
> gap a plug at about 0.175 and test free air
>
> a .025 gap under compression relates to about a .166 gap in free air IIRC from my engine technical training classes
>
> this has worked reliably for me in the past
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net>
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:12:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>
>
> Yep,  swapped the coil with a spare I had in inventory (forgot that 
> one,  and a few more I'm sure!).  I need to go back there and double 
> check,  the spare was used.   No ballast resistors,  I took them out 
> when I did the 749 conversion.  I'm off to buy a spark tester today.
>
> Thanks for all the input guys.
>
> Bill
>
> Steve Ravet wrote:
>   
>> good point, it takes more energy to fire the plug under compression than
>> in the air.  You didn't mention testing/replacing the coil.
>>
>> --steve 
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
>>> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of dgilbert78 at juno.com
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:49 PM
>>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>>
>>> Hello: Had a problem like that , everything was there , but 
>>> would not run. final fix, spark wasn't hot enough. Go buy 
>>> chep spark energy tester at parts store. If it does not troow 
>>> a healthy gap, fix that. I went absolutely nuts. I had spark, 
>>> everything, just not enough and the damn thing would not run.
>>> good luck
>>> Darryl..
>>> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:33:37 -0700 "Steven P. Donegan"
>>> <steve at donegan.org> writes:
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Only takes 3 things to go bang - gas, spark and compression 
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> - you've 
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> verified 2 of the 3 below. Compression seems to be the only thing 
>>>> left.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 23:23 -0400, Bill Shaw wrote:
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I 
>>>>> installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> it's
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> having some weird electrical problem. 
>>>>>
>>>>> A little background...
>>>>> I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> v8,
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body,
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> and
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> on
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> plug
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> works so
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> Porsche
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> all
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, 
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> bigger
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> me
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> he!! again.
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>>  
>>>>> I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> through
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> from
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> injectors
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF 
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> signal from 
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> the
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> the ecu
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> TDC
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just 
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> won't start. 
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>  
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the 
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> timing belt. 
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>  I've
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> fire in
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> this
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> testing.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> my
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> 8.  
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> off the
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> tip on
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> the
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> plug
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> on the
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> I've
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> ends
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> is
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>>> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>
>>>     
>>>       
>>   
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>   


From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu  Thu Aug 16 15:45:18 2007
From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F6rn_Forsman?=)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:45:18 +0200
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <BAY132-DAV76CDA2F4B8F1C01943B10B7DF0@phx.gbl>
References: <46C3C32D.40406@comcast.net>
	<BAY132-DAV76CDA2F4B8F1C01943B10B7DF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <46C4B75D.7000507@gengas.nu>

A correctly built ignition coil will never - even at open circuit - give 
so high voltage that it could cause a full internal insulation 
breakdown. However, so-called partial discharges might occur.
Many interesting things can be learnt by studying the ignition voltage 
by oscilloscope. Of course, either a proper high voltage probe or a 
capacitive clamp on the ignition cable is needed.

But another problem is that the primary peak voltage also rises too high 
  during no load conditions and this can damage the switch transistor in 
the ignition module. This is particularly true for GM HEI ignition 
modules that do not have any overvoltage protection for that transistor. 
Those systems rely on the fact that their original ignition coils never 
give more than 350-400 V across the primary. But almost all other 
ignition modules (except suspect aftermarket parts) either have a zener 
diode chain from collector to base of the switch transistor, or a switch 
transistor with zener diodes incorporated on the chip.

Best regards

Torbj?rn Forsman

Kevin Murray wrote:
> Hi Bill, I understand your frustration as I've been there once before. In my 
> case it turned out to be a bad ignition coil. Firing the plugs in open air 
> is much easier than when under compression. When the impedance at the plug 
> is too high (in the cylinder under compression) the coil energy will 
> discharge internally. To make things worse, this situation wears the coil 
> out faster.
> I'll admit I'm not familiar with Porche ignition systems but perhaps this 
> will give you some direction.
> 
> Kevin Murray
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bill Shaw" <b.shaw at comcast.net>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:23 PM
> Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
> 
> 
> I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I
> installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,  it's
> having some weird electrical problem.
> 
> A little background...
> I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L v8,
> Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body, and
> 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it on
> all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark plug
> tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the works so
> I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L Porsche
> v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads all
> adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, bigger
> exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set me
> back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to he!! again.
> 
> I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been through
> all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness from
> the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the injectors
> clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF signal from the
> distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and the ecu
> is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC
> with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just won't start.
> Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the timing belt.  I've
> been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no fire in
> the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all this
> testing.
> 
> The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move my
> inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all 8.
> I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire off the
> spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the tip on
> the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move the
> wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the plug
> from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode on the
> block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  I've
> pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both ends
> and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything is
> great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
> 
> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bill
> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 



From kerrylsmith at verizon.net  Thu Aug 16 16:30:42 2007
From: kerrylsmith at verizon.net (Kerry Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:30:42 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
References: <46C3C32D.40406@comcast.net>
	<BAY132-DAV76CDA2F4B8F1C01943B10B7DF0@phx.gbl>
	<46C4B75D.7000507@gengas.nu>
Message-ID: <003c01c7e04c$b350c5e0$0201a8c0@yourat5qgaac3z>

Hi guys.  I'm a street rodder who just wandered into this forum because I 
built my own EFI.  On street rods, which are mostly 8 cylinder Chevy, Ford 
or Chrysler engines, we usually use an aftermarket ignition system 
consisting of a control module, coil and distributor, from MSD, Mallory or 
other.  This gives the hot spark needed to fire high compression or 
supercharged engines reliably.  Just something to consider.  My MSD setup 
also has an adjustable boost retard feature, to avoid detonation at high 
boost.

Kerry Smith
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Torbj?rn Forsman" <torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749


>A correctly built ignition coil will never - even at open circuit - give so 
>high voltage that it could cause a full internal insulation breakdown. 
>However, so-called partial discharges might occur.
> Many interesting things can be learnt by studying the ignition voltage by 
> oscilloscope. Of course, either a proper high voltage probe or a 
> capacitive clamp on the ignition cable is needed.
>
> But another problem is that the primary peak voltage also rises too high 
> during no load conditions and this can damage the switch transistor in the 
> ignition module. This is particularly true for GM HEI ignition modules 
> that do not have any overvoltage protection for that transistor. Those 
> systems rely on the fact that their original ignition coils never give 
> more than 350-400 V across the primary. But almost all other ignition 
> modules (except suspect aftermarket parts) either have a zener diode chain 
> from collector to base of the switch transistor, or a switch transistor 
> with zener diodes incorporated on the chip.
>
> Best regards
>
> Torbj?rn Forsman
>
> Kevin Murray wrote:
>> Hi Bill, I understand your frustration as I've been there once before. In 
>> my case it turned out to be a bad ignition coil. Firing the plugs in open 
>> air is much easier than when under compression. When the impedance at the 
>> plug is too high (in the cylinder under compression) the coil energy will 
>> discharge internally. To make things worse, this situation wears the coil 
>> out faster.
>> I'll admit I'm not familiar with Porche ignition systems but perhaps this 
>> will give you some direction.
>>
>> Kevin Murray
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Bill Shaw" <b.shaw at comcast.net>
>> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:23 PM
>> Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>
>>
>> I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I
>> installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,  it's
>> having some weird electrical problem.
>>
>> A little background...
>> I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L v8,
>> Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body, and
>> 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it on
>> all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark plug
>> tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the works so
>> I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L Porsche
>> v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads all
>> adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, bigger
>> exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set me
>> back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to he!! 
>> again.
>>
>> I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been through
>> all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness from
>> the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the injectors
>> clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF signal from the
>> distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and the ecu
>> is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC
>> with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just won't start.
>> Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the timing belt.  I've
>> been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no fire in
>> the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all this
>> testing.
>>
>> The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move my
>> inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all 8.
>> I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire off the
>> spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the tip on
>> the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move the
>> wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the plug
>> from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode on the
>> block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  I've
>> pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both ends
>> and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything is
>> great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>>
>> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bill
>> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi 



From b.shaw at comcast.net  Thu Aug 16 19:07:06 2007
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:07:06 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <003c01c7e04c$b350c5e0$0201a8c0@yourat5qgaac3z>
References: <46C3C32D.40406@comcast.net>	<BAY132-DAV76CDA2F4B8F1C01943B10B7DF0@phx.gbl>	<46C4B75D.7000507@gengas.nu>
	<003c01c7e04c$b350c5e0$0201a8c0@yourat5qgaac3z>
Message-ID: <46C4E6AA.6020507@comcast.net>

Hi Kerry,

Nice thing about the '749 is that it properly handles spark and fuel 
under boost conditions so no rising rate fuel pressure or spark retard 
box is necessary.  Looks like my problem is just weak spark as pointed 
out by several here.  I found yet another coil in the cellar and got it 
to run this afternoon.  I bought a new coil but have not had a chance to 
put it in yet. 

Thanks for the reply,  and thanks to everyone else who chimed in,  too.

Best,

Bill

Kerry Smith wrote:
> Hi guys.  I'm a street rodder who just wandered into this forum 
> because I built my own EFI.  On street rods, which are mostly 8 
> cylinder Chevy, Ford or Chrysler engines, we usually use an 
> aftermarket ignition system consisting of a control module, coil and 
> distributor, from MSD, Mallory or other.  This gives the hot spark 
> needed to fire high compression or supercharged engines reliably.  
> Just something to consider.  My MSD setup also has an adjustable boost 
> retard feature, to avoid detonation at high boost.
>
> Kerry Smith
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Torbj?rn Forsman" 
> <torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 3:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>
>
>> A correctly built ignition coil will never - even at open circuit - 
>> give so high voltage that it could cause a full internal insulation 
>> breakdown. However, so-called partial discharges might occur.
>> Many interesting things can be learnt by studying the ignition 
>> voltage by oscilloscope. Of course, either a proper high voltage 
>> probe or a capacitive clamp on the ignition cable is needed.
>>
>> But another problem is that the primary peak voltage also rises too 
>> high during no load conditions and this can damage the switch 
>> transistor in the ignition module. This is particularly true for GM 
>> HEI ignition modules that do not have any overvoltage protection for 
>> that transistor. Those systems rely on the fact that their original 
>> ignition coils never give more than 350-400 V across the primary. But 
>> almost all other ignition modules (except suspect aftermarket parts) 
>> either have a zener diode chain from collector to base of the switch 
>> transistor, or a switch transistor with zener diodes incorporated on 
>> the chip.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Torbj?rn Forsman
>>
>> Kevin Murray wrote:
>>> Hi Bill, I understand your frustration as I've been there once 
>>> before. In my case it turned out to be a bad ignition coil. Firing 
>>> the plugs in open air is much easier than when under compression. 
>>> When the impedance at the plug is too high (in the cylinder under 
>>> compression) the coil energy will discharge internally. To make 
>>> things worse, this situation wears the coil out faster.
>>> I'll admit I'm not familiar with Porche ignition systems but perhaps 
>>> this will give you some direction.
>>>
>>> Kevin Murray
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Shaw" <b.shaw at comcast.net>
>>> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:23 PM
>>> Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>>
>>>
>>> I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I
>>> installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,  it's
>>> having some weird electrical problem.
>>>
>>> A little background...
>>> I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L v8,
>>> Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body, and
>>> 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it on
>>> all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark plug
>>> tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the 
>>> works so
>>> I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L Porsche
>>> v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads all
>>> adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, 
>>> bigger
>>> exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set me
>>> back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to he!! 
>>> again.
>>>
>>> I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been through
>>> all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness from
>>> the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the 
>>> injectors
>>> clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF signal from the
>>> distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and the ecu
>>> is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC
>>> with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just won't start.
>>> Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the timing belt.  
>>> I've
>>> been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no fire in
>>> the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all this
>>> testing.
>>>
>>> The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move my
>>> inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all 8.
>>> I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire off 
>>> the
>>> spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the 
>>> tip on
>>> the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move the
>>> wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the plug
>>> from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode on 
>>> the
>>> block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  I've
>>> pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both ends
>>> and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything is
>>> great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>>>
>>> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Bill
>>> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>


From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net  Fri Aug 17 09:38:42 2007
From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:38:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
Message-ID: <858501.20651.qm@web80513.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

W/ Street Rods, which typically aren't FI, but either normal aspiration or supercharged (blown) through a carby, a MSD usually will handle the job.

the challenge is when using FI to control it under boost, and retard spark in harmony w/ fuel, they really MUST be under controll of the same logic, or you have competing brains making changes to the SYSTEM. Therefore, the 749 is a great choice, and a lot of the code available is Lotus derived from efforts in the 3.1L Pontiac Turbo Grand Prix of the '89/'90 series, which has also to my understanding shown up in other variants on Sunbirds and others.

If you take a look at some of the work done by the Sunbird and TGP groups, you'll find some very agressive but safe and ellegant controls of boost and fuel.

I used to have one of the TGP's ('90 black 2 door) that was stuffed to the max in the wheel wells w/ 245/50/16's (same as my IROC) and would light them on fire launching. The only evidence it was hot was the unique vents in the hood and the fat tires, but otherwise it looked like any other GP. It really made some fun when the beer can Hondas pulled up next to me, I'd let them just barely take me on the first light, then I'd show em' who was boss, and still not have to get into it all the way. It's just too bad that the car itself was of poor quality, it always had some little pesky problem, but fundamentally the engine/drive was rock solid. 

cheers


----- Original Message ----
From: Kerry Smith <kerrylsmith at verizon.net>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 4:30:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749


Hi guys.  I'm a street rodder who just wandered into this forum because I 
built my own EFI.  On street rods, which are mostly 8 cylinder Chevy, Ford 
or Chrysler engines, we usually use an aftermarket ignition system 
consisting of a control module, coil and distributor, from MSD, Mallory or 
other.  This gives the hot spark needed to fire high compression or 
supercharged engines reliably.  Just something to consider.  My MSD setup 
also has an adjustable boost retard feature, to avoid detonation at high 
boost.

Kerry Smith
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Torbj?rn Forsman" <torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749


>A correctly built ignition coil will never - even at open circuit - give so 
>high voltage that it could cause a full internal insulation breakdown. 
>However, so-called partial discharges might occur.
> Many interesting things can be learnt by studying the ignition voltage by 
> oscilloscope. Of course, either a proper high voltage probe or a 
> capacitive clamp on the ignition cable is needed.
>
> But another problem is that the primary peak voltage also rises too high 
> during no load conditions and this can damage the switch transistor in the 
> ignition module. This is particularly true for GM HEI ignition modules 
> that do not have any overvoltage protection for that transistor. Those 
> systems rely on the fact that their original ignition coils never give 
> more than 350-400 V across the primary. But almost all other ignition 
> modules (except suspect aftermarket parts) either have a zener diode chain 
> from collector to base of the switch transistor, or a switch transistor 
> with zener diodes incorporated on the chip.
>
> Best regards
>
> Torbj?rn Forsman
>
> Kevin Murray wrote:
>> Hi Bill, I understand your frustration as I've been there once before. In 
>> my case it turned out to be a bad ignition coil. Firing the plugs in open 
>> air is much easier than when under compression. When the impedance at the 
>> plug is too high (in the cylinder under compression) the coil energy will 
>> discharge internally. To make things worse, this situation wears the coil 
>> out faster.
>> I'll admit I'm not familiar with Porche ignition systems but perhaps this 
>> will give you some direction.
>>
>> Kevin Murray
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Bill Shaw" <b.shaw at comcast.net>
>> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 11:23 PM
>> Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>
>>
>> I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I
>> installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't start,  it's
>> having some weird electrical problem.
>>
>> A little background...
>> I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L v8,
>> Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle body, and
>> 749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the crap out of it on
>> all the road courses in the northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark plug
>> tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the works so
>> I finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L Porsche
>> v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads all
>> adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body, bigger
>> exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good enough to set me
>> back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then it all went to he!! 
>> again.
>>
>> I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been through
>> all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring harness from
>> the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can hear all the injectors
>> clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel pressure.   The REF signal from the
>> distributor makes it through the ignition module to the ecu and the ecu
>> is putting out EST pulses, verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC
>> with bypass unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just won't start.
>> Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the timing belt.  I've
>> been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but no fire in
>> the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while doing all this
>> testing.
>>
>> The only weird thing I can put my finger on is with spark.  I move my
>> inductive timing light from wire to wire checking for spark on all 8.
>> I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the wire off the
>> spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire and ground the tip on
>> the block and it will fire,  the timing light will light up.  Move the
>> wire back to the plug in the block and it won't fire.  Pull the plug
>> from the block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode on the
>> block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  I've
>> pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both ends
>> and the whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything is
>> great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>>
>> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bill
>> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi 

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From b.shaw at comcast.net  Mon Aug 20 21:22:29 2007
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:22:29 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <46C4725B.5090604@comcast.net>
References: <514399.15190.qm@web80514.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<46C4725B.5090604@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <46CA4C65.80601@comcast.net>

Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the problem.  It will 
start and run now but is still dropping spark intermittently in a couple 
of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module to fire the coil are 
nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the timing light on a couple 
of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's starting to look like 
something in the distributor now,  but I can't imagine what.  The rotor 
and cap look find and check out OK with an ohmmeter. 

I was thinking about changing to a different ignition controller,  maybe 
something like a MSD 6.  Multiple sparks might be of some benefit,  but 
the MSD really won't give me a stronger spark than using the GM 7 pin 
module,  will it?  The spark is generated by the coil,  not the module,  
so I'll get the same voltage won't I?

Bill
Still not sparking on all 8
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net>
>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:12:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>
>>
>> Yep,  swapped the coil with a spare I had in inventory (forgot that 
>> one,  and a few more I'm sure!).  I need to go back there and double 
>> check,  the spare was used.   No ballast resistors,  I took them out 
>> when I did the 749 conversion.  I'm off to buy a spark tester today.
>>
>> Thanks for all the input guys.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> Steve Ravet wrote:
>>  
>>> good point, it takes more energy to fire the plug under compression 
>>> than
>>> in the air.  You didn't mention testing/replacing the coil.
>>>
>>> --steve
>>>      
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
>>>> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of dgilbert78 at juno.com
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:49 PM
>>>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>>>
>>>> Hello: Had a problem like that , everything was there , but would 
>>>> not run. final fix, spark wasn't hot enough. Go buy chep spark 
>>>> energy tester at parts store. If it does not troow a healthy gap, 
>>>> fix that. I went absolutely nuts. I had spark, everything, just not 
>>>> enough and the damn thing would not run.
>>>> good luck
>>>> Darryl..
>>>> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:33:37 -0700 "Steven P. Donegan"
>>>> <steve at donegan.org> writes:
>>>>          
>>>>> Only takes 3 things to go bang - gas, spark and compression       
>>>>>         
>>>> - you've          
>>>>> verified 2 of the 3 below. Compression seems to be the only thing 
>>>>> left.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 23:23 -0400, Bill Shaw wrote:
>>>>>              
>>>>>> I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I 
>>>>>> installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't 
>>>>>> start, it's having some weird electrical problem.
>>>>>> A little background...
>>>>>> I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L 
>>>>>> v8, Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle 
>>>>>> body, and  749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the 
>>>>>> crap out of it on all the road courses in the northeast.  Last 
>>>>>> fall it ate 2 spark  plug tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime 
>>>>>> Rock.  New motor was in the  works so I finished it up and got it 
>>>>>> in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L Porsche v8, '87 big dish 
>>>>>> pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads all adding up to 
>>>>>> about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body,            
>>>>> bigger   exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good 
>>>>> enough to set me  back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then 
>>>>> it all went to he!! again.              
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been  
>>>>>> through all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring 
>>>>>> harness from the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can 
>>>>>> hear all the injectors clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel 
>>>>>> pressure.   The REF      
>>>> signal from  the distributor makes it through the ignition module 
>>>> to the ecu and the ecu is putting out EST pulses, verified by 
>>>> o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC with bypass unplugged.  Everything is 
>>>> great,  it just won't start.                     
>>>>>>> Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the         
>>>>>>>           
>>>> timing belt.          
>>>>>  I've  been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but 
>>>>> no fire in the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while 
>>>>> doing all this testing. The only weird thing I can put my finger 
>>>>> on is with spark.  I move my inductive timing light from wire to 
>>>>> wire checking for spark on all  8.               
>>>>>> I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the 
>>>>>> wire off the spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire 
>>>>>> and ground the tip on  the block and it will fire,  the timing 
>>>>>> light will light up.  Move the wire back to the plug in the block 
>>>>>> and it won't fire.  Pull the plug from the block,  put it in the 
>>>>>> plug wire and ground the electrode  on the block and it will fire 
>>>>>> again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  I've pulled one plug 
>>>>>> wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both ends and the 
>>>>>> whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything  is 
>>>>>> great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>>>>>>


From bidmeadp at iinet.net.au  Mon Aug 20 21:41:59 2007
From: bidmeadp at iinet.net.au (Paul Bidmead)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:41:59 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <46CA4C65.80601@comcast.net>
References: <514399.15190.qm@web80514.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<46C4725B.5090604@comcast.net>
	<46CA4C65.80601@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <46CA50F7.1070602@iinet.net.au>

it will give you boosted spark as the msd will drive the coil directly 
with its own internal driver altho if your having trouble with the spark 
distribution this may not actuall fix the problem moreso than simply 
mask it

have you tried replacing the rotor and cap as it is possible that there 
is still a problem internally - i had a similar problem with my 4.1l 
cortina there was some evidence of flashover internally to the 
distributor housing which was unseen at first inspection



Bill Shaw wrote:
> Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the problem.  It will 
> start and run now but is still dropping spark intermittently in a 
> couple of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module to fire the 
> coil are nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the timing light 
> on a couple of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's starting to 
> look like something in the distributor now,  but I can't imagine 
> what.  The rotor and cap look find and check out OK with an ohmmeter.
> I was thinking about changing to a different ignition controller,  
> maybe something like a MSD 6.  Multiple sparks might be of some 
> benefit,  but the MSD really won't give me a stronger spark than using 
> the GM 7 pin module,  will it?  The spark is generated by the coil,  
> not the module,  so I'll get the same voltage won't I?
>
> Bill
> Still not sparking on all 8
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>

-- 
Regards.
Paul Bidmead
Automated Test Engineer
Omnitronics P/L
PH: (08) 9445 6800
Fax: (08) 9445 1687
Mob: 0404 259 733


=========================================================================
The information in this e-mail is intended for the addressee only.
Unauthorised use, copying, disclosure or distribution by anyone else
is prohibited. Please let us know immediately if you receive this
e-mail in error. Thank you.
=========================================================================



From mls928 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Aug 20 21:55:50 2007
From: mls928 at sbcglobal.net (Mike)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:55:50 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <46CA4C65.80601@comcast.net>
References: <514399.15190.qm@web80514.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<46C4725B.5090604@comcast.net> <46CA4C65.80601@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.18.1311919665.4627.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

Bill, if you haven't already, check to make sure there are good 
connections at both ends of the engine to chasis ground cable (under 
car on passenger side), check the connections at the battery 
(especially those smaller wires on the positive terminal), and the 
ground connection near the coil.

Mike


At 09:22 PM 08/20/07, you wrote:
>Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the problem.  It will 
>start and run now but is still dropping spark intermittently in a 
>couple of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module to fire 
>the coil are nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the timing 
>light on a couple of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's 
>starting to look like something in the distributor now,  but I can't 
>imagine what.  The rotor and cap look find and check out OK with an ohmmeter.
>I was thinking about changing to a different ignition 
>controller,  maybe something like a MSD 6.  Multiple sparks might be 
>of some benefit,  but the MSD really won't give me a stronger spark 
>than using the GM 7 pin module,  will it?  The spark is generated by 
>the coil,  not the module,
>so I'll get the same voltage won't I?
>
>Bill
>Still not sparking on all 8
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----
>>>From: Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net>
>>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:12:12 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>>
>>>
>>>Yep,  swapped the coil with a spare I had in inventory (forgot 
>>>that one,  and a few more I'm sure!).  I need to go back there and 
>>>double check,  the spare was used.   No ballast resistors,  I took 
>>>them out when I did the 749 conversion.  I'm off to buy a spark tester today.
>>>
>>>Thanks for all the input guys.
>>>
>>>Bill
>>>
>>>Steve Ravet wrote:
>>>
>>>>good point, it takes more energy to fire the plug under compression than
>>>>in the air.  You didn't mention testing/replacing the coil.
>>>>
>>>>--steve
>>>>
>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
>>>>>[mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of dgilbert78 at juno.com
>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:49 PM
>>>>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>>>>
>>>>>Hello: Had a problem like that , everything was there , but 
>>>>>would not run. final fix, spark wasn't hot enough. Go buy chep 
>>>>>spark energy tester at parts store. If it does not troow a 
>>>>>healthy gap, fix that. I went absolutely nuts. I had spark, 
>>>>>everything, just not enough and the damn thing would not run.
>>>>>good luck
>>>>>Darryl..
>>>>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:33:37 -0700 "Steven P. Donegan"
>>>>><steve at donegan.org> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Only takes 3 things to go bang - gas, spark and compression
>>>>>>
>>>>>- you've
>>>>>>verified 2 of the 3 below. Compression seems to be the only thing left.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 23:23 -0400, Bill Shaw wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since 
>>>>>>>I installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't 
>>>>>>>start, it's having some weird electrical problem.
>>>>>>>A little background...
>>>>>>>I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 
>>>>>>>4.7L v8, Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, 
>>>>>>>throttle body, and  749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun 
>>>>>>>flogging the crap out of it on all the road courses in the 
>>>>>>>northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark  plug tips and scored 2 
>>>>>>>cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the  works so I 
>>>>>>>finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L 
>>>>>>>Porsche v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude 
>>>>>>>honed heads all adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, 
>>>>>>>bigger throttle body,
>>>>>>bigger   exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good 
>>>>>>enough to set me  back in my seat and put a grin on my 
>>>>>>face,  then it all went to he!! again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been
>>>>>>>through all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the 
>>>>>>>wiring harness from the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting 
>>>>>>>fuel,  I can hear all the injectors clicking,  and have 43 lbs 
>>>>>>>of fuel pressure.   The REF
>>>>>signal from  the distributor makes it through the ignition 
>>>>>module to the ecu and the ecu is putting out EST pulses, 
>>>>>verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC with bypass 
>>>>>unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just won't start.
>>>>>>>>Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>timing belt.
>>>>>>  I've  been through all the basics I can think of, all is good 
>>>>>> but no fire in the hole. I've reverted to my last known good 
>>>>>> bin while doing all this testing. The only weird thing I can 
>>>>>> put my finger on is with spark.  I move my inductive timing 
>>>>>> light from wire to wire checking for spark on all  8.
>>>>>>>I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the 
>>>>>>>wire off the spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the 
>>>>>>>wire and ground the tip on  the block and it will fire,  the 
>>>>>>>timing light will light up.  Move the wire back to the plug in 
>>>>>>>the block and it won't fire.  Pull the plug from the 
>>>>>>>block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode  on 
>>>>>>>the block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me 
>>>>>>>nuts.  I've pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check 
>>>>>>>resistance, wiggled both ends and the whole wire looking for 
>>>>>>>an intermittent break,  everything  is great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bill
>>>>>>>928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 21 01:45:29 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:45:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <46CA4C65.80601@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <290594.46964.qm@web50311.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net> wrote:

> Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the
> problem.  It will 
> start and run now but is still dropping spark
> intermittently in a couple 
> of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module
> to fire the coil are 
> nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the
> timing light on a couple 
> of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's
> starting to look like 
> something in the distributor now,  but I can't
> imagine what.

How many miles on the car? Could be worn bearings or
bushings in the distributor or a worn shaft or
possibly even the drive gear.

With the cap and rotor off, you shouldn't be able to
move the shaft up and down or rotate it more than a
tiny amount. Try wobbling it sideways too.


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/


From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Tue Aug 21 09:02:14 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:02:14 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <290594.46964.qm@web50311.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F948660D0@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

I read in circle track awhile back that it helps to ground the cylinder heads to the block or battery with a good ground strap. The head bolts going into the block having thread sealant on them don't give a good ground for the plugs. 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Gregg Eshelman
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:45 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749


--- Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net> wrote:

> Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the
> problem.  It will 
> start and run now but is still dropping spark
> intermittently in a couple 
> of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module
> to fire the coil are 
> nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the
> timing light on a couple 
> of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's
> starting to look like 
> something in the distributor now,  but I can't
> imagine what.

How many miles on the car? Could be worn bearings or
bushings in the distributor or a worn shaft or
possibly even the drive gear.

With the cap and rotor off, you shouldn't be able to
move the shaft up and down or rotate it more than a
tiny amount. Try wobbling it sideways too.


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies.
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
Thank You.
**************************************************



From niche at iinet.net.au  Tue Aug 21 09:19:14 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:19:14 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F948660D0@CCCMSXCH01.energy.p
	ower.corp>
References: <290594.46964.qm@web50311.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F948660D0@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070821221748.027991c0@iinet.net.au>>

At 10:02 PM 8/21/07, you wrote:
>I read in circle track awhile back that it helps to ground the cylinder heads to the block or battery with a good ground strap. The head bolts going into the block having thread sealant on them don't give a good ground for the plugs. 

Ah ha, that prob explains why the two small screws are used on the RB30
head even though there are head to block locating collars in various places...



From b.shaw at comcast.net  Tue Aug 21 10:15:31 2007
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (b.shaw at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:15:31 +0000
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
Message-ID: <082120071515.14423.46CB019300024CAC000038572206999735990E089CD20D@comcast.net>

Interesting....  There are a pair of grounds in teh injector harness on the passanger's side head but no grounds on the driver's side,  which is where I'm having the trouble.  That's definately worth a shot.

Bill

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: <don.broadus at exeloncorp.com>
> I read in circle track awhile back that it helps to ground the cylinder heads to 
> the block or battery with a good ground strap. The head bolts going into the 
> block having thread sealant on them don't give a good ground for the plugs. 
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of Gregg Eshelman
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:45 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
> 
> 
> --- Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the
> > problem.  It will 
> > start and run now but is still dropping spark
> > intermittently in a couple 
> > of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module
> > to fire the coil are 
> > nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the
> > timing light on a couple 
> > of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's
> > starting to look like 
> > something in the distributor now,  but I can't
> > imagine what.
> 
> How many miles on the car? Could be worn bearings or
> bushings in the distributor or a worn shaft or
> possibly even the drive gear.
> 
> With the cap and rotor off, you shouldn't be able to
> move the shaft up and down or rotate it more than a
> tiny amount. Try wobbling it sideways too.
> 
> 
>        
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> ____
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> **************************************************
> This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
> Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
> confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
> Corporation family of Companies.
> This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
> recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
> to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
> prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
> in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
> delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
> Thank You.
> **************************************************
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From b.shaw at comcast.net  Tue Aug 21 16:45:11 2007
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:45:11 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] 928/749
In-Reply-To: <290594.46964.qm@web50311.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <290594.46964.qm@web50311.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46CB5CE7.7020309@comcast.net>

There's about 160k on the body,  maybe about the same on the 
distributor,  about 100 miles on the rest of the motor.  The bearings in 
teh distrib are OK,  I checked them already but that was a good thought.

Best,

Bill

Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> --- Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>   
>> Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the
>> problem.  It will 
>> start and run now but is still dropping spark
>> intermittently in a couple 
>> of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module
>> to fire the coil are 
>> nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the
>> timing light on a couple 
>> of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's
>> starting to look like 
>> something in the distributor now,  but I can't
>> imagine what.
>>     
>
> How many miles on the car? Could be worn bearings or
> bushings in the distributor or a worn shaft or
> possibly even the drive gear.
>
> With the cap and rotor off, you shouldn't be able to
> move the shaft up and down or rotate it more than a
> tiny amount. Try wobbling it sideways too.
>
>
>        
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>   


From pablojr at comfsm.fm  Tue Aug 21 18:12:21 2007
From: pablojr at comfsm.fm (Pablo Jr. Lamsis)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:12:21 +1100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 30, Issue 6
References: <200708211520.l7LFKRe5013756@shark.comfsm.fm>
Message-ID: <003001c7e448$bb271f30$9c0bd20a@compnii.pohnpeishark.fm>

Bill,
How about checking the distributor shaft. I had the same problem before with 
a Mercedez and after changing almost everything, I found out that the 
distributor shaft was slightly bent causing a misfire on some cylinders. 
Just a suggestion.
Pabs
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 2:20 AM
Subject: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 30, Issue 6


> Send Diy_efi mailing list submissions to
> diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> diy_efi-request at diy-efi.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> diy_efi-owner at diy-efi.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Diy_efi digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: 928/749 (Bill Shaw)
>   2. Re: 928/749 (Paul Bidmead)
>   3. Re: 928/749 (Mike)
>   4. Re: 928/749 (Gregg Eshelman)
>   5. RE: 928/749 (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
>   6. RE: 928/749 (Mike)
>   7. RE: 928/749 (b.shaw at comcast.net)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 22:22:29 -0400
> From: Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Message-ID: <46CA4C65.80601 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the problem.  It will
> start and run now but is still dropping spark intermittently in a couple
> of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module to fire the coil are
> nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the timing light on a couple
> of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's starting to look like
> something in the distributor now,  but I can't imagine what.  The rotor
> and cap look find and check out OK with an ohmmeter.
>
> I was thinking about changing to a different ignition controller,  maybe
> something like a MSD 6.  Multiple sparks might be of some benefit,  but
> the MSD really won't give me a stronger spark than using the GM 7 pin
> module,  will it?  The spark is generated by the coil,  not the module,
> so I'll get the same voltage won't I?
>
> Bill
> Still not sparking on all 8
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net>
>>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:12:12 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>>
>>>
>>> Yep,  swapped the coil with a spare I had in inventory (forgot that
>>> one,  and a few more I'm sure!).  I need to go back there and double
>>> check,  the spare was used.   No ballast resistors,  I took them out
>>> when I did the 749 conversion.  I'm off to buy a spark tester today.
>>>
>>> Thanks for all the input guys.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> Steve Ravet wrote:
>>>
>>>> good point, it takes more energy to fire the plug under compression
>>>> than
>>>> in the air.  You didn't mention testing/replacing the coil.
>>>>
>>>> --steve
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org
>>>>> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of dgilbert78 at juno.com
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:49 PM
>>>>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello: Had a problem like that , everything was there , but would
>>>>> not run. final fix, spark wasn't hot enough. Go buy chep spark
>>>>> energy tester at parts store. If it does not troow a healthy gap,
>>>>> fix that. I went absolutely nuts. I had spark, everything, just not
>>>>> enough and the damn thing would not run.
>>>>> good luck
>>>>> Darryl..
>>>>> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:33:37 -0700 "Steven P. Donegan"
>>>>> <steve at donegan.org> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Only takes 3 things to go bang - gas, spark and compression
>>>>>>
>>>>> - you've
>>>>>> verified 2 of the 3 below. Compression seems to be the only thing
>>>>>> left.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 23:23 -0400, Bill Shaw wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since I
>>>>>>> installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't
>>>>>>> start, it's having some weird electrical problem.
>>>>>>> A little background...
>>>>>>> I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche 4.7L
>>>>>>> v8, Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors, throttle
>>>>>>> body, and  749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun flogging the
>>>>>>> crap out of it on all the road courses in the northeast.  Last
>>>>>>> fall it ate 2 spark  plug tips and scored 2 cylinders at Lime
>>>>>>> Rock.  New motor was in the  works so I finished it up and got it
>>>>>>> in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L Porsche v8, '87 big dish
>>>>>>> pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude honed heads all adding up to
>>>>>>> about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams, bigger throttle body,
>>>>>> bigger   exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good
>>>>>> enough to set me  back in my seat and put a grin on my face,  then
>>>>>> it all went to he!! again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been
>>>>>>> through all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the wiring
>>>>>>> harness from the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting fuel,  I can
>>>>>>> hear all the injectors clicking,  and have 43 lbs of fuel
>>>>>>> pressure.   The REF
>>>>> signal from  the distributor makes it through the ignition module
>>>>> to the ecu and the ecu is putting out EST pulses, verified by
>>>>> o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC with bypass unplugged.  Everything is
>>>>> great,  it just won't start.
>>>>>>>> Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> timing belt.
>>>>>>  I've  been through all the basics I can think of, all is good but
>>>>>> no fire in the hole. I've reverted to my last known good bin while
>>>>>> doing all this testing. The only weird thing I can put my finger
>>>>>> on is with spark.  I move my inductive timing light from wire to
>>>>>> wire checking for spark on all  8.
>>>>>>> I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the
>>>>>>> wire off the spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the wire
>>>>>>> and ground the tip on  the block and it will fire,  the timing
>>>>>>> light will light up.  Move the wire back to the plug in the block
>>>>>>> and it won't fire.  Pull the plug from the block,  put it in the
>>>>>>> plug wire and ground the electrode  on the block and it will fire
>>>>>>> again.  WTF???  This is driving me nuts.  I've pulled one plug
>>>>>>> wire off 3 times to check resistance, wiggled both ends and the
>>>>>>> whole wire looking for an intermittent break,  everything  is
>>>>>>> great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bill
>>>>>>> 928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>>>>>>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:41:59 +0800
> From: Paul Bidmead <bidmeadp at iinet.net.au>
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Message-ID: <46CA50F7.1070602 at iinet.net.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> it will give you boosted spark as the msd will drive the coil directly
> with its own internal driver altho if your having trouble with the spark
> distribution this may not actuall fix the problem moreso than simply
> mask it
>
> have you tried replacing the rotor and cap as it is possible that there
> is still a problem internally - i had a similar problem with my 4.1l
> cortina there was some evidence of flashover internally to the
> distributor housing which was unseen at first inspection
>
>
>
> Bill Shaw wrote:
>> Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the problem.  It will
>> start and run now but is still dropping spark intermittently in a
>> couple of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module to fire the
>> coil are nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the timing light
>> on a couple of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's starting to
>> look like something in the distributor now,  but I can't imagine
>> what.  The rotor and cap look find and check out OK with an ohmmeter.
>> I was thinking about changing to a different ignition controller,
>> maybe something like a MSD 6.  Multiple sparks might be of some
>> benefit,  but the MSD really won't give me a stronger spark than using
>> the GM 7 pin module,  will it?  The spark is generated by the coil,
>> not the module,  so I'll get the same voltage won't I?
>>
>> Bill
>> Still not sparking on all 8
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>
> -- 
> Regards.
> Paul Bidmead
> Automated Test Engineer
> Omnitronics P/L
> PH: (08) 9445 6800
> Fax: (08) 9445 1687
> Mob: 0404 259 733
>
>
> =========================================================================
> The information in this e-mail is intended for the addressee only.
> Unauthorised use, copying, disclosure or distribution by anyone else
> is prohibited. Please let us know immediately if you receive this
> e-mail in error. Thank you.
> =========================================================================
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:55:50 -0500
> From: Mike <mls928 at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Message-ID: <mailman.52.1187709337.3064.diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Bill, if you haven't already, check to make sure there are good
> connections at both ends of the engine to chasis ground cable (under
> car on passenger side), check the connections at the battery
> (especially those smaller wires on the positive terminal), and the
> ground connection near the coil.
>
> Mike
>
>
> At 09:22 PM 08/20/07, you wrote:
>>Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the problem.  It will
>>start and run now but is still dropping spark intermittently in a
>>couple of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module to fire
>>the coil are nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the timing
>>light on a couple of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's
>>starting to look like something in the distributor now,  but I can't
>>imagine what.  The rotor and cap look find and check out OK with an 
>>ohmmeter.
>>I was thinking about changing to a different ignition
>>controller,  maybe something like a MSD 6.  Multiple sparks might be
>>of some benefit,  but the MSD really won't give me a stronger spark
>>than using the GM 7 pin module,  will it?  The spark is generated by
>>the coil,  not the module,
>>so I'll get the same voltage won't I?
>>
>>Bill
>>Still not sparking on all 8
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----
>>>>From: Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net>
>>>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>>Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:12:12 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yep,  swapped the coil with a spare I had in inventory (forgot
>>>>that one,  and a few more I'm sure!).  I need to go back there and
>>>>double check,  the spare was used.   No ballast resistors,  I took
>>>>them out when I did the 749 conversion.  I'm off to buy a spark tester 
>>>>today.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for all the input guys.
>>>>
>>>>Bill
>>>>
>>>>Steve Ravet wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>good point, it takes more energy to fire the plug under compression 
>>>>>than
>>>>>in the air.  You didn't mention testing/replacing the coil.
>>>>>
>>>>>--steve
>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org
>>>>>>[mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of dgilbert78 at juno.com
>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:49 PM
>>>>>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hello: Had a problem like that , everything was there , but
>>>>>>would not run. final fix, spark wasn't hot enough. Go buy chep
>>>>>>spark energy tester at parts store. If it does not troow a
>>>>>>healthy gap, fix that. I went absolutely nuts. I had spark,
>>>>>>everything, just not enough and the damn thing would not run.
>>>>>>good luck
>>>>>>Darryl..
>>>>>>On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:33:37 -0700 "Steven P. Donegan"
>>>>>><steve at donegan.org> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Only takes 3 things to go bang - gas, spark and compression
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>- you've
>>>>>>>verified 2 of the 3 below. Compression seems to be the only thing 
>>>>>>>left.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 23:23 -0400, Bill Shaw wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I've been chasing a long series of problems with my 928 since
>>>>>>>>I installed the new motor this spring .  Right now it won't
>>>>>>>>start, it's having some weird electrical problem.
>>>>>>>>A little background...
>>>>>>>>I ran it in a similar configuration for 3 years... Porsche
>>>>>>>>4.7L v8, Vortech supercharger, GM ignition module, sensors,
>>>>>>>>throttle body, and  749 ecu.  Ran great,  had loads of fun
>>>>>>>>flogging the crap out of it on all the road courses in the
>>>>>>>>northeast.  Last fall it ate 2 spark  plug tips and scored 2
>>>>>>>>cylinders at Lime Rock.  New motor was in the  works so I
>>>>>>>>finished it up and got it in the car.  The new one is a 5.0L
>>>>>>>>Porsche v8, '87 big dish pistons,  16 valve ported & extrude
>>>>>>>>honed heads all adding up to about 8.5:1 cr,   bigger cams,
>>>>>>>>bigger throttle body,
>>>>>>>bigger   exhaust.  It ran pretty good for about 2 days,  good
>>>>>>>enough to set me  back in my seat and put a grin on my
>>>>>>>face,  then it all went to he!! again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I've swapped ECUs, ignition modules, plugs, cap & rotor, been
>>>>>>>>through all the plug wires with an ohmmeter, wrung out the
>>>>>>>>wiring harness from the sensors to the ECU.  I'm getting
>>>>>>>>fuel,  I can hear all the injectors clicking,  and have 43 lbs
>>>>>>>>of fuel pressure.   The REF
>>>>>>signal from  the distributor makes it through the ignition
>>>>>>module to the ecu and the ecu is putting out EST pulses,
>>>>>>verified by o'scope.  #1 is firing at TDC with bypass
>>>>>>unplugged.  Everything is great,  it just won't start.
>>>>>>>>>Tonight we checked the cam timing and retensioned the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>timing belt.
>>>>>>>  I've  been through all the basics I can think of, all is good
>>>>>>> but no fire in the hole. I've reverted to my last known good
>>>>>>> bin while doing all this testing. The only weird thing I can
>>>>>>> put my finger on is with spark.  I move my inductive timing
>>>>>>> light from wire to wire checking for spark on all  8.
>>>>>>>>I'll find one not firing (it changes some times),  pull the
>>>>>>>>wire off the spark plug,  insert another spark plug in the
>>>>>>>>wire and ground the tip on  the block and it will fire,  the
>>>>>>>>timing light will light up.  Move the wire back to the plug in
>>>>>>>>the block and it won't fire.  Pull the plug from the
>>>>>>>>block,  put it in the plug wire and ground the electrode  on
>>>>>>>>the block and it will fire again.  WTF???  This is driving me
>>>>>>>>nuts.  I've pulled one plug wire off 3 times to check
>>>>>>>>resistance, wiggled both ends and the whole wire looking for
>>>>>>>>an intermittent break,  everything  is great,  3.1k ohms per spec.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'm running out of ideas.  Anyone have a thought??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Bill
>>>>>>>>928s 5.0L Vortech/749
>>_______________________________________________
>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:45:29 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Message-ID: <290594.46964.qm at web50311.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> --- Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the
>> problem.  It will
>> start and run now but is still dropping spark
>> intermittently in a couple
>> of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module
>> to fire the coil are
>> nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the
>> timing light on a couple
>> of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's
>> starting to look like
>> something in the distributor now,  but I can't
>> imagine what.
>
> How many miles on the car? Could be worn bearings or
> bushings in the distributor or a worn shaft or
> possibly even the drive gear.
>
> With the cap and rotor off, you shouldn't be able to
> move the shaft up and down or rotate it more than a
> tiny amount. Try wobbling it sideways too.
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 09:02:14 -0500
> From: <don.broadus at exeloncorp.com>
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] 928/749
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Message-ID:
> <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F948660D0 at CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I read in circle track awhile back that it helps to ground the cylinder 
> heads to the block or battery with a good ground strap. The head bolts 
> going into the block having thread sealant on them don't give a good 
> ground for the plugs.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of Gregg Eshelman
> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:45 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>
>
> --- Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the
>> problem.  It will
>> start and run now but is still dropping spark
>> intermittently in a couple
>> of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module
>> to fire the coil are
>> nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the
>> timing light on a couple
>> of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's
>> starting to look like
>> something in the distributor now,  but I can't
>> imagine what.
>
> How many miles on the car? Could be worn bearings or
> bushings in the distributor or a worn shaft or
> possibly even the drive gear.
>
> With the cap and rotor off, you shouldn't be able to
> move the shaft up and down or rotate it more than a
> tiny amount. Try wobbling it sideways too.
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
> -----------------------------------------
> **************************************************
> This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
> Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
> confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
> Corporation family of Companies.
> This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
> entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
> recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
> to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
> prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
> in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
> delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
> Thank You.
> **************************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:19:14 +0800
> From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] 928/749
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070821221748.027991c0 at iinet.net.au>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> At 10:02 PM 8/21/07, you wrote:
>>I read in circle track awhile back that it helps to ground the cylinder 
>>heads to the block or battery with a good ground strap. The head bolts 
>>going into the block having thread sealant on them don't give a good 
>>ground for the plugs.
>
> Ah ha, that prob explains why the two small screws are used on the RB30
> head even though there are head to block locating collars in various 
> places...
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:15:31 +0000
> From: b.shaw at comcast.net
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] 928/749
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Message-ID:
> <082120071515.14423.46CB019300024CAC000038572206999735990E089CD20D at comcast.net>
>
>
> Interesting....  There are a pair of grounds in teh injector harness on 
> the passanger's side head but no grounds on the driver's side,  which is 
> where I'm having the trouble.  That's definately worth a shot.
>
> Bill
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: <don.broadus at exeloncorp.com>
>> I read in circle track awhile back that it helps to ground the cylinder 
>> heads to
>> the block or battery with a good ground strap. The head bolts going into 
>> the
>> block having thread sealant on them don't give a good ground for the 
>> plugs.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
>> Behalf Of Gregg Eshelman
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 1:45 AM
>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] 928/749
>>
>>
>> --- Bill Shaw <b.shaw at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Well,  a new coil helped some but didn't cure the
>> > problem.  It will
>> > start and run now but is still dropping spark
>> > intermittently in a couple
>> > of cylinders.  The pulses from the ignition module
>> > to fire the coil are
>> > nice and steady,  don't miss a beat.  Using the
>> > timing light on a couple
>> > of the plug wires shows erratic firing. It's
>> > starting to look like
>> > something in the distributor now,  but I can't
>> > imagine what.
>>
>> How many miles on the car? Could be worn bearings or
>> bushings in the distributor or a worn shaft or
>> possibly even the drive gear.
>>
>> With the cap and rotor off, you shouldn't be able to
>> move the shaft up and down or rotate it more than a
>> tiny amount. Try wobbling it sideways too.
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________________
>> ____
>> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
>> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>> -----------------------------------------
>> **************************************************
>> This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
>> Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
>> confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
>> Corporation family of Companies.
>> This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
>> entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
>> recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
>> dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
>> to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
>> prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
>> in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
>> delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
>> Thank You.
>> **************************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>
>
> End of Diy_efi Digest, Vol 30, Issue 6
> ************************************** 



From clair.davis at charter.net  Sun Aug 26 14:00:08 2007
From: clair.davis at charter.net (Clair Davis)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 14:00:08 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
Message-ID: <004901c7e813$5247ac40$03000004@davis>

Been a while since I had anything to add or ask regarding my Mopar/GM hybrid
EFI setup... life caught up with me in spite of my best efforts.  However,
in trying to get the momentum going again, I stirred up yet another project
for myself - adapting a 2001 Camaro Z-28 (LS-1) fuel tank to my Plymouth.

Now before you start laughing, they are closer in physical appearance than
you'd think off the top of your head, once you turn the GM tank around
backwards from it's natural orientation in the Camaro.  It's a plastic tank,
which I like from a zero rust standpoint, and the fuel pump (my real
concern) is a thing of beauty from a performance & packaging standpoint.
The pump assembly includes a built-in swirl pot that collects return fuel
from the regulator (which is part of the pump ass'y), and it also includes a
"jet" that uses a venturi-effect to fill the pot when the fuel level is
below the top of the pot.  This should all but eliminate my need for the
separate surge tank and lift pump setup I have now, so I'm looking at ways
to get this pump ass'y in to my car.

Issue 1) the Z-28 tank is obviously not shaped JUST LIKE my Plymouth A-body
tank.  The Plymouth tank is left-hand fill, and has a huge cut-out to fit
around the spare tire well under the trunk floor pan.  The Plymouth tank is
situated between the rear axle and the spare tire well.  To make the plastic
Z-28 tank fit, I'll have to sacrifice part of my spare tire well, which I
could live with.  The more difficult part will be setting up the left hand
fill to reach the right hand side of the tank, or converting the car to
right hand fill.  I'm less inclined to convert the car to right hand fill.

Anyone have a resource for various DIA's and bends of fuel filler hose?

Issue 2) The Plymouth tank is essentially the perfect depth to adapt the
Z-28 pump, but only if I can find the correct lock ring base to weld in.
The lock ring has an ID of 3.5", and the pump gasket has an ID of 4.125" and
an OD of 4.5"  If I can find a steel GM tank that uses this size of pump
bulkhead, I can cut that part out and weld it in to my Plymouth tank
relatively easily.  Naturally, you'd think that a steel tank from a Z-28
would do the trick, but the steel tanks appear to have the swirl pot built
in to the floor of the tank, not the pump like the 99+ LS-1 Camaros did.

Anyone out there know of a similarly-sized pump bulkhead that might do what
I need?

Any other ideas or comments are welcome as well, as I'm obviously not locked
in to either of these options, just wanting to use the particular pump
somehow is the goal.

Thanks in advance,

Clair
69 Valiant 7730MPI
Fort Worth, TX




From galaxiecustom500 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 26 16:45:28 2007
From: galaxiecustom500 at yahoo.com (J M)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 14:45:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <004901c7e813$5247ac40$03000004@davis>
Message-ID: <261014.74980.qm@web57302.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Replies after original text:

> Anyone have a resource for various DIA's and bends
> of fuel filler hose?

I did a little internet searching, didn't find much
that would help. As far as someone selling pre formed
hoses.  You can buy polyethylene tubes from McMaster
(what the gas tank is made from) It's a thermo plastic
so you should be able to heat it to bend it but it
might be hard to keep it from closing off on a tight
bend.

Alternativly with a plastic welding kit you should be
able to add a fuel fill bung on the other side of the
tank.  Actually the tank material is likely more then
thick enough that a brass fitting would be able to
thread in.  Then get a short piece of viton hose to
connect that fitting to your stock filler neck.


> 
> Issue 2) The Plymouth tank is essentially the
> perfect depth to adapt the
> Z-28 pump, but only if I can find the correct lock
> ring base to weld in.
> The lock ring has an ID of 3.5", and the pump gasket
> has an ID of 4.125" and
> an OD of 4.5"  If I can find a steel GM tank that
> uses this size of pump
> bulkhead, I can cut that part out and weld it in to
> my Plymouth tank
> relatively easily.  Naturally, you'd think that a
> steel tank from a Z-28
> would do the trick, but the steel tanks appear to
> have the swirl pot built
> in to the floor of the tank, not the pump like the
> 99+ LS-1 Camaros did.
> 
> Anyone out there know of a similarly-sized pump
> bulkhead that might do what
> I need?

I've never measured, but that sounds similar to the
tank opening from a 80's caprice.  Probably about
everything GM in the 80's as well.

Also you could probably just make one.  The lock ring
method might be hard to fabricate on your own, but a
studed fitting would be easier.  The later
caprices/impalas had one.  Had studes in the tank, the
sending unit was sandwhiched between the tank and a
metal ring.

Another alternative, if you have a realatively flat
area on that plymouth tank where you could cut out the
sending unit bulkhead from the camaro tank, get some
viton or polyethylene sheet to make a gasket and then
bolt the plastic part down to the plymouth tank. 
Maybe weld a flat panel to the top of the tank?  As
for the viton gasket, you could also use the black
rubber/fiber material most parts stores have as long
as it's not in constant contact with gasoline.

Not that familiar with the car you are working on but
to me the best option sounds like using the camaro
tank, loosing a bit of spare tire well, and making a
new fuel filler bung on the tank for the stock filler
neck.

good luck,

Jason.




       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC


From clair.davis at charter.net  Sun Aug 26 22:21:03 2007
From: clair.davis at charter.net (Clair Davis)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 22:21:03 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
References: <261014.74980.qm@web57302.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001901c7e859$4c870940$03000004@davis>

Jason,
I've done a LOT of searching without much luck, either.  I believe you're
right that there are tanks out there with large openings as well, I remember
looking at some for the little baffle structures inside long before I found
this tank.  Now to try to find what those tanks were...

The tank material is at least 1/8" thick, probably closer to 1/4" or so.  It
appears to be two layers, a black outer layer, and a light gray or white
inner layer.  Not sure what that means in respect to its ability to be
plastic welded.  I like the idea of adding a brass fitting... is that also a
McMaster item?  To be honest, I can't think of a brass fitting I've seen
that was at least 1" ID - the size of the GM fill pipe hose stub that's
still on the tank.  Finding the spot on the tank that will let that happen
is another thing.  I'll need to hang the tank in place and see where it
falls under the existing fuel filler tube hole in the trunk floor.

I took a couple photos of the tanks in question, and I'll try to upload them
to my web site shortly.  That way I can add a link to see what the situation
is.

Thanks for the reply and alternatives!

Clair


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J M" <galaxiecustom500 at yahoo.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options


> Replies after original text:
>
> > Anyone have a resource for various DIA's and bends
> > of fuel filler hose?
>
> I did a little internet searching, didn't find much
> that would help. As far as someone selling pre formed
> hoses.  You can buy polyethylene tubes from McMaster
> (what the gas tank is made from) It's a thermo plastic
> so you should be able to heat it to bend it but it
> might be hard to keep it from closing off on a tight
> bend.
>
> Alternativly with a plastic welding kit you should be
> able to add a fuel fill bung on the other side of the
> tank.  Actually the tank material is likely more then
> thick enough that a brass fitting would be able to
> thread in.  Then get a short piece of viton hose to
> connect that fitting to your stock filler neck.
>
>
> >
> > Issue 2) The Plymouth tank is essentially the
> > perfect depth to adapt the
> > Z-28 pump, but only if I can find the correct lock
> > ring base to weld in.
> > The lock ring has an ID of 3.5", and the pump gasket
> > has an ID of 4.125" and
> > an OD of 4.5"  If I can find a steel GM tank that
> > uses this size of pump
> > bulkhead, I can cut that part out and weld it in to
> > my Plymouth tank
> > relatively easily.  Naturally, you'd think that a
> > steel tank from a Z-28
> > would do the trick, but the steel tanks appear to
> > have the swirl pot built
> > in to the floor of the tank, not the pump like the
> > 99+ LS-1 Camaros did.
> >
> > Anyone out there know of a similarly-sized pump
> > bulkhead that might do what
> > I need?
>
> I've never measured, but that sounds similar to the
> tank opening from a 80's caprice.  Probably about
> everything GM in the 80's as well.
>
> Also you could probably just make one.  The lock ring
> method might be hard to fabricate on your own, but a
> studed fitting would be easier.  The later
> caprices/impalas had one.  Had studes in the tank, the
> sending unit was sandwhiched between the tank and a
> metal ring.
>
> Another alternative, if you have a realatively flat
> area on that plymouth tank where you could cut out the
> sending unit bulkhead from the camaro tank, get some
> viton or polyethylene sheet to make a gasket and then
> bolt the plastic part down to the plymouth tank.
> Maybe weld a flat panel to the top of the tank?  As
> for the viton gasket, you could also use the black
> rubber/fiber material most parts stores have as long
> as it's not in constant contact with gasoline.
>
> Not that familiar with the car you are working on but
> to me the best option sounds like using the camaro
> tank, loosing a bit of spare tire well, and making a
> new fuel filler bung on the tank for the stock filler
> neck.
>
> good luck,
>
> Jason.
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail,
news, photos & more.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>




From galaxiecustom500 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 27 01:03:04 2007
From: galaxiecustom500 at yahoo.com (J M)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 23:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <001901c7e859$4c870940$03000004@davis>
Message-ID: <176979.46928.qm@web57308.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

That would be plenty thick enough.  

For the fitting mcmaster part number 9580K35.  Could
probably find a similar item at any TSC, Lowes, home
Depot, local hardware store with a decent selection of
plumbing supplies.

Couple other options pn 2808K45	 or 2808K46 barbed
fittings made of polyethylene.

All the plastic tanks I've seen inside were just black
like the outside.  Just from early/mid 90's caprices,
and a '84 dodge van.

My guess would be some variation of "Teflon."  Some of
the newer fuel hoses use it as a layer to help keep
gasoline fumes in for lower emissions.  Usually a
viton core, steel or nylon braid, teflon, then an
outer rubber jacket.

Don't remember what model plymouth you were working
on.  If it has the spare tire well in the middle of
the trunk floor... Maybe just take the spare tire well
out alltogether, put in a flat load floor, then get a
caprice/impala gas tank.  The filler neck is in the
middle behind the license plate.  Would probably need
to add a little filler neck tunnel at the back of the
trunk.  But you'd be able to delete the gas door on
the side of the car.

I do have some pictures of the caprice tank's sending
unit opening, no measurements though.  Again 3.5 or so
inch opening sounds about right maybe the camaro
sending unit would drop right in.  Or a little more
work and you could put the camaro pump on the caprice
sending unit.  Just trying to make more work for you,
haha.

Jason

checkout: http://buckeyebullet2.blogspot.com/


--- Clair Davis <clair.davis at charter.net> wrote:

> Jason,
> I've done a LOT of searching without much luck,
> either.  I believe you're
> right that there are tanks out there with large
> openings as well, I remember
> looking at some for the little baffle structures
> inside long before I found
> this tank.  Now to try to find what those tanks
> were...
> 
> The tank material is at least 1/8" thick, probably
> closer to 1/4" or so.  It
> appears to be two layers, a black outer layer, and a
> light gray or white
> inner layer.  Not sure what that means in respect to
> its ability to be
> plastic welded.  I like the idea of adding a brass
> fitting... is that also a
> McMaster item?  To be honest, I can't think of a
> brass fitting I've seen
> that was at least 1" ID - the size of the GM fill
> pipe hose stub that's
> still on the tank.  Finding the spot on the tank
> that will let that happen
> is another thing.  I'll need to hang the tank in
> place and see where it
> falls under the existing fuel filler tube hole in
> the trunk floor.
> 
> I took a couple photos of the tanks in question, and
> I'll try to upload them
> to my web site shortly.  That way I can add a link
> to see what the situation
> is.
> 
> Thanks for the reply and alternatives!
> 
> Clair
> 
> 
> 


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  Join our Network Research Panel today!   http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 




From sc7500 at sonic.net  Tue Aug 28 00:09:23 2007
From: sc7500 at sonic.net (sc7500)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 22:09:23 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <261014.74980.qm@web57302.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <261014.74980.qm@web57302.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46D3AE03.5010003@sonic.net>

Anyone have a resource for various DIA's and bends of fuel filler hose?
>
> You can buy polyethylene tubes from McMaster
> (what the gas tank is made from) It's a thermo plastic
> so you should be able to heat it to bend it but it
> might be hard to keep it from closing off on a tight
> bend.
>   
An old timey trick that has never failed me is to fill plastic tubing 
with clean sand BEFORE heating and bending ~ it doesn't collapse.

BTW, this also works for making thin wall exhaust tubing bends with 
those cheap Harbor Freight "pipe benders"...

SC


From ebuckler at icehouse.net  Tue Aug 28 00:17:48 2007
From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 22:17:48 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
References: <261014.74980.qm@web57302.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<46D3AE03.5010003@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <000401c7e932$c6907120$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>

Gotta plug the ends real solidly to keep sand from shifting - on steel 
y'weld caps on.  And, major caution if yer gonna use heat - sand has to be 
DRY DRY DRY, otherwise you got yerself a steam bomb, plenty 
shrapnel-capable.

Ernie B.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "sc7500" <sc7500 at sonic.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options


> Anyone have a resource for various DIA's and bends of fuel filler hose?
>>
>> You can buy polyethylene tubes from McMaster
>> (what the gas tank is made from) It's a thermo plastic
>> so you should be able to heat it to bend it but it
>> might be hard to keep it from closing off on a tight
>> bend.
>>
> An old timey trick that has never failed me is to fill plastic tubing with 
> clean sand BEFORE heating and bending ~ it doesn't collapse.
>
> BTW, this also works for making thin wall exhaust tubing bends with those 
> cheap Harbor Freight "pipe benders"...
>
> SC
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 
> 269.12.9/975 - Release Date: 8/26/2007 9:34 PM
>
> 



From clair.davis at charter.net  Tue Aug 28 06:57:43 2007
From: clair.davis at charter.net (Clair Davis)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 06:57:43 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
References: <261014.74980.qm@web57302.mail.re1.yahoo.com><46D3AE03.5010003@sonic.net>
	<000401c7e932$c6907120$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
Message-ID: <001401c7e96a$a4522300$03000004@davis>

Hmm... interesting.  I hadn't really thought about bending the plastic pipe,
just using it for the straight runs with formed
rubber/silicone/neoprene/whatever hose bits to make the turns.  That might
give me some options on how to handle things, though.

With regard to the brass or polyethylene fittings, should I tap threads in
to the tank before installing, or will the fittings cut their own threads
and seal better that way?  I can see how the brass MIGHT cut it's own
threads, but I'm guessing the poly fittings need threads to even start.  I'm
guessing the pipe thread will be sufficient in sealing itself, correct?
Would it be possible, or even necessary, to do a bit of plastic welding on
the poly fitting to make it that much of a tighter fit?

Thanks for the ideas, folks...

Clair


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ernest Buckler" <ebuckler at icehouse.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options


> Gotta plug the ends real solidly to keep sand from shifting - on steel
> y'weld caps on.  And, major caution if yer gonna use heat - sand has to be
> DRY DRY DRY, otherwise you got yerself a steam bomb, plenty
> shrapnel-capable.
>
> Ernie B.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "sc7500" <sc7500 at sonic.net>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 10:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
>
>
> > Anyone have a resource for various DIA's and bends of fuel filler hose?
> >>
> >> You can buy polyethylene tubes from McMaster
> >> (what the gas tank is made from) It's a thermo plastic
> >> so you should be able to heat it to bend it but it
> >> might be hard to keep it from closing off on a tight
> >> bend.
> >>
> > An old timey trick that has never failed me is to fill plastic tubing
with
> > clean sand BEFORE heating and bending ~ it doesn't collapse.
> >
> > BTW, this also works for making thin wall exhaust tubing bends with
those
> > cheap Harbor Freight "pipe benders"...
> >
> > SC
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database:
> > 269.12.9/975 - Release Date: 8/26/2007 9:34 PM
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>




From galaxiecustom500 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 28 08:30:57 2007
From: galaxiecustom500 at yahoo.com (J M)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 06:30:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <001401c7e96a$a4522300$03000004@davis>
Message-ID: <572505.3398.qm@web57312.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

I hadn't thought about the plastic fittings and
threading.  Being the same material they might not cut
threads.  If the tank was made out of thinner material
they would "cut" threads.

With a metal fitting you could just cut a hole and
thread the fitting in.  It should have an adequate
seal but using something like JB weld around the
outside just to make sure wouldn't hurt.

I kind of like the idea of bending plastic pipe with
sand in it.  If for no other reason then trying it to
see how it works.


--- Clair Davis <clair.davis at charter.net> wrote:

> Hmm... interesting.  I hadn't really thought about
> bending the plastic pipe,
> just using it for the straight runs with formed
> rubber/silicone/neoprene/whatever hose bits to make
> the turns.  That might
> give me some options on how to handle things,
> though.
> 
> With regard to the brass or polyethylene fittings,
> should I tap threads in
> to the tank before installing, or will the fittings
> cut their own threads
> and seal better that way?  I can see how the brass
> MIGHT cut it's own
> threads, but I'm guessing the poly fittings need
> threads to even start.  I'm
> guessing the pipe thread will be sufficient in
> sealing itself, correct?
> Would it be possible, or even necessary, to do a bit
> of plastic welding on
> the poly fitting to make it that much of a tighter
> fit?
> 
> Thanks for the ideas, folks...
> 
> Clair
> 
>


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC


From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Tue Aug 28 19:01:13 2007
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:01:13 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 30, Issue 9
In-Reply-To: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au>
References: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au>
Message-ID: <46D4B749.3070508@nec.com.au>

Clair,
    In adding any fittings to the fuel tank the most important thing is 
ya just gotta have a perfect seal!
... Obvious I know, but fuel tanks, lines and couplings I am very wary 
of and careful with! ... fuel leaks are no laughing matter, be careful!
I would tend as far as possible to use a "belt and braces" approach to 
any such mods, and not rely on a single sealing method .....

Regards
Bill
>
>
> Hmm... interesting.  I hadn't really thought about bending the plastic pipe,
> just using it for the straight runs with formed
> rubber/silicone/neoprene/whatever hose bits to make the turns.  That might
> give me some options on how to handle things, though.
>
> With regard to the brass or polyethylene fittings, should I tap threads in
> to the tank before installing, or will the fittings cut their own threads
> and seal better that way?  I can see how the brass MIGHT cut it's own
> threads, but I'm guessing the poly fittings need threads to even start.  I'm
> guessing the pipe thread will be sufficient in sealing itself, correct?
> Would it be possible, or even necessary, to do a bit of plastic welding on
> the poly fitting to make it that much of a tighter fit?
>
> Thanks for the ideas, folks...
>
> Clair
>
>   
> man/listinfo/diy_efi
>   


From ebuckler at icehouse.net  Tue Aug 28 21:30:25 2007
From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:30:25 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
References: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au>
	<46D4B749.3070508@nec.com.au>
Message-ID: <005e01c7e9e4$8e8e8a70$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>

Gents, Bill, Clair,
May I suggest that grabbing a plastic tank or two or three from a salvage 
yard should give you plenty of material to cut and glue and drill and tap 
and experiment with?  Perhaps these techniques ARE known somewhere on the 
planet, but maybe for here and now the best thing would be to break new 
ground and figure out what works and what doesn't?  Talk to some hi-tech 
adhesive people, tell them what you're doing, go with their recco?   Just a 
thought.   BTW, why NOT use a standard fuel-filler flex pipe?  No reason I 
can see for insisting that it be rigid plastic all the way to the cap - or 
did I miss a requirement somewhere?    [:oj
Ernest






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Washington" <bill.washington at nec.com.au>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:01 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 30, Issue 9


> Clair,
>    In adding any fittings to the fuel tank the most important thing is ya 
> just gotta have a perfect seal!
> ... Obvious I know, but fuel tanks, lines and couplings I am very wary of 
> and careful with! ... fuel leaks are no laughing matter, be careful!
> I would tend as far as possible to use a "belt and braces" approach to any 
> such mods, and not rely on a single sealing method .....
>
> Regards
> Bill
>>
>>
>> Hmm... interesting.  I hadn't really thought about bending the plastic 
>> pipe,
>> just using it for the straight runs with formed
>> rubber/silicone/neoprene/whatever hose bits to make the turns.  That 
>> might
>> give me some options on how to handle things, though.
>>
>> With regard to the brass or polyethylene fittings, should I tap threads 
>> in
>> to the tank before installing, or will the fittings cut their own threads
>> and seal better that way?  I can see how the brass MIGHT cut it's own
>> threads, but I'm guessing the poly fittings need threads to even start. 
>> I'm
>> guessing the pipe thread will be sufficient in sealing itself, correct?
>> Would it be possible, or even necessary, to do a bit of plastic welding 
>> on
>> the poly fitting to make it that much of a tighter fit?
>>
>> Thanks for the ideas, folks...
>>
>> Clair
>>
>>   man/listinfo/diy_efi
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 
> 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 8/27/2007 6:20 PM
>
> 



From sc7500 at sonic.net  Wed Aug 29 02:15:39 2007
From: sc7500 at sonic.net (sc7500)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 00:15:39 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <572505.3398.qm@web57312.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
References: <572505.3398.qm@web57312.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46D51D1B.7060600@sonic.net>


> I kind of like the idea of bending plastic pipe with sand in it.  If for no other reason than trying it to
> see how it works.
>   
ACHTUNG !!

My email got geeked this AM, but I was able to read a Critical Addendum 
to my post [sorry, I didn't get the writer's name, but thank you for the 
save !] and I concur.

The sand used as filler MUST be DRY DRY DRY before heating it inside a 
closed tube for bending; I apologize if my note omitted that info ~ a 
good chunk of data didn't get into the message hanks to my ISP's email 
dump last night.

I like a big KABOOM as well as the next DIY'er, but not at the expense 
of someone's life or limbs ~ be safe and completely dry the sand in an 
oven [if it's clean, it won't smell up the house and irk the spouse...] 
before use. Yes, you'll need to cap the ends of pipe before bending ~ I 
like to use rubber expansion plugs, as they hold well, and are easily 
removed.

Good Luck and happy bending !

-- 
SC



From buckwill33 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 29 03:56:05 2007
From: buckwill33 at hotmail.com (Buck Williams)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:56:05 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <46D51D1B.7060600@sonic.net>
References: <572505.3398.qm@web57312.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<46D51D1B.7060600@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W20C37459FE99C7D7F90D1DCECC0@phx.gbl>

if u put ahot sand in it froam the ovenn it maay make the tube hot eaobnough to bend just he way it is,,, ask your eye glasses lady how hot works,,, , i thaisnk about 250 buck

> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 00:15:39 -0700> From: sc7500 at sonic.net> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options> > > > I kind of like the idea of bending plastic pipe with sand in it. If for no other reason than trying it to> > see how it works.> > > ACHTUNG !!> > My email got geeked this AM, but I was able to read a Critical Addendum > to my post [sorry, I didn't get the writer's name, but thank you for the > save !] and I concur.> > The sand used as filler MUST be DRY DRY DRY before heating it inside a > closed tube for bending; I apologize if my note omitted that info ~ a > good chunk of data didn't get into the message hanks to my ISP's email > dump last night.> > I like a big KABOOM as well as the next DIY'er, but not at the expense > of someone's life or limbs ~ be safe and completely dry the sand in an > oven [if it's clean, it won't smell up the house and irk the spouse...] > before use. Yes, you'll need to cap the ends of pipe before bending ~ I > like to use rubber expansion plugs, as they hold well, and are easily > removed.> > Good Luck and happy bending !> > -- > SC> > _______________________________________________> Diy_efi mailing list> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From clair.davis at charter.net  Wed Aug 29 07:01:16 2007
From: clair.davis at charter.net (Clair Davis)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:01:16 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
References: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au><46D4B749.3070508@nec.com.au>
	<005e01c7e9e4$8e8e8a70$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
Message-ID: <001801c7ea34$4dfbe020$03000004@davis>

Well, I've got to admit that part of this project (the DIY part) is because
I'm trying to save some bucks.  The cost of another tank at the local
pick-a-part is about $50, if you can find one that they didn't sacrifice to
drain the gas first.  Visualize a 3" steel pipe tapered to a point,
protruding from a large metal funnel... the tanks are "drained" using a
giant forklift by piercing the tank with the steel pipe, and occasionally
the tank is scraped off the bottom of the car/truck using the forks on the
fork lift... it's not pretty.

Anyway, I would rather buy a plastic welding kit than use that money to buy
extra plastic tanks if possible.  Of course the plastic welding kit is about
the same money as a new steel tank that I could weld the appropriate lock
ring in to.  I already have a MIG in the garage.  Not that I would mind
justifying the purchase of a new tool, but I've got to be mindful of funds
at this point.

Also, I'm an OEM-kind of guy, so excuse my ignorance here, but what is
standard fuel filler flex pipe, and where can you get it?  The OEM Plymouth
filler tube is about 2" galv. steel, so I'm really only familiar with rigid
pipe and some form of rubber bits to attach the caps, etc.

Clair


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ernest Buckler" <ebuckler at icehouse.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 9:30 PM
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings


> Gents, Bill, Clair,
> May I suggest that grabbing a plastic tank or two or three from a salvage
> yard should give you plenty of material to cut and glue and drill and tap
> and experiment with?  Perhaps these techniques ARE known somewhere on the
> planet, but maybe for here and now the best thing would be to break new
> ground and figure out what works and what doesn't?  Talk to some hi-tech
> adhesive people, tell them what you're doing, go with their recco?   Just
a
> thought.   BTW, why NOT use a standard fuel-filler flex pipe?  No reason I
> can see for insisting that it be rigid plastic all the way to the cap - or
> did I miss a requirement somewhere?    [:oj
> Ernest
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bill Washington" <bill.washington at nec.com.au>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:01 PM
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 30, Issue 9
>
>
> > Clair,
> >    In adding any fittings to the fuel tank the most important thing is
ya
> > just gotta have a perfect seal!
> > ... Obvious I know, but fuel tanks, lines and couplings I am very wary
of
> > and careful with! ... fuel leaks are no laughing matter, be careful!
> > I would tend as far as possible to use a "belt and braces" approach to
any
> > such mods, and not rely on a single sealing method .....
> >
> > Regards
> > Bill
> >>
> >>
> >> Hmm... interesting.  I hadn't really thought about bending the plastic
> >> pipe,
> >> just using it for the straight runs with formed
> >> rubber/silicone/neoprene/whatever hose bits to make the turns.  That
> >> might
> >> give me some options on how to handle things, though.
> >>
> >> With regard to the brass or polyethylene fittings, should I tap threads
> >> in
> >> to the tank before installing, or will the fittings cut their own
threads
> >> and seal better that way?  I can see how the brass MIGHT cut it's own
> >> threads, but I'm guessing the poly fittings need threads to even start.
> >> I'm
> >> guessing the pipe thread will be sufficient in sealing itself, correct?
> >> Would it be possible, or even necessary, to do a bit of plastic welding
> >> on
> >> the poly fitting to make it that much of a tighter fit?
> >>
> >> Thanks for the ideas, folks...
> >>
> >> Clair
> >>
> >>   man/listinfo/diy_efi
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database:
> > 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 8/27/2007 6:20 PM
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>




From rfrey at iupui.edu  Wed Aug 29 07:48:31 2007
From: rfrey at iupui.edu (Frey, Richard K)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 08:48:31 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W20C37459FE99C7D7F90D1DCECC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0C323EFBDBDBDD4697BD0C0F2D745C52F654D5@iu-mssg-mbx101.ads.iu.edu>

Buck,

The typing is considerable better, even I noticed.  Hope the rehab
continues fruitfully.

rick

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of Buck Williams
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 4:56 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options

if u put ahot sand in it froam the ovenn it maay make the tube hot
eaobnough to bend just he way it is,,, ask your eye glasses lady how hot
works,,, , i thaisnk about 250 buck

> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 00:15:39 -0700> From: sc7500 at sonic.net> To:
diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options>
> > > I kind of like the idea of bending plastic pipe with sand in it.
If for no other reason than trying it to> > see how it works.> > >
ACHTUNG !!> > My email got geeked this AM, but I was able to read a
Critical Addendum > to my post [sorry, I didn't get the writer's name,
but thank you for the > save !] and I concur.> > The sand used as filler
MUST be DRY DRY DRY before heating it inside a > closed tube for
bending; I apologize if my note omitted that info ~ a > good chunk of
data didn't get into the message hanks to my ISP's email > dump last
night.> > I like a big KABOOM as well as the next DIY'er, but not at the
expense > of someone's life or limbs ~ be safe and completely dry the
sand in an > oven [if it's clean, it won't smell up the house and irk
the spouse...] > before use. Yes, you'll need to cap the ends of pipe
before bending ~ I > like to use rubber expansion plugs, as they hold
well, and are easily > removed.> > Good Luck and happy bending !> > -- >
SC> > _______________________________________________> Diy_efi mailing
list> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subscribe:
http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi> Main WWW page:
http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi__________________________________________
_____
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com  Wed Aug 29 08:35:26 2007
From: Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com (Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 06:35:26 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <001801c7ea34$4dfbe020$03000004@davis>
References: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au><46D4B749.3070508@nec.com.au><005e01c7e9e4$8e8e8a70$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
	<001801c7ea34$4dfbe020$03000004@davis>
Message-ID: <8846C6D2B241184780AAFD4C43D2B74B5F95C9@LIBERTY.phx.acssd.l-3com.com>

Years ago I added another "Hole" to a gas tank.  The tank was steel, but
what a friend showed me is that most are tinned.  I cut the hole out of
another steel tank with a little extra flange around it, then cut a hole
in the 2nd tank, then used a giant 200 watt electric soldering iron and
just soldered the new hole in.  Worked great, no leaks, no sparks.  I
did have a shop vacuum blowing air through it so no fumes could collect
and possibly ignite.  Just an idea to pass on.....Tim.


From ebuckler at icehouse.net  Wed Aug 29 09:25:35 2007
From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:25:35 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
References: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au><46D4B749.3070508@nec.com.au><005e01c7e9e4$8e8e8a70$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d><001801c7ea34$4dfbe020$03000004@davis>
	<8846C6D2B241184780AAFD4C43D2B74B5F95C9@LIBERTY.phx.acssd.l-3com.com>
Message-ID: <003701c7ea48$82dbdb60$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>

Tim,
BLOWING thru the fuel tank, that's the operative word, as I can easily 
imagine a vacuum pulling fumes into the vac tank and getting ignited by 
sparking commutator...ooops...
Ernie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:35 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings


Years ago I added another "Hole" to a gas tank.  The tank was steel, but
what a friend showed me is that most are tinned.  I cut the hole out of
another steel tank with a little extra flange around it, then cut a hole
in the 2nd tank, then used a giant 200 watt electric soldering iron and
just soldered the new hole in.  Worked great, no leaks, no sparks.  I
did have a shop vacuum blowing air through it so no fumes could collect
and possibly ignite.  Just an idea to pass on.....Tim.
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.12.10/976 - Release Date: 8/27/2007 
6:20 PM




From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 29 09:28:14 2007
From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:28:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
Message-ID: <437336.68432.qm@web80509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

An old-timers trick is to not use 'air' but 'exhaust' from a running engine (must be at operating temp so not running rich), as it is very inert and generally non-combustible. I've seen this done to allow a spark-welder to repair a tank safely.


----- Original Message ----
From: "Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com" <Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:35:26 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings


Years ago I added another "Hole" to a gas tank.  The tank was steel, but
what a friend showed me is that most are tinned.  I cut the hole out of
another steel tank with a little extra flange around it, then cut a hole
in the 2nd tank, then used a giant 200 watt electric soldering iron and
just soldered the new hole in.  Worked great, no leaks, no sparks.  I
did have a shop vacuum blowing air through it so no fumes could collect
and possibly ignite.  Just an idea to pass on.....Tim.
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From mediasmith at cox.net  Wed Aug 29 09:38:14 2007
From: mediasmith at cox.net (wdsmith)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 09:38:14 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <001801c7ea34$4dfbe020$03000004@davis>
References: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au><46D4B749.3070508@nec.com.au>	<005e01c7e9e4$8e8e8a70$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
	<001801c7ea34$4dfbe020$03000004@davis>
Message-ID: <46D584D6.2090203@cox.net>

I'm a bit new to this list but plastic welding and I go back a long, 
long time.
Like a lot of other things, it can be done but I haven't found it quite 
as easy as the infomercials make it look.
I don't want to discourage you but to make you aware that higher 
expectations have farther to fall.

That said, there are two basic ways to repair-weld plastic. Both require 
heat and good heat control.

One sold by Harbor Freight (and many others)  is a hot air torch.  It 
requires a supply of low pressure (around 3 psi I think) supply of 
compressed air which passes through a heating element before exiting  at 
the nozzle.  These work OK after you get the hang of it. It has limited 
heat output so initial heating is rather slow but once you get a 
"puddle" started it is not so bad. You will need a backup or the weld 
bead area will sink in the HAZ.  Material composition is important. The 
best source of filler rod is strips cut from the material you are 
joining.  The process is very similar to O/A welding aluminum without 
the flux.  The parent material must be clean and well-fitted. There is 
little visual clue to the temp of the parent material.

On a side note, I have actually used a small O/A torch to weld 
polyethylene before I bought a hot air torch. It works but you do need 
to give it your full attention.

The second method is really not much more than a small soldering iron 
with a special tip. The special tip is made of brass. It has a flat 
bottom surface shaped much like an old "sad iron."  There is a funneled 
hole on the top side which allows you to feed filler rod through the 
tip.  This type works too and, in some respects, is easier to come to 
terms with.  I have two minor complaints; (1) You are limited to 
manufactured filler material (2) The wattage is a bit low for my liking.

Now, if you have read between the lines, you are probably wondering why 
you can't just grab an old soldering iron 9or a cheap new one) and get busy?

I can't think of any reason.

I also cannot think of any reason you can't experiment on some scrap and 
later modify or make a tip to your own satisfaction.

So, as somebody once said, Give 'em hell, Herbie!  Go get your feet wet 
before spending any substantial money.

Good luck.
wds







Clair Davis wrote:
> Anyway, I would rather buy a plastic welding kit than use that money to buy
> extra plastic tanks if possible.  Of course the plastic welding kit is about
> the same money as a new steel tank that I could weld the appropriate lock
> ring in to.  I already have a MIG in the garage.  Not that I would mind
> justifying the purchase of a new tool, but I've got to be mindful of funds
> at this point.
>   



From mediasmith at cox.net  Wed Aug 29 09:46:05 2007
From: mediasmith at cox.net (wdsmith)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 09:46:05 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <437336.68432.qm@web80509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <437336.68432.qm@web80509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46D586AD.8060004@cox.net>

I've seen that trick too.
WAY too close.<G>
In fact, I was sitting on it when it went off.
That was around 1963. There was no real damage but I haven't got that 
underwear clean yet.
Actually, just a loud, scary Whoosh! but I didn't like it anyway.
Now I use a car wash on the inside and argon-CO2 MIG mix  for the purging.
I won't say that's the best way, or even a good way, but it is the best 
I've found with what I have available.


Rick McLeod wrote:
> An old-timers trick is to not use 'air' but 'exhaust' from a running engine (must be at operating temp so not running rich), as it is very inert and generally non-combustible. I've seen this done to allow a spark-welder to repair a tank safely.
>
>   



From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 29 09:46:07 2007
From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:46:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
Message-ID: <41015.52003.qm@web80512.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

My 'Weller' soldering gun has a flat tip that fits your method #2, and I've experimented some with it, but the challenge is feeding the filler. I've found best success by cutting a small bead of filler and laying it onto the gap and then 'smoothing' it into the gap by softening and melting the edges of the two pieces and the filler together.

Good luck


----- Original Message ----
From: wdsmith <mediasmith at cox.net>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 9:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings


I'm a bit new to this list but plastic welding and I go back a long, 
long time.
Like a lot of other things, it can be done but I haven't found it quite 
as easy as the infomercials make it look.
I don't want to discourage you but to make you aware that higher 
expectations have farther to fall.

That said, there are two basic ways to repair-weld plastic. Both require 
heat and good heat control.

One sold by Harbor Freight (and many others)  is a hot air torch.  It 
requires a supply of low pressure (around 3 psi I think) supply of 
compressed air which passes through a heating element before exiting  at 
the nozzle.  These work OK after you get the hang of it. It has limited 
heat output so initial heating is rather slow but once you get a 
"puddle" started it is not so bad. You will need a backup or the weld 
bead area will sink in the HAZ.  Material composition is important. The 
best source of filler rod is strips cut from the material you are 
joining.  The process is very similar to O/A welding aluminum without 
the flux.  The parent material must be clean and well-fitted. There is 
little visual clue to the temp of the parent material.

On a side note, I have actually used a small O/A torch to weld 
polyethylene before I bought a hot air torch. It works but you do need 
to give it your full attention.

The second method is really not much more than a small soldering iron 
with a special tip. The special tip is made of brass. It has a flat 
bottom surface shaped much like an old "sad iron."  There is a funneled 
hole on the top side which allows you to feed filler rod through the 
tip.  This type works too and, in some respects, is easier to come to 
terms with.  I have two minor complaints; (1) You are limited to 
manufactured filler material (2) The wattage is a bit low for my liking.

Now, if you have read between the lines, you are probably wondering why 
you can't just grab an old soldering iron 9or a cheap new one) and get busy?

I can't think of any reason.

I also cannot think of any reason you can't experiment on some scrap and 
later modify or make a tip to your own satisfaction.

So, as somebody once said, Give 'em hell, Herbie!  Go get your feet wet 
before spending any substantial money.

Good luck.
wds







Clair Davis wrote:
> Anyway, I would rather buy a plastic welding kit than use that money to buy
> extra plastic tanks if possible.  Of course the plastic welding kit is about
> the same money as a new steel tank that I could weld the appropriate lock
> ring in to.  I already have a MIG in the garage.  Not that I would mind
> justifying the purchase of a new tool, but I've got to be mindful of funds
> at this point.
>   

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com  Wed Aug 29 09:52:04 2007
From: Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com (Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:52:04 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <437336.68432.qm@web80509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <437336.68432.qm@web80509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8846C6D2B241184780AAFD4C43D2B74B5F95CD@LIBERTY.phx.acssd.l-3com.com>

When I did my gas tank modifications, I researched this quite well.
Exhaust blowing through it, or fill with water (not recommended), or use
CO2, or any other inert gas.  Since the tank was dry and aired out for
about a week, just to be sure I didn't want the shop vacuum to suck
because of the sparks of the vacuum motor.  I chose to have it blow air
into the tank to displace any hidden pocket of ignitable fumes.  I did
sniff the air coming out of the tank first, and since I didn't detect
any trace of gas smell, I figured it had to be "Safe" enough for a
non-flame electric soldering iron.
No blast, no surprises.  Another job well done....Tim. 


From kristy40505 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 29 10:22:30 2007
From: kristy40505 at yahoo.com (Kristy)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 08:22:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 30, Issue 10
Message-ID: <228020.43301.qm@web30114.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


i forgot my password so i cant sign in to the web site, could you please remove me for your mailing list 
   
  Thank you 
   

       
---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally,  mobile search that gives answers, not web links. 

From mediasmith at cox.net  Wed Aug 29 11:03:52 2007
From: mediasmith at cox.net (wdsmith)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:03:52 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <8846C6D2B241184780AAFD4C43D2B74B5F95CD@LIBERTY.phx.acssd.l-3com.com>
References: <437336.68432.qm@web80509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<8846C6D2B241184780AAFD4C43D2B74B5F95CD@LIBERTY.phx.acssd.l-3com.com>
Message-ID: <46D598E8.8050004@cox.net>

Keep in mind:
I'm old.
I scare easy.
I stay scared a long time.


I had no intention of  malice and did not intend to be critical of your 
method.. Remember, that was 45 years ago and exhaust gas was different 
then. From what I know of the difference, I'm not sure I want modern 
exhaust emissions in my gas tank.  We didn't have shop vacs in 1962. 
Then and now, I would pick that over exhaust gas and I would blow 
through the tank as you did.

Sorry if my "Stupid people trick" story about myself offended you.... 
but I had heard Letterman had success with them.





Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com wrote:
> When I did my gas tank modifications, I researched this quite well.
> Exhaust blowing through it, or fill with water (not recommended), or use
> CO2, or any other inert gas.  Since the tank was dry and aired out for
> about a week, just to be sure I didn't want the shop vacuum to suck
> because of the sparks of the vacuum motor.  I chose to have it blow air
> into the tank to displace any hidden pocket of ignitable fumes.  I did
> sniff the air coming out of the tank first, and since I didn't detect
> any trace of gas smell, I figured it had to be "Safe" enough for a
> non-flame electric soldering iron.
> No blast, no surprises.  Another job well done....Tim. 
>
>   



From mediasmith at cox.net  Wed Aug 29 11:08:11 2007
From: mediasmith at cox.net (wdsmith)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:08:11 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <41015.52003.qm@web80512.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <41015.52003.qm@web80512.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46D599EB.6030705@cox.net>

The problem I have with that is local sellers only have those available 
in a "kit" containing a lot of tips I'll never use.
My memory is too short to search the net.
My experience is similar to what you report.
I think some tip mods would help a lot but I am reluctant* to screw up 
the only tip I have at the current replacement cost.

wds
*not all of my ideas work as well on the bench as they do in my mind.




Rick McLeod wrote:
> My 'Weller' soldering gun has a flat tip that fits your method #2, and I've experimented some with it, but the challenge is feeding the filler. I've found best success by cutting a small bead of filler and laying it onto the gap and then 'smoothing' it into the gap by softening and melting the edges of the two pieces and the filler together.
>
> G



From Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com  Wed Aug 29 11:40:05 2007
From: Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com (Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 09:40:05 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <46D598E8.8050004@cox.net>
References: <437336.68432.qm@web80509.mail.mud.yahoo.com><8846C6D2B241184780AAFD4C43D2B74B5F95CD@LIBERTY.phx.acssd.l-3com.com>
	<46D598E8.8050004@cox.net>
Message-ID: <8846C6D2B241184780AAFD4C43D2B74B5F95CE@LIBERTY.phx.acssd.l-3com.com>

There was no offense taken.  Sorry if I came across that way.  I was
only chiming in with one of my "this is a similar story"
experience....Tim.



***************
I had no intention of  malice and did not intend to be critical of your 
method.. Remember, that was 45 years ago and exhaust gas was different 
then. From what I know of the difference, I'm not sure I want modern 
exhaust emissions in my gas tank.  We didn't have shop vacs in 1962. 
Then and now, I would pick that over exhaust gas and I would blow 
through the tank as you did.

Sorry if my "Stupid people trick" story about myself offended you.... 
but I had heard Letterman had success with them.


From spyro at f2s.com  Wed Aug 29 12:10:34 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:10:34 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <46D584D6.2090203@cox.net>
References: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au>
	<46D4B749.3070508@nec.com.au>
	<005e01c7e9e4$8e8e8a70$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
	<001801c7ea34$4dfbe020$03000004@davis>  <46D584D6.2090203@cox.net>
Message-ID: <1188407434.17424.2.camel@wirenth>

On Wed, 2007-08-29 at 09:38 -0500, wdsmith wrote:

> Now, if you have read between the lines, you are probably wondering why 
> you can't just grab an old soldering iron 9or a cheap new one) and get busy?
> 
> I can't think of any reason.

I would be very wary of welding plastic with a soldering iron - I've
found that you get very little penetration if you can only heat the
surfaces, and that the joints are quite brittle.

I'd be wary of using such joins on a fuel system, especially for petrol.



From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 29 12:17:51 2007
From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:17:51 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <1188407434.17424.2.camel@wirenth>
References: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au>
	<46D4B749.3070508@nec.com.au>
	<005e01c7e9e4$8e8e8a70$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
	<001801c7ea34$4dfbe020$03000004@davis>
	<46D584D6.2090203@cox.net> <1188407434.17424.2.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <ceabd3tvhr11u8i1qs16mrqq01c7mgba9c@4ax.com>

We used to weld alot of Ocean Kayak brand kayaks at a boat store i
worked for and we used a heat gun with a reducing nozzle on it. This
was the manufacturers recomended method. and they even would sell you
a kit that was just that, a heat gun with a reducing nozzle, and
strips of their particular blend of plastic.

Mike 

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:10:34 +0100, you wrote:

>On Wed, 2007-08-29 at 09:38 -0500, wdsmith wrote:
>
>> Now, if you have read between the lines, you are probably wondering why 
>> you can't just grab an old soldering iron 9or a cheap new one) and get busy?
>> 
>> I can't think of any reason.
>
>I would be very wary of welding plastic with a soldering iron - I've
>found that you get very little penetration if you can only heat the
>surfaces, and that the joints are quite brittle.
>
>I'd be wary of using such joins on a fuel system, especially for petrol.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From buckwill33 at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 29 12:20:38 2007
From: buckwill33 at hotmail.com (Buck Williams)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:20:38 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <437336.68432.qm@web80509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <437336.68432.qm@web80509.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W251BB9477A0EEE7BFA242ECECC0@phx.gbl>

if uhae a steel tank with pinole in it, u doant hae to do all that cutting welding on anoter tank, jsut use copper penny o and solder it in place, tin th hole first, tin the penny putatt the two together, meld the solder, its done, buck, i have dont e theis many times,,,, it works buck exhauset gas also workss let the engines run long enough tat thte tank is amost too hot to touoch, it will vaporize any liquid gasoline and will not leave enough in the tankkkk to burn in any way,,,also the gase eous exhauset doess not have enoaugh air in it to suppoert combustinn,,,it also doeosn nto leave any residueee to foul the tankkk,,,,,, other stories non witstandi,,, buck

> Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 07:28:14 -0700> From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org> > An old-timers trick is to not use 'air' but 'exhaust' from a running engine (must be at operating temp so not running rich), as it is very inert and generally non-combustible. I've seen this done to allow a spark-welder to repair a tank safely.> > > ----- Original Message ----> From: "Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com" <Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 8:35:26 AM> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings> > > Years ago I added another "Hole" to a gas tank. The tank was steel, but> what a friend showed me is that most are tinned. I cut the hole out of> another steel tank with a little extra flange around it, then cut a hole> in the 2nd tank, then used a giant 200 watt electric soldering iron and> just soldered the new hole in. Worked great, no leaks, no sparks. I> did have a shop vacuum blowing air through it so no fumes could collect> and possibly ignite. Just an idea to pass on.....Tim.> _______________________________________________> Diy_efi mailing list> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi> _______________________________________________> Diy_efi mailing list> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From spyro at f2s.com  Wed Aug 29 12:21:22 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:21:22 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <ceabd3tvhr11u8i1qs16mrqq01c7mgba9c@4ax.com>
References: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au>
	<46D4B749.3070508@nec.com.au>
	<005e01c7e9e4$8e8e8a70$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
	<001801c7ea34$4dfbe020$03000004@davis> <46D584D6.2090203@cox.net>
	<1188407434.17424.2.camel@wirenth>
	<ceabd3tvhr11u8i1qs16mrqq01c7mgba9c@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1188408082.17424.3.camel@wirenth>

On Wed, 2007-08-29 at 10:17 -0700, Mike Yates wrote:
> We used to weld alot of Ocean Kayak brand kayaks at a boat store i
> worked for and we used a heat gun with a reducing nozzle on it. This
> was the manufacturers recomended method. and they even would sell you
> a kit that was just that, a heat gun with a reducing nozzle, and
> strips of their particular blend of plastic. 

Oh, I dont doubt it can be done - just suggesting some caution. I'd
*definately be trying to source some scrap tanks with similar material
to practice on and test the procedure for good quality repeatable joins.



From 9jim30 at charter.net  Wed Aug 29 12:24:14 2007
From: 9jim30 at charter.net (James Panter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:24:14 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
References: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au><46D4B749.3070508@nec.com.au><005e01c7e9e4$8e8e8a70$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d><001801c7ea34$4dfbe020$03000004@davis><46D584D6.2090203@cox.net>
	<1188407434.17424.2.camel@wirenth>
	<ceabd3tvhr11u8i1qs16mrqq01c7mgba9c@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <007201c7ea61$6cfbff50$6401a8c0@COMPY>

No matter what source of heat you use the bonding plastic must be compatible 
with the plastic being bonded.  Getting the right material gets to be the 
tricky part.            Jim

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Yates" <tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings


We used to weld alot of Ocean Kayak brand kayaks at a boat store i
worked for and we used a heat gun with a reducing nozzle on it. This
was the manufacturers recomended method. and they even would sell you
a kit that was just that, a heat gun with a reducing nozzle, and
strips of their particular blend of plastic.

Mike

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:10:34 +0100, you wrote:

>On Wed, 2007-08-29 at 09:38 -0500, wdsmith wrote:
>
>> Now, if you have read between the lines, you are probably wondering why
>> you can't just grab an old soldering iron 9or a cheap new one) and get 
>> busy?
>>
>> I can't think of any reason.
>
>I would be very wary of welding plastic with a soldering iron - I've
>found that you get very little penetration if you can only heat the
>surfaces, and that the joints are quite brittle.
>
>I'd be wary of using such joins on a fuel system, especially for petrol.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi




From mediasmith at cox.net  Wed Aug 29 13:18:29 2007
From: mediasmith at cox.net (wdsmith)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:18:29 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <8846C6D2B241184780AAFD4C43D2B74B5F95CE@LIBERTY.phx.acssd.l-3com.com>
References: <437336.68432.qm@web80509.mail.mud.yahoo.com><8846C6D2B241184780AAFD4C43D2B74B5F95CD@LIBERTY.phx.acssd.l-3com.com>	<46D598E8.8050004@cox.net>
	<8846C6D2B241184780AAFD4C43D2B74B5F95CE@LIBERTY.phx.acssd.l-3com.com>
Message-ID: <46D5B875.7000302@cox.net>

Great!!!!!
Now, to set the record even straighter,
I am not fond of net nannies and...
I will be one of the last to criticize or make fun of anybody unless I 
have known them a very long time and know them very well.
I may do something that makes your jaw drop while you beat feet for the 
nearest bunker. It may sound totally insane to you but, in my situation, 
personal ability, research, advice, investigation, shop equipment and 
200 other things you know nothing about, it MIGHT be the proper thing to 
do. That is to to say I'm right so much as to say you don't know my full 
story and conversely, who am I to know yours.
A black and white world would be nice but we don't live in one.
So, If anybody thins I said something negative about THEM, please 
re-read what I said.
It is probably a misunderstanding.
If it is negative, it is sure to be about me or some object rather than 
a person.
Email conversations make it very easy to convey the wrong thought and 
local differences don't help. 
A word or phrase commonly mis-used here may mean something entirely 
different on the other side of the river or mountains.... or border.
Now, as the guys (way) down south say,
Good on ya, mates!



Tim.VanSetten at l-3com.com wrote:
> There was no offense taken.  Sorry if I came across that way.  I was
> only chiming in with one of my "this is a similar story"
> experience....Tim.
>
>
>
> ***************
> I had no intention of  malice and did not intend to be critical of your 
> method.. Remember, that was 45 years ago and exhaust gas was different 
> then. From what I know of the difference, I'm not sure I want modern 
> exhaust emissions in my gas tank.  We didn't have shop vacs in 1962. 
> Then and now, I would pick that over exhaust gas and I would blow 
> through the tank as you did.
>
> Sorry if my "Stupid people trick" story about myself offended you.... 
> but I had heard Letterman had success with them.
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>
>   



From mediasmith at cox.net  Wed Aug 29 13:29:47 2007
From: mediasmith at cox.net (wdsmith)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:29:47 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel tank fittings
In-Reply-To: <1188407434.17424.2.camel@wirenth>
References: <20070828170012.591127FC83@ns2.nec.com.au>	<46D4B749.3070508@nec.com.au>	<005e01c7e9e4$8e8e8a70$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>	<001801c7ea34$4dfbe020$03000004@davis>
	<46D584D6.2090203@cox.net> <1188407434.17424.2.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <46D5BB1B.7030501@cox.net>

Right in many cases.
It depends on the plastic. Some are not at all receptive, some are a bit 
reluctant and others almost make it seem easy.
I often think a Ph.D. in materials science would be a big help.
One thing I didn't mention is all plastics that are receptive should be 
"Veed" to full thickness  because of the problems you mention.
I'm guessing here but maybe the commercial units use such a small iron 
is to slow down the progress giving the HAZ more time to widen?????

Double right on being wary while working on a potential future bomb.
I'm not familiar with plastic automotive tanks. 
Some of us po' folk still drive an old Chevy truck with side saddle 
steel tanks.
And, yes, I am careful about cross traffic.<G>

ian wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-08-29 at 09:38 -0500, wdsmith wrote:
>
>   
>> Now, if you have read between the lines, you are probably wondering why 
>> you can't just grab an old soldering iron 9or a cheap new one) and get busy?
>>
>> I can't think of any reason.
>>     
>
> I would be very wary of welding plastic with a soldering iron - I've
> found that you get very little penetration if you can only heat the
> surfaces, and that the joints are quite brittle.
>
> I'd be wary of using such joins on a fuel system, especially for petrol.
>
>   



From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 29 15:09:50 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:09:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <001401c7e96a$a4522300$03000004@davis>
Message-ID: <154304.96844.qm@web50302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Clair Davis <clair.davis at charter.net> wrote:
<clip>
> Would it be possible, or even necessary, to do a bit
> of plastic welding on
> the poly fitting to make it that much of a tighter
> fit?

Fittings on rotationally molded tanks are attached by
first cutting a hole then spin welding the fitting.

The fitting is held in a chuck attached to a motor,
then pressed against the tank and spun until friction
melts a bit of the fitting and tank.

Try some experiments on a junk tank to see what'll
work. A Yahoo search for spin welding plastic turnes
up lots of info.


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/


From 9jim30 at charter.net  Wed Aug 29 15:17:32 2007
From: 9jim30 at charter.net (James Panter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:17:32 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
References: <154304.96844.qm@web50302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009d01c7ea79$a2da33e0$6401a8c0@COMPY>

Sometimes bearings friction weld to a shaft by mistake ---WHOOPS!!!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregg Eshelman" <g_alan_e at yahoo.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options


> --- Clair Davis <clair.davis at charter.net> wrote:
> <clip>
>> Would it be possible, or even necessary, to do a bit
>> of plastic welding on
>> the poly fitting to make it that much of a tighter
>> fit?
>
> Fittings on rotationally molded tanks are attached by
> first cutting a hole then spin welding the fitting.
>
> The fitting is held in a chuck attached to a motor,
> then pressed against the tank and spun until friction
> melts a bit of the fitting and tank.
>
> Try some experiments on a junk tank to see what'll
> work. A Yahoo search for spin welding plastic turnes
> up lots of info.
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car 
> Finder tool.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 




From 9jim30 at charter.net  Wed Aug 29 15:33:00 2007
From: 9jim30 at charter.net (James Panter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:33:00 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
References: <154304.96844.qm@web50302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00b201c7ea7b$cbda5930$6401a8c0@COMPY>

This subject is going on and on.  If a sincere effort is being made to weld 
plastic then it's a common practice with body shops and the information is 
readily available on the internet.  The varous families of 
plastics--Polyurethand, Polypropylend, Polyethylene, Polycarbonates, Nylon, 
and ABS (Acrylonnitrile Butadiene Stryene) all have specific rods to weld 
the material.  Using the original parent material may not work because it is 
not virgin material.  In some cases it will work but not in all cases.  To 
weld it properly, identify the material, get some new welding rod, and melt 
it to the proper temperature.  Of course, all good welding practices 
apply---grooving, cleaning, etc.
Jim
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregg Eshelman" <g_alan_e at yahoo.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options


> --- Clair Davis <clair.davis at charter.net> wrote:
> <clip>
>> Would it be possible, or even necessary, to do a bit
>> of plastic welding on
>> the poly fitting to make it that much of a tighter
>> fit?
>
> Fittings on rotationally molded tanks are attached by
> first cutting a hole then spin welding the fitting.
>
> The fitting is held in a chuck attached to a motor,
> then pressed against the tank and spun until friction
> melts a bit of the fitting and tank.
>
> Try some experiments on a junk tank to see what'll
> work. A Yahoo search for spin welding plastic turnes
> up lots of info.
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car 
> Finder tool.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 




From mediasmith at cox.net  Wed Aug 29 18:59:21 2007
From: mediasmith at cox.net (wdsmith)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:59:21 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <009d01c7ea79$a2da33e0$6401a8c0@COMPY>
References: <154304.96844.qm@web50302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<009d01c7ea79$a2da33e0$6401a8c0@COMPY>
Message-ID: <46D60859.9090703@cox.net>

I started to say I've done a lot of that but never on purpose and seldom 
on plastic.

James Panter wrote:
> Sometimes bearings friction weld to a shaft by mistake ---WHOOPS!!!



From clair.davis at charter.net  Wed Aug 29 22:20:34 2007
From: clair.davis at charter.net (Clair Davis)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:20:34 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
References: <154304.96844.qm@web50302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<00b201c7ea7b$cbda5930$6401a8c0@COMPY>
Message-ID: <008c01c7eab4$baf0bae0$03000004@davis>

Wow, this idea has got some legs, at least with respect to discussing the
options out there.  Great stuff!

To be honest, I hadn't considered welding on the plastic tank until adding a
fitting somewhere other than the stock filler location started to seem
reasonable.  I would like whatever changes I made to the tank to be
abso-friggin-lutely STUCK, and stay that way in case something strange or
unfortunate happened.  Plus, since I'll occasionally be racing this car in
autoX competitions, I don't want anything TOO strange to upset the tech
inspectors.  Clearly, I've got some homework ahead of me before I delve in
to welding any plastic bits to the tank.  It DOES have some handles attached
to it (nice idea) that appear to be the same material.  We'll see how this
goes.

With regards to the steel tank, I won't be modifying my existing tank.  It's
38 years old, and in decent shape for what it is, but it's not ideal for any
EFI setup.  Just cycling the fuel through the filters on a return system
tends to clog them after a few hours, so I know there is a rust problem in
the tank now.  It was pretty nice 6-7 years ago, though.  SO, I'd be getting
a brand new reproduction gas tank from Quanta or one of their resellers,
cost is in the $160-200 range.  These are nice pieces, and are stamped from
Ni-terne coated steel.  I'm ASSuming that this is the "tinning" that was
mentioned earlier, with the addition of a flash-coat of nickel to improve
the terne coating adhesion.  If soldering/tinning will do the trick, that
sounds better to me than welding - plastic OR steel.

I'll try to get my photos of the tanks uploaded to my web pages so y'all can
see what the two tanks look like.  That should help to see what I've got to
work with.

Clair


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Panter" <9jim30 at charter.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options


> This subject is going on and on.  If a sincere effort is being made to
weld
> plastic then it's a common practice with body shops and the information is
> readily available on the internet.  The varous families of
> plastics--Polyurethand, Polypropylend, Polyethylene, Polycarbonates,
Nylon,
> and ABS (Acrylonnitrile Butadiene Stryene) all have specific rods to weld
> the material.  Using the original parent material may not work because it
is
> not virgin material.  In some cases it will work but not in all cases.  To
> weld it properly, identify the material, get some new welding rod, and
melt
> it to the proper temperature.  Of course, all good welding practices
> apply---grooving, cleaning, etc.
> Jim
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gregg Eshelman" <g_alan_e at yahoo.com>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
>
>
> > --- Clair Davis <clair.davis at charter.net> wrote:
> > <clip>
> >> Would it be possible, or even necessary, to do a bit
> >> of plastic welding on
> >> the poly fitting to make it that much of a tighter
> >> fit?
> >
> > Fittings on rotationally molded tanks are attached by
> > first cutting a hole then spin welding the fitting.
> >
> > The fitting is held in a chuck attached to a motor,
> > then pressed against the tank and spun until friction
> > melts a bit of the fitting and tank.
> >
> > Try some experiments on a junk tank to see what'll
> > work. A Yahoo search for spin welding plastic turnes
> > up lots of info.
> >
> >




From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Thu Aug 30 00:52:40 2007
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 15:52:40 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 30, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <20070829203647.0EA1D7FC82@ns2.nec.com.au>
References: <20070829203647.0EA1D7FC82@ns2.nec.com.au>
Message-ID: <46D65B28.8090003@nec.com.au>

Clair,
    If the wrecking yard spikes most of the tanks to extract remaining 
fuel, you should be able to obtain any number of these 'spiked' tanks 
for next to nothing for material and bits for your experiments .......
Bill


>> diy_efi
>>     


From mfrels at ix.netcom.com  Thu Aug 30 07:09:50 2007
From: mfrels at ix.netcom.com (Mike Frels)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:09:50 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
Message-ID: <21688196.1188475790608.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I would be willing to bet there is next to zero rust on the tanks internal surfaces. I have been fighting filter and injector clogging rust for several years on my '86 TPI Camaro. I have had the tank out multiple times replacing pumps and gauge senders. There is always brownish patches sitting in the low spots in the tank that turn out to just be rust dust that has settled there. When I rinse tank out with fresh gasoline it goes back to being nice and fresh silvery tinned clean. The rust is originating in the fuel lines which are plain mild carbon steel with plating or tinning only on the OD. The ID is bare steel and now after 21 years of occasional water contaminated fuel is quite corroded.

Replace Feed and Return lines with stainless steel tubing. With the current trend toward gasoline containing highly hygroscopic alcohol the water content of our fuels is only going to rise.

Mike


-----Original Message-----
>From: Clair Davis <clair.davis at charter.net>
>Sent: Aug 29, 2007 10:20 PM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
>

>With regards to the steel tank, I won't be modifying my existing tank.  It's
>38 years old, and in decent shape for what it is, but it's not ideal for any
>EFI setup.  Just cycling the fuel through the filters on a return system
>tends to clog them after a few hours, so I know there is a rust problem in
>the tank now.  It was pretty nice 6-7 years ago, though.  SO, I'd be getting
>a brand new reproduction gas tank from Quanta or one of their resellers,
>cost is in the $160-200 range.  These are nice pieces, and are stamped from
>Ni-terne coated steel.  I'm ASSuming that this is the "tinning" that was
>mentioned earlier, with the addition of a flash-coat of nickel to improve
>the terne coating adhesion.  If soldering/tinning will do the trick, that
>sounds better to me than welding - plastic OR steel.
>



From rfrey at iupui.edu  Thu Aug 30 08:05:34 2007
From: rfrey at iupui.edu (Frey, Richard K)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:05:34 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <008c01c7eab4$baf0bae0$03000004@davis>
Message-ID: <0C323EFBDBDBDD4697BD0C0F2D745C52F654D8@iu-mssg-mbx101.ads.iu.edu>

Fuel cells can be had for under $200 if that might work for you.  You
could choose the one best for your application.



-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of Clair Davis
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 11:21 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options

Wow, this idea has got some legs, at least with respect to discussing
the
options out there.  Great stuff!

To be honest, I hadn't considered welding on the plastic tank until
adding a
fitting somewhere other than the stock filler location started to seem
reasonable.  I would like whatever changes I made to the tank to be
abso-friggin-lutely STUCK, and stay that way in case something strange
or
unfortunate happened.  Plus, since I'll occasionally be racing this car
in
autoX competitions, I don't want anything TOO strange to upset the tech
inspectors.  Clearly, I've got some homework ahead of me before I delve
in
to welding any plastic bits to the tank.  It DOES have some handles
attached
to it (nice idea) that appear to be the same material.  We'll see how
this
goes.

With regards to the steel tank, I won't be modifying my existing tank.
It's
38 years old, and in decent shape for what it is, but it's not ideal for
any
EFI setup.  Just cycling the fuel through the filters on a return system
tends to clog them after a few hours, so I know there is a rust problem
in
the tank now.  It was pretty nice 6-7 years ago, though.  SO, I'd be
getting
a brand new reproduction gas tank from Quanta or one of their resellers,
cost is in the $160-200 range.  These are nice pieces, and are stamped
from
Ni-terne coated steel.  I'm ASSuming that this is the "tinning" that was
mentioned earlier, with the addition of a flash-coat of nickel to
improve
the terne coating adhesion.  If soldering/tinning will do the trick,
that
sounds better to me than welding - plastic OR steel.

I'll try to get my photos of the tanks uploaded to my web pages so y'all
can
see what the two tanks look like.  That should help to see what I've got
to
work with.

Clair


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Panter" <9jim30 at charter.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options


> This subject is going on and on.  If a sincere effort is being made to
weld
> plastic then it's a common practice with body shops and the
information is
> readily available on the internet.  The varous families of
> plastics--Polyurethand, Polypropylend, Polyethylene, Polycarbonates,
Nylon,
> and ABS (Acrylonnitrile Butadiene Stryene) all have specific rods to
weld
> the material.  Using the original parent material may not work because
it
is
> not virgin material.  In some cases it will work but not in all cases.
To
> weld it properly, identify the material, get some new welding rod, and
melt
> it to the proper temperature.  Of course, all good welding practices
> apply---grooving, cleaning, etc.
> Jim
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gregg Eshelman" <g_alan_e at yahoo.com>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 3:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
>
>
> > --- Clair Davis <clair.davis at charter.net> wrote:
> > <clip>
> >> Would it be possible, or even necessary, to do a bit
> >> of plastic welding on
> >> the poly fitting to make it that much of a tighter
> >> fit?
> >
> > Fittings on rotationally molded tanks are attached by
> > first cutting a hole then spin welding the fitting.
> >
> > The fitting is held in a chuck attached to a motor,
> > then pressed against the tank and spun until friction
> > melts a bit of the fitting and tank.
> >
> > Try some experiments on a junk tank to see what'll
> > work. A Yahoo search for spin welding plastic turnes
> > up lots of info.
> >
> >


_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From bclough at banksofthesusquehanna.com  Thu Aug 30 16:14:45 2007
From: bclough at banksofthesusquehanna.com (Brian Clough)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:14:45 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Freescale ARM7 devices
Message-ID: <46D73345.1080408@banksofthesusquehanna.com>

Greetings:

Has anyone ever looked at the Freescale MAC7100 series of ARM7 based 
microcontrollers, as the basis of a homebrew EEC?

The "Modular I/O" subsystem on these devices seems tailor made for EFI 
and Electronic Ignition applications.  Each MAC7100 device has 16 of 
these channels, enough for 8 injectors, 4 coils, and 4 other 
peripherals, such as idle air valves, etc.

I think a 32-bit microcontroller, like the ARM would make a superior EEC 
controller.  It could even run an on-board web based setup utility, 
eliminating the need for PC setup programs.

I'm a software guy, and I have a great deal of ARM programming 
experience.  I've read several online tutorials, on the software 
requirements for EFI control.

I just want to pick the brain of someone with more hardware expertise. 
I'd like to see what might be involved in such a project.

Brian




From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Aug 30 18:19:54 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 00:19:54 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Freescale ARM7 devices
In-Reply-To: <46D73345.1080408@banksofthesusquehanna.com>
References: <46D73345.1080408@banksofthesusquehanna.com>
Message-ID: <1188515994.17424.17.camel@wirenth>

On Thu, 2007-08-30 at 16:14 -0500, Brian Clough wrote:
> I think a 32-bit microcontroller, like the ARM would make a superior
> EEC controller.  It could even run an on-board web based setup
> utility, eliminating the need for PC setup programs. 

Myself and a friend have been looking at ARMs for ECU useage.

we've come to the conclusion that the best way to do it is to use an
FPGA for a 'timing controller' to offload the work from the ARM. It also
means that if the OS crashes, things dont go totally tits up.



From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Thu Aug 30 19:23:40 2007
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:23:40 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 30, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <20070830170020.71E177FC87@ns2.nec.com.au>
References: <20070830170020.71E177FC87@ns2.nec.com.au>
Message-ID: <46D75F8C.6030407@nec.com.au>

Clair,
    If you were going to get a new steel tank, could the manufacturers 
could they adjust the fittings, holes, necks etc to your specification 
at manufacture?
It would obviously cost a bit more to have it customised in this way, 
but it may be the best alternative, by the time you spend days or weeks 
trying to do it yourself ...
just a thought.
Bill
>
> Wow, this idea has got some legs, at least with respect to discussing the
> options out there.  Great stuff!
>
> To be honest, I hadn't considered welding on the plastic tank until adding a
> fitting somewhere other than the stock filler location started to seem
> reasonable.  I would like whatever changes I made to the tank to be
> abso-friggin-lutely STUCK, and stay that way in case something strange or
> unfortunate happened.  Plus, since I'll occasionally be racing this car in
> autoX competitions, I don't want anything TOO strange to upset the tech
> inspectors.  Clearly, I've got some homework ahead of me before I delve in
> to welding any plastic bits to the tank.  It DOES have some handles attached
> to it (nice idea) that appear to be the same material.  We'll see how this
> goes.
>
> With regards to the steel tank, I won't be modifying my existing tank.  It's
> 38 years old, and in decent shape for what it is, but it's not ideal for any
> EFI setup.  Just cycling the fuel through the filters on a return system
> tends to clog them after a few hours, so I know there is a rust problem in
> the tank now.  It was pretty nice 6-7 years ago, though.  SO, I'd be getting
> a brand new reproduction gas tank from Quanta or one of their resellers,
> cost is in the $160-200 range.  These are nice pieces, and are stamped from
> Ni-terne coated steel.  I'm ASSuming that this is the "tinning" that was
> mentioned earlier, with the addition of a flash-coat of nickel to improve
> the terne coating adhesion.  If soldering/tinning will do the trick, that
> sounds better to me than welding - plastic OR steel.
>
> I'll try to get my photos of the tanks uploaded to my web pages so y'all can
> see what the two tanks look like.  That should help to see what I've got to
> work with.
>
> Clair
>   
> man/listinfo/diy_efi
>   


From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 30 23:46:23 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:46:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <21688196.1188475790608.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <114623.82071.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Frels <mfrels at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
<clip>
> Replace Feed and Return lines with stainless steel
> tubing. With the current trend toward gasoline
> containing highly hygroscopic alcohol the water
> content of our fuels is only going to rise.

Don't use fuel 'dryers' containing ethanol or methanol
alcohols- they actually make the problem worse.
Isopropyl alcohol doesn't.

One example is 'HEET'. It comes in regular, in a
yellow bottle, and 'ISO-HEET' in a red bottle.
'ISO-HEET' contains isopropyl alcohol. Costs a bit
more though.


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/


From niche at iinet.net.au  Fri Aug 31 00:06:06 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:06:06 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <114623.82071.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <21688196.1188475790608.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<114623.82071.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070831130403.027a9830@iinet.net.au>>

isopropyl alcohol can be had from the local electronics store as its
used to clean flux off circuit boards. Another alternative is Acetone
which you can get from a chemist, and yeah dont use methylated spirits
which contains methanol and turps/kero is useless for mopping up water.

cheers

mike


At 12:46 PM 8/31/07, you wrote:
>--- Mike Frels <mfrels at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
><clip>
>> Replace Feed and Return lines with stainless steel
>> tubing. With the current trend toward gasoline
>> containing highly hygroscopic alcohol the water
>> content of our fuels is only going to rise.
>
>Don't use fuel 'dryers' containing ethanol or methanol
>alcohols- they actually make the problem worse.
>Isopropyl alcohol doesn't.
>
>One example is 'HEET'. It comes in regular, in a
>yellow bottle, and 'ISO-HEET' in a red bottle.
>'ISO-HEET' contains isopropyl alcohol. Costs a bit
>more though.
>
>
>       
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
>http://farechase.yahoo.com/
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 31 04:25:25 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 02:25:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070831130403.027a9830@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <536065.64606.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:

> isopropyl alcohol can be had from the local
> electronics store as its
> used to clean flux off circuit boards. Another
> alternative is Acetone
> which you can get from a chemist, and yeah dont use
> methylated spirits
> which contains methanol and turps/kero is useless
> for mopping up water.

I wouldn't put acetone in my fuel tank! I use acetone
for thinning and cleaning up polyester resin and for
removing mold release from urethane plastic castings.

It'll eat through the cheap nitrile gloves I use
faster than anything. It's worse than laquer thinner
or even brake parts cleaner.


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/


From mfrels at ix.netcom.com  Fri Aug 31 05:49:27 2007
From: mfrels at ix.netcom.com (Mike Frels)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 04:49:27 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
Message-ID: <30612325.1188557367256.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I know "zip" about polymer science but all the second hand info I have gotten over the years has told me that about the only substances the Viton seals in our fuels systems will tolerate are hydrocarbon based.

We seem to be deviating from the original thread here but if any knowledgable lister can shed light on seal material and solvent compatibility I am sure we would all benefit AND be back on thread.

Mike


-----Original Message-----
>From: Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Aug 31, 2007 3:25 AM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
>
>--- Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>> isopropyl alcohol can be had from the local
>> electronics store as its
>> used to clean flux off circuit boards. Another
>> alternative is Acetone
>> which you can get from a chemist, and yeah dont use
>> methylated spirits
>> which contains methanol and turps/kero is useless
>> for mopping up water.
>
>I wouldn't put acetone in my fuel tank! I use acetone
>for thinning and cleaning up polyester resin and for
>removing mold release from urethane plastic castings.
>
>It'll eat through the cheap nitrile gloves I use
>faster than anything. It's worse than laquer thinner
>or even brake parts cleaner.



From niche at iinet.net.au  Fri Aug 31 05:49:37 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:49:37 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] GM Fuel Pump / Tank Options
In-Reply-To: <536065.64606.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070831130403.027a9830@iinet.net.au>
	<536065.64606.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070831184521.027a92d0@iinet.net.au>>

At 05:25 PM 8/31/07, you wrote:
I wouldn't put acetone in my fuel tank! I use acetone
>for thinning and cleaning up polyester resin and for
>removing mold release from urethane plastic castings.

Well I certainly wouldnt use it as a fuel with current system but,
its not as bad as all that if used properly, ie Full tank of fuel add
200mls Acetone, cheap are more accessible than Isopropanol for
most of the general public and there doesnt seem to be any
contra-indications with respect to contemporary EFI fuel systems,
having said that I wouldnt use it on carby systems with nitrile
floats...

>It'll eat through the cheap nitrile gloves I use
>faster than anything. It's worse than laquer thinner
>or even brake parts cleaner.

Does it eat through any particular contemporary  EFI components
given it would also be diluted significantly for use in a vehicle for a daily
driver environment... ?




Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From arsoftware at gmail.com  Fri Aug 31 07:30:30 2007
From: arsoftware at gmail.com (Alex Ruiz)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:30:30 -0200
Subject: [Diy_efi] Freescale ARM7 devices
In-Reply-To: <1188515994.17424.17.camel@wirenth>
References: <46D73345.1080408@banksofthesusquehanna.com>
	<1188515994.17424.17.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <7b372cc90708310530n2e365ac6qe6843ef5e49ea45d@mail.gmail.com>

Brian,

>From what I heard Freescale is putting those ICs out of the market. If
you ask them they will say it's not true. Take a look at the emails
them send about their product line. When they mention ARM family they
only talk about i.MX, MAC7XXX family is not even mentioned. I would
not do a new design with that chip.

I'm currently using a STR730 from ST. It was 20 ( match / compare )
units and 256KB of flash witch I believe is fairly enough for my
application. When I was choosing a chip I also considered TI 470's
ARM7 because of it's HET feature.

Regards,

Alex


2007/8/30, ian <spyro at f2s.com>:
> On Thu, 2007-08-30 at 16:14 -0500, Brian Clough wrote:
> > I think a 32-bit microcontroller, like the ARM would make a superior
> > EEC controller.  It could even run an on-board web based setup
> > utility, eliminating the need for PC setup programs.
>
> Myself and a friend have been looking at ARMs for ECU useage.
>
> we've come to the conclusion that the best way to do it is to use an
> FPGA for a 'timing controller' to offload the work from the ARM. It also
> means that if the OS crashes, things dont go totally tits up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>