From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Thu Feb 1 10:03:34 2007 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 10:03:34 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] please consider donating Message-ID: The bill is due for WWW hosting for 2007. It's $240, but there's only $178 in the kitty. If every subscriber gave a buck via paypal we'd be set for a couple years, at least. So think about it, there's a link to donate at www.diy-efi.org. Checks are OK also, if you're not setup with paypal. email me and I'll send you a mailing address. I should also mention that I'd welcome someone else taking over the lists and WWW maintenance. Family demands are such that I can't spend very much time on it anymore (any time, really). I've been doing this now for several years and enjoyed it but am ready to hand it off if anyone is willing to step up. The only thing that has to be done is pay the hosting bill (and ask for money when needed). Other than that it can pretty much run on autopilot, although tinkering with the twiki, archive search engine, etc. are all possibilities. regards, --steve ------------------- Steve Ravet ARM steve.ravet at arm.com From emj14 at columbia.edu Thu Feb 1 10:59:13 2007 From: emj14 at columbia.edu (Erik Jacobs) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:59:13 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] please consider donating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I might be able to subsidize some of the hosting, but I don't have any time for the administration/maintenance. Storage costs me more than bandwidth and I have a feeling the EFI mailing lists don't take up even a gig? Erik Jacobs DGTrials / www.DGTrials.com FestiveGarage / www.FestiveGarage.com AutoFonImages / www.AutoFonImages.com (C) 646.284.3482 (F) 718.576.2578 > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Ravet [mailto:Steve.Ravet at arm.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 11:04 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org; gmecm at diy-efi.org; > efi332 at diy-efi.org; wbo2 at diy-efi.org > Subject: [Diy_efi] please consider donating > > The bill is due for WWW hosting for 2007. It's $240, but there's only > $178 in the kitty. If every subscriber gave a buck via > paypal we'd be set for a couple years, at least. So think > about it, there's a link to donate at www.diy-efi.org. > Checks are OK also, if you're not setup with paypal. email > me and I'll send you a mailing address. > > I should also mention that I'd welcome someone else taking > over the lists and WWW maintenance. Family demands are such > that I can't spend very much time on it anymore (any time, > really). I've been doing this now for several years and > enjoyed it but am ready to hand it off if anyone is willing > to step up. The only thing that has to be done is pay the > hosting bill (and ask for money when needed). Other than > that it can pretty much run on autopilot, although tinkering > with the twiki, archive search engine, etc. are all possibilities. > > regards, > --steve > > ------------------- > Steve Ravet > ARM > steve.ravet at arm.com > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From efi at dyakron.com Thu Feb 1 18:12:59 2007 From: efi at dyakron.com (Mike V) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:12:59 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] please consider donating References: Message-ID: <005201c7465e$e69a98f0$6501a8c0@IBMm> Hi Steve, Thank you for all you do to keep the list alive. This is much better than any magazines out there these days. Great mix of folks here. Talking EFI with friends from all over the planet is a good thing! Well, 'cept for you Kiwis Simon! 8-) Seriously, this list is a little slice of heaven during a typical week of hell for many of us. Thank you again Steve, All the best. MV Ohio, USA From spyro at f2s.com Thu Feb 1 18:26:40 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 00:26:40 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] please consider donating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C28540.2030202@f2s.com> Steve Ravet wrote: > The bill is due for WWW hosting for 2007. It's $240, but there's only > $178 in the kitty. If every subscriber gave a buck via paypal we'd be > set for a couple years, at least. So think about it, there's a link to > donate at www.diy-efi.org. Checks are OK also, if you're not setup with > paypal. email me and I'll send you a mailing address. Well Im going to put in a fiver or so. Hopefully someone here has connections and could offer cheaper hosting? I would, but although fairly reliable, my server is on the end of a DSL line. That said it serves the website for a major autism related event here in the UK... From mfrels at ix.netcom.com Thu Feb 1 19:08:24 2007 From: mfrels at ix.netcom.com (Mike Frels) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:08:24 -0600 (GMT-06:00) Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: [Gmecm] please consider donating Message-ID: <14797196.1170378505036.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thanks for all you have done Steve. I PayPal'd ya ten earlier today. Mike -----Original Message----- >From: Steve Ravet >Sent: Feb 1, 2007 10:03 AM >To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org, gmecm at diy-efi.org, efi332 at diy-efi.org, wbo2 at diy-efi.org >Subject: [Gmecm] please consider donating > >The bill is due for WWW hosting for 2007. It's $240, but there's only >$178 in the kitty. If every subscriber gave a buck via paypal we'd be >set for a couple years, at least. So think about it, there's a link to >donate at www.diy-efi.org. Checks are OK also, if you're not setup with >paypal. email me and I'll send you a mailing address. > From A6intruder at myo-p.com Thu Feb 1 20:34:47 2007 From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:34:47 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] please consider donating In-Reply-To: <45C28540.2030202@f2s.com> Message-ID: Steve, You should see a paypal from me, just sent. For those concerned about the costs, I have a simple site hosted by GoDaddy and I spend about $120 or so each year. I suspect the DIY-EFI site has a fair amount of traffic and there are usually costs associated with bandwidth. So the $270+ doesn't sound out of hand to me. Besides, Steve administers the site, that alone is worth far more than that cost for a year of headaches. Good job! Dan Nicoson -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Ian Molton Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 7:27 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] please consider donating Steve Ravet wrote: > The bill is due for WWW hosting for 2007. It's $240, but there's only > $178 in the kitty. If every subscriber gave a buck via paypal we'd be > set for a couple years, at least. So think about it, there's a link to > donate at www.diy-efi.org. Checks are OK also, if you're not setup with > paypal. email me and I'll send you a mailing address. Well Im going to put in a fiver or so. Hopefully someone here has connections and could offer cheaper hosting? I would, but although fairly reliable, my server is on the end of a DSL line. That said it serves the website for a major autism related event here in the UK... _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From steve at donegan.org Fri Feb 2 10:09:57 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 08:09:57 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> The schematic and current C code for the Data Logger (front end to the ECU I'm designing) are now available for review. This board with it's daughter board will form the sensor/signal analysis portion of the project. It can report the data via RS-232, LCD display and to another CPU via I2C or SPI. The board layout has been 90% completed - I am awaiting some of the components for measuring package/pin layouts to make sure the PCB is 'perfect' the first time... Board layout is on a 2.0 x 4.4 footprint which fits the Jameco cast aluminum project box #11965 (www.jameco.com). Anyone interested in reviewing the progress let me know and I'll email the PDF/C. From carl-otto at usa.net Fri Feb 2 14:24:38 2007 From: carl-otto at usa.net (CARL-OTTO RUSTAD) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 21:24:38 +0100 Subject: [Diy_efi] please consider donating Message-ID: <909LBBuXM1618S07.1170447878@cmsweb07.cms.usa.net> Hei Steve! I left you a mail. Thank you for all you have done keeping the list alive Steve. It is great to speak to people from all over the planet, and in every corner of it. People with a high scientific level of knowledge on almost all topics, no question to dumb to ask, no borders and a common goal to help each other right away. We all love you. Carl. ------ Original Message ------ Received: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 05:05:48 PM CET From: "Steve Ravet" To: , , , Cc: Subject: [Diy_efi] please consider donating The bill is due for WWW hosting for 2007. It's $240, but there's only $178 in the kitty. If every subscriber gave a buck via paypal we'd be set for a couple years, at least. So think about it, there's a link to donate at www.diy-efi.org. Checks are OK also, if you're not setup with paypal. email me and I'll send you a mailing address. I should also mention that I'd welcome someone else taking over the lists and WWW maintenance. Family demands are such that I can't spend very much time on it anymore (any time, really). I've been doing this now for several years and enjoyed it but am ready to hand it off if anyone is willing to step up. The only thing that has to be done is pay the hosting bill (and ask for money when needed). Other than that it can pretty much run on autopilot, although tinkering with the twiki, archive search engine, etc. are all possibilities. regards, --steve ------------------- Steve Ravet ARM steve.ravet at arm.com _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From spyro at f2s.com Fri Feb 2 14:28:46 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 20:28:46 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> Steven P. Donegan wrote: > Anyone interested in reviewing the progress let me know and I'll email > the PDF/C. Would you like to put your project on my server? I can give you an account with secure access. right now the same server hosts my site and a couple of others. here is my site: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ and the autism event I help run: http://www.autscape.org/ I'd be happy to have this project share my space and bandwidth - and I'll even register a domain for you if you like. We can put all the prototype stuff on the site for everyone to see and play with, then. I'm planning on adding a git repository to the server soon, so we can use that to track sourcecode development, too. From steve at donegan.org Fri Feb 2 14:47:23 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:47:23 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> References: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> Message-ID: <1170449243.19655.69.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Well, I have ~20+ domains of my own already - but recently shifted from hosting everything myself to just using Yahoo for my mail. I'll be happy to provide 'content' in the form of schematics (PDF and native WinQcad) and source code files in whatever language happens to fit the project - for the PIC based stuff it's the CCS compiler, for the ARM stuff it's the gnu tool chain. If I still had my static IP's and a server here I would have given Steve Ravet free server/bandwidth for the group - instead I just did a small contribution. And where in the UK are you Ian? I am about 5 miles from Disneyland in Southern California - which at this moment is indeed sunny. On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 20:28 +0000, Ian Molton wrote: > Steven P. Donegan wrote: > > > Anyone interested in reviewing the progress let me know and I'll email > > the PDF/C. > > Would you like to put your project on my server? I can give you an > account with secure access. > > right now the same server hosts my site and a couple of others. > > here is my site: > > http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ > > and the autism event I help run: > > http://www.autscape.org/ > > I'd be happy to have this project share my space and bandwidth - and > I'll even register a domain for you if you like. > > We can put all the prototype stuff on the site for everyone to see and > play with, then. > > I'm planning on adding a git repository to the server soon, so we can > use that to track sourcecode development, too. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From spyro at f2s.com Fri Feb 2 16:47:06 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 22:47:06 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170449243.19655.69.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> <1170449243.19655.69.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45C3BF6A.2010301@f2s.com> Steven P. Donegan wrote: > Well, I have ~20+ domains of my own already - but recently shifted from > hosting everything myself to just using Yahoo for my mail. I'll be happy > to provide 'content' in the form of schematics (PDF and native WinQcad) > and source code files in whatever language happens to fit the project - > for the PIC based stuff it's the CCS compiler, for the ARM stuff it's > the gnu tool chain. I can put together some HTML and get it all online then... What domain name would you like? I can get it registered for 2 years for ~6ukp if its not too fancy. Sooner or later I'll be putting some of my own code into it (waiting for the **** CPU module to turn up... > If I still had my static IP's and a server here I would have given Steve > Ravet free server/bandwidth for the group - instead I just did a small > contribution. I have both a server and static IP but I don't think I would be able to dedicate enough time to the list to do it justice (besides I have no experience of being a mail admin). Done my contribution though, hope enough comes in to keep this list running... > And where in the UK are you Ian? Northwich, in Cheshire. > I am about 5 miles from Disneyland in Southern California - which at > this moment is indeed sunny. nice :-) From steve at donegan.org Fri Feb 2 17:02:05 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:02:05 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C3BF6A.2010301@f2s.com> References: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> <1170449243.19655.69.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3BF6A.2010301@f2s.com> Message-ID: <1170457325.19655.92.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Well - if it's not taken how about OpenEFI or OpenECU or something in that vein. I 'own' OpenISCSI.everything if anyone wants a trade :-) I R a dev type - don't expect me to be artistic. Fly a plane, drive or build a race vehicle - yep - do some electronics or low-level coding - yep - I'm your boy :-) Not sure where Cheshire is - I've been to the UK a bunch of times - but almost always stayed in the general vicinity of London. A bit of time in a few towns south of there (Haven't? and wherever IBM had it's big factory) and time millenia ago out of Aberdeen (I HATE helicopters over the North Sea - oil platform gig)... On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 22:47 +0000, Ian Molton wrote: > Steven P. Donegan wrote: > > Well, I have ~20+ domains of my own already - but recently shifted from > > hosting everything myself to just using Yahoo for my mail. I'll be happy > > to provide 'content' in the form of schematics (PDF and native WinQcad) > > and source code files in whatever language happens to fit the project - > > for the PIC based stuff it's the CCS compiler, for the ARM stuff it's > > the gnu tool chain. > > I can put together some HTML and get it all online then... > > What domain name would you like? I can get it registered for 2 years for > ~6ukp if its not too fancy. > > Sooner or later I'll be putting some of my own code into it (waiting for > the **** CPU module to turn up... > > > If I still had my static IP's and a server here I would have given Steve > > Ravet free server/bandwidth for the group - instead I just did a small > > contribution. > > I have both a server and static IP but I don't think I would be able to > dedicate enough time to the list to do it justice (besides I have no > experience of being a mail admin). > > Done my contribution though, hope enough comes in to keep this list > running... > > > And where in the UK are you Ian? > > Northwich, in Cheshire. > > > I am about 5 miles from Disneyland in Southern California - which at > > this moment is indeed sunny. > > nice :-) > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From spyro at f2s.com Fri Feb 2 17:24:26 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 23:24:26 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170457325.19655.92.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> <1170449243.19655.69.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3BF6A.2010301@f2s.com> <1170457325.19655.92.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45C3C82A.4030704@f2s.com> Steven P. Donegan wrote: > Well - if it's not taken how about OpenEFI or OpenECU or something in > that vein. I 'own' OpenISCSI.everything if anyone wants a trade :-) all the good open_somethingefi_.org domains are gone :-( how about openmotor.org ? > I R a dev type - don't expect me to be artistic. You have looked at my website, right ? :-) > Not sure where Cheshire is - I've been to the UK a bunch of times In the Northwest. AKA the middle of England, offset to the west a bit but not far enough to be in wales. > almost always stayed in the general vicinity of London. Sorry about that... :-) From steve at donegan.org Fri Feb 2 17:44:25 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:44:25 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C3C82A.4030704@f2s.com> References: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> <1170449243.19655.69.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3BF6A.2010301@f2s.com> <1170457325.19655.92.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3C82A.4030704@f2s.com> Message-ID: <1170459865.19655.119.camel@wopr.donegan.org> motorhead.org doesn't resolve :-) And sorry Ian, I have not looked at your web site :-( I enjoyed London - beats the hell out of the Los Angeles area - and I like the Underground and train system - both are fun diversions for LA types :-) My train trips in England included Grenwich, Liverpool (and a boat ride to holland), and many flights to Ireland - at the time we had a factory in Cork. Whatever you find I'm sure will work. I'll contribute hardware/software designs and whatever my past experience as a hobbiest road/drag/etc racer engine builder etc can provide. On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 23:24 +0000, Ian Molton wrote: > Steven P. Donegan wrote: > > Well - if it's not taken how about OpenEFI or OpenECU or something in > > that vein. I 'own' OpenISCSI.everything if anyone wants a trade :-) > > all the good open_somethingefi_.org domains are gone :-( > > how about openmotor.org ? > > > I R a dev type - don't expect me to be artistic. > > You have looked at my website, right ? :-) > > > Not sure where Cheshire is - I've been to the UK a bunch of times > > In the Northwest. AKA the middle of England, offset to the west a bit > but not far enough to be in wales. > > > almost always stayed in the general vicinity of London. > > Sorry about that... > > > :-) > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From spyro at f2s.com Fri Feb 2 18:59:34 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 00:59:34 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170459865.19655.119.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> <1170449243.19655.69.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3BF6A.2010301@f2s.com> <1170457325.19655.92.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3C82A.4030704@f2s.com> <1170459865.19655.119.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45C3DE76.3000609@f2s.com> Steven P. Donegan wrote: > motorhead.org doesn't resolve :-) LOL :-) I'm gonna go with openmotor.org... do you have a ssh public key I can install in order to give you access? > And sorry Ian, I have not looked at your web site :-( Oh don't worry, I just thought it was amusing that you commented on not being the arty type - nor am I :-) > I enjoyed London - beats the hell out of the Los Angeles area - and I > like the Underground and train system - both are fun diversions for LA > types :-) Fair enough :-) I'm not really a fan of big cities myself. London does have some neat things though. > My train trips in England included Grenwich, Liverpool Heh. thats within spitting distance of me... > Whatever you find I'm sure will work. I'll contribute hardware/software > designs and whatever my past experience as a hobbiest road/drag/etc > racer engine builder etc can provide. I'll do the same :) From spyro at f2s.com Fri Feb 2 19:06:01 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 01:06:01 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C3DE76.3000609@f2s.com> References: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> <1170449243.19655.69.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3BF6A.2010301@f2s.com> <1170457325.19655.92.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3C82A.4030704@f2s.com> <1170459865.19655.119.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3DE76.3000609@f2s.com> Message-ID: <45C3DFF9.7060808@f2s.com> Ian Molton wrote: > Steven P. Donegan wrote: >> motorhead.org doesn't resolve :-) > > LOL :-) > > I'm gonna go with openmotor.org... Ok, registered. DNS should propagate over the next couple of days... From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 23:20:03 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:20:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170457325.19655.92.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <140808.97540.qm@web32210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If you want a pretty package, I can probably help with that. I have a digital photography and graphic design background (among other things), and can also do documentation (I don't have RoboHelp, but I have written end user instructions for a variety of high-skill installations of various motor vehicle parts, and can take quality digital photos as needed); manuals will probably wait until you are closer to done with the hard and the soft, though. And likewise, I sent in a nominal donation while I had some spare $$$ kicking around, enough to cover a good few list lurkers. ;) This place has been more than worth its weight, and even a "large" donation would still be excellent cost/value ratio, IMHO (and Steve, I sent it under my GF Helene's PayPal account, as it is easier to get the cash out through it than through my account, in case you were wondering who on the list Ms. Pepin was. ;) I fear I don't have the availability to manage the list and software, and I definitely have nowhere to host it, else I would volunteer. If it can deal with a bit of absenteeism and the hosting is not through the same person as the administration, though, I can do that. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 23:22:50 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:22:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C3C82A.4030704@f2s.com> Message-ID: <852955.37728.qm@web32207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ian Molton wrote: > all the good open_somethingefi_.org domains are gone > :-( > how about openmotor.org ? Transparent EFI or Visible EFI, with a see-through ECU as a logo, would be nice... I can work out a nice logo quite easily with a demo unit to photograph, if there's interest. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Fri Feb 2 23:25:21 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:25:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C3DFF9.7060808@f2s.com> Message-ID: <432265.50748.qm@web32204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ian Molton wrote: >> I'm gonna go with openmotor.org... > Ok, registered. DNS should propagate over the next > couple of days... I should read through the day's emails before replying, methinks. :D Wanna logo for the case, documentation and website? Would it make more sense to have a cutaway engine, or maybe a cutaway combustion chamber with intake and injector(s)? Or something with the ECU and mabe a pretty user interface screen shot? | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 08:57:28 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 06:57:28 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C3DE76.3000609@f2s.com> References: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> <1170449243.19655.69.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3BF6A.2010301@f2s.com> <1170457325.19655.92.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3C82A.4030704@f2s.com> <1170459865.19655.119.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3DE76.3000609@f2s.com> Message-ID: <1170514648.8729.2.camel@wopr.donegan.org> No public or private keys here - the whole key mgmt thing was a pain and I never really had a need/reason for one... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 00:59 +0000, Ian Molton wrote: > Steven P. Donegan wrote: > > motorhead.org doesn't resolve :-) > > LOL :-) > > I'm gonna go with openmotor.org... > > do you have a ssh public key I can install in order to give you access? > > > And sorry Ian, I have not looked at your web site :-( > > Oh don't worry, I just thought it was amusing that you commented on not > being the arty type - nor am I :-) > > > I enjoyed London - beats the hell out of the Los Angeles area - and I > > like the Underground and train system - both are fun diversions for LA > > types :-) > > Fair enough :-) > > I'm not really a fan of big cities myself. London does have some neat > things though. > > > My train trips in England included Grenwich, Liverpool > > Heh. thats within spitting distance of me... > > > Whatever you find I'm sure will work. I'll contribute hardware/software > > designs and whatever my past experience as a hobbiest road/drag/etc > > racer engine builder etc can provide. > > I'll do the same :) > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From b.shaw at comcast.net Sat Feb 3 08:58:49 2007 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 09:58:49 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine Message-ID: <45C4A329.9070704@comcast.net> http://www.callawaycars.com/V16/ Bill From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 08:59:03 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 06:59:03 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C3DFF9.7060808@f2s.com> References: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> <1170449243.19655.69.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3BF6A.2010301@f2s.com> <1170457325.19655.92.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3C82A.4030704@f2s.com> <1170459865.19655.119.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3DE76.3000609@f2s.com> <45C3DFF9.7060808@f2s.com> Message-ID: <1170514743.8729.4.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Cool... [root at wopr ~]# nslookup openmotor.org Server: 192.168.1.1 Address: 192.168.1.1#53 Non-authoritative answer: Name: openmotor.org Address: 83.67.116.184 Looks like it's alive :-) On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 01:06 +0000, Ian Molton wrote: > Ian Molton wrote: > > Steven P. Donegan wrote: > >> motorhead.org doesn't resolve :-) > > > > LOL :-) > > > > I'm gonna go with openmotor.org... > > Ok, registered. DNS should propagate over the next couple of days... > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 09:09:12 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 07:09:12 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <432265.50748.qm@web32204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <432265.50748.qm@web32204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1170515352.8729.12.camel@wopr.donegan.org> You obviously have the graphic/art skills for this - I R just a techy motorhead :-) So whatever the consensus likes I am AOK with :-) And now back to printing the board layour and verifying the components will actually fit - this has been the area my PCB layout skills have had issues in before. If all looks good I will send the design off to my Chinese PCB fab (the first 5 boards will cost ~90$ US). Next week I'll finish the analog/signal conditioning board - the whole thing should be done within the month. On Fri, 2007-02-02 at 21:25 -0800, Adam Wade wrote: > --- Ian Molton wrote: > > >> I'm gonna go with openmotor.org... > > > Ok, registered. DNS should propagate over the next > > couple of days... > > I should read through the day's emails before > replying, methinks. :D > > Wanna logo for the case, documentation and website? > Would it make more sense to have a cutaway engine, or > maybe a cutaway combustion chamber with intake and > injector(s)? Or something with the ECU and mabe a > pretty user interface screen shot? > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 09:31:37 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 07:31:37 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine In-Reply-To: <45C4A329.9070704@comcast.net> References: <45C4A329.9070704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1170516697.8729.20.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Looks a lot like the V8 made out of two Suzuki 1300cc engines that was used for a short while on some baby indy cars made in the UK.... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 09:58 -0500, Bill Shaw wrote: > http://www.callawaycars.com/V16/ > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 09:38:16 2007 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 07:38:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine In-Reply-To: <45C4A329.9070704@comcast.net> Message-ID: <71273.81317.qm@web36703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> WOW... 4.0l and 550 hp... awesome, thanks bill for the link jim Bill Shaw wrote: http://www.callawaycars.com/V16/ Bill _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 11:22:25 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:22:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170514743.8729.4.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <10039.62093.qm@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > Cool... Haha, your box is named WOPR? Would you like to play a game? :D | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 11:48:36 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 09:48:36 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <10039.62093.qm@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <10039.62093.qm@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1170524916.9780.7.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Yes, WOPR is my 4U chassis workstation. It was named WOPR due to the storage (1 terabyte) and the dual CPU's (and of course in honor of War Games). On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 09:22 -0800, Adam Wade wrote: > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > > > Cool... > > Haha, your box is named WOPR? > > Would you like to play a game? :D > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Cheap talk? > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > http://voice.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From spyro at f2s.com Sat Feb 3 11:54:32 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 17:54:32 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <140808.97540.qm@web32210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <140808.97540.qm@web32210.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45C4CC58.8080104@f2s.com> Adam Wade wrote: > If you want a pretty package, I can probably help with > that. I have a digital photography and graphic design > background (among other things), and can also do > documentation (I don't have RoboHelp, but I have > written end user instructions for a variety of > high-skill installations of various motor vehicle > parts, and can take quality digital photos as needed); > manuals will probably wait until you are closer to > done with the hard and the soft, though. Cool, - and sure, some nice cutaway graphics would be welcome additions... I'd have just googled and modified other stuff :) From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 11:56:28 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:56:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine In-Reply-To: <1170516697.8729.20.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <619787.88477.qm@web32204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > Looks a lot like the V8 made out of two Suzuki > 1300cc engines that was used for a short while on > some baby indy cars made in the UK.... Well, each 4 cylinder "block" is just shy of 1000cc, it has 5 valves per cylinder, and a central cam chain tunnel... I'm laying odds on it being four Yamaha FZ-1 engines (power output is about right) with a pair of cranks built to take side-by-side rods for cylinders on either side of the V (standard for American V8s). A nice execution, but it doesn't look terribly special -- or complicated. I am wonderinf what that special cam drive system is they allude to in their literature, though... Looks like a regular cam chain setup taken right from the motorcycle engine. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From spyro at f2s.com Sat Feb 3 11:58:02 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 17:58:02 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170514648.8729.2.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <1170432597.19655.22.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C39EFE.4040708@f2s.com> <1170449243.19655.69.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3BF6A.2010301@f2s.com> <1170457325.19655.92.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3C82A.4030704@f2s.com> <1170459865.19655.119.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C3DE76.3000609@f2s.com> <1170514648.8729.2.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45C4CD2A.2070103@f2s.com> Steven P. Donegan wrote: > No public or private keys here - the whole key mgmt thing was a pain and Ok, if you install putty and winSCP you should be able to generate a public/provate key easily enough. generate a DSA key in openSSH format and I'll pop the public one onto the server. Alternatively I can generate both and send them to you (should be 'secure enough') From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 11:59:34 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 09:59:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine In-Reply-To: <71273.81317.qm@web36703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40977.51357.qm@web32205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> -- Jim Butterfield wrote: > WOW... 4.0l and 550 hp... Fairly low for a motorcycle. If they had used four ZX-10R or GSX-R1000 motors, they'd have something more like 680 bhp at the clutch without any mods at all to the top end, pistons, and rods, or the EFI system (although they'd need 4x the volume at rated pressure over the stock in-tank motorcycle pump, which shouldn't be hard to do with aftermarket automotive pumps). Alternately, they could have the same power output out of 2.4 liters if they used GSX-R600 or R6 motors. Of course, it's a lot less money to buy four FZ-1 motors from a junkyard than to buy four cutting-edge sportbike motors... | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 12:02:05 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 10:02:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C4CC58.8080104@f2s.com> Message-ID: <840208.73190.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ian Molton wrote: > Cool, - and sure, some nice cutaway graphics would > be welcome additions... I'd have just googled and > modified other stuff :) :D If we know what box is slated for the main ECU, and we know what MCU, I can either borrow high-res images from the manufacturers, or I can shoot some stuff with a prototype unit. Since it's the ECU that's the core of the project, I figure the logo should be of the main ECU board, and I'll stick in the URL and everything in the logo once I have images to work with. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 12:43:11 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:43:11 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine In-Reply-To: <619787.88477.qm@web32204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <619787.88477.qm@web32204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1170528191.9780.17.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Looks pretty cool - if the 16 cylinders fire evenly (90 degrees apart) it should make lots of torque :-) And be darned smooth... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 09:56 -0800, Adam Wade wrote: > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > > > Looks a lot like the V8 made out of two Suzuki > > 1300cc engines that was used for a short while on > > some baby indy cars made in the UK.... > > Well, each 4 cylinder "block" is just shy of 1000cc, > it has 5 valves per cylinder, and a central cam chain > tunnel... I'm laying odds on it being four Yamaha > FZ-1 engines (power output is about right) with a pair > of cranks built to take side-by-side rods for > cylinders on either side of the V (standard for > American V8s). A nice execution, but it doesn't look > terribly special -- or complicated. I am wonderinf > what that special cam drive system is they allude to > in their literature, though... Looks like a regular > cam chain setup taken right from the motorcycle engine. > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Want to start your own business? > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 12:46:16 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 10:46:16 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <840208.73190.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <840208.73190.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1170528376.9780.21.camel@wopr.donegan.org> I believe Ian and I are both leaning towards a Philips/NPX LPC2138 CPU/MCU for the core. The dev board I have for that one is an Olimex LPCH2138 - a nice pic of that board can be had here: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=266 On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 10:02 -0800, Adam Wade wrote: > --- Ian Molton wrote: > > > Cool, - and sure, some nice cutaway graphics would > > be welcome additions... I'd have just googled and > > modified other stuff :) > > :D > > If we know what box is slated for the main ECU, and we > know what MCU, I can either borrow high-res images > from the manufacturers, or I can shoot some stuff with > a prototype unit. Since it's the ECU that's the core > of the project, I figure the logo should be of the > main ECU board, and I'll stick in the URL and > everything in the logo once I have images to work with. > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From spyro at f2s.com Sat Feb 3 15:27:27 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 21:27:27 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170528376.9780.21.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <840208.73190.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1170528376.9780.21.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45C4FE3F.2030209@f2s.com> Steven P. Donegan wrote: > I believe Ian and I are both leaning towards a Philips/NPX LPC2138 > CPU/MCU for the core. Yup. loads of PWM outputs and ADC inputs (6 and 8 reespectively), I2C, 2x serial, 512/32K of flash/RAM, and a RTC! core clock 60MHz. ARM7 cores can run at ~1 cycle per instruction so if the core sampling/control stuff took even 1000 cycles per revolution, we'd still be good for ~60,000 RPM! From spyro at f2s.com Sat Feb 3 15:29:36 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 21:29:36 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <10039.62093.qm@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <10039.62093.qm@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45C4FEC0.90706@f2s.com> Adam Wade wrote: > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > >> Cool... > > Haha, your box is named WOPR? > > Would you like to play a game? :D LOL, didnt spot that at first :-) From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 15:44:32 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 13:44:32 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C4FE3F.2030209@f2s.com> References: <840208.73190.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1170528376.9780.21.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C4FE3F.2030209@f2s.com> Message-ID: <1170539072.9780.31.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Given the 'front end' processing the data logger part will be able to do I expect the ARM will be snoozing even if it does the DSP'ish work of analyzing ION sensor inputs :-) And I believe the 60k RPM is about 4x any expected usage - being an Engineer I LOVE massive overkill :-) On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 21:27 +0000, Ian Molton wrote: > Steven P. Donegan wrote: > > I believe Ian and I are both leaning towards a Philips/NPX LPC2138 > > CPU/MCU for the core. > > Yup. loads of PWM outputs and ADC inputs (6 and 8 reespectively), I2C, > 2x serial, 512/32K of flash/RAM, and a RTC! core clock 60MHz. > > ARM7 cores can run at ~1 cycle per instruction so if the core > sampling/control stuff took even 1000 cycles per revolution, we'd still > be good for ~60,000 RPM! > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From spyro at f2s.com Sat Feb 3 16:00:05 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:00:05 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170539072.9780.31.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <840208.73190.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1170528376.9780.21.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C4FE3F.2030209@f2s.com> <1170539072.9780.31.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45C505E5.3060900@f2s.com> Steven P. Donegan wrote: > Given the 'front end' processing the data logger part will be able to do > I expect the ARM will be snoozing even if it does the DSP'ish work of > analyzing ION sensor inputs :-) FFT on an ARM... I wouldnt like to say - its not the fastest of calculations without an FPU or hand crafted fixed point assembly... that said if its merely RPM related functions, then there are simpler algorithms. > And I believe the 60k RPM is about 4x any expected usage - being an > Engineer I LOVE massive overkill :-) That said, if anyone would like us to, erm, test the system on an engine capable of this sort of speed, please don't heasitate to donate one to Steve and I, so we can be sure to get the ECU tailored nicely to work on it... From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 16:03:15 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 14:03:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170528376.9780.21.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <91590.13063.qm@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > I believe Ian and I are both leaning towards a > Philips/NPX LPC2138 CPU/MCU for the core. The dev > board I have for that one is an Olimex LPCH2138 Good stuff. I also stumbled over this unit: http://www.olimex.com/dev/lpc-mt-2138.html That looks like it would be a primo dash-mounted unit for those who want to have access to multiple maps, or who want to tune while they drive, or suchlike. Doesn't look much bigger than a pack of gum, with five buttons and a 2x16 LCD. Wasn't so long ago that that sort of computing power in that small a package would have cost thousands of dollars. Amazing how far we have come, and how fast. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 16:06:04 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 14:06:04 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C505E5.3060900@f2s.com> References: <840208.73190.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1170528376.9780.21.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C4FE3F.2030209@f2s.com> <1170539072.9780.31.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45C505E5.3060900@f2s.com> Message-ID: <1170540364.9780.45.camel@wopr.donegan.org> The ION stuff is basically watching for spark plug event, then for 2-3 curves in data and finding the correct ones - one indicates ping, one is peak pressure - there are others... It's been done on a slow 32 bit controller so it should be do-able on the ARM... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 22:00 +0000, Ian Molton wrote: > Steven P. Donegan wrote: > > Given the 'front end' processing the data logger part will be able to do > > I expect the ARM will be snoozing even if it does the DSP'ish work of > > analyzing ION sensor inputs :-) > > FFT on an ARM... I wouldnt like to say - its not the fastest of > calculations without an FPU or hand crafted fixed point assembly... > that said if its merely RPM related functions, then there are simpler > algorithms. > > > And I believe the 60k RPM is about 4x any expected usage - being an > > Engineer I LOVE massive overkill :-) > > That said, if anyone would like us to, erm, test the system on an engine > capable of this sort of speed, please don't heasitate to donate one to > Steve and I, so we can be sure to get the ECU tailored nicely to work on > it... > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From spyro at f2s.com Sat Feb 3 16:07:40 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 22:07:40 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <91590.13063.qm@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <91590.13063.qm@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45C507AC.5050502@f2s.com> Adam Wade wrote: > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > >> I believe Ian and I are both leaning towards a >> Philips/NPX LPC2138 CPU/MCU for the core. The dev >> board I have for that one is an Olimex LPCH2138 > > Good stuff. I also stumbled over this unit: > http://www.olimex.com/dev/lpc-mt-2138.html Yeah, its cute. basically the same as the LPC2138 but with an LCD and some buttons. I am going to have another computer (gutted PDA) as a head unit, so I dont need this kind of thing in my ECU. besides I want the ECU underhood. I might put a serial LCD on it for error readout, but I can do that for a lot less than the difference in board cost... From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 16:38:17 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 14:38:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C4FE3F.2030209@f2s.com> Message-ID: <858305.66063.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ian Molton wrote: > Yup. loads of PWM outputs and ADC inputs (6 and 8 > reespectively), I2C, 2x serial, 512/32K of flash/RAM, > and a RTC! core clock 60MHz. You may want to consider a CAN bus port, now or in the future. OBD III is going to run CAN bus for all I/O, mandatory, which means code pullers will all switch to CAN, and that is very likely going to be the main data bus of choice for most OEs on OBD III-compliant hardware; if someone wanted to make the open-source ECU interface with the rest of the electronics in their car, it would limit the possibilities (although I suppose it would not be difficult to get a CAN node controller and wire it into an usused I/O port -- there may well be CAN node controllers that interface via I2C). Correction: http://iram.fr/IRAMFR/TA/computer/canI2C.pdf Looks like it's more of a PITA than I'd thought. Something to consider... | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 16:45:39 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 14:45:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170540364.9780.45.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <785993.69231.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > The ION stuff is basically watching for spark plug > event, then for 2-3 curves in data and finding the > correct ones - one indicates ping, one is peak > pressure - there are others... It's been done > on a slow 32 bit controller so it should be do-able > on the ARM... The difficulty comes in wanting to go beyond a few simple basic curves to more complex data; for instance, closed-loop spark control that can "see" ping and PPP timing, or closed-loop fueling control from watching vagaries in the ion trace that indicate different end gas compositions. This is where FFT becomes necessary, since you have essentially several sets of low-signal data all meshed together. For basic patytern-matching, though, a LUT would probably be acceptable, provided you weren't running an engine where the normal ion trace was fairly close to one of those in the "library"; the trace will vary with combustion chamber size, heat of combustion, combustion speed, fuel mixture, spark timing... And so on. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 16:46:43 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 14:46:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170540364.9780.45.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <5294.55984.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Actually, come to think of it, I have some good research-level papers on ion sensing that might be of interest for development purposes, since they tend to indicate what sort of information you want to gather from the ion sensing data stream. Let me know if you want me to dig them up and send them over. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 17:00:00 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 15:00:00 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <785993.69231.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <785993.69231.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1170543600.9780.56.camel@wopr.donegan.org> I'm glad you have this level of knowledge - tag you're it :-) The hardware part I have prototyped already and a scope did show the curves I expect. I will get back to that board after the data logger is completed... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 14:45 -0800, Adam Wade wrote: > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > > > The ION stuff is basically watching for spark plug > > event, then for 2-3 curves in data and finding the > > correct ones - one indicates ping, one is peak > > pressure - there are others... It's been done > > on a slow 32 bit controller so it should be do-able > > on the ARM... > > The difficulty comes in wanting to go beyond a few > simple basic curves to more complex data; for > instance, closed-loop spark control that can "see" > ping and PPP timing, or closed-loop fueling control > from watching vagaries in the ion trace that indicate > different end gas compositions. This is where FFT > becomes necessary, since you have essentially several > sets of low-signal data all meshed together. For > basic patytern-matching, though, a LUT would probably > be acceptable, provided you weren't running an engine > where the normal ion trace was fairly close to one of > those in the "library"; the trace will vary with > combustion chamber size, heat of combustion, > combustion speed, fuel mixture, spark timing... And > so on. > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Cheap talk? > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > http://voice.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From spyro at f2s.com Sat Feb 3 17:29:23 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 23:29:23 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <5294.55984.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5294.55984.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45C51AD3.1010407@f2s.com> Adam Wade wrote: > Actually, come to think of it, I have some good > research-level papers on ion sensing that might be of > interest for development purposes, since they tend to > indicate what sort of information you want to gather > from the ion sensing data stream. Let me know if you > want me to dig them up and send them over. Better than that, if you send me a DSA public key I'll get you access to the openmotor.org account then you can upload stuff like this without having to pass it to me or Stephen. whats your HTML like? I would be happy for you to modify the pages (once they are up) if its at least better than the machine generated drivel we see everywhere :-) From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 17:29:31 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 15:29:31 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <5294.55984.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5294.55984.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1170545371.9780.59.camel@wopr.donegan.org> I am always interested :-) However as Ian is at this moment building the web site and file upload area it may be best to just use that as a repository for all of the project related stuff... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 14:46 -0800, Adam Wade wrote: > Actually, come to think of it, I have some good > research-level papers on ion sensing that might be of > interest for development purposes, since they tend to > indicate what sort of information you want to gather > from the ion sensing data stream. Let me know if you > want me to dig them up and send them over. > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > The fish are biting. > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 17:30:59 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 15:30:59 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C507AC.5050502@f2s.com> References: <91590.13063.qm@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45C507AC.5050502@f2s.com> Message-ID: <1170545459.9780.61.camel@wopr.donegan.org> I am already doing RS-232 and LCD output logic in the data logger - we can re-use that stuff with the ARM... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 22:07 +0000, Ian Molton wrote: > Adam Wade wrote: > > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > > > >> I believe Ian and I are both leaning towards a > >> Philips/NPX LPC2138 CPU/MCU for the core. The dev > >> board I have for that one is an Olimex LPCH2138 > > > > Good stuff. I also stumbled over this unit: > > http://www.olimex.com/dev/lpc-mt-2138.html > > Yeah, its cute. basically the same as the LPC2138 but with an LCD and > some buttons. > > I am going to have another computer (gutted PDA) as a head unit, so I > dont need this kind of thing in my ECU. besides I want the ECU > underhood. I might put a serial LCD on it for error readout, but I can > do that for a lot less than the difference in board cost... > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 18:39:57 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 16:39:57 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <858305.66063.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <858305.66063.qm@web32215.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1170549597.9780.64.camel@wopr.donegan.org> I am looking at CAN possibilities :-) So never fear this little project will grow as needs drive it... Example - small footprint system for motorcycles because someone wants one :-) On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 14:38 -0800, Adam Wade wrote: > --- Ian Molton wrote: > > > Yup. loads of PWM outputs and ADC inputs (6 and 8 > > reespectively), I2C, 2x serial, 512/32K of > flash/RAM, > > and a RTC! core clock 60MHz. > > You may want to consider a CAN bus port, now or in the > future. OBD III is going to run CAN bus for all I/O, > mandatory, which means code pullers will all switch to > CAN, and that is very likely going to be the main data > bus of choice for most OEs on OBD III-compliant > hardware; if someone wanted to make the open-source > ECU interface with the rest of the electronics in > their car, it would limit the possibilities (although > I suppose it would not be difficult to get a CAN node > controller and wire it into an usused I/O port -- > there may well be CAN node controllers that interface > via I2C). Correction: > http://iram.fr/IRAMFR/TA/computer/canI2C.pdf > > Looks like it's more of a PITA than I'd thought. > > Something to consider... > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 19:39:06 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:39:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C51AD3.1010407@f2s.com> Message-ID: <210841.47967.qm@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ian Molton wrote: > Better than that, if you send me a DSA public key > I'll get you access to the openmotor.org account Swank. Email to follow. > whats your HTML like? I would be happy for you to > modify the pages (once they are up) if its at least > better than the machine generated drivel we > see everywhere :-) My command of HTML begins and ends with the classic tags circa 1994 or so. I know nothing of style sheets, but I have poked around in the guts of a few "modern" website, and they don't look so hard to sort (in fact, they read a bit to me, conceptually, like PASCAL subroutines and variable callouts). And generally, if I futz around with something long enough I can get it to look the way I want it to. And I gather this site will be more about conveying data than being flashy and swoopy, so I don't really need knowledge all of the whiz-bang anyhow. So, yeah, short answer is I can probably handle that. :) | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 3 19:50:53 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 17:50:53 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <210841.47967.qm@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <210841.47967.qm@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1170553853.9780.72.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Ian is likely crashed by now :-) We chatted until after his local midnight. Sounds like we have a small core of folks to work on the project(s) at hand. By my count they are a data logger/display, a motorcycle class EFI/ignition system and a car class EFI/ignition system - 'class' only refers to physical size. BTW - the data logger will also have the ability to be inserted 'in-line' with the stock ECU/ECM and adjust the signals it sees before forwarding them to the stock ECU/ECM... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 17:39 -0800, Adam Wade wrote: > --- Ian Molton wrote: > > > Better than that, if you send me a DSA public key > > I'll get you access to the openmotor.org account > > Swank. Email to follow. > > > whats your HTML like? I would be happy for you to > > modify the pages (once they are up) if its at least > > better than the machine generated drivel we > > see everywhere :-) > > My command of HTML begins and ends with the classic > tags circa 1994 or so. I know nothing of style > sheets, but I have poked around in the guts of a few > "modern" website, and they don't look so hard to sort > (in fact, they read a bit to me, conceptually, like > PASCAL subroutines and variable callouts). And > generally, if I futz around with something long enough > I can get it to look the way I want it to. And I > gather this site will be more about conveying data > than being flashy and swoopy, so I don't really need > knowledge all of the whiz-bang anyhow. So, yeah, > short answer is I can probably handle that. :) > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Finding fabulous fares is fun. > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 3 20:39:12 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 18:39:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170545459.9780.61.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <22801.45014.qm@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > I am already doing RS-232 and LCD output logic in > the data logger - we can re-use that stuff with > the ARM... I actually had a good idea formulate while reading this. Why not offer source code to make the data logger optionally into a smart gauge "package"; you could use the separate processor in the data logger to handle measuring and displaying data from sensors etc., and doing data logging at the same time, and leave the processing power of the "main brain" for EFI-related tasks. Would it be reasonable to send data for gauge functions through the I2C port? I know some of them today runj much faster than the original standard, so it might be feasible to send a sensor "address" byte and a sensor reading perhaps two of three times a second. Each sensor would have a data broadcast this often. Does that sound reasonable? Or you could even use the data logger as a "front end"; it inputs all your sensor data and then sends it out over the I2C to other interested parties, and you don't connect any sensors at all directly to the MCU. And then you could have full display and control (perhaps useful when debugging, and def. useful when tuning) on the dash, while having the actual ECU under the bonnet. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From jean at jeanbelanger.net Sat Feb 3 21:16:37 2007 From: jean at jeanbelanger.net (Jean Belanger) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 22:16:37 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <22801.45014.qm@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01b501c7480a$e2988e30$6401a8c0@intel253> I've been following this thread with interest. Even though I don't need this at the moment, I'm interested to see where it ends up and I might be able to help at some point. Comments below. > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On > Behalf Of Adam Wade > Sent: February 3, 2007 9:39 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review > > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > > > I am already doing RS-232 and LCD output logic in > > the data logger - we can re-use that stuff with > > the ARM... > > I actually had a good idea formulate while reading > this. > > Why not offer source code to make the data logger > optionally into a smart gauge "package"; you could use > the separate processor in the data logger to handle > measuring and displaying data from sensors etc., and > doing data logging at the same time, and leave the > processing power of the "main brain" for EFI-related > tasks. Would it be reasonable to send data for gauge > functions through the I2C port? I know some of them > today runj much faster than the original standard, so > it might be feasible to send a sensor "address" byte > and a sensor reading perhaps two of three times a > second. Each sensor would have a data broadcast this > often. Does that sound reasonable? Or you could even > use the data logger as a "front end"; it inputs all > your sensor data and then sends it out over the I2C to > other interested parties, and you don't connect any > sensors at all directly to the MCU. And then you > could have full display and control (perhaps useful > when debugging, and def. useful when tuning) on the > dash, while having the actual ECU under the bonnet. > I think this is a good idea but this a case where a CAN bus would be of use. Also, you would still need to connect any crank and cam sensor directly to the MCU, of course. And unless the communications between the MCU and the data logger can be kept well synchronized and/or very fast, you may want to either connect sensors such as MAP, MAF, and TPS to the MCU or keep track of their rate of change on the data logger and transmit that to the MCU to handle acceleration/deceleration fuel and spark changes. What would also be interesting would be the ability to directly drive analog gauges. Since a lot of people lose some or all of the dash gauges when going to a non-OEM MCU, it would be nice to be able to restore this functionality. I don't know exactly how this would be done and it certainly is dependent on the vehicle but some type of PWM or stepper motor controller would cover some cases. Regards, Jean -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.21/665 - Release Date: 02/02/2007 From spyro at f2s.com Sun Feb 4 04:08:20 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:08:20 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170553853.9780.72.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <210841.47967.qm@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1170553853.9780.72.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45C5B094.7080307@f2s.com> Steven P. Donegan wrote: > Ian is likely crashed by now :-) Correct :-) Adam - your login should be active now. openmotor at openmotor.org let me know if it works - I have to manually convert your key to openssh format, hope I got it right. From spyro at f2s.com Sun Feb 4 04:11:01 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 10:11:01 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <01b501c7480a$e2988e30$6401a8c0@intel253> References: <01b501c7480a$e2988e30$6401a8c0@intel253> Message-ID: <45C5B135.9060100@f2s.com> Jean Belanger wrote: > What would also be interesting would be the ability to directly drive analog > gauges. That would be quite nice. and ideally suited to a PIC, controlled vi I2C or such. From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu Sun Feb 4 07:07:43 2007 From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F6rn_Forsman?=) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:07:43 +0100 Subject: [Diy_efi] Flap type Airflow meters In-Reply-To: <45C02404.7080505@nec.com.au> References: <20070121180006.3AC6D3B6A2@ns2.nec.com.au> <45C02404.7080505@nec.com.au> Message-ID: <45C5DA9F.6000508@gengas.nu> No, I have never seen any replacement parts for such AFMs. In your case, a temporary fix could be done by bending the wiper so that it contacts the carbon somewhat offset from the worn slot. What part number has your hybrid? Maybe it can be found in any relatively common AFM. Best regards Torbj?rn Forsman Bill Washington wrote: > Torbj?rn, > Do you know if replacement Hybrid PCBs are available ...anywhere? > On one of mine the wiper has worn a slot in the resistive section. > > Regards > Bill > > >> >> Subject: >> Re: [Diy_efi] Flap-type Airflow Meters >> From: >> Torbj?rn Forsman >> Date: >> Sun, 21 Jan 2007 14:21:50 +0100 >> To: >> diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> >> To: >> diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> >> >> Hi! >> >> Beware that there are no two types of flapper AFMs that have the same >> calibration. Typically, those intended for microcontroller based ECUs >> (for example, Bosch Motronic systems, Toyota TCCS, Ford EEC-IV on >> european cars) have a relatively linear angle - to - voltage >> characteristic, while those intended for analog ECUs (Bosch >> L-jetronic, LE- and LU-jetronic, Lucas and various japanese L-jetronic >> clones) rather have a logarithmic characteristic. >> >> The potentiometer on the PCB is divided into 10 or 12 sections with a >> laser trimmed parallel resistor for each section. Usually, there are >> also series resistors at both ends of the potentiometer. >> >> On AFMs for L-, LE- and LU-jetronic, there is a connection to the ECU >> from a tap at the "hot end" series resistor, on LE and LU the air >> temperature sensor is connected in parallel to a part of this resistor. >> >> All other AFMs have the temperature sensor connected from ground to a >> dedicated pin in the connector. >> >> When discussing different AFMs, it is best to mention the part number >> (Bosch number) of the complete AFM (0 280 20x xxx), the part number of >> the hybrid PCB (1 288 31x xxx) and the number of the return spring >> (only the three last digits are stamped on the plastic spring holder >> wheel, very old AFMs may lack this number). It might also be >> interesting to note if there is an auxiliary spring that balances part >> of the main spring's force at idling position of the flapper. >> >> Best regards >> >> Torbj?rn Forsman >> >> Steven P. Donegan wrote: >> >>> Now - if someone can just map those steps to airflow numbers I can make >>> a GM frequency MAF to flapper MAF voltage translation table. Which will >>> allow those of you out there who want to run 80mm MAF's on your (pick >>> engine) car :-) That circuit board is already built - that's my little >>> MAF interceptor project... >>> >>> On Fri, 2007-01-12 at 15:23 -0500, ScottyGrover at aol.com wrote: >>> >>>> Dan was asking about these Bosch/Nippon meters and how they were >>>> calibrated. I put 12VDC between pins 6 and 9 and hooked a voltmeter >>>> between pins >>>> 6 and 7. I then rotated the toothed wheel on the end of the rotating >>>> shaft >>>> and this is what I read: >>>> Base 1.29V >>>> 1 tooth 1.75V >>>> 2 teeth 2.7V >>>> 3 " 4.3V >>>> 4 " 5.3V >>>> 5 " 5.9V >>>> 6 " 6.5V >>>> 7 " 6.8V >>>> 8 " 7.3V >>>> 9 " 7.6V >>>> 10 " 7.95V >>>> 11 " 8.05V >>>> 12 " 8.2V >>>> max 8.21V >>>> >>>> I hope this helps. >>>> >>>> Scotty >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Diy_efi mailing list >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>> >> >> fi >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au Sun Feb 4 07:27:43 2007 From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 22:27:43 +0900 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <01b501c7480a$e2988e30$6401a8c0@intel253> References: <01b501c7480a$e2988e30$6401a8c0@intel253> Message-ID: <200702042227.43090@death.2.spammers> On Sunday 04 February 2007 12:16, Jean Belanger wrote: > What would also be interesting would be the ability to directly > drive analog gauges. Since a lot of people lose some or all of the > dash gauges when going to a non-OEM MCU, it would be nice to be > able to restore this functionality. I don't know exactly how this > would be done and it certainly is dependent on the vehicle but > some type of PWM or stepper motor controller would cover some > cases. Reminds me... I've toyed with the idea of using RC-servos to do the needle positioning on stock gauges. The servos are controlled by pulse width and (I understand) will lock when they get no further signal. Even removing power leaves the servo locked in position. This by-passes the need to fake various types of signal and allows for other interesting analogue gauge functions to be programmed. Also, pulses only need to be sent to the gauge when the indicated value is to change. RC servos are cheaper than traditional steppers and have the advantage of a built-in position controller. Some have additional limit switches. The servos have a lot of torque for their size and are very light (for model aircraft, anyway). Haven't got around to hooking up a servo yet to try. The idea is that one buzzes the servo up to the bottom end of the scale "stepping" up from the driving controller, sets that in eeprom to be the base setting and value, then up to the next linear point in the scale - or even the maximum scale if it's evenly spaced, and tells the driving controller the associated value in eeprom. The controller then does a simple ratio calculation to determine what pulse width to send to the RC servo so that the needle points in the right place. Higher needle positioning accuracy and scale alignment is possible by setting several points on the gauge. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | "If we let things terrify us, X against HTML mail | life will not be worth living." / \ and postings | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD. From b.shaw at comcast.net Sun Feb 4 07:59:40 2007 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 08:59:40 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C5B135.9060100@f2s.com> References: <01b501c7480a$e2988e30$6401a8c0@intel253> <45C5B135.9060100@f2s.com> Message-ID: <45C5E6CC.3010407@comcast.net> CAN! Ian Molton wrote: > Jean Belanger wrote: > >> What would also be interesting would be the ability to directly drive >> analog >> gauges. > > That would be quite nice. and ideally suited to a PIC, controlled vi > I2C or such. \ From steve at donegan.org Sun Feb 4 09:05:22 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 07:05:22 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <22801.45014.qm@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <22801.45014.qm@web32209.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1170601522.12453.1.camel@wopr.donegan.org> This is pretty much where I was already going :-) On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 18:39 -0800, Adam Wade wrote: > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > > > I am already doing RS-232 and LCD output logic in > > the data logger - we can re-use that stuff with > > the ARM... > > I actually had a good idea formulate while reading > this. > > Why not offer source code to make the data logger > optionally into a smart gauge "package"; you could use > the separate processor in the data logger to handle > measuring and displaying data from sensors etc., and > doing data logging at the same time, and leave the > processing power of the "main brain" for EFI-related > tasks. Would it be reasonable to send data for gauge > functions through the I2C port? I know some of them > today runj much faster than the original standard, so > it might be feasible to send a sensor "address" byte > and a sensor reading perhaps two of three times a > second. Each sensor would have a data broadcast this > often. Does that sound reasonable? Or you could even > use the data logger as a "front end"; it inputs all > your sensor data and then sends it out over the I2C to > other interested parties, and you don't connect any > sensors at all directly to the MCU. And then you > could have full display and control (perhaps useful > when debugging, and def. useful when tuning) on the > dash, while having the actual ECU under the bonnet. > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Want to start your own business? > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sun Feb 4 09:12:35 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:12:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C5B094.7080307@f2s.com> Message-ID: <886523.96707.qm@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ian Molton wrote: > let me know if it works - I have to manually convert > your key to openssh format, hope I got it right. Will do. FWIW, I am using WinSCP, and I can generate keys with PuTTYgen and Pageant. You said you wanted an RSA key, IIRC; PuTTYgen can deliver SSH-1 RSA, SSH-2 RSA, and SSH-2 DSA keys of any required bit length. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. http://games.yahoo.com/games/front From steve at donegan.org Sun Feb 4 09:14:22 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 07:14:22 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <01b501c7480a$e2988e30$6401a8c0@intel253> References: <01b501c7480a$e2988e30$6401a8c0@intel253> Message-ID: <1170602062.12453.4.camel@wopr.donegan.org> I2C and SPI are built in on the chip I am using, CAN is not. I am contemplating adding an external chip to provide CAN functionality. The current design has an 8 channel D to A converter which would be able to drive true analog gauges... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 22:16 -0500, Jean Belanger wrote: > I've been following this thread with interest. Even though I don't need this > at the moment, I'm interested to see where it ends up and I might be able to > help at some point. Comments below. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On > > Behalf Of Adam Wade > > Sent: February 3, 2007 9:39 PM > > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review > > > > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > > > > > I am already doing RS-232 and LCD output logic in > > > the data logger - we can re-use that stuff with > > > the ARM... > > > > I actually had a good idea formulate while reading > > this. > > > > Why not offer source code to make the data logger > > optionally into a smart gauge "package"; you could use > > the separate processor in the data logger to handle > > measuring and displaying data from sensors etc., and > > doing data logging at the same time, and leave the > > processing power of the "main brain" for EFI-related > > tasks. Would it be reasonable to send data for gauge > > functions through the I2C port? I know some of them > > today runj much faster than the original standard, so > > it might be feasible to send a sensor "address" byte > > and a sensor reading perhaps two of three times a > > second. Each sensor would have a data broadcast this > > often. Does that sound reasonable? Or you could even > > use the data logger as a "front end"; it inputs all > > your sensor data and then sends it out over the I2C to > > other interested parties, and you don't connect any > > sensors at all directly to the MCU. And then you > > could have full display and control (perhaps useful > > when debugging, and def. useful when tuning) on the > > dash, while having the actual ECU under the bonnet. > > > > I think this is a good idea but this a case where a CAN bus would be of use. > Also, you would still need to connect any crank and cam sensor directly to > the MCU, of course. And unless the communications between the MCU and the > data logger can be kept well synchronized and/or very fast, you may want to > either connect sensors such as MAP, MAF, and TPS to the MCU or keep track of > their rate of change on the data logger and transmit that to the MCU to > handle acceleration/deceleration fuel and spark changes. > > What would also be interesting would be the ability to directly drive analog > gauges. Since a lot of people lose some or all of the dash gauges when going > to a non-OEM MCU, it would be nice to be able to restore this functionality. > I don't know exactly how this would be done and it certainly is dependent on > the vehicle but some type of PWM or stepper motor controller would cover > some cases. > > Regards, > Jean > > From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sun Feb 4 09:16:34 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 07:16:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C5B094.7080307@f2s.com> Message-ID: <441322.55679.qm@web32208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ian Molton wrote: > Adam - your login should be active now. > openmotor at openmotor.org > let me know if it works - I have to manually convert > your key to openssh format, hope I got it right. Nope. :( Authentication log (see session log for details): Using username "openmotor". Server refused our key No supported authentication methods left to try! | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From mmob at wavecable.com Sun Feb 4 16:05:41 2007 From: mmob at wavecable.com (Mike O'Brien) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:05:41 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? In-Reply-To: <45C5B135.9060100@f2s.com> Message-ID: How long does it take for a 1992 Chev Pickup ECU to completely erase itself once it has had it's PROM removed and been disconnected from it's wiring harness? Mike -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Ian Molton Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:11 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Jean Belanger wrote: > What would also be interesting would be the ability to directly drive analog > gauges. That would be quite nice. and ideally suited to a PIC, controlled vi I2C or such. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From rwhughe at oplink.net Sun Feb 4 16:44:00 2007 From: rwhughe at oplink.net (Robert W Hughes) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 16:44:00 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <20070204151442.9C9DF28E9C@mail.oplnk.net> References: <20070204151442.9C9DF28E9C@mail.oplnk.net> Message-ID: <45C661B0.4020902@oplink.net> >> What would also be interesting would be the ability to directly >> > drive analog gauges. Since a lot of people lose some or all of the >> > dash gauges when going to a non-OEM MCU, it would be nice to be >> > able to restore this functionality. I don't know exactly how this >> > would be done and it certainly is dependent on the vehicle but >> > some type of PWM or stepper motor controller would cover some >> > cases. > > Reminds me... > > I've toyed with the idea of using RC-servos to do the needle > positioning on stock gauges. The servos are controlled by pulse > width and (I understand) will lock when they get no further signal. > Even removing power leaves the servo locked in position. > > This by-passes the need to fake various types of signal and allows > for other interesting analogue gauge functions to be programmed. > Also, pulses only need to be sent to the gauge when the indicated > value is to change. Most late model cars use air core meters which can do 90 or 270 degree or more sweeps. Check out the Phillips driver SA5778D at http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/philips/SA5778D.pdf for an idea of what is involved. This chip accepts a serial bit string to drive two 90deg meters and one 270 with .35deg resolution and could probably drive the instruments in a car panel with whatever you wanted to digitize and send out. I think most manufacturers are using something like this in their panels now to cut down on wiring and connector pin count. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W or perhaps 30:55.265N, 95:20.590W Houston, Texas "The city with too much Oxygen" rwhughe at oplink.net From MANAA6381 at aol.com Sun Feb 4 16:59:46 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:59:46 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: remove me from your email list From MANAA6381 at aol.com Sun Feb 4 17:02:38 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:02:38 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? Message-ID: REMOVE ME From airhawk at hawkgt.net Sun Feb 4 17:41:59 2007 From: airhawk at hawkgt.net (The AirHawk) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 17:41:59 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? References: Message-ID: <005601c748b6$1a58bf60$0202a8c0@MajorDisaster> Remove yourself, Fool. Only YOU subscribed yourself (either inadvertently or purposefully), and only YOU can de-subscribe your account. Go to the main WWW page, and follow the proscribed instructions for removing your email address from the mailing list. And Good Riddance. -Scott Creech > REMOVE ME > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From WSCowell at aol.com Sun Feb 4 17:53:08 2007 From: WSCowell at aol.com (WSCowell at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 18:53:08 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? Message-ID: Give the guy a break, Scott. We went through all this three weeks or so ago. It is clear from the history of messages on this topic that he got on the list by mistake and doesn't want to be on it. Will C From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Sun Feb 4 18:28:06 2007 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:28:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel pump recomendations Message-ID: <983795.51534.qm@web36715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Welll I think its time for me to put EFI on the Old Internation Scout. Shes been sitting a while and need something to pull the boat to the bays for crabbing... Any recomendations for fuel pump... the hole in the tank is rather small, so not alot of room for a modern fuel sending unit setup. maybe a rail mounted pump???? any suggestions??? thx --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. From galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 4 19:24:25 2007 From: galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net (Jason M.) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 20:24:25 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel pump recomendations References: <983795.51534.qm@web36715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011601c748c4$610c62a0$6901a8c0@BILLYBOB> Look at 80's-90's (?) efi ford trucks. The midsized Ford LTD (not the crown vic/ cop car) had an external pump. Don't know if they will meet the pressure or flow requirements you might be looking for. What size is the hole for the fuel sender? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Butterfield" To: "efi list" Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 7:28 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel pump recomendations > Welll I think its time for me to put EFI on the Old Internation Scout. > Shes been sitting a while and need something to pull the boat to the bays > for crabbing... Any recomendations for fuel pump... the hole in the tank > is rather small, so not alot of room for a modern fuel sending unit setup. > maybe a rail mounted pump???? any suggestions??? > > thx > > > --------------------------------- > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and > always stay connected to friends. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From spyro at f2s.com Sun Feb 4 19:25:29 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 01:25:29 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <886523.96707.qm@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <886523.96707.qm@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45C68789.5050805@f2s.com> Adam Wade wrote: > --- Ian Molton wrote: > >> let me know if it works - I have to manually convert >> your key to openssh format, hope I got it right. > > Will do. > > FWIW, I am using WinSCP, and I can generate keys with > PuTTYgen and Pageant. You said you wanted an RSA key, > IIRC; PuTTYgen can deliver SSH-1 RSA, SSH-2 RSA, and > SSH-2 DSA keys of any required bit length. Hi. just got in. I want a DSA (not RSA) key, and I know one of the windows tools will convert it to openssh format. From spyro at f2s.com Sun Feb 4 19:29:26 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 01:29:26 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <200702042227.43090@death.2.spammers> References: <01b501c7480a$e2988e30$6401a8c0@intel253> <200702042227.43090@death.2.spammers> Message-ID: <45C68876.2040506@f2s.com> Bernd Felsche wrote: > On Sunday 04 February 2007 12:16, Jean Belanger wrote: > >> What would also be interesting would be the ability to directly >> drive analog gauges. Since a lot of people lose some or all of the >> dash gauges when going to a non-OEM MCU, it would be nice to be >> able to restore this functionality. I don't know exactly how this >> would be done and it certainly is dependent on the vehicle but >> some type of PWM or stepper motor controller would cover some >> cases. > > Reminds me... > > I've toyed with the idea of using RC-servos to do the needle > positioning on stock gauges. they arent very fast unless you spend $$$ on them (although they have a fair bit of torque so you could gear them up with a linkage or so - at the cost of accuracy. arent most car guages milliameters anyway? a D/A converter should be able to run something like that... From spyro at f2s.com Sun Feb 4 19:31:18 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 01:31:18 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C688E6.6070609@f2s.com> MANAA6381 at aol.com wrote: > remove me from your email list Remove youself. details copied from YOUR OWN POST are below. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From steve at donegan.org Sun Feb 4 19:34:36 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 17:34:36 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1170639276.15411.0.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Oh god - not another of these 'I didnt subscribe' folks... On Sun, 2007-02-04 at 18:02 -0500, MANAA6381 at aol.com wrote: > REMOVE ME > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From spyro at f2s.com Sun Feb 4 19:36:09 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 01:36:09 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C661B0.4020902@oplink.net> References: <20070204151442.9C9DF28E9C@mail.oplnk.net> <45C661B0.4020902@oplink.net> Message-ID: <45C68A09.8050903@f2s.com> Robert W Hughes wrote: I think most manufacturers are using something like this in > their panels now to cut down on wiring and connector pin count. Im going to design some tiny surface mount i2C boards with link-settable ID selection. these I am going to use to drive the rear light clusters, and pretty much anything else electrical in the car (blower motor etc) the board will have tracking to add open circuit detection on the lamp driver outputs, and be able to report this condition back to the dash module. this means I have to run a 12V bus, clock, and data to the rear of the car, and the same to the front. it also means I get a nice low loss (thick conductor) feed to the headlamps. I recon controlling every light in the car with just 3 wires is pretty sweet. From steve at donegan.org Sun Feb 4 19:36:14 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 17:36:14 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C661B0.4020902@oplink.net> References: <20070204151442.9C9DF28E9C@mail.oplnk.net> <45C661B0.4020902@oplink.net> Message-ID: <1170639374.15411.2.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Thank you for the pointer - I may add the device to my design... On Sun, 2007-02-04 at 16:44 -0600, Robert W Hughes wrote: > >> What would also be interesting would be the ability to directly > >> > drive analog gauges. Since a lot of people lose some or all of the > >> > dash gauges when going to a non-OEM MCU, it would be nice to be > >> > able to restore this functionality. I don't know exactly how this > >> > would be done and it certainly is dependent on the vehicle but > >> > some type of PWM or stepper motor controller would cover some > >> > cases. > > > > Reminds me... > > > > I've toyed with the idea of using RC-servos to do the needle > > positioning on stock gauges. The servos are controlled by pulse > > width and (I understand) will lock when they get no further signal. > > Even removing power leaves the servo locked in position. > > > > This by-passes the need to fake various types of signal and allows > > for other interesting analogue gauge functions to be programmed. > > Also, pulses only need to be sent to the gauge when the indicated > > value is to change. > > Most late model cars use air core meters which can do 90 or 270 degree > or more sweeps. Check out the Phillips driver SA5778D at > http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/philips/SA5778D.pdf for an idea of > what is involved. This chip accepts a serial bit string to drive two > 90deg meters and one 270 with .35deg resolution and could probably drive > the instruments in a car panel with whatever you wanted to digitize and > send out. I think most manufacturers are using something like this in > their panels now to cut down on wiring and connector pin count. > > -- > Robert W. Hughes (Bob) > BackYard Engineering > 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W or perhaps 30:55.265N, 95:20.590W > Houston, Texas "The city with too much Oxygen" > rwhughe at oplink.net > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From scoutii76 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 4 20:02:41 2007 From: scoutii76 at hotmail.com (Bill USN-1) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 03:02:41 +0100 Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel pump recommendations In-Reply-To: <983795.51534.qm@web36715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would recommend you head over to the www.binderbulletin.org site. There is a FI forum there just for people wanting to convert the old binders. I've done quite a few. There's a FAQ at the top with everything you will need listed. Bill USN-1 -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:28 AM To: efi list Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel pump recomendations Welll I think its time for me to put EFI on the Old Internation Scout. Shes been sitting a while and need something to pull the boat to the bays for crabbing... Any recomendations for fuel pump... the hole in the tank is rather small, so not alot of room for a modern fuel sending unit setup. maybe a rail mounted pump???? any suggestions??? thx --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au Sun Feb 4 20:33:57 2007 From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:33:57 +0900 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <1170639374.15411.2.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <20070204151442.9C9DF28E9C@mail.oplnk.net> <45C661B0.4020902@oplink.net> <1170639374.15411.2.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <200702051133.57596@death.2.spammers> On Monday 05 February 2007 10:36, Steven P. Donegan wrote: > On Sun, 2007-02-04 at 16:44 -0600, Robert W Hughes wrote: > > >> What would also be interesting would be the ability to > > >> directly > > >> > drive analog gauges. Since a lot of people lose some or all > > >> > of the dash gauges when going to a non-OEM MCU, it would be > > >> > nice to be able to restore this functionality. I don't know > > >> > exactly how this would be done and it certainly is > > >> > dependent on the vehicle but some type of PWM or stepper > > >> > motor controller would cover some cases. > > > I've toyed with the idea of using RC-servos to do the needle > > > positioning on stock gauges. The servos are controlled by > > > pulse width and (I understand) will lock when they get no > > > further signal. Even removing power leaves the servo locked > > > in position. > > > This by-passes the need to fake various types of signal and > > > allows for other interesting analogue gauge functions to be > > > programmed. Also, pulses only need to be sent to the gauge > > > when the indicated value is to change. > > Most late model cars use air core meters which can do 90 or 270 > > degree or more sweeps. Check out the Phillips driver SA5778D at > > http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/philips/SA5778D.pdf for an > > idea of what is involved. This chip accepts a serial bit string > > to drive two 90deg meters and one 270 with .35deg resolution and > > could probably drive the instruments in a car panel with > > whatever you wanted to digitize and send out. I think most > > manufacturers are using something like this in their panels now > > to cut down on wiring and connector pin count. > Thank you for the pointer - I may add the device to my design... Perhaps better to focus on CAN aspects of the logger. A separate CAN-based display module can then display any interesting quantities that may be made available via the CAN properties of the logger. Several and different CAN display modules can indeed be connected the the same network as the logger without changes to logger software or hardware. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | "If we let things terrify us, X against HTML mail | life will not be worth living." / \ and postings | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD. From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au Sun Feb 4 20:54:48 2007 From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:54:48 +0900 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C661B0.4020902@oplink.net> References: <20070204151442.9C9DF28E9C@mail.oplnk.net> <45C661B0.4020902@oplink.net> Message-ID: <200702051154.48858@death.2.spammers> On Monday 05 February 2007 07:44, Robert W Hughes wrote: > >> What would also be interesting would be the ability to directly > > I've toyed with the idea of using RC-servos to do the needle > > positioning on stock gauges. The servos are controlled by pulse > > width and (I understand) will lock when they get no further signal. > > Even removing power leaves the servo locked in position. > > This by-passes the need to fake various types of signal and allows > > for other interesting analogue gauge functions to be programmed. > > Also, pulses only need to be sent to the gauge when the indicated > > value is to change. > Most late model cars use air core meters which can do 90 or 270 > degree or more sweeps. Check out the Phillips driver SA5778D at > http://www.ortodoxism.ro/datasheets/philips/SA5778D.pdf for an > idea of what is involved. This chip accepts a serial bit string to > drive two 90deg meters and one 270 with .35deg resolution and > could probably drive the instruments in a car panel with whatever > you wanted to digitize and send out. I think most manufacturers > are using something like this in their panels now to cut down on > wiring and connector pin count. Thanks for the pointer. First time I tried to download using that URL I got "403 Forbidden" ... I googled and found the datasheet by other means. It's an interesting device. The reason for the RC-servo was to replace the guts of gauges in "classic" cars and to maintain the traditional face. Sweep rates of about 0.1 to 0.2 seconds are entire acceptable and a variety of sweep angles are available at much lower cost than "original" replacement gauges. Air-core meters are by themselves less robust than RC-servos but should be OK if already on the gauges in place in the "dashboard". My need for robustness comes from having a surplus of left thumbs that increases with the square of the delicacy of the components I'm handling. -- /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | "If we let things terrify us, X against HTML mail | life will not be worth living." / \ and postings | Lucius Annaeus Seneca, c. 4BC - 65AD. From efi at dyakron.com Sun Feb 4 22:10:24 2007 From: efi at dyakron.com (Mike V) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:10:24 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? References: Message-ID: <002001c748db$8f9f2dc0$6501a8c0@IBMm> Just pull the ECM fuses for 30 seconds or so. No need to remove the PROM afaik. mv ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike O'Brien" To: Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 5:05 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? > How long does it take for a 1992 Chev Pickup ECU to completely erase > itself > once it has had it's PROM removed and been disconnected from it's wiring > harness? > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On > Behalf Of Ian Molton > Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:11 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review > > Jean Belanger wrote: > >> What would also be interesting would be the ability to directly drive > analog >> gauges. > > That would be quite nice. and ideally suited to a PIC, controlled vi I2C > or such. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From spyro at f2s.com Mon Feb 5 03:27:48 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 09:27:48 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <200702051133.57596@death.2.spammers> References: <20070204151442.9C9DF28E9C@mail.oplnk.net> <45C661B0.4020902@oplink.net> <1170639374.15411.2.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <200702051133.57596@death.2.spammers> Message-ID: <45C6F894.80707@f2s.com> Bernd Felsche wrote: > Perhaps better to focus on CAN aspects of the logger. Remember its an interceptor too...pure can isnt much use. Good for readout though as you suggest. > A separate CAN-based display module can then display any interesting > quantities that may be made available via the CAN properties of the > logger. Is there a good document about CAN somewhere? I'd like to know how fast it is, among other things... From spyro at f2s.com Mon Feb 5 03:29:59 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 09:29:59 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <200702051154.48858@death.2.spammers> References: <20070204151442.9C9DF28E9C@mail.oplnk.net> <45C661B0.4020902@oplink.net> <200702051154.48858@death.2.spammers> Message-ID: <45C6F917.2060507@f2s.com> Bernd Felsche wrote: > The reason for the RC-servo was to replace the guts of gauges in > "classic" cars and to maintain the traditional face. Sweep rates of > about 0.1 to 0.2 seconds are entire acceptable and a variety of > sweep angles are available at much lower cost than "original" > replacement gauges. 0.1 seconds for full sweep? my, servos have got quicker... > Air-core meters are by themselves less robust than RC-servos but > should be OK if already on the gauges in place in the "dashboard". Also already in plentiful supply in automotive grade fittings and mountings... > My need for robustness comes from having a surplus of left thumbs > that increases with the square of the delicacy of the components I'm > handling. LOL ;-) From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au Mon Feb 5 04:31:27 2007 From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 19:31:27 +0900 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C6F894.80707@f2s.com> References: <20070204151442.9C9DF28E9C@mail.oplnk.net> <200702051133.57596@death.2.spammers> <45C6F894.80707@f2s.com> Message-ID: <200702051931.27584@death.2.spammers> On Monday 05 February 2007 18:27, Ian Molton wrote: > Bernd Felsche wrote: > > Perhaps better to focus on CAN aspects of the logger. > Remember its an interceptor too...pure can isnt much use. Good for > readout though as you suggest. CAN can't provide the signal paths to the devices being monitored or controlled unless they themselves are CAN-aware. But CAN does provide for controlling how for example, the logger/interceptor does its work... as well as providing lots of data channels for logging, not just to a display panel, but also removable storage modules. If the logger is sufficiently programmed, plugging in a storage device of a type known to the CANbus could automagically cause it to provide logging data to the removable module. > > A separate CAN-based display module can then display any interesting > > quantities that may be made available via the CAN properties of the > > logger. > Is there a good document about CAN somewhere? I'd like to know how fast > it is, among other things... Fast enough for most things; up to 1 Mbps. http://www.interfacebus.com/Design_Connector_CAN.html http://www.can-cia.org/can/ Data sheets and application notes from the chipmakers also provide detailed information. Else IEEE has documents online for members. From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Mon Feb 5 04:37:24 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 02:37:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: <45C6F894.80707@f2s.com> Message-ID: <932320.39971.qm@web32201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ian Molton wrote: > Is there a good document about CAN somewhere? I'd > like to know how fast it is, among other things... As fast as the fastest variant of I2S, I believe. Check details here: (Atmel offers an 80C51 with built-in CAN -- this might make a useful co-processor in addition to adding CAN capability, at a price that is probably not much more than using a standalone CAN interface chip) Here's a page with CAN implementations for developers as well as discussion of RTOS -- this guy might be handy to make quick work of interfacing via CAN under RTOS: Also, there's Bosch's page, as they were the ones who developed the standard and the initial hardware: Lastly, there's an open-source implementation that might be of interest: I probably have some data sheets and technical papers on CAN implementation hanging around somewhere. If you can't find something you need on the subject, let me know. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 08:38:28 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:38:28 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: REMOVE ME From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 08:39:01 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:39:01 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: REMOVE ME From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 08:39:30 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:39:30 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: REMOVE ME From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 08:40:08 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:40:08 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: REMOVE ME From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 08:40:42 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:40:42 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: REMOVE ME From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 08:41:10 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:41:10 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? Message-ID: REMOVE ME From joevitek at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 5 08:49:47 2007 From: joevitek at cfl.rr.com (Joe Vitek) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:49:47 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200702051449.l15Enmox007854@ms-smtp-03.tampabay.rr.com> DOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS PAGE! http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On > Behalf Of MANAA6381 at aol.com > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 9:40 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review > > REMOVE ME > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From b.shaw at comcast.net Mon Feb 5 08:55:57 2007 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 09:55:57 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] was: Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review.. now: REMOVE ME In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C7457D.7030207@comcast.net> Since he keeps asking everybody on the list to remove him, maybe everybody on the list should send him directions on unsubscribing? Just trying to help :-) Bill MANAA6381 at aol.com wrote: > REMOVE ME > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 09:16:15 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:16:15 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: DONT WORK From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 09:16:52 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:16:52 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: DONT WORK From b.shaw at comcast.net Mon Feb 5 09:17:06 2007 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:17:06 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] was: Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review.. now: REMOVE ME In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C74A72.7010606@comcast.net> Off list, of course! | Since he keeps asking everybody on the list to remove him, maybe | everybody on the list should send him directions on unsubscribing? | | Just trying to help :-) | | Bill MANAA6381 at aol.com wrote: > REMOVE ME > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 09:17:38 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:17:38 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: DONT WORK From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 09:18:07 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:18:07 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? Message-ID: DONT WORK From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 09:19:36 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:19:36 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: DONT WORK From MANAA6381 at aol.com Mon Feb 5 09:21:09 2007 From: MANAA6381 at aol.com (MANAA6381 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:21:09 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] was: Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review.. now: REMOVE ME Message-ID: DONT WORK From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Mon Feb 5 09:21:46 2007 From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:21:46 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine Message-ID: The Powertec V8 is the 72 degree V8 using 2 Suzuki GSXR 1300 cylinder heads and barrels. both engines are fantastic. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Steven P. Donegan Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 9:32 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine Looks a lot like the V8 made out of two Suzuki 1300cc engines that was used for a short while on some baby indy cars made in the UK.... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 09:58 -0500, Bill Shaw wrote: > http://www.callawaycars.com/V16/ > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi ----------------------------------------- ************************************************** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ************************************************** From galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 5 09:28:51 2007 From: galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net (Jason M.) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:28:51 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Dude, read the message, we've told you again and again how to remove yourself! References: Message-ID: <005501c7493a$59152fc0$6901a8c0@BILLYBOB> Try one of these links below, any one of them will work... Unsubscribe is at the bottom of the page and YOU are the only one that can remove yourself. http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review > REMOVE ME > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From pyager1 at mindless.com Mon Feb 5 09:38:03 2007 From: pyager1 at mindless.com (pyager1 at mindless.com) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:38:03 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review Message-ID: <20070205153803.6C42A83BE3@ws1-1a.us4.outblaze.com> To unsubscribe from Diy_efi, get a password reminder, or change your subscription options enter your subscription email address: If you leave the field blank, you will be prompted for your email address From niche at iinet.net.au Mon Feb 5 10:45:31 2007 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 00:45:31 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070206004425.02751660@iinet.net.au>> my god it talks, is it faking that it might not be a machine ;) gorsh maybe its an evangelical - aaaarrrrrrggghhhhh At 11:17 PM 2/5/07, you wrote: >DONT WORK Regards from Mike Massen Network Power Systems Lab 08 9444 8961 Mb 0438 048961 Perth, Western Australia * VL/VK GMH Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! * RB30 Skyline/Nissan/VL Milspec ignition drivers now in economy trials * Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars * Industrial grade PolyVinyliDeneChloride (PVDC Copolymer) in bulk, the best oxygen and water protective barrier you can find for circuit boards. Web site under construction http://niche.iinet.net.au From efi at dyakron.com Mon Feb 5 10:01:04 2007 From: efi at dyakron.com (Mike V) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:01:04 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Un-Sub yourself Bill!!! was: Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review.. now:REMOVE ME References: Message-ID: <003101c7493e$d74dab20$6501a8c0@IBMm> Maybe we should call him? <<====<< Googled his AOL account & found posts>>======> 1935 Dodge car front fenders needed. Call Bill 704-535-5599, or send email to MANAA6381 at AOL.COM 11/03/2006 1953-54 PLYMOUTH-DODGE 2 DR WAGON WANTED. 434-531-1362 MANAA6381 at AOL.COM October 1950-53 Mopar 6 cyl Spitfire - parts wanted- Spitfire 6 Engine complete - Bill Willard, Harrisburg, N.C., 28075, USA, phone: 704-535-5599 , Email: manaa6381 at aol.com DON'T WORK > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From davida1 at hiwaay.net Mon Feb 5 10:14:31 2007 From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:14:31 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] was: Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review.. now:REMOVE ME References: Message-ID: <02db01c74940$c2fc55c0$34cea5a6@yancey.com> What do you expect from an AOL user? Can the admin just nuke him so we don't have to see his small-minded, ALL CAPS, two-word posts anymore? Apparently he can't read unsubscribe instructions on the main page because maybe his education never reached words that big? David ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] was: Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review.. now:REMOVE ME > DONT WORK > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From efi at dyakron.com Mon Feb 5 10:43:21 2007 From: efi at dyakron.com (Mike V) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:43:21 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine References: Message-ID: <000f01c74944$bf7de090$6501a8c0@IBMm> It would be a barrel of fun installed in some sort of mini-formula car.. mv The Powertec V8 is the 72 degree V8 using 2 Suzuki GSXR 1300 cylinder heads and barrels. both engines are fantastic. To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine Looks a lot like the V8 made out of two Suzuki 1300cc engines that was used for a short while on some baby indy cars made in the UK.... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 09:58 -0500, Bill Shaw wrote: > http://www.callawaycars.com/V16/ > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi ----------------------------------------- ************************************************** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ************************************************** _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From b.shaw at comcast.net Mon Feb 5 11:28:35 2007 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 12:28:35 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Un-Sub yourself Bill!!! was: Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review.. now:REMOVE ME In-Reply-To: <003101c7493e$d74dab20$6501a8c0@IBMm> References: <003101c7493e$d74dab20$6501a8c0@IBMm> Message-ID: <45C76943.4050006@comcast.net> A very sane and humane solution to the problem. Better than any I've heard (or proposed). He's probably completely computer illiterate, can't understand the simple unsubscribe instructions. Mike V wrote: > Maybe we should call him? > <<====<< Googled his AOL account & found posts>>======> > 1935 Dodge car front fenders needed. Call Bill 704-535-5599, or send > email to MANAA6381 at AOL.COM > > 11/03/2006 > 1953-54 PLYMOUTH-DODGE 2 DR WAGON WANTED. 434-531-1362 MANAA6381 at AOL.COM > > October > 1950-53 Mopar 6 cyl Spitfire - parts wanted- Spitfire 6 Engine complete - > Bill Willard, Harrisburg, N.C., 28075, USA, phone: 704-535-5599 , Email: > manaa6381 at aol.com > > > DON'T WORK >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From joevitek at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 5 11:47:52 2007 From: joevitek at cfl.rr.com (Joe Vitek) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:47:52 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Un-Sub yourself Bill!!! was: Data Logger CPU schematicand C for review.. now:REMOVE ME In-Reply-To: <45C76943.4050006@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200702051747.l15Hlq68019432@ms-smtp-05.tampabay.rr.com> > He's probably completely computer illiterate, > can't understand the simple unsubscribe instructions. That would make him simply illiterate. Maybe that is the case... :D -- joe From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 5 11:44:40 2007 From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:44:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? Message-ID: <661429.17019.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ya know, is it possible he has done the in-obvious and created a rule that responds REMOVE ME to any new inbound from diy-efi.org?? all our coaching would then be for not, he'd never see them if he had a delete message after reply in the rule! ----- Original Message ---- From: The AirHawk To: MANAA6381 at aol.com Cc: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2007 5:41:59 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? Remove yourself, Fool. Only YOU subscribed yourself (either inadvertently or purposefully), and only YOU can de-subscribe your account. Go to the main WWW page, and follow the proscribed instructions for removing your email address from the mailing list. And Good Riddance. -Scott Creech > REMOVE ME > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From mmob at wavecable.com Mon Feb 5 11:53:19 2007 From: mmob at wavecable.com (Mike O'Brien) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 09:53:19 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? In-Reply-To: <002001c748db$8f9f2dc0$6501a8c0@IBMm> Message-ID: Mike Thanks for the tip. Removing the Fuse will save a lot of wear and tear on the harness. I had a prom error code and re seated the prom in the zif and disconnected the harness for a few seconds and the re connected everything. It erased the error code but the BLM was way off. I disconnected the ECM for a half hour and everything was back to normal. Thanks again, Mike -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike V Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 8:10 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? Just pull the ECM fuses for 30 seconds or so. No need to remove the PROM afaik. mv From spyro at f2s.com Mon Feb 5 12:21:04 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:21:04 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45C77590.4030705@f2s.com> MANAA6381 at aol.com wrote: > REMOVE ME NO. FCUK OFF YOU MORON. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From efi at dyakron.com Mon Feb 5 12:48:16 2007 From: efi at dyakron.com (Mike V) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:48:16 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? References: Message-ID: <000601c74956$32ef30e0$6501a8c0@IBMm> Actually, most GMs of that era have fuses: "ECM-A" and "ECM-B" One is for driving the injectors, and I can't tell you which, so best to pull both fuses to clear things. Cheers, MV ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike O'Brien" To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 12:53 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? > Mike > > Thanks for the tip. Removing the Fuse will save a lot of wear and tear on > the harness. > > I had a prom error code and re seated the prom in the zif and disconnected > the harness for a few seconds and the re connected everything. It erased > the error code but the BLM was way off. I disconnected the ECM for a half > hour and everything was back to normal. > > Thanks again, Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On > Behalf Of Mike V > Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 8:10 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Newbie Question ???? > > Just pull the ECM fuses for 30 seconds or so. > No need to remove the PROM afaik. > mv > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Mon Feb 5 13:02:31 2007 From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 13:02:31 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine Message-ID: That's what they do, the web site show the cars. Looks like old time midget racers -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Mike V Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 10:43 AM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine It would be a barrel of fun installed in some sort of mini-formula car.. mv The Powertec V8 is the 72 degree V8 using 2 Suzuki GSXR 1300 cylinder heads and barrels. both engines are fantastic. To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine Looks a lot like the V8 made out of two Suzuki 1300cc engines that was used for a short while on some baby indy cars made in the UK.... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 09:58 -0500, Bill Shaw wrote: > http://www.callawaycars.com/V16/ > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi ----------------------------------------- ************************************************** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ************************************************** _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Mon Feb 5 13:28:05 2007 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 11:28:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel pump recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <669713.10435.qm@web36713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Bill I need to read line for line of the faq... jimraelee posted over there yesterday and odviously I missed some critical points. I was too busy searching thru many threads for some things and over looked lots... thx jimraelee (binderbulletin nick) Bill USN-1 wrote: I would recommend you head over to the www.binderbulletin.org site. There is a FI forum there just for people wanting to convert the old binders. I've done quite a few. There's a FAQ at the top with everything you will need listed. Bill USN-1 -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Jim Butterfield Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:28 AM To: efi list Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel pump recomendations Welll I think its time for me to put EFI on the Old Internation Scout. Shes been sitting a while and need something to pull the boat to the bays for crabbing... Any recomendations for fuel pump... the hole in the tank is rather small, so not alot of room for a modern fuel sending unit setup. maybe a rail mounted pump???? any suggestions??? thx --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. From ebuckler at icehouse.net Mon Feb 5 14:22:41 2007 From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:22:41 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel pump recommendations References: <669713.10435.qm@web36713.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010901c74963$630db0a0$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> Yeah, Tim Cameron is v. good. Don't know that he's actually built much, tho. Some good tech ideas, too, scattered thruout. E ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Butterfield" To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:28 AM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] fuel pump recommendations > Bill I need to read line for line of the faq... jimraelee posted over > there yesterday and odviously I missed some critical points. I was too > busy searching thru many threads for some things and over looked lots... > > thx > jimraelee (binderbulletin nick) > > Bill USN-1 wrote: I would recommend you head over > to the www.binderbulletin.org site. > There is a FI forum there just for people wanting to convert the old > binders. > I've done quite a few. > There's a FAQ at the top with everything you will need listed. > > Bill > USN-1 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On > Behalf Of Jim Butterfield > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 1:28 AM > To: efi list > Subject: [Diy_efi] fuel pump recomendations > > Welll I think its time for me to put EFI on the Old Internation Scout. > Shes > been sitting a while and need something to pull the boat to the bays for > crabbing... Any recomendations for fuel pump... the hole in the tank is > rather small, so not alot of room for a modern fuel sending unit setup. > maybe a rail mounted pump???? any suggestions??? > > thx > > > --------------------------------- > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and > always stay connected to friends. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > --------------------------------- > Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate > in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.26/670 - Release Date: 2/5/2007 > 2:04 PM > > From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Mon Feb 5 14:24:05 2007 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:24:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] was: Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review.. now: REMOVE ME In-Reply-To: <45C74A72.7010606@comcast.net> Message-ID: <991707.21071.qm@web36704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Has he tried looking at the home page... http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/options/diy_efi Bill Shaw wrote: Off list, of course! | Since he keeps asking everybody on the list to remove him, maybe | everybody on the list should send him directions on unsubscribing? | | Just trying to help :-) | | Bill MANAA6381 at aol.com wrote: > REMOVE ME > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Mon Feb 5 14:26:55 2007 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 12:26:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Data Logger CPU schematic and C for review In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <909905.10953.qm@web36714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sending a message every minute is not going to work. It may take time to get a person unsubscribed, maybe the admin has it setup to respond manually to a subscribe/unsubscribe request.... DUHHHHHH Or also going to the home page I sent you would get this accompolished jim MANAA6381 at aol.com wrote: REMOVE ME _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. From ebuckler at icehouse.net Mon Feb 5 16:04:15 2007 From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 14:04:15 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Un-Sub yourself Bill!!! was: Data Logger CPUschematicand C for review.. now:REMOVE ME References: <200702051747.l15Hlq68019432@ms-smtp-05.tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: <01bf01c74971$933d51f0$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> I did call both of the listed phone numbers, both were disconnected. Ernie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Vitek" To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 9:47 AM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Un-Sub yourself Bill!!! was: Data Logger CPUschematicand C for review.. now:REMOVE ME >> He's probably completely computer illiterate, >> can't understand the simple unsubscribe instructions. > > That would make him simply illiterate. Maybe that is the case... :D > > -- > joe > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.26/670 - Release Date: 2/5/2007 > 2:04 PM > > From jimbutterfield at yahoo.com Mon Feb 5 17:16:58 2007 From: jimbutterfield at yahoo.com (Jim Butterfield) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:16:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine In-Reply-To: <000f01c74944$bf7de090$6501a8c0@IBMm> Message-ID: <850013.63297.qm@web36708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hey Mike... try this..... stretch a midget car add a old 3speed manual or even a newer 2speed and hit the 1/4 mile track.... WooHoo Mike V wrote: It would be a barrel of fun installed in some sort of mini-formula car.. mv The Powertec V8 is the 72 degree V8 using 2 Suzuki GSXR 1300 cylinder heads and barrels. both engines are fantastic. To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine Looks a lot like the V8 made out of two Suzuki 1300cc engines that was used for a short while on some baby indy cars made in the UK.... On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 09:58 -0500, Bill Shaw wrote: > http://www.callawaycars.com/V16/ > > Bill > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi ----------------------------------------- ************************************************** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Thank You. ************************************************** _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. From galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 5 19:29:42 2007 From: galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net (Jason M.) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 20:29:42 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine References: <000f01c74944$bf7de090$6501a8c0@IBMm> Message-ID: <003f01c7498e$48498570$6501a8c0@BILLYBOB> Might have a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYtqDz8MZFI. It's a video of West Washington Universities Viking 30 which has a ~600 cc v8. It's a Formula sae car which is limited to 605cc and a 20mm intake restrictor. As far as I know the viking 30 never competed. Also in google video type in Formula SAE, lots of videos of these mini "F1" cars. Add Ohio to the search and check out the buckeye burnout. I'm on the Ohio state formula team now, our car with a good driver will do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds, with any idiot in it 4.2. Pulls around 1.5G on the skidpad. Best club I've ever belonged to. www.formulabuckeyes.com Jason M. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike V" To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine > It would be a barrel of fun installed in some sort of mini-formula car.. > mv > > The Powertec V8 is the 72 degree V8 using 2 Suzuki GSXR 1300 cylinder > heads and barrels. > both engines are fantastic. > > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine > > > Looks a lot like the V8 made out of two Suzuki 1300cc engines that was > used for a short while on some baby indy cars made in the UK.... > > On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 09:58 -0500, Bill Shaw wrote: >> http://www.callawaycars.com/V16/ >> >> Bill From b.shaw at comcast.net Mon Feb 5 20:03:54 2007 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 21:03:54 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine In-Reply-To: <003f01c7498e$48498570$6501a8c0@BILLYBOB> References: <000f01c74944$bf7de090$6501a8c0@IBMm> <003f01c7498e$48498570$6501a8c0@BILLYBOB> Message-ID: <45C7E20A.4070708@comcast.net> Nice! I'd like to take one of those for a few laps at Lime Rock! Bill Jason M. wrote: > Might have a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYtqDz8MZFI. > It's a video of West Washington Universities Viking 30 which has a > ~600 cc v8. > > It's a Formula sae car which is limited to 605cc and a 20mm intake > restrictor. As far as I know the viking 30 never competed. > > Also in google video type in Formula SAE, lots of videos of these mini > "F1" cars. Add Ohio to the search and check out the buckeye burnout. > > I'm on the Ohio state formula team now, our car with a good driver > will do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds, with any idiot in it 4.2. Pulls around > 1.5G on the skidpad. Best club I've ever belonged to. > > www.formulabuckeyes.com > > Jason M. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike V" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:43 AM > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine > > >> It would be a barrel of fun installed in some sort of mini-formula car.. >> mv >> >> The Powertec V8 is the 72 degree V8 using 2 Suzuki GSXR 1300 cylinder >> heads and barrels. >> both engines are fantastic. >> >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine >> >> >> Looks a lot like the V8 made out of two Suzuki 1300cc engines that was >> used for a short while on some baby indy cars made in the UK.... >> >> On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 09:58 -0500, Bill Shaw wrote: >>> http://www.callawaycars.com/V16/ >>> >>> Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From efi at dyakron.com Tue Feb 6 08:21:29 2007 From: efi at dyakron.com (Mike V) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 09:21:29 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine References: <000f01c74944$bf7de090$6501a8c0@IBMm> <003f01c7498e$48498570$6501a8c0@BILLYBOB> Message-ID: <001401c749fa$1878f3a0$6501a8c0@IBMm> Thanks Jason, I imagine the finished projects are pretty sought after when they move to start the next one. mv ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason M." To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine > Might have a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYtqDz8MZFI. > It's a video of West Washington Universities Viking 30 which has a ~600 cc > v8. > > It's a Formula sae car which is limited to 605cc and a 20mm intake > restrictor. As far as I know the viking 30 never competed. > > Also in google video type in Formula SAE, lots of videos of these mini > "F1" cars. Add Ohio to the search and check out the buckeye burnout. > > I'm on the Ohio state formula team now, our car with a good driver will do > 0-60 in 3.3 seconds, with any idiot in it 4.2. Pulls around 1.5G on the > skidpad. Best club I've ever belonged to. > > www.formulabuckeyes.com > > Jason M. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike V" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:43 AM > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine > > >> It would be a barrel of fun installed in some sort of mini-formula car.. >> mv >> >> The Powertec V8 is the 72 degree V8 using 2 Suzuki GSXR 1300 cylinder >> heads and barrels. >> both engines are fantastic. >> >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine >> >> >> Looks a lot like the V8 made out of two Suzuki 1300cc engines that was >> used for a short while on some baby indy cars made in the UK.... >> >> On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 09:58 -0500, Bill Shaw wrote: >>> http://www.callawaycars.com/V16/ >>> >>> Bill > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 6 11:23:14 2007 From: galaxiecustom500 at sbcglobal.net (Jason McNamara) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 09:23:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] OT - interesting little engine In-Reply-To: <001401c749fa$1878f3a0$6501a8c0@IBMm> Message-ID: <20070206172314.53167.qmail@web81211.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Believe the majority of teams cut their cars up to help build the next one. Stuff like differentials, brakes, wheels etc.. that may not get changed on every redesign. We're lucky that we have enough sponsership that even when a particular part of the car isn'd redesigned we still can make another one. Our old cars usually end up in the hands of the team captian of the year they were built. We also keep 1-2 old cars for training purposes/finding the good drivers. Currently we have car 106 (2004) and 81/70 (2006 east/west comp. #) as complete and running. Car #36 (2003/buckeye burnout) was finally retired last summer, it left the shop minus the engine, ECU, dampners and a few other misc. items. #10 (2005) also left the shop last summer. Kevin says it will be running in a year or two, but it was basically a bare chassis with suspension control arms, uprights and a wiring harness. The rear uprights got trashed with bearing failures. Was a bit of a bastard car. Originally it was going to be a carbon front chassis with rear steel space frame but we simply couldn't get carbon fiber to make the molds with. Between Boeing, Airbus and the military production capacity of the particular fiber/weave was used up. Making a short story long, we didn't give up on carbon until late in the year so an all steel car was designed and thrown together in a month. Mike V wrote: Thanks Jason, I imagine the finished projects are pretty sought after when they move to start the next one. mv From bill.washington at nec.com.au Tue Feb 6 21:17:19 2007 From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 14:17:19 +1100 Subject: [Diy_efi] Flap type Airflow meters In-Reply-To: <20070204151438.B189D37745@ns1.nec.com.au> References: <20070204151438.B189D37745@ns1.nec.com.au> Message-ID: <45C944BF.4090608@nec.com.au> Torbj?rn, The Hybrid PCB is a Bourns 8647, 1-288-310-053. Thanks Bill > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Re: [Diy_efi] Flap type Airflow meters > From: > Torbj?rn Forsman > Date: > Sun, 04 Feb 2007 14:07:43 +0100 > To: > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > To: > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > > No, I have never seen any replacement parts for such AFMs. In your > case, a temporary fix could be done by bending the wiper so that it > contacts the carbon somewhat offset from the worn slot. What part > number has your hybrid? Maybe it can be found in any relatively common > AFM. > > Best regards > > Torbj?rn Forsman > > Bill Washington wrote: >> Torbj?rn, >> Do you know if replacement Hybrid PCBs are available ...anywhere? >> On one of mine the wiper has worn a slot in the resistive section. >> >> Regards >> Bill >> >> >>> > ists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Wed Feb 7 10:15:16 2007 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:15:16 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] thanks! Message-ID: I think I sent a thank-you to everyone who donated, although a couple bounced back because of full mailboxes. If you didn't get a note from me please accept my apology, there were frankly so many that I may have missed some. More donations are always welcome, but -- the hosting bill should be taken care of for this year and next at least. Some expressed embarrassment at making small donations. The most common donation is around $5, and that's just the way I like it. Lots of people pitching in a little amount each, together adding up to a substantial amount. For those who are relatively new I should explain how the site works. It used to be hosted by volunteers, which always started out well inevitably ran into problems. After the big crash I decided to pay for hosting, but didn't want to foot the bill, and didn't want to hassle with advertising or otherwise trying to generate a profit from the site. So I decided to see how a user supported site would work and I'm happy to report that it works outstandingly well. I got a few offers to help out and I'll be following up on those in the near future. Anyway, give yourself a pat on the back and keep the good technical discussions coming! --steve ------------------- Steve Ravet ARM steve.ravet at arm.com From spyro at f2s.com Wed Feb 7 18:20:44 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 00:20:44 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] thanks! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CA6CDC.4010504@f2s.com> Steve Ravet wrote: > I think I sent a thank-you to everyone who donated, although a couple > bounced back because of full mailboxes. If you didn't get a note from > me please accept my apology... ...Thats hardly necessary. your thankyou to us lot is keeping the site running. And thats big. From niche at iinet.net.au Thu Feb 8 07:58:49 2007 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:58:49 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Since its so quiet and we exist a bit longer, sample of SMT on fuse holder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070208215100.02708800@iinet.net.au>> Hi chaps, Since its so quiet and we have been congratulated on supporting the site for a bit longer despite fact we are unclear about the nature of our existence, I thought I might see what you think about this and what it can be extrapolated to in terms of packaging electronics for efi and related vehicle technologies, Here shown is a vertical support for the side of a new third party fuse holder for the GMC/GMH range of VK to VR Commodore models (as sold in Australia) and shows some Surface Mount Technology (SMT) for a auto power off timer, pushbutton and related connector to drive some bright white engine bay illumination LEDs which are rated at 13,000 mCd. Its hoped that some project car builders and renovators might consider this as a engine fuse control option, bit early as documentation pack still in compilation phase but, I think you get the general idea:- http://niche.iinet.net.au/Illumination.jpg Suffice it to say such 3d circuit board approach could fairly easily be extended to many other non 2d electronic products closely integrating the enclosure and structural members with a surface that can support various SMT circuitry, comments/observations ? Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VK to VR Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, now with engine bay illumination option :) Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From buckwill33 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 8 22:06:43 2007 From: buckwill33 at hotmail.com (Buck Williams) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:06:43 -0700 Subject: [Diy_efi] thanks! Message-ID: hi steveeee,,, emaial me at buckwill33 at hotmail.com pleasee,,,, and put steve raavet in subject line,,,,,thankss buck > Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 10:15:16 -0600> From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org; gmecm at diy-efi.org; efi332 at diy-efi.org; wbo2 at diy-efi.org> CC: > Subject: [Diy_efi] thanks!> > I think I sent a thank-you to everyone who donated, although a couple> bounced back because of full mailboxes. If you didn't get a note from> me please accept my apology, there were frankly so many that I may have> missed some. More donations are always welcome, but -- the hosting bill> should be taken care of for this year and next at least.> > Some expressed embarrassment at making small donations. The most common> donation is around $5, and that's just the way I like it. Lots of> people pitching in a little amount each, together adding up to a> substantial amount.> > For those who are relatively new I should explain how the site works.> It used to be hosted by volunteers, which always started out well> inevitably ran into problems. After the big crash I decided to pay for> hosting, but didn't want to foot the bill, and didn't want to hassle> with advertising or otherwise trying to generate a profit from the site.> So I decided to see how a user supported site would work and I'm happy> to report that it works outstandingly well.> > I got a few offers to help out and I'll be following up on those in the> near future.> > Anyway, give yourself a pat on the back and keep the good technical> discussions coming!> > > --steve> > -------------------> Steve Ravet> ARM> steve.ravet at arm.com> _______________________________________________> Diy_efi mailing list> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From clair.davis at charter.net Sun Feb 11 21:27:37 2007 From: clair.davis at charter.net (Clair Davis) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:27:37 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers Message-ID: <005d01c74e55$be801440$03000004@davis> Now that my EFI project is somewhat functional, my Dad is asking about what it would take to inject one of his 460's. Now I'm not a Ford guy at all, not that I don't like them, I just never owned one so it's a matter of ignorance, not spite. That said, It's my understanding that multi-point 460's were an OEM option from the late 80's to mid-90's at least, so salvage parts should be easy to come by. Since the plumbing/wiring parts should be pretty straight-forward, I'm mostly curious about the preferred ways of running one of these critters might be. I suspect that Ford probably used some sort of MAF, controlled by their EEC-whatever box. My personal experience lies with GM ECM's, the 7730 in particular. I do have a couple 7727's in the garage that could be used for this job. From a pure practicality standpoint, I think I'd prefer to run this engine with a GM controller as well, as I have some capacity to tune the thing with the hardware/software I have on hand. With all that said, is there a "preferred" way to run a modified 460 using mostly factory injection parts? To start, this engine will be basically recammed, perhaps with headers and a good exhaust. I don't think this will be any sort of wild tune at all. Any suggestions or time-saving measures would be greatly appreciated. Clair 69 Valiant 340/7730 Fort Worth, TX From efi at dyakron.com Sun Feb 11 22:23:39 2007 From: efi at dyakron.com (Mike V) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:23:39 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers References: <005d01c74e55$be801440$03000004@davis> Message-ID: <002301c74e5d$924307e0$6501a8c0@IBMm> Definitely! Go for it. The EFI 460 parts are out there, and as you say, the GM ECM is adaptable. Now, how is the Valliant running and which code did you use? Staock cam? Tell us more. Cheers, MV ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clair Davis" To: "diy_efi" Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:27 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers > Now that my EFI project is somewhat functional, my Dad is asking about > what > it would take to inject one of his 460's. Now I'm not a Ford guy at all, > not that I don't like them, I just never owned one so it's a matter of > ignorance, not spite. That said, It's my understanding that multi-point > 460's were an OEM option from the late 80's to mid-90's at least, so > salvage > parts should be easy to come by. Since the plumbing/wiring parts should > be > pretty straight-forward, I'm mostly curious about the preferred ways of > running one of these critters might be. > > I suspect that Ford probably used some sort of MAF, controlled by their > EEC-whatever box. My personal experience lies with GM ECM's, the 7730 in > particular. I do have a couple 7727's in the garage that could be used > for > this job. From a pure practicality standpoint, I think I'd prefer to run > this engine with a GM controller as well, as I have some capacity to tune > the thing with the hardware/software I have on hand. > > With all that said, is there a "preferred" way to run a modified 460 using > mostly factory injection parts? To start, this engine will be basically > recammed, perhaps with headers and a good exhaust. I don't think this > will > be any sort of wild tune at all. Any suggestions or time-saving measures > would be greatly appreciated. > > Clair > 69 Valiant 340/7730 > Fort Worth, TX > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From chrism at cnx.net Mon Feb 12 01:06:31 2007 From: chrism at cnx.net (Chris McKinnon) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:06:31 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers In-Reply-To: <005d01c74e55$be801440$03000004@davis> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20070211230631.00de2a90@cnx.net> I suspect (I'd have to find and check my manual) that Ford ran EEC IV hardware with MAP. IIRC in 95-96 they ran MAF with EEC V. Other that that I don't have much to add. Chris >Now that my EFI project is somewhat functional, my Dad is asking about what >it would take to inject one of his 460's. Now I'm not a Ford guy at all, >not that I don't like them, I just never owned one so it's a matter of >ignorance, not spite. That said, It's my understanding that multi-point >460's were an OEM option from the late 80's to mid-90's at least, so salvage >parts should be easy to come by. Since the plumbing/wiring parts should be >pretty straight-forward, I'm mostly curious about the preferred ways of >running one of these critters might be. > >I suspect that Ford probably used some sort of MAF, controlled by their >EEC-whatever box. My personal experience lies with GM ECM's, the 7730 in >particular. I do have a couple 7727's in the garage that could be used for >this job. From a pure practicality standpoint, I think I'd prefer to run >this engine with a GM controller as well, as I have some capacity to tune >the thing with the hardware/software I have on hand. > >With all that said, is there a "preferred" way to run a modified 460 using >mostly factory injection parts? To start, this engine will be basically >recammed, perhaps with headers and a good exhaust. I don't think this will >be any sort of wild tune at all. Any suggestions or time-saving measures >would be greatly appreciated. > >Clair >69 Valiant 340/7730 >Fort Worth, TX > > > > From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 12 08:19:46 2007 From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 06:19:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers Message-ID: <360455.20114.qm@web80509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I had an EEC-IV controlled MPI 460 in a '93 F250-SuperDuty, very reliable, not terribly fuel efficient, not a lot of HP (IIRC- factory rated 260), but adaquate torque. I believe w/ a little cam work and exhaust and intake help this motor controlled on a GM FI setup would come arround to being a torque mongrel that's much better on fuel use. As I recall, it was MAF based, but that doesn't mean you can't adapt all the GM stuff to run MAP based, I'd say Get 'r done! ----- Original Message ---- From: Chris McKinnon To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 1:06:31 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers I suspect (I'd have to find and check my manual) that Ford ran EEC IV hardware with MAP. IIRC in 95-96 they ran MAF with EEC V. Other that that I don't have much to add. Chris >Now that my EFI project is somewhat functional, my Dad is asking about what >it would take to inject one of his 460's. Now I'm not a Ford guy at all, >not that I don't like them, I just never owned one so it's a matter of >ignorance, not spite. That said, It's my understanding that multi-point >460's were an OEM option from the late 80's to mid-90's at least, so salvage >parts should be easy to come by. Since the plumbing/wiring parts should be >pretty straight-forward, I'm mostly curious about the preferred ways of >running one of these critters might be. > >I suspect that Ford probably used some sort of MAF, controlled by their >EEC-whatever box. My personal experience lies with GM ECM's, the 7730 in >particular. I do have a couple 7727's in the garage that could be used for >this job. From a pure practicality standpoint, I think I'd prefer to run >this engine with a GM controller as well, as I have some capacity to tune >the thing with the hardware/software I have on hand. > >With all that said, is there a "preferred" way to run a modified 460 using >mostly factory injection parts? To start, this engine will be basically >recammed, perhaps with headers and a good exhaust. I don't think this will >be any sort of wild tune at all. Any suggestions or time-saving measures >would be greatly appreciated. > >Clair >69 Valiant 340/7730 >Fort Worth, TX > > > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 12 11:24:46 2007 From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:24:46 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning In-Reply-To: <005d01c74e55$be801440$03000004@davis> References: <005d01c74e55$be801440$03000004@davis> Message-ID: ok here goes...I work with CAD/CAM software all day at work (aerospace machining) so i'm drawing up plans for a small displacement ~1.0 liter rotary engine 3 rotor most likely with a larger eccentricity than the 13b. long story short i dont want to slap a carb on this i'd like to go FI anyone have any ideas on what i need from the junk yard or where i could source parts like coil packs and an ignition pick-up/driver? if anyone has gibbs cam or can open .igs files i'd be happy to share the product of my sleepless nights. Mike From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 12 14:12:47 2007 From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:12:47 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: the rotary parts have no different requirements except you usually use 2 spark plugs per chamber due to the distance the flame front has to travel. plans at this point are for a go-kart application but who knows i just want to experiment with larger eccentricity (i.e. basically stroke) to see if any reasonable amount of torque can be made from a rotary engine. plus they sound so damn cool at 9k rpms Mike On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:22:03 -0600, you wrote: >Hi Mike no real suggestions for parts -- are coil packs or ignition >pickups different for the rotary or can you use conventional engine >parts? Mostly just wanted to write and say this sounds really cool and >to keep the list posted on how you do. What do you plan to do with the >engine? > >--steve > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org >> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike Yates >> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:25 AM >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning >> >> ok here goes...I work with CAD/CAM software all day at work (aerospace >> machining) so i'm drawing up plans for a small displacement >> ~1.0 liter rotary engine 3 rotor most likely with a larger >> eccentricity than the 13b. >> >> long story short i dont want to slap a carb on this i'd like >> to go FI anyone have any ideas on what i need from the junk >> yard or where i could source parts like coil packs and an >> ignition pick-up/driver? >> >> if anyone has gibbs cam or can open .igs files i'd be happy >> to share the product of my sleepless nights. >> >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> From ebuckler at icehouse.net Mon Feb 12 14:58:59 2007 From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:58:59 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning References: Message-ID: <010601c74ee8$9f7bfa30$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> Mike, Do you know about the DynaCam engine? People thought it was a swash-plate engine, but it actually has a 4-lobe sinusoidal crankshaft. 12 double-ended pistons with central roller bearing push this crank around. Plate cams at each end operated normal valves in the 6-cyl. heads. VERY torquey, very smooth, lower parts count. FAA actually certified a 300 hp version for use in light aircraft AND HELICOPTERS in 1957, with a TBO of 1500 hrs, sayng they expected that interval to be increased, as they found no appreciable wear at 1500 hours. The Navy used a single-sided version of this as a torpedo motor for many years, was Top Secret until turbines replaced it. I knew a guy who overhauled these in the practice torps, says they were "coffee-can" size. Serious efforts to commercialize it have been made, last I heard the Co. still existed at Torrance airport, but there was very little about it on the web, last I looked. Rumor has many reasons for company failure, most bad management. Cool thing is that it still uses std. piston rings, also normal valves & springs, so no re-inventing the wheel, as there is on Wankels, with all their side and tip sealing challenges. Ernie B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Yates" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning the rotary parts have no different requirements except you usually use 2 spark plugs per chamber due to the distance the flame front has to travel. plans at this point are for a go-kart application but who knows i just want to experiment with larger eccentricity (i.e. basically stroke) to see if any reasonable amount of torque can be made from a rotary engine. plus they sound so damn cool at 9k rpms Mike On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:22:03 -0600, you wrote: >Hi Mike no real suggestions for parts -- are coil packs or ignition >pickups different for the rotary or can you use conventional engine >parts? Mostly just wanted to write and say this sounds really cool and >to keep the list posted on how you do. What do you plan to do with the >engine? > >--steve > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org >> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike Yates >> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:25 AM >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning >> >> ok here goes...I work with CAD/CAM software all day at work (aerospace >> machining) so i'm drawing up plans for a small displacement >> ~1.0 liter rotary engine 3 rotor most likely with a larger >> eccentricity than the 13b. >> >> long story short i dont want to slap a carb on this i'd like >> to go FI anyone have any ideas on what i need from the junk >> yard or where i could source parts like coil packs and an >> ignition pick-up/driver? >> >> if anyone has gibbs cam or can open .igs files i'd be happy >> to share the product of my sleepless nights. >> >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007 1:23 PM From Head2Wind at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 19:06:13 2007 From: Head2Wind at gmail.com (KN) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:06:13 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning In-Reply-To: <010601c74ee8$9f7bfa30$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> References: <010601c74ee8$9f7bfa30$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> Message-ID: <002201c74f0b$27fb8ca0$77f2a5e0$@com> Reason for "DynaCam" disappearing: http://www.axialvectorengine.com/press_release-30.html -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Ernest Buckler Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:59 PM To: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net; diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning Mike, Do you know about the DynaCam engine? People thought it was a swash-plate engine, but it actually has a 4-lobe sinusoidal crankshaft. 12 double-ended pistons with central roller bearing push this crank around. Plate cams at each end operated normal valves in the 6-cyl. heads. VERY torquey, very smooth, lower parts count. FAA actually certified a 300 hp version for use in light aircraft AND HELICOPTERS in 1957, with a TBO of 1500 hrs, sayng they expected that interval to be increased, as they found no appreciable wear at 1500 hours. The Navy used a single-sided version of this as a torpedo motor for many years, was Top Secret until turbines replaced it. I knew a guy who overhauled these in the practice torps, says they were "coffee-can" size. Serious efforts to commercialize it have been made, last I heard the Co. still existed at Torrance airport, but there was very little about it on the web, last I looked. Rumor has many reasons for company failure, most bad management. Cool thing is that it still uses std. piston rings, also normal valves & springs, so no re-inventing the wheel, as there is on Wankels, with all their side and tip sealing challenges. Ernie B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Yates" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning the rotary parts have no different requirements except you usually use 2 spark plugs per chamber due to the distance the flame front has to travel. plans at this point are for a go-kart application but who knows i just want to experiment with larger eccentricity (i.e. basically stroke) to see if any reasonable amount of torque can be made from a rotary engine. plus they sound so damn cool at 9k rpms Mike On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:22:03 -0600, you wrote: >Hi Mike no real suggestions for parts -- are coil packs or ignition >pickups different for the rotary or can you use conventional engine >parts? Mostly just wanted to write and say this sounds really cool and >to keep the list posted on how you do. What do you plan to do with the >engine? > >--steve > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org >> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike Yates >> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:25 AM >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning >> >> ok here goes...I work with CAD/CAM software all day at work (aerospace >> machining) so i'm drawing up plans for a small displacement >> ~1.0 liter rotary engine 3 rotor most likely with a larger >> eccentricity than the 13b. >> >> long story short i dont want to slap a carb on this i'd like >> to go FI anyone have any ideas on what i need from the junk >> yard or where i could source parts like coil packs and an >> ignition pick-up/driver? >> >> if anyone has gibbs cam or can open .igs files i'd be happy >> to share the product of my sleepless nights. >> >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007 1:23 PM _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi Scanned outbound email SVC Barracuda From A6intruder at myo-p.com Mon Feb 12 19:08:23 2007 From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:08:23 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning In-Reply-To: <010601c74ee8$9f7bfa30$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> Message-ID: Yeh, the DynaCam is a cool engine but not simple to make, LOTs of parts! If he can properly machine a Wankle-style rotary housing and rotor, he will have many fewer parts. The seals aren't black magic either. Interesting project. Dan Nicoson -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Ernest Buckler Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 3:59 PM To: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net; diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning Mike, Do you know about the DynaCam engine? People thought it was a swash-plate engine, but it actually has a 4-lobe sinusoidal crankshaft. 12 double-ended pistons with central roller bearing push this crank around. Plate cams at each end operated normal valves in the 6-cyl. heads. VERY torquey, very smooth, lower parts count. FAA actually certified a 300 hp version for use in light aircraft AND HELICOPTERS in 1957, with a TBO of 1500 hrs, sayng they expected that interval to be increased, as they found no appreciable wear at 1500 hours. The Navy used a single-sided version of this as a torpedo motor for many years, was Top Secret until turbines replaced it. I knew a guy who overhauled these in the practice torps, says they were "coffee-can" size. Serious efforts to commercialize it have been made, last I heard the Co. still existed at Torrance airport, but there was very little about it on the web, last I looked. Rumor has many reasons for company failure, most bad management. Cool thing is that it still uses std. piston rings, also normal valves & springs, so no re-inventing the wheel, as there is on Wankels, with all their side and tip sealing challenges. Ernie B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Yates" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning the rotary parts have no different requirements except you usually use 2 spark plugs per chamber due to the distance the flame front has to travel. plans at this point are for a go-kart application but who knows i just want to experiment with larger eccentricity (i.e. basically stroke) to see if any reasonable amount of torque can be made from a rotary engine. plus they sound so damn cool at 9k rpms Mike On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:22:03 -0600, you wrote: >Hi Mike no real suggestions for parts -- are coil packs or ignition >pickups different for the rotary or can you use conventional engine >parts? Mostly just wanted to write and say this sounds really cool and >to keep the list posted on how you do. What do you plan to do with the >engine? > >--steve > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org >> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike Yates >> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:25 AM >> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning >> >> ok here goes...I work with CAD/CAM software all day at work (aerospace >> machining) so i'm drawing up plans for a small displacement >> ~1.0 liter rotary engine 3 rotor most likely with a larger >> eccentricity than the 13b. >> >> long story short i dont want to slap a carb on this i'd like >> to go FI anyone have any ideas on what i need from the junk >> yard or where i could source parts like coil packs and an >> ignition pick-up/driver? >> >> if anyone has gibbs cam or can open .igs files i'd be happy >> to share the product of my sleepless nights. >> >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007 1:23 PM _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From clair.davis at charter.net Mon Feb 12 20:23:32 2007 From: clair.davis at charter.net (Clair Davis) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:23:32 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers - and a note on the Valiant References: <005d01c74e55$be801440$03000004@davis> <002301c74e5d$924307e0$6501a8c0@IBMm> Message-ID: <003b01c74f15$f95ede00$03000004@davis> After hitting ebay last night, it looks like the EFI manifolds for 460's are nearly a dime a dozen. They're not very sexy as manifolds go, pretty low-profile, but they only have to flow air, I suppose. Anyone know if there was a simple locked-advance distributor used on those critters? Not sure if Ford played with computer-controlled timing w/o EFI to the extent that Chrysler did in the late-70's and early 80's. I know one of those would do the trick from a spark standpoint. A note on my Valiant: It's a 69 2-door sedan, white, of course, and I'm running a 340 (5.6L) V8. The engine is pretty tame in general, it's set up to be a warm daily driver and autocross racer once I get her back on the road for good. Crane HMVV272 cam, 8.5:1 CR, headers, exhaust, the usual hot-rod tweaks. In carbed form, she made 260hp at the rear wheels, through a 4-speed trans. The EFI is based on a 7730 box with a chip provided by the folks that set up the bones of my kit. I've changed a lot of parts in the kit as I adapted it to what I wanted to achieve visually, and from a parts-replacement perspective. Mopar billet throttle body, M1 single-plane intake with injector bosses, Magnum truck fuel rails, IAC motor, MAP sensor, & TPS, adjustable FPR, Ford F-150 external fuel pump, Facet lift pump, and VW surge tank. So far, she runs well enough, but she doesn't recover well if you blip the throttle at idle, and doesn't establish an idle well when cold. I think my IAC may still not be set up right. That said, throttle response is GREAT, and once I can get her to idle with a bit more vacuum, she'll be happier, I'm sure. The cam isn't hot enough to justify the 12"hg/320kPa she's seeing now. She would idle at 13-14" with the carb, so I've got some playing to do. Clair ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike V" To: Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers > Definitely! Go for it. > The EFI 460 parts are out there, and as you say, > the GM ECM is adaptable. > Now, how is the Valliant running and which code did you use? > Staock cam? > Tell us more. > Cheers, > MV > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Clair Davis" > To: "diy_efi" > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:27 PM > Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers > > > > Now that my EFI project is somewhat functional, my Dad is asking about > > what > > it would take to inject one of his 460's. Now I'm not a Ford guy at all, > > not that I don't like them, I just never owned one so it's a matter of > > ignorance, not spite. That said, It's my understanding that multi-point > > 460's were an OEM option from the late 80's to mid-90's at least, so > > salvage > > parts should be easy to come by. Since the plumbing/wiring parts should > > be > > pretty straight-forward, I'm mostly curious about the preferred ways of > > running one of these critters might be. > > > > I suspect that Ford probably used some sort of MAF, controlled by their > > EEC-whatever box. My personal experience lies with GM ECM's, the 7730 in > > particular. I do have a couple 7727's in the garage that could be used > > for > > this job. From a pure practicality standpoint, I think I'd prefer to run > > this engine with a GM controller as well, as I have some capacity to tune > > the thing with the hardware/software I have on hand. > > > > With all that said, is there a "preferred" way to run a modified 460 using > > mostly factory injection parts? To start, this engine will be basically > > recammed, perhaps with headers and a good exhaust. I don't think this > > will > > be any sort of wild tune at all. Any suggestions or time-saving measures > > would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Clair > > 69 Valiant 340/7730 > > Fort Worth, TX > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From ebuckler at icehouse.net Mon Feb 12 23:26:50 2007 From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:26:50 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning References: <010601c74ee8$9f7bfa30$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> <002201c74f0b$27fb8ca0$77f2a5e0$@com> Message-ID: <01e001c74f2f$92bbb1e0$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> KN, Thanks for the info. Lets hope AxialVector makes something happen. It was invented by Dr. Karl Mueller at Studebaker, but Stude didn't understand what they had. I grew up in South Bend, so knew how management there could be v. ignorant. When the engine made so much torque that it broke driveshafts, they put it on the shelf - instead of making a better driveshaft and matching the engine to the car. They felt there was no point, because turbines were the darling of the industry right about then, with Exner coming out with his prototype turbine cars, etc. Ernie ----- Original Message ----- From: "KN" To: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:06 PM Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning > Reason for "DynaCam" disappearing: > http://www.axialvectorengine.com/press_release-30.html > > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On > Behalf Of Ernest Buckler > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:59 PM > To: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net; diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning > > Mike, > Do you know about the DynaCam engine? People thought it was a swash-plate > engine, but it actually has a 4-lobe sinusoidal crankshaft. 12 > double-ended > > pistons with central roller bearing push this crank around. Plate cams at > each end operated normal valves in the 6-cyl. heads. VERY torquey, very > smooth, lower parts count. FAA actually certified a 300 hp version for > use > in light aircraft AND HELICOPTERS in 1957, with a TBO of 1500 hrs, sayng > they expected that interval to be increased, as they found no appreciable > wear at 1500 hours. The Navy used a single-sided version of this as a > torpedo motor for many years, was Top Secret until turbines replaced it. > I > knew a guy who overhauled these in the practice torps, says they were > "coffee-can" size. Serious efforts to commercialize it have been made, > last I heard the Co. still existed at Torrance airport, but there was very > little about it on the web, last I looked. Rumor has many reasons for > company failure, most bad management. Cool thing is that it still uses > std. piston rings, also normal valves & springs, so no re-inventing the > wheel, as there is on Wankels, with all their side and tip sealing > challenges. > > Ernie B > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Yates" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:12 PM > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning > > > the rotary parts have no different requirements except you usually use > 2 spark plugs per chamber due to the distance the flame front has to > travel. plans at this point are for a go-kart application but who > knows i just want to experiment with larger eccentricity (i.e. > basically stroke) to see if any reasonable amount of torque can be > made from a rotary engine. > > plus they sound so damn cool at 9k rpms > > Mike > > > On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:22:03 -0600, you wrote: > >>Hi Mike no real suggestions for parts -- are coil packs or ignition >>pickups different for the rotary or can you use conventional engine >>parts? Mostly just wanted to write and say this sounds really cool and >>to keep the list posted on how you do. What do you plan to do with the >>engine? >> >>--steve >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org >>> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike Yates >>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:25 AM >>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning >>> >>> ok here goes...I work with CAD/CAM software all day at work (aerospace >>> machining) so i'm drawing up plans for a small displacement >>> ~1.0 liter rotary engine 3 rotor most likely with a larger >>> eccentricity than the 13b. >>> >>> long story short i dont want to slap a carb on this i'd like >>> to go FI anyone have any ideas on what i need from the junk >>> yard or where i could source parts like coil packs and an >>> ignition pick-up/driver? >>> >>> if anyone has gibbs cam or can open .igs files i'd be happy >>> to share the product of my sleepless nights. >>> >>> Mike >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Diy_efi mailing list >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>> > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007 > 1:23 PM > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > Scanned outbound email SVC Barracuda > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007 > 1:23 PM > > From davida1 at hiwaay.net Tue Feb 13 07:00:50 2007 From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:00:50 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] Compression pressure (off topic) Message-ID: <001d01c74f6e$feeadc30$7101a8c0@yancey.com> This is off topic but there are so many well-experienced "engine people" here it is worth asking. Is there a table or formula to get a "rough guess" about the static compression ratio of an engine, based only on measured compression pressure? This is assuming the engine is in good mechanical shape without compression leaks. In other words, if you measure 145 PSI on a compression gauge during cranking, is there a way to make an educated guess about the C/R of this engine? Certainly cam profile matters bigtime. I'm thinking about mild and stock cams here. It would make sense that dividing by atmospheric air pressure (14.7) would give you a general idea but that wouldn't take into account air cooling during compression or other losses. Any thoughts? David From niche at iinet.net.au Tue Feb 13 08:49:25 2007 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:49:25 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Compression pressure (off topic) In-Reply-To: <001d01c74f6e$feeadc30$7101a8c0@yancey.com> References: <001d01c74f6e$feeadc30$7101a8c0@yancey.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070213224656.027595e0@iinet.net.au>> I seem to recall tests should be done on a hot engine and perhaps with a teaspoon of oil first poured into chamber (to diagnose leaky rings) and when I did mine I got *voila* my indicated cr to within +- 5% based on data in my service manual ! rgds mike At 09:00 PM 2/13/07, you wrote: > This is off topic but there are so many well-experienced "engine people" here it is worth asking. > Is there a table or formula to get a "rough guess" about the static compression ratio of an engine, based only on measured compression pressure? This is assuming the engine is in good mechanical shape without compression leaks. In other words, if you measure 145 PSI on a compression gauge during cranking, is there a way to make an educated guess about the C/R of this engine? > Certainly cam profile matters bigtime. I'm thinking about mild and stock cams here. It would make sense that dividing by atmospheric air pressure (14.7) would give you a general idea but that wouldn't take into account air cooling during compression or other losses. > Any thoughts? >David > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From niche at iinet.net.au Tue Feb 13 08:52:18 2007 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:52:18 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning In-Reply-To: <002201c74f0b$27fb8ca0$77f2a5e0$@com> References: <010601c74ee8$9f7bfa30$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> <002201c74f0b$27fb8ca0$77f2a5e0$@com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070213225022.0275bcd0@iinet.net.au>> At 09:06 AM 2/13/07, you wrote: >Reason for "DynaCam" disappearing: >http://www.axialvectorengine.com/press_release-30.html Interesting, havent looked at the patent yet, not much graphic on the site, anyone have an engine animation to hand, my son would go nuts over that, hes starting to get into engines more and more and we are building a coffee cup stirling as family project on a shoestring using certain "pc consumables" ;) Regards Mike >-----Original Message----- >From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On >Behalf Of Ernest Buckler >Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:59 PM >To: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net; diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning > >Mike, >Do you know about the DynaCam engine? People thought it was a swash-plate >engine, but it actually has a 4-lobe sinusoidal crankshaft. 12 double-ended > >pistons with central roller bearing push this crank around. Plate cams at >each end operated normal valves in the 6-cyl. heads. VERY torquey, very >smooth, lower parts count. FAA actually certified a 300 hp version for use >in light aircraft AND HELICOPTERS in 1957, with a TBO of 1500 hrs, sayng >they expected that interval to be increased, as they found no appreciable >wear at 1500 hours. The Navy used a single-sided version of this as a >torpedo motor for many years, was Top Secret until turbines replaced it. I >knew a guy who overhauled these in the practice torps, says they were >"coffee-can" size. Serious efforts to commercialize it have been made, >last I heard the Co. still existed at Torrance airport, but there was very >little about it on the web, last I looked. Rumor has many reasons for >company failure, most bad management. Cool thing is that it still uses >std. piston rings, also normal valves & springs, so no re-inventing the >wheel, as there is on Wankels, with all their side and tip sealing >challenges. > >Ernie B > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mike Yates" >To: >Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:12 PM >Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning > > >the rotary parts have no different requirements except you usually use >2 spark plugs per chamber due to the distance the flame front has to >travel. plans at this point are for a go-kart application but who >knows i just want to experiment with larger eccentricity (i.e. >basically stroke) to see if any reasonable amount of torque can be >made from a rotary engine. > >plus they sound so damn cool at 9k rpms > >Mike > > >On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:22:03 -0600, you wrote: > >>Hi Mike no real suggestions for parts -- are coil packs or ignition >>pickups different for the rotary or can you use conventional engine >>parts? Mostly just wanted to write and say this sounds really cool and >>to keep the list posted on how you do. What do you plan to do with the >>engine? >> >>--steve >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org >>> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike Yates >>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:25 AM >>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning >>> >>> ok here goes...I work with CAD/CAM software all day at work (aerospace >>> machining) so i'm drawing up plans for a small displacement >>> ~1.0 liter rotary engine 3 rotor most likely with a larger >>> eccentricity than the 13b. >>> >>> long story short i dont want to slap a carb on this i'd like >>> to go FI anyone have any ideas on what i need from the junk >>> yard or where i could source parts like coil packs and an >>> ignition pick-up/driver? >>> >>> if anyone has gibbs cam or can open .igs files i'd be happy >>> to share the product of my sleepless nights. >>> >>> Mike >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Diy_efi mailing list >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>> > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007 >1:23 PM > >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > >Scanned outbound email SVC Barracuda >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com Tue Feb 13 08:28:05 2007 From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:28:05 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers - and a note on the Valiant Message-ID: I like the 2 BBl. Throttle body the 460,351 and 302 truck engines use. I'm working on using 4 of them to make a hilborn type injection set up. One TPS , Common IAC manifold. Would look Killer and not cost a lot. Thanks for sharing your project ideas. -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On Behalf Of Clair Davis Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 8:24 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers - and a note on the Valiant After hitting ebay last night, it looks like the EFI manifolds for 460's are nearly a dime a dozen. They're not very sexy as manifolds go, pretty low-profile, but they only have to flow air, I suppose. Anyone know if there was a simple locked-advance distributor used on those critters? Not sure if Ford played with computer-controlled timing w/o EFI to the extent that Chrysler did in the late-70's and early 80's. I know one of those would do the trick from a spark standpoint. A note on my Valiant: It's a 69 2-door sedan, white, of course, and I'm running a 340 (5.6L) V8. The engine is pretty tame in general, it's set up to be a warm daily driver and autocross racer once I get her back on the road for good. Crane HMVV272 cam, 8.5:1 CR, headers, exhaust, the usual hot-rod tweaks. In carbed form, she made 260hp at the rear wheels, through a 4-speed trans. The EFI is based on a 7730 box with a chip provided by the folks that set up the bones of my kit. I've changed a lot of parts in the kit as I adapted it to what I wanted to achieve visually, and from a parts-replacement perspective. Mopar billet throttle body, M1 single-plane intake with injector bosses, Magnum truck fuel rails, IAC motor, MAP sensor, & TPS, adjustable FPR, Ford F-150 external fuel pump, Facet lift pump, and VW surge tank. So far, she runs well enough, but she doesn't recover well if you blip the throttle at idle, and doesn't establish an idle well when cold. I think my IAC may still not be set up right. That said, throttle response is GREAT, and once I can get her to idle with a bit more vacuum, she'll be happier, I'm sure. The cam isn't hot enough to justify the 12"hg/320kPa she's seeing now. She would idle at 13-14" with the carb, so I've got some playing to do. Clair ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike V" To: Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:23 PM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers > Definitely! Go for it. > The EFI 460 parts are out there, and as you say, > the GM ECM is adaptable. > Now, how is the Valliant running and which code did you use? > Staock cam? > Tell us more. > Cheers, > MV > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Clair Davis" > To: "diy_efi" > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:27 PM > Subject: [Diy_efi] Ford 460 MPI and controllers > > > > Now that my EFI project is somewhat functional, my Dad is asking about > > what > > it would take to inject one of his 460's. Now I'm not a Ford guy at all, > > not that I don't like them, I just never owned one so it's a matter of > > ignorance, not spite. That said, It's my understanding that multi-point > > 460's were an OEM option from the late 80's to mid-90's at least, so > > salvage > > parts should be easy to come by. Since the plumbing/wiring parts should > > be > > pretty straight-forward, I'm mostly curious about the preferred ways of > > running one of these critters might be. > > > > I suspect that Ford probably used some sort of MAF, controlled by their > > EEC-whatever box. My personal experience lies with GM ECM's, the 7730 in > > particular. I do have a couple 7727's in the garage that could be used > > for > > this job. From a pure practicality standpoint, I think I'd prefer to run > > this engine with a GM controller as well, as I have some capacity to tune > > the thing with the hardware/software I have on hand. > > > > With all that said, is there a "preferred" way to run a modified 460 using > > mostly factory injection parts? To start, this engine will be basically > > recammed, perhaps with headers and a good exhaust. I don't think this > > will > > be any sort of wild tune at all. Any suggestions or time-saving measures > > would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Clair > > 69 Valiant 340/7730 > > Fort Worth, TX > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi ----------------------------------------- ************************************************** This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon Corporation family of Companies. 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Thank You. ************************************************** From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 13 11:44:38 2007 From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:44:38 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070213225022.0275bcd0@iinet.net.au>> References: <010601c74ee8$9f7bfa30$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> <002201c74f0b$27fb8ca0$77f2a5e0$@com> <7.0.1.0.0.20070213225022.0275bcd0@iinet.net.au>> Message-ID: Wow, thanks for all the support. My main issue as of currently is finding a reasonable (cost) gearset for the eccentric and stationary gears. I could use the wire EDM here at work to make a set but this is hardly cost effective especially if i want to make more than one. if anyone has cad/cam software and wants to look at what i've got so far virtual gibbs will output the file in lots of formats. all i have at this point is the housing and rotor shape along with the gear profiles and diameters plugged in. this however was rediculously complicated as i had to write custom macros for my CPU to program these shapes with enough accuracy to be effectively usable. Mike On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:52:18 +0800, you wrote: >At 09:06 AM 2/13/07, you wrote: >>Reason for "DynaCam" disappearing: >>http://www.axialvectorengine.com/press_release-30.html > >Interesting, havent looked at the patent yet, not much graphic on >the site, anyone have an engine animation to hand, my son would >go nuts over that, hes starting to get into engines more and more >and we are building a coffee cup stirling as family project on a shoestring >using certain "pc consumables" ;) > >Regards > >Mike > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On >>Behalf Of Ernest Buckler >>Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:59 PM >>To: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net; diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning >> >>Mike, >>Do you know about the DynaCam engine? People thought it was a swash-plate >>engine, but it actually has a 4-lobe sinusoidal crankshaft. 12 double-ended >> >>pistons with central roller bearing push this crank around. Plate cams at >>each end operated normal valves in the 6-cyl. heads. VERY torquey, very >>smooth, lower parts count. FAA actually certified a 300 hp version for use >>in light aircraft AND HELICOPTERS in 1957, with a TBO of 1500 hrs, sayng >>they expected that interval to be increased, as they found no appreciable >>wear at 1500 hours. The Navy used a single-sided version of this as a >>torpedo motor for many years, was Top Secret until turbines replaced it. I >>knew a guy who overhauled these in the practice torps, says they were >>"coffee-can" size. Serious efforts to commercialize it have been made, >>last I heard the Co. still existed at Torrance airport, but there was very >>little about it on the web, last I looked. Rumor has many reasons for >>company failure, most bad management. Cool thing is that it still uses >>std. piston rings, also normal valves & springs, so no re-inventing the >>wheel, as there is on Wankels, with all their side and tip sealing >>challenges. >> >>Ernie B >> >> >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Mike Yates" >>To: >>Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:12 PM >>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning >> >> >>the rotary parts have no different requirements except you usually use >>2 spark plugs per chamber due to the distance the flame front has to >>travel. plans at this point are for a go-kart application but who >>knows i just want to experiment with larger eccentricity (i.e. >>basically stroke) to see if any reasonable amount of torque can be >>made from a rotary engine. >> >>plus they sound so damn cool at 9k rpms >> >>Mike >> >> >>On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:22:03 -0600, you wrote: >> >>>Hi Mike no real suggestions for parts -- are coil packs or ignition >>>pickups different for the rotary or can you use conventional engine >>>parts? Mostly just wanted to write and say this sounds really cool and >>>to keep the list posted on how you do. What do you plan to do with the >>>engine? >>> >>>--steve >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org >>>> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike Yates >>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:25 AM >>>> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>>> Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning >>>> >>>> ok here goes...I work with CAD/CAM software all day at work (aerospace >>>> machining) so i'm drawing up plans for a small displacement >>>> ~1.0 liter rotary engine 3 rotor most likely with a larger >>>> eccentricity than the 13b. >>>> >>>> long story short i dont want to slap a carb on this i'd like >>>> to go FI anyone have any ideas on what i need from the junk >>>> yard or where i could source parts like coil packs and an >>>> ignition pick-up/driver? >>>> >>>> if anyone has gibbs cam or can open .igs files i'd be happy >>>> to share the product of my sleepless nights. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Diy_efi mailing list >>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Diy_efi mailing list >>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007 >>1:23 PM >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Diy_efi mailing list >>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> >> >>Scanned outbound email SVC Barracuda >>_______________________________________________ >>Diy_efi mailing list >>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > >Regards from > > >Mike >Perth, Western Australia >VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed ! >Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars >http://niche.iinet.net.au >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Tue Feb 13 11:50:00 2007 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:50:00 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:52 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning > > At 09:06 AM 2/13/07, you wrote: > >Reason for "DynaCam" disappearing: > >http://www.axialvectorengine.com/press_release-30.html > > Interesting, havent looked at the patent yet, not much > graphic on the site, anyone have an engine animation to hand, > my son would go nuts over that, hes starting to get into > engines more and more and we are building a coffee cup > stirling as family project on a shoestring using certain "pc > consumables" ;) PC as in personal computer? How do you build a stirling out of PC parts? While we're talking about stirling, has anyone ever seen a large-ish stirling, like in the 5-10kW range? --steve From Steve.Ravet at arm.com Tue Feb 13 12:12:15 2007 From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:12:15 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike Yates > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:45 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning > > if anyone has cad/cam software and wants to look at what i've > got so far virtual gibbs will output the file in lots of formats. I'd like to look at them but don't have any cad software. Any chance of exporting to gif or something else viewable in a browser? If so (or even if not) feel free to start a project page on the diy-efi twiki. It's really easy. --steve From airhawk at hawkgt.net Tue Feb 13 23:44:16 2007 From: airhawk at hawkgt.net (The AirHawk) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:44:16 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning References: Message-ID: <005801c74ffb$30fcfbe0$0202a8c0@MajorDisaster> There are a few plugins to allow viewing of .dwg files for IE, if I recall correctly. If not, Informative Graphics (among a few others) has a free .dwg viewer: http://www.infograph.com/products/dwgviewer/ I've also used a product called "VoloView" before. -Scott > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org > [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Mike Yates > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:45 AM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning > > if anyone has cad/cam software and wants to look at what i've > got so far virtual gibbs will output the file in lots of formats. I'd like to look at them but don't have any cad software. Any chance of exporting to gif or something else viewable in a browser? If so (or even if not) feel free to start a project page on the diy-efi twiki. It's really easy. --steve From niche at iinet.net.au Wed Feb 14 09:38:46 2007 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 23:38:46 +0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070214233700.027583a0@iinet.net.au>> At 01:50 AM 2/14/07, you wrote: >> Interesting, havent looked at the patent yet, not much >> graphic on the site, anyone have an engine animation to hand, >> my son would go nuts over that, hes starting to get into >> engines more and more and we are building a coffee cup >> stirling as family project on a shoestring using certain "pc >> consumables" ;) > >PC as in personal computer? How do you build a stirling out of PC >parts? Thought that would attract attention ;-) PC consumables as in DVD spindle cases, plus a few other oddments, might even be finished this coming w/end, will post pics if we get some motion, >While we're talking about stirling, has anyone ever seen a large-ish >stirling, like in the 5-10kW range? put down on the me too list, along with the any large avec's Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Thu Feb 15 01:41:25 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 23:41:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Rotary tuning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <843201.92920.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Mike Yates wrote: > the rotary parts have no different requirements > except you usually use 2 spark plugs per chamber > due to the distance the flame front has to travel. Actually, the trailing plugs are almost entirely for emissions; you can disconnect them and the car will behave as if all four were connected; there's basically no perceivable difference in power or fuel economy with leading plugs only. | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 17 11:21:22 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:21:22 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Data logger/Interceptor progress Message-ID: <1171732882.25337.19.camel@wopr.donegan.org> The CPU board of the data logger/interceptor went off to fab today. I expect 20(ea) prototypes in ~2 weeks. The 2nd board which has the high res analog/digital converters (for input) and the hi-res digital/analog converters (for spoofing the stock ECM) is 90% completed. I expect to send it to fab perhaps next week. The final board of the 3 board sandwich should also be done next week. This system will allow you to log any/all data from your vehicle and 'lie' to your stock ECM as desired :-) From steve at donegan.org Sun Feb 18 14:18:38 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:18:38 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] More ECU progress Message-ID: <1171829918.25337.39.camel@wopr.donegan.org> The data logger CPU board went off to fab this week. Ian did some work on the web page www.openmotor.org and we have a few files up for people to look at. The ADC/DAC sensor input/spoof output board is almost complete and will be going to fab most likely by Tuesday. The 2 board set will comprise a nice, small, cheap data logger/interceptor. Useful on it's own. The next steps will be to build the motherboard which will hold those boards and the ARM main CPU and ION sensor boards. Work begins :-) From yakir.green at intel.com Sun Feb 18 14:36:36 2007 From: yakir.green at intel.com (Green, Yakir) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:36:36 +0200 Subject: [Diy_efi] More ECU progress In-Reply-To: <1171829918.25337.39.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <875C321F70C64D43957EE7FB4C73CB83028E0045@hasmsx413.ger.corp.intel.com> How does one get a set of these boards? Yakir -----Original Message----- From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Steven P. Donegan Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:19 PM To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subject: [Diy_efi] More ECU progress The data logger CPU board went off to fab this week. Ian did some work on the web page www.openmotor.org and we have a few files up for people to look at. The ADC/DAC sensor input/spoof output board is almost complete and will be going to fab most likely by Tuesday. The 2 board set will comprise a nice, small, cheap data logger/interceptor. Useful on it's own. The next steps will be to build the motherboard which will hold those boards and the ARM main CPU and ION sensor boards. Work begins :-) _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From steve at donegan.org Sun Feb 18 14:51:35 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:51:35 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] More ECU progress In-Reply-To: <875C321F70C64D43957EE7FB4C73CB83028E0045@hasmsx413.ger.corp.intel.com> References: <875C321F70C64D43957EE7FB4C73CB83028E0045@hasmsx413.ger.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <1171831895.25337.48.camel@wopr.donegan.org> The CPU board (see the files section on www.openmotor.org for PDF's of it) should be back from fab in ~2 weeks. I ordered 20 of them. The daughter board I will order most likely day after tomorrow - 20 each to match the CPU board order. After I have them you could certainly pick up a pair if you wish - the software I have been working on all along in parallel with board design... The DL pdf's are the CPU, the DL-IO pdf's are the daughter board. They are both the same size - and will fit in a Jameco cast aluminum enclosure of roughly 4.5 x 2.5 inches. On Sun, 2007-02-18 at 22:36 +0200, Green, Yakir wrote: > How does one get a set of these boards? > > Yakir > -----Original Message----- > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] > On Behalf Of Steven P. Donegan > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:19 PM > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subject: [Diy_efi] More ECU progress > > The data logger CPU board went off to fab this week. Ian did some work > on the web page www.openmotor.org and we have a few files up for people > to look at. The ADC/DAC sensor input/spoof output board is almost > complete and will be going to fab most likely by Tuesday. > > The 2 board set will comprise a nice, small, cheap data > logger/interceptor. Useful on it's own. The next steps will be to build > the motherboard which will hold those boards and the ARM main CPU and > ION sensor boards. Work begins :-) > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From steve at donegan.org Fri Feb 23 21:29:02 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:29:02 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Progress In-Reply-To: <875C321F70C64D43957EE7FB4C73CB83028E0045@hasmsx413.ger.corp.intel.com> References: <875C321F70C64D43957EE7FB4C73CB83028E0045@hasmsx413.ger.corp.intel.com> Message-ID: <1172287742.24962.5.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Ian Molton has had some great ideas for the ECU which is the follow-on to the Data Logger design. As those jell a bit we might just see an ECU the size of a cigarette pack :-) (US or UK version) :-) The Data Logger's CPU boards should be here in about a week. The ADC/DAC/Pulse input daughterboard will go to fab this week. This list has been awfully quiet lately... From ebuckler at icehouse.net Sat Feb 24 01:20:45 2007 From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:20:45 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Progress References: <875C321F70C64D43957EE7FB4C73CB83028E0045@hasmsx413.ger.corp.intel.com> <1172287742.24962.5.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <013b01c757e4$4cd2ec80$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> Hi, Steven, I think it's a case of the winter snows melting, lotta guys are out in the shop building, or even, hey, racing, or driving... I dunno, I mostly lurk on this site, I own a couple now-classic CX 500 and CX 650 Turbo EFI Honda motorcycles with the no-longer-available ECUs - which were never tuneable in the first place because Honda would never release the code. Looking forward to your Data-Logger/ECU as a solution to the above problem. I also have a Yam Venture V-4 project bike that's going to be EFI'd soon, because the CV carbs are very expensive to rebuild and tune. Ernest Buckler Spokane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven P. Donegan" To: Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 7:29 PM Subject: [Diy_efi] Progress > Ian Molton has had some great ideas for the ECU which is the follow-on > to the Data Logger design. As those jell a bit we might just see an ECU > the size of a cigarette pack :-) (US or UK version) :-) > > The Data Logger's CPU boards should be here in about a week. The > ADC/DAC/Pulse input daughterboard will go to fab this week. > > This list has been awfully quiet lately... > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/699 - Release Date: 2/23/2007 > 1:26 PM > > From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 24 07:48:42 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 05:48:42 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Progress In-Reply-To: <013b01c757e4$4cd2ec80$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> References: <875C321F70C64D43957EE7FB4C73CB83028E0045@hasmsx413.ger.corp.intel.com> <1172287742.24962.5.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <013b01c757e4$4cd2ec80$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d> Message-ID: <1172324922.24962.9.camel@wopr.donegan.org> And the 'small as a pack of cigarette comment was for you and Adam :-) as well as the rest of us with motorcycles we would like to EFI ... On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 23:20 -0800, Ernest Buckler wrote: > Hi, Steven, > I think it's a case of the winter snows melting, lotta guys are out in the > shop building, or even, hey, racing, or driving... I dunno, I mostly lurk > on this site, I own a couple now-classic CX 500 and CX 650 Turbo EFI Honda > motorcycles with the no-longer-available ECUs - which were never tuneable in > the first place because Honda would never release the code. Looking forward > to your Data-Logger/ECU as a solution to the above problem. I also have a > Yam Venture V-4 project bike that's going to be EFI'd soon, because the CV > carbs are very expensive to rebuild and tune. > Ernest Buckler > Spokane > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven P. Donegan" > To: > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 7:29 PM > Subject: [Diy_efi] Progress > > > > Ian Molton has had some great ideas for the ECU which is the follow-on > > to the Data Logger design. As those jell a bit we might just see an ECU > > the size of a cigarette pack :-) (US or UK version) :-) > > > > The Data Logger's CPU boards should be here in about a week. The > > ADC/DAC/Pulse input daughterboard will go to fab this week. > > > > This list has been awfully quiet lately... > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/699 - Release Date: 2/23/2007 > > 1:26 PM > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Sat Feb 24 11:13:09 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 09:13:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Progress In-Reply-To: <1172324922.24962.9.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <452944.80484.qm@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > And the 'small as a pack of cigarette comment was > for you and Adam :-) > as well as the rest of us with motorcycles we would > like to EFI ... I have so many small projects I sometimes don't connect the dots as quickly as I should. I sourced a set of R6 throttle bodies a while back, with MAP sensor and injectors, with the idea to fuel inject my Zephyr (people are ALWAYS asking me why I don't ride a fuel injected motorcycle, because of the book)... And I have a Euro market fuel tank that has a cutout for a fuel level sender that could probably be adapted for a small in-tank fuel pump... For motorcycles, there needs to be a very good algorithm/map for changes in Vbatt. While newer motorcycle typically use a regular car-type alternator that charges at idle, older bikes use a stator and rotating magnet setup (in most cases) that functions like a generator... Usually you have to rev to 3k or more to get the system to charge, and at idle voltage drops below 13.8v (which seems to be the typical charging voltage when the electrical system is in good shape). I have a GM MAF sensor on the way, incidentally, and I need to get with you about setting the data logger board up for data acquisition for the flapper replacement project. Once I have everything dialed in, I'll let you post the code for anyone else who wants to replace an L-Jetronic (or equivalent, i.e. Jaguar/Lucas, Mazda/ND, Kawasaki/ND, and Datsun/ND) flapper with a hot-wire MAF. We'll also need to talk connectors. Hit me up off-list and we'll coordinate. Did you get a chance to look at any of the ion sensing material I uploaded to the private file area on the website? I'm jazzed for DIY ion sensing! | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 24 12:14:47 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 10:14:47 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Progress In-Reply-To: <452944.80484.qm@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <452944.80484.qm@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1172340887.24962.21.camel@wopr.donegan.org> I did indeed look at the ION stuff - I had found a very simple current mirror based circuit which I am fabbing with a 400K SPS ADC converter for the project. The power supply I use was one I had custom made - 5V to 290V 3W level. Absolutely noise free (OK like .001 or so) so we won't have to filter anything from the current mirror readings. Ian and I are leaning towards an FPGA, perhaps large enough for DSP, a CPU core etc - ie almost a 1 chip ECU :-) The power supply I designed for this assumes than anything coming from the vehicle battery is garbage. It should be able to handle just about anything from 9V on the low side to 200V spikes on the high side and keep on ticking :-) Now if the battery doesn't have enough juice to fire the injectors or ignition that is a whole different problem. The system as designed now does monitor the battery input voltage after it's surge protected - so in theory we could adjust injector and ignition dwell a bit to make up for a tired system... The Interceptor is housed/will be housed in a jameco #11965 cast aluminum box - that should be small enough to find a home in any car and in most motorcycles. That project will not have enough CPU to do anything other than log/spoof. The ARM based (or CPU core on FPGA based) design I'm working on with Ian is a whole different thing entirely. That ECU will be able to do just about anything that can be imagined :-) On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 09:13 -0800, Adam Wade wrote: > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > > > And the 'small as a pack of cigarette comment was > > for you and Adam :-) > > as well as the rest of us with motorcycles we would > > like to EFI ... > > I have so many small projects I sometimes don't > connect the dots as quickly as I should. I sourced a > set of R6 throttle bodies a while back, with MAP > sensor and injectors, with the idea to fuel inject my > Zephyr (people are ALWAYS asking me why I don't ride a > fuel injected motorcycle, because of the book)... And > I have a Euro market fuel tank that has a cutout for a > fuel level sender that could probably be adapted for a > small in-tank fuel pump... > > For motorcycles, there needs to be a very good > algorithm/map for changes in Vbatt. While newer > motorcycle typically use a regular car-type alternator > that charges at idle, older bikes use a stator and > rotating magnet setup (in most cases) that functions > like a generator... Usually you have to rev to 3k or > more to get the system to charge, and at idle voltage > drops below 13.8v (which seems to be the typical > charging voltage when the electrical system is in good > shape). > > I have a GM MAF sensor on the way, incidentally, and I > need to get with you about setting the data logger > board up for data acquisition for the flapper > replacement project. Once I have everything dialed > in, I'll let you post the code for anyone else who > wants to replace an L-Jetronic (or equivalent, i.e. > Jaguar/Lucas, Mazda/ND, Kawasaki/ND, and Datsun/ND) > flapper with a hot-wire MAF. We'll also need to talk > connectors. Hit me up off-list and we'll coordinate. > > Did you get a chance to look at any of the ion sensing > material I uploaded to the private file area on the > website? I'm jazzed for DIY ion sensing! > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate > in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367 > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From j_holland at btopenworld.com Sat Feb 24 16:41:30 2007 From: j_holland at btopenworld.com (James Holland) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:41:30 -0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. Donegan) Message-ID: I have been following this project with some interest. I had a look on the website but you seem to have the same schematic for the datalogger and I/O board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't been posted. I've designed electronics for military automotive issues so I'm aware of the problems of designing for this kind of environment. I like the idea of this but I think that you will have some noise issues with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks a good ground plane and the decoupling could do with being improved, all ICs should have at least a 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The PIC should have two, one on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the PIC doesn't have a separate Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the analogue and digital returns are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should really have anti-aliasing filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do and only the C really needs to be up by the input. The R would also provide some input protection to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good idea. The PIC is pretty well protected but voltages outside of its supply rails throw the A/D readings all over the place. It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the reference for the A/D, what supply are the I/O lines referenced to? The digital I/O could do with some resistance in line as well, a couple of hundred ohms would provide output short circuit protection and give some filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs are coming off another board then you could see some ringing on them, that could be more of a problem on PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's good. Automotive supplies are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I design has to be protected against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves 100V for 100mS. You could reduce the protection needed by using a regulator specifically designed for automotive use, there are a few of them out there. I have used the LM2940S in the past and that works well but I think the best spec only comes in an SMD package. I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see any reason why it won't work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution by having to digitally filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a few board redesigns along the way. The Microchip website has a very good on line seminar about PCB layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth checking out. HTH James From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 24 17:24:10 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 15:24:10 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. Donegan) In-Reply-To: <1172357062.24962.40.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <1172357062.24962.40.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <1172359450.24962.63.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Thank you profusely for your feedback! I accept any/all (especially knowledgeable) inputs. I have so far done the PIC based parts with only input protection modeled on a successful project - Megasquirt - so any failings my simple design likely is the same as that design which is in use all over :-) That is not a disregard in any way of your input - being an engineer I prefer massive overkill on my designs and I will take every point you've raised and see what can be done to either eliminate it or make the decision that it enough of a boundry condition as to not likely apply for our intended usage. And I don't know about what is currently present on the web - but the power supply has a 1 farad cap about .5 inches from the chips on the CPU - if that isn't enough I don't know what is :-) The 'daughter card' has full clamping on all inputs and all of it's inputs to the CPU card are via SPI - all inputs on the daughter card have 5.1V zener, and reverse voltage input protection - although in any normal auto usage the reverse stuff is overkill. The latest rendition of the power supply has MOV's and 200V bridge followed by MOV's to make sure any rational DC input is dealt with - and lots of totally irrational ones too I expect. Given this particular design is a Data Logger first, and an ECU Interceptor/spoofer second I think it may be durable enough - but I will take every point you've raised and evaluate it and modify the boards from that data. Going from a 2 side board to a 4 side board to have the various signal/ground/etc separated will make the board itself fairly pricey - that will have to be driven by some level of actual board/system failure -vs- 2 layer - here you need to convince me :-) Not sure if I touched on this - but the daughter board which provides all I/O is .20 in away and sandwiched via your usual header things - so I don't think any ringing will occur even at max frequency likely to be present. And PLEASE keep up the feedback!!!!!!! Oh - funny - the PS I designed for the actual ECU has MOV in front, 200 PIV bridge, MOV in back and then the rest of my design including a zener clamp in front of and behind the regulator - and regulator is able to handle 2X 'normal' input voltage :-) There is no more enjoyable overkill than massive overkill :-) Given the whole Interceptor fits in a cast aluminum box - hell it may even survive some level of EMP - the rest of the vehicle sure won't... On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 22:41 +0000, James Holland wrote: > I have been following this project with some interest. I had a look on the > website but you seem to have the same schematic for the datalogger and I/O > board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't been posted. I've designed > electronics for military automotive issues so I'm aware of the problems of > designing for this kind of environment. > I like the idea of this but I think that you will have some noise issues > with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks a good ground plane and > the decoupling could do with being improved, all ICs should have at least a > 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The PIC should have two, one > on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the PIC doesn't have a separate > Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the analogue and digital returns > are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should really have anti-aliasing > filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do and only the C really > needs to be up by the input. The R would also provide some input protection > to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good idea. The PIC is pretty > well protected but voltages outside of its supply rails throw the A/D > readings all over the place. > It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the reference for the A/D, what > supply are the I/O lines referenced to? > The digital I/O could do with some resistance in line as well, a couple of > hundred ohms would provide output short circuit protection and give some > filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs are coming off another board > then you could see some ringing on them, that could be more of a problem on > PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. > The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's good. Automotive supplies > are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I design has to be protected > against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves 100V for 100mS. You could > reduce the protection needed by using a regulator specifically designed for > automotive use, there are a few of them out there. I have used the LM2940S > in the past and that works well but I think the best spec only comes in an > SMD package. > I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see any reason why it won't > work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution by having to digitally > filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a few board redesigns along > the way. The Microchip website has a very good on line seminar about PCB > layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth checking out. > HTH > James > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From ScottyGrover at aol.com Sat Feb 24 17:46:25 2007 From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:46:25 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. Donegan) Message-ID: In a message dated 2/24/2007 2:41:57 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, j_holland at btopenworld.com writes: I have been following this project with some interest. I had a look on the website but you seem to have the same schematic for the datalogger and I/O board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't been posted. I've designed electronics for military automotive issues so I'm aware of the problems of designing for this kind of environment. I like the idea of this but I think that you will have some noise issues with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks a good ground plane and the decoupling could do with being improved, all ICs should have at least a 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The PIC should have two, one on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the PIC doesn't have a separate Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the analogue and digital returns are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should really have anti-aliasing filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do and only the C really needs to be up by the input. The R would also provide some input protection to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good idea. The PIC is pretty well protected but voltages outside of its supply rails throw the A/D readings all over the place. It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the reference for the A/D, what supply are the I/O lines referenced to? The digital I/O could do with some resistance in line as well, a couple of hundred ohms would provide output short circuit protection and give some filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs are coming off another board then you could see some ringing on them, that could be more of a problem on PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's good. Automotive supplies are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I design has to be protected against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves 100V for 100mS. You could reduce the protection needed by using a regulator specifically designed for automotive use, there are a few of them out there. I have used the LM2940S in the past and that works well but I think the best spec only comes in an SMD package. I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see any reason why it won't work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution by having to digitally filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a few board redesigns along the way. The Microchip website has a very good on line seminar about PCB layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth checking out. HTH James James, Can you, if this is possible, give us a few tips re: the basics of designing circuit boards for the high-temp. environment such as military and/or automotive? Scotty


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. From steve at donegan.org Sat Feb 24 18:09:53 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:09:53 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. Donegan) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1172362193.24962.70.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Not sure if my response cam across properly - but I really DO want input on harsh environment design... On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 18:46 -0500, ScottyGrover at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/24/2007 2:41:57 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > j_holland at btopenworld.com writes: > > I have been following this project with some interest. I had a look on the > website but you seem to have the same schematic for the datalogger and I/O > board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't been posted. I've designed > electronics for military automotive issues so I'm aware of the problems of > designing for this kind of environment. > I like the idea of this but I think that you will have some noise issues > with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks a good ground plane and > the decoupling could do with being improved, all ICs should have at least a > 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The PIC should have two, one > on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the PIC doesn't have a separate > Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the analogue and digital returns > are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should really have anti-aliasing > filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do and only the C really > needs to be up by the input. The R would also provide some input protection > to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good idea. The PIC is pretty > well protected but voltages outside of its supply rails throw the A/D > readings all over the place. > It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the reference for the A/D, what > supply are the I/O lines referenced to? > The digital I/O could do with some resistance in line as well, a couple of > hundred ohms would provide output short circuit protection and give some > filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs are coming off another board > then you could see some ringing on them, that could be more of a problem on > PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. > The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's good. Automotive supplies > are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I design has to be protected > against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves 100V for 100mS. You could > reduce the protection needed by using a regulator specifically designed for > automotive use, there are a few of them out there. I have used the LM2940S > in the past and that works well but I think the best spec only comes in an > SMD package. > I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see any reason why it won't > work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution by having to digitally > filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a few board redesigns along > the way. The Microchip website has a very good on line seminar about PCB > layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth checking out. > HTH > James > > > > > James, > Can you, if this is possible, give us a few tips re: the basics of designing > circuit boards for the high-temp. environment such as military and/or > automotive? > Scotty >


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AOL now offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From bill.washington at nec.com.au Sun Feb 25 18:33:05 2007 From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:33:05 +1100 Subject: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design In-Reply-To: <20070225180020.C0EC73B6C0@ns2.nec.com.au> References: <20070225180020.C0EC73B6C0@ns2.nec.com.au> Message-ID: <45E22AC1.1010101@nec.com.au> James, You said "all ICs should have at least a100uF cap as close as possible to the supply " do you mean 100nF? Steven, In PCB layout it is good practise to have a large reservoir Cap (your 1 Farad) close by plus smaller (ceramic 100nF and sometimes 10nF as well) caps right on the IC supply pins (as close as you can get them). The reason for this is that the large reservoir cap has some inductance and resistance in its construction which slows down its response time - the ceramic Caps (which very low ESR) on the IC supply pins handle the sharp rising and falling edge surges and minimise ground bounce which can cause all sorts of problems .... Regards Bill > > Subject: > [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. Donegan) > From: > "James Holland" > Date: > Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:41:30 -0000 > To: > > > To: > > > > I have been following this project with some interest. I had a look on the > website but you seem to have the same schematic for the datalogger and I/O > board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't been posted. I've designed > electronics for military automotive issues so I'm aware of the problems of > designing for this kind of environment. > I like the idea of this but I think that you will have some noise issues > with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks a good ground plane and > the decoupling could do with being improved, all ICs should have at least a > 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The PIC should have two, one > on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the PIC doesn't have a separate > Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the analogue and digital returns > are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should really have anti-aliasing > filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do and only the C really > needs to be up by the input. The R would also provide some input protection > to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good idea. The PIC is pretty > well protected but voltages outside of its supply rails throw the A/D > readings all over the place. > It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the reference for the A/D, what > supply are the I/O lines referenced to? > The digital I/O could do with some resistance in line as well, a couple of > hundred ohms would provide output short circuit protection and give some > filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs are coming off another board > then you could see some ringing on them, that could be more of a problem on > PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. > The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's good. Automotive supplies > are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I design has to be protected > against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves 100V for 100mS. You could > reduce the protection needed by using a regulator specifically designed for > automotive use, there are a few of them out there. I have used the LM2940S > in the past and that works well but I think the best spec only comes in an > SMD package. > I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see any reason why it won't > work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution by having to digitally > filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a few board redesigns along > the way. The Microchip website has a very good on line seminar about PCB > layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth checking out. > HTH > James > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From steve at donegan.org Sun Feb 25 19:38:47 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:38:47 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design In-Reply-To: <45E22AC1.1010101@nec.com.au> References: <20070225180020.C0EC73B6C0@ns2.nec.com.au> <45E22AC1.1010101@nec.com.au> Message-ID: <1172453927.11459.4.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Yes, and thanks - I understand - usually I do a .1 or .01 on every IC supply pin - I have been a bit lazy on the data logger design as there are only 3 IC's on the board - I believe (schematic not at hand) 2 of them do have bypass caps. That said - as much as I have been doing electronics/etc for 30 years I am not a professional designer - I believe James may be - so anything he says I will listen to and take into consideration. And a 100 uf cap, even at 5V would be a tad large next to every IC :-) On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 11:33 +1100, Bill Washington wrote: > James, > You said "all ICs should have at least a100uF cap as close as > possible to the supply " do you mean 100nF? > Steven, > In PCB layout it is good practise to have a large reservoir Cap > (your 1 Farad) close by plus smaller (ceramic 100nF and sometimes 10nF > as well) caps right on the IC supply pins (as close as you can get > them). The reason for this is that the large reservoir cap has some > inductance and resistance in its construction which slows down its > response time - the ceramic Caps (which very low ESR) on the IC supply > pins handle the sharp rising and falling edge surges and minimise ground > bounce which can cause all sorts of problems .... > Regards > Bill > > > > Subject: > > [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. Donegan) > > From: > > "James Holland" > > Date: > > Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:41:30 -0000 > > To: > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > I have been following this project with some interest. I had a look on the > > website but you seem to have the same schematic for the datalogger and I/O > > board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't been posted. I've designed > > electronics for military automotive issues so I'm aware of the problems of > > designing for this kind of environment. > > I like the idea of this but I think that you will have some noise issues > > with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks a good ground plane and > > the decoupling could do with being improved, all ICs should have at least a > > 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The PIC should have two, one > > on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the PIC doesn't have a separate > > Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the analogue and digital returns > > are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should really have anti-aliasing > > filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do and only the C really > > needs to be up by the input. The R would also provide some input protection > > to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good idea. The PIC is pretty > > well protected but voltages outside of its supply rails throw the A/D > > readings all over the place. > > It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the reference for the A/D, what > > supply are the I/O lines referenced to? > > The digital I/O could do with some resistance in line as well, a couple of > > hundred ohms would provide output short circuit protection and give some > > filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs are coming off another board > > then you could see some ringing on them, that could be more of a problem on > > PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. > > The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's good. Automotive supplies > > are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I design has to be protected > > against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves 100V for 100mS. You could > > reduce the protection needed by using a regulator specifically designed for > > automotive use, there are a few of them out there. I have used the LM2940S > > in the past and that works well but I think the best spec only comes in an > > SMD package. > > I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see any reason why it won't > > work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution by having to digitally > > filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a few board redesigns along > > the way. The Microchip website has a very good on line seminar about PCB > > layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth checking out. > > HTH > > James > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From heitorlima at yahoo.com Sun Feb 25 19:50:09 2007 From: heitorlima at yahoo.com (Heitor Lima) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:50:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design In-Reply-To: <45E22AC1.1010101@nec.com.au> Message-ID: <654248.82739.qm@web58709.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Bill We need to use two capacitors , one big as 100uF , electrolytic type and another one , 100nF , ceramic type. Regards Heitor --- Bill Washington wrote: > James, > You said "all ICs should have at least a100uF > cap as close as > possible to the supply " do you mean 100nF? > Steven, > In PCB layout it is good practise to have a > large reservoir Cap > (your 1 Farad) close by plus smaller (ceramic 100nF > and sometimes 10nF > as well) caps right on the IC supply pins (as close > as you can get > them). The reason for this is that the large > reservoir cap has some > inductance and resistance in its construction which > slows down its > response time - the ceramic Caps (which very low > ESR) on the IC supply > pins handle the sharp rising and falling edge surges > and minimise ground > bounce which can cause all sorts of problems .... > Regards > Bill > > > > Subject: > > [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. > Donegan) > > From: > > "James Holland" > > Date: > > Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:41:30 -0000 > > To: > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > I have been following this project with some > interest. I had a look on the > > website but you seem to have the same schematic > for the datalogger and I/O > > board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't > been posted. I've designed > > electronics for military automotive issues so I'm > aware of the problems of > > designing for this kind of environment. > > I like the idea of this but I think that you will > have some noise issues > > with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks > a good ground plane and > > the decoupling could do with being improved, all > ICs should have at least a > > 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The > PIC should have two, one > > on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the > PIC doesn't have a separate > > Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the > analogue and digital returns > > are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should > really have anti-aliasing > > filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do > and only the C really > > needs to be up by the input. The R would also > provide some input protection > > to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good > idea. The PIC is pretty > > well protected but voltages outside of its supply > rails throw the A/D > > readings all over the place. > > It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the > reference for the A/D, what > > supply are the I/O lines referenced to? > > The digital I/O could do with some resistance in > line as well, a couple of > > hundred ohms would provide output short circuit > protection and give some > > filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs > are coming off another board > > then you could see some ringing on them, that > could be more of a problem on > > PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. > > The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's > good. Automotive supplies > > are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I > design has to be protected > > against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves > 100V for 100mS. You could > > reduce the protection needed by using a regulator > specifically designed for > > automotive use, there are a few of them out there. > I have used the LM2940S > > in the past and that works well but I think the > best spec only comes in an > > SMD package. > > I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see > any reason why it won't > > work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution > by having to digitally > > filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a > few board redesigns along > > the way. The Microchip website has a very good on > line seminar about PCB > > layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth > checking out. > > HTH > > James > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From steve at donegan.org Sun Feb 25 20:38:53 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:38:53 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design In-Reply-To: <654248.82739.qm@web58709.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <654248.82739.qm@web58709.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1172457533.11459.9.camel@wopr.donegan.org> We have a 1 farad - ie 10x or more your need in front of this already :-) On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 17:50 -0800, Heitor Lima wrote: > Bill > > We need to use two capacitors , one big as 100uF , > electrolytic type and another one , 100nF , ceramic > type. > Regards > > Heitor > > > --- Bill Washington > wrote: > > > James, > > You said "all ICs should have at least a100uF > > cap as close as > > possible to the supply " do you mean 100nF? > > Steven, > > In PCB layout it is good practise to have a > > large reservoir Cap > > (your 1 Farad) close by plus smaller (ceramic 100nF > > and sometimes 10nF > > as well) caps right on the IC supply pins (as close > > as you can get > > them). The reason for this is that the large > > reservoir cap has some > > inductance and resistance in its construction which > > slows down its > > response time - the ceramic Caps (which very low > > ESR) on the IC supply > > pins handle the sharp rising and falling edge surges > > and minimise ground > > bounce which can cause all sorts of problems .... > > Regards > > Bill > > > > > > Subject: > > > [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. > > Donegan) > > > From: > > > "James Holland" > > > Date: > > > Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:41:30 -0000 > > > To: > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been following this project with some > > interest. I had a look on the > > > website but you seem to have the same schematic > > for the datalogger and I/O > > > board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't > > been posted. I've designed > > > electronics for military automotive issues so I'm > > aware of the problems of > > > designing for this kind of environment. > > > I like the idea of this but I think that you will > > have some noise issues > > > with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks > > a good ground plane and > > > the decoupling could do with being improved, all > > ICs should have at least a > > > 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The > > PIC should have two, one > > > on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the > > PIC doesn't have a separate > > > Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the > > analogue and digital returns > > > are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should > > really have anti-aliasing > > > filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do > > and only the C really > > > needs to be up by the input. The R would also > > provide some input protection > > > to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good > > idea. The PIC is pretty > > > well protected but voltages outside of its supply > > rails throw the A/D > > > readings all over the place. > > > It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the > > reference for the A/D, what > > > supply are the I/O lines referenced to? > > > The digital I/O could do with some resistance in > > line as well, a couple of > > > hundred ohms would provide output short circuit > > protection and give some > > > filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs > > are coming off another board > > > then you could see some ringing on them, that > > could be more of a problem on > > > PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. > > > The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's > > good. Automotive supplies > > > are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I > > design has to be protected > > > against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves > > 100V for 100mS. You could > > > reduce the protection needed by using a regulator > > specifically designed for > > > automotive use, there are a few of them out there. > > I have used the LM2940S > > > in the past and that works well but I think the > > best spec only comes in an > > > SMD package. > > > I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see > > any reason why it won't > > > work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution > > by having to digitally > > > filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a > > few board redesigns along > > > the way. The Microchip website has a very good on > > line seminar about PCB > > > layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth > > checking out. > > > HTH > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: > > http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for earth-friendly autos? > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From kaizen__ at hotmail.com Mon Feb 26 00:17:59 2007 From: kaizen__ at hotmail.com (Bevan Weiss) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:17:59 +1300 Subject: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design In-Reply-To: <1172457533.11459.9.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <654248.82739.qm@web58709.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <1172457533.11459.9.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45E27B97.1020803@hotmail.com> What's the ESR and ESL of the 1 farad capacitor? I generally only use around 1 or 2 1000uF caps for bulk decoupling. Then 1uF or 2u2 ceramic 0805 capacitors for more local decoupling. Finally 100nF 0805 ceramics for chip level decoupling. Does the board have a TVS device on the power supply input? It also assume it is fused suitably, preferably with a quick blow fuse. Bevan > We have a 1 farad - ie 10x or more your need in front of this > already :-) > > On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 17:50 -0800, Heitor Lima wrote: > >> Bill >> >> We need to use two capacitors , one big as 100uF , >> electrolytic type and another one , 100nF , ceramic >> type. >> Regards >> >> Heitor >> >> >> --- Bill Washington >> wrote: >> >> >>> James, >>> You said "all ICs should have at least a100uF >>> cap as close as >>> possible to the supply " do you mean 100nF? >>> Steven, >>> In PCB layout it is good practise to have a >>> large reservoir Cap >>> (your 1 Farad) close by plus smaller (ceramic 100nF >>> and sometimes 10nF >>> as well) caps right on the IC supply pins (as close >>> as you can get >>> them). The reason for this is that the large >>> reservoir cap has some >>> inductance and resistance in its construction which >>> slows down its >>> response time - the ceramic Caps (which very low >>> ESR) on the IC supply >>> pins handle the sharp rising and falling edge surges >>> and minimise ground >>> bounce which can cause all sorts of problems .... >>> Regards >>> Bill >>> >>>> Subject: >>>> [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. >>>> >>> Donegan) >>> >>>> From: >>>> "James Holland" >>>> Date: >>>> Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:41:30 -0000 >>>> To: >>>> >>>> >>>> To: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I have been following this project with some >>>> >>> interest. I had a look on the >>> >>>> website but you seem to have the same schematic >>>> >>> for the datalogger and I/O >>> >>>> board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't >>>> >>> been posted. I've designed >>> >>>> electronics for military automotive issues so I'm >>>> >>> aware of the problems of >>> >>>> designing for this kind of environment. >>>> I like the idea of this but I think that you will >>>> >>> have some noise issues >>> >>>> with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks >>>> >>> a good ground plane and >>> >>>> the decoupling could do with being improved, all >>>> >>> ICs should have at least a >>> >>>> 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The >>>> >>> PIC should have two, one >>> >>>> on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the >>>> >>> PIC doesn't have a separate >>> >>>> Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the >>>> >>> analogue and digital returns >>> >>>> are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should >>>> >>> really have anti-aliasing >>> >>>> filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do >>>> >>> and only the C really >>> >>>> needs to be up by the input. The R would also >>>> >>> provide some input protection >>> >>>> to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good >>>> >>> idea. The PIC is pretty >>> >>>> well protected but voltages outside of its supply >>>> >>> rails throw the A/D >>> >>>> readings all over the place. >>>> It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the >>>> >>> reference for the A/D, what >>> >>>> supply are the I/O lines referenced to? >>>> The digital I/O could do with some resistance in >>>> >>> line as well, a couple of >>> >>>> hundred ohms would provide output short circuit >>>> >>> protection and give some >>> >>>> filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs >>>> >>> are coming off another board >>> >>>> then you could see some ringing on them, that >>>> >>> could be more of a problem on >>> >>>> PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. >>>> The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's >>>> >>> good. Automotive supplies >>> >>>> are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I >>>> >>> design has to be protected >>> >>>> against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves >>>> >>> 100V for 100mS. You could >>> >>>> reduce the protection needed by using a regulator >>>> >>> specifically designed for >>> >>>> automotive use, there are a few of them out there. >>>> >>> I have used the LM2940S >>> >>>> in the past and that works well but I think the >>>> >>> best spec only comes in an >>> >>>> SMD package. >>>> I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see >>>> >>> any reason why it won't >>> >>>> work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution >>>> >>> by having to digitally >>> >>>> filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a >>>> >>> few board redesigns along >>> >>>> the way. The Microchip website has a very good on >>>> >>> line seminar about PCB >>> >>>> layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth >>>> >>> checking out. >>> >>>> HTH >>>> James >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Diy_efi mailing list >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Subscribe: >>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>> >>> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ >> Looking for earth-friendly autos? >> Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. >> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > From steve at donegan.org Mon Feb 26 08:00:20 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 06:00:20 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design In-Reply-To: <45E27B97.1020803@hotmail.com> References: <654248.82739.qm@web58709.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <1172457533.11459.9.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45E27B97.1020803@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <1172498420.11459.14.camel@wopr.donegan.org> The 1F caps (there are 2 on the CPU board) are there for UPS purposes - ie both are 'super caps' - one on the real time clock chip and one on the power supply side. The CPU has and ADC line connected to the incoming power (pre regulator, post MOV's and bridge) to detect power going away for graceful shut down purposes. The other chips have decoupling capacitors as indicated by their respective manufacturers... On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 19:17 +1300, Bevan Weiss wrote: > What's the ESR and ESL of the 1 farad capacitor? I generally only use > around 1 or 2 1000uF caps for bulk decoupling. > Then 1uF or 2u2 ceramic 0805 capacitors for more local decoupling. > Finally 100nF 0805 ceramics for chip level decoupling. > > Does the board have a TVS device on the power supply input? It also > assume it is fused suitably, preferably with a quick blow fuse. > > > Bevan > > > We have a 1 farad - ie 10x or more your need in front of this > > already :-) > > > > On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 17:50 -0800, Heitor Lima wrote: > > > >> Bill > >> > >> We need to use two capacitors , one big as 100uF , > >> electrolytic type and another one , 100nF , ceramic > >> type. > >> Regards > >> > >> Heitor > >> > >> > >> --- Bill Washington > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> James, > >>> You said "all ICs should have at least a100uF > >>> cap as close as > >>> possible to the supply " do you mean 100nF? > >>> Steven, > >>> In PCB layout it is good practise to have a > >>> large reservoir Cap > >>> (your 1 Farad) close by plus smaller (ceramic 100nF > >>> and sometimes 10nF > >>> as well) caps right on the IC supply pins (as close > >>> as you can get > >>> them). The reason for this is that the large > >>> reservoir cap has some > >>> inductance and resistance in its construction which > >>> slows down its > >>> response time - the ceramic Caps (which very low > >>> ESR) on the IC supply > >>> pins handle the sharp rising and falling edge surges > >>> and minimise ground > >>> bounce which can cause all sorts of problems .... > >>> Regards > >>> Bill > >>> > >>>> Subject: > >>>> [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. > >>>> > >>> Donegan) > >>> > >>>> From: > >>>> "James Holland" > >>>> Date: > >>>> Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:41:30 -0000 > >>>> To: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> To: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I have been following this project with some > >>>> > >>> interest. I had a look on the > >>> > >>>> website but you seem to have the same schematic > >>>> > >>> for the datalogger and I/O > >>> > >>>> board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't > >>>> > >>> been posted. I've designed > >>> > >>>> electronics for military automotive issues so I'm > >>>> > >>> aware of the problems of > >>> > >>>> designing for this kind of environment. > >>>> I like the idea of this but I think that you will > >>>> > >>> have some noise issues > >>> > >>>> with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks > >>>> > >>> a good ground plane and > >>> > >>>> the decoupling could do with being improved, all > >>>> > >>> ICs should have at least a > >>> > >>>> 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The > >>>> > >>> PIC should have two, one > >>> > >>>> on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the > >>>> > >>> PIC doesn't have a separate > >>> > >>>> Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the > >>>> > >>> analogue and digital returns > >>> > >>>> are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should > >>>> > >>> really have anti-aliasing > >>> > >>>> filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do > >>>> > >>> and only the C really > >>> > >>>> needs to be up by the input. The R would also > >>>> > >>> provide some input protection > >>> > >>>> to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good > >>>> > >>> idea. The PIC is pretty > >>> > >>>> well protected but voltages outside of its supply > >>>> > >>> rails throw the A/D > >>> > >>>> readings all over the place. > >>>> It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the > >>>> > >>> reference for the A/D, what > >>> > >>>> supply are the I/O lines referenced to? > >>>> The digital I/O could do with some resistance in > >>>> > >>> line as well, a couple of > >>> > >>>> hundred ohms would provide output short circuit > >>>> > >>> protection and give some > >>> > >>>> filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs > >>>> > >>> are coming off another board > >>> > >>>> then you could see some ringing on them, that > >>>> > >>> could be more of a problem on > >>> > >>>> PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. > >>>> The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's > >>>> > >>> good. Automotive supplies > >>> > >>>> are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I > >>>> > >>> design has to be protected > >>> > >>>> against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves > >>>> > >>> 100V for 100mS. You could > >>> > >>>> reduce the protection needed by using a regulator > >>>> > >>> specifically designed for > >>> > >>>> automotive use, there are a few of them out there. > >>>> > >>> I have used the LM2940S > >>> > >>>> in the past and that works well but I think the > >>>> > >>> best spec only comes in an > >>> > >>>> SMD package. > >>>> I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see > >>>> > >>> any reason why it won't > >>> > >>>> work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution > >>>> > >>> by having to digitally > >>> > >>>> filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a > >>>> > >>> few board redesigns along > >>> > >>>> the way. The Microchip website has a very good on > >>>> > >>> line seminar about PCB > >>> > >>>> layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth > >>>> > >>> checking out. > >>> > >>>> HTH > >>>> James > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Diy_efi mailing list > >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >>> Subscribe: > >>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> ____________________________________________________________________________________ > >> Looking for earth-friendly autos? > >> Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. > >> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Diy_efi mailing list > >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From WSCowell at aol.com Mon Feb 26 11:56:01 2007 From: WSCowell at aol.com (WSCowell at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:56:01 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design Message-ID: In a message dated 26/02/2007 02:39:43 GMT Standard Time, steve at donegan.org writes: We have a 1 farad - ie 10x or more your need in front of this already :-) This is what we used to call a SuperCap. It's way too large to do the important job of decoupling fast RF transients on the supply lines. Little and often is a good maxim in PCB design when it comes to distributed decoupling caps. But yes, there should be a decent size (value) cap to provide LF decoupling as well - hence the "many 100n, one 100uF" idea. One supercap will NOT do the job the other little ones could do. Good luck. Will C From kaizen__ at hotmail.com Mon Feb 26 12:09:09 2007 From: kaizen__ at hotmail.com (Bevan Weiss) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:09:09 +1300 Subject: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design In-Reply-To: <1172498420.11459.14.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <654248.82739.qm@web58709.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <1172457533.11459.9.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45E27B97.1020803@hotmail.com> <1172498420.11459.14.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45E32245.7060503@hotmail.com> Hi Steven, I think having a super cap is a good idea on the microcontroller supply lines (to act as a temporary power source) however am not sure why you're using a bridge (bridge rectifier I assume). If you're after reverse polarity protection then you should really just use a single series diode. This ensures that you have the reverse protection available, but also that the system won't operate with the polarity swapped, a second plus for this configuration is the reduced voltage drop due to only one rather than two series diodes. I would still add at least one 1000uF capacitor, as well as several smaller capacitors. The shotgun approach is the best (cover a range of capacitor values), unless you're willing to perform some more complicated frequency analysis of your capacitor spread. The frequency analysis approach is generally used when it's important to minimize BOM cost through using the minimum number of capacitors. Shotgun approach often results in additional capacitors being used than are really required, but this isn't normally a problem. Is there any particular reason you're going for a super cap on the RTC rather than using a more standard coin cell battery? I haven't looked into temperature ratings for super caps lately, but last I looked they weren't great. Something like -5degC to 45degC.. They also have quite high ESR making them bad for ripple reduction as Will has already mentioned. I applaud you for taking on this design in such a public manner. Sorry if it seems like we're telling you how to suck eggs, just want to make things easier for you :) Bevan > The 1F caps (there are 2 on the CPU board) are there for UPS purposes - > ie both are 'super caps' - one on the real time clock chip and one on > the power supply side. The CPU has and ADC line connected to the > incoming power (pre regulator, post MOV's and bridge) to detect power > going away for graceful shut down purposes. The other chips have > decoupling capacitors as indicated by their respective manufacturers... > > On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 19:17 +1300, Bevan Weiss wrote: > >> What's the ESR and ESL of the 1 farad capacitor? I generally only use >> around 1 or 2 1000uF caps for bulk decoupling. >> Then 1uF or 2u2 ceramic 0805 capacitors for more local decoupling. >> Finally 100nF 0805 ceramics for chip level decoupling. >> >> Does the board have a TVS device on the power supply input? It also >> assume it is fused suitably, preferably with a quick blow fuse. >> >> >> Bevan >> >> >>> We have a 1 farad - ie 10x or more your need in front of this >>> already :-) >>> >>> On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 17:50 -0800, Heitor Lima wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> We need to use two capacitors , one big as 100uF , >>>> electrolytic type and another one , 100nF , ceramic >>>> type. >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Heitor >>>> >>>> >>>> --- Bill Washington >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> James, >>>>> You said "all ICs should have at least a100uF >>>>> cap as close as >>>>> possible to the supply " do you mean 100nF? >>>>> Steven, >>>>> In PCB layout it is good practise to have a >>>>> large reservoir Cap >>>>> (your 1 Farad) close by plus smaller (ceramic 100nF >>>>> and sometimes 10nF >>>>> as well) caps right on the IC supply pins (as close >>>>> as you can get >>>>> them). The reason for this is that the large >>>>> reservoir cap has some >>>>> inductance and resistance in its construction which >>>>> slows down its >>>>> response time - the ceramic Caps (which very low >>>>> ESR) on the IC supply >>>>> pins handle the sharp rising and falling edge surges >>>>> and minimise ground >>>>> bounce which can cause all sorts of problems .... >>>>> Regards >>>>> Bill >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Subject: >>>>>> [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Donegan) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> From: >>>>>> "James Holland" >>>>>> Date: >>>>>> Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:41:30 -0000 >>>>>> To: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have been following this project with some >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> interest. I had a look on the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> website but you seem to have the same schematic >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> for the datalogger and I/O >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> been posted. I've designed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> electronics for military automotive issues so I'm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> aware of the problems of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> designing for this kind of environment. >>>>>> I like the idea of this but I think that you will >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> have some noise issues >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> a good ground plane and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> the decoupling could do with being improved, all >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ICs should have at least a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> PIC should have two, one >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> PIC doesn't have a separate >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> analogue and digital returns >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> really have anti-aliasing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> and only the C really >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> needs to be up by the input. The R would also >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> provide some input protection >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> idea. The PIC is pretty >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> well protected but voltages outside of its supply >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> rails throw the A/D >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> readings all over the place. >>>>>> It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> reference for the A/D, what >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> supply are the I/O lines referenced to? >>>>>> The digital I/O could do with some resistance in >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> line as well, a couple of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> hundred ohms would provide output short circuit >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> protection and give some >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> are coming off another board >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> then you could see some ringing on them, that >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> could be more of a problem on >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. >>>>>> The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> good. Automotive supplies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> design has to be protected >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> 100V for 100mS. You could >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> reduce the protection needed by using a regulator >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> specifically designed for >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> automotive use, there are a few of them out there. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I have used the LM2940S >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> in the past and that works well but I think the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> best spec only comes in an >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> SMD package. >>>>>> I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> any reason why it won't >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> by having to digitally >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> few board redesigns along >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> the way. The Microchip website has a very good on >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> line seminar about PCB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> checking out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> HTH >>>>>> James >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Diy_efi mailing list >>>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>>>> Subscribe: >>>>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>>>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ____________________________________________________________________________________ >>>> Looking for earth-friendly autos? >>>> Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. >>>> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Diy_efi mailing list >>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Diy_efi mailing list >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > From steve at donegan.org Mon Feb 26 12:23:12 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:23:12 -0800 Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design In-Reply-To: <45E32245.7060503@hotmail.com> References: <654248.82739.qm@web58709.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <1172457533.11459.9.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45E27B97.1020803@hotmail.com> <1172498420.11459.14.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45E32245.7060503@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <1172514192.16760.16.camel@wopr.donegan.org> I am open to all feedback - and will adjust the design as seems appropriate. The Super cap was strictly for baby UPS capability - although it will indeed deal with low frequency garbage quite well. I will indeed adjust my current design, which in most parts mirrors Megasquirt already (which works), based on the group's inputs. If I didn't want feedback I wouldn't be doing this in a public forum - so no worries :-) The bridge was simpler, single component answer to the more complex belt and suspenders approach the megasquirt folks took (and that is not in any way intended to be a negative comment about megasquirt - they are the reason I am doing this project - ie my inspiration). And given that the system runs on 5V and 3.3V the battery would have to be at least 2 dead cells down before the voltage drop across the diodes would really make any difference. At that point there is not enough to fire injectors or coils properly so it's kind of moot... I may also go to more than 2 layers - at least on the full ECU design. The PIC based design given it's low frequency operation and full shielded case design probably would not gain anything by more than 2 layers... And I already have my circuit design software routing based on shortest traces and fewest number of vias as design goals... And - BTW - I am a hobby type - my daily job is designing systems and software, not boards - so in the PCB area I am an amateur compared to many other folks who do that type of work for a living. So by all means keep the feedback coming!!! On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 07:09 +1300, Bevan Weiss wrote: > Hi Steven, > I think having a super cap is a good idea on the microcontroller supply > lines (to act as a temporary power source) however am not sure why > you're using a bridge (bridge rectifier I assume). If you're after > reverse polarity protection then you should really just use a single > series diode. This ensures that you have the reverse protection > available, but also that the system won't operate with the polarity > swapped, a second plus for this configuration is the reduced voltage > drop due to only one rather than two series diodes. > > I would still add at least one 1000uF capacitor, as well as several > smaller capacitors. The shotgun approach is the best (cover a range of > capacitor values), unless you're willing to perform some more > complicated frequency analysis of your capacitor spread. The frequency > analysis approach is generally used when it's important to minimize BOM > cost through using the minimum number of capacitors. Shotgun approach > often results in additional capacitors being used than are really > required, but this isn't normally a problem. > > Is there any particular reason you're going for a super cap on the RTC > rather than using a more standard coin cell battery? I haven't looked > into temperature ratings for super caps lately, but last I looked they > weren't great. Something like -5degC to 45degC.. They also have quite > high ESR making them bad for ripple reduction as Will has already mentioned. > > I applaud you for taking on this design in such a public manner. Sorry > if it seems like we're telling you how to suck eggs, just want to make > things easier for you :) > > > Bevan > > > > The 1F caps (there are 2 on the CPU board) are there for UPS purposes - > > ie both are 'super caps' - one on the real time clock chip and one on > > the power supply side. The CPU has and ADC line connected to the > > incoming power (pre regulator, post MOV's and bridge) to detect power > > going away for graceful shut down purposes. The other chips have > > decoupling capacitors as indicated by their respective manufacturers... > > > > On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 19:17 +1300, Bevan Weiss wrote: > > > >> What's the ESR and ESL of the 1 farad capacitor? I generally only use > >> around 1 or 2 1000uF caps for bulk decoupling. > >> Then 1uF or 2u2 ceramic 0805 capacitors for more local decoupling. > >> Finally 100nF 0805 ceramics for chip level decoupling. > >> > >> Does the board have a TVS device on the power supply input? It also > >> assume it is fused suitably, preferably with a quick blow fuse. > >> > >> > >> Bevan > >> > >> > >>> We have a 1 farad - ie 10x or more your need in front of this > >>> already :-) > >>> > >>> On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 17:50 -0800, Heitor Lima wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Bill > >>>> > >>>> We need to use two capacitors , one big as 100uF , > >>>> electrolytic type and another one , 100nF , ceramic > >>>> type. > >>>> Regards > >>>> > >>>> Heitor > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> --- Bill Washington > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> James, > >>>>> You said "all ICs should have at least a100uF > >>>>> cap as close as > >>>>> possible to the supply " do you mean 100nF? > >>>>> Steven, > >>>>> In PCB layout it is good practise to have a > >>>>> large reservoir Cap > >>>>> (your 1 Farad) close by plus smaller (ceramic 100nF > >>>>> and sometimes 10nF > >>>>> as well) caps right on the IC supply pins (as close > >>>>> as you can get > >>>>> them). The reason for this is that the large > >>>>> reservoir cap has some > >>>>> inductance and resistance in its construction which > >>>>> slows down its > >>>>> response time - the ceramic Caps (which very low > >>>>> ESR) on the IC supply > >>>>> pins handle the sharp rising and falling edge surges > >>>>> and minimise ground > >>>>> bounce which can cause all sorts of problems .... > >>>>> Regards > >>>>> Bill > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Subject: > >>>>>> [Diy_efi] RE: More ECU progress (Steven P. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> Donegan) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> From: > >>>>>> "James Holland" > >>>>>> Date: > >>>>>> Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:41:30 -0000 > >>>>>> To: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I have been following this project with some > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> interest. I had a look on the > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> website but you seem to have the same schematic > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> for the datalogger and I/O > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> board. I presume the I/O board schematic hasn't > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> been posted. I've designed > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> electronics for military automotive issues so I'm > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> aware of the problems of > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> designing for this kind of environment. > >>>>>> I like the idea of this but I think that you will > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> have some noise issues > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> with the design as it stands. The PCB design lacks > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> a good ground plane and > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> the decoupling could do with being improved, all > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> ICs should have at least a > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> 100uF cap as close as possible to the supply. The > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> PIC should have two, one > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> on each supply pin. I'm a bit surprised that the > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> PIC doesn't have a separate > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Analogue supply for the A/D as it stands the > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> analogue and digital returns > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> are mixed which isn't good. The A/D inputs should > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> really have anti-aliasing > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> filters close to the inputs, a simple RC would do > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> and only the C really > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> needs to be up by the input. The R would also > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> provide some input protection > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> to the PIC. Input voltage clamping is also a good > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> idea. The PIC is pretty > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> well protected but voltages outside of its supply > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> rails throw the A/D > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> readings all over the place. > >>>>>> It looks like you are using the 5V supply as the > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> reference for the A/D, what > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> supply are the I/O lines referenced to? > >>>>>> The digital I/O could do with some resistance in > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> line as well, a couple of > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> hundred ohms would provide output short circuit > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> protection and give some > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> filtering on the inputs. If your digital inputs > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> are coming off another board > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> then you could see some ringing on them, that > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> could be more of a problem on > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> PortB which doesn't have Schmitt inputs. > >>>>>> The 5V regulator has plenty of protection, that's > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> good. Automotive supplies > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> are horribly noisy. The 28V military stuff I > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> design has to be protected > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> against +280V/-130V spikes. The EMC test involves > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> 100V for 100mS. You could > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> reduce the protection needed by using a regulator > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> specifically designed for > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> automotive use, there are a few of them out there. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> I have used the LM2940S > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> in the past and that works well but I think the > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> best spec only comes in an > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> SMD package. > >>>>>> I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, I don't see > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> any reason why it won't > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> work but I think you will lose some A/D resolution > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> by having to digitally > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> filter the inputs. I learnt the hard way with a > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> few board redesigns along > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> the way. The Microchip website has a very good on > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> line seminar about PCB > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> layout and design for A/Ds, its well worth > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> checking out. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> HTH > >>>>>> James > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Diy_efi mailing list > >>>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >>>>> Subscribe: > >>>>> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >>>>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> ____________________________________________________________________________________ > >>>> Looking for earth-friendly autos? > >>>> Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. > >>>> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Diy_efi mailing list > >>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >>>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > >>>> > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Diy_efi mailing list > >>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >>> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Diy_efi mailing list > >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From steve at donegan.org Mon Feb 26 12:26:26 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:26:26 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Feedback - keep it coming :-) Message-ID: <1172514386.16760.18.camel@wopr.donegan.org> I am open to all feedback - and will adjust the design as seems appropriate. The Super cap was strictly for baby UPS capability - although it will indeed deal with low frequency garbage quite well. I will indeed adjust my current design, which in most parts mirrors Megasquirt already (which works), based on the group's inputs. If I didn't want feedback I wouldn't be doing this in a public forum - so no worries :-) The bridge was simpler, single component answer to the more complex belt and suspenders approach the megasquirt folks took (and that is not in any way intended to be a negative comment about megasquirt - they are the reason I am doing this project - ie my inspiration). And given that the system runs on 5V and 3.3V the battery would have to be at least 2 dead cells down before the voltage drop across the diodes would really make any difference. At that point there is not enough to fire injectors or coils properly so it's kind of moot... I may also go to more than 2 layers - at least on the full ECU design. The PIC based design given it's low frequency operation and full shielded case design probably would not gain anything by more than 2 layers... And I already have my circuit design software routing based on shortest traces and fewest number of vias as design goals... And - BTW - I am a hobby type - my daily job is designing systems and software, not boards - so in the PCB area I am an amateur compared to many other folks who do that type of work for a living. So by all means keep the feedback coming!!! On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 07:09 +1300, Bevan Weiss wrote: > Hi Steven, > I think having a super cap is a good idea on the microcontroller supply > lines (to act as a temporary power source) however am not sure why > you're using a bridge (bridge rectifier I assume). If you're after > reverse polarity protection then you should really just use a single > series diode. This ensures that you have the reverse protection > available, but also that the system won't operate with the polarity > swapped, a second plus for this configuration is the reduced voltage > drop due to only one rather than two series diodes. > > I would still add at least one 1000uF capacitor, as well as several > smaller capacitors. The shotgun approach is the best (cover a range of > capacitor values), unless you're willing to perform some more > complicated frequency analysis of your capacitor spread. The frequency > analysis approach is generally used when it's important to minimize BOM > cost through using the minimum number of capacitors. Shotgun approach > often results in additional capacitors being used than are really > required, but this isn't normally a problem. > > Is there any particular reason you're going for a super cap on the RTC > rather than using a more standard coin cell battery? I haven't looked > into temperature ratings for super caps lately, but last I looked they > weren't great. Something like -5degC to 45degC.. They also have quite > high ESR making them bad for ripple reduction as Will has already mentioned. > > I applaud you for taking on this design in such a public manner. Sorry > if it seems like we're telling you how to suck eggs, just want to make > things easier for you :) > > > Bevan > > From bill at wrljet.com Mon Feb 26 12:40:40 2007 From: bill at wrljet.com (Bill Lewis) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:40:40 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Feedback - keep it coming :-) In-Reply-To: <1172514386.16760.18.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <1172514386.16760.18.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45E329A8.7090002@wrljet.com> > given that the system runs on 5V and 3.3V the battery would have to be > at least 2 dead cells down before the voltage drop across the diodes > would really make any difference. At that point there is not enough to > fire injectors or coils properly so it's kind of moot... I may also go You know some ECUs (such as Chrysler) use a switching power supply to boost battery voltage to suitable levels during brownout conditions. Bill From spyro at f2s.com Mon Feb 26 12:46:59 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:46:59 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design In-Reply-To: <45E32245.7060503@hotmail.com> References: <654248.82739.qm@web58709.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <1172457533.11459.9.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45E27B97.1020803@hotmail.com> <1172498420.11459.14.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45E32245.7060503@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <45E32B23.2010601@f2s.com> Bevan Weiss wrote: > I haven't looked > into temperature ratings for super caps lately, but last I looked they > weren't great. Something like -5degC to 45degC.. Eep. is that failure at -5 degrees, or simply that they lose their charge? (the latter isnt much of a problem in our case unless they REALLY lose it) > I applaud you for taking on this design in such a public manner. Sorry > if it seems like we're telling you how to suck eggs, just want to make > things easier for you :) I'm no expert on analogue electronics either, so Im here for all the learning I can get too :-) From j_holland at btopenworld.com Mon Feb 26 12:54:31 2007 From: j_holland at btopenworld.com (James Holland) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:54:31 -0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE More ECU progress Message-ID: I get the digest version of this so I apologise if others have already covered this. > > I have so far done the PIC based parts with only input protection > modeled on a successful project - Megasquirt - so any failings my simple > design likely is the same as that design which is in use all over :-) > That is not a disregard in any way of your input - being an engineer I > prefer massive overkill on my designs and I will take every point you've > raised and see what can be done to either eliminate it or make the > decision that it enough of a boundry condition as to not likely apply > for our intended usage. I have seen the Megasquirt project although I'm not very up to date on it.It is as you say well proven. It also makes a good reference design. If you look at the evolution from MS1 to MS2 then you will see that a lot of what they have done involves additional protection and grounding improvements. > > And I don't know about what is currently present on the web - but the > power supply has a 1 farad cap about .5 inches from the chips on the CPU > - if that isn't enough I don't know what is :-) I actually thought the 1F was a typo. Logic devices require bursts of current as they switch, the decoupling capacitors are there to provide this current. My earlier response really didn't represent what I meant to say. I did mean 100nF not 100uF! And the reference to 'at least' was to the frequency response and not the actual capacitance. If you consider the PIC itself then you have switching currents at 5MHz (the PC) and other switching at lower frequencies as other functions operate. The caps need to provide current fast enough to meet demand or the voltage will be pulled down (usually not by much). I haven't had occasion to use caps of that size myslf but I would guess that the frequency response is just a few khz. A 100nF has a self resonant frequency at around 10MHz with a fairly low impedance above that all the way to around 100Mhz. However being a small cap it doesn't carry much charge so it is usual practice to use one per power input. Lead length and track length contribute to the inductance of the cap and reduce the bandwidth so they do need to be close to the pin I don't think the 1F will have any real effect on decoupling. It may give you further problems with meeting the rise time specs on Vdd and by holding up the power rails after you've turned off the supply. Something around 68 or 100uf would be more effective. > > The 'daughter card' has full clamping on all inputs and all of it's > inputs to the CPU card are via SPI - all inputs on the daughter card > have 5.1V zener, and reverse voltage input protection - although in any > normal auto usage the reverse stuff is overkill. Clamping is good, the reverse protection isn't overkill. In almost all modern cars now there are inductive loadings being switched all the time, motors, solenoids etc. These can create big current spikes on turn on and big reverse voltages on turn off. Car manufactures tend to run all their wires together in one relatively long loom and there is a lot of cross coupling. The 5v1 zener may be a little high > > The latest rendition of the power supply has MOV's and 200V bridge > followed by MOV's to make sure any rational DC input is dealt with - and > lots of totally irrational ones too I expect. MOVs are good, doubt if you need the bridge. Make sure that the MOV is of a suitable voltage. They don't handle lots of current for very long so the rated voltage shouldn't be too low. Remember that the source impedance is very low so they can pull a lot of current when they conduct. A polyfuse might help to protect the MOV but they tend to be slow and the trip point varies a lot with temperature > Snip > > Going from a 2 side board to a 4 side board to have the various > signal/ground/etc separated will make the board itself fairly pricey - > that will have to be driven by some level of actual board/system failure > -vs- 2 layer - here you need to convince me :-) > That's pretty much the eternal dilemma. Double sided boards I can make at home for peanuts, Four layer are very expensive. You can do a lot to improve a double sided board. Copper fill is your friend. The copper is already on the board, why etch it away when it can be used to create nice big low impedance grounds and power supplies > > Not sure if I touched on this - but the daughter board which provides > all I/O is .20 in away and sandwiched via your usual header things - so > I don't think any ringing will occur even at max frequency likely to be > present. > I got that. It does keep the track lengths to a minimum but those tracks can act like aerials and propagate noise from board to board. I can't see it being too much of an issue in this case but if you start switching injectors and solenoids then it could start causing problems. Not sure if they'll be room but a grounded plate between the switching board and the rest could help. > > And PLEASE keep up the feedback!!!!!!! > > Oh - funny - the PS I designed for the actual ECU has MOV in front, 200 > PIV bridge, MOV in back and then the rest of my design including a zener > clamp in front of and behind the regulator - and regulator is able to > handle 2X 'normal' input voltage :-) There is no more enjoyable overkill > than massive overkill :-) > Two times voltage is more than enough but don't forget that 2x voltage is 4 times the power dissipation > > > Given the whole Interceptor fits in a cast aluminum box - hell it may > even survive some level of EMP - the rest of the vehicle sure won't... > > Note point above about power dissipation. The metal case can work for you if you get heat transfer to it, otherwise it may hold the heat in. I think you'll be stuffed on EMP, the box is kind of ruined once you cut holes in it and bring all the wires through :-) There were a couple of other points that you mentioned in your email, I'll cover them here. You stated that you aren't using the A/D on the PIC. I hadn't realized that so a lot of my other comments aren't relevant. The 'fast' A/D I'm curious about. Is this being fed directly to the ARM? I'm not familiar with them. IIRC You mentioned 400ksps before, that's a pretty fast data rate. Way above what you need for most automotive sensors and quite a heavy loading for most microcontrollers. As I understand it the high data rate is intended for the ION sensing stuff. Unless that's implemented I would slow the A/D rate down a fair bit to save power and reduce the overheads. I haven't looked at the ION sensing stuff. I will have a read through it at some point. Last point. I get called upon to review other people's designs before they go out to manufacture. There are a lot of professional electronics designers who get very upset if their designs don't come up to scratch. Actually I'm probably one of them too. I know how it feels to have someone pick through months of work pointing out what may seem apparently trivial details and sometimes making wrong assumptions. It sucks but I learn from it. Cheers James From kaizen__ at hotmail.com Mon Feb 26 13:01:17 2007 From: kaizen__ at hotmail.com (Bevan Weiss) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:01:17 +1300 Subject: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design In-Reply-To: <45E32B23.2010601@f2s.com> References: <654248.82739.qm@web58709.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <1172457533.11459.9.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45E27B97.1020803@hotmail.com> <1172498420.11459.14.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45E32245.7060503@hotmail.com> <45E32B23.2010601@f2s.com> Message-ID: <45E32E7D.7040801@hotmail.com> > Bevan Weiss wrote: > >> I haven't looked into temperature ratings for super caps lately, but >> last I looked they weren't great. Something like -5degC to 45degC.. > > Eep. is that failure at -5 degrees, or simply that they lose their > charge? (the latter isnt much of a problem in our case unless they > REALLY lose it) That's rated temperature.. so outside of that anything can happen. Generally you'll get a deviation from the rated capacitance. In most cases it will fall significantly. With lower temperature generally the ESR will also increase (much like a battery), and the leakage current will also decrease. It's not a big issue so much, apart from the slightly increased possibility of container rupture (which would be a bad thing). Super caps tend to work best in situations where they aren't hot or cold.. otherwise batteries tend to do a better job. > >> I applaud you for taking on this design in such a public manner. >> Sorry if it seems like we're telling you how to suck eggs, just want >> to make things easier for you :) > > I'm no expert on analogue electronics either, so Im here for all the > learning I can get too :-) > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > From j_holland at btopenworld.com Mon Feb 26 13:16:12 2007 From: j_holland at btopenworld.com (James Holland) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:16:12 -0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Military/ Automotive design Message-ID: > James, > Can you, if this is possible, give us a few tips re: the basics of > designing > circuit boards for the high-temp. environment such as military and/or > automotive? > Scotty Its not really that much different to designing for any other environment. You have to calculate your tolerances over the entire temperature range. Calculate your junction temperatures or follow the manufacturers guidance on derating for whatever your max. temperature is. The requirements for military stuff vary widely. Naval stuff that is used inside the ship is generally in an air-conditioned environment and the temperature range is pretty limited. You also usually have a nice big AC/DC converter between your equipment and the ships generators so the supply is pretty stable. Stuff used outside has to meet the temperature requirements for artic use and equatorial use (ambient + solar heating). The main difference between military and commercial automotive is that a car manufacturer gives the customer a handbook stating 'Do not jump Start' Do not run with the battery disconnected' 'Do not connect the battery the wrong way round'. The military give the designer a spec that says. 'It must survive....' The challenging aspects are the wide supply range and lack of regulation, the temperature range and the horrendous amount of noise on both power and signals. Of course your equipment musn't generate any significant conducted or radiated emissions! If you consider a cars supply. You have to design your equipment to operate down to 7V and up to something like 16.5V. The power dissipation increases 5.5 times. You can reduce power loses by using switched mode regulators and PWMing solenoids and motors but then you start struggling with noise. Low temps can sometimes be more difficult than high temps. A colleague had board with a microcontroller on it that was designed by a subcontractor. It wouldn't start at -40C. The problem was eventually traced to the decoupling caps which were Y5V or similar. The capacitance of a Y5V drops dramatically with temperature, at -40 they weren't doing anything at all. The processor was coming out of reset and switching on. The current spike was causing the voltage to drop and the Brown Out Detect was kicking in. The processor went into reset. When it came out of reset it all started again! A change to X7Rs cured the problem. Cheers James From j_holland at btopenworld.com Mon Feb 26 13:24:09 2007 From: j_holland at btopenworld.com (James Holland) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:24:09 -0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: layout/circuit design Message-ID: > > James, > You said "all ICs should have at least a100uF cap as close as > possible to the supply " do you mean 100nF? I hang my head in shame, what a load of rubbish. Yep that was a typo, I meant 100nF. When I said 'at least' I had a mental image of the frequency response. I really meant 'with at least the frequency response of a 100nF cap'. Of course a 100uF in parallel is good too, it will give good low frequency decoupling while the impedance of the 100nF is still relatively high. More than a 100uF of capacitance is usually unnecessary unless you're paralleling caps to meet ripple specs. Cheers James From steve at donegan.org Mon Feb 26 13:26:10 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:26:10 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges Message-ID: <1172517970.16760.24.camel@wopr.donegan.org> For the moment I am working more on function and less on boundary conditions - ie I am working with commercial temp range parts and 'reasonable' power supply fluctuations. Once the system works in those conditions I will indeed go to automotive/military temperature range components and expect zero goodness from vehicle power :-) From bill at wrljet.com Mon Feb 26 13:37:42 2007 From: bill at wrljet.com (Bill Lewis) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:37:42 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: <1172517970.16760.24.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <1172517970.16760.24.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45E33706.2030008@wrljet.com> Steven P. Donegan wrote: > For the moment I am working more on function and less on boundary > conditions - ie I am working with commercial temp range parts and > 'reasonable' power supply fluctuations. Once the system works in those > conditions I will indeed go to automotive/military temperature range > components and expect zero goodness from vehicle power :-) I've disassembled and reverse engineered a number of ECUs over the years and many do not use anything beyond commercial temp range parts. Just FYI. From spyro at f2s.com Mon Feb 26 16:41:45 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:41:45 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE More ECU progress In-Reply-To: <20070226190148.7987F1C8774@mx2.freedom2surf.net> References: <20070226190148.7987F1C8774@mx2.freedom2surf.net> Message-ID: <45E36229.6070809@f2s.com> James Holland wrote: > The 'fast' A/D I'm curious about. Is this being fed directly to the ARM? I'm > not familiar with them. IIRC You mentioned 400ksps before, that's a pretty > fast data rate. I'll take that one... The fast A/D is for ion sensing. Only one ADC is needed per bank of cylinders (bank = set of cylinders with non overlapping firing events) I've designed a spec which will probably go onto an FPGA. I'll put it on the website shortly. basically the FPGA is a 'timing controller'. It will take CAS and cam angle inputs, and use them to compute the crank angle to better than one degree. how much better will depend on how good our interpolation algorithms work). the same FPGA will also have a 256 entry table each entry of which will contain an angle between 0 and 720 degrees for any given event (four types are currently defined, including spark and fuel injection). the FPGA will handle firing of spark and fuel based on this table and optionally fire an interrupt to the host CPU for any event. there is also a fuel intection timing / regulation table (not a map - thats the host CPUs job to manage). So with all the above, the engine should be able to run for a few seconds, even if the host CPU takes a reset. the neat bit is that one of the 'event types' will be an 'ion sense trigger' which will start an ion sensing event. this will cause thew ADC to be sampled (up to 256 samples per ion event, event range from 0 to 63 degrees), and the host CPU to be (optionally) interrupted on completion of sampling. So basically, the host CPU has only to watch RPM (also provided by this timing controller) and reprogram the controllers fuel and event map to taste. offload is a Good Thing. My calculations suggest that for a 16 cylinder engine, with 4 cylinder banks, at 20,000 RPM, we will be seeing 5.33 megabytes of ion sense data per second max (256 table entries, 4 bytes each) Reprogramming the fuel / event map 16 times in one cycle requires ~6MB/sec at 20kRPM on the same 16 cylinder engine. The above assumes an engine with dual injectors per cylinder and twin spark plugs/events. the controller would be capable of handling over 85,000 events per second max and controlling 96 IO lines. A more erealistinc application (10k RPM redline, V8, twin injectors, one spark, per cylinder ion sensing) would be 4 events per cylinder per cycle = 10k / 2 * 4 = 20kevents/min * 8 cylinder = 160kevents/min = 2667 events per second, only one of which requires a CPU interrupt = 600 interrupts per second (plus 83 TDC interrutps) = 683 interrupts per second. ion sense data rate would be 8*10k *256*4 = 80k *1024 = 81920kbytes per minute = 1.37MB/second. pretty slick, no? From bill.washington at nec.com.au Mon Feb 26 18:04:01 2007 From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:04:01 +1100 Subject: [Diy_efi] supercap In-Reply-To: <20070226224651.A2CFA37744@ns1.nec.com.au> References: <20070226224651.A2CFA37744@ns1.nec.com.au> Message-ID: <45E37571.6010605@nec.com.au> Bevan, Steven, Any thoughts on using a rechargable battery - (2 or3 cell)NiMH probably, for the RTC, and higher temp range 100uF electros for the reservoir caps on the remainder of the circuit? - the NiMH could be trickle charged by Diode during normal operation and diode switched to the RTC at power down - the RTC would then operate at full rail voltage minus one diode drop during normal operation, and NiMH minus one diode drop at power down. Configuration, etc would depend on the Min operating voltage of the RTC... Thoughts? Regards Bill > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > Re: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design > From: > Bevan Weiss > Date: > Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:01:17 +1300 > To: > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > To: > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > > > >> Bevan Weiss wrote: >> >>> I haven't looked into temperature ratings for super caps lately, but >>> last I looked they weren't great. Something like -5degC to 45degC.. >> >> Eep. is that failure at -5 degrees, or simply that they lose their >> charge? (the latter isnt much of a problem in our case unless they >> REALLY lose it) > That's rated temperature.. so outside of that anything can happen. > Generally you'll get a deviation from the rated capacitance. In most > cases it will fall significantly. With lower temperature generally > the ESR will also increase (much like a battery), and the leakage > current will also decrease. > It's not a big issue so much, apart from the slightly increased > possibility of container rupture (which would be a bad thing). Super > caps tend to work best in situations where they aren't hot or cold.. > otherwise batteries tend to do a better job. >> >>> I applaud you for taking on this design in such a public manner. >>> Sorry if it seems like we're telling you how to suck eggs, just want >>> to make things easier for you :) >> >> I'm no expert on analogue electronics either, so Im here for all the >> learning I can get too :-) >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> >> > From steve at donegan.org Mon Feb 26 18:33:46 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:33:46 -0800 Subject: [Bulk] [Diy_efi] supercap In-Reply-To: <45E37571.6010605@nec.com.au> References: <20070226224651.A2CFA37744@ns1.nec.com.au> <45E37571.6010605@nec.com.au> Message-ID: <1172536426.19948.4.camel@wopr.donegan.org> The Dallas chip seems to support super cap or battery - I chose a super cap for no specific reason beyond cheap/available. And the circuit we are discussing is the data logger, not the ECU - so if the data logger dies it's not a vehicle stopping event. The ECU will have a bit more hardened power supply taking all of the lists input to date. On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 11:04 +1100, Bill Washington wrote: > Bevan, Steven, > Any thoughts on using a rechargable battery - (2 or3 cell)NiMH > probably, for the RTC, and higher temp range 100uF electros for the > reservoir caps on the remainder of the circuit? - the NiMH could be > trickle charged by Diode during normal operation and diode switched to > the RTC at power down - the RTC would then operate at full rail voltage > minus one diode drop during normal operation, and NiMH minus one diode > drop at power down. Configuration, etc would depend on the Min operating > voltage of the RTC... > Thoughts? > > Regards > Bill > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Subject: > > Re: [Diy_efi] PCB layout/circuit design > > From: > > Bevan Weiss > > Date: > > Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:01:17 +1300 > > To: > > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > > > To: > > diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > > > > > > > > >> Bevan Weiss wrote: > >> > >>> I haven't looked into temperature ratings for super caps lately, but > >>> last I looked they weren't great. Something like -5degC to 45degC.. > >> > >> Eep. is that failure at -5 degrees, or simply that they lose their > >> charge? (the latter isnt much of a problem in our case unless they > >> REALLY lose it) > > That's rated temperature.. so outside of that anything can happen. > > Generally you'll get a deviation from the rated capacitance. In most > > cases it will fall significantly. With lower temperature generally > > the ESR will also increase (much like a battery), and the leakage > > current will also decrease. > > It's not a big issue so much, apart from the slightly increased > > possibility of container rupture (which would be a bad thing). Super > > caps tend to work best in situations where they aren't hot or cold.. > > otherwise batteries tend to do a better job. > >> > >>> I applaud you for taking on this design in such a public manner. > >>> Sorry if it seems like we're telling you how to suck eggs, just want > >>> to make things easier for you :) > >> > >> I'm no expert on analogue electronics either, so Im here for all the > >> learning I can get too :-) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Diy_efi mailing list > >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > >> > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From arsoftware at gmail.com Tue Feb 27 06:13:07 2007 From: arsoftware at gmail.com (Alex Ruiz) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:13:07 -0200 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: <45E33706.2030008@wrljet.com> References: <1172517970.16760.24.camel@wopr.donegan.org> <45E33706.2030008@wrljet.com> Message-ID: <7b372cc90702270413k6099e05fx81138afec0913b68@mail.gmail.com> FYI. Even aftermarket ECUs from Magneti Marelli and Maclaren Electronics are comercial temp range. I'm developing an aftermarked ECU and in the beginning I had a great desire to use fully automotive parts. Quite easy to select the components but almost impossible to buy then in small quantities down here in Brazil. Regards, Alex Ruiz 2007/2/26, Bill Lewis : > > > Steven P. Donegan wrote: > > For the moment I am working more on function and less on boundary > > conditions - ie I am working with commercial temp range parts and > > 'reasonable' power supply fluctuations. Once the system works in those > > conditions I will indeed go to automotive/military temperature range > > components and expect zero goodness from vehicle power :-) > > I've disassembled and reverse engineered a number of ECUs over > the years and many do not use anything beyond commercial temp > range parts. Just FYI. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From gassr at charter.net Tue Feb 27 08:30:47 2007 From: gassr at charter.net (gassr) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:30:47 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges References: <1172517970.16760.24.camel@wopr.donegan.org><45E33706.2030008@wrljet.com> <7b372cc90702270413k6099e05fx81138afec0913b68@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000101c75a7c$4825cd70$34147544@homedesktop> How does the temp range for 'commercial' differ from 'automotive'? I'm led to believe 'automotive' is designed to function within a wider range of temp variation, with both a lower -?C and higher +?C. If so, why deviate from automotive application norms? Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Ruiz" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:13 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges > Even aftermarket ECUs from Magneti Marelli and Maclaren Electronics > are comercial temp range. > > I'm developing an aftermarked ECU and in the beginning I had a great > desire to use fully automotive parts. Quite easy to select the > components but almost impossible to buy then in small quantities down > here in Brazil. > > 2007/2/26, Bill Lewis : >> >> I've disassembled and reverse engineered a number of ECUs over >> the years and many do not use anything beyond commercial temp >> range parts. Just FYI. >> >> Steven P. Donegan wrote: >> > For the moment I am working more on function and less on boundary >> > conditions - ie I am working with commercial temp range parts and >> > 'reasonable' power supply fluctuations. Once the system works in those >> > conditions I will indeed go to automotive/military temperature range >> > components and expect zero goodness from vehicle power :-) From joevitek at cfl.rr.com Tue Feb 27 08:40:31 2007 From: joevitek at cfl.rr.com (Joe Vitek) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:40:31 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: <000101c75a7c$4825cd70$34147544@homedesktop> Message-ID: <200702271440.l1REeWft009342@ms-smtp-06.tampabay.rr.com> > How does the temp range for 'commercial' differ from 'automotive'? > I'm led to believe 'automotive' is designed to function within a wider > range of temp variation, with both a lower -?C and higher +?C. If so, > why deviate from automotive application norms? Commercial range is 0? to +70?C. Industrial is -40? to +85?C. Automotive range is really tough at -40?C to +125?C. -- joe From bill at wrljet.com Tue Feb 27 08:50:32 2007 From: bill at wrljet.com (Bill Lewis) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:50:32 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: <200702271440.l1REeWft009342@ms-smtp-06.tampabay.rr.com> References: <200702271440.l1REeWft009342@ms-smtp-06.tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: <45E44538.4060706@wrljet.com> Joe Vitek wrote: >> How does the temp range for 'commercial' differ from 'automotive'? >> I'm led to believe 'automotive' is designed to function within a wider >> range of temp variation, with both a lower -?C and higher +?C. If so, >> why deviate from automotive application norms? > > Commercial range is 0? to +70?C. Industrial is -40? to +85?C. Automotive range > is really tough at -40?C to +125?C. > > -- > joe It's really yhe low side that you might worry about in an automotive application, since 0C isn't very cold at all. Bill From gassr at charter.net Tue Feb 27 09:22:49 2007 From: gassr at charter.net (gassr) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:22:49 -0600 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges References: <200702271440.l1REeWft009342@ms-smtp-06.tampabay.rr.com> <45E44538.4060706@wrljet.com> Message-ID: <001a01c75a83$23eed9e0$34147544@homedesktop> I agree. Why would GM find it necessary to use the 'automotive' range in their ECM/PCMs? Asking about using 'automotive' range in automotive applications may sound silly, but it appears to be a question of using components with suspect (at least min.) parameters or going the distance on both ends, as even the 85?C range could be considered questionable for underhood temps. Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lewis" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges > > It's really the low side that you might worry about in an > automotive application, since 0?C isn't very cold at all. > > Bill > > Joe Vitek wrote: >> >> Commercial range is 0? to +70?C. Industrial is -40? to +85?C. Automotive >> range is really tough at -40?C to +125?C. >> >>> How does the temp range for 'commercial' differ from 'automotive'? >>> I'm led to believe 'automotive' is designed to function within a wider >>> range of temp variation, with both a lower -?C and higher +?C. If so, >>> why deviate from automotive application norms? From arsoftware at gmail.com Tue Feb 27 09:56:48 2007 From: arsoftware at gmail.com (Alex Ruiz) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:56:48 -0200 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: <001a01c75a83$23eed9e0$34147544@homedesktop> References: <200702271440.l1REeWft009342@ms-smtp-06.tampabay.rr.com> <45E44538.4060706@wrljet.com> <001a01c75a83$23eed9e0$34147544@homedesktop> Message-ID: <7b372cc90702270756xfa997ffy4a22ceaa4d253848@mail.gmail.com> "Why would GM find it necessary to use the 'automotive' range in their ECM/PCMs? " Maybe because their ECM/PCM needs to work in Alaska and somewhere else in India where the ambient temp at night may be towards 44?C. 2007/2/27, gassr : > I agree. > Why would GM find it necessary to use the 'automotive' range in their > ECM/PCMs? Asking about using 'automotive' range in automotive applications > may sound silly, but it appears to be a question of using components with > suspect (at least min.) parameters or going the > distance on both ends, as even the 85?C range could be considered > questionable for underhood temps. > > Gary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Lewis" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges > > > > It's really the low side that you might worry about in an > > automotive application, since 0?C isn't very cold at all. > > > > Bill > > > > Joe Vitek wrote: > >> > >> Commercial range is 0? to +70?C. Industrial is -40? to +85?C. Automotive > >> range is really tough at -40?C to +125?C. > >> > >>> How does the temp range for 'commercial' differ from 'automotive'? > >>> I'm led to believe 'automotive' is designed to function within a wider > >>> range of temp variation, with both a lower -?C and higher +?C. If so, > >>> why deviate from automotive application norms? > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From bill at wrljet.com Tue Feb 27 10:17:11 2007 From: bill at wrljet.com (Bill Lewis) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:17:11 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: <001a01c75a83$23eed9e0$34147544@homedesktop> References: <200702271440.l1REeWft009342@ms-smtp-06.tampabay.rr.com> <45E44538.4060706@wrljet.com> <001a01c75a83$23eed9e0$34147544@homedesktop> Message-ID: <45E45987.7080307@wrljet.com> gassr wrote: > I agree. > Why would GM find it necessary to use the 'automotive' range in their > ECM/PCMs? Asking about using 'automotive' range in automotive > applications may sound silly, but it appears to be a question of using > components with suspect (at least min.) parameters or going the > distance on both ends, as even the 85?C range could be considered > questionable for underhood temps. > > Gary FWIW, Freescale describes parts as belonging to a particular application/ qualification tier. http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/aqtlink.jsp See pages 8-9 in: http://www.freescale.com/files/abstract/misc/CPA_QA_HANDBOOK.pdf They offer three temperature ranges considered Automotive tier, all with -40C low end, and different high ends. ?40?C to 85?C ?40?C to 105?C ?40?C to 125?C These app notes are also useful: http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/app_note/AN2201.pdf?fsrch=1 http://www.intel.com/design/auto/mcs96/applnots/21031302.PDF Bill > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lewis" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:50 AM > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges >> >> It's really the low side that you might worry about in an >> automotive application, since 0?C isn't very cold at all. >> >> Bill >> >> Joe Vitek wrote: >>> >>> Commercial range is 0? to +70?C. Industrial is -40? to +85?C. >>> Automotive range is really tough at -40?C to +125?C. >>> >>>> How does the temp range for 'commercial' differ from 'automotive'? >>>> I'm led to believe 'automotive' is designed to function within a wider >>>> range of temp variation, with both a lower -?C and higher +?C. If so, >>>> why deviate from automotive application norms? From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu Tue Feb 27 11:01:36 2007 From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F6rn_Forsman?=) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:01:36 +0100 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: <7b372cc90702270756xfa997ffy4a22ceaa4d253848@mail.gmail.com> References: <200702271440.l1REeWft009342@ms-smtp-06.tampabay.rr.com> <45E44538.4060706@wrljet.com> <001a01c75a83$23eed9e0$34147544@homedesktop> <7b372cc90702270756xfa997ffy4a22ceaa4d253848@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45E463F0.2030407@gengas.nu> It seems like there are no simple standardized temperature ranges for electronic components today, one must read the fine print of each datasheet instead of just specifying for example "industrial". There are many cases where "industrial" components are specified -25 ... +85 ?C, for example. Some "commercial" components are specified 0 ... +135 ?C , the reason for this is to allow more self heating and come away with a simpler thermal design (smaller cooler etc). There are many cases where manufacturers do their own tests on components or complete systems to determine if they can safely be used beyond the component manufacturer's spec. This is very common on industrial PC motherboards today, as many motherboard components (ethernet controllers, multi I/O chips, graphics controllers) are not available in other than commercial temperature range. I have recently seen an ethernet controller specified for 0 ... +65 ?C in a military computer which is specified for -46 ... +49 ?C storage and -40 ... +75 ?C operation. I know that both the manufacturer and the customer for this PC has done extensive climate tests and found it to pass the tests. In many cases, one can accept minor deviations from the datasheet's data at -40 ?C, say for example that an amplifier for a car radio has somewhat higher crossover distortion than specified. But the part must not totally cease working at low temperatures, and must not be damaged by running at extreme temperatures! Many manufacturers uses to specify -25 ... +85 ?C or -40 ... +85 ?C for general automotive electronics, but the maximum temperature is +110 ?C for under-the hood components. Best regards Torbj?rn Forsman Alex Ruiz wrote: > "Why would GM find it necessary to use the 'automotive' range in their > ECM/PCMs? " > > Maybe because their ECM/PCM needs to work in Alaska and somewhere else > in India where the ambient temp at night may be towards 44?C. > > > 2007/2/27, gassr : > >> I agree. >> Why would GM find it necessary to use the 'automotive' range in their >> ECM/PCMs? Asking about using 'automotive' range in automotive >> applications >> may sound silly, but it appears to be a question of using components with >> suspect (at least min.) parameters or going the >> distance on both ends, as even the 85?C range could be considered >> questionable for underhood temps. >> >> Gary >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bill Lewis" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:50 AM >> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges >> > >> > It's really the low side that you might worry about in an >> > automotive application, since 0?C isn't very cold at all. >> > >> > Bill >> > >> > Joe Vitek wrote: >> >> >> >> Commercial range is 0? to +70?C. Industrial is -40? to +85?C. >> Automotive >> >> range is really tough at -40?C to +125?C. >> >> >> >>> How does the temp range for 'commercial' differ from 'automotive'? >> >>> I'm led to believe 'automotive' is designed to function within a >> wider >> >>> range of temp variation, with both a lower -?C and higher +?C. If so, >> >>> why deviate from automotive application norms? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Diy_efi mailing list >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi >> > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Tue Feb 27 17:25:24 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:25:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: <1172517970.16760.24.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <503976.75016.qm@web32208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > For the moment I am working more on function and > less on boundary conditions - ie I am working with > commercial temp range parts and 'reasonable' power > supply fluctuations. Once the system works in those > conditions I will indeed go to automotive/military > temperature range components and expect zero > goodness from vehicle power :-) I am probably late making the comment, but you probably stand a significant chance of having a bug crop up during development that will eventually be traced back to NOT having done something like spec'ing for wider limits in temp, noise tolerance and/or power supply issues. If this happens, the time spent debugging in the testing the design phase will likely exceed the time (and effort) required to just spec out parts to handle much larger environmental limits than the basic "standard" you're using to get the thing off the ground. Of course, you might NOT run into a problem, and in that case, you'd end up spending only a little more time and effort to up-rate the design after basic development. But to me, it doesn't seem like the initial effort would do anything but potentially speed up development, and could potentially save you some serious headaches... | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail From hernt at mindspring.com Wed Feb 28 00:17:23 2007 From: hernt at mindspring.com (Dave Harvey) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:17:23 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: <503976.75016.qm@web32208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <503976.75016.qm@web32208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E51E73.4060609@mindspring.com> I agree with Adam. The cost of military-grade parts is small compared to the time and expense troubleshooting a thermal or design margin problem. Unless you are GM, making electronics by the millions, a few extra bucks for parts is no big deal. I work at the other end of the scale; designing electronics for space applications where we build a few (or one). In that case, reliability and design margin are everything. I always use the best parts I can get because I've had some bad experiences when I didn't. As a wise engineer once told me when I remarked on the extra size, weight and cost of additional design margin: "The only thing margin saves is your ass." -- Dave Adam Wade wrote: > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > > >> For the moment I am working more on function and >> less on boundary conditions - ie I am working with >> commercial temp range parts and 'reasonable' power >> supply fluctuations. Once the system works in those >> conditions I will indeed go to automotive/military >> temperature range components and expect zero >> goodness from vehicle power :-) >> > > I am probably late making the comment, but you > probably stand a significant chance of having a bug > crop up during development that will eventually be > traced back to NOT having done something like spec'ing > for wider limits in temp, noise tolerance and/or power > supply issues. If this happens, the time spent > debugging in the testing the design phase will likely > exceed the time (and effort) required to just spec out > parts to handle much larger environmental limits than > the basic "standard" you're using to get the thing off > the ground. > > Of course, you might NOT run into a problem, and in > that case, you'd end up spending only a little more > time and effort to up-rate the design after basic > development. But to me, it doesn't seem like the > initial effort would do anything but potentially speed > up development, and could potentially save you some > serious headaches... > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com Wed Feb 28 03:56:33 2007 From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:56:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] RE More ECU progress In-Reply-To: <45E36229.6070809@f2s.com> Message-ID: <78611.26230.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ian Molton wrote: > It will take CAS and cam angle inputs, and use them > to compute the crank angle to better than one > degree. how much better will depend on how good > our interpolation algorithms work). One thing to keep in mind if we want to get the rotary engine crowd. No cam, rotors have 3 "combustion chambers" per, and they rotate at 1/3 "crank" (actually called an eccentric shaft) speed. So in practice, the fuel and spark events are equivalent to a 2 cylinder two-stroke engine (one spark and one fuel event per "crank" rotation). To complicate matters a bit more, there is a set of trailing-edge spark plugs that fire substantially later. They contribute very little to power or fuel economy, but clean up emissions a good bit by getting some of the unburned mixture at the trailing edge of the combustion chamber, which is a long, narrow rectangle that in profile looks not entirely unlike a set of cat-eye tail lights joined in the middle. Many rotary owners will want to be able to drive these plugs as well. Early Mazda rotaries used twin distributors (one for the leading and one for the trailing plugs); 1st gen. RX-7s used a single distributor with a complicated rotor to get the same effect (single coil and two plugs on each circuit). 2nd gen (and I believe the 3rd gen and RX-8) use 3 coils (one of each leading plug and one for both trailing plugs) triggered by ignitors, no distributor. A common conversion for the 1st gen (and possibly earlier rotaries as well) is to use something like an MSD 6A on the leading plugs, using the two coils from a 2nd gen motor, and leaving the trailing plugs run off the distributor with their original coil. We'll probably want to make several options available. What's the status of closed-loop spark control? Is this do-able under the current ion sensing setup? I'd very much like that option; I believe at least one of the research papers I uploaded speaks to the practical application of ion sensing for that very purpose, and I believe it includes ion sensing traces for both over-advanced and over-retarded spark timing. Of course there should be a regular open-loop map, both for a base for the ion sensing to work from and in case of ion sensing failure, as a backup. The idea of having the ECU determine optimal spark timing on the fly, automagically compensating for engine and air temps, humidity, fuel mixture, etc. is something I find very desirable, not least of which is because it is very difficult for a typical DIY-er to be able to optimize a spark map without some high-dollar equipment most don't have ready access to. A closed-loop setup would eliminate the need, as well as allowing compensation for things that cannot be adjusted for any other way (most notably humidity; this would even allow water injection on any engine without the need to figure out how much to adjust stock timing to make best use of it -- and I have data showing that it's quite possible for a typical gasoline-powered engine to make the same power with lower fuel consumption with a combination of water injection, spark advance over base, and a leaner mixture -- even under full throttle). | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. From spyro at f2s.com Wed Feb 28 06:32:38 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:32:38 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE More ECU progress In-Reply-To: <78611.26230.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <78611.26230.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E57666.6000100@f2s.com> Adam Wade wrote: > --- Ian Molton wrote: > >> It will take CAS and cam angle inputs, and use them >> to compute the crank angle to better than one >> degree. how much better will depend on how good >> our interpolation algorithms work). > > One thing to keep in mind if we want to get the rotary > engine crowd. No cam, rotors have 3 "combustion > chambers" per, and they rotate at 1/3 "crank" > (actually called an eccentric shaft) speed. So in > practice, the fuel and spark events are equivalent to > a 2 cylinder two-stroke engine (one spark and one fuel > event per "crank" rotation). My design can handle this as one of the chip registers is a cycle angle register. This sets the maximum that the crank angle value can become before it is reset to zero. obvious values are 720 for a four stroke and 360 for a 2 stroke :) > To complicate matters a > bit more, there is a set of trailing-edge spark plugs > that fire substantially later. Not a problem. simply hook up three more of the chips outputs to spark driver MOSFETs and tell the CPU to add three more spark events to the event table at the deisred advance. > What's the status of closed-loop spark control? Is > this do-able under the current ion sensing setup? Well, the timing controller can certainly handle the programming of any timing for spark. the practical implementation where the CPU reads the ion data and processes it in order to recalculate the timings it programs into the timing controller will have to wait until the system is on a runnable engine. The point is - the hardware design _can_ do this already. > I have data > showing that it's quite possible for a typical > gasoline-powered engine to make the same power with > lower fuel consumption with a combination of water > injection, spark advance over base, and a leaner > mixture -- even under full throttle). Nice :-) the timing controller also would allow one to hook up injectors for gas / nos / water / anything else without any trouble at all. the controller doesnt care what the event is for, it just triggers it. Hm, actually, Im going to increase the size of the fuelling table to allow other types of injector to be PWM'd too. Thanks for getting me thinking on that one. I think 256 entries should be ample... (sheesh, here was me thinking 32 independant PWM'd outputs would be enough... I think I'm going to have to use staggered timing on the PWM clock to prevent silly loads being applied to the power source at high frequencies...) From steve at donegan.org Wed Feb 28 07:47:02 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 05:47:02 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: <45E51E73.4060609@mindspring.com> References: <503976.75016.qm@web32208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45E51E73.4060609@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <1172670422.14826.5.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Well, the key things I see here are: 1) All automotive ECU's I've looked at have had Commercial grade components - and failure of these is very rare. 2) Most components I have selected (thus far) have Commercial and occaisionally Industrial temperature ranges - can I select different parts - perhaps. I have not found any which support Military grade - and my read through Digi-Key and Jameco don't show any Military grade parts (I haven't read both entire catalogs - but of what I have read - not a single part). 3) Least important to me is any additional cost - and from what I've seen thus far the difference between cost for Commercial to Industrial is fairly trivial. So, unless someone can point me to obtainable in qty 1 Mil spec parts I will use Industrial where available and Commercial where I must... On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 22:17 -0800, Dave Harvey wrote: > I agree with Adam. The cost of military-grade parts is small compared > to the time and expense troubleshooting a thermal or design margin > problem. Unless you are GM, making electronics by the millions, a few > extra bucks for parts is no big deal. I work at the other end of the > scale; designing electronics for space applications where we build a few > (or one). In that case, reliability and design margin are everything. > I always use the best parts I can get because I've had some bad > experiences when I didn't. As a wise engineer once told me when I > remarked on the extra size, weight and cost of additional design margin: > "The only thing margin saves is your ass." > > -- Dave > > Adam Wade wrote: > > --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: > > > > > >> For the moment I am working more on function and > >> less on boundary conditions - ie I am working with > >> commercial temp range parts and 'reasonable' power > >> supply fluctuations. Once the system works in those > >> conditions I will indeed go to automotive/military > >> temperature range components and expect zero > >> goodness from vehicle power :-) > >> > > > > I am probably late making the comment, but you > > probably stand a significant chance of having a bug > > crop up during development that will eventually be > > traced back to NOT having done something like spec'ing > > for wider limits in temp, noise tolerance and/or power > > supply issues. If this happens, the time spent > > debugging in the testing the design phase will likely > > exceed the time (and effort) required to just spec out > > parts to handle much larger environmental limits than > > the basic "standard" you're using to get the thing off > > the ground. > > > > Of course, you might NOT run into a problem, and in > > that case, you'd end up spending only a little more > > time and effort to up-rate the design after basic > > development. But to me, it doesn't seem like the > > initial effort would do anything but potentially speed > > up development, and could potentially save you some > > serious headaches... > > > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go > > with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail > > _______________________________________________ > > Diy_efi mailing list > > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From steve at donegan.org Wed Feb 28 07:58:47 2007 From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 05:58:47 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE More ECU progress In-Reply-To: <78611.26230.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <78611.26230.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1172671127.14826.16.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Ian is in fact keeping his eye on 2 stroke applications. He is the one working on the crank trigger area which will likely be hardware (ie CPLD/FPGA). At most I would expect potentially a single set of inputs to that logic that would be jumper or software selectable (I prefer the latter) to give the logic the profile of what it is trying to measure. The ION power supply/current mirror/ADC design, while fairly 'simple' in the electronics sense is only up to usage at the moment with a scope - I do have quite a few ION documents and papers including what you provided Adam and will likely spin the more sophisticated closed loop usage of ION data to a separate group - hopefully one with far more impressive math skills than myself :-) And I am extremely interested in exploring the entire envelope of ION+wideband O2+ouija board for efficiency all the way to maximum HP. I will be making slight (if any are required) changes on the ECU design to support greater temperature range components. The power supply for that board already is about 2x hardened over what Megasquirt uses (or any other auto based DC supply I've seen to date). The preliminary design data should be available on the web site after the coming weekend assuming I have some time to work on it. Sometimes that daily job just intrudes too much on hobbies :-) On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 01:56 -0800, Adam Wade wrote: > --- Ian Molton wrote: > > > It will take CAS and cam angle inputs, and use them > > to compute the crank angle to better than one > > degree. how much better will depend on how good > > our interpolation algorithms work). > > One thing to keep in mind if we want to get the rotary > engine crowd. No cam, rotors have 3 "combustion > chambers" per, and they rotate at 1/3 "crank" > (actually called an eccentric shaft) speed. So in > practice, the fuel and spark events are equivalent to > a 2 cylinder two-stroke engine (one spark and one fuel > event per "crank" rotation). To complicate matters a > bit more, there is a set of trailing-edge spark plugs > that fire substantially later. They contribute very > little to power or fuel economy, but clean up > emissions a good bit by getting some of the unburned > mixture at the trailing edge of the combustion > chamber, which is a long, narrow rectangle that in > profile looks not entirely unlike a set of cat-eye > tail lights joined in the middle. Many rotary owners > will want to be able to drive these plugs as well. > Early Mazda rotaries used twin distributors (one for > the leading and one for the trailing plugs); 1st gen. > RX-7s used a single distributor with a complicated > rotor to get the same effect (single coil and two > plugs on each circuit). 2nd gen (and I believe the > 3rd gen and RX-8) use 3 coils (one of each leading > plug and one for both trailing plugs) triggered by > ignitors, no distributor. A common conversion for the > 1st gen (and possibly earlier rotaries as well) is to > use something like an MSD 6A on the leading plugs, > using the two coils from a 2nd gen motor, and leaving > the trailing plugs run off the distributor with their > original coil. We'll probably want to make several > options available. > > What's the status of closed-loop spark control? Is > this do-able under the current ion sensing setup? I'd > very much like that option; I believe at least one of > the research papers I uploaded speaks to the practical > application of ion sensing for that very purpose, and > I believe it includes ion sensing traces for both > over-advanced and over-retarded spark timing. Of > course there should be a regular open-loop map, both > for a base for the ion sensing to work from and in > case of ion sensing failure, as a backup. The idea of > having the ECU determine optimal spark timing on the > fly, automagically compensating for engine and air > temps, humidity, fuel mixture, etc. is something I > find very desirable, not least of which is because it > is very difficult for a typical DIY-er to be able to > optimize a spark map without some high-dollar > equipment most don't have ready access to. A > closed-loop setup would eliminate the need, as well as > allowing compensation for things that cannot be > adjusted for any other way (most notably humidity; > this would even allow water injection on any engine > without the need to figure out how much to adjust > stock timing to make best use of it -- and I have data > showing that it's quite possible for a typical > gasoline-powered engine to make the same power with > lower fuel consumption with a combination of water > injection, spark advance over base, and a leaner > mixture -- even under full throttle). > > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| > | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | > | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | > | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | > | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | > | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | > | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Have a burning question? > Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From b.shaw at comcast.net Wed Feb 28 08:03:48 2007 From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:03:48 -0500 Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: <1172670422.14826.5.camel@wopr.donegan.org> References: <503976.75016.qm@web32208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45E51E73.4060609@mindspring.com> <1172670422.14826.5.camel@wopr.donegan.org> Message-ID: <45E58BC4.2020905@comcast.net> I've recently been through a similar thing. When sourcing parts for a project I was trying to use automotive grade components, since this box is getting installed in vehicles. The automotive grade of the microprocessors I used have about a 4 month lead time, and this device needs to be in production now. The factory rep suggested that I just use the commercial grade parts and don't worry about it. He said the parts are all manufactured the same, the higher grades are just screened for their temperature performance and the failure rate is very low. In a non-critical application like this the commercial stuff should be fine. hth, ymmv, Bill Steven P. Donegan wrote: > Well, the key things I see here are: > > 1) All automotive ECU's I've looked at have had Commercial grade > components - and failure of these is very rare. > > 2) Most components I have selected (thus far) have Commercial and > occaisionally Industrial temperature ranges - can I select different > parts - perhaps. I have not found any which support Military grade - and > my read through Digi-Key and Jameco don't show any Military grade parts > (I haven't read both entire catalogs - but of what I have read - not a > single part). > > 3) Least important to me is any additional cost - and from what I've > seen thus far the difference between cost for Commercial to Industrial > is fairly trivial. > > So, unless someone can point me to obtainable in qty 1 Mil spec parts I > will use Industrial where available and Commercial where I must... > > On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 22:17 -0800, Dave Harvey wrote: > >> I agree with Adam. The cost of military-grade parts is small compared >> to the time and expense troubleshooting a thermal or design margin >> problem. Unless you are GM, making electronics by the millions, a few >> extra bucks for parts is no big deal. I work at the other end of the >> scale; designing electronics for space applications where we build a few >> (or one). In that case, reliability and design margin are everything. >> I always use the best parts I can get because I've had some bad >> experiences when I didn't. As a wise engineer once told me when I >> remarked on the extra size, weight and cost of additional design margin: >> "The only thing margin saves is your ass." >> >> -- Dave >> >> Adam Wade wrote: >> >>> --- "Steven P. Donegan" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> For the moment I am working more on function and >>>> less on boundary conditions - ie I am working with >>>> commercial temp range parts and 'reasonable' power >>>> supply fluctuations. Once the system works in those >>>> conditions I will indeed go to automotive/military >>>> temperature range components and expect zero >>>> goodness from vehicle power :-) >>>> >>>> >>> I am probably late making the comment, but you >>> probably stand a significant chance of having a bug >>> crop up during development that will eventually be >>> traced back to NOT having done something like spec'ing >>> for wider limits in temp, noise tolerance and/or power >>> supply issues. If this happens, the time spent >>> debugging in the testing the design phase will likely >>> exceed the time (and effort) required to just spec out >>> parts to handle much larger environmental limits than >>> the basic "standard" you're using to get the thing off >>> the ground. >>> >>> Of course, you might NOT run into a problem, and in >>> that case, you'd end up spending only a little more >>> time and effort to up-rate the design after basic >>> development. But to me, it doesn't seem like the >>> initial effort would do anything but potentially speed >>> up development, and could potentially save you some >>> serious headaches... >>> >>> | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) Kawasaki Zephyr 550 (Velma)| >>> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it | >>> | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. | >>> | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. | >>> | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun | >>> | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut | >>> | M/C Fuel Inj. Hndbk. @ Amazon.com - http://tinyurl.com/6o3ze | >>> >>> >>> From ScottyGrover at aol.com Wed Feb 28 10:45:54 2007 From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:45:54 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges Message-ID: In a message dated 2/28/2007 5:49:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, steve at donegan.org writes: Well, the key things I see here are: 1) All automotive ECU's I've looked at have had Commercial grade components - and failure of these is very rare. 2) Most components I have selected (thus far) have Commercial and occaisionally Industrial temperature ranges - can I select different parts - perhaps. I have not found any which support Military grade - and my read through Digi-Key and Jameco don't show any Military grade parts (I haven't read both entire catalogs - but of what I have read - not a single part). 3) Least important to me is any additional cost - and from what I've seen thus far the difference between cost for Commercial to Industrial is fairly trivial. So, unless someone can point me to obtainable in qty 1 Mil spec parts I will use Industrial where available and Commercial where I must... All the electronic manufacturers' catalogs I have seen list CMOS parts as meeting mil.spec. Scotty


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. From donegan at donegan.org Wed Feb 28 11:07:12 2007 From: donegan at donegan.org (Steven Donegan) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:07:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13036.48221.qm@web815.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well then most of the components are already at spec :-) ScottyGrover at aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/28/2007 5:49:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, steve at donegan.org writes: Well, the key things I see here are: 1) All automotive ECU's I've looked at have had Commercial grade components - and failure of these is very rare. 2) Most components I have selected (thus far) have Commercial and occaisionally Industrial temperature ranges - can I select different parts - perhaps. I have not found any which support Military grade - and my read through Digi-Key and Jameco don't show any Military grade parts (I haven't read both entire catalogs - but of what I have read - not a single part). 3) Least important to me is any additional cost - and from what I've seen thus far the difference between cost for Commercial to Industrial is fairly trivial. So, unless someone can point me to obtainable in qty 1 Mil spec parts I will use Industrial where available and Commercial where I must... All the electronic manufacturers' catalogs I have seen list CMOS parts as meeting mil.spec. Scotty ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 28 11:44:57 2007 From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:44:57 -0800 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE More ECU progress In-Reply-To: <45E57666.6000100@f2s.com> References: <78611.26230.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45E57666.6000100@f2s.com> Message-ID: woo...hoo.... that means I could potentially use your ecu for the "stroked" rotary im designing. Mike On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:32:38 +0000, you wrote: >Adam Wade wrote: >> --- Ian Molton wrote: >> >>> It will take CAS and cam angle inputs, and use them >>> to compute the crank angle to better than one >>> degree. how much better will depend on how good >>> our interpolation algorithms work). >> >> One thing to keep in mind if we want to get the rotary >> engine crowd. No cam, rotors have 3 "combustion >> chambers" per, and they rotate at 1/3 "crank" >> (actually called an eccentric shaft) speed. So in >> practice, the fuel and spark events are equivalent to >> a 2 cylinder two-stroke engine (one spark and one fuel >> event per "crank" rotation). > >My design can handle this as one of the chip registers is a cycle angle >register. This sets the maximum that the crank angle value can become >before it is reset to zero. > >obvious values are 720 for a four stroke and 360 for a 2 stroke :) > > > To complicate matters a >> bit more, there is a set of trailing-edge spark plugs >> that fire substantially later. > >Not a problem. simply hook up three more of the chips outputs to spark >driver MOSFETs and tell the CPU to add three more spark events to the >event table at the deisred advance. > >> What's the status of closed-loop spark control? Is >> this do-able under the current ion sensing setup? > >Well, the timing controller can certainly handle the programming of any >timing for spark. > >the practical implementation where the CPU reads the ion data and >processes it in order to recalculate the timings it programs into the >timing controller will have to wait until the system is on a runnable >engine. > >The point is - the hardware design _can_ do this already. > > > I have data >> showing that it's quite possible for a typical >> gasoline-powered engine to make the same power with >> lower fuel consumption with a combination of water >> injection, spark advance over base, and a leaner >> mixture -- even under full throttle). > >Nice :-) > >the timing controller also would allow one to hook up injectors for gas >/ nos / water / anything else without any trouble at all. the controller >doesnt care what the event is for, it just triggers it. > >Hm, actually, Im going to increase the size of the fuelling table to >allow other types of injector to be PWM'd too. Thanks for getting me >thinking on that one. I think 256 entries should be ample... > >(sheesh, here was me thinking 32 independant PWM'd outputs would be >enough... I think I'm going to have to use staggered timing on the PWM >clock to prevent silly loads being applied to the power source at high >frequencies...) >_______________________________________________ >Diy_efi mailing list >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi >Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From j_holland at btopenworld.com Wed Feb 28 12:26:11 2007 From: j_holland at btopenworld.com (James Holland) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:26:11 -0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Diy_efi Digest, Vol 24, Issue 34 Message-ID: > > I agree with Adam. The cost of military-grade parts is small compared > to the time and expense troubleshooting a thermal or design margin > problem. Unless you are GM, making electronics by the millions, a few > extra bucks for parts is no big deal. I work at the other end of the > scale; designing electronics for space applications where we build a few > (or one). In that case, reliability and design margin are everything. > I always use the best parts I can get because I've had some bad > experiences when I didn't. As a wise engineer once told me when I > remarked on the extra size, weight and cost of additional design margin: > "The only thing margin saves is your ass." > > -- Dave > My experience is different. I am in a similar situation, designs can be one offs or just a few. Full MIL Spec parts, 883 and similar, tend to be high cost are not available in 'modern' packages and have long lead times and/or high Minimum Order Quantities. Nearly all our stuff for the military is now built using extended temperature range parts. Military requirements have changed over the last 10 yrs or so and the temperature ranges have reduced for a lot of it. Most requirements now state a power up time from cold and external equipment is fitted with heaters to bring the ambient level up to a 'safe level'. I can see that this approach wouldn't work too well in designs for Space applications were the heater draw would be an issue. Here in the UK parts rated at -40 to +85 or above aren't that difficult to source. Farnell and RS stock a massive range. From j_holland at btopenworld.com Wed Feb 28 12:29:34 2007 From: j_holland at btopenworld.com (James Holland) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:29:34 -0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Project/temperature ranges Message-ID: > > It seems like there are no simple standardized temperature ranges for > electronic components today, one must read the fine print of each > datasheet That is very true. There are also a number of components out there with rather dubious temperature claims. I have seen a number (mainly optos) that claim in big bold letters +85 or similar. The derating curves inside the datasheets show that the maximum allowable power dissipation at +85 is zero!! From j_holland at btopenworld.com Wed Feb 28 12:35:37 2007 From: j_holland at btopenworld.com (James Holland) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:35:37 -0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Fast A/D and FPGA Message-ID: > I'll take that one... > > The fast A/D is for ion sensing. > > Only one ADC is needed per bank of cylinders (bank = set of cylinders > with non overlapping firing events) > > I've designed a spec which will probably go onto an FPGA. I'll put it on > the website shortly. > > snip > > > That sounds like a good plan. I have used a similar approach a few times. A microcontroller and an FPGA can give a huge amount of performance pretty cheaply. There's nothing like parallel processing to speed things up and you can do a lot of things simultaneously in an FPGA. Are you using VHDL for the FPGA design? From donegan at donegan.org Wed Feb 28 12:48:30 2007 From: donegan at donegan.org (Steven Donegan) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:48:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Fast A/D and FPGA Message-ID: <20070228184830.75403.qmail@web802.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> At the moment the fast ADC is a 400K samples/second unit. Depending on scope results on a real engine we should know pretty quickly what the real data rates are going to be. The fast one connects to the future FPGA via parallel connections. The slower ADC's (currently 8 of them) attach to the FPGA via SPI. The FPGA is intended to offload the CPU not only on the collection side but also on the event side - where the FPGA will do things like fire injectors/ignition coils on a 'pre-determined' schedule buy the CPU. If the CPU does not decide an update to state is required the FPGA will just do the pre-computed deeds on schedule. The tools I personally am using allow for the use of Verilog or VHDL. I lean more towards Verilog myself. Ian can use whatever he wants to use :-) At some point the FPGA may well have a CPU core in which case the system chip count goes down a bit... James Holland wrote: > I'll take that one... > > The fast A/D is for ion sensing. > > Only one ADC is needed per bank of cylinders (bank = set of cylinders > with non overlapping firing events) > > I've designed a spec which will probably go onto an FPGA. I'll put it on > the website shortly. > > snip > > > That sounds like a good plan. I have used a similar approach a few times. A microcontroller and an FPGA can give a huge amount of performance pretty cheaply. There's nothing like parallel processing to speed things up and you can do a lot of things simultaneously in an FPGA. Are you using VHDL for the FPGA design? _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From kaizen__ at hotmail.com Wed Feb 28 13:10:09 2007 From: kaizen__ at hotmail.com (Bevan Weiss) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:10:09 +1300 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Fast A/D and FPGA In-Reply-To: <20070228184830.75403.qmail@web802.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20070228184830.75403.qmail@web802.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E5D391.8020008@hotmail.com> I would recommend using a watchdog timer of some sort to ensure that if things go bad the processor (and FPGA) won't just continue on doing anything silly. A separate dedicated watchdog chip isn't very expensive and they're pretty easy to use, the other option (which is nicer in terms of board real estate and unit cost) is to implement the watchdog timer in the FPGA. Bevan > At the moment the fast ADC is a 400K samples/second unit. Depending on scope results on a real engine we should know pretty quickly what the real data rates are going to be. The fast one connects to the future FPGA via parallel connections. The slower ADC's (currently 8 of them) attach to the FPGA via SPI. The FPGA is intended to offload the CPU not only on the collection side but also on the event side - where the FPGA will do things like fire injectors/ignition coils on a 'pre-determined' schedule buy the CPU. If the CPU does not decide an update to state is required the FPGA will just do the pre-computed deeds on schedule. > > The tools I personally am using allow for the use of Verilog or VHDL. I lean more towards Verilog myself. Ian can use whatever he wants to use :-) > > At some point the FPGA may well have a CPU core in which case the system chip count goes down a bit... > > > James Holland wrote: > I'll take that one... > >> The fast A/D is for ion sensing. >> >> Only one ADC is needed per bank of cylinders (bank = set of cylinders >> with non overlapping firing events) >> >> I've designed a spec which will probably go onto an FPGA. I'll put it on >> the website shortly. >> >> snip >> >> >> >> > > That sounds like a good plan. I have used a similar approach a few times. A > microcontroller and an FPGA can give a huge amount of performance pretty > cheaply. There's nothing like parallel processing to speed things up and you > can do a lot of things simultaneously in an FPGA. Are you using VHDL for the > FPGA design? > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > From donegan at donegan.org Wed Feb 28 15:34:54 2007 From: donegan at donegan.org (Steven Donegan) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:34:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Fast A/D and FPGA In-Reply-To: <45E5D391.8020008@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <557552.37557.qm@web806.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ian is already on the watchdog timer thing - I am thinking a signal from the CPU to the FPGA on perhaps a once/second - hard to imagine any steady state situation where a 1 second timer wouldn't be sufficient. However if you have any other thoughts please share them. Bevan Weiss wrote: I would recommend using a watchdog timer of some sort to ensure that if things go bad the processor (and FPGA) won't just continue on doing anything silly. A separate dedicated watchdog chip isn't very expensive and they're pretty easy to use, the other option (which is nicer in terms of board real estate and unit cost) is to implement the watchdog timer in the FPGA. Bevan > At the moment the fast ADC is a 400K samples/second unit. Depending on scope results on a real engine we should know pretty quickly what the real data rates are going to be. The fast one connects to the future FPGA via parallel connections. The slower ADC's (currently 8 of them) attach to the FPGA via SPI. The FPGA is intended to offload the CPU not only on the collection side but also on the event side - where the FPGA will do things like fire injectors/ignition coils on a 'pre-determined' schedule buy the CPU. If the CPU does not decide an update to state is required the FPGA will just do the pre-computed deeds on schedule. > > The tools I personally am using allow for the use of Verilog or VHDL. I lean more towards Verilog myself. Ian can use whatever he wants to use :-) > > At some point the FPGA may well have a CPU core in which case the system chip count goes down a bit... > > > James Holland wrote: > I'll take that one... > >> The fast A/D is for ion sensing. >> >> Only one ADC is needed per bank of cylinders (bank = set of cylinders >> with non overlapping firing events) >> >> I've designed a spec which will probably go onto an FPGA. I'll put it on >> the website shortly. >> >> snip >> >> >> >> > > That sounds like a good plan. I have used a similar approach a few times. A > microcontroller and an FPGA can give a huge amount of performance pretty > cheaply. There's nothing like parallel processing to speed things up and you > can do a lot of things simultaneously in an FPGA. Are you using VHDL for the > FPGA design? > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > _______________________________________________ > Diy_efi mailing list > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi > Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi > > > _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi From ScottyGrover at aol.com Wed Feb 28 17:37:33 2007 From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:37:33 EST Subject: [Diy_efi] Project/temperature ranges Message-ID: In a message dated 2/28/2007 9:09:18 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, donegan at donegan.org writes: Well then most of the components are already at spec :-) I'd better qualify that; the components I referred to are integrated circuits, not microcontrollers; i have breadboarded a design without microcontroller nor memory but it does require a lot of IC's. I'm working to redesign the system using a Basic Atom; now if I could just get the Atom's installing and programming software to work on my PC-------.. Scotty


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. From spyro at f2s.com Wed Feb 28 18:15:38 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:15:38 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE: Fast A/D and FPGA In-Reply-To: <557552.37557.qm@web806.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <557552.37557.qm@web806.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45E61B2A.6020602@f2s.com> Steven Donegan wrote: > Ian is already on the watchdog timer thing - I am thinking a signal > from the CPU to the FPGA on perhaps a once/second - hard to imagine > any steady state situation where a 1 second timer wouldn't be > sufficient. Actually the current FPGA design has no WDT in it. it does have a reset line - the idea being that if the system WDT fires, all is reset. the default FPGA state after reset will be 'do nothing'. What the system WDT is, is not defined. eventually it'll probably be inside the FPGA, along with the rest of the ECU. I expect early on, the ARMs own WDT will suffice. > However if you have any other thoughts please share them. Yes, all input is good. From spyro at f2s.com Wed Feb 28 18:17:35 2007 From: spyro at f2s.com (Ian Molton) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:17:35 +0000 Subject: [Diy_efi] RE More ECU progress In-Reply-To: References: <78611.26230.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <45E57666.6000100@f2s.com> Message-ID: <45E61B9F.5060609@f2s.com> Mike Yates wrote: > woo...hoo.... that means I could potentially use your ecu for the > "stroked" rotary im designing. If you do, I wanna see it run ;-)