From davida1 at hiwaay.net  Sat Sep  1 12:45:15 2007
From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 12:45:15 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Project underway...
Message-ID: <008f01c7ecbf$ddcda8e0$a000a8c0@yancey.com>

  I'm working on a project with a friend, converting a 1940's Ford 255CID 
flathead V8 from carb and points to a TBI/ 1227747 setup.  The electronics 
hardware side is done.  The engine has an afermarket distributor with a 
conventional VR pickup coil.  This is connected to a standard HEI module 
that is firing an MSD box. In the pictures the advance weights are still 
present, but they have been removed and the advance bolted so the ECM can 
control the timing.
  Here's where I want you guys' thoughts.  The intake manifold has a huge 
plenum, look at pictures linked at bottom. We're using a 4.3V6 throttle body 
and injectors.  Do you think the injectors flow enough for accel enrich to 
keep from bogging when you open it?  It is a very mismatched setup on the 
engine/ cam/ manifold but this is what we have to work with.
  We'll be using Cats RT Tuner and a wideband to adjust the VE tables.  This 
has been a fun project so far, but the real fun will be making it run 
correctly. It will be an open-loop calibration, tuned for drivability first, 
power second.  Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance,
David

http://68.209.87.173/FlatheadEFI/



From philippek at sympatico.ca  Sat Sep  1 16:00:53 2007
From: philippek at sympatico.ca (Philippe)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 17:00:53 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
Message-ID: <000f01c7ecdb$304a5800$0b02a8c0@philippe7315fe>

i forgive my password

From joevitek at cfl.rr.com  Sat Sep  1 16:10:09 2007
From: joevitek at cfl.rr.com (joevitek at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 17:10:09 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
Message-ID: <31481411.533261188681009308.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web05-z02>

---- Philippe <philippek at sympatico.ca> wrote: 
> i forgive my password

Did your password do something bad? :D


From spyro at f2s.com  Sat Sep  1 16:09:19 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 22:09:19 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <000f01c7ecdb$304a5800$0b02a8c0@philippe7315fe>
References: <000f01c7ecdb$304a5800$0b02a8c0@philippe7315fe>
Message-ID: <1188680959.25578.5.camel@wirenth>

On Sat, 2007-09-01 at 17:00 -0400, Philippe wrote:
> i forgive my password

Im sure it'll be happy to know that



From niche at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  4 02:14:34 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:14:34 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hotwire AFM at other than atmospheric pressures
In-Reply-To: <31481411.533261188681009308.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web05-z02
 >
References: <31481411.533261188681009308.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web05-z02>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070904140147.027a6170@iinet.net.au>>

Hi Chaps,

Many years ago I recall reading in respect of the traditional hot wire AFM's
that Bosch suggested they not be used much above atmospheric pressure
and were generally designed for use at intakes to engines that used turbos
and not in any way on the compressor outlet regardless of charge temperature.

There are a few people however using them reliably on the exit of intercoolers
up to approx 10-20psi boost on ECU's that have no method of pressure sensing,
such as the factory Bosch/Hitachi ECU used on RB30 motors etc... Its also
been observed that for large Intercoolers its beneficial to run them afterwards
if at least for faster transient load response.

Here is a data sheet for the VLT Commodore AFM but I cant see any exception
report re operation at pressure, given the hot wire AFM is for the most part a
true mass flow sensing device then can anyone guess the issue re operation
at 20psi - other than perhaps a structural failure and/or can someone hazard
a guess what the type of derating might be operating at that higher pressure,
such as running leaner in that it would report less flow than actually exists etc...

http://niche.iinet.net.au/VL_Technical/Bosch_MAF_900Kg.pdf

Observations welcome ?

Incidentally, the part number on the VLT Holden Commodore unit is 0 280 212 008
and I'm advised its the 900Kg range (but now I cant be sure) however, it doesnt match
the part number in the PDF file I got from a techie working for GMH many years ago :-(

Anyone have a PDF of the 0 280 212 008  AFM by chance ?





Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From davida1 at hiwaay.net  Tue Sep  4 07:27:40 2007
From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 07:27:40 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hotwire AFM at other than atmospheric pressures
References: <31481411.533261188681009308.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web05-z02>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070904140147.027a6170@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <016301c7eeee$fe25dd70$a000a8c0@yancey.com>

  Just a small observation - the datasheet does say it measures 
independantly of air density.  That would make me beleive it would still 
register accurate mass-flow even under pressure.
  You might look at the sealing of the electronics package on top of the 
meter - from my euro car days I remember these open to the inside of the 
meter housing where the measured airflow is.  The circuitry was covered in 
soft gel.  If the measured air were way above atmospheric, it could force 
pressure inside the housing with the meter's electronics, then allow the gel 
to be expelled into the air stream as the pressure was released.  Just my 
two cents worth!
David


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:14 AM
Subject: [Diy_efi] Hotwire AFM at other than atmospheric pressures


> Hi Chaps,
>
> Many years ago I recall reading in respect of the traditional hot wire 
> AFM's
> that Bosch suggested they not be used much above atmospheric pressure
> and were generally designed for use at intakes to engines that used turbos
> and not in any way on the compressor outlet regardless of charge 
> temperature.
>
> There are a few people however using them reliably on the exit of 
> intercoolers
> up to approx 10-20psi boost on ECU's that have no method of pressure 
> sensing,
> such as the factory Bosch/Hitachi ECU used on RB30 motors etc... Its also
> been observed that for large Intercoolers its beneficial to run them 
> afterwards
> if at least for faster transient load response.
>
> Here is a data sheet for the VLT Commodore AFM but I cant see any 
> exception
> report re operation at pressure, given the hot wire AFM is for the most 
> part a
> true mass flow sensing device then can anyone guess the issue re operation
> at 20psi - other than perhaps a structural failure and/or can someone 
> hazard
> a guess what the type of derating might be operating at that higher 
> pressure,
> such as running leaner in that it would report less flow than actually 
> exists etc...
>
> http://niche.iinet.net.au/VL_Technical/Bosch_MAF_900Kg.pdf
>
> Observations welcome ?
>
> Incidentally, the part number on the VLT Holden Commodore unit is 0 280 
> 212 008
> and I'm advised its the 900Kg range (but now I cant be sure) however, it 
> doesnt match
> the part number in the PDF file I got from a techie working for GMH many 
> years ago :-(
>
> Anyone have a PDF of the 0 280 212 008  AFM by chance ?
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards from
>
>
> Mike
> Perth, Western Australia
> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed 
> !
> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 



From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Tue Sep  4 08:38:58 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 08:38:58 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Project underway...
In-Reply-To: <008f01c7ecbf$ddcda8e0$a000a8c0@yancey.com>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F94866116@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

Outstanding job ! Thanks for sending the pictures. You mention it is a 255 cube so it must have a 4 inch stroke Mercury crank to get those cubes. Some hot rodder has gone through the engine it sounds like. Flat heads don't take a lot of timing. you are not gonna get big Horse Power numbers with an unblown flathead, 250 HP would be a lot. Most hot rodded flatties run 2 150 CFM Carb's
a 4.3 TBI can easily flow more than that. Keep us Posted, this is a great project. 
      

 

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of David Allen
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 12:45 PM
To: GM-ECM; diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] Project underway...


  I'm working on a project with a friend, converting a 1940's Ford 255CID 
flathead V8 from carb and points to a TBI/ 1227747 setup.  The electronics 
hardware side is done.  The engine has an afermarket distributor with a 
conventional VR pickup coil.  This is connected to a standard HEI module 
that is firing an MSD box. In the pictures the advance weights are still 
present, but they have been removed and the advance bolted so the ECM can 
control the timing.
  Here's where I want you guys' thoughts.  The intake manifold has a huge 
plenum, look at pictures linked at bottom. We're using a 4.3V6 throttle body 
and injectors.  Do you think the injectors flow enough for accel enrich to 
keep from bogging when you open it?  It is a very mismatched setup on the 
engine/ cam/ manifold but this is what we have to work with.
  We'll be using Cats RT Tuner and a wideband to adjust the VE tables.  This 
has been a fun project so far, but the real fun will be making it run 
correctly. It will be an open-loop calibration, tuned for drivability first, 
power second.  Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance,
David

http://68.209.87.173/FlatheadEFI/

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies. 
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
Thank You.
**************************************************


From davida1 at hiwaay.net  Tue Sep  4 10:28:13 2007
From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:28:13 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Project underway...
References: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F94866116@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
Message-ID: <005501c7ef08$362db350$a100a8c0@yancey.com>

  Don, Richard (who owns this car) explained that the motor was freshly 
built in 1965 by Red Farmer's engine builder and has less than 10 hours on 
it. You're correct it has a Mercury crankshaft, which has been lightened and 
knife-edged.  We're unsure of the exact compression ratio or of the 
camshaft.  The CR is likely 8.5:1 or better.  We're really looking for 
drivability more than power, this car's main purpose in life is to be unique 
more than fast!
  He bought the motor in a pickup that had been barn-kept for a long time 
(unsure).  They ran the engine when he got it, but the distributor and carb 
were bad.  It idled high with constant shooting and flaming from the 
exhaust. They couldn't tell how the cam would idle because of the carb and 
dist.  Richard has a stock cam if the one in it is "ludicrous" and can not 
be tuned for any sort of drivability.  Interesting about the timing, will 
take some of the PE timing advance out of the stock calibration before 
running it hard, for safety's sake.  I know this will take some time and 
patience to tune. This is a first for me; I've put EFI on turbo engines, 
boat engines, and re-tuned several factory-EFI setups but this a flathead 
motor is new territory.
  At this point it has not been started in about 10 years. Will post newer 
pictures as the project progresses.
Thanks,
David

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <don.broadus at exeloncorp.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 8:38 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Project underway...


> Outstanding job ! Thanks for sending the pictures. You mention it is a 255 
> cube so it must have a 4 inch stroke Mercury crank to get those cubes. 
> Some hot rodder has gone through the engine it sounds like. Flat heads 
> don't take a lot of timing. you are not gonna get big Horse Power numbers 
> with an unblown flathead, 250 HP would be a lot. Most hot rodded flatties 
> run 2 150 CFM Carb's
> a 4.3 TBI can easily flow more than that. Keep us Posted, this is a great 
> project.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of David Allen
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 12:45 PM
> To: GM-ECM; diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Project underway...
>
>
>  I'm working on a project with a friend, converting a 1940's Ford 255CID
> flathead V8 from carb and points to a TBI/ 1227747 setup.  The electronics
> hardware side is done.  The engine has an afermarket distributor with a
> conventional VR pickup coil.  This is connected to a standard HEI module
> that is firing an MSD box. In the pictures the advance weights are still
> present, but they have been removed and the advance bolted so the ECM can
> control the timing.
>  Here's where I want you guys' thoughts.  The intake manifold has a huge
> plenum, look at pictures linked at bottom. We're using a 4.3V6 throttle 
> body
> and injectors.  Do you think the injectors flow enough for accel enrich to
> keep from bogging when you open it?  It is a very mismatched setup on the
> engine/ cam/ manifold but this is what we have to work with.
>  We'll be using Cats RT Tuner and a wideband to adjust the VE tables. 
> This
> has been a fun project so far, but the real fun will be making it run
> correctly. It will be an open-loop calibration, tuned for drivability 
> first,
> power second.  Any thoughts?
> Thanks in advance,
> David
>
> http://68.209.87.173/FlatheadEFI/ 



From A6intruder at myo-p.com  Tue Sep  4 10:44:56 2007
From: A6intruder at myo-p.com (Daniel Nicoson)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:44:56 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
Message-ID: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEMEKKKBAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>

I just saw this little microprocessor.  You guys building EFI controllers
might like some of it's capabilities.

32-bit powertrain flash MCU employs 90-nm process
Microcontroller achieves 200-MHz speed and operation up to 125C
Said to be the industry's first 90-nm-process microcontroller with on-chip
flash memory, the 200-MHz SH72546RFCC gains a fourfold speed increase over
its predecessors and features flash memory capacity of 3.75 Mbytesamong the
largest available. The device operates at -40 to 125?C and is optimized for
control systems for automobile engines, transmissions, and other systems
that require real-time control.
The chip's superscalar design has a double-precision floating-point unit and
a cache unit that allows single-cycle access to the flash. The chip has a
multifunction timer unit with up to 106 outputs, dual multichannel DMA
controllers, an interrupt controller, and a 37-channel 12-bit A/D converter,
as well as CAN, SCI, and SPI interfaces.

The IC is a preproduction device offering features to aid software design
and debug. The 272-pin PBGA-packaged IC is the basis for an upcoming
lower-cost mass-production product family that will have performance,
package, and pin arrangement compatibility. Engineers performing system
development using the SH72546RFCC will be able to make a speedy and seamless
transition to lower-cost mass-production devices. ($980available October.)
Renesas Technology America, San Jose, CA
Technical Support 408-382-7500
http://www.america.renesas.com


Do you think there are enough A/D channels?

Dan Nicoson




From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Tue Sep  4 11:16:18 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:16:18 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Project underway...
In-Reply-To: <005501c7ef08$362db350$a100a8c0@yancey.com>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F94866118@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

Hi David: Sounds like a cool ride. I looked up my notes on the advance , I thought it was 24 deg max. but wanted to be sure. The old street rodder tech (google "an old Flame: Ford Flathead")
talks about timing and cams. I'll bet it has an ISKY 400-Jr it is a 3/4 race grind that was very popular in the 60's and is still being used. Flat heads can be tricky to get running right.
you might have to degree the cam to make sure it is set up right. I will do some more searching
for tech stuff. Take Care  Don
   

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of David Allen
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 10:28 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Project underway...


  Don, Richard (who owns this car) explained that the motor was freshly 
built in 1965 by Red Farmer's engine builder and has less than 10 hours on 
it. You're correct it has a Mercury crankshaft, which has been lightened and 
knife-edged.  We're unsure of the exact compression ratio or of the 
camshaft.  The CR is likely 8.5:1 or better.  We're really looking for 
drivability more than power, this car's main purpose in life is to be unique 
more than fast!
  He bought the motor in a pickup that had been barn-kept for a long time 
(unsure).  They ran the engine when he got it, but the distributor and carb 
were bad.  It idled high with constant shooting and flaming from the 
exhaust. They couldn't tell how the cam would idle because of the carb and 
dist.  Richard has a stock cam if the one in it is "ludicrous" and can not 
be tuned for any sort of drivability.  Interesting about the timing, will 
take some of the PE timing advance out of the stock calibration before 
running it hard, for safety's sake.  I know this will take some time and 
patience to tune. This is a first for me; I've put EFI on turbo engines, 
boat engines, and re-tuned several factory-EFI setups but this a flathead 
motor is new territory.
  At this point it has not been started in about 10 years. Will post newer 
pictures as the project progresses.
Thanks,
David

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <don.broadus at exeloncorp.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 8:38 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Project underway...


> Outstanding job ! Thanks for sending the pictures. You mention it is a 255 
> cube so it must have a 4 inch stroke Mercury crank to get those cubes. 
> Some hot rodder has gone through the engine it sounds like. Flat heads 
> don't take a lot of timing. you are not gonna get big Horse Power numbers 
> with an unblown flathead, 250 HP would be a lot. Most hot rodded flatties 
> run 2 150 CFM Carb's
> a 4.3 TBI can easily flow more than that. Keep us Posted, this is a great 
> project.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
> Behalf Of David Allen
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 12:45 PM
> To: GM-ECM; diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Project underway...
>
>
>  I'm working on a project with a friend, converting a 1940's Ford 255CID
> flathead V8 from carb and points to a TBI/ 1227747 setup.  The electronics
> hardware side is done.  The engine has an afermarket distributor with a
> conventional VR pickup coil.  This is connected to a standard HEI module
> that is firing an MSD box. In the pictures the advance weights are still
> present, but they have been removed and the advance bolted so the ECM can
> control the timing.
>  Here's where I want you guys' thoughts.  The intake manifold has a huge
> plenum, look at pictures linked at bottom. We're using a 4.3V6 throttle 
> body
> and injectors.  Do you think the injectors flow enough for accel enrich to
> keep from bogging when you open it?  It is a very mismatched setup on the
> engine/ cam/ manifold but this is what we have to work with.
>  We'll be using Cats RT Tuner and a wideband to adjust the VE tables. 
> This
> has been a fun project so far, but the real fun will be making it run
> correctly. It will be an open-loop calibration, tuned for drivability 
> first,
> power second.  Any thoughts?
> Thanks in advance,
> David
>
> http://68.209.87.173/FlatheadEFI/ 

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies. 
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
Thank You.
**************************************************


From joevitek at cfl.rr.com  Tue Sep  4 11:31:55 2007
From: joevitek at cfl.rr.com (joevitek at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:31:55 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
Message-ID: <12157413.878921188923515350.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web16-z01>

---- Daniel Nicoson <A6intruder at myo-p.com> wrote: 
> 
> Do you think there are enough A/D channels?

Dang, 37 channels of A/D!!

Might not be enough... ;)

--
joe


From niche at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  4 11:51:09 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:51:09 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <12157413.878921188923515350.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web16-z01
 >
References: <12157413.878921188923515350.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web16-z01>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070905003727.027a90c0@iinet.net.au>>

At 12:31 AM 9/5/07, you wrote:
>---- Daniel Nicoson <A6intruder at myo-p.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> Do you think there are enough A/D channels?
>
>Dang, 37 channels of A/D!!
>
>Might not be enough... ;)

mmm, I'm wondering...

for a V8:-

8 channels of ion sensing feedback
8 AFM/MAP sensors, one per port
8 Detonation sensors, one per cylinder
8 local high speed EGT sensors, one per port

Then we have:-

1 x Vbatt
1 x Engine Coolant temp
2 x O2 sensor feedback, one per side
1 x Torque sensor on engine mounts

Think that covers it for a broad brush efi/acquisition system, of course the
ion sensing and detonation would have some duplication/overlap but hey we dont
want our 20,000 rpm F1 engine to miss even one firing...!

But hey a V12 would need a pair of the beasts ;-)

mike







>--
>joe
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu  Tue Sep  4 12:36:08 2007
From: torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu (=?UTF-8?B?VG9yYmrDtnJuIEZvcnNtYW4=?=)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:36:08 +0200
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <12157413.878921188923515350.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web16-z01>
References: <12157413.878921188923515350.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web16-z01>
Message-ID: <46DD9788.4010300@gengas.nu>

But a 272-pin BGA is not so easy for a DIY project, using a such package 
means that the PCBs have to be assembled and soldered on a proper 
production line. I am somewhat reluctant to using BGAs for automotive, 
military and other demanding applications as the package and solder 
balls are entirely stiff. There is nothing like the soft bent pins of a 
QFP or PLCC that can relieve thermal stresses etc.

Anyway, many people have experienced trouble with high-performance A/D's 
integrated on a microcontroller chip. That might be noise, 
ground-bounce, various features that need many silicon revisions until 
they work reliably...
If one wants to avoid problems with the A/D, then it is better to use a 
separate A/D chip. As this chip can be manufactured with processes that 
are more optimised for analog performance, chances are better that it 
will work well.

Best regards

Torbj?rn Forsman

joevitek at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> ---- Daniel Nicoson <A6intruder at myo-p.com> wrote: 
> 
>>Do you think there are enough A/D channels?
> 
> 
> Dang, 37 channels of A/D!!
> 
> Might not be enough... ;)
> 
> --
> joe
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 



From joevitek at cfl.rr.com  Tue Sep  4 13:44:36 2007
From: joevitek at cfl.rr.com (joevitek at cfl.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:44:36 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
Message-ID: <29121084.571551188931476129.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z01>

I agree. My experience so far with BGAs in a production environment has been pretty good, however, I am leary of using them in a high vibe, wide temp environment. Also, the A/D comments are very valid. I can't tell you how many revisions of silicon we went through with integrated A/Ds until we got it right. Very expensive learning curve...

--
joe

---- "Torbj?rn Forsman" <torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu> wrote: 
> But a 272-pin BGA is not so easy for a DIY project, using a such package 
> means that the PCBs have to be assembled and soldered on a proper 
> production line. I am somewhat reluctant to using BGAs for automotive, 
> military and other demanding applications as the package and solder 
> balls are entirely stiff. There is nothing like the soft bent pins of a 
> QFP or PLCC that can relieve thermal stresses etc.
> 
> Anyway, many people have experienced trouble with high-performance A/D's 
> integrated on a microcontroller chip. That might be noise, 
> ground-bounce, various features that need many silicon revisions until 
> they work reliably...
> If one wants to avoid problems with the A/D, then it is better to use a 
> separate A/D chip. As this chip can be manufactured with processes that 
> are more optimised for analog performance, chances are better that it 
> will work well.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Torbj?rn Forsman


From spyro at f2s.com  Tue Sep  4 14:52:51 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:52:51 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <29121084.571551188931476129.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z01>
References: <29121084.571551188931476129.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z01>
Message-ID: <1188935571.2239.4.camel@wirenth>

On Tue, 2007-09-04 at 14:44 -0400, joevitek at cfl.rr.com wrote:
> I agree. My experience so far with BGAs in a production environment has been pretty good, however, I am leary of using them in a high vibe, wide temp environment. Also, the A/D comments are very valid. I can't tell you how many revisions of silicon we went through with integrated A/Ds until we got it right. Very expensive learning curve...

Small BGAs are actually space certified now. the problem in space is the
extreme thermal stress which in PLCCs etc. is taken up by the leads.



From niche at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  4 15:03:01 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:03:01 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <1188935571.2239.4.camel@wirenth>
References: <29121084.571551188931476129.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z01>
	<1188935571.2239.4.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070905040126.02aeccd0@iinet.net.au>>

At 03:52 AM 9/5/07, you wrote:

>Small BGAs are actually space certified now. the problem in space is the
>extreme thermal stress which in PLCCs etc. is taken up by the leads.

Yes good point but, surely thats because the assembly of chip to board is
already closely thermally matched, we might not be able to achieve that
so easily if we buy chips and order our own boards separately or dare I say it - even etch
them ourselves...




Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep  4 15:23:15 2007
From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:23:15 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <1188935571.2239.4.camel@wirenth>
References: <29121084.571551188931476129.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z01>
	<1188935571.2239.4.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <sffrd3p55vf1nalsqo3aes2g8qg4m0sbdc@4ax.com>

Be wary of "space certified" i manufacture satelite and "space"
hardware that's used for heat dissipation, let me tell you what these
puppies move heat like nothing else, thermal uniformity is very easy
for engineers to control nowadays...at least in the satelite
development side. However the vibration/g limits are drastically
higher than any automotive application. So i'd say they are good on
that regard.

Mike


On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:52:51 +0100, you wrote:

>On Tue, 2007-09-04 at 14:44 -0400, joevitek at cfl.rr.com wrote:
>> I agree. My experience so far with BGAs in a production environment has been pretty good, however, I am leary of using them in a high vibe, wide temp environment. Also, the A/D comments are very valid. I can't tell you how many revisions of silicon we went through with integrated A/Ds until we got it right. Very expensive learning curve...
>
>Small BGAs are actually space certified now. the problem in space is the
>extreme thermal stress which in PLCCs etc. is taken up by the leads.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From spyro at f2s.com  Tue Sep  4 16:13:56 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:13:56 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070905040126.02aeccd0@iinet.net.au>>
References: <29121084.571551188931476129.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z01>
	<1188935571.2239.4.camel@wirenth>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070905040126.02aeccd0@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <1188940436.2272.1.camel@wirenth>

On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 04:03 +0800, Mike wrote:
> At 03:52 AM 9/5/07, you wrote:
> 
> >Small BGAs are actually space certified now. the problem in space is the
> >extreme thermal stress which in PLCCs etc. is taken up by the leads.
> 
> Yes good point but, surely thats because the assembly of chip to board is
> already closely thermally matched, we might not be able to achieve that
> so easily if we buy chips and order our own boards separately or dare I say it - even etch
> them ourselves...

true, however we also dont experience 300 degree temperature swings down
here ;-)

put it this way - BGA CPUs have been run at and above 100 deg C with
daily heat cyclilng - without any ill effects. (not that I recommend
such abuse - but its been done.



From b.shaw at comcast.net  Tue Sep  4 17:05:20 2007
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:05:20 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <1188935571.2239.4.camel@wirenth>
References: <29121084.571551188931476129.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z01>
	<1188935571.2239.4.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <46DDD6A0.5000508@comcast.net>

Same problem is killing xbox 360's by the millions right now.  It's got 
to be done right if it's going to last. When it's done with proper 
thermal considerations it (the bga) works well, but it's got to be done 
right to last.  GM (for one) seems to have licked the design and 
assembly problems to produce a robust device.

Bill

ian wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-09-04 at 14:44 -0400, joevitek at cfl.rr.com wrote:
>   
>> I agree. My experience so far with BGAs in a production environment has been pretty good, however, I am leary of using them in a high vibe, wide temp environment. Also, the A/D comments are very valid. I can't tell you how many revisions of silicon we went through with integrated A/Ds until we got it right. Very expensive learning curve...
>>     
>
> Small BGAs are actually space certified now. the problem in space is the
> extreme thermal stress which in PLCCs etc. is taken up by the leads.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>   


From b.shaw at comcast.net  Tue Sep  4 17:24:58 2007
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:24:58 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEMEKKKBAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
References: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEMEKKKBAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
Message-ID: <46DDDB3A.9030005@comcast.net>

The problem is usually the development system.  Unless you do gnu it's 
pretty expensive to buy the tools.  I know Renesas is good about giving 
developers the software tools with the smaller parts (I use R8C/10s on a 
few devices),  but I don't know about the bigger parts.  Do they have a 
free version of HEW for this part?

If you're looking for an interesting controller ecu controller the 
Freescale MPC5554 is worth a look.  Few $k for the Metrowerks compiler,  
few $k for the Lauterbach debugger (emulator),  couple k more for the 
Freescale Rappid tool and you're good to go. :-) 
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC5554&nodeId=0162468rH3bTdG0325

PowerPC E processor, 2 meg flash, 64k ram, dma engine, flexcam engine, 
serial/deserial engine, analog converter engine, more.  Set up all the 
engines using the dma controller and they all run in parallel with the 
PPC.  Oh yes,  *AND* the dual TPU!  The time processing unit can 
independently read the engine position sensors and provide injector, 
spark, and cam timing without processor intervention.

BTW, Robin - I just brought home the Axiom MPC565 development board 
tonight.   I need to set up a development environment for it next,  
haven't even had a chance to see what's on the cd yet..

Best,

Bill

Daniel Nicoson wrote:
> I just saw this little microprocessor.  You guys building EFI controllers
> might like some of it's capabilities.
>
> 32-bit powertrain flash MCU employs 90-nm process
> Microcontroller achieves 200-MHz speed and operation up to 125C
> Said to be the industry's first 90-nm-process microcontroller with on-chip
> flash memory, the 200-MHz SH72546RFCC gains a fourfold speed increase over
> its predecessors and features flash memory capacity of 3.75 Mbytesamong the
> largest available. The device operates at -40 to 125?C and is optimized for
> control systems for automobile engines, transmissions, and other systems
> that require real-time control.
> The chip's superscalar design has a double-precision floating-point unit and
> a cache unit that allows single-cycle access to the flash. The chip has a
> multifunction timer unit with up to 106 outputs, dual multichannel DMA
> controllers, an interrupt controller, and a 37-channel 12-bit A/D converter,
> as well as CAN, SCI, and SPI interfaces.
>
> The IC is a preproduction device offering features to aid software design
> and debug. The 272-pin PBGA-packaged IC is the basis for an upcoming
> lower-cost mass-production product family that will have performance,
> package, and pin arrangement compatibility. Engineers performing system
> development using the SH72546RFCC will be able to make a speedy and seamless
> transition to lower-cost mass-production devices. ($980available October.)
> Renesas Technology America, San Jose, CA
> Technical Support 408-382-7500
> http://www.america.renesas.com
>
>
> Do you think there are enough A/D channels?
>
> Dan Nicoson
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>   


From niche at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  4 22:41:47 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:41:47 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro ... Cygnal/Silabs
In-Reply-To: <1188940436.2272.1.camel@wirenth>
References: <29121084.571551188931476129.JavaMail.root@cdptpa-web02-z01>
	<1188935571.2239.4.camel@wirenth>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070905040126.02aeccd0@iinet.net.au>
	<1188940436.2272.1.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070905113608.02728820@iinet.net.au>>

As another alternative, I have used the cygnal series,
has on chip built in code debugger with real time breakpoints
and all through low cost jtag module and *free* windows debug software
and assemblers too !!

http://www.silabs.com/

Variable mix of A/d and digital with an 8051 core some up to 100mips...!

Much much lower cost than the BGA devices and many package options,

Check out the selector guide, from tiny 11 pin smt devices to full on
large packages with multiple 12 bit a/d - been around for a few years so
one would expect the mixed signal issues are debugged by now,

I used to favour the atmel series of 2051 and 4051 series along with 89s53 but
now use the cygnal as the code is identical but can use the debugger to even
emulate other devices to some degree...




Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From niche at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep  4 22:48:27 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:48:27 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro ... Cygnal/Silabs
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070905114753.027330c0@iinet.net.au>>

hi again,

Heres a low cost USB cpu chip evaluation tool, 

http://www.silabs.com/tgwWebApp/public/web_content/products/Microcontrollers/en/USBToolStick.htm



Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 00:20:59 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:20:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Project underway...
In-Reply-To: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F94866116@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
Message-ID: <629020.92572.qm@web50305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

If you want to see the coolest flathead Ford engines
ever, check out http://www.uncommonengineering.com/

He's even brought back the dual 4-71 blower setup.
That would have to punch some power out of a flathead.
:)

This guy's other passion is taking Hudson straight 6
flatheads to the maximum, adding extra main bearing
webs and a custom forged 7 bearing crank, blower, EFI
and more.


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow  


From spyro at f2s.com  Wed Sep  5 02:29:52 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 08:29:52 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Project underway...
In-Reply-To: <629020.92572.qm@web50305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <629020.92572.qm@web50305.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1188977392.4308.3.camel@wirenth>

On Tue, 2007-09-04 at 22:20 -0700, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> If you want to see the coolest flathead Ford engines
> ever, check out http://www.uncommonengineering.com/

good grief. thats like engine porn :-)

too bad his site and photos are lousy though :(



From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 02:49:53 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 00:49:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <46DD9788.4010300@gengas.nu>
Message-ID: <721809.28839.qm@web50312.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Torbj?rn Forsman <torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu>
wrote:

> But a 272-pin BGA is not so easy for a DIY project,
> using a such package 
> means that the PCBs have to be assembled and
> soldered on a proper 
> production line. I am somewhat reluctant to using
> BGAs for automotive, 
> military and other demanding applications as the
> package and solder 
> balls are entirely stiff. There is nothing like the
> soft bent pins of a 
> QFP or PLCC that can relieve thermal stresses etc.

There are sockets for BGA chips but I expect they're
plenty expensive, and probably are themselves surface
mount.

Then there's Intel's Pentium 4 line that use the
LGA775 socket. Leadless Grid Array. It has 775 little
springy spikes poking up to contact pads on the bottom
of the CPU. The chip's held down by a steel clamp ring
and locking lever. (Remember the LCC style 80286?
Everything old is new again!)

I've heard of people doing SMT soldering in a toaster
oven- suitably upgraded with a pyrometer controlling a
switch in the line cord. Set the pyrometer and turn
the oven up to max. ;) That takes the oven's
thermostat out of the control loop. Turn the board
upside down for an SMT desoldering unit, just be sure
to supply a tray to catch the parts!


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/


From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 03:24:19 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 01:24:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <sffrd3p55vf1nalsqo3aes2g8qg4m0sbdc@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <844902.58618.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Can the chip be obtained on a 'test' board or carrier
board with pins or solder points around the edges?

That'd make it less compact but open it up to
soldering by hand.


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC


From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  5 03:32:34 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 01:32:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <1188940436.2272.1.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <775767.82580.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- ian <spyro at f2s.com> wrote:

> true, however we also dont experience 300 degree
> temperature swings down
> here ;-)
> 
> put it this way - BGA CPUs have been run at and
> above 100 deg C with
> daily heat cyclilng - without any ill effects. (not
> that I recommend
> such abuse - but its been done.

Done every day with some PC chipsets. They've been
using BGA for years, some of them run so hot they need
heatsinks and fans the size that were used on the
later 486 CPUs. Look up an intel DG965OT and goggle at
the huge heatsink on its chipset. Granted, it is
passive with no fan of its own, but it's almost as big
as the passive heatsinks I've seen on Socket 370 Pentiums.


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz 


From spyro at f2s.com  Wed Sep  5 06:46:32 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:46:32 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <721809.28839.qm@web50312.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <721809.28839.qm@web50312.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1188992792.2603.3.camel@wirenth>

On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 00:49 -0700, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> Turn the board
> upside down for an SMT desoldering unit, just be sure
> to supply a tray to catch the parts! 

Not if you dont want to set the board on fire...

it takes a LOT of force to shift even small BGAs from those boards.
surface tension is amazing. even with the solder fulyl melted and a
sharp smack on the side of the board, sometimes the things just dont
move.

I have a method which wont turn the board crispy black - use a hot air
gun - the type for stripping paint / wallpaper. heat the board and use a
screwdriver to push (not lift) the chip sideways. once the solder melts,
the chip will move. once it starts to move, slide the blade under the
chip and twist (gently! the boards get plyable at these temperatures)

HTH.



From b.shaw at comcast.net  Wed Sep  5 06:50:31 2007
From: b.shaw at comcast.net (Bill Shaw)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 07:50:31 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Reflow - was Here's a little micro to build on...
In-Reply-To: <721809.28839.qm@web50312.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <721809.28839.qm@web50312.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46DE9807.4010808@comcast.net>

You mean like this?
https://www.articulationllc.com/displayProductDocument.hg?productId=2&categoryId=6

It actually works very well.  :-)

Bill

Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> --- Torbj?rn Forsman <torbjorn.forsman at gengas.nu>
> wrote:
>
>   
>> But a 272-pin BGA is not so easy for a DIY project,
>> using a such package 
>> means that the PCBs have to be assembled and
>> soldered on a proper 
>> production line. I am somewhat reluctant to using
>> BGAs for automotive, 
>> military and other demanding applications as the
>> package and solder 
>> balls are entirely stiff. There is nothing like the
>> soft bent pins of a 
>> QFP or PLCC that can relieve thermal stresses etc.
>>     
>
> There are sockets for BGA chips but I expect they're
> plenty expensive, and probably are themselves surface
> mount.
>
> Then there's Intel's Pentium 4 line that use the
> LGA775 socket. Leadless Grid Array. It has 775 little
> springy spikes poking up to contact pads on the bottom
> of the CPU. The chip's held down by a steel clamp ring
> and locking lever. (Remember the LCC style 80286?
> Everything old is new again!)
>
> I've heard of people doing SMT soldering in a toaster
> oven- suitably upgraded with a pyrometer controlling a
> switch in the line cord. Set the pyrometer and turn
> the oven up to max. ;) That takes the oven's
> thermostat out of the control loop. Turn the board
> upside down for an SMT desoldering unit, just be sure
> to supply a tray to catch the parts!
>
>
>        
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>   


From spyro at f2s.com  Wed Sep  5 16:42:13 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:42:13 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
Message-ID: <1189028533.2603.11.camel@wirenth>

Hi guys.

Im considering adding water injection to my little 1.0 turbo diesel
charade.

has anyone done something similar and has advice?

Im intending to use a washer pump and agricultural (metal) spray nozzle,
with a PWM controller that increases the pump duty cycle based on boost
pressure in the plenum. I was intending to spray directly into the
plenum, so as not to have water interfering with the turbo.

thoughts ?



From klaus at Innovate-tech.com  Wed Sep  5 17:02:35 2007
From: klaus at Innovate-tech.com (Klaus Allmendinger)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:02:35 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <1189028533.2603.11.camel@wirenth>
References: <1189028533.2603.11.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB297224A@ITFC1.innovate.com>

Why?

Water injection on a gasoline engine is mainly there for knock
supression. A diesel operates on "knock". It lives by compression
ignition, which in a spark ignited engine is the reason for knock. The
only reason I can think of for using port WI on a diesel is for slight
NOx reduction. In a diesel with port WI this results in an increase in
CO and HC emissions and a slight increase in fuel consumption from all
the research papers I read.

- Klaus


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of ian
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:42 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection

Hi guys.

Im considering adding water injection to my little 1.0 turbo diesel
charade.

has anyone done something similar and has advice?

Im intending to use a washer pump and agricultural (metal) spray nozzle,
with a PWM controller that increases the pump duty cycle based on boost
pressure in the plenum. I was intending to spray directly into the
plenum, so as not to have water interfering with the turbo.

thoughts ?

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From bearbvd at mindspring.com  Wed Sep  5 18:46:53 2007
From: bearbvd at mindspring.com (bearbvd at mindspring.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 19:46:53 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
Message-ID: <380-2200793523465338@M2W014.mail2web.com>



Original Message:
-----------------
From: Klaus Allmendinger klaus at Innovate-tech.com
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:02:35 -0700
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection


Why?

Water injection on a gasoline engine is mainly there for knock
supression. A diesel operates on "knock". It lives by compression
ignition, which in a spark ignited engine is the reason for knock. The
only reason I can think of for using port WI on a diesel is for slight
NOx reduction. In a diesel with port WI this results in an increase in
CO and HC emissions and a slight increase in fuel consumption from all
the research papers I read.


BZZZZZZZTTT !!!

First of all, a diesel does NOT operate on 'KNOCK' !!! Detonation will
destroy a diesel absolutely as fast as it will destroy a spark ignition
(Otto cycle) engine.

The burn in a diesel happens as fast as the fuel is EVAPORATED (after
atomization). This is NOT an 'explosive' process, as knock is. This is
PRECISELY why a diesel will destroy itself if fed a fuel which is harder to
ignite (to low a cetane rating) , such as gasoline !!!

WI in the ports of a diesel isn't worth much, but it CAN be EVERY bit as
effective as an intercooler if injected immediately post compressor !!

WI , done properly, as an 'internal coolant' IS an effective knock
suppressant, but it does a LOT more than that. GO READ THE ARCHIVES !!!!!

Greg

- Klaus


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of ian
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:42 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection

Hi guys.

Im considering adding water injection to my little 1.0 turbo diesel
charade.

has anyone done something similar and has advice?

Im intending to use a washer pump and agricultural (metal) spray nozzle,
with a PWM controller that increases the pump duty cycle based on boost
pressure in the plenum. I was intending to spray directly into the
plenum, so as not to have water interfering with the turbo.

thoughts ?

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

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From davida1 at hiwaay.net  Wed Sep  5 19:55:26 2007
From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 19:55:26 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
References: <380-2200793523465338@M2W014.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <007301c7f020$ab726890$2062a6a6@yancey.com>

  Some pulling tractors use water injection and multiple turbos at 250PSI 
plus boost, and LOADS of diesel fuel; they are getting 2000 HP 
(intermittent) from an engine that was originally made to put out 200 HP.
David


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <bearbvd at mindspring.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 6:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection


>
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Klaus Allmendinger klaus at Innovate-tech.com
> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:02:35 -0700
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection
>
>
> Why?
>
> Water injection on a gasoline engine is mainly there for knock
> supression. A diesel operates on "knock". It lives by compression
> ignition, which in a spark ignited engine is the reason for knock. The
> only reason I can think of for using port WI on a diesel is for slight
> NOx reduction. In a diesel with port WI this results in an increase in
> CO and HC emissions and a slight increase in fuel consumption from all
> the research papers I read.
>
>
> BZZZZZZZTTT !!!
>
> First of all, a diesel does NOT operate on 'KNOCK' !!! Detonation will
> destroy a diesel absolutely as fast as it will destroy a spark ignition
> (Otto cycle) engine.
>
> The burn in a diesel happens as fast as the fuel is EVAPORATED (after
> atomization). This is NOT an 'explosive' process, as knock is. This is
> PRECISELY why a diesel will destroy itself if fed a fuel which is harder 
> to
> ignite (to low a cetane rating) , such as gasoline !!!
>
> WI in the ports of a diesel isn't worth much, but it CAN be EVERY bit as
> effective as an intercooler if injected immediately post compressor !!
>
> WI , done properly, as an 'internal coolant' IS an effective knock
> suppressant, but it does a LOT more than that. GO READ THE ARCHIVES !!!!!
>
> Greg
>
> - Klaus
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
> On Behalf Of ian
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:42 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
>
> Hi guys.
>
> Im considering adding water injection to my little 1.0 turbo diesel
> charade.
>
> has anyone done something similar and has advice?
>
> Im intending to use a washer pump and agricultural (metal) spray nozzle,
> with a PWM controller that increases the pump duty cycle based on boost
> pressure in the plenum. I was intending to spray directly into the
> plenum, so as not to have water interfering with the turbo.
>
> thoughts ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web.com - Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on 
> Microsoft?
> Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
> 



From niche at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  5 22:28:58 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:28:58 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <007301c7f020$ab726890$2062a6a6@yancey.com>
References: <380-2200793523465338@M2W014.mail2web.com>
	<007301c7f020$ab726890$2062a6a6@yancey.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070906111026.027b0930@iinet.net.au>>

At 08:55 AM 9/6/07, you wrote:
> Some pulling tractors use water injection and multiple turbos at 250PSI plus boost, and LOADS of diesel fuel; they are getting 2000 HP (intermittent) from an engine that was originally made to put out 200 HP.
>David

Yes very true, they run whats called a "Wet Manifold" which huge amounts of water and its often
chilled as well. I have a Power point file with some pictures of a tractor engine modified for the
pulling competition which split the block horizontally - ie Not at the head but horizontally through
the outside of the block, pretty amazing set of pics, I'll see if I can upload it to my web area if I
can find room, I recall the pics were taken as it happened !

By the way, it might appear that a diesel operates from compression ignition, and that is often
confused with knock. But what actually happens is, the compression heats the air so its above
the ignition temperature of the fuel so that as soon as the injection pump and injector manifolding
starts to spray fuel into the top of the combustion area it immediately burns (smoothly) as soon
is the injection event proceeds. It is helpful to have a stronger engine geometry as it is more
stressful on the pistons and big ends due to to higher compression ratio but it is not at all a
knock condition. The sound a diesel makes might also be interpreted as knock but it isnt.

So for a n/a diesel engine the only useful thing that water injection (WI) can do is:-

a. Over a period of time it cleans off carbon deposits pretty effectively if there is enough water
    and its in the form of a mist/droplets and not a vapour when it gets into the chamber
b. If as a result of excessive carbon buildup or engine problems there is knock, then WI is a
   useful and cheap knock suppressant and over time by scouring off carbon deposits which
   might have caused propensity to knock then WI can lengthen the life of the engine.
   Incidentally, as a result of this it might well increase fuelk economy a little but only if there
   is some knocking happening without WI

The trick is to have enough water and at the right mist/droplet size, you dont want vapour
by any means as all it will do is displace the air and reduce efficiency.

For a turbo, yes good amounts of water will be effective to reduce chance of knock and even
better if the water is chilled and perhaps with the addition of a little methanol so it wont ice
up as easily at the nozzle if its chilled and the engine is getting WI some time below max boost.

A good type of water injection system is one in which chilled water is constantly circulated
through the piping at above manifold pressure much like the fuel return system in a gasoline
EFI engine. ie Have the spray solenoid off a 'T' junction close to the atomiser so the system
has minimal delay to spray as soon as a preset level of boost is present etc...

PWM of the water pump might be ok but you really need to develop enough pressure at the
nozzle early on to ensure you get consistent droplet size regardless of flowrate, it would be
ideal if there were a PWM solenoid atomiser with a 'T' feed for all the reasons described,



Regards from


Mike Massen
Network Power Systems
Lab 08 9444 8961
Mb 0438 048961
Perth, Western Australia
* VL/VK & VN/VP/VR GMH Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
* RB30 Skyline/Nissan/VL Milspec ignition drivers with diagnostic features now in economy trials
* Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
* Industrial grade PolyVinyliDeneChloride (PVDC Copolymer) in bulk, the best
  oxygen and water protective barrier you can find for circuit boards.
* Special equipment on offer, 60KVA UPS with large battery cabinet - AUD$12K
Web site under construction   http://niche.iinet.net.au




>----- Original Message ----- From: <bearbvd at mindspring.com>
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 6:46 PM
>Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection
>
>
>>
>>
>>Original Message:
>>-----------------
>>From: Klaus Allmendinger klaus at Innovate-tech.com
>>Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:02:35 -0700
>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection
>>
>>
>>Why?
>>
>>Water injection on a gasoline engine is mainly there for knock
>>supression. A diesel operates on "knock". It lives by compression
>>ignition, which in a spark ignited engine is the reason for knock. The
>>only reason I can think of for using port WI on a diesel is for slight
>>NOx reduction. In a diesel with port WI this results in an increase in
>>CO and HC emissions and a slight increase in fuel consumption from all
>>the research papers I read.
>>
>>
>>BZZZZZZZTTT !!!
>>
>>First of all, a diesel does NOT operate on 'KNOCK' !!! Detonation will
>>destroy a diesel absolutely as fast as it will destroy a spark ignition
>>(Otto cycle) engine.
>>
>>The burn in a diesel happens as fast as the fuel is EVAPORATED (after
>>atomization). This is NOT an 'explosive' process, as knock is. This is
>>PRECISELY why a diesel will destroy itself if fed a fuel which is harder to
>>ignite (to low a cetane rating) , such as gasoline !!!
>>
>>WI in the ports of a diesel isn't worth much, but it CAN be EVERY bit as
>>effective as an intercooler if injected immediately post compressor !!
>>
>>WI , done properly, as an 'internal coolant' IS an effective knock
>>suppressant, but it does a LOT more than that. GO READ THE ARCHIVES !!!!!
>>
>>Greg
>>
>>- Klaus
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
>>On Behalf Of ian
>>Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:42 PM
>>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
>>
>>Hi guys.
>>
>>Im considering adding water injection to my little 1.0 turbo diesel
>>charade.
>>
>>has anyone done something similar and has advice?
>>
>>Im intending to use a washer pump and agricultural (metal) spray nozzle,
>>with a PWM controller that increases the pump duty cycle based on boost
>>pressure in the plenum. I was intending to spray directly into the
>>plenum, so as not to have water interfering with the turbo.
>>
>>thoughts ?


From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net  Wed Sep  5 22:30:13 2007
From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:30:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
Message-ID: <38015.61527.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

<Some pulling tractors use water injection and multiple turbos at 250PSI>

So, this is interesting! What kind of pressure pump and nozzles are used to overcome the 250PSI of the boost? It takes a healthy pump to overcome the 15 to 20 #'s in a typical turbo gas system, I would think a small pump from a low power pressure sprayer might work!

-rick

From niche at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep  5 23:18:03 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:18:03 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <38015.61527.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <38015.61527.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070906121237.027b44d0@iinet.net.au>>

At 11:30 AM 9/6/07, you wrote:
><Some pulling tractors use water injection and multiple turbos at 250PSI> So, this is interesting! What kind of pressure pump and nozzles are used to overcome the 250PSI of the boost? It takes a healthy pump to overcome the 15 to 20 #'s in a typical turbo gas system, I would think a small pump from a low power pressure sprayer might work! -rick

Classic system is to use the same boost pressure to feed the pump inside a suitable
housing of course so the pump body doesnt blow apart, that way the pump is also only
raising the pressure relative to its inlet so a cheapish pump might well be suitable,
the nozzles and piping prob being steel means they can handle much more pressure
than that, might also be possible the housing is pre-pressurised and not dependent on
the timing of how the boost comes on, this is all short run stuff but pretty extreme nonetheless !

Hey I wonder if any medical students are moonlighting in tractor pulling, they could feed
in pure O2 in controllable bursts just when its needed - lol !




From niche at iinet.net.au  Thu Sep  6 00:03:53 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:03:53 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
 alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070906121237.027b44d0@iinet.net.au>>
References: <38015.61527.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070906121237.027b44d0@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070906125305.027b8d50@iinet.net.au>>

Hi Guys,

Here is a gauge which I will be connecting up soon to verify some fuel
pressure issues on my RB30ET motor running 10psi off a hiflow T3, the gauge is
at the max of its scale since the fuel pressure for the motor is 250.1Kpa, Ive opened
the unit and it has safe movement for another 10% of scale without major drama,

http://niche.iinet.net.au/For_sale/Differential_Pressure_Gauge/small_DSC06030.JPG

Although i can use this to some degree, the last time - I actually made a differential
gauge from a standard gauge and pressurised the housing from the manifold, it worked
for a time, the housing eventually broke, ie Plastic cover. But I did manage to use it for
a few days, the problem is it suffered so much needle jitter making it very hard to asses
the reading !

http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/Diff_Gauge_side.jpg

So I'm looking for a new differential gauge, like the one in first picture, but that has an
oil filled or other damped needle movement and maybe a drag pointer if at all possible, hard
I know due to the oil fill issue but since the housing isnt at either pressure and most
differential gauges have dual internal plenum then the housing is only ever at atmos...

Anyway, I've trolled a few search engine sites and not had much luck, hence my query,

Thanks






Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From buckwill33 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  6 04:46:21 2007
From: buckwill33 at hotmail.com (Buck Williams)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 02:46:21 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB297224A@ITFC1.innovate.com>
References: <1189028533.2603.11.camel@wirenth>
	<2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB297224A@ITFC1.innovate.com>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W3058D8D138232F1F3485C4CEC40@phx.gbl>

that turbo is goian from 30 to 150 thou k revolautions per min,,,, severala times the speed of sound,,, if waterdroplest heit it can erode jsut the same as rain in turbine jet engiane,,,, spray into the manifold behind the turbine,, buck

> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:02:35 -0700> From: klaus at Innovate-tech.com> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org> > Why?> > Water injection on a gasoline engine is mainly there for knock> supression. A diesel operates on "knock". It lives by compression> ignition, which in a spark ignited engine is the reason for knock. The> only reason I can think of for using port WI on a diesel is for slight> NOx reduction. In a diesel with port WI this results in an increase in> CO and HC emissions and a slight increase in fuel consumption from all> the research papers I read.> > - Klaus> > > -----Original Message-----> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]> On Behalf Of ian> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:42 PM> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection> > Hi guys.> > Im considering adding water injection to my little 1.0 turbo diesel> charade.> > has anyone done something similar and has advice?> > Im intending to use a washer pump and agricultural (metal) spray nozzle,> with a PWM controller that increases the pump duty cycle based on boost> pressure in the plenum. I was intending to spray directly into the> plenum, so as not to have water interfering with the turbo.> > thoughts ?> > _______________________________________________> Diy_efi mailing list> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi> _______________________________________________> Diy_efi mailing list> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From davida1 at hiwaay.net  Thu Sep  6 06:30:24 2007
From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 06:30:24 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
References: <38015.61527.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005301c7f07a$12d45490$5000a8c0@yancey.com>

One I've seen uses a Vickers Vane hydraulic pump, which was the original 
steering pump on the engine.  The man I talked to mixes his water with 
soluble oil (as used for machinist's tool cooling) to protect the pump; and 
injects at over 1000 PSI through nozzles like used on a pressure-washer. 
Injection is per-cylinder at the intake ports,  plus one nozzle just after 
the last turbo at the inlet of the intake manifold. There is a lot of water, 
but I'm not sure the exact volume.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick McLeod" <dunvegan at sbcglobal.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection


> <Some pulling tractors use water injection and multiple turbos at 250PSI>
>
> So, this is interesting! What kind of pressure pump and nozzles are used 
> to overcome the 250PSI of the boost? It takes a healthy pump to overcome 
> the 15 to 20 #'s in a typical turbo gas system, I would think a small pump 
> from a low power pressure sprayer might work!
>
> -rick
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
> 



From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep  6 08:32:07 2007
From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 06:32:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
	alternatives ?
Message-ID: <31534.49200.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Why not come up w/ an electronic system, one that summarizes the difference of two sensors, one in the manifold and one in the fuel log. This would then allow smoothing to be applied elecrically. For that matter, you could also use a 'expanded' technique to monitor more critially w/ an electronic system.

just my 2 cents worth, but not enough to buy a cup of joe


----- Original Message ----
From: Mike <niche at iinet.net.au>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2007 12:03:53 AM
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge, alternatives ?


Hi Guys,

Here is a gauge which I will be connecting up soon to verify some fuel
pressure issues on my RB30ET motor running 10psi off a hiflow T3, the gauge is
at the max of its scale since the fuel pressure for the motor is 250.1Kpa, Ive opened
the unit and it has safe movement for another 10% of scale without major drama,

http://niche.iinet.net.au/For_sale/Differential_Pressure_Gauge/small_DSC06030.JPG

Although i can use this to some degree, the last time - I actually made a differential
gauge from a standard gauge and pressurised the housing from the manifold, it worked
for a time, the housing eventually broke, ie Plastic cover. But I did manage to use it for
a few days, the problem is it suffered so much needle jitter making it very hard to asses
the reading !

http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/Diff_Gauge_side.jpg

So I'm looking for a new differential gauge, like the one in first picture, but that has an
oil filled or other damped needle movement and maybe a drag pointer if at all possible, hard
I know due to the oil fill issue but since the housing isnt at either pressure and most
differential gauges have dual internal plenum then the housing is only ever at atmos...

Anyway, I've trolled a few search engine sites and not had much luck, hence my query,

Thanks






Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Sep  6 08:35:10 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:35:10 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB297224A@ITFC1.innovate.com>
References: <1189028533.2603.11.camel@wirenth>
	<2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB297224A@ITFC1.innovate.com>
Message-ID: <1189085710.2603.16.camel@wirenth>

On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 15:02 -0700, Klaus Allmendinger wrote:
> Why?
> 
> Water injection on a gasoline engine is mainly there for knock
> supression. A diesel operates on "knock".

Not true. Knock (explosive combustion) will shred a diesel as quickly
(if not quicker, due to the pressure) than a petrol engine.

>  It lives by compression
> ignition, which in a spark ignited engine is the reason for knock.

no. compression ignition doesnt imply knock. in fact, a diesel will have
a nice, constant burn as fuel is injected.

>  The
> only reason I can think of for using port WI on a diesel is for slight
> NOx reduction. In a diesel with port WI this results in an increase in
> CO and HC emissions and a slight increase in fuel consumption from all
> the research papers I read.

My engine is turbo'd. cooling the air will result in a denser air
charge, and thus more power under boost.



From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Sep  6 08:35:43 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:35:43 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W3058D8D138232F1F3485C4CEC40@phx.gbl>
References: <1189028533.2603.11.camel@wirenth>
	<2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB297224A@ITFC1.innovate.com>
	<BAY112-W3058D8D138232F1F3485C4CEC40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1189085743.2603.18.camel@wirenth>

On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 02:46 -0700, Buck Williams wrote:
> that turbo is goian from 30 to 150 thou k revolautions per min,,,,
> severala times the speed of sound,,, if waterdroplest heit it can
> erode jsut the same as rain in turbine jet engiane,,,, spray into the
> manifold behind the turbine,, buck

Yup - thats my intention - plenum injection.



From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Sep  6 08:38:24 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:38:24 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070906111026.027b0930@iinet.net.au>>
References: <380-2200793523465338@M2W014.mail2web.com>
	<007301c7f020$ab726890$2062a6a6@yancey.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070906111026.027b0930@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <1189085904.2603.21.camel@wirenth>

On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 11:28 +0800, Mike wrote:
> 
> A good type of water injection system is one in which chilled water is
> constantly circulated
> through the piping at above manifold pressure much like the fuel
> return system in a gasoline EFI engine.

Yes, I considered that as I dont want heat soak warming up the
(relatively) slow moving water in the piping.

for initial testing, though, Im going to skip that and go for direct
feed and a fairly narrow (but thick) pipe.

>  ie Have the spray solenoid off a 'T' junction close to the atomiser
> so the system
> has minimal delay to spray as soon as a preset level of boost is
> present etc...

thats for later :)

> PWM of the water pump might be ok but you really need to develop
> enough pressure at the
> nozzle early on to ensure you get consistent droplet size regardless
> of flowrate, it would be
> ideal if there were a PWM solenoid atomiser with a 'T' feed for all
> the reasons described,

one idea I may try is a piezo 'fogger'



From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Sep  6 08:39:27 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:39:27 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070906121237.027b44d0@iinet.net.au>>
References: <38015.61527.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070906121237.027b44d0@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <1189085967.2603.23.camel@wirenth>

On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 12:18 +0800, Mike wrote:
> Hey I wonder if any medical students are moonlighting in tractor
> pulling, they could feed
> in pure O2 in controllable bursts just when its needed - lol ! 

screw that. med studens can get NOS :)



From niche at iinet.net.au  Thu Sep  6 08:41:25 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:41:25 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <31534.49200.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <31534.49200.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070906213803.027b31d0@iinet.net.au>>

Yeah good point Rick,
Motorola do have a couple of good differential transducers, its just the convenience aspect, I'm
not yet looking for another product development route, just something utilitarian but expedient,
though one does wonder why there arent more EFI based electronic tools around for that sort of
thing, maybe we are all getting so used to plug and play and find resistance to doing something
a bit different, who knows, thanks

mike
ps: Not sure what "cup of joe" means, we is from Australia and have our own peculiar dialect since
we are flat out like a lizard drinking while looking out for a galah...




At 09:32 PM 9/6/07, you wrote:
>Why not come up w/ an electronic system, one that summarizes the difference of two sensors, one in the manifold and one in the fuel log. This would then allow smoothing to be applied elecrically. For that matter, you could also use a 'expanded' technique to monitor more critially w/ an electronic system. just my 2 cents worth, but not enough to buy a cup of joe ----- Original Message ---- From: Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2007 12:03:53 AM Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge, alternatives ? Hi Guys, Here is a gauge which I will be connecting up soon to verify some fuel pressure issues on my RB30ET motor running 10psi off a hiflow T3, the gauge is at the max of its scale since the fuel pressure for the motor is 250.1Kpa, Ive opened the unit and it has safe movement for another 10% of scale without major drama, http://niche.iinet.net.au/For_sale/Differential_Pressure_Gauge/small_DSC06030.JPG Although i can use this to some degree, the last time - I actually made a differential gauge from a standard gauge and pressurised the housing from the manifold, it worked for a time, the housing eventually broke, ie Plastic cover. But I did manage to use it for a few days, the problem is it suffered so much needle jitter making it very hard to asses the reading ! http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/Diff_Gauge_side.jpg So I'm looking for a new differential gauge, like the one in first picture, but that has an oil filled or other damped needle movement and maybe a drag pointer if at all possible, hard I know due to the oil fill issue but since the housing isnt at either pressure and most differential gauges have dual internal plenum then the housing is only ever at atmos... Anyway, I've trolled a few search engine sites and not had much luck, hence my query, Thanks Regards from Mike Perth, Western Australia VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  ! Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au _______________________________________________ Diy_efi mailing list Diy_efi at diy-efi.org Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Sep  6 08:41:51 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:41:51 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <005301c7f07a$12d45490$5000a8c0@yancey.com>
References: <38015.61527.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<005301c7f07a$12d45490$5000a8c0@yancey.com>
Message-ID: <1189086111.2603.26.camel@wirenth>

On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 06:30 -0500, David Allen wrote:
> One I've seen uses a Vickers Vane hydraulic pump, which was the
> original steering pump on the engine.  The man I talked to mixes his
> water with soluble oil (as used for machinist's tool cooling) to
> protect the pump; and injects at over 1000 PSI through nozzles like
> used on a pressure-washer. Injection is per-cylinder at the intake
> ports,  plus one nozzle just after the last turbo at the inlet of the
> intake manifold. There is a lot of water, but I'm not sure the exact
> volume. 

As Im going for a daily driver, I am aiming to use minimal water as
efficiently as possible... and its a tiny engine so a small plenum (2
litre plenum max at a guess) so a single point injector should be ok...




From davida1 at hiwaay.net  Thu Sep  6 09:08:24 2007
From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:08:24 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
References: <38015.61527.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com><005301c7f07a$12d45490$5000a8c0@yancey.com>
	<1189086111.2603.26.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <00c301c7f08f$67cc4ba0$5000a8c0@yancey.com>

I agree with you on a daily driver! I just wanted to throw that out since 
diesels had been brought up and it is kind of interesting.   Keep us posted 
on your progress!
Thanks,
David

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ian" <spyro at f2s.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection


> On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 06:30 -0500, David Allen wrote:
>> One I've seen uses a Vickers Vane hydraulic pump, which was the
>> original steering pump on the engine.  The man I talked to mixes his
>> water with soluble oil (as used for machinist's tool cooling) to
>> protect the pump; and injects at over 1000 PSI through nozzles like
>> used on a pressure-washer. Injection is per-cylinder at the intake
>> ports,  plus one nozzle just after the last turbo at the inlet of the
>> intake manifold. There is a lot of water, but I'm not sure the exact
>> volume.
>
> As Im going for a daily driver, I am aiming to use minimal water as
> efficiently as possible... and its a tiny engine so a small plenum (2
> litre plenum max at a guess) so a single point injector should be ok...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 



From airhawk at hawkgt.net  Thu Sep  6 09:33:18 2007
From: airhawk at hawkgt.net (The AirHawk)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:33:18 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: water injection
Message-ID: <e2d0ed2f8748495b8019ddff1947eb5d@hawkgt.net>

>On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 12:18 +0800, Mike wrote:
>> Hey I wonder if any medical students are moonlighting in tractor
>> pulling, they could feed
>> in pure O2 in controllable bursts just when its needed - lol ! 

>screw that. med studens can get NOS :)

Double-screw that! 

Pure Oxidizer (O2) + Petrol-based Accelerant = BOMB

No ignition necessary.

-Scott


From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep  6 09:37:28 2007
From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
	alternatives ?
Message-ID: <798114.6041.qm@web80513.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

/joe/java/ or /joe/coffee/


ps: Not sure what "cup of joe" means, we is from Australia and have our own peculiar dialect since
we are flat out like a lizard drinking while looking out for a galah...

From krawczuk65 at dodo.com.au  Thu Sep  6 09:58:21 2007
From: krawczuk65 at dodo.com.au (mark krawczuk)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 00:28:21 +0930
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
	alternatives ?
References: <798114.6041.qm@web80513.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c7f096$5ed7cc70$a993a33a@markzu35x5eu9m>

then we bleed the lizzard, or water me horse.
mark k


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick McLeod" <dunvegan at sbcglobal.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement 
gauge,alternatives ?


/joe/java/ or /joe/coffee/


ps: Not sure what "cup of joe" means, we is from Australia and have our own 
peculiar dialect since
we are flat out like a lizard drinking while looking out for a galah...
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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2:55 PM




From klaus at Innovate-tech.com  Thu Sep  6 09:57:11 2007
From: klaus at Innovate-tech.com (Klaus Allmendinger)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:57:11 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <380-2200793523465338@M2W014.mail2web.com>
References: <380-2200793523465338@M2W014.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB297225D@ITFC1.innovate.com>

Hi,

I did not want to imply that diesels "knock". They work by compression
ignition, with a steady burn. Knock of course applies to gas engines. 
BUT: Diesels can also "knock", but that is hard to do. In a diesel the
spray evaporates, creating a local charge with very much varying lambda
within the spray cone. After injection the droplets evaporate and, after
a delay dependent on the local lambda in the charge, start to ignite at
the most favourable lambda location. The flame-front proceeds from
there.
With higher inert dilution, like from water or EGR, the ignition delay
increases.
Yes, WI can cool the intake charge. In a highly modified engine, like a
tractor puller, where emissions and fuel consumption do not matter, it
can be effective. But they don't just spray water in and go. The
injection timing is adjusted to the amount of water injection. Diesel
injection timing has a large influence on output power. Just like
ignition timing in a gas engine.
Read the SAE papers on WI or diesel/water emulsion injection in diesels.
There has been a lot of research done on that. For an otherwise
unmodified small diesel engine it would be more effective to just
increase the size and effectiveness of the intercooler than use WI as
intercooler replacement IMHO. One of the reasons tractor pullers use WI
as intercooler replacement also is that they are running basically as
stationary engines. It's very hard to get effective intercooler
operation if you don't have much airflow over it. That's different in a
car.

- Klaus


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of bearbvd at mindspring.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 4:47 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection



Original Message:
-----------------
From: Klaus Allmendinger klaus at Innovate-tech.com
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:02:35 -0700
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection


Why?

Water injection on a gasoline engine is mainly there for knock
supression. A diesel operates on "knock". It lives by compression
ignition, which in a spark ignited engine is the reason for knock. The
only reason I can think of for using port WI on a diesel is for slight
NOx reduction. In a diesel with port WI this results in an increase in
CO and HC emissions and a slight increase in fuel consumption from all
the research papers I read.


BZZZZZZZTTT !!!

First of all, a diesel does NOT operate on 'KNOCK' !!! Detonation will
destroy a diesel absolutely as fast as it will destroy a spark ignition
(Otto cycle) engine.

The burn in a diesel happens as fast as the fuel is EVAPORATED (after
atomization). This is NOT an 'explosive' process, as knock is. This is
PRECISELY why a diesel will destroy itself if fed a fuel which is harder
to
ignite (to low a cetane rating) , such as gasoline !!!

WI in the ports of a diesel isn't worth much, but it CAN be EVERY bit as
effective as an intercooler if injected immediately post compressor !!

WI , done properly, as an 'internal coolant' IS an effective knock
suppressant, but it does a LOT more than that. GO READ THE ARCHIVES
!!!!!

Greg

- Klaus


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of ian
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 2:42 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection

Hi guys.

Im considering adding water injection to my little 1.0 turbo diesel
charade.

has anyone done something similar and has advice?

Im intending to use a washer pump and agricultural (metal) spray nozzle,
with a PWM controller that increases the pump duty cycle based on boost
pressure in the plenum. I was intending to spray directly into the
plenum, so as not to have water interfering with the turbo.

thoughts ?

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Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
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From niche at iinet.net.au  Thu Sep  6 14:34:27 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 03:34:27 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <798114.6041.qm@web80513.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <798114.6041.qm@web80513.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070907033353.02749bd0@iinet.net.au>>

At 10:37 PM 9/6/07, you wrote:
>/joe/java/ or /joe/coffee/ 

sorry still dont get it, is it a linux thing perhaps ?



From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Thu Sep  6 14:41:31 2007
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:41:31 EDT
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
	alternat...
Message-ID: <d19.1106186b.3411b1eb@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/6/2007 12:36:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
niche at iinet.net.au writes:

At 10:37  PM 9/6/07, you wrote:
>/joe/java/ or /joe/coffee/ 

sorry still  dont get it, is it a linux thing perhaps ?



In the USA, Joe or Java are slang for coffee.
 
Scotty from Hollyweird



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


From niche at iinet.net.au  Thu Sep  6 15:03:52 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 04:03:52 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternat...
In-Reply-To: <d19.1106186b.3411b1eb@aol.com>
References: <d19.1106186b.3411b1eb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070907040100.027b8a10@iinet.net.au>>

At 03:41 AM 9/7/07, you wrote:
>At 10:37  PM 9/6/07, you wrote:
>>/joe/java/ or /joe/coffee/ 
>sorry still  dont get it, is it a linux thing perhaps ?
>
>In the USA, Joe or Java are slang for coffee.
> 
>Scotty from Hollyweird

Ah ha, but thats weird, all these years Ive been on the net and I didnt
know that or lost it in the ram, heck I even watch y'all holly movies
late at night when compiling these posts, i must be a galah needing
Alzheimer meds, thanks


From rfrey at iupui.edu  Thu Sep  6 15:53:01 2007
From: rfrey at iupui.edu (Frey, Richard K)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:53:01 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurementgauge,
	alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070907033353.02749bd0@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <0C323EFBDBDBDD4697BD0C0F2D745C52F654E0@iu-mssg-mbx101.ads.iu.edu>

Not my cup of joe or my cup of coffee.

It means that I might have another preference than another person.

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 3:34 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure
Measurementgauge, alternatives ?

At 10:37 PM 9/6/07, you wrote:
>/joe/java/ or /joe/coffee/ 

sorry still dont get it, is it a linux thing perhaps ?

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From bill.washington at nec.com.au  Thu Sep  6 18:26:18 2007
From: bill.washington at nec.com.au (Bill Washington)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:26:18 +1000
Subject: [Diy_efi] Water injection
In-Reply-To: <20070906094914.146777FC6A@ns1.nec.com.au>
References: <20070906094914.146777FC6A@ns1.nec.com.au>
Message-ID: <46E08C9A.5000409@nec.com.au>

Gents,
    One idea I have had for a while, but never figured out a way to 
implement is o try using an ultrasonic 'fogger' to produce a fog of tiny 
droplets which can then be fed into the intake manifold .... any thoughts?

Mike,
    For a pressure gauge you could try looking at the following 
<http://search.globalspec.com/productfinder/findproducts?query=pressure%20gauges> 
A heap of suppliers of a wide range of products are available through 
globalspec.com.

Regards
Bill


From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Sep  6 18:33:38 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:33:38 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB297225D@ITFC1.innovate.com>
References: <380-2200793523465338@M2W014.mail2web.com>
	<2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB297225D@ITFC1.innovate.com>
Message-ID: <1189121618.2603.36.camel@wirenth>

On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 07:57 -0700, Klaus Allmendinger wrote:
> For an otherwise
> unmodified small diesel engine it would be more effective to just
> increase the size and effectiveness of the intercooler than use WI as
> intercooler replacement IMHO. 

well I guess that could work, as the size of the intercooler is
(presently) zero...

I have an intercooler core, but its rather tatty and I'd prefer to get a
nicer one. mounting it could be... fun, too :) (little space, awkward
pipework). the pipes would need to be kept quite short as its a small
engine and a _miniscule_ turbo. The lag would be unbelieveable on long
tubes, due to the volume, I imagine :-)

Will let you all know how I get on :)



From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Sep  6 18:43:13 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:43:13 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <31534.49200.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <31534.49200.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1189122193.2603.40.camel@wirenth>

On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 06:32 -0700, Rick McLeod wrote:
> Why not come up w/ an electronic system, one that summarizes the
>  difference of two sensors, one in the manifold and one in the fuel
>  log. This would then allow smoothing to be applied elecrically. For
>  that matter, you could also use a 'expanded' technique to monitor more
>  critially w/ an electronic system.

um. are you assuming I have electronically controlled diesel injection?

My engine has no timing adjustment (at all!) and mechanical injection.
its locked to inject at TDC.

thus no ECU and no fuel tables



From dunvegan at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep  6 20:38:47 2007
From: dunvegan at sbcglobal.net (Rick McLeod)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:38:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
	alternatives ?
Message-ID: <316447.5967.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Nope. I wasn't assuming that, just suggesting to monitor w/ an electronic vs. mechanical/electrical apperatus.

This comes from my preference to never touch another carby again, now that I've discovered the world of FI

I used to teach industrial controls, worked in the industry, and anytime I could substitute electronic for mechanical w/ a degreee of reliability (I know some environments don't favor that) I do

A couple presure transducers, handful of resistors and caps, couple 741's (I'm showing my age here) and a LCD bargraph (analog input) and good to go, 


----- Original Message ----
From: ian <spyro at f2s.com>
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2007 6:43:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge, alternatives ?


On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 06:32 -0700, Rick McLeod wrote:
> Why not come up w/ an electronic system, one that summarizes the
>  difference of two sensors, one in the manifold and one in the fuel
>  log. This would then allow smoothing to be applied elecrically. For
>  that matter, you could also use a 'expanded' technique to monitor more
>  critially w/ an electronic system.

um. are you assuming I have electronically controlled diesel injection?

My engine has no timing adjustment (at all!) and mechanical injection.
its locked to inject at TDC.

thus no ECU and no fuel tables

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
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From spyro at f2s.com  Thu Sep  6 21:08:37 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 03:08:37 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <316447.5967.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <316447.5967.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1189130917.2603.59.camel@wirenth>

On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 18:38 -0700, Rick McLeod wrote:
> Nope. I wasn't assuming that, just suggesting to monitor w/ an
>  electronic vs. mechanical/electrical apperatus.

oh yeah. was intending to use electronics for control - after all - if
Im going to PWM an pump or a solenoid it makes no sense to use a
machanical method :)

> A couple presure transducers, handful of resistors and caps, couple
>  741's (I'm showing my age here) and a LCD bargraph (analog input) and
>  good to go, 

It occurs to me that I could take some load off the pump I use by using
a sealable water reservoir and fitting a (small!) pipe from the plenum
to the reservoir to presurise it (need a sturdy reservoir though).
probably a good idea to put a nonreturn valve in there too or I might
find the thing getting sucked upon / collapsing during negative boost
conditions...

Hmm.

Ok, Im going to need...

1) reservoir
2) pump
3) hose
4) nozzle (metal, withotu parts that can fall into the plenum)
5) solenoid capable of PWM
6) pressure hose so that I can finally fit my dashboard boost guage
(need to measure stuff before and after!)
7) pressure sensor to measure plenum pressure
8) small PWM circuit to drive solenoid
9) pressure regulator valve to control 'rail' pressure of the water

optional:

10) peltier cooler to chill water entering the rail (remember, it
recirculates so the water in the reservoir will chill more and more over
time)
11) plenum temp sensor (air temp sensor)


Most of thats simpe to sort.

anyone who can recommend a nice quick responding temperature sensor to
measure plenum air temp, it'd be appreciated.

actually, I might go for an electronic boost guage and ditch my
pneumatic one - its easier to hook up to a data logger.

also recommendations for a nice adjustable pressure return valve
suitable for water use it'd be appreciated...




From buckwill33 at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  6 22:09:33 2007
From: buckwill33 at hotmail.com (Buck Williams)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:09:33 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <1189130917.2603.59.camel@wirenth>
References: <316447.5967.qm@web80508.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1189130917.2603.59.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W17BC080FF7AC4251A5F0B2CEC50@phx.gbl>

if u do ;thisss the pumpp will then have to pump againtst turbo pressure plus normal atmost pressure,, if u put pump and reservaoir into hard coantainmeant ten pump will  be back to normal,,,,, u must open to add water anaway,,,its an old trubo re corvair traick, for water allcoanol booste, usee windshsiel washer pump in hard box and pressurize boxx, buck

> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge, alternatives ?> From: spyro at f2s.com> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 03:08:37 +0100> > On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 18:38 -0700, Rick McLeod wrote:> > Nope. I wasn't assuming that, just suggesting to monitor w/ an> > electronic vs. mechanical/electrical apperatus.> > oh yeah. was intending to use electronics for control - after all - if> Im going to PWM an pump or a solenoid it makes no sense to use a> machanical method :)> > > A couple presure transducers, handful of resistors and caps, couple> > 741's (I'm showing my age here) and a LCD bargraph (analog input) and> > good to go, > > It occurs to me that I could take some load off the pump I use by using> a sealable water reservoir and fitting a (small!) pipe from the plenum> to the reservoir to presurise it (need a sturdy reservoir though).> probably a good idea to put a nonreturn valve in there too or I might> find the thing getting sucked upon / collapsing during negative boost> conditions...> > Hmm.> > Ok, Im going to need...> > 1) reservoir> 2) pump> 3) hose> 4) nozzle (metal, withotu parts that can fall into the plenum)> 5) solenoid capable of PWM> 6) pressure hose so that I can finally fit my dashboard boost guage> (need to measure stuff before and after!)> 7) pressure sensor to measure plenum pressure> 8) small PWM circuit to drive solenoid> 9) pressure regulator valve to control 'rail' pressure of the water> > optional:> > 10) peltier cooler to chill water entering the rail (remember, it> recirculates so the water in the reservoir will chill more and more over> time)> 11) plenum temp sensor (air temp sensor)> > > Most of thats simpe to sort.> > anyone who can recommend a nice quick responding temperature sensor to> measure plenum air temp, it'd be appreciated.> > actually, I might go for an electronic boost guage and ditch my> pneumatic one - its easier to hook up to a data logger.> > also recommendations for a nice adjustable pressure return valve> suitable for water use it'd be appreciated...> > > _______________________________________________> Diy_efi mailing list> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 23:35:27 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:35:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <1189085904.2603.21.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <608234.36436.qm@web50311.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Check out Bruce Crower's (of Crower Cams) six cycle
engine.

Now that's water injection! ;)


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz 


From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  6 23:38:41 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 21:38:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
	alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070906213803.027b31d0@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <287885.45725.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:

> ps: Not sure what "cup of joe" means, we is from
> Australia and have our own peculiar dialect since
> we are flat out like a lizard drinking while looking
> out for a galah...

Cup of coffee. WTH is galah? ;)


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/


From krawczuk65 at dodo.com.au  Fri Sep  7 00:08:24 2007
From: krawczuk65 at dodo.com.au (mark krawczuk)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:38:24 +0930
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
	alternatives ?
References: <287885.45725.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000501c7f10d$466c25b0$0a93a33a@markzu35x5eu9m>

galah is a sorta a kinda looking parrot ? try google pictures ,!!!
mark k


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregg Eshelman" <g_alan_e at yahoo.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement 
gauge,alternatives ?


> --- Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>> ps: Not sure what "cup of joe" means, we is from
>> Australia and have our own peculiar dialect since
>> we are flat out like a lizard drinking while looking
>> out for a galah...
>
> Cup of coffee. WTH is galah? ;)
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car 
> Finder tool.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.6/991 - Release Date: 5/09/2007 
> 2:55 PM
>
> 



From niche at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  7 00:54:46 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:54:46 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <287885.45725.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070906213803.027b31d0@iinet.net.au>
	<287885.45725.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070907134927.027b9dd0@iinet.net.au>>

At 12:38 PM 9/7/07, you wrote:
>> Australia and have our own peculiar dialect since
>> we are flat out like a lizard drinking while looking
>> out for a galah...
>
>Cup of coffee. WTH is galah? ;)

Ping and Grey Parrot like birds, some very smart and can be quite destructive,
Their name is much like the sound they produce, ie Gah-Laaaaah, Gah-Laaah high pitched
etc With a few variations.
In the country they can swarm near lakes and water holes and act like a mob, there are
a few reports of them taking out their aggression on a wooden home and within a few
hours demolishing it, think there were a couple of Australian movies that might even
show that. Some people keep them as pets, they live to 30+ years, need to be treated
gently when young or they will learn how to take the end of your finger off with their
powerful beaks !

Somehow indicative of Australian life I guess ;-)

mike




>       
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
>http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  7 02:19:56 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 00:19:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
	alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <1189130917.2603.59.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- ian <spyro at f2s.com> wrote:
<clip>
> optional:
> 
> 10) peltier cooler to chill water entering the rail
> (remember, it
> recirculates so the water in the reservoir will
> chill more and more over
> time)

You'll definately want an airflow source for the hot
side of the peltier that comes from outside the engine
compartment and exhausts to outside it too.

You'll also want a LARGE cooler block with a very long
or otherwise high area path for the water to flow
through so it can shed as much heat as possible.

They're not terribly efficient and a lot of the input
energy goes to waste as heat out the hot side. They're
much better heaters than they are coolers.

-- 
www.fandemonium.org
August (Fri) 1st, (Sat) 2nd & (Sun) 3rd, 2008


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
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From spyro at f2s.com  Fri Sep  7 03:12:58 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:12:58 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070907134927.027b9dd0@iinet.net.au>>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070906213803.027b31d0@iinet.net.au>
	<287885.45725.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070907134927.027b9dd0@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <1189152778.2581.1.camel@wirenth>

On Fri, 2007-09-07 at 13:54 +0800, Mike wrote:
> Ping and Grey Parrot like birds, some very smart and can be quite
> destructive,
> Their name is much like the sound they produce, ie Gah-Laaaaah,
> Gah-Laaah high pitched etc With a few variations.

Ok with a reason for the name being like that they HAVE to be
australian...

> Somehow indicative of Australian life I guess ;-) 

...Yup :)



From spyro at f2s.com  Fri Sep  7 04:28:09 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:28:09 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1189157294.2581.6.camel@wirenth>

On Fri, 2007-09-07 at 00:19 -0700, Gregg Eshelman wrote:

> You'll definately want an airflow source for the hot
> side of the peltier that comes from outside the engine
> compartment and exhausts to outside it too.

Indeed.

> You'll also want a LARGE cooler block with a very long
> or otherwise high area path for the water to flow
> through so it can shed as much heat as possible.

I was going to bolt something like a PC watercooling block to it to give
a nice high area passage for the water.

I also discovered that the solenoid will probably get rather warm. Im
going to have to make sure this doesnt heat the water! spec says
solenoid at 100% duty will hit 90 degrees! I dont think this will carry
to the water too much though looking at the design. We shall see.



From spyro at f2s.com  Fri Sep  7 10:44:54 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:44:54 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <1189157294.2581.6.camel@wirenth>
References: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1189157294.2581.6.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>


Anyone here know of a CHEAP and _LINUX COMPATIBLE_ USB datalogger with
at least 2 channels of A-D ?

8 bit is fine, samplerate not important, anything in the kHz range is
overkill. robust inputs would be nice.

looking for off the shelf, dont have time to build my own.



From niche at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  7 11:04:44 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 00:04:44 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
References: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1189157294.2581.6.camel@wirenth>
	<1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070908000226.027b7220@iinet.net.au>>

try www.silabs.com

although they make a USB based CPU development stick, I'm sure it has
A/D inputs and comes with driver, I understand its also in source for linux,
though I am not (yet) a linux man,

ie. its cheap, has drivers and even if oyu dont use it for development you can
access a/d inputs, 

For something a bit more expensive, RS components in Aust have one as do
many other black box type module suppliers, is there a "Black Box"
electronic supplier in USA ?

cheers

mike



At 11:44 PM 9/7/07, you wrote:

>Anyone here know of a CHEAP and _LINUX COMPATIBLE_ USB datalogger with
>at least 2 channels of A-D ?
>
>8 bit is fine, samplerate not important, anything in the kHz range is
>overkill. robust inputs would be nice.
>
>looking for off the shelf, dont have time to build my own.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From spyro at f2s.com  Fri Sep  7 11:13:49 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:13:49 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070908000226.027b7220@iinet.net.au>>
References: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1189157294.2581.6.camel@wirenth> <1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070908000226.027b7220@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <1189181629.7737.0.camel@wirenth>

On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 00:04 +0800, Mike wrote:

> is there a "Black Box"
> electronic supplier in USA ?

I live in the UK :)

(cmon, how many 1.0 diesels could there be in the US? my entire engine
probably fits inside the cylinders of a typical US small car...)



From niche at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep  7 11:26:38 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 00:26:38 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <1189181629.7737.0.camel@wirenth>
References: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1189157294.2581.6.camel@wirenth>
	<1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070908000226.027b7220@iinet.net.au>
	<1189181629.7737.0.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070908002216.027ba850@iinet.net.au>>

Well i'm in Oz,

Lots of fish and chip shops in UK, you running off refined waste chip oil yet ?

One guy in perth does it here in Western Australia, costs him 17c/litre nett !

RS components head office are in UK, many outlets I expect and farnell as well
I think, saw a USB logger in a catalog last year,

Yes the engine would prob fit in the engine bay of a cadillac circa 1970, pre oil hike
make a good supply for an aircon pump ;-)

I used to live in Southend/Essex, carwardines coffee shop was good back in 1984, that was then...

<shrug>

this is now,

<sigh>

mike


At 12:13 AM 9/8/07, you wrote:
>On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 00:04 +0800, Mike wrote:
>
>> is there a "Black Box"
>> electronic supplier in USA ?
>
>I live in the UK :)
>
>(cmon, how many 1.0 diesels could there be in the US? my entire engine
>probably fits inside the cylinders of a typical US small car...)
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



Regards from


Mike Massen
Network Power Systems
Lab 08 9444 8961
Mb 0438 048961
Perth, Western Australia
* VL/VK & VN/VP/VR GMH Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
* RB30 Skyline/Nissan/VL Milspec ignition drivers with diagnostic features now in economy trials
* Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
* Industrial grade PolyVinyliDeneChloride (PVDC Copolymer) in bulk, the best
  oxygen and water protective barrier you can find for circuit boards.
* Special equipment on offer, 60KVA UPS with large battery cabinet - AUD$12K
Web site under construction   http://niche.iinet.net.au


From cwrxr at earthlink.net  Fri Sep  7 15:07:36 2007
From: cwrxr at earthlink.net (Curtis Richards)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:07:36 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Usb and RS-485 data loggers
In-Reply-To: <1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
References: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>	<1189157294.2581.6.camel@wirenth>
	<1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <46E1AF88.30407@earthlink.net>

ian wrote:
> Anyone here know of a CHEAP and _LINUX COMPATIBLE_ USB datalogger with
> at least 2 channels of A-D ?
>
> 8 bit is fine, samplerate not important, anything in the kHz range is
> overkill. robust inputs would be nice.
>
> looking for off the shelf, dont have time to build my own.
>
>
>   
Hi Ian,

Try B&B Electronics

http://bb-elec.com/?gclid=CLK_jKqQso4CFQ15UAod53PsNQ

They have all sorts of 'blackbox' data  acquisition products.  I used 
their rs-485 stuff to connect 4 O2 sensors, 4 EGT probes 12 pressure 
sensors and a crank angle sensor to a Palm TX when I was debugging my 
Megasquirt setup on a 1946 CJ2a with a supercharged L134 flathead.  
Their stuff just works!  My initial  runs were with Quartus Forth  on 
the Palm TX, but I moved up to a VIA mini ITX running Gforth under 
Slackware when I needed more bandwidth.  I like their serial DA stuff 
since it's easy to write the code, but I'm sure their USB solutions 
would work just as well.

-- 
Curtis W Richards

--
"Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written
Constitution.  Let us not make it a blank paper by construction."

-- Thomas Jefferson (letter to Wilson Nicholas, 1803)



From byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Sep  7 15:24:52 2007
From: byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net (Jim)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:24:52 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
Message-ID: <000001c7f18d$25e62130$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>

Hello, I haven' posted anything on this site since Jan 07.  I see some
fantastic knowledge of EFI systems in the folks posting on this site and
wonder if I can beg for some free advice on several points
 
I transplanted the EEC-IV system, including the distributorless
ignition, from a '92 Ford 1.9 onto my '71 MGB 1.8.  I had to make
several parts, including an intake manifold from scratch, and adapt the
wire harness, etc.  It is quite drivable, except for hesitation when you
hit the throttle, even though I have not touched the program in the ECU.
The fact that the ECU program works as well as it does shows how
adaptable the MAF system is, as discussed in other comments on this
site.  I can see that it is going lean during acceleration by watching
the voltage out of the O2 sensor.  I also manually injected a little
extra gas during acceleration and was able to make the hesitation go
away.
 
I am not pursuing any great improvement in power, just trying to get the
instant starting, warmup and drive-away performance we all take for
granted in EFI cars.  I like the look and sound of an old British
roadster, and am happy with keeping nostalgic things like solid lifters
that always tick a little, but can do without the issues that come with
35 year old dual carbs, a manual choke, and the Lucas points ignition
system. 
This engine has two pairs of siamesed intakes.  Since my EEC is from a
sequential injection engine, I put all 4 injectors together in the
center of the manifold so it is working more like a throttle body
injection system.   
 
Now, my questions.  
 
1.	I assume I need to change some parameters in the EEC to tune
this setup properly - my displacement is different by 5%, my manifold
volume is much smaller, my injectors are wetting the manifold instead of
the intake valves, etc.  I see Tweecers and other gadgets advertised on
the web, but it is not too clear what they can do.  Is the Advantage 3.x
that was discussed here a couple of weeks ago the best (cheapest?) way
to see what this EEC is doing and change the settings? 
2.	There was a discussion of the EEC-V and it is obviously newer
and more capable.  Might it be worth my time (and $) to convert my
system to an EEC-V system off a '96 or later Ford 1.9, and do my tuning
on that? 
3.	I have all the sensors including the Vehicle Speed Sensor
connected to the harness, so my check-engine light goes off, but I do
not have the VSS connected to the speedo cable.  If I understand
correctly (mainly from the Probst book on Ford EFI), VSS is used for
economy and emissions purposes, like cutting off fuel during
deceleration.  Is there any reason I should build an adapter so it can
see actual vehicle speed? 
Thanks in advance for any help.
 
Jim in Ohio
 


From diy_efi_2 at planetcampbell.us  Fri Sep  7 22:34:05 2007
From: diy_efi_2 at planetcampbell.us (Scott Campbell)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 21:34:05 -0600
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
	alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
References: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1189157294.2581.6.camel@wirenth>
	<1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <op.tybf5fuq1spa7n@localhost>

Something like this comes to mind: http://www.usbee.com/
It claims to have data logging capabilities. It may not meet your  
definition of cheap, but there are a lot of USB scopes out there if you  
search around.

Scott.

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:44:54 -0600, ian <spyro at f2s.com> wrote:

>
> Anyone here know of a CHEAP and _LINUX COMPATIBLE_ USB datalogger with
> at least 2 channels of A-D ?
>
> 8 bit is fine, samplerate not important, anything in the kHz range is
> overkill. robust inputs would be nice.
>
> looking for off the shelf, dont have time to build my own.
-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/


From clshore at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 12:11:20 2007
From: clshore at yahoo.com (Carter Shore)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 10:11:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
	alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <742303.33514.qm@web35713.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Ian,

I've used the DI-194RS, $25 USD, but it's RS-232
(could use an RS-232/USB adaptor?)

http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di194rs.htm

Or for $50 USD, there's a USB version DI-148RS.

http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di148.htm

Not sure if the software it ships with is LINUX
compatible, but it's quite nice, like a storage 
O-scope.

Carter Shore


--- ian <spyro at f2s.com> wrote:

> 
> Anyone here know of a CHEAP and _LINUX COMPATIBLE_
> USB datalogger with
> at least 2 channels of A-D ?
> 
> 8 bit is fine, samplerate not important, anything in
> the kHz range is
> overkill. robust inputs would be nice.
> 
> looking for off the shelf, dont have time to build
> my own.
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting 


From jayrabe at gmail.com  Sat Sep  8 15:59:48 2007
From: jayrabe at gmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:59:48 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
Message-ID: <b52bf8c50709081359l60b3ed4fhc14005d5acdcbdc2@mail.gmail.com>

I've been looking at usb oscilloscopes & usb pulse generators recently.
There are lots of them and their prices vary a lot along with their
options.  I was wondering if anyone on here had any first hand experiences
or recommendations with any of these. Im looking to get both of them for my
shop mainly for standalone installs/troubleshooting.
  One issue im running into is they can only handle 5 or 10 volts.  I could
use a x10 probe, but would rather not have to.
The pulse generator would have to be able to output 2 channels (crank pulse
and sync pulse) and must be able to do create missing tooth signals.
  I've been looking at www.usbee.com devices.  Problem is it only has 1
analog channel (it has 2 but you can only view 1 at a time...)  It can
output just about any digital signal you can draw up but in square wave and
under 5 v.  Its sorta along the lines of what im looking for but isnt
perfect.

thoughts? recommendations?


From spyro at f2s.com  Sat Sep  8 17:17:50 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 23:17:50 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
In-Reply-To: <b52bf8c50709081359l60b3ed4fhc14005d5acdcbdc2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b52bf8c50709081359l60b3ed4fhc14005d5acdcbdc2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1189289870.12055.0.camel@wirenth>

On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 16:59 -0400, Jay Rabe wrote:
> I've been looking at www.usbee.com devices.  Problem is it only has 1
> analog channel (it has 2 but you can only view 1 at a time...)  It can
> output just about any digital signal you can draw up but in square
> wave and
> under 5 v.  Its sorta along the lines of what im looking for but isnt
> perfect.
> 

if its usb... use more than one ?



From spyro at f2s.com  Sat Sep  8 17:18:37 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 23:18:37 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070908002216.027ba850@iinet.net.au>>
References: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1189157294.2581.6.camel@wirenth> <1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070908000226.027b7220@iinet.net.au>
	<1189181629.7737.0.camel@wirenth>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070908002216.027ba850@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <1189289917.12055.2.camel@wirenth>

On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 00:26 +0800, Mike wrote:
> Well i'm in Oz,
> 
> Lots of fish and chip shops in UK, you running off refined waste chip oil yet ?

No, but the way prices are going I may have to!

one of these days I'll set up a processing rig in the shed...



From spyro at f2s.com  Sat Sep  8 17:20:06 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 23:20:06 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <1189181629.7737.0.camel@wirenth>
References: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1189157294.2581.6.camel@wirenth> <1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070908000226.027b7220@iinet.net.au> >
	<1189181629.7737.0.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <1189290006.12055.4.camel@wirenth>


Solenoid arrived in the post... need to go find some pipe and fittings,
and a pump. gonna get a selection of washer pumps from el-scrapyardo.



From spyro at f2s.com  Sat Sep  8 17:23:49 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 23:23:49 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <op.tybf5fuq1spa7n@localhost>
References: <346336.33932.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1189157294.2581.6.camel@wirenth> <1189179894.2581.11.camel@wirenth>
	<op.tybf5fuq1spa7n@localhost>
Message-ID: <1189290229.12055.7.camel@wirenth>

On Fri, 2007-09-07 at 21:34 -0600, Scott Campbell wrote:
> Something like this comes to mind: http://www.usbee.com/
> It claims to have data logging capabilities. It may not meet your  
> definition of cheap, but there are a lot of USB scopes out there if you  
> search around.

cute, but WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY beyond my definition of cheap. the 2 channel
input one is 1400 dollars!!!

I was thinking of 'less than $50' ;-)



From spyro at f2s.com  Sat Sep  8 18:54:06 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 00:54:06 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] scope
Message-ID: <1189295646.12055.13.camel@wirenth>

Hey guys, check this one out - I like this enough to lay out actual cash
for it.

http://www.tigal.com/prodotti_scheda.asp?pid=1132

by far the best bangs / buck I have seen

135 euros (about the same in dollars) gets you

2 channels up to 200kHz
+- 20V
10 bit ADC

also

1kHz-8MHz logic analyser

5 PWM/digital output channels

8 channel pattern generator

I dont CARE if this has linux drivers. I'll write 'em if I have to :-)



From mediasmith at cox.net  Sat Sep  8 19:10:55 2007
From: mediasmith at cox.net (wdsmith)
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 19:10:55 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] scope
In-Reply-To: <1189295646.12055.13.camel@wirenth>
References: <1189295646.12055.13.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <46E33A0F.6080707@cox.net>

135 euro sounds much more soothing and pleasant than $1500.
I almost had to reach for the nitro pills when I looked at that one.
wdsmith


ian wrote:
> Hey guys, check this one out - I like this enough to lay out actual cash
> for it.
>
> http://www.tigal.com/prodotti_scheda.asp?pid=1132
>
> by far the best bangs / buck I have seen
>
> 135 euros (about the same in dollars) gets you
>
> 2 channels up to 200kHz
> +- 20V
> 10 bit ADC
>
> also
>
> 1kHz-8MHz logic analyser
>
> 5 PWM/digital output channels
>
> 8 channel pattern generator
>
> I dont CARE if this has linux drivers. I'll write 'em if I have to :-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>
>   



From clshore at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 21:23:53 2007
From: clshore at yahoo.com (Carter Shore)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 19:23:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] scope
In-Reply-To: <1189295646.12055.13.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <424918.75844.qm@web35705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Very nice Ian!

I'd like to use the Spectrum Analyzer function for
some knock detection experiments.

Thanks,

Carter

--- ian <spyro at f2s.com> wrote:

> Hey guys, check this one out - I like this enough to
> lay out actual cash
> for it.
> 
> http://www.tigal.com/prodotti_scheda.asp?pid=1132
> 
> by far the best bangs / buck I have seen
> 
> 135 euros (about the same in dollars) gets you
> 
> 2 channels up to 200kHz
> +- 20V
> 10 bit ADC
> 
> also
> 
> 1kHz-8MHz logic analyser
> 
> 5 PWM/digital output channels
> 
> 8 channel pattern generator
> 
> I dont CARE if this has linux drivers. I'll write
> 'em if I have to :-)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe:
> http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/


From Anagnostou at cox.net  Sat Sep  8 23:24:13 2007
From: Anagnostou at cox.net (Anagnostou at cox.net)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 00:24:13 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] scope
In-Reply-To: <1189295646.12055.13.camel@wirenth>
References: <1189295646.12055.13.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <46E3756D.4010106@cox.net>

does it come with instructions in english?  I don't spreken very well.

RA

ian wrote:
> Hey guys, check this one out - I like this enough to lay out actual cash
> for it.
>
> http://www.tigal.com/prodotti_scheda.asp?pid=1132
>
> by far the best bangs / buck I have seen
>
> 135 euros (about the same in dollars) gets you
>
> 2 channels up to 200kHz
> +- 20V
> 10 bit ADC
>
> also
>
> 1kHz-8MHz logic analyser
>
> 5 PWM/digital output channels
>
> 8 channel pattern generator
>
> I dont CARE if this has linux drivers. I'll write 'em if I have to :-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>   


From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  8 23:55:44 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 21:55:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement gauge,
	alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <1189290229.12055.7.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <97688.95420.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- ian <spyro at f2s.com> wrote:
<clip>
> cute, but WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY beyond my definition of
> cheap. the 2 channel
> input one is 1400 dollars!!!
> 
> I was thinking of 'less than $50' ;-)

A Digital Sampling Oscilloscope for a Nintendo
Gameboy.

http://www.semis.demon.co.uk/Gameboy/DsoDemo/DsoDemo.htm

Use your favorite web search and look for gameboy
oscilloscope to find other versions.


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 



From spyro at f2s.com  Sun Sep  9 05:11:28 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:11:28 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] [slightly ot] Differential Pressure Measurement
	gauge, alternatives ?
In-Reply-To: <97688.95420.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <97688.95420.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1189332688.12055.17.camel@wirenth>

On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 21:55 -0700, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> --- ian <spyro at f2s.com> wrote:
> <clip>
> > cute, but WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY beyond my definition of
> > cheap. the 2 channel
> > input one is 1400 dollars!!!
> > 
> > I was thinking of 'less than $50' ;-)
> 
> A Digital Sampling Oscilloscope for a Nintendo
> Gameboy.

thats actually rather seriously cute :)

havent got a GB though :)



From spyro at f2s.com  Sun Sep  9 05:12:00 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:12:00 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] scope
In-Reply-To: <46E3756D.4010106@cox.net>
References: <1189295646.12055.13.camel@wirenth>  <46E3756D.4010106@cox.net>
Message-ID: <1189332720.12055.19.camel@wirenth>

On Sun, 2007-09-09 at 00:24 -0400, Anagnostou at cox.net wrote:
> does it come with instructions in english?  I don't spreken very well.

no idea.

its only a 'scope though... how hard can it be?



From spyro at f2s.com  Sun Sep  9 05:12:21 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:12:21 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] scope
In-Reply-To: <424918.75844.qm@web35705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <424918.75844.qm@web35705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1189332741.12055.21.camel@wirenth>

On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 19:23 -0700, Carter Shore wrote:
> Very nice Ian!
> 
> I'd like to use the Spectrum Analyzer function for
> some knock detection experiments.

I'll let you all know what its like :-)



From spyro at f2s.com  Sun Sep  9 05:24:54 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:24:54 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Sensors
Message-ID: <1189333494.12055.28.camel@wirenth>

Hi guys.

Can anyone make some recommendations of good sensors?

I want:

1) a good temperature sensor, with a fairly quick response time, to
measure plenum air temperature. preferably to be able to measure
temperature change during boost events.

2) a good (and preferably solid state) pressure sensor, capable of use
on a turbo'd application. I'd guess 2 bar is the max boost needed

3) a guage that can read the sensor without distorting the signal it
produces, for dash mounting.

Ideally, it'd be good to know what kind of cars to look for in the
junkyard to rob these from. (bear in mind Im in the UK though)





From niche at iinet.net.au  Sun Sep  9 06:15:43 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 19:15:43 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>>

Hi chaps,

Nice to see some activity here re logging, a subject in itself, I have idea for small cheapie
logger and finally pinned down an enclosure/connector combo, but its not USB, just serial
but would work for the most part with the cheapie usb to serial adaptors...

Anyway, i digress...

I'm on http://www.calaisturbo.com.au  from time to time as "Niche" - funny that...!

And some people use "Noid" lights to test they have drive to the injectors, which is (as far
as I understand) just a LED light in a moulding which is pluggable inline with the loom
to the injector at the actual injector. So you can see it blink when cranking etc...

I'm interested to know if anyone has a "noid" like type tester or item which does any more
than just light up an LED when the driver wants to turn on the injector ?




Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From jayrabe at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 12:19:46 2007
From: jayrabe at gmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 13:19:46 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] scope
In-Reply-To: <1189332741.12055.21.camel@wirenth>
References: <424918.75844.qm@web35705.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1189332741.12055.21.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <b52bf8c50709091019p7071407alc0eef4825c7073cc@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for this Ian.
  For the non deutsch speaking guys you can switch it to english at the top
right corner of the site.  You can download the software for it and install
it.  It installed in english on my computer after downloading it from the
english site.
  This is made how the usbee should be made.  I cant imagine the signal can
be very good with usbee's "test leads."
  It seems VERY good for the price.  Im ordering one now.  Thanks for
finding this!

This is the only us distributor i could
find...http://www.circuit-ed.com/PoScope-Basic-USB-OscilloscopeLogic-Analyzer-P97C0.aspx


From jayrabe at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 13:04:54 2007
From: jayrabe at gmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:04:54 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Sensors
In-Reply-To: <1189333494.12055.28.camel@wirenth>
References: <1189333494.12055.28.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <b52bf8c50709091104r750a44a2q26c3b9f253e4f981@mail.gmail.com>

you could use this air temp sensor
http://www.partsquick.com/ProductDetail.asp?i=223207

and the specs for it
http://apps.bosch.com.au/motorsport/downloads/sensors_temperature.pdf

Id guess a GM pressure sensor would be the cheapest and fairly easy to get.

No idea on a gauge.


From jayrabe at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 13:35:42 2007
From: jayrabe at gmail.com (Jay Rabe)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:35:42 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com>

Im not exactly sure what you are looking for, but this little tester is very
cool.  Its a dual led test light.  Magnetic pickups can light the leds in
this.  Its a pretty helpful little test light.
http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=248

You could try searching "injector pulse width meter" Not too much comes up
but i think this is more what your lookin for. Besides these, i cant think
of anything besides an oscilloscope.

On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> Hi chaps,
>
> Nice to see some activity here re logging, a subject in itself, I have
> idea for small cheapie
> logger and finally pinned down an enclosure/connector combo, but its not
> USB, just serial
> but would work for the most part with the cheapie usb to serial
> adaptors...
>
> Anyway, i digress...
>
> I'm on http://www.calaisturbo.com.au  from time to time as "Niche" - funny
> that...!
>
> And some people use "Noid" lights to test they have drive to the
> injectors, which is (as far
> as I understand) just a LED light in a moulding which is pluggable inline
> with the loom
> to the injector at the actual injector. So you can see it blink when
> cranking etc...
>
> I'm interested to know if anyone has a "noid" like type tester or item
> which does any more
> than just light up an LED when the driver wants to turn on the injector ?
>
>
>
>
> Regards from
>
>
> Mike
> Perth, Western Australia
> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
> guaranteed  !
> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>


From niche at iinet.net.au  Sun Sep  9 14:44:53 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 03:44:53 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
In-Reply-To: <b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
	<b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au>>

Over here in Oz, a "Noid" light seems to be just a simple LED
which goes in parallel with the injector, its a tool to verify the ECU
is driving its injector output and that the signal is getting as far
as the injector, ie All the way through the loom.

You basically, unplug the injector connector and plug in the Noid
light intot he injector and the injector connector into the noid so
the noid is "inline" to the injector, when the injector is driven the
light is supposed to come on.

My question is, 

Is this just a basic light or are there any inline type testers like this that
are any more sophisticated ?

I'm not complicating this at present with any Duty cycle issues, just wishing
to find out if people are using anything more sophisticated than a simple
LED for their inline injector testing ?

Regards

Mike





At 02:35 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>Im not exactly sure what you are looking for, but this little tester is very
>cool.  Its a dual led test light.  Magnetic pickups can light the leds in
>this.  Its a pretty helpful little test light.
>http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=248
>
>You could try searching "injector pulse width meter" Not too much comes up
>but i think this is more what your lookin for. Besides these, i cant think
>of anything besides an oscilloscope.
>
>On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> Hi chaps,
>>
>> Nice to see some activity here re logging, a subject in itself, I have
>> idea for small cheapie
>> logger and finally pinned down an enclosure/connector combo, but its not
>> USB, just serial
>> but would work for the most part with the cheapie usb to serial
>> adaptors...
>>
>> Anyway, i digress...
>>
>> I'm on http://www.calaisturbo.com.au  from time to time as "Niche" - funny
>> that...!
>>
>> And some people use "Noid" lights to test they have drive to the
>> injectors, which is (as far
>> as I understand) just a LED light in a moulding which is pluggable inline
>> with the loom
>> to the injector at the actual injector. So you can see it blink when
>> cranking etc...
>>
>> I'm interested to know if anyone has a "noid" like type tester or item
>> which does any more
>> than just light up an LED when the driver wants to turn on the injector ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards from
>>
>>
>> Mike
>> Perth, Western Australia
>> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
>> guaranteed  !
>> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
>> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Sun Sep  9 16:49:48 2007
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 17:49:48 EDT
Subject: [Diy_efi] Check out On-Line Catalog - Electric Circuit - Fuel
	Injector - Noid Light 9 p
Message-ID: <cc7.1b526aef.3415c47c@aol.com>

_On-Line  Catalog - Electric Circuit - Fuel Injector - Noid Light 9 pc NM5559 
- NM5559_ 
(http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3009)  



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


From spyro at f2s.com  Sun Sep  9 19:43:10 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 01:43:10 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Sensors
In-Reply-To: <b52bf8c50709091104r750a44a2q26c3b9f253e4f981@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1189333494.12055.28.camel@wirenth>
	<b52bf8c50709091104r750a44a2q26c3b9f253e4f981@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1189384990.12055.33.camel@wirenth>

On Sun, 2007-09-09 at 14:04 -0400, Jay Rabe wrote:
> you could use this air temp sensor
> http://www.partsquick.com/ProductDetail.asp?i=223207

Thanks - although it appears to simply be a thermal diode or something
similar on a fancy housing... I can make that myself easily enough.

My concern with that type of sensor is the relative thinness of the legs
of the diode and what could happen to the engine if they corroded
through.

anyone know what they are like for robustness, or know of more robust
looking sensors?

> Id guess a GM pressure sensor would be the cheapest and fairly easy to get.

Are they solid state, and capable of working under boost? I know nothing
about GM motors, so I wouldnt know where to begin with their sensors...



From spyro at f2s.com  Sun Sep  9 20:16:39 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 02:16:39 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Sensors
In-Reply-To: <b52bf8c50709091104r750a44a2q26c3b9f253e4f981@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1189333494.12055.28.camel@wirenth>
	<b52bf8c50709091104r750a44a2q26c3b9f253e4f981@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1189386999.12055.41.camel@wirenth>

On Sun, 2007-09-09 at 14:04 -0400, Jay Rabe wrote:
> you could use this air temp sensor
> http://www.partsquick.com/ProductDetail.asp?i=223207

Aha. now I know what this type of sensor is called - an ACT.

I also found what looks like a 'caged' version, which gives me warm
fuzzies in the 'less likely to be sucked into the engine if it breaks'
department :)

Will pop down to the local parts place tomorrow to pick one up, along
with a MAP sensor and some t-pieces :-)



From liberty1 at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 21:36:29 2007
From: liberty1 at gmail.com (Bobby Yates Emory)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 22:36:29 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
	<b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <54b6188b0709091936h6030696eo483416f363d9ee2e@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,

I made one - I measured the resistance of the injector - then a small light
- I added resistors to make the resistance similar.  I wired it in in place
of the injector.  It seemed to work - it would light up about when I thought
it it should.

It seemed to work - but I never got the car running - so I'm not sure this
is a good idea.

Bobby

On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> Over here in Oz, a "Noid" light seems to be just a simple LED
> which goes in parallel with the injector, its a tool to verify the ECU
> is driving its injector output and that the signal is getting as far
> as the injector, ie All the way through the loom.
>
> You basically, unplug the injector connector and plug in the Noid
> light intot he injector and the injector connector into the noid so
> the noid is "inline" to the injector, when the injector is driven the
> light is supposed to come on.
>
> My question is,
>
> Is this just a basic light or are there any inline type testers like this
> that
> are any more sophisticated ?
>
> I'm not complicating this at present with any Duty cycle issues, just
> wishing
> to find out if people are using anything more sophisticated than a simple
> LED for their inline injector testing ?
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> At 02:35 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
> >Im not exactly sure what you are looking for, but this little tester is
> very
> >cool.  Its a dual led test light.  Magnetic pickups can light the leds in
> >this.  Its a pretty helpful little test light.
> >http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=248
> >
> >You could try searching "injector pulse width meter" Not too much comes
> up
> >but i think this is more what your lookin for. Besides these, i cant
> think
> >of anything besides an oscilloscope.
> >
> >On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi chaps,
> >>
> >> Nice to see some activity here re logging, a subject in itself, I have
> >> idea for small cheapie
> >> logger and finally pinned down an enclosure/connector combo, but its
> not
> >> USB, just serial
> >> but would work for the most part with the cheapie usb to serial
> >> adaptors...
> >>
> >> Anyway, i digress...
> >>
> >> I'm on http://www.calaisturbo.com.au  from time to time as "Niche" -
> funny
> >> that...!
> >>
> >> And some people use "Noid" lights to test they have drive to the
> >> injectors, which is (as far
> >> as I understand) just a LED light in a moulding which is pluggable
> inline
> >> with the loom
> >> to the injector at the actual injector. So you can see it blink when
> >> cranking etc...
> >>
> >> I'm interested to know if anyone has a "noid" like type tester or item
> >> which does any more
> >> than just light up an LED when the driver wants to turn on the injector
> ?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards from
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike
> >> Perth, Western Australia
> >> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
> >> guaranteed  !
> >> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
> >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>
>
> Regards from
>
>
> Mike
> Perth, Western Australia
> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
> guaranteed  !
> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>



-- 
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory


From niche at iinet.net.au  Sun Sep  9 22:46:08 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:46:08 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
In-Reply-To: <54b6188b0709091936h6030696eo483416f363d9ee2e@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
	<b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au>
	<54b6188b0709091936h6030696eo483416f363d9ee2e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070910113629.027b9170@iinet.net.au>>

Thanks for the comments guys,

It probably would help if I explained the reason I raised the subject.

These days modern electronics can be quite sophisticated, small and low cost,

It should therefore be possible to design a "smart" noid light which does the very least such as:-

a. Be "inline" with the drive to the injector to observe simultaneous operation.
b. Have it show polarity is the same on all injectors (assuming all 6 are wired correctly)
  in situations where people build up looms and/or wishing to avoid polarisation if that is an issue.
c. Have it indicate whether the injector has a shorted turn.

I dont need a Noid light for myself, though it might be a handy tool to leave in the box.

Its raised my interest how people swear by them on the forum I listed yet, to me, they
seem very simple dumb devices and for the price I would have expected a little more.

These days with LEDs using so little current (in comparison with the injector) it shouldnt
be necessary to worry about the injector resistance and just wire in a light in parallel in
some type of inline connector arrangement.

Of course the electronics can be cheap and low cost even for a little sophistication
but it seems the packaging and presentation can still be a pain and I guess this is a stumbling
block...

Thanks for the link to etoolcart but so far, that is the only one I have found even from the calaisturbo
site, there just dont seem to be any other people doing them on a commercial basis anywhere,

Thanks

Mike






At 10:36 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>Mike,
>
>I made one - I measured the resistance of the injector - then a small light
>- I added resistors to make the resistance similar.  I wired it in in place
>of the injector.  It seemed to work - it would light up about when I thought
>it it should.
>
>It seemed to work - but I never got the car running - so I'm not sure this
>is a good idea.
>
>Bobby
>
>On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> Over here in Oz, a "Noid" light seems to be just a simple LED
>> which goes in parallel with the injector, its a tool to verify the ECU
>> is driving its injector output and that the signal is getting as far
>> as the injector, ie All the way through the loom.
>>
>> You basically, unplug the injector connector and plug in the Noid
>> light intot he injector and the injector connector into the noid so
>> the noid is "inline" to the injector, when the injector is driven the
>> light is supposed to come on.
>>
>> My question is,
>>
>> Is this just a basic light or are there any inline type testers like this
>> that
>> are any more sophisticated ?
>>
>> I'm not complicating this at present with any Duty cycle issues, just
>> wishing
>> to find out if people are using anything more sophisticated than a simple
>> LED for their inline injector testing ?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 02:35 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>> >Im not exactly sure what you are looking for, but this little tester is
>> very
>> >cool.  Its a dual led test light.  Magnetic pickups can light the leds in
>> >this.  Its a pretty helpful little test light.
>> >http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=248
>> >
>> >You could try searching "injector pulse width meter" Not too much comes
>> up
>> >but i think this is more what your lookin for. Besides these, i cant
>> think
>> >of anything besides an oscilloscope.
>> >
>> >On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi chaps,
>> >>
>> >> Nice to see some activity here re logging, a subject in itself, I have
>> >> idea for small cheapie
>> >> logger and finally pinned down an enclosure/connector combo, but its
>> not
>> >> USB, just serial
>> >> but would work for the most part with the cheapie usb to serial
>> >> adaptors...
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, i digress...
>> >>
>> >> I'm on http://www.calaisturbo.com.au  from time to time as "Niche" -
>> funny
>> >> that...!
>> >>
>> >> And some people use "Noid" lights to test they have drive to the
>> >> injectors, which is (as far
>> >> as I understand) just a LED light in a moulding which is pluggable
>> inline
>> >> with the loom
>> >> to the injector at the actual injector. So you can see it blink when
>> >> cranking etc...
>> >>
>> >> I'm interested to know if anyone has a "noid" like type tester or item
>> >> which does any more
>> >> than just light up an LED when the driver wants to turn on the injector
>> ?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Regards from
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >> Perth, Western Australia
>> >> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
>> >> guaranteed  !
>> >> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
>> >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Diy_efi mailing list
>> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>> >>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards from
>>
>>
>> Mike
>> Perth, Western Australia
>> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
>> guaranteed  !
>> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
>> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Toward freedom,
>
>Bobby Yates Emory
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From liberty1 at gmail.com  Sun Sep  9 23:17:42 2007
From: liberty1 at gmail.com (Bobby Yates Emory)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 00:17:42 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070910113629.027b9170@iinet.net.au>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
	<b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au>
	<54b6188b0709091936h6030696eo483416f363d9ee2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910113629.027b9170@iinet.net.au>
Message-ID: <54b6188b0709092117l209c9452o971a314c12b314be@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,

(I am not an electronics expert - you may want check this with someone who
knows which end of the soldering iron to hold.)

It is probable that the injector drive circuit can source the extra current
to drive the LED while it is also driving the injector.  So using a LED in
parallel to the injector is probably OK.

I believe that you want to put a current limiting resistor in series with
the LED to avoid burning out the LED.

Bobby

On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the comments guys,
>
> It probably would help if I explained the reason I raised the subject.
>
> These days modern electronics can be quite sophisticated, small and low
> cost,
>
> It should therefore be possible to design a "smart" noid light which does
> the very least such as:-
>
> a. Be "inline" with the drive to the injector to observe simultaneous
> operation.
> b. Have it show polarity is the same on all injectors (assuming all 6 are
> wired correctly)
>   in situations where people build up looms and/or wishing to avoid
> polarisation if that is an issue.
> c. Have it indicate whether the injector has a shorted turn.
>
> I dont need a Noid light for myself, though it might be a handy tool to
> leave in the box.
>
> Its raised my interest how people swear by them on the forum I listed yet,
> to me, they
> seem very simple dumb devices and for the price I would have expected a
> little more.
>
> These days with LEDs using so little current (in comparison with the
> injector) it shouldnt
> be necessary to worry about the injector resistance and just wire in a
> light in parallel in
> some type of inline connector arrangement.
>
> Of course the electronics can be cheap and low cost even for a little
> sophistication
> but it seems the packaging and presentation can still be a pain and I
> guess this is a stumbling
> block...
>
> Thanks for the link to etoolcart but so far, that is the only one I have
> found even from the calaisturbo
> site, there just dont seem to be any other people doing them on a
> commercial basis anywhere,
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 10:36 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
> >Mike,
> >
> >I made one - I measured the resistance of the injector - then a small
> light
> >- I added resistors to make the resistance similar.  I wired it in in
> place
> >of the injector.  It seemed to work - it would light up about when I
> thought
> >it it should.
> >
> >It seemed to work - but I never got the car running - so I'm not sure
> this
> >is a good idea.
> >
> >Bobby
> >
> >On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> Over here in Oz, a "Noid" light seems to be just a simple LED
> >> which goes in parallel with the injector, its a tool to verify the ECU
> >> is driving its injector output and that the signal is getting as far
> >> as the injector, ie All the way through the loom.
> >>
> >> You basically, unplug the injector connector and plug in the Noid
> >> light intot he injector and the injector connector into the noid so
> >> the noid is "inline" to the injector, when the injector is driven the
> >> light is supposed to come on.
> >>
> >> My question is,
> >>
> >> Is this just a basic light or are there any inline type testers like
> this
> >> that
> >> are any more sophisticated ?
> >>
> >> I'm not complicating this at present with any Duty cycle issues, just
> >> wishing
> >> to find out if people are using anything more sophisticated than a
> simple
> >> LED for their inline injector testing ?
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> At 02:35 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
> >> >Im not exactly sure what you are looking for, but this little tester
> is
> >> very
> >> >cool.  Its a dual led test light.  Magnetic pickups can light the leds
> in
> >> >this.  Its a pretty helpful little test light.
> >> >http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=248
> >> >
> >> >You could try searching "injector pulse width meter" Not too much
> comes
> >> up
> >> >but i think this is more what your lookin for. Besides these, i cant
> >> think
> >> >of anything besides an oscilloscope.
> >> >
> >> >On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi chaps,
> >> >>
> >> >> Nice to see some activity here re logging, a subject in itself, I
> have
> >> >> idea for small cheapie
> >> >> logger and finally pinned down an enclosure/connector combo, but its
> >> not
> >> >> USB, just serial
> >> >> but would work for the most part with the cheapie usb to serial
> >> >> adaptors...
> >> >>
> >> >> Anyway, i digress...
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm on http://www.calaisturbo.com.au  from time to time as "Niche" -
> >> funny
> >> >> that...!
> >> >>
> >> >> And some people use "Noid" lights to test they have drive to the
> >> >> injectors, which is (as far
> >> >> as I understand) just a LED light in a moulding which is pluggable
> >> inline
> >> >> with the loom
> >> >> to the injector at the actual injector. So you can see it blink when
> >> >> cranking etc...
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm interested to know if anyone has a "noid" like type tester or
> item
> >> >> which does any more
> >> >> than just light up an LED when the driver wants to turn on the
> injector
> >> ?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards from
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Mike
> >> >> Perth, Western Australia
> >> >> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
> >> >> guaranteed  !
> >> >> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
> >> >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> >> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >> >> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> >> >>
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >> >Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards from
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike
> >> Perth, Western Australia
> >> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
> >> guaranteed  !
> >> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
> >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Toward freedom,
> >
> >Bobby Yates Emory
> >_______________________________________________
> >Diy_efi mailing list
> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>



-- 
Toward freedom,

Bobby Yates Emory


From niche at iinet.net.au  Sun Sep  9 23:41:51 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:41:51 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
In-Reply-To: <54b6188b0709092117l209c9452o971a314c12b314be@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
	<b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au>
	<54b6188b0709091936h6030696eo483416f363d9ee2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910113629.027b9170@iinet.net.au>
	<54b6188b0709092117l209c9452o971a314c12b314be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070910123937.027b80b0@iinet.net.au>>

Very true Bobby,
 From V=IR and the volt drop of the LED, 4v for white, 2v for red/green/yellow etc
decide on your current 20mA for red/green/yellow 40mA for white etc...

I'm looking at this from the design perspective, if I can bring out a low cost
yet reasonably smart noid light that tells you if you have a shorted turn on
an injector as well as polarisation issues then maybe I can get enough takers
if I bundle it with some other things, like the fuserail I designed a few years ago,

cheers

mike



At 12:17 PM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>Mike,
>
>(I am not an electronics expert - you may want check this with someone who
>knows which end of the soldering iron to hold.)
>
>It is probable that the injector drive circuit can source the extra current
>to drive the LED while it is also driving the injector.  So using a LED in
>parallel to the injector is probably OK.
>
>I believe that you want to put a current limiting resistor in series with
>the LED to avoid burning out the LED.
>
>Bobby
>
>On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the comments guys,
>>
>> It probably would help if I explained the reason I raised the subject.
>>
>> These days modern electronics can be quite sophisticated, small and low
>> cost,
>>
>> It should therefore be possible to design a "smart" noid light which does
>> the very least such as:-
>>
>> a. Be "inline" with the drive to the injector to observe simultaneous
>> operation.
>> b. Have it show polarity is the same on all injectors (assuming all 6 are
>> wired correctly)
>>   in situations where people build up looms and/or wishing to avoid
>> polarisation if that is an issue.
>> c. Have it indicate whether the injector has a shorted turn.
>>
>> I dont need a Noid light for myself, though it might be a handy tool to
>> leave in the box.
>>
>> Its raised my interest how people swear by them on the forum I listed yet,
>> to me, they
>> seem very simple dumb devices and for the price I would have expected a
>> little more.
>>
>> These days with LEDs using so little current (in comparison with the
>> injector) it shouldnt
>> be necessary to worry about the injector resistance and just wire in a
>> light in parallel in
>> some type of inline connector arrangement.
>>
>> Of course the electronics can be cheap and low cost even for a little
>> sophistication
>> but it seems the packaging and presentation can still be a pain and I
>> guess this is a stumbling
>> block...
>>
>> Thanks for the link to etoolcart but so far, that is the only one I have
>> found even from the calaisturbo
>> site, there just dont seem to be any other people doing them on a
>> commercial basis anywhere,
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 10:36 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>> >Mike,
>> >
>> >I made one - I measured the resistance of the injector - then a small
>> light
>> >- I added resistors to make the resistance similar.  I wired it in in
>> place
>> >of the injector.  It seemed to work - it would light up about when I
>> thought
>> >it it should.
>> >
>> >It seemed to work - but I never got the car running - so I'm not sure
>> this
>> >is a good idea.
>> >
>> >Bobby
>> >
>> >On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Over here in Oz, a "Noid" light seems to be just a simple LED
>> >> which goes in parallel with the injector, its a tool to verify the ECU
>> >> is driving its injector output and that the signal is getting as far
>> >> as the injector, ie All the way through the loom.
>> >>
>> >> You basically, unplug the injector connector and plug in the Noid
>> >> light intot he injector and the injector connector into the noid so
>> >> the noid is "inline" to the injector, when the injector is driven the
>> >> light is supposed to come on.
>> >>
>> >> My question is,
>> >>
>> >> Is this just a basic light or are there any inline type testers like
>> this
>> >> that
>> >> are any more sophisticated ?
>> >>
>> >> I'm not complicating this at present with any Duty cycle issues, just
>> >> wishing
>> >> to find out if people are using anything more sophisticated than a
>> simple
>> >> LED for their inline injector testing ?
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> At 02:35 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>> >> >Im not exactly sure what you are looking for, but this little tester
>> is
>> >> very
>> >> >cool.  Its a dual led test light.  Magnetic pickups can light the leds
>> in
>> >> >this.  Its a pretty helpful little test light.
>> >> >http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=248
>> >> >
>> >> >You could try searching "injector pulse width meter" Not too much
>> comes
>> >> up
>> >> >but i think this is more what your lookin for. Besides these, i cant
>> >> think
>> >> >of anything besides an oscilloscope.
>> >> >
>> >> >On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi chaps,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Nice to see some activity here re logging, a subject in itself, I
>> have
>> >> >> idea for small cheapie
>> >> >> logger and finally pinned down an enclosure/connector combo, but its
>> >> not
>> >> >> USB, just serial
>> >> >> but would work for the most part with the cheapie usb to serial
>> >> >> adaptors...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Anyway, i digress...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm on http://www.calaisturbo.com.au  from time to time as "Niche" -
>> >> funny
>> >> >> that...!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And some people use "Noid" lights to test they have drive to the
>> >> >> injectors, which is (as far
>> >> >> as I understand) just a LED light in a moulding which is pluggable
>> >> inline
>> >> >> with the loom
>> >> >> to the injector at the actual injector. So you can see it blink when
>> >> >> cranking etc...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm interested to know if anyone has a "noid" like type tester or
>> item
>> >> >> which does any more
>> >> >> than just light up an LED when the driver wants to turn on the
>> injector
>> >> ?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Regards from
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Mike
>> >> >> Perth, Western Australia
>> >> >> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
>> >> >> guaranteed  !
>> >> >> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
>> >> >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Diy_efi mailing list
>> >> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >> >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >> >> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>> >> >>
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >> >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >> >Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Regards from
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >> Perth, Western Australia
>> >> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
>> >> guaranteed  !
>> >> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
>> >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Diy_efi mailing list
>> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Toward freedom,
>> >
>> >Bobby Yates Emory
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >Diy_efi mailing list
>> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> >Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Toward freedom,
>
>Bobby Yates Emory
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From ebuckler at icehouse.net  Mon Sep 10 00:20:27 2007
From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 22:20:27 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Noid lights with more functionality?
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au><b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com><7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au><54b6188b0709091936h6030696eo483416f363d9ee2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910113629.027b9170@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <024401c7f36a$4c84e810$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>

Mike,
How would you get such a (presumably single LED) device to indicate whether 
an injector had a shorted turn? (Don't give away secrets, of course)   Is it 
possible to have a simple device read such a minor difference (or is it not 
minor?) and tell the user?  One turn only, shorted, or a number of them? (I 
have no idea how many turns an injector might have, or what guage wire.) 
The reason I ask is that I have a turbo EFI bike that is notorious for 
shorting turns of it's buried stator, so any clue that trouble is coming 
would help avoid the long AAA trip home.  Injectors on this bike test 
"between 1 & 3 ohms" per the manual, and mine measure 2ohms; can a shorted 
turn be picked out of that?
Ernest




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?


> Thanks for the comments guys,
>
> It probably would help if I explained the reason I raised the subject.
>
> These days modern electronics can be quite sophisticated, small and low 
> cost,
>
> It should therefore be possible to design a "smart" noid light which does 
> the very least such as:-
>
> a. Be "inline" with the drive to the injector to observe simultaneous 
> operation.
> b. Have it show polarity is the same on all injectors (assuming all 6 are 
> wired correctly)
>  in situations where people build up looms and/or wishing to avoid 
> polarisation if that is an issue.
> c. Have it indicate whether the injector has a shorted turn.
>
> I dont need a Noid light for myself, though it might be a handy tool to 
> leave in the box.
>
> Its raised my interest how people swear by them on the forum I listed yet, 
> to me, they
> seem very simple dumb devices and for the price I would have expected a 
> little more.
>
> These days with LEDs using so little current (in comparison with the 
> injector) it shouldnt
> be necessary to worry about the injector resistance and just wire in a 
> light in parallel in
> some type of inline connector arrangement.
>
> Of course the electronics can be cheap and low cost even for a little 
> sophistication
> but it seems the packaging and presentation can still be a pain and I 
> guess this is a stumbling
> block...
>
> Thanks for the link to etoolcart but so far, that is the only one I have 
> found even from the calaisturbo
> site, there just dont seem to be any other people doing them on a 
> commercial basis anywhere,
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> At 10:36 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>>Mike,
>>
>>I made one - I measured the resistance of the injector - then a small 
>>light
>>- I added resistors to make the resistance similar.  I wired it in in 
>>place
>>of the injector.  It seemed to work - it would light up about when I 
>>thought
>>it it should.
>>
>>It seemed to work - but I never got the car running - so I'm not sure this
>>is a good idea.
>>
>>Bobby
>>
>>On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>>
>>> Over here in Oz, a "Noid" light seems to be just a simple LED
>>> which goes in parallel with the injector, its a tool to verify the ECU
>>> is driving its injector output and that the signal is getting as far
>>> as the injector, ie All the way through the loom.
>>>
>>> You basically, unplug the injector connector and plug in the Noid
>>> light intot he injector and the injector connector into the noid so
>>> the noid is "inline" to the injector, when the injector is driven the
>>> light is supposed to come on.
>>>
>>> My question is,
>>>
>>> Is this just a basic light or are there any inline type testers like 
>>> this
>>> that
>>> are any more sophisticated ?
>>>
>>> I'm not complicating this at present with any Duty cycle issues, just
>>> wishing
>>> to find out if people are using anything more sophisticated than a 
>>> simple
>>> LED for their inline injector testing ?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 02:35 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>>> >Im not exactly sure what you are looking for, but this little tester is
>>> very
>>> >cool.  Its a dual led test light.  Magnetic pickups can light the leds 
>>> >in
>>> >this.  Its a pretty helpful little test light.
>>> >http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=248
>>> >
>>> >You could try searching "injector pulse width meter" Not too much comes
>>> up
>>> >but i think this is more what your lookin for. Besides these, i cant
>>> think
>>> >of anything besides an oscilloscope.
>>> >
>>> >On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Hi chaps,
>>> >>
>>> >> Nice to see some activity here re logging, a subject in itself, I 
>>> >> have
>>> >> idea for small cheapie
>>> >> logger and finally pinned down an enclosure/connector combo, but its
>>> not
>>> >> USB, just serial
>>> >> but would work for the most part with the cheapie usb to serial
>>> >> adaptors...
>>> >>
>>> >> Anyway, i digress...
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm on http://www.calaisturbo.com.au  from time to time as "Niche" -
>>> funny
>>> >> that...!
>>> >>
>>> >> And some people use "Noid" lights to test they have drive to the
>>> >> injectors, which is (as far
>>> >> as I understand) just a LED light in a moulding which is pluggable
>>> inline
>>> >> with the loom
>>> >> to the injector at the actual injector. So you can see it blink when
>>> >> cranking etc...
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm interested to know if anyone has a "noid" like type tester or 
>>> >> item
>>> >> which does any more
>>> >> than just light up an LED when the driver wants to turn on the 
>>> >> injector
>>> ?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards from
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Mike
>>> >> Perth, Western Australia
>>> >> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
>>> >> guaranteed  !
>>> >> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
>>> >> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>> >> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>> >>
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >Diy_efi mailing list
>>> >Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> >Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>> >Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards from
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> Perth, Western Australia
>>> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
>>> guaranteed  !
>>> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
>>> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>Toward freedom,
>>
>>Bobby Yates Emory
>>_______________________________________________
>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.12/997 - Release Date: 9/9/2007 
> 10:17 AM
>
> 



From niche at iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 10 00:33:50 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:33:50 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Noid lights with more functionality?
In-Reply-To: <024401c7f36a$4c84e810$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
	<b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au>
	<54b6188b0709091936h6030696eo483416f363d9ee2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910113629.027b9170@iinet.net.au>
	<024401c7f36a$4c84e810$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070910132737.027c01e0@iinet.net.au>>

Hi Ernest,

Yes there are ways to do it without the need to measure milli-ohms, things like the connector
surface resistance is enough to mislead injector resistances so that makes it hard even if
you have a tester/multimeter capable of high resolution etc.

Its nothing hard really, so I might as well let slip ;)

When the injector fires it effectively stores the drive current as a magnetic field, when the drive is
taken away the magnetic field has to go somewhere and this results in the classic "back EMF"
from the equation V=L.di/dt.

Where V= voltage produced, L=Inductance, di = change in current, dt = period of time

So the characteristic of the back emf changes if there is a shorted turn and it just takes one to
make this difference noticeable.

afaik, for the bosch injectors I use I guess they have a couple of hundred turns at least though I'm not sure of
the wire gauge, though from comparative observations on relays it appears like 0.5mm or so,

regards

mike



At 01:20 PM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>Mike,
>How would you get such a (presumably single LED) device to indicate whether an injector had a shorted turn? (Don't give away secrets, of course)   Is it possible to have a simple device read such a minor difference (or is it not minor?) and tell the user?  One turn only, shorted, or a number of them? (I have no idea how many turns an injector might have, or what guage wire.) The reason I ask is that I have a turbo EFI bike that is notorious for shorting turns of it's buried stator, so any clue that trouble is coming would help avoid the long AAA trip home.  Injectors on this bike test "between 1 & 3 ohms" per the manual, and mine measure 2ohms; can a shorted turn be picked out of that?
>Ernest
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 8:46 PM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
>
>
>>Thanks for the comments guys,
>>
>>It probably would help if I explained the reason I raised the subject.
>>
>>These days modern electronics can be quite sophisticated, small and low cost,
>>
>>It should therefore be possible to design a "smart" noid light which does the very least such as:-
>>
>>a. Be "inline" with the drive to the injector to observe simultaneous operation.
>>b. Have it show polarity is the same on all injectors (assuming all 6 are wired correctly)
>> in situations where people build up looms and/or wishing to avoid polarisation if that is an issue.
>>c. Have it indicate whether the injector has a shorted turn.
>>
>>I dont need a Noid light for myself, though it might be a handy tool to leave in the box.
>>
>>Its raised my interest how people swear by them on the forum I listed yet, to me, they
>>seem very simple dumb devices and for the price I would have expected a little more.
>>
>>These days with LEDs using so little current (in comparison with the injector) it shouldnt
>>be necessary to worry about the injector resistance and just wire in a light in parallel in
>>some type of inline connector arrangement.
>>
>>Of course the electronics can be cheap and low cost even for a little sophistication
>>but it seems the packaging and presentation can still be a pain and I guess this is a stumbling
>>block...
>>
>>Thanks for the link to etoolcart but so far, that is the only one I have found even from the calaisturbo
>>site, there just dont seem to be any other people doing them on a commercial basis anywhere,
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 10:36 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>>>Mike,
>>>
>>>I made one - I measured the resistance of the injector - then a small light
>>>- I added resistors to make the resistance similar.  I wired it in in place
>>>of the injector.  It seemed to work - it would light up about when I thought
>>>it it should.
>>>
>>>It seemed to work - but I never got the car running - so I'm not sure this
>>>is a good idea.
>>>
>>>Bobby
>>>
>>>On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Over here in Oz, a "Noid" light seems to be just a simple LED
>>>>which goes in parallel with the injector, its a tool to verify the ECU
>>>>is driving its injector output and that the signal is getting as far
>>>>as the injector, ie All the way through the loom.
>>>>
>>>>You basically, unplug the injector connector and plug in the Noid
>>>>light intot he injector and the injector connector into the noid so
>>>>the noid is "inline" to the injector, when the injector is driven the
>>>>light is supposed to come on.
>>>>
>>>>My question is,
>>>>
>>>>Is this just a basic light or are there any inline type testers like this
>>>>that
>>>>are any more sophisticated ?
>>>>
>>>>I'm not complicating this at present with any Duty cycle issues, just
>>>>wishing
>>>>to find out if people are using anything more sophisticated than a simple
>>>>LED for their inline injector testing ?
>>>>
>>>>Regards
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>At 02:35 AM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>>>>>Im not exactly sure what you are looking for, but this little tester is
>>>>very
>>>>>cool.  Its a dual led test light.  Magnetic pickups can light the leds >in
>>>>>this.  Its a pretty helpful little test light.
>>>>>http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=248
>>>>>
>>>>>You could try searching "injector pulse width meter" Not too much comes
>>>>up
>>>>>but i think this is more what your lookin for. Besides these, i cant
>>>>think
>>>>>of anything besides an oscilloscope.
>>>>>
>>>>>On 9/9/07, Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi chaps,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice to see some activity here re logging, a subject in itself, I >> have
>>>>>> idea for small cheapie
>>>>>> logger and finally pinned down an enclosure/connector combo, but its
>>>>not
>>>>>> USB, just serial
>>>>>> but would work for the most part with the cheapie usb to serial
>>>>>> adaptors...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, i digress...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm on http://www.calaisturbo.com.au  from time to time as "Niche" -
>>>>funny
>>>>>> that...!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And some people use "Noid" lights to test they have drive to the
>>>>>> injectors, which is (as far
>>>>>> as I understand) just a LED light in a moulding which is pluggable
>>>>inline
>>>>>> with the loom
>>>>>> to the injector at the actual injector. So you can see it blink when
>>>>>> cranking etc...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm interested to know if anyone has a "noid" like type tester or >> item
>>>>>> which does any more
>>>>>> than just light up an LED when the driver wants to turn on the >> injector
>>>>?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards from
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>> Perth, Western Australia
>>>>>> VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
>>>>>> guaranteed  !
>>>>>> Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
>>>>>> http://niche.iinet.net.au
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Diy_efi mailing list
>>>>>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>>>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>>>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>>>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>>>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>>>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Regards from
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>Perth, Western Australia
>>>>VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt,
>>>>guaranteed  !
>>>>Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
>>>>http://niche.iinet.net.au
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-- Toward freedom,
>>>
>>>Bobby Yates Emory
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>_______________________________________________
>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.12/997 - Release Date: 9/9/2007 10:17 AM
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From spyro at f2s.com  Mon Sep 10 06:54:14 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:54:14 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070910113629.027b9170@iinet.net.au>>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
	<b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au>
	<54b6188b0709091936h6030696eo483416f363d9ee2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910113629.027b9170@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <1189425254.2592.0.camel@wirenth>

On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 11:46 +0800, Mike wrote:
> 
> It should therefore be possible to design a "smart" noid light which
> does the very least such as:- 

Isnt that called a 'scope ?



From arsoftware at gmail.com  Mon Sep 10 07:24:43 2007
From: arsoftware at gmail.com (Alex Ruiz)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:24:43 -0200
Subject: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
In-Reply-To: <1189289870.12055.0.camel@wirenth>
References: <b52bf8c50709081359l60b3ed4fhc14005d5acdcbdc2@mail.gmail.com>
	<1189289870.12055.0.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <7b372cc90709100524o7dace598ja718a934ff4ebcd7@mail.gmail.com>

take a look at tiepie.com
they have pretty nice USB scopes, up to 4 channels + wave generator.

Alex


2007/9/8, ian <spyro at f2s.com>:
> On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 16:59 -0400, Jay Rabe wrote:
> > I've been looking at www.usbee.com devices.  Problem is it only has 1
> > analog channel (it has 2 but you can only view 1 at a time...)  It can
> > output just about any digital signal you can draw up but in square
> > wave and
> > under 5 v.  Its sorta along the lines of what im looking for but isnt
> > perfect.
> >
>
> if its usb... use more than one ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>


From niche at iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 10 07:26:27 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:26:27 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
In-Reply-To: <1189425254.2592.0.camel@wirenth>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
	<b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au>
	<54b6188b0709091936h6030696eo483416f363d9ee2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910113629.027b9170@iinet.net.au>
	<1189425254.2592.0.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070910202409.027ba090@iinet.net.au>>

At 07:54 PM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 11:46 +0800, Mike wrote:
>> 
>> It should therefore be possible to design a "smart" noid light which
>> does the very least such as:- 
>
>Isnt that called a 'scope ?

*grin*

Show me a man who wants a $20 scope and I'll show you a man who
values pigs over pearls for appearance ;-)

or

Show me a man who knows how to use and read a scope (DSO) and I'll
show you a man who never has spare time and writes code for the Mars Explorer ;-)

or

... but I digress...

Cheers





Regards from


Mike Massen
Network Power Systems
Lab 08 9444 8961
Mb 0438 048961
Perth, Western Australia
* VL/VK & VN/VP/VR GMH Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
* RB30 Skyline/Nissan/VL Milspec ignition drivers with diagnostic features now in economy trials
* Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
* Industrial grade PolyVinyliDeneChloride (PVDC Copolymer) in bulk, the best
  oxygen and water protective barrier you can find for circuit boards.
* Special equipment on offer, 60KVA UPS with large battery cabinet - AUD$12K
Web site under construction   http://niche.iinet.net.au


From spyro at f2s.com  Mon Sep 10 07:33:51 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:33:51 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070910202409.027ba090@iinet.net.au>>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
	<b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au>
	<54b6188b0709091936h6030696eo483416f363d9ee2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910113629.027b9170@iinet.net.au>
	<1189425254.2592.0.camel@wirenth>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910202409.027ba090@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <1189427631.2592.14.camel@wirenth>

On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 20:26 +0800, Mike wrote:
> 
> *grin*
> 
> Show me a man who wants a $20 scope and I'll show you a man who
> values pigs over pearls for appearance ;-)

actually its starting to get interesting what sort of scop eyou can get
in the ~100 range now.

granted you wont be using them to diagnose mobile phone transmitters,
but they are certainly useful devices...



From spyro at f2s.com  Mon Sep 10 07:35:51 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:35:51 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
In-Reply-To: <7b372cc90709100524o7dace598ja718a934ff4ebcd7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b52bf8c50709081359l60b3ed4fhc14005d5acdcbdc2@mail.gmail.com>
	<1189289870.12055.0.camel@wirenth>
	<7b372cc90709100524o7dace598ja718a934ff4ebcd7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1189427751.2592.16.camel@wirenth>

On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 10:24 -0200, Alex Ruiz wrote:
> take a look at tiepie.com
> they have pretty nice USB scopes, up to 4 channels + wave generator.

Cute, but well over 5 times the price of the poscope, which will do me
nicely :-)



From niche at iinet.net.au  Mon Sep 10 07:52:46 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:52:46 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
In-Reply-To: <1189427631.2592.14.camel@wirenth>
References: <7.0.1.0.0.20070909190824.027bb210@iinet.net.au>
	<b52bf8c50709091135i1b01da55mc53cc28e55c475c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910034045.02730880@iinet.net.au>
	<54b6188b0709091936h6030696eo483416f363d9ee2e@mail.gmail.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910113629.027b9170@iinet.net.au>
	<1189425254.2592.0.camel@wirenth>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070910202409.027ba090@iinet.net.au>
	<1189427631.2592.14.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070910204316.027c0930@iinet.net.au>>

Yeah true,

One day some enterprising instrument company will bite the bullet and tightly integrate the
LCD driver chipset with a processor and A/D convertors. phase discriminators, etc etc
and bring out something like a Creative Zen Vision M that has a full on scope, we have seen that
already re some game boy.

But hey if the semi makers and mobile ph companies get really switched on wouldnt it be
nice if a N95 or similar had a series of analog inputs and means to program up a DSO either by
Java or access to task on the main micro etc and perhaps even a low end spectrum analsyer <sigh>
The speculation makes my head spin,

One way we can reverse the trend of de-skilling that a lot of mainstream companies are guilty of
is by building up the technological base through instrumentation built into devices such as multimedia
phones or at the very least some open source type option for your own selection of instrumentation
to suit your lifestyle, blood pressure, heart rate, car battery voltage, humidity, CO when driving etc.
I mean we already have a co in USA building beta decay radiation detectors into some phones with
GPS to report radiation readings on the ping/pong from the base station without our intervention !
Why the f..k dont we have multimeters, at the very least, inside our mobile phones, obvious isnt it
as *all* the basic stuff is already there, just not bloddy thought about...

Gosh the world has changed and we have only just scratched the surface, materials properties with
potential for tight integration with organic (live) interfaces just has to be next, too logical for it to
not be sensible or illogical ;-)


Cheers




At 08:33 PM 9/10/07, you wrote:
>On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 20:26 +0800, Mike wrote:
>> 
>> *grin*
>> 
>> Show me a man who wants a $20 scope and I'll show you a man who
>> values pigs over pearls for appearance ;-)
>
>actually its starting to get interesting what sort of scop eyou can get
>in the ~100 range now.
>
>granted you wont be using them to diagnose mobile phone transmitters,
>but they are certainly useful devices...
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From j_holland at btopenworld.com  Mon Sep 10 12:09:35 2007
From: j_holland at btopenworld.com (James Holland)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:09:35 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: The so called "Noid" lights ?
Message-ID: <mailman.19.1311919666.4627.diy_efi@diy-efi.org>

> From: ian <spyro at f2s.com>
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Message-ID: <1189425254.2592.0.camel at wirenth>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> 
> On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 11:46 +0800, Mike wrote:
> >
> > It should therefore be possible to design a "smart" noid light which
> > does the very least such as:-
> 
> Isnt that called a 'scope ?
> 

All very high tech, I usually use an AVO. For example 12V at 100% = 12V, 12V
at 50% = 6V. For a peak and hold injector the calculations would be a little
more complex. This is also the method specified in my FSM for measuring duty
cycles - of course they specify a Suzuki meter which I'm sure costs a lot
more than an old AVO.
Cheers
James




From byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Sep 10 19:26:41 2007
From: byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net (Jim)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:26:41 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
In-Reply-To: <1189427751.2592.16.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <000001c7f40a$6d023520$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>

Here is another interesting scope - $129 for dual channel storage scope
and spectrum analyzer capability.  Limited bandwidth but would be
adequate to see all the signals on an EFI.
http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H1976.html

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of ian
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:36 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)

On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 10:24 -0200, Alex Ruiz wrote:
> take a look at tiepie.com
> they have pretty nice USB scopes, up to 4 channels + wave generator.

Cute, but well over 5 times the price of the poscope, which will do me
nicely :-)

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From steve at donegan.org  Mon Sep 10 20:57:29 2007
From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:57:29 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
In-Reply-To: <000001c7f40a$6d023520$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>
References: <000001c7f40a$6d023520$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>
Message-ID: <1189475849.12330.3.camel@wopr.donegan.org>

As long as you're watching 'slow' signals that item will work just
dandy. If you want to watch anything fast (as in say Ion signals) you
really want a much faster/higher resolution system. At some point I am
going to have to cross that particular bridge :-)

On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 20:26 -0400, Jim wrote:
> Here is another interesting scope - $129 for dual channel storage scope
> and spectrum analyzer capability.  Limited bandwidth but would be
> adequate to see all the signals on an EFI.
> http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H1976.html
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
> On Behalf Of ian
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:36 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
> 
> On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 10:24 -0200, Alex Ruiz wrote:
> > take a look at tiepie.com
> > they have pretty nice USB scopes, up to 4 channels + wave generator.
> 
> Cute, but well over 5 times the price of the poscope, which will do me
> nicely :-)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From damonb at avaya.com  Mon Sep 10 21:00:26 2007
From: damonb at avaya.com (Becker, Damon Joseph (Damon))
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:00:26 -0600
Subject: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
References: <000001c7f40a$6d023520$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>
	<1189475849.12330.3.camel@wopr.donegan.org>
Message-ID: <71C3797C8397694EA4F9FD754B0FAFFA03A29A@306181ANEX3.global.avaya.com>

I have used similar devices with great success.  There are automotive signals it won't pick up, but they are few.  For example, the Skyline uses a 360-tooth VR crank trigger.  I suspect it's the flywheel.  

________________________________

From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org on behalf of Steven P. Donegan
Sent: Mon 9/10/2007 7:57 PM
To: byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net; diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)



As long as you're watching 'slow' signals that item will work just
dandy. If you want to watch anything fast (as in say Ion signals) you
really want a much faster/higher resolution system. At some point I am
going to have to cross that particular bridge :-)

On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 20:26 -0400, Jim wrote:
> Here is another interesting scope - $129 for dual channel storage scope
> and spectrum analyzer capability.  Limited bandwidth but would be
> adequate to see all the signals on an EFI.
> http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H1976.html
>
> Jim
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
> On Behalf Of ian
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:36 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
>
> On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 10:24 -0200, Alex Ruiz wrote:
> > take a look at tiepie.com
> > they have pretty nice USB scopes, up to 4 channels + wave generator.
>
> Cute, but well over 5 times the price of the poscope, which will do me
> nicely :-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi




From steve at donegan.org  Mon Sep 10 21:22:47 2007
From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:22:47 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
In-Reply-To: <71C3797C8397694EA4F9FD754B0FAFFA03A29A@306181ANEX3.global.avaya.com>
References: <000001c7f40a$6d023520$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>
	<1189475849.12330.3.camel@wopr.donegan.org>
	<71C3797C8397694EA4F9FD754B0FAFFA03A29A@306181ANEX3.global.avaya.com>
Message-ID: <1189477367.12330.7.camel@wopr.donegan.org>

I have a 2007 350Z so I would guess mine is the same. When I get back to
my Ion work I will need a pretty high frequency response unit. Likely
several hundred MHz. Will deal with that when I get there :-)

On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 20:00 -0600, Becker, Damon Joseph (Damon) wrote:
> I have used similar devices with great success.  There are automotive signals it won't pick up, but they are few.  For example, the Skyline uses a 360-tooth VR crank trigger.  I suspect it's the flywheel.  
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org on behalf of Steven P. Donegan
> Sent: Mon 9/10/2007 7:57 PM
> To: byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net; diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
> 
> 
> 
> As long as you're watching 'slow' signals that item will work just
> dandy. If you want to watch anything fast (as in say Ion signals) you
> really want a much faster/higher resolution system. At some point I am
> going to have to cross that particular bridge :-)
> 
> On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 20:26 -0400, Jim wrote:
> > Here is another interesting scope - $129 for dual channel storage scope
> > and spectrum analyzer capability.  Limited bandwidth but would be
> > adequate to see all the signals on an EFI.
> > http://www.hobbyengineering.com/H1976.html
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
> > On Behalf Of ian
> > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 8:36 AM
> > To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] USB oscilloscopes (a bit OT)
> >
> > On Mon, 2007-09-10 at 10:24 -0200, Alex Ruiz wrote:
> > > take a look at tiepie.com
> > > they have pretty nice USB scopes, up to 4 channels + wave generator.
> >
> > Cute, but well over 5 times the price of the poscope, which will do me
> > nicely :-)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
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> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
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> 
> 
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From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 02:57:02 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:57:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] The so called "Noid" lights ?
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070910204316.027c0930@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <150843.50564.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Mike <niche at iinet.net.au> wrote:

> Yeah true,
> 
> One day some enterprising instrument company will
> bite the bullet and tightly integrate the
> LCD driver chipset with a processor and A/D
> convertors. phase discriminators, etc etc
> and bring out something like a Creative Zen Vision M
> that has a full on scope, we have seen that
> already re some game boy.

The Nintendo DS would be a great platform for
something like that. It has two cartridge sockets, one
for Gameboy Advance (and most anything that'll plug
into a GBA) and a second for DS games. Some games use
both sockets, but AFAIK they only use the GBA slot for
a "rumble pack"- I've no idea if more complex uses can
be done with the GBA socket when the DS socket is in
use.

The two screens with the touchscreen feature and Wifi
could also be used for diagnostics.

How about a CAN/OBD2 reader with a wireless connection
to a Nintendo DS? :)


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz 


From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 03:54:36 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
In-Reply-To: <1189477367.12330.7.camel@wopr.donegan.org>
Message-ID: <428476.73475.qm@web50308.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

I'm looking for a source for internal motor linear
actuators, as seen on this site.

http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71&sort=20a&page=2

I saw a Camaro with the hood kit they sell and the
manufacturer's URL was on the actuators, but of course
I happened to forget my PDA at home and I didn't have
a pen or anything else to write it with or on.

They're exactly what I need to replace the hydraulics
on a 1952 Hudson Hornet convertible top.


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more!
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/3658 


From spyro at f2s.com  Tue Sep 11 05:24:25 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:24:25 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
In-Reply-To: <428476.73475.qm@web50308.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <428476.73475.qm@web50308.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1189506265.2592.49.camel@wirenth>

On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 01:54 -0700, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> I'm looking for a source for internal motor linear
> actuators, as seen on this site.
> 
> http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71&sort=20a&page=2

Correct me if Im wrong, but it seems like the site you cite sells just
that?



From niche at iinet.net.au  Tue Sep 11 07:59:05 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:59:05 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
In-Reply-To: <1189506265.2592.49.camel@wirenth>
References: <428476.73475.qm@web50308.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<1189506265.2592.49.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070911205802.027c1240@iinet.net.au>>

Price is a bit high, I interpret Gregg is prob looking for a mass produced auto equivalent
perhaps with one prior thoughtful technical owner who happens to lurk here ;-)

mike



At 06:24 PM 9/11/07, you wrote:
>On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 01:54 -0700, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
>> I'm looking for a source for internal motor linear
>> actuators, as seen on this site.
>> 
>> http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71&sort=20a&page=2
>
>Correct me if Im wrong, but it seems like the site you cite sells just
>that?
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From davida1 at hiwaay.net  Tue Sep 11 08:05:06 2007
From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:05:06 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
References: <428476.73475.qm@web50308.mail.re2.yahoo.com><1189506265.2592.49.camel@wirenth>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070911205802.027c1240@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <05da01c7f474$62245380$2000a8c0@yancey.com>

  Just a quick thought - Grain combines (harverters) use these actuators for 
adjusting different parts of the threshing mechanism.  Might look to AGCO 
dealer (Gleaner and Challenger combines) or to John Deere or Case.  If you 
have a motivated parts person, use their computer system and search for 
"actuator."
  Later,
David


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.


> Price is a bit high, I interpret Gregg is prob looking for a mass produced 
> auto equivalent
> perhaps with one prior thoughtful technical owner who happens to lurk here 
> ;-)
>
> mike
>
>
>
> At 06:24 PM 9/11/07, you wrote:
>>On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 01:54 -0700, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
>>> I'm looking for a source for internal motor linear
>>> actuators, as seen on this site.
>>>
>>> http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71&sort=20a&page=2
>>
>>Correct me if Im wrong, but it seems like the site you cite sells just
>>that?
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 



From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep 11 10:11:54 2007
From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:11:54 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
In-Reply-To: <05da01c7f474$62245380$2000a8c0@yancey.com>
References: <428476.73475.qm@web50308.mail.re2.yahoo.com><1189506265.2592.49.camel@wirenth>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070911205802.027c1240@iinet.net.au>>
	<05da01c7f474$62245380$2000a8c0@yancey.com>
Message-ID: <tubde3dp66ampdn1l1ul84aiijjg64d5on@4ax.com>

check mcmaster.com 

or that autolok company that advertises in EVERY magazine 

Mike 

...or don't i have no feelings i don't care.



On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:05:06 -0500, you wrote:

>  Just a quick thought - Grain combines (harverters) use these actuators for 
>adjusting different parts of the threshing mechanism.  Might look to AGCO 
>dealer (Gleaner and Challenger combines) or to John Deere or Case.  If you 
>have a motivated parts person, use their computer system and search for 
>"actuator."
>  Later,
>David
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:59 AM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
>
>
>> Price is a bit high, I interpret Gregg is prob looking for a mass produced 
>> auto equivalent
>> perhaps with one prior thoughtful technical owner who happens to lurk here 
>> ;-)
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>> At 06:24 PM 9/11/07, you wrote:
>>>On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 01:54 -0700, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
>>>> I'm looking for a source for internal motor linear
>>>> actuators, as seen on this site.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71&sort=20a&page=2
>>>
>>>Correct me if Im wrong, but it seems like the site you cite sells just
>>>that?
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>> 
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From james.d.ulmer at usps.gov  Tue Sep 11 11:47:15 2007
From: james.d.ulmer at usps.gov (Ulmer, James D - Denver, CO)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:47:15 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
In-Reply-To: <tubde3dp66ampdn1l1ul84aiijjg64d5on@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <11C99472FAC536408B55E5E30924AB2D05AFCAB2@EAGNMNSXM18>

http://surpluscenter.com/ carries a variety of surplus linear actuators
at decent prices.

Big Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of Mike Yates
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 9:12 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.

check mcmaster.com 

or that autolok company that advertises in EVERY magazine 

Mike 

...or don't i have no feelings i don't care.



On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:05:06 -0500, you wrote:

>  Just a quick thought - Grain combines (harverters) use these
actuators for 
>adjusting different parts of the threshing mechanism.  Might look to
AGCO 
>dealer (Gleaner and Challenger combines) or to John Deere or Case.  If
you 
>have a motivated parts person, use their computer system and search for

>"actuator."
>  Later,
>David
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Mike" <niche at iinet.net.au>
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 7:59 AM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
>
>
>> Price is a bit high, I interpret Gregg is prob looking for a mass
produced 
>> auto equivalent
>> perhaps with one prior thoughtful technical owner who happens to lurk
here 
>> ;-)
>>
>> mike
>>
>>
>>
>> At 06:24 PM 9/11/07, you wrote:
>>>On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 01:54 -0700, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
>>>> I'm looking for a source for internal motor linear
>>>> actuators, as seen on this site.
>>>>
>>>>
http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7
1&sort=20a&page=2
>>>
>>>Correct me if Im wrong, but it seems like the site you cite sells
just
>>>that?
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>> 
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 11 15:37:02 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
In-Reply-To: <1189506265.2592.49.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <916042.94491.qm@web50308.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- ian <spyro at f2s.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 01:54 -0700, Gregg Eshelman
> wrote:
> > I'm looking for a source for internal motor linear
> > actuators, as seen on this site.
> > 
> >
>
http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71&sort=20a&page=2
> 
> Correct me if Im wrong, but it seems like the site
> you cite sells just that?

I'd like to see if I can buy direct from a manufacturer.


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow  


From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net  Tue Sep 11 15:58:14 2007
From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:58:14 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
In-Reply-To: <916042.94491.qm@web50308.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <1189506265.2592.49.camel@wirenth>
	<916042.94491.qm@web50308.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <480ee3hvc5a7porgnbknfsnfa80qvrifnm@4ax.com>

where are you located?

You can stop by my office and browse my shelf of catalogs and we can
work something out....if you're in So-Cal.   I have several sources
from Manufacturers for linear motion systems.


Mike


On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:37:02 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>--- ian <spyro at f2s.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 01:54 -0700, Gregg Eshelman
>> wrote:
>> > I'm looking for a source for internal motor linear
>> > actuators, as seen on this site.
>> > 
>> >
>>
>http://www.streetdreamsbyross.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71&sort=20a&page=2
>> 
>> Correct me if Im wrong, but it seems like the site
>> you cite sells just that?
>
>I'd like to see if I can buy direct from a manufacturer.
>
>
>       
>____________________________________________________________________________________
>Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
>http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow  
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Tue Sep 11 16:38:49 2007
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:38:49 EDT
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
Message-ID: <c18.1bafed00.341864e9@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/11/2007 1:59:06 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net writes:

where  are you located?

You can stop by my office and browse my shelf of  catalogs and we can
work something out....if you're in So-Cal.    I have several sources
from Manufacturers for linear motion  systems.


Mike



I don't know where Mike is located but I'm interested in linear actuators;  
I'm definitely in So.Cal.; where is your office?
 
Scotty from Hollyweird



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


From davida1 at hiwaay.net  Tue Sep 11 21:43:00 2007
From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:43:00 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: [jyturbo] No drag racing tomorrow - tubo shot -
	baghhhh!
References: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEEEHIKCAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
Message-ID: <065c01c7f4e6$a4ea9180$2000a8c0@yancey.com>

  Damn that sucks.  I really hate to hear that!!!!!
As for the bearings, I would not worry.  The metal from failed turbo 
bearings is fine enough that it should not pose a problem. Just change the 
oil and filter, and replace/ repair the turbo. I would stick with the same 
type turbo if I were you. That way you don't have to re-fabricate 
everything. You probably only need bearings and a compressor wheel anyway?
  Was your turbo from a Cummins 5.9? If so please e-mail me off-list.
  It sucks when things like this happen.  My incident was not as bad because 
I already had several years out of my setup.  Anyway I broke a 1/8" drill 
bit mounting some headlight relays under the hood.  The hot tip of the 
broken bit landed on the flex hose between the intake pipe and air filter. 
It melted through.  After months of laying in the intake pipe, that piece of 
a bit finally went through the turbo.  I heard what sounded like brief 
pinging in the engine, then after that I could only build 5 or 6 PSI boost. 
And the turbo sounded really sick.  It destroyed the compressor wheel and 
the imbalance wrecked the bearings.  I was a Rajay turbo from the 70's. 
Could not get any parts for it and had to buy a new/ different turbo and 
re-fabricate the system.
  I only changed the oil and filter, and put a new turbo; and that was 
10,000 miles ago or better. No engine problems.  In the end I ended up with 
about  50 more HP because the new turbo was actually spec'd out for my 
motor. So all's well that ends well.
Thanks,
David

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Daniel Nicoson" <A6intruder at myo-p.com>
To: "Jyturbo" <jyturbo at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 9:20 PM
Subject: [jyturbo] No drag racing tomorrow - tubo shot - baghhhh!


> Ken Campbell,
>
> I guess this is why you do your first turbo project with a used unit. 
> Less
> money shot when you realized how inept you can be.  I have my "music
> therapy" headset on while I type.  Lots of work to crapped out in three 
> days
> of driving the turbo install.
>
> Everyone,
>
> I jacked the front of the car up tonight to check everything out after 
> three
> days and about 200 miles of driving.  The track is 60+ miles away. I 
> didn't
> want stupid things like loose bolts to bite me on the drive over.  Turns 
> out
> there was several loose bolts.  One was from a muffler clamp, heard that 
> one
> on the way home tonight when it hit the road and bounced up to hit the
> bottom of the car.  No biggie.  I had suspected that the two bolts holding
> the oil return fitting might be loose since on every shut-down there was 
> 15
> minutes of light smoke while it cooled off but again no great problem, no
> measurable loose of oil, just tighten them up.
>
> While trouble shooting the oil return I noticed how the compressor 
> discharge
> pipe was quite loose and in-fact from below the car I could see the
> compressor scroll move slightly.  That's not good...
>
> I looked at the turbo from above the engine, the big-ass snap ring is
> sitting there completely loose on the turbo, doing nothing to secure the
> compressor scroll!  How the heck was it still running?  Only thing I can
> figure is that my tight packaging allowed the infeed ducting to hold the
> scroll in place.
>
> Well, I took it all apart and the compressor wheel did scrape the inside 
> of
> the scroll.  I could overlook that but I can't overlook the chunk of
> compressor wheel that is gone...
>
> I think this thing ate itself the first night when the throttle jammed 
> after
> 5 miles of use and has been eating itself since.  It turns out the big
> rubber o-ring that seals the scroll to the center section must have been 
> the
> black rubber that I found in the throttle body jamming the throttle plate
> that first night.
>
> Axial run out has to be a good 1/16" on the compressor so it must have
> totally eaten the new bearings.
>
> I'm not too worried about the little bit of aluminum that DID go through 
> my
> engine (from the compressor wheel).  I will do a compression check before
> running again and if all checks OK I'll run it.
>
> A bigger concern is how contaminated might my oil system be from these 
> turbo
> bearings eating themselves.  I guess that might explain the low oil 
> pressure
> at idle.
>
> 96,000 miles on this motor.  If good compression check, do I really need 
> to
> disassemble the engine to replace all bearings?  I'd be inclined to flush
> with fresh oil and keep running it.
>
> Thoughts on oil contamination?
>
> Any good turbos out there comparable to a Holset HX35W?  I am using an
> external waste gate so I can consider other similar models.
>
> I think I will let the car sit a couple nights before I tear into it
> again...
>
> Later,
>
> Dan Nicoson
>
> 


From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Tue Sep 11 21:55:38 2007
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:55:38 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
In-Reply-To: <000001c7f18d$25e62130$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>
Message-ID: <F2C29ABA4D75714AAFC89187D9D8F293A6E33F@THUNDERBIRD.usa.Arm.com>

Hi Jim, sounds like a good project you've got going there. 

> Now, my questions.  

For some reason the DIY list has always favored GM.  There's never been
a poll to see what people like, but most of the discussion of factory
systems has been GM, probably followed next by Bosch.  I'm not sure why
that is, I know there are Ford hackers.  If there are any Ford guys here
you should decloak more often!  anyway...

> 3.	I have all the sensors including the Vehicle Speed Sensor
> connected to the harness, so my check-engine light goes off, 
> but I do not have the VSS connected to the speedo cable.  If 
> I understand correctly (mainly from the Probst book on Ford 
> EFI), VSS is used for economy and emissions purposes, like 
> cutting off fuel during deceleration.  Is there any reason I 
> should build an adapter so it can see actual vehicle speed? 
> Thanks in advance for any help.

I can't answer this question specifically but on GMs VSS also figures
into IAC reset and cannister purge.  It's best in general to make the
computer not realize that it's been transplanted, at least until you
have a very good understanding of the interaction between all of the
systems it controls.  There are a wide variety of VSS solutions,
including things like cutting your own wheel out of sheet metal and
attaching it to the driveshaft at the rear U-joint bolts.

hope that helps some,

--steve

-- 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.  Thank you.




From Steve.Ravet at arm.com  Tue Sep 11 22:03:20 2007
From: Steve.Ravet at arm.com (Steve Ravet)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:03:20 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Water injection
In-Reply-To: <46E08C9A.5000409@nec.com.au>
Message-ID: <F2C29ABA4D75714AAFC89187D9D8F293A6E343@THUNDERBIRD.usa.Arm.com>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org 
> [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org] On Behalf Of Bill Washington
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 6:26 PM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: [Diy_efi] Water injection
> 
> Gents,
>     One idea I have had for a while, but never figured out a 
> way to implement is o try using an ultrasonic 'fogger' to 
> produce a fog of tiny droplets which can then be fed into the 
> intake manifold .... any thoughts?

It's in the archives :-)

I have an ultrasonic humidifier, it uses 1/2 gallon of water overnight,
so doesn't produce that much water vapor.  But maybe you could make/find
a more vigorous one.

--steve

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From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 00:54:32 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:54:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] OT: Linear actuators.
In-Reply-To: <480ee3hvc5a7porgnbknfsnfa80qvrifnm@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <156673.7097.qm@web50310.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Yates <tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> where are you located?
> 
> You can stop by my office and browse my shelf of
> catalogs and we can
> work something out....if you're in So-Cal.   I have
> several sources
> from Manufacturers for linear motion systems.

Weiser, Idaho. Bit of a trip to So-Cal. ;) Now I need
to dig out one of the old top cylinders and measure
its retracted and extended lengths.


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 02:23:23 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:23:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: [jyturbo] No drag racing tomorrow - tubo shot -
	baghhhh!
In-Reply-To: <065c01c7f4e6$a4ea9180$2000a8c0@yancey.com>
Message-ID: <384151.39929.qm@web50302.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


--- David Allen <davida1 at hiwaay.net> wrote:

>   Damn that sucks.  I really hate to hear that!!!!!
> As for the bearings, I would not worry.  The metal
> from failed turbo 
> bearings is fine enough that it should not pose a
> problem. Just change the 
> oil and filter, and replace/ repair the turbo.

Or replace the turbo, fix up the old one and build a
jet engine out of it... ;) Lots of those on the web.


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From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 02:35:16 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:35:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
In-Reply-To: <F2C29ABA4D75714AAFC89187D9D8F293A6E33F@THUNDERBIRD.usa.Arm.com>
Message-ID: <802068.57603.qm@web50301.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Steve Ravet <Steve.Ravet at arm.com> wrote:

> Hi Jim, sounds like a good project you've got going
> there. 
> 
> > Now, my questions.  
> 
> For some reason the DIY list has always favored GM. 
> There's never been
> a poll to see what people like, but most of the
> discussion of factory
> systems has been GM, probably followed next by
> Bosch.  I'm not sure why
> that is, I know there are Ford hackers.  If there
> are any Ford guys here
> you should decloak more often!  anyway...

A lot of that's because Ford only briefly flirted with
throttle body injection in the 80's before going
multiport on everything.

Then there's that rather annoying street rodder idea
that 99.999% of all Ford 'rods MUST have a Chevy
smallblock dropped into them. Gahhhh! I've even seen
one with adaptors fabricated to mount Ford valve
covers to a Chevy 350.

If you want to TBI a Ford, there's only about three
options. Find a rare 80's Ford with the same engine
with TBI and grab all the parts or just the throttle
body and build a Megasquirt or something, throw a
large wad of money at a Holley setup to go in place of
the carb, or throw a large wad of money at one of the
many companies selling a GM TBI conversion (or do a
Megasquirt with GM throttle body)... I guess that's
four options. ;)

Another reason Ford engines aren't as popular for
hotting up as are Chevy is the aftermarket likes to
charge more $$$ for the equivalent parts for Ford.
I've seen a FEW magazine ads where things like pistons
and rods were the same price for a 350 chev and 351
Ford, but that's *extremely rare*. They claim they
have to charge more for Ford parts because they're not
as popular.

Bah! Ford engines aren't as popular because it costs
more to hop them up! :P (See also the popularity of
pepperoni pizza VS it almost always being on sale or
special price. If it was some *other* topping that was
most often the cheapest, pepperoni wouldn't be the
most popular.)


       
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From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 02:39:52 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:39:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Water injection
In-Reply-To: <F2C29ABA4D75714AAFC89187D9D8F293A6E343@THUNDERBIRD.usa.Arm.com>
Message-ID: <931624.90173.qm@web50306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- Steve Ravet <Steve.Ravet at arm.com> wrote:

> I have an ultrasonic humidifier, it uses 1/2 gallon
> of water overnight,
> so doesn't produce that much water vapor.  But maybe
> you could make/find a more vigorous one.

Look up mist fountains. They use an ultrasonic
transducer (one to 8 or more) which somehow makes the
water form up into a small column about 1" tall by
about 1/4" diameter. From the top of that column the
water vaporizes into a cool fog.

DO NOT place any part of your body within that water
column or anywhere within about 1" above its top. A
friend of mine got one of the one transducer fountains
and when I read that warning he just had to stick his
finger in it. He got a small and rather painful bruise
for his dumbness.


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From niche at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 12 02:55:21 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:55:21 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Water injection
In-Reply-To: <931624.90173.qm@web50306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <F2C29ABA4D75714AAFC89187D9D8F293A6E343@THUNDERBIRD.usa.Arm.com>
	<931624.90173.qm@web50306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070912154848.027c39b0@iinet.net.au>>

At 03:39 PM 9/12/07, you wrote:
>DO NOT place any part of your body within that water
>column or anywhere within about 1" above its top. A
>friend of mine got one of the one transducer fountains
>and when I read that warning he just had to stick his
>finger in it. He got a small and rather painful bruise
>for his dumbness.

Awe shucks, I use my industrial ultrasonic cleaner to clean/tidy
up my finger nails all the time, well I might add, last time I found
my index finger is was pretty clean  ;-)

We had a 400W ultrasonic cleaner at work back in mid 1980's
and one bright spark, a guy from the shop floor who was used to
welding up big plates for hydraulic presses, took his quad throat
carby (V8) out one day and dropped it in the cleaner with a little
mild soap and water, he set the timer to max, which was about
4 hrs or so, came back in the late afternoon and went ballistic
complaining someone had stolen his nice carby, all that were
left were slushy oxides and a few metal linkages, in those days
thats $500 worth of carby returned to its natural state, it took a
long time of explaining that no one had pinched it. Though for
some months afterwards he always gave use suspicious sideways
glances <sigh> Trying to tell him alluminium always has protective
oxide and ultrasonics disturb that just didnt go down well <sigh>


From spyro at f2s.com  Wed Sep 12 06:55:06 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:55:06 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: [jyturbo] No drag racing tomorrow - tubo shot -
	baghhhh!
In-Reply-To: <065c01c7f4e6$a4ea9180$2000a8c0@yancey.com>
References: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEEEHIKCAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
	<065c01c7f4e6$a4ea9180$2000a8c0@yancey.com>
Message-ID: <1189598107.2592.115.camel@wirenth>

On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 21:43 -0500, David Allen wrote:
> Damn that sucks.  I really hate to hear that!!!!!

I'll add my tale of turbo failure woe...

Mine died simply of old age, the oil seal on the intake side failed.

thing is though, I run a diesel. I got to find out just how tough the
little 1.0 motors bottom end was...

After spotting the blueness following me at ~70MPH down the motorway (in
the innermost lane no less, it rapidly turned into a blackness (like, 2
seconds) that covered all three lanes so densly that I couldnt see
anything in the mirrors.

Pulled over (praying nothing was dumb enough to undertake) and doing so
put my foot on the clutch (as one does when changing down etc.)

__BIG__ mistake.

remember, its a diesel... no load + infinte supply of nicely splattered
(by the turbo compressor) oil in the intake = RPM skyrocket.

it pegged the rev counter (which, incidentally no loger works and todays
project is to bodge in an incompatible module from another motor).

Redline for this engine *new* is 5k RPM (but realistically, this motor
runs into oil starvation much beyond 4200RPM and its powerband really
doenst go past 3800 RPM anyway).

pegging the revcounter put the RPM over 8k... for about 20 seconds
before I got the wherewithall to stall the thing.

Im *stunned* that it didnt seize.

that was almost two years ago, and other than changing the oil, the
filter, and replacing the turbo (and glowplugs, which were totally burnt
away by the preignition), I've done _nothing_ to the bottom end or
pistons. the bores were smooth and it turned freely.


Anyhow, if my 20 year old, 1 litre diesel can take that on the chin, Im
sure a more modern petrol can handle it :)




From spyro at f2s.com  Wed Sep 12 06:57:37 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:57:37 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Water injection
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20070912154848.027c39b0@iinet.net.au>>
References: <F2C29ABA4D75714AAFC89187D9D8F293A6E343@THUNDERBIRD.usa.Arm.com>
	<931624.90173.qm@web50306.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<7.0.1.0.0.20070912154848.027c39b0@iinet.net.au>>
Message-ID: <1189598257.2592.117.camel@wirenth>

On Wed, 2007-09-12 at 15:55 +0800, Mike wrote:
> came back in the late afternoon and went ballistic
> complaining someone had stolen his nice carby 

ROTFLMAO :-) 



From davida1 at hiwaay.net  Wed Sep 12 07:26:06 2007
From: davida1 at hiwaay.net (David Allen)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:26:06 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: [jyturbo] No drag racing tomorrow - tubo shot
	-baghhhh!
References: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEEEHIKCAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com><065c01c7f4e6$a4ea9180$2000a8c0@yancey.com>
	<1189598107.2592.115.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <069201c7f538$19d32470$2000a8c0@yancey.com>

  Now that is scarey talking runaway diesel engines!  Thankfully on my turbo 
failure the intercooler caught all the chips, and what little oil was lost.
  Favorite quote from my South African friend: "The engine does not 'run 
away,'  it revvs up.  The MECHANIC is what runs away!"
Later,
David

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ian" <spyro at f2s.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: [jyturbo] No drag racing tomorrow - tubo 
shot -baghhhh!


> On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 21:43 -0500, David Allen wrote:
>> Damn that sucks.  I really hate to hear that!!!!!
>
> I'll add my tale of turbo failure woe...
>
> Mine died simply of old age, the oil seal on the intake side failed.
>
> thing is though, I run a diesel. I got to find out just how tough the
> little 1.0 motors bottom end was...
>
> After spotting the blueness following me at ~70MPH down the motorway (in
> the innermost lane no less, it rapidly turned into a blackness (like, 2
> seconds) that covered all three lanes so densly that I couldnt see
> anything in the mirrors.
>
> Pulled over (praying nothing was dumb enough to undertake) and doing so
> put my foot on the clutch (as one does when changing down etc.)
>
> __BIG__ mistake.
>
> remember, its a diesel... no load + infinte supply of nicely splattered
> (by the turbo compressor) oil in the intake = RPM skyrocket.
>
> it pegged the rev counter (which, incidentally no loger works and todays
> project is to bodge in an incompatible module from another motor).
>
> Redline for this engine *new* is 5k RPM (but realistically, this motor
> runs into oil starvation much beyond 4200RPM and its powerband really
> doenst go past 3800 RPM anyway).
>
> pegging the revcounter put the RPM over 8k... for about 20 seconds
> before I got the wherewithall to stall the thing.
>
> Im *stunned* that it didnt seize.
>
> that was almost two years ago, and other than changing the oil, the
> filter, and replacing the turbo (and glowplugs, which were totally burnt
> away by the preignition), I've done _nothing_ to the bottom end or
> pistons. the bores were smooth and it turned freely.
>
>
> Anyhow, if my 20 year old, 1 litre diesel can take that on the chin, Im
> sure a more modern petrol can handle it :)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 



From niche at iinet.net.au  Wed Sep 12 07:46:20 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 20:46:20 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: [jyturbo] No drag racing tomorrow - tubo
	shot -baghhhh!
In-Reply-To: <069201c7f538$19d32470$2000a8c0@yancey.com>
References: <KMEGIPPMDGHIFFAKGOLEEEHIKCAA.A6intruder@myo-p.com>
	<065c01c7f4e6$a4ea9180$2000a8c0@yancey.com>
	<1189598107.2592.115.camel@wirenth>
	<069201c7f538$19d32470$2000a8c0@yancey.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070912204156.027c1320@iinet.net.au>>

At 08:26 PM 9/12/07, you wrote:
> Now that is scarey talking runaway diesel engines!  Thankfully on my turbo failure the intercooler caught all the chips, and what little oil was lost.
> Favorite quote from my South African friend: "The engine does not 'run away,'  it revvs up.  The MECHANIC is what runs away!"

haha, yeah I heard something similar, guys in Malaysia started up an old marine diesel and it
sort of ran ok for several  minutes, then slowed down, almost stalled, then sped up, started to go
a bit too fast so they cut the fuel, it slowed down, then sped up again, they look at each other
while checking the fuel valve, then panicked and stuffed a Kopec bag in the air inlet, it swallowed
the bag spat it out the exhaust, slowed down then sped up again, they were starting to freak out,
 how the f..k could this be and one guy finally dropped his pants and sat on the air inlet !

This eventually stopped it, dont ask me how ;)

Turned out the rings had set in the bores and there was enough crank oil getting past the hot
engine to keep it going, weird bit of almost 2-stroke dynamics there  :P

mike






>Later,
>David
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "ian" <spyro at f2s.com>
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 6:55 AM
>Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Re: [jyturbo] No drag racing tomorrow - tubo shot -baghhhh!
>
>
>>On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 21:43 -0500, David Allen wrote:
>>>Damn that sucks.  I really hate to hear that!!!!!
>>
>>I'll add my tale of turbo failure woe...
>>
>>Mine died simply of old age, the oil seal on the intake side failed.
>>
>>thing is though, I run a diesel. I got to find out just how tough the
>>little 1.0 motors bottom end was...
>>
>>After spotting the blueness following me at ~70MPH down the motorway (in
>>the innermost lane no less, it rapidly turned into a blackness (like, 2
>>seconds) that covered all three lanes so densly that I couldnt see
>>anything in the mirrors.
>>
>>Pulled over (praying nothing was dumb enough to undertake) and doing so
>>put my foot on the clutch (as one does when changing down etc.)
>>
>>__BIG__ mistake.
>>
>>remember, its a diesel... no load + infinte supply of nicely splattered
>>(by the turbo compressor) oil in the intake = RPM skyrocket.
>>
>>it pegged the rev counter (which, incidentally no loger works and todays
>>project is to bodge in an incompatible module from another motor).
>>
>>Redline for this engine *new* is 5k RPM (but realistically, this motor
>>runs into oil starvation much beyond 4200RPM and its powerband really
>>doenst go past 3800 RPM anyway).
>>
>>pegging the revcounter put the RPM over 8k... for about 20 seconds
>>before I got the wherewithall to stall the thing.
>>
>>Im *stunned* that it didnt seize.
>>
>>that was almost two years ago, and other than changing the oil, the
>>filter, and replacing the turbo (and glowplugs, which were totally burnt
>>away by the preignition), I've done _nothing_ to the bottom end or
>>pistons. the bores were smooth and it turned freely.
>>
>>
>>Anyhow, if my 20 year old, 1 litre diesel can take that on the chin, Im
>>sure a more modern petrol can handle it :)
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Diy_efi mailing list
>>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au


From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Wed Sep 12 10:40:27 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:40:27 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
In-Reply-To: <000001c7f18d$25e62130$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F94866136@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

Very cool Project. I found that working with the EEC IV was not  as bad as I thought it would be.
I helped a guy put a 3.0 L V6 Ford in his 1947 8N tractor. No Vss signal and it runs great.
I had to make a orifice plate for the IAC to get the idle down for his non sycro trans. I also made a remote mount heat sink for the TFI module it was getting to hot on the distributor and
shutting down the engine. Pictures on on the twki site . I think your right about the injector placement causing problems. Keep us posted and send some pic's if you can. 


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:25 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Hello, I haven' posted anything on this site since Jan 07.  I see some
fantastic knowledge of EFI systems in the folks posting on this site and
wonder if I can beg for some free advice on several points
 
I transplanted the EEC-IV system, including the distributorless
ignition, from a '92 Ford 1.9 onto my '71 MGB 1.8.  I had to make
several parts, including an intake manifold from scratch, and adapt the
wire harness, etc.  It is quite drivable, except for hesitation when you
hit the throttle, even though I have not touched the program in the ECU.
The fact that the ECU program works as well as it does shows how
adaptable the MAF system is, as discussed in other comments on this
site.  I can see that it is going lean during acceleration by watching
the voltage out of the O2 sensor.  I also manually injected a little
extra gas during acceleration and was able to make the hesitation go
away.
 
I am not pursuing any great improvement in power, just trying to get the
instant starting, warmup and drive-away performance we all take for
granted in EFI cars.  I like the look and sound of an old British
roadster, and am happy with keeping nostalgic things like solid lifters
that always tick a little, but can do without the issues that come with
35 year old dual carbs, a manual choke, and the Lucas points ignition
system. 
This engine has two pairs of siamesed intakes.  Since my EEC is from a
sequential injection engine, I put all 4 injectors together in the
center of the manifold so it is working more like a throttle body
injection system.   
 
Now, my questions.  
 
1.	I assume I need to change some parameters in the EEC to tune
this setup properly - my displacement is different by 5%, my manifold
volume is much smaller, my injectors are wetting the manifold instead of
the intake valves, etc.  I see Tweecers and other gadgets advertised on
the web, but it is not too clear what they can do.  Is the Advantage 3.x
that was discussed here a couple of weeks ago the best (cheapest?) way
to see what this EEC is doing and change the settings? 
2.	There was a discussion of the EEC-V and it is obviously newer
and more capable.  Might it be worth my time (and $) to convert my
system to an EEC-V system off a '96 or later Ford 1.9, and do my tuning
on that? 
3.	I have all the sensors including the Vehicle Speed Sensor
connected to the harness, so my check-engine light goes off, but I do
not have the VSS connected to the speedo cable.  If I understand
correctly (mainly from the Probst book on Ford EFI), VSS is used for
economy and emissions purposes, like cutting off fuel during
deceleration.  Is there any reason I should build an adapter so it can
see actual vehicle speed? 
Thanks in advance for any help.
 
Jim in Ohio
 
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From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Wed Sep 12 12:45:30 2007
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:45:30 EDT
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: [jyturbo] No drag racing tomorrow - tubo shot
	-baghhhh!
Message-ID: <cc4.1b07d2c7.34197fba@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/12/2007 5:48:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
niche at iinet.net.au writes:

haha,  yeah I heard something similar, guys in Malaysia started up an old 
marine  diesel and it
sort of ran ok for several  minutes, then slowed down,  almost stalled, then 
sped up, started to go
a bit too fast so they cut the  fuel, it slowed down, then sped up again, 
they look at each other
while  checking the fuel valve, then panicked and stuffed a Kopec bag in the 
air  inlet, it swallowed
the bag spat it out the exhaust, slowed down then sped  up again, they were 
starting to freak out,
how the f..k could this be and  one guy finally dropped his pants and sat on 
the air inlet  !



Yeah, but what did it do to his private parts?
 
Scotty from Hollyweird



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net  Wed Sep 12 13:46:09 2007
From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 11:46:09 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: [jyturbo] No drag racing tomorrow - tubo shot
	-baghhhh!
In-Reply-To: <cc4.1b07d2c7.34197fba@aol.com>
References: <cc4.1b07d2c7.34197fba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <pscge39ig3fkgcm0pl5qlh8b68geu5fthb@4ax.com>

assuming they were malaysian nothing happened to their private
parts...

Mike


On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:45:30 EDT, you wrote:

> 
>In a message dated 9/12/2007 5:48:59 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
>niche at iinet.net.au writes:
>
>haha,  yeah I heard something similar, guys in Malaysia started up an old 
>marine  diesel and it
>sort of ran ok for several  minutes, then slowed down,  almost stalled, then 
>sped up, started to go
>a bit too fast so they cut the  fuel, it slowed down, then sped up again, 
>they look at each other
>while  checking the fuel valve, then panicked and stuffed a Kopec bag in the 
>air  inlet, it swallowed
>the bag spat it out the exhaust, slowed down then sped  up again, they were 
>starting to freak out,
>how the f..k could this be and  one guy finally dropped his pants and sat on 
>the air inlet  !
>
>
>
>Yeah, but what did it do to his private parts?
> 
>Scotty from Hollyweird
>
>
>
>************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
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From WSCowell at aol.com  Wed Sep 12 14:01:32 2007
From: WSCowell at aol.com (WSCowell at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:01:32 EDT
Subject: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
Message-ID: <d1a.1486d1e4.3419918c@aol.com>

When I was serving in Germany in 1979 as an engineering officer in the  
British Army, we had an interesting blow-up with a tank engine at our  Workshop 
unit in Soest.
 
It was an L60, used to power the Chieftain battle tank.  The L60 has 6  
cylinders side by side in line, and 2 crankshafts at opposite ends of the  
cylinders driving 6 opposed pairs of pistons a la Junkers Jumo aero  engine.  The 
engine is multi-fuel, and usually ran on diesel.  It had  a massive Roots type 
scavenge blower strapped to the side of the  crankcase.
 
This engine was on test but the exhaust wasn't coupled up properly and  
consequently the exhaust gases were getting into the test cell, which was a  closed 
room at the end of the engine repair shop.  The blower intake wasn't  coupled 
up to a source of clean intake air (sloppy mistake No.2!!) and breathed  the 
ambient air inside the test cell.
 
All was well until an oil seal failed, whereupon oil mist started to appear  
in the exhaust and, yes, you've guessed, sucked back into the intake.
 
The revs started to rise, the crew panicked and shut down the fuel supply  
but it was too late, the engine went into runaway and the revs went through the  
roof as the engine digested its crankcase oil supply.  The entire test cell  
filled with a combustible oil mist and it became a giant combustion  chamber.
 
After about 30 seconds stoichiometric mixture was reached, and the entire  
chamber (room) blew.  It took out the internal walls, every window down the  
repair shop and cracked both end walls of the repair shop building from floor to  
ceiling!  By this time everyone had legged it so no-one was hurt, but the  
Board of Inquiry had a field day.
 
Never a dull moment in the military...
 
Will C



   


From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Wed Sep 12 14:18:16 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:18:16 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
In-Reply-To: <d1a.1486d1e4.3419918c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F94866138@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

Thanks for an amazing story. That is the first engine test story where the dyno room was consumed
instead of the engine under test.  

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of WSCowell at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:02 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?


When I was serving in Germany in 1979 as an engineering officer in the  
British Army, we had an interesting blow-up with a tank engine at our  Workshop 
unit in Soest.
 
It was an L60, used to power the Chieftain battle tank.  The L60 has 6  
cylinders side by side in line, and 2 crankshafts at opposite ends of the  
cylinders driving 6 opposed pairs of pistons a la Junkers Jumo aero  engine.  The 
engine is multi-fuel, and usually ran on diesel.  It had  a massive Roots type 
scavenge blower strapped to the side of the  crankcase.
 
This engine was on test but the exhaust wasn't coupled up properly and  
consequently the exhaust gases were getting into the test cell, which was a  closed 
room at the end of the engine repair shop.  The blower intake wasn't  coupled 
up to a source of clean intake air (sloppy mistake No.2!!) and breathed  the 
ambient air inside the test cell.
 
All was well until an oil seal failed, whereupon oil mist started to appear  
in the exhaust and, yes, you've guessed, sucked back into the intake.
 
The revs started to rise, the crew panicked and shut down the fuel supply  
but it was too late, the engine went into runaway and the revs went through the  
roof as the engine digested its crankcase oil supply.  The entire test cell  
filled with a combustible oil mist and it became a giant combustion  chamber.
 
After about 30 seconds stoichiometric mixture was reached, and the entire  
chamber (room) blew.  It took out the internal walls, every window down the  
repair shop and cracked both end walls of the repair shop building from floor to  
ceiling!  By this time everyone had legged it so no-one was hurt, but the  
Board of Inquiry had a field day.
 
Never a dull moment in the military...
 
Will C



   
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-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies. 
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
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dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
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Thank You.
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From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net  Wed Sep 12 14:35:56 2007
From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 12:35:56 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
In-Reply-To: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F94866138@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
References: <d1a.1486d1e4.3419918c@aol.com>
	<F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F94866138@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
Message-ID: <ujfge3hhmi73ui278bd5uu7hv9t70kbv5b@4ax.com>

I got a call from a friend from down under the other day yelling about
a blown BBC with like 50 psi of boost and about 90psig (50
differential Pressure) of fuel...any way the injectors started to
puull out on the dyno and the room filled with gas mist. By the time
it was realized what was happening, something sparked, He said it blew
off the steel roof of the dyno room. oops....

I know not related but still humorous,,,atleast from here.

Mike


On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:18:16 -0500, you wrote:

>Thanks for an amazing story. That is the first engine test story where the dyno room was consumed
>instead of the engine under test.  
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
>Behalf Of WSCowell at aol.com
>Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:02 PM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
>
>
>When I was serving in Germany in 1979 as an engineering officer in the  
>British Army, we had an interesting blow-up with a tank engine at our  Workshop 
>unit in Soest.
> 
>It was an L60, used to power the Chieftain battle tank.  The L60 has 6  
>cylinders side by side in line, and 2 crankshafts at opposite ends of the  
>cylinders driving 6 opposed pairs of pistons a la Junkers Jumo aero  engine.  The 
>engine is multi-fuel, and usually ran on diesel.  It had  a massive Roots type 
>scavenge blower strapped to the side of the  crankcase.
> 
>This engine was on test but the exhaust wasn't coupled up properly and  
>consequently the exhaust gases were getting into the test cell, which was a  closed 
>room at the end of the engine repair shop.  The blower intake wasn't  coupled 
>up to a source of clean intake air (sloppy mistake No.2!!) and breathed  the 
>ambient air inside the test cell.
> 
>All was well until an oil seal failed, whereupon oil mist started to appear  
>in the exhaust and, yes, you've guessed, sucked back into the intake.
> 
>The revs started to rise, the crew panicked and shut down the fuel supply  
>but it was too late, the engine went into runaway and the revs went through the  
>roof as the engine digested its crankcase oil supply.  The entire test cell  
>filled with a combustible oil mist and it became a giant combustion  chamber.
> 
>After about 30 seconds stoichiometric mixture was reached, and the entire  
>chamber (room) blew.  It took out the internal walls, every window down the  
>repair shop and cracked both end walls of the repair shop building from floor to  
>ceiling!  By this time everyone had legged it so no-one was hurt, but the  
>Board of Inquiry had a field day.
> 
>Never a dull moment in the military...
> 
>Will C
>
>
>
>   
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>-----------------------------------------
>**************************************************
>This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
>Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
>confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
>Corporation family of Companies. 
>This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
>entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
>recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
>dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
>to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
>prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
>in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
>delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
>Thank You.
>**************************************************
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From ScottyGrover at aol.com  Wed Sep 12 15:11:14 2007
From: ScottyGrover at aol.com (ScottyGrover at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:11:14 EDT
Subject: [Diy_efi] Re: [jyturbo] No drag racing tomorrow - tubo shot
	-baghhhh!
Message-ID: <be1.1da5987a.3419a1e2@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 9/12/2007 11:47:21 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net writes:

assuming  they were malaysian nothing happened to their  private
parts...

Mike


On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:45:30 EDT,  you wrote:

> 
>In a message dated 9/12/2007 5:48:59 A.M.  Pacific Daylight Time,  
>niche at iinet.net.au  writes:
>
>haha,  yeah I heard something similar, guys in  Malaysia started up an old 
>marine  diesel and it
>sort of  ran ok for several  minutes, then slowed down,  almost stalled, 
then  
>sped up, started to go
>a bit too fast so they cut the   fuel, it slowed down, then sped up again, 
>they look at each  other
>while  checking the fuel valve, then panicked and stuffed a  Kopec bag in 
the 
>air  inlet, it swallowed
>the bag spat it  out the exhaust, slowed down then sped  up again, they were 
 
>starting to freak out,
>how the f..k could this be and  one  guy finally dropped his pants and sat 
on 
>the air inlet   !
>
>
>
>Yeah, but what did it do to his private  parts?
> 
>Scotty from  Hollyweird
>
>



Are you implying that because he was Malaysian, he didn't have any private  
parts?
 
Scotty from Hollyweird



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Wed Sep 12 15:16:55 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:16:55 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
In-Reply-To: <ujfge3hhmi73ui278bd5uu7hv9t70kbv5b@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486613A@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

That kinda settles the question of should I build a dyno cell or just run it on the open floor.

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Mike Yates
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:36 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?


I got a call from a friend from down under the other day yelling about
a blown BBC with like 50 psi of boost and about 90psig (50
differential Pressure) of fuel...any way the injectors started to
puull out on the dyno and the room filled with gas mist. By the time
it was realized what was happening, something sparked, He said it blew
off the steel roof of the dyno room. oops....

I know not related but still humorous,,,atleast from here.

Mike


On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:18:16 -0500, you wrote:

>Thanks for an amazing story. That is the first engine test story where the dyno room was consumed
>instead of the engine under test.  
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
>Behalf Of WSCowell at aol.com
>Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 2:02 PM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
>
>
>When I was serving in Germany in 1979 as an engineering officer in the  
>British Army, we had an interesting blow-up with a tank engine at our  Workshop 
>unit in Soest.
> 
>It was an L60, used to power the Chieftain battle tank.  The L60 has 6  
>cylinders side by side in line, and 2 crankshafts at opposite ends of the  
>cylinders driving 6 opposed pairs of pistons a la Junkers Jumo aero  engine.  The 
>engine is multi-fuel, and usually ran on diesel.  It had  a massive Roots type 
>scavenge blower strapped to the side of the  crankcase.
> 
>This engine was on test but the exhaust wasn't coupled up properly and  
>consequently the exhaust gases were getting into the test cell, which was a  closed 
>room at the end of the engine repair shop.  The blower intake wasn't  coupled 
>up to a source of clean intake air (sloppy mistake No.2!!) and breathed  the 
>ambient air inside the test cell.
> 
>All was well until an oil seal failed, whereupon oil mist started to appear  
>in the exhaust and, yes, you've guessed, sucked back into the intake.
> 
>The revs started to rise, the crew panicked and shut down the fuel supply  
>but it was too late, the engine went into runaway and the revs went through the  
>roof as the engine digested its crankcase oil supply.  The entire test cell  
>filled with a combustible oil mist and it became a giant combustion  chamber.
> 
>After about 30 seconds stoichiometric mixture was reached, and the entire  
>chamber (room) blew.  It took out the internal walls, every window down the  
>repair shop and cracked both end walls of the repair shop building from floor to  
>ceiling!  By this time everyone had legged it so no-one was hurt, but the  
>Board of Inquiry had a field day.
> 
>Never a dull moment in the military...
> 
>Will C
>
>
>
>   
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>-----------------------------------------
>**************************************************
>This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
>Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
>confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
>Corporation family of Companies. 
>This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
>entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
>recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
>dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
>to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
>prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
>in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
>delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
>Thank You.
>**************************************************
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

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Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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From ebuckler at icehouse.net  Wed Sep 12 16:25:01 2007
From: ebuckler at icehouse.net (Ernest Buckler)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:25:01 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Another dyno-room story, FMC/Bradley
Message-ID: <026901c7f583$61354370$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>

I heard this story when I worked at FMC in San Jose on the Bradley Fighting Vehicle prototype program:

There was a requirement for this 25 ton fast (55mph) armored vehicle to make water crossings deeper than hull depth, so one thought was to make the engine capable of runnig underwater.  Snorkel was the obvious solution but some bright fellows decided that running the 500 hp compound-turbo-supercharged Cummins V-12 diesel with decomposed H202 (high-purity hydrogen peroxide) would provide adequate oxidizer if it were sprayed through a catalyst consisting of a silver screen in the intake plumbing. (This is how the one-man ultra-light helos work)   When it exploded in the all-steel-walled dyno cell (fortunately a bldg set up for just this purpose off by itself), all four walls were completely flattened, and the Cummins block was fractured totally in half.    Really wish I had been there (having recently come from Edwards AFB Rocket Test Base, thus was accustomed to big booms and exploding test cells, heh.  Flourine and Boron makes a REAL big bang, for one example.).  In the end they settled on canvas side panels rigged above the hull to give minimal freeboard; with careful weight management, the Bradley FV would pass the water crossing test  - tho one test driver proved that any kind of rough water was lethal, by dying in a pond test gone bad on FMC property. And of course the canvas sides were rigged outside, totally vulnerable to shrapnel and small-arms fire.  Might as well mention too that the other smart move made in that project was to delete the gasoline-fueled dirt bike that initially was standard equipment inside the Cavalry Recon version - somebody finally figured out that a 4 gal. gas tank was nothing more than an internal fire-bomb, should they take a penetrating hit.  There was some minimal effort to come up with a diesel-powered replacement for the bike, but the diesel KX650 did not exist at the time.

Ernest B.

From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Wed Sep 12 16:55:12 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:55:12 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Another dyno-room story, FMC/Bradley
In-Reply-To: <026901c7f583$61354370$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486613B@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

This is great stuff they get better and better. Do they now have a Diesel Bike ?

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Ernest Buckler
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:25 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] Another dyno-room story, FMC/Bradley


I heard this story when I worked at FMC in San Jose on the Bradley Fighting Vehicle prototype program:

There was a requirement for this 25 ton fast (55mph) armored vehicle to make water crossings deeper than hull depth, so one thought was to make the engine capable of runnig underwater.  Snorkel was the obvious solution but some bright fellows decided that running the 500 hp compound-turbo-supercharged Cummins V-12 diesel with decomposed H202 (high-purity hydrogen peroxide) would provide adequate oxidizer if it were sprayed through a catalyst consisting of a silver screen in the intake plumbing. (This is how the one-man ultra-light helos work)   When it exploded in the all-steel-walled dyno cell (fortunately a bldg set up for just this purpose off by itself), all four walls were completely flattened, and the Cummins block was fractured totally in half.    Really wish I had been there (having recently come from Edwards AFB Rocket Test Base, thus was accustomed to big booms and exploding test cells, heh.  Flourine and Boron makes a REAL big bang, for one example.).  In the end they settled on canvas side panels rigged above the hull to give minimal freeboard; with careful weight management, the Bradley FV would pass the water crossing test  - tho one test driver proved that any kind of rough water was lethal, by dying in a pond test gone bad on FMC property. And of course the canvas sides were rigged outside, totally vulnerable to shrapnel and small-arms fire.  Might as well mention too that the other smart move made in that project was to delete the gasoline-fueled dirt bike that initially was standard equipment inside the Cavalry Recon version - somebody finally figured out that a 4 gal. gas tank was nothing more than an internal fire-bomb, should they take a penetrating hit.  There was some minimal effort to come up with a diesel-powered replacement for the bike, but the diesel KX650 did not exist at the time.

Ernest B.
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Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies. 
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
Thank You.
**************************************************


From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net  Wed Sep 12 16:56:55 2007
From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:56:55 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] Another dyno-room story, FMC/Bradley
In-Reply-To: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486613B@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
References: <026901c7f583$61354370$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
	<F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486613B@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
Message-ID: <t3oge3tpcbqf7ql9d5e7gigiodaukn7m42@4ax.com>

YES...not sure if it is stateside yet though...one of my employees
wants one bad....i can't figure out why though.

Mike

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 16:55:12 -0500, you wrote:

>This is great stuff they get better and better. Do they now have a Diesel Bike ?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
>Behalf Of Ernest Buckler
>Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 4:25 PM
>To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subject: [Diy_efi] Another dyno-room story, FMC/Bradley
>
>
>I heard this story when I worked at FMC in San Jose on the Bradley Fighting Vehicle prototype program:
>
>There was a requirement for this 25 ton fast (55mph) armored vehicle to make water crossings deeper than hull depth, so one thought was to make the engine capable of runnig underwater.  Snorkel was the obvious solution but some bright fellows decided that running the 500 hp compound-turbo-supercharged Cummins V-12 diesel with decomposed H202 (high-purity hydrogen peroxide) would provide adequate oxidizer if it were sprayed through a catalyst consisting of a silver screen in the intake plumbing. (This is how the one-man ultra-light helos work)   When it exploded in the all-steel-walled dyno cell (fortunately a bldg set up for just this purpose off by itself), all four walls were completely flattened, and the Cummins block was fractured totally in half.    Really wish I had been there (having recently come from Edwards AFB Rocket Test Base, thus was accustomed to big booms and exploding test cells, heh.  Flourine and Boron makes a REAL big bang, for one example.).  In the end they
>settled on canvas side panels rigged above the hull to give minimal freeboard; with careful weight management, the Bradley FV would pass the water crossing test  - tho one test driver proved that any kind of rough water was lethal, by dying in a pond test gone bad on FMC property. And of course the canvas sides were rigged outside, totally vulnerable to shrapnel and small-arms fire.  Might as well mention too that the other smart move made in that project was to delete the gasoline-fueled dirt bike that initially was standard equipment inside the Cavalry Recon version - somebody finally figured out that a 4 gal. gas tank was nothing more than an internal fire-bomb, should they take a penetrating hit.  There was some minimal effort to come up with a diesel-powered replacement for the bike, but the diesel KX650 did not exist at the time.
>
>Ernest B.
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>-----------------------------------------
>**************************************************
>This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
>Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
>confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
>Corporation family of Companies. 
>This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
>entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
>recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
>dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
>to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
>prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
>in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
>delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
>Thank You.
>**************************************************
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From spyro at f2s.com  Wed Sep 12 17:04:36 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:04:36 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Another dyno-room story, FMC/Bradley
In-Reply-To: <t3oge3tpcbqf7ql9d5e7gigiodaukn7m42@4ax.com>
References: <026901c7f583$61354370$0300a8c0@userc276844d8d>
	<F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486613B@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
	<t3oge3tpcbqf7ql9d5e7gigiodaukn7m42@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <1189634676.2592.130.camel@wirenth>

On Wed, 2007-09-12 at 14:56 -0700, Mike Yates wrote:
> YES...not sure if it is stateside yet though...one of my employees
> wants one bad....i can't figure out why though. 

I can think of a few reasons

1) 300MPG
2) loud as a motherfuck
3) novelty value



From frankmccracken at shaw.ca  Wed Sep 12 21:31:08 2007
From: frankmccracken at shaw.ca (Frank McCracken)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:31:08 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
References: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F94866136@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
Message-ID: <008001c7f5ae$263ec130$6401a8c0@flamingo>

Fyi , a 1947 is a 9n  :-)
I would like to see those pics. How do I find them?
Frank.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
To: <byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net>; <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Very cool Project. I found that working with the EEC IV was not  as bad as I
thought it would be.
I helped a guy put a 3.0 L V6 Ford in his 1947 8N tractor. No Vss signal and
it runs great.
I had to make a orifice plate for the IAC to get the idle down for his non
sycro trans. I also made a remote mount heat sink for the TFI module it was
getting to hot on the distributor and
shutting down the engine. Pictures on on the twki site . I think your right
about the injector placement causing problems. Keep us posted and send some
pic's if you can.


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:25 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Hello, I haven' posted anything on this site since Jan 07.  I see some
fantastic knowledge of EFI systems in the folks posting on this site and
wonder if I can beg for some free advice on several points

I transplanted the EEC-IV system, including the distributorless
ignition, from a '92 Ford 1.9 onto my '71 MGB 1.8.  I had to make
several parts, including an intake manifold from scratch, and adapt the
wire harness, etc.  It is quite drivable, except for hesitation when you
hit the throttle, even though I have not touched the program in the ECU.
The fact that the ECU program works as well as it does shows how
adaptable the MAF system is, as discussed in other comments on this
site.  I can see that it is going lean during acceleration by watching
the voltage out of the O2 sensor.  I also manually injected a little
extra gas during acceleration and was able to make the hesitation go
away.

I am not pursuing any great improvement in power, just trying to get the
instant starting, warmup and drive-away performance we all take for
granted in EFI cars.  I like the look and sound of an old British
roadster, and am happy with keeping nostalgic things like solid lifters
that always tick a little, but can do without the issues that come with
35 year old dual carbs, a manual choke, and the Lucas points ignition
system.
This engine has two pairs of siamesed intakes.  Since my EEC is from a
sequential injection engine, I put all 4 injectors together in the
center of the manifold so it is working more like a throttle body
injection system.

Now, my questions.

1. I assume I need to change some parameters in the EEC to tune
this setup properly - my displacement is different by 5%, my manifold
volume is much smaller, my injectors are wetting the manifold instead of
the intake valves, etc.  I see Tweecers and other gadgets advertised on
the web, but it is not too clear what they can do.  Is the Advantage 3.x
that was discussed here a couple of weeks ago the best (cheapest?) way
to see what this EEC is doing and change the settings?
2. There was a discussion of the EEC-V and it is obviously newer
and more capable.  Might it be worth my time (and $) to convert my
system to an EEC-V system off a '96 or later Ford 1.9, and do my tuning
on that?
3. I have all the sensors including the Vehicle Speed Sensor
connected to the harness, so my check-engine light goes off, but I do
not have the VSS connected to the speedo cable.  If I understand
correctly (mainly from the Probst book on Ford EFI), VSS is used for
economy and emissions purposes, like cutting off fuel during
deceleration.  Is there any reason I should build an adapter so it can
see actual vehicle speed?
Thanks in advance for any help.

Jim in Ohio

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
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-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies.
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
Thank You.
**************************************************
_______________________________________________
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Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.15/1003 - Release Date: 9/12/2007
10:56 AM




From g_alan_e at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 12 22:29:52 2007
From: g_alan_e at yahoo.com (Gregg Eshelman)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 20:29:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
In-Reply-To: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486613A@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
Message-ID: <351565.5799.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

--- don.broadus at exeloncorp.com wrote:

> That kinda settles the question of should I build a
> dyno cell or just run it on the open floor.

Plant some rebar deep in the floor, build a cement
block wall, fill the blocks with concrete, then have
the wall sprayed with Line-X all over.

Engine on one side, you and everything else on the
other.

Why Line-X? A few years back it was discovered that
spray on polyurethane pickup bed liner (such as
Line-X, they're the company that discovered this)
makes masonry walls darn near bomb proof- or at least
holds the chunks together so the wall doesn't fall
down.

There's a video out there showing a guy dropping a
Line-X covered concrete block off a building and the
block bounces.


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469


From niche at iinet.net.au  Thu Sep 13 00:54:08 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:54:08 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
In-Reply-To: <d1a.1486d1e4.3419918c@aol.com>
References: <d1a.1486d1e4.3419918c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070913135205.027d9920@iinet.net.au>>

Yes amazing incident,

these days I would guess that if you wanted an enclosed dyno room you would have
very good exhaust ventilation for the room as a whole and also just in case a large
burst relief panel or maybe part of the ceiling...

mike


At 03:01 AM 9/13/07, you wrote:
>When I was serving in Germany in 1979 as an engineering officer in the  
>British Army, we had an interesting blow-up with a tank engine at our  Workshop 
>unit in Soest.
> 
>It was an L60, used to power the Chieftain battle tank.  The L60 has 6  
>cylinders side by side in line, and 2 crankshafts at opposite ends of the  
>cylinders driving 6 opposed pairs of pistons a la Junkers Jumo aero  engine.  The 
>engine is multi-fuel, and usually ran on diesel.  It had  a massive Roots type 
>scavenge blower strapped to the side of the  crankcase.
> 
>This engine was on test but the exhaust wasn't coupled up properly and  
>consequently the exhaust gases were getting into the test cell, which was a  closed 
>room at the end of the engine repair shop.  The blower intake wasn't  coupled 
>up to a source of clean intake air (sloppy mistake No.2!!) and breathed  the 
>ambient air inside the test cell.
> 
>All was well until an oil seal failed, whereupon oil mist started to appear  
>in the exhaust and, yes, you've guessed, sucked back into the intake.
> 
>The revs started to rise, the crew panicked and shut down the fuel supply  
>but it was too late, the engine went into runaway and the revs went through the  
>roof as the engine digested its crankcase oil supply.  The entire test cell  
>filled with a combustible oil mist and it became a giant combustion  chamber.
> 
>After about 30 seconds stoichiometric mixture was reached, and the entire  
>chamber (room) blew.  It took out the internal walls, every window down the  
>repair shop and cracked both end walls of the repair shop building from floor to  
>ceiling!  By this time everyone had legged it so no-one was hurt, but the  
>Board of Inquiry had a field day.
> 
>Never a dull moment in the military...
> 
>Will C
>
>
>
>   
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Thu Sep 13 08:29:26 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:29:26 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
In-Reply-To: <351565.5799.qm@web50309.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486613D@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

That is good to know, got the Rhino lining on my truck, it's good stuff

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Gregg Eshelman
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 10:30 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?


--- don.broadus at exeloncorp.com wrote:

> That kinda settles the question of should I build a
> dyno cell or just run it on the open floor.

Plant some rebar deep in the floor, build a cement
block wall, fill the blocks with concrete, then have
the wall sprayed with Line-X all over.

Engine on one side, you and everything else on the
other.

Why Line-X? A few years back it was discovered that
spray on polyurethane pickup bed liner (such as
Line-X, they're the company that discovered this)
makes masonry walls darn near bomb proof- or at least
holds the chunks together so the wall doesn't fall
down.

There's a video out there showing a guy dropping a
Line-X covered concrete block off a building and the
block bounces.


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies. 
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
Thank You.
**************************************************


From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Thu Sep 13 10:12:05 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:12:05 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
In-Reply-To: <008001c7f5ae$263ec130$6401a8c0@flamingo>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F94866141@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

Hi Frank; he is a link that  Mike V. was kind enough to provide

http://www.enzoco.com/mike/8n/



-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Frank McCracken
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:31 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Fyi , a 1947 is a 9n  :-)
I would like to see those pics. How do I find them?
Frank.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
To: <byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net>; <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Very cool Project. I found that working with the EEC IV was not  as bad as I
thought it would be.
I helped a guy put a 3.0 L V6 Ford in his 1947 8N tractor. No Vss signal and
it runs great.
I had to make a orifice plate for the IAC to get the idle down for his non
sycro trans. I also made a remote mount heat sink for the TFI module it was
getting to hot on the distributor and
shutting down the engine. Pictures on on the twki site . I think your right
about the injector placement causing problems. Keep us posted and send some
pic's if you can.


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:25 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Hello, I haven' posted anything on this site since Jan 07.  I see some
fantastic knowledge of EFI systems in the folks posting on this site and
wonder if I can beg for some free advice on several points

I transplanted the EEC-IV system, including the distributorless
ignition, from a '92 Ford 1.9 onto my '71 MGB 1.8.  I had to make
several parts, including an intake manifold from scratch, and adapt the
wire harness, etc.  It is quite drivable, except for hesitation when you
hit the throttle, even though I have not touched the program in the ECU.
The fact that the ECU program works as well as it does shows how
adaptable the MAF system is, as discussed in other comments on this
site.  I can see that it is going lean during acceleration by watching
the voltage out of the O2 sensor.  I also manually injected a little
extra gas during acceleration and was able to make the hesitation go
away.

I am not pursuing any great improvement in power, just trying to get the
instant starting, warmup and drive-away performance we all take for
granted in EFI cars.  I like the look and sound of an old British
roadster, and am happy with keeping nostalgic things like solid lifters
that always tick a little, but can do without the issues that come with
35 year old dual carbs, a manual choke, and the Lucas points ignition
system.
This engine has two pairs of siamesed intakes.  Since my EEC is from a
sequential injection engine, I put all 4 injectors together in the
center of the manifold so it is working more like a throttle body
injection system.

Now, my questions.

1. I assume I need to change some parameters in the EEC to tune
this setup properly - my displacement is different by 5%, my manifold
volume is much smaller, my injectors are wetting the manifold instead of
the intake valves, etc.  I see Tweecers and other gadgets advertised on
the web, but it is not too clear what they can do.  Is the Advantage 3.x
that was discussed here a couple of weeks ago the best (cheapest?) way
to see what this EEC is doing and change the settings?
2. There was a discussion of the EEC-V and it is obviously newer
and more capable.  Might it be worth my time (and $) to convert my
system to an EEC-V system off a '96 or later Ford 1.9, and do my tuning
on that?
3. I have all the sensors including the Vehicle Speed Sensor
connected to the harness, so my check-engine light goes off, but I do
not have the VSS connected to the speedo cable.  If I understand
correctly (mainly from the Probst book on Ford EFI), VSS is used for
economy and emissions purposes, like cutting off fuel during
deceleration.  Is there any reason I should build an adapter so it can
see actual vehicle speed?
Thanks in advance for any help.

Jim in Ohio

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies.
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
Thank You.
**************************************************
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


-- 
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.15/1003 - Release Date: 9/12/2007
10:56 AM


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Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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From galaxiecustom500 at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 13 11:25:53 2007
From: galaxiecustom500 at yahoo.com (J M)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:25:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: O.T. other uses for truck bed coating;
	RE: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
In-Reply-To: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486613D@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
Message-ID: <943816.92870.qm@web57303.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Another use is making steering wheels.  On the 2004 Formula SAE car at Ohio State we used a sheet of carbon fiber cut to shape, added a hard foam to create the grips then sprayed the foam with truck bed coating from the local parts store.  Not as good as the commercially applied coatings but has held up very well.

The past few years we've been using Alcantra to cover the foam instead.

Jason



don.broadus at exeloncorp.com wrote: That is good to know, got the Rhino lining on my truck, it's good stuff




       
---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. 

From 9jim30 at charter.net  Thu Sep 13 11:52:35 2007
From: 9jim30 at charter.net (James Panter)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:52:35 -0500
Subject: O.T. other uses for truck bed coating;
	RE: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
References: <943816.92870.qm@web57303.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005001c7f626$7cffd680$6401a8c0@COMPY>

Is there a good way to remove this stuff once it is applied?   Has anyone 
tried it for use as a garage floor covering?
Jim
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J M" <galaxiecustom500 at yahoo.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:25 AM
Subject: O.T. other uses for truck bed coating;RE: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo 
diesel?


> Another use is making steering wheels.  On the 2004 Formula SAE car at 
> Ohio State we used a sheet of carbon fiber cut to shape, added a hard foam 
> to create the grips then sprayed the foam with truck bed coating from the 
> local parts store.  Not as good as the commercially applied coatings but 
> has held up very well.
>
> The past few years we've been using Alcantra to cover the foam instead.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> don.broadus at exeloncorp.com wrote: That is good to know, got the Rhino 
> lining on my truck, it's good stuff
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who 
> knows.
> Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 




From tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep 13 12:09:54 2007
From: tmc_mike_yates at sbcglobal.net (Mike Yates)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:09:54 -0700
Subject: O.T. other uses for truck bed coating;
	RE: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo diesel?
In-Reply-To: <005001c7f626$7cffd680$6401a8c0@COMPY>
References: <943816.92870.qm@web57303.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
	<005001c7f626$7cffd680$6401a8c0@COMPY>
Message-ID: <fdrie39u8mtv1jtsi0fj4q4vpva47dsjpd@4ax.com>

i saw them removing it from a nissan TiTan that had factory installed
rhino lining.  they were using an inductive heater on the metal bed to
release the liner in small areas at a time. looked like no fun. I
imagine a heat gun or map gas torch would work for non conductive
materials....but i Don't know for sure.

Mike


On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:52:35 -0500, you wrote:

>Is there a good way to remove this stuff once it is applied?   Has anyone 
>tried it for use as a garage floor covering?
>Jim
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "J M" <galaxiecustom500 at yahoo.com>
>To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:25 AM
>Subject: O.T. other uses for truck bed coating;RE: [Diy_efi] Runaway turbo 
>diesel?
>
>
>> Another use is making steering wheels.  On the 2004 Formula SAE car at 
>> Ohio State we used a sheet of carbon fiber cut to shape, added a hard foam 
>> to create the grips then sprayed the foam with truck bed coating from the 
>> local parts store.  Not as good as the commercially applied coatings but 
>> has held up very well.
>>
>> The past few years we've been using Alcantra to cover the foam instead.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> don.broadus at exeloncorp.com wrote: That is good to know, got the Rhino 
>> lining on my truck, it's good stuff
>>
>>
>>
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From byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Sep 13 20:21:27 2007
From: byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net (Jim)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:21:27 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
In-Reply-To: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F94866141@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
Message-ID: <000001c7f66d$92fcaed0$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>

The V-6 tractor looks like it is coming along great.  Do you have a way
to govern the RPMs, like a tractor, or are you going to use a throttle
more like a car?  How much more horsepower does it have than the
original engine?  I saw one at a show once with a flathead Ford V-8,
also looked really cool.  I am reading the book Engine Management
Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish.  Good thing I didn't read this before
attempting the MGB project.  When I see all the things he does to get a
proper tune, I am even more surprised that the Ford EFI system behaves
so well when attached to British cast iron.


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:12 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB

Hi Frank; he is a link that  Mike V. was kind enough to provide

http://www.enzoco.com/mike/8n/



-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Frank McCracken
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:31 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Fyi , a 1947 is a 9n  :-)
I would like to see those pics. How do I find them?
Frank.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
To: <byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net>; <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Very cool Project. I found that working with the EEC IV was not  as bad
as I
thought it would be.
I helped a guy put a 3.0 L V6 Ford in his 1947 8N tractor. No Vss signal
and
it runs great.
I had to make a orifice plate for the IAC to get the idle down for his
non
sycro trans. I also made a remote mount heat sink for the TFI module it
was
getting to hot on the distributor and
shutting down the engine. Pictures on on the twki site . I think your
right
about the injector placement causing problems. Keep us posted and send
some
pic's if you can.


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:25 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Hello, I haven' posted anything on this site since Jan 07.  I see some
fantastic knowledge of EFI systems in the folks posting on this site and
wonder if I can beg for some free advice on several points

I transplanted the EEC-IV system, including the distributorless
ignition, from a '92 Ford 1.9 onto my '71 MGB 1.8.  I had to make
several parts, including an intake manifold from scratch, and adapt the
wire harness, etc.  It is quite drivable, except for hesitation when you
hit the throttle, even though I have not touched the program in the ECU.
The fact that the ECU program works as well as it does shows how
adaptable the MAF system is, as discussed in other comments on this
site.  I can see that it is going lean during acceleration by watching
the voltage out of the O2 sensor.  I also manually injected a little
extra gas during acceleration and was able to make the hesitation go
away.

I am not pursuing any great improvement in power, just trying to get the
instant starting, warmup and drive-away performance we all take for
granted in EFI cars.  I like the look and sound of an old British
roadster, and am happy with keeping nostalgic things like solid lifters
that always tick a little, but can do without the issues that come with
35 year old dual carbs, a manual choke, and the Lucas points ignition
system.
This engine has two pairs of siamesed intakes.  Since my EEC is from a
sequential injection engine, I put all 4 injectors together in the
center of the manifold so it is working more like a throttle body
injection system.

Now, my questions.

1. I assume I need to change some parameters in the EEC to tune
this setup properly - my displacement is different by 5%, my manifold
volume is much smaller, my injectors are wetting the manifold instead of
the intake valves, etc.  I see Tweecers and other gadgets advertised on
the web, but it is not too clear what they can do.  Is the Advantage 3.x
that was discussed here a couple of weeks ago the best (cheapest?) way
to see what this EEC is doing and change the settings?
2. There was a discussion of the EEC-V and it is obviously newer
and more capable.  Might it be worth my time (and $) to convert my
system to an EEC-V system off a '96 or later Ford 1.9, and do my tuning
on that?
3. I have all the sensors including the Vehicle Speed Sensor
connected to the harness, so my check-engine light goes off, but I do
not have the VSS connected to the speedo cable.  If I understand
correctly (mainly from the Probst book on Ford EFI), VSS is used for
economy and emissions purposes, like cutting off fuel during
deceleration.  Is there any reason I should build an adapter so it can
see actual vehicle speed?
Thanks in advance for any help.

Jim in Ohio

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Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
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-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies.
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
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to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
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delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
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**************************************************
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10:56 AM


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From tcsibor at valrox.com  Thu Sep 13 20:44:40 2007
From: tcsibor at valrox.com (TomC)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:44:40 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
In-Reply-To: <000001c7f66d$92fcaed0$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>
Message-ID: <JOEDIIAOJNCLFHGHOMKKKEKGLKAA.tcsibor@valrox.com>

Great looking tractor project. Did you have to machine your own adapter from
the engine to transmission?

Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 6:21 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


The V-6 tractor looks like it is coming along great.  Do you have a way
to govern the RPMs, like a tractor, or are you going to use a throttle
more like a car?  How much more horsepower does it have than the
original engine?  I saw one at a show once with a flathead Ford V-8,
also looked really cool.  I am reading the book Engine Management
Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish.  Good thing I didn't read this before
attempting the MGB project.  When I see all the things he does to get a
proper tune, I am even more surprised that the Ford EFI system behaves
so well when attached to British cast iron.


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:12 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB

Hi Frank; he is a link that  Mike V. was kind enough to provide

http://www.enzoco.com/mike/8n/



-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Frank McCracken
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:31 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Fyi , a 1947 is a 9n  :-)
I would like to see those pics. How do I find them?
Frank.

----- Original Message -----
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
To: <byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net>; <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Very cool Project. I found that working with the EEC IV was not  as bad
as I
thought it would be.
I helped a guy put a 3.0 L V6 Ford in his 1947 8N tractor. No Vss signal
and
it runs great.
I had to make a orifice plate for the IAC to get the idle down for his
non
sycro trans. I also made a remote mount heat sink for the TFI module it
was
getting to hot on the distributor and
shutting down the engine. Pictures on on the twki site . I think your
right
about the injector placement causing problems. Keep us posted and send
some
pic's if you can.


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:25 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Hello, I haven' posted anything on this site since Jan 07.  I see some
fantastic knowledge of EFI systems in the folks posting on this site and
wonder if I can beg for some free advice on several points

I transplanted the EEC-IV system, including the distributorless
ignition, from a '92 Ford 1.9 onto my '71 MGB 1.8.  I had to make
several parts, including an intake manifold from scratch, and adapt the
wire harness, etc.  It is quite drivable, except for hesitation when you
hit the throttle, even though I have not touched the program in the ECU.
The fact that the ECU program works as well as it does shows how
adaptable the MAF system is, as discussed in other comments on this
site.  I can see that it is going lean during acceleration by watching
the voltage out of the O2 sensor.  I also manually injected a little
extra gas during acceleration and was able to make the hesitation go
away.

I am not pursuing any great improvement in power, just trying to get the
instant starting, warmup and drive-away performance we all take for
granted in EFI cars.  I like the look and sound of an old British
roadster, and am happy with keeping nostalgic things like solid lifters
that always tick a little, but can do without the issues that come with
35 year old dual carbs, a manual choke, and the Lucas points ignition
system.
This engine has two pairs of siamesed intakes.  Since my EEC is from a
sequential injection engine, I put all 4 injectors together in the
center of the manifold so it is working more like a throttle body
injection system.

Now, my questions.

1. I assume I need to change some parameters in the EEC to tune
this setup properly - my displacement is different by 5%, my manifold
volume is much smaller, my injectors are wetting the manifold instead of
the intake valves, etc.  I see Tweecers and other gadgets advertised on
the web, but it is not too clear what they can do.  Is the Advantage 3.x
that was discussed here a couple of weeks ago the best (cheapest?) way
to see what this EEC is doing and change the settings?
2. There was a discussion of the EEC-V and it is obviously newer
and more capable.  Might it be worth my time (and $) to convert my
system to an EEC-V system off a '96 or later Ford 1.9, and do my tuning
on that?
3. I have all the sensors including the Vehicle Speed Sensor
connected to the harness, so my check-engine light goes off, but I do
not have the VSS connected to the speedo cable.  If I understand
correctly (mainly from the Probst book on Ford EFI), VSS is used for
economy and emissions purposes, like cutting off fuel during
deceleration.  Is there any reason I should build an adapter so it can
see actual vehicle speed?
Thanks in advance for any help.

Jim in Ohio

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies.
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
Thank You.
**************************************************
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.15/1003 - Release Date:
9/12/2007
10:56 AM


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Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi




From frankmccracken at shaw.ca  Thu Sep 13 23:05:09 2007
From: frankmccracken at shaw.ca (Frank McCracken)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:05:09 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
References: <000001c7f66d$92fcaed0$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>
Message-ID: <005201c7f684$72156830$6401a8c0@flamingo>

Thanks Jim. Very cool project.
It is a an 8n, must be 194'8' and later. 9n, 193'9' to '41, 2n 194'2 to
1947.
Maybe I'll do a similar project when my 1940 9n engine wears out. It's still
got oil pressure........



> -----Original Message-----
> From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
> On Behalf Of don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:12 AM
> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
>
> Hi Frank; he is a link that  Mike V. was kind enough to provide
>
> http://www.enzoco.com/mike/8n/
>
 Jim in Ohio
>



From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Fri Sep 14 09:13:31 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:13:31 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
In-Reply-To: <JOEDIIAOJNCLFHGHOMKKKEKGLKAA.tcsibor@valrox.com>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486614B@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

It is my friend Dales tractor. He machined a 1 inch thick plate to mate the stock 1986 3.0L Ford V6 to the 8N clutch and belhousing.

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of TomC
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:45 PM
To: byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net; diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Great looking tractor project. Did you have to machine your own adapter from
the engine to transmission?

Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 6:21 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


The V-6 tractor looks like it is coming along great.  Do you have a way
to govern the RPMs, like a tractor, or are you going to use a throttle
more like a car?  How much more horsepower does it have than the
original engine?  I saw one at a show once with a flathead Ford V-8,
also looked really cool.  I am reading the book Engine Management
Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish.  Good thing I didn't read this before
attempting the MGB project.  When I see all the things he does to get a
proper tune, I am even more surprised that the Ford EFI system behaves
so well when attached to British cast iron.


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:12 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB

Hi Frank; he is a link that  Mike V. was kind enough to provide

http://www.enzoco.com/mike/8n/



-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Frank McCracken
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:31 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Fyi , a 1947 is a 9n  :-)
I would like to see those pics. How do I find them?
Frank.

----- Original Message -----
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
To: <byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net>; <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Very cool Project. I found that working with the EEC IV was not  as bad
as I
thought it would be.
I helped a guy put a 3.0 L V6 Ford in his 1947 8N tractor. No Vss signal
and
it runs great.
I had to make a orifice plate for the IAC to get the idle down for his
non
sycro trans. I also made a remote mount heat sink for the TFI module it
was
getting to hot on the distributor and
shutting down the engine. Pictures on on the twki site . I think your
right
about the injector placement causing problems. Keep us posted and send
some
pic's if you can.


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:25 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Hello, I haven' posted anything on this site since Jan 07.  I see some
fantastic knowledge of EFI systems in the folks posting on this site and
wonder if I can beg for some free advice on several points

I transplanted the EEC-IV system, including the distributorless
ignition, from a '92 Ford 1.9 onto my '71 MGB 1.8.  I had to make
several parts, including an intake manifold from scratch, and adapt the
wire harness, etc.  It is quite drivable, except for hesitation when you
hit the throttle, even though I have not touched the program in the ECU.
The fact that the ECU program works as well as it does shows how
adaptable the MAF system is, as discussed in other comments on this
site.  I can see that it is going lean during acceleration by watching
the voltage out of the O2 sensor.  I also manually injected a little
extra gas during acceleration and was able to make the hesitation go
away.

I am not pursuing any great improvement in power, just trying to get the
instant starting, warmup and drive-away performance we all take for
granted in EFI cars.  I like the look and sound of an old British
roadster, and am happy with keeping nostalgic things like solid lifters
that always tick a little, but can do without the issues that come with
35 year old dual carbs, a manual choke, and the Lucas points ignition
system.
This engine has two pairs of siamesed intakes.  Since my EEC is from a
sequential injection engine, I put all 4 injectors together in the
center of the manifold so it is working more like a throttle body
injection system.

Now, my questions.

1. I assume I need to change some parameters in the EEC to tune
this setup properly - my displacement is different by 5%, my manifold
volume is much smaller, my injectors are wetting the manifold instead of
the intake valves, etc.  I see Tweecers and other gadgets advertised on
the web, but it is not too clear what they can do.  Is the Advantage 3.x
that was discussed here a couple of weeks ago the best (cheapest?) way
to see what this EEC is doing and change the settings?
2. There was a discussion of the EEC-V and it is obviously newer
and more capable.  Might it be worth my time (and $) to convert my
system to an EEC-V system off a '96 or later Ford 1.9, and do my tuning
on that?
3. I have all the sensors including the Vehicle Speed Sensor
connected to the harness, so my check-engine light goes off, but I do
not have the VSS connected to the speedo cable.  If I understand
correctly (mainly from the Probst book on Ford EFI), VSS is used for
economy and emissions purposes, like cutting off fuel during
deceleration.  Is there any reason I should build an adapter so it can
see actual vehicle speed?
Thanks in advance for any help.

Jim in Ohio

_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

-----------------------------------------
**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to the Exelon
Corporation family of Companies.
This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended
recipient of this e-mail, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation
to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is strictly
prohibited and may be unlawful.  If you have received this e-mail
in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently
delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout.
Thank You.
**************************************************
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.15/1003 - Release Date:
9/12/2007
10:56 AM


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From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Fri Sep 14 09:26:40 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:26:40 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
In-Reply-To: <000001c7f66d$92fcaed0$4001a8c0@JBCELERON>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486614C@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

It Is my fried Dale's tractor he found an optional foot feed / hand throttle. It was an after market deal made in the 40's for 8N's It works real well , he says you can drive it with the tip of your shoe on the throttle. The stock 4 banger probably wasn't much over 25-30 HP I believe the 3.0 L V6 is around 160 HP. Dales says you can't goose the throttle in the lower gears because it will pull the front wheels off the ground in a hurry. I'm with you on the EEC IV being better to work with than I thought it would be.    

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 8:21 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


The V-6 tractor looks like it is coming along great.  Do you have a way
to govern the RPMs, like a tractor, or are you going to use a throttle
more like a car?  How much more horsepower does it have than the
original engine?  I saw one at a show once with a flathead Ford V-8,
also looked really cool.  I am reading the book Engine Management
Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish.  Good thing I didn't read this before
attempting the MGB project.  When I see all the things he does to get a
proper tune, I am even more surprised that the Ford EFI system behaves
so well when attached to British cast iron.


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:12 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB

Hi Frank; he is a link that  Mike V. was kind enough to provide

http://www.enzoco.com/mike/8n/



-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Frank McCracken
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:31 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Fyi , a 1947 is a 9n  :-)
I would like to see those pics. How do I find them?
Frank.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com
To: <byrdhouse9 at sbcglobal.net>; <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Very cool Project. I found that working with the EEC IV was not  as bad
as I
thought it would be.
I helped a guy put a 3.0 L V6 Ford in his 1947 8N tractor. No Vss signal
and
it runs great.
I had to make a orifice plate for the IAC to get the idle down for his
non
sycro trans. I also made a remote mount heat sink for the TFI module it
was
getting to hot on the distributor and
shutting down the engine. Pictures on on the twki site . I think your
right
about the injector placement causing problems. Keep us posted and send
some
pic's if you can.


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Jim
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 3:25 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Hello, I haven' posted anything on this site since Jan 07.  I see some
fantastic knowledge of EFI systems in the folks posting on this site and
wonder if I can beg for some free advice on several points

I transplanted the EEC-IV system, including the distributorless
ignition, from a '92 Ford 1.9 onto my '71 MGB 1.8.  I had to make
several parts, including an intake manifold from scratch, and adapt the
wire harness, etc.  It is quite drivable, except for hesitation when you
hit the throttle, even though I have not touched the program in the ECU.
The fact that the ECU program works as well as it does shows how
adaptable the MAF system is, as discussed in other comments on this
site.  I can see that it is going lean during acceleration by watching
the voltage out of the O2 sensor.  I also manually injected a little
extra gas during acceleration and was able to make the hesitation go
away.

I am not pursuing any great improvement in power, just trying to get the
instant starting, warmup and drive-away performance we all take for
granted in EFI cars.  I like the look and sound of an old British
roadster, and am happy with keeping nostalgic things like solid lifters
that always tick a little, but can do without the issues that come with
35 year old dual carbs, a manual choke, and the Lucas points ignition
system.
This engine has two pairs of siamesed intakes.  Since my EEC is from a
sequential injection engine, I put all 4 injectors together in the
center of the manifold so it is working more like a throttle body
injection system.

Now, my questions.

1. I assume I need to change some parameters in the EEC to tune
this setup properly - my displacement is different by 5%, my manifold
volume is much smaller, my injectors are wetting the manifold instead of
the intake valves, etc.  I see Tweecers and other gadgets advertised on
the web, but it is not too clear what they can do.  Is the Advantage 3.x
that was discussed here a couple of weeks ago the best (cheapest?) way
to see what this EEC is doing and change the settings?
2. There was a discussion of the EEC-V and it is obviously newer
and more capable.  Might it be worth my time (and $) to convert my
system to an EEC-V system off a '96 or later Ford 1.9, and do my tuning
on that?
3. I have all the sensors including the Vehicle Speed Sensor
connected to the harness, so my check-engine light goes off, but I do
not have the VSS connected to the speedo cable.  If I understand
correctly (mainly from the Probst book on Ford EFI), VSS is used for
economy and emissions purposes, like cutting off fuel during
deceleration.  Is there any reason I should build an adapter so it can
see actual vehicle speed?
Thanks in advance for any help.

Jim in Ohio

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**************************************************
This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
Corporation proprietary information, which is privileged,
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From blitz at teamblitz.com  Fri Sep 14 09:37:28 2007
From: blitz at teamblitz.com (Team Blitz)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:37:28 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
In-Reply-To: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486614C@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
References: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486614C@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
Message-ID: <0ED2BFB2A3AC4505ACEF468C0BF1A655@NormPC>

Engine conversions on 8N/9N are nice eye candy, but very quickly you can 
blow the tranny. IOW, you can use all that power on the original tractor 
trans. See Funk Ford six- and eight-conversion guys, who did all this 60 
years ago in kit form. Apply throttle gingerly, or you'll turn it into 
slush. Norm 



From blitz at teamblitz.com  Fri Sep 14 11:50:45 2007
From: blitz at teamblitz.com (Team Blitz)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:50:45 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
In-Reply-To: <0ED2BFB2A3AC4505ACEF468C0BF1A655@NormPC>
References: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486614C@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>
	<0ED2BFB2A3AC4505ACEF468C0BF1A655@NormPC>
Message-ID: <E4EABE3C7BFA4DC39B5B81978E18DBB2@NormPC>

Uh, typo...should have been:  "IOW, you CAN'T use all that power...." Norm

> Engine conversions on 8N/9N are nice eye candy, but very quickly you can 
> blow the tranny. IOW, you can use all that power on the original tractor 
> trans. See Funk Ford six- and eight-conversion guys, who did all this 60 
> years ago in kit form. Apply throttle gingerly, or you'll turn it into 
> slush. Norm 



From don.broadus at exeloncorp.com  Fri Sep 14 12:57:43 2007
From: don.broadus at exeloncorp.com (don.broadus at exeloncorp.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:57:43 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB
In-Reply-To: <E4EABE3C7BFA4DC39B5B81978E18DBB2@NormPC>
Message-ID: <F4F253665838734F841C5B2C63B72F9486614E@CCCMSXCH01.energy.power.corp>

glad you clarified that, was about to go through  the abbreviation list  to see what it meant.

-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]On
Behalf Of Team Blitz
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 11:51 AM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] EEC-IV in an MGB


Uh, typo...should have been:  "IOW, you CAN'T use all that power...." Norm

> Engine conversions on 8N/9N are nice eye candy, but very quickly you can 
> blow the tranny. IOW, you can use all that power on the original tractor 
> trans. See Funk Ford six- and eight-conversion guys, who did all this 60 
> years ago in kit form. Apply throttle gingerly, or you'll turn it into 
> slush. Norm 

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-----------------------------------------
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This e-mail and any of its attachments may contain Exelon
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This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or
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From airhawk at hawkgt.net  Sat Sep 15 16:28:19 2007
From: airhawk at hawkgt.net (The AirHawk)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 16:28:19 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] scope
References: <1189295646.12055.13.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <00a101c7f7df$59ab1360$0302a8c0@MajorDisaster>

?139.00 = $192.00 (as of this morning). So, expect to lay-out a bit more than $200.00 U.S. for that. 
However, that's still a pretty-good price for a 'scope, especially for the features this one offers.

-Scott Creech


> Hey guys, check this one out - I like this enough to lay out actual cash
> for it.
>
> http://www.tigal.com/prodotti_scheda.asp?pid=1132
>
> by far the best bangs / buck I have seen
>
> 135 euros (about the same in dollars) gets you




From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 01:07:35 2007
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:07:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
Message-ID: <190077.22865.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ian" <spyro at f2s.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 6:35 AM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection


> no. compression ignition doesnt imply knock. in fact, a diesel will 
> have
> a nice, constant burn as fuel is injected.

The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice, by Charles 
Fayette Taylor:  Volume 2: Combustion, Fuels, Materials, Design.  pg. 
95:

"In practice, most diesel engines have a rate of pressure rise 
sufficiently high to cause audible noise.  When such a noise becomes 
excessive in the opinion of the observer, the engine is said to 
'detonate' or 'knock'.  It is evident that personal judgment is here 
involved.  Thus, in the compression-ignition engine there is no 
definite distinction between normal and 'knocking' combustion.  It is 
merely a question of whether or not the rate of pressure rise is high 
enough to cause, in someone's judgment, objectionable noise or 
excessive vibration in the engine's structure."

> My engine is turbo'd. cooling the air will result in a denser air
> charge, and thus more power under boost.

A diesel will only make more power under boost when all of the 
available incoming air is used in combustion, i.e. at a very high 
power level.  In a street-driven vehicle, I would expect more power to 
be forthcoming from a diesel only when the pedal is mashed to the 
floor, and possibly not even that depending on road speed and gear 
selection.

|    Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)     1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex)    |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|    didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.  |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|               had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut              |
|  Motorcycle Fuel Injection Hndbk. - http://tinyurl.com/2v5o97 | 




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html


From spyro at f2s.com  Fri Sep 28 04:18:11 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:18:11 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <190077.22865.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <190077.22865.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1190971091.17540.93.camel@wirenth>

On Thu, 2007-09-27 at 23:07 -0700, Adam Wade wrote:
> It is 
> merely a question of whether or not the rate of pressure rise is high 
> enough to cause, in someone's judgment, objectionable noise or 
> excessive vibration in the engine's structure." 

Thats a non-statement if ever I saw one...

I think people were talking about knock meaning 'detonation' where the
fuel explodes, rather than burns.

theres a very big difference between explosive and rapid combustion,
even if the latter happens to be quite noisy. One will make a lot of
noise and the other can seperate the head from the block. In pieces.

As to wether I'll get more power...

If theres more air in there I can put more fuel in. Thats got to help.

Also this engine spends quite a bit of its life with my foot on the
floor. Its small enough that when accelerating to 30-40MPH the pedal is
on the floor for all but gear changes and (unless I want the attention
of PC plod) the first few MPH of 1st gear. Once the WI is up and running
it should be a case of 'undo the max throttle screw a bit' and away we
go :-)



From gassr at charter.net  Fri Sep 28 07:06:27 2007
From: gassr at charter.net (gary)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:06:27 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
References: <190077.22865.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1190971091.17540.93.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <004b01c801c7$ff86e790$6d0b7544@homedesktop>

Ian, are you stating the noisy ringing of combustion due to excessive 
vibration must result in mechanical damage to be considered detonation? 

There are various (3 ?) levels of detonation. In a gasoline engine the
lowest level can continue for extended periods of time without doing
any structural mechanical damage.

Gary

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ian" <spyro at f2s.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection

>> It is merely a question of whether or not the rate of pressure rise 
>> is high enough to cause, in someone's judgment, objectionable 
>> noise or excessive vibration in the engine's structure." 
> 
> That's a non-statement if ever I saw one...
> I think people were talking about knock meaning 'detonation' where 
> the fuel explodes, rather than burns.
> 
> threes a very big difference between explosive and rapid combustion,
> even if the latter happens to be quite noisy. One will make a lot of
> noise and the other can separate the head from the block. In pieces.


From spyro at f2s.com  Fri Sep 28 10:00:49 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:00:49 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <004b01c801c7$ff86e790$6d0b7544@homedesktop>
References: <190077.22865.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1190971091.17540.93.camel@wirenth>
	<004b01c801c7$ff86e790$6d0b7544@homedesktop>
Message-ID: <1190991649.17540.116.camel@wirenth>

On Fri, 2007-09-28 at 07:06 -0500, gary wrote:
> Ian, are you stating the noisy ringing of combustion due to excessive 
> vibration must result in mechanical damage to be considered
> detonation? 

No. but theres a difference between rapid combustion and detonation.
(IIRC, the latter is supersonic?)

> There are various (3 ?) levels of detonation. In a gasoline engine the
> lowest level can continue for extended periods of time without doing
> any structural mechanical damage.

Ive never heard anyone say that detonation (at some low level) doesnt
cause damage. I suppose it depends on your definition of 'extended' and
how hard you push the engine...




From niche at iinet.net.au  Fri Sep 28 10:08:43 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:08:43 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <1190991649.17540.116.camel@wirenth>
References: <190077.22865.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1190971091.17540.93.camel@wirenth>
	<004b01c801c7$ff86e790$6d0b7544@homedesktop>
	<1190991649.17540.116.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070928230748.027fb550@iinet.net.au>>

I think the point Adam is making in all this is the
perceptions and judgement might over-ride the
hard technical facts...

mike



At 11:00 PM 9/28/07, you wrote:
>On Fri, 2007-09-28 at 07:06 -0500, gary wrote:
>> Ian, are you stating the noisy ringing of combustion due to excessive 
>> vibration must result in mechanical damage to be considered
>> detonation? 
>
>No. but theres a difference between rapid combustion and detonation.
>(IIRC, the latter is supersonic?)
>
>> There are various (3 ?) levels of detonation. In a gasoline engine the
>> lowest level can continue for extended periods of time without doing
>> any structural mechanical damage.
>
>Ive never heard anyone say that detonation (at some low level) doesnt
>cause damage. I suppose it depends on your definition of 'extended' and
>how hard you push the engine...
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi


From gassr at charter.net  Fri Sep 28 10:20:09 2007
From: gassr at charter.net (gary)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:20:09 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection (detonation)
References: <190077.22865.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com><1190971091.17540.93.camel@wirenth><004b01c801c7$ff86e790$6d0b7544@homedesktop>
	<1190991649.17540.116.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <004301c801e3$0e955210$6d0b7544@homedesktop>

> I suppose it depends on your definition of 'extended' 
.... several minutes at a time.

> (at some low level)... how hard you push the engine...
Aren't the two related? How could that not be reference to or stating 
the same thing? 

Gary

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ian" <spyro at f2s.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection


> On Fri, 2007-09-28 at 07:06 -0500, gary wrote:
>> There are various (3 ?) levels of detonation. In a gasoline engine the
>> lowest level can continue for extended periods of time without doing
>> any structural mechanical damage.
> 
> I've never heard anyone say that detonation (at some low level) doesn't
> cause damage. I suppose it depends on your definition of 'extended' and
> how hard you push the engine...


From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 11:08:35 2007
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:08:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
Message-ID: <196861.17958.qm@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ian" <spyro at f2s.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection

> Ive never heard anyone say that detonation (at some low level) 
> doesnt
> cause damage.

You have now.  :)  Light detonation isn't even audible, and can go on 
indefinitely at that level without harming the engine.

|    Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)     1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex)    |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|    didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.  |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|               had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut              |
|  Motorcycle Fuel Injection Hndbk. - http://tinyurl.com/2v5o97 | 




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more!
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/3658 


From 9jim30 at charter.net  Fri Sep 28 13:16:07 2007
From: 9jim30 at charter.net (James Panter)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:16:07 -0500
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
References: <190077.22865.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007801c801fb$a4fb2280$6401a8c0@COMPY>

This whole discussion is very subjective.  "Audible detonation" depends on 
how good your hearing is and this is very critical
Also what is the ambient noise level around the engine------cabin 
insulation, exhaust silencing, etch.   I no longer have the same ability to 
hear certain frequencies that I once did.  I thought one time that it was 
only the higher notes but certain other sounds like detonation I also no 
longer hear as well.  If you depend on hearing it you could be in for a rude 
surprise.   I supose a warning light could be rigged to go on at a certain 
level------wouldn't that be a good thing?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adam Wade" <espresso_doppio at yahoo.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection


> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "ian" <spyro at f2s.com>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 6:35 AM
> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection
>
>
>> no. compression ignition doesnt imply knock. in fact, a diesel will
>> have
>> a nice, constant burn as fuel is injected.
>
> The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice, by Charles
> Fayette Taylor:  Volume 2: Combustion, Fuels, Materials, Design.  pg.
> 95:
>
> "In practice, most diesel engines have a rate of pressure rise
> sufficiently high to cause audible noise.  When such a noise becomes
> excessive in the opinion of the observer, the engine is said to
> 'detonate' or 'knock'.  It is evident that personal judgment is here
> involved.  Thus, in the compression-ignition engine there is no
> definite distinction between normal and 'knocking' combustion.  It is
> merely a question of whether or not the rate of pressure rise is high
> enough to cause, in someone's judgment, objectionable noise or
> excessive vibration in the engine's structure."
>
>> My engine is turbo'd. cooling the air will result in a denser air
>> charge, and thus more power under boost.
>
> A diesel will only make more power under boost when all of the
> available incoming air is used in combustion, i.e. at a very high
> power level.  In a street-driven vehicle, I would expect more power to
> be forthcoming from a diesel only when the pedal is mashed to the
> floor, and possibly not even that depending on road speed and gear
> selection.
>
> |    Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)     1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex)    |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |    didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.  |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |               had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut              |
> |  Motorcycle Fuel Injection Hndbk. - http://tinyurl.com/2v5o97 |
>
>
>
>
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> 




From spyro at f2s.com  Fri Sep 28 14:22:19 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:22:19 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <196861.17958.qm@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <196861.17958.qm@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1191007339.17540.136.camel@wirenth>


> You have now.  :)  Light detonation isn't even audible, and can go on 
> indefinitely at that level without harming the engine.

I suppose you guys might like to hear the details of my little project
then...

the water injection is a first step.

Im looking for a second engine and that one is getting 'the works'.

The CL-61 is a 3 pot 1.0 turbo diesel. It makes 56HP stock, and has a
powerband from about 2500-3700 RPM. peak power is at 4800RPM but unless
you've got a really nice new one I wouldnt recommend pushing it that
hard (my last one died of oil starvation at 99.8MPH doing ~4800
RPM :-) )

The idea is...

source another engine

tear it apart. clean _everything_.

get the block lined (its not lined by default) with nice, 21st century
high grade liners.

forged pistons, rods.
custom crank w/ knife edges.
increase oil pressure to 85PSI from stock of 60
o-ring block and head, use copper head gasket
fit turbocharger from 1.0 VW lupo diesel
increase boost
custom headers and exhaust, tuned for 32-3700 RPM
lightened flywheel
replace injector pump with electronically controlled IP. (this allows
control over advance, and fuel quantity and pressure)
water injection (my current project)
intercooler
alternator control unit (dont suck power away when accelerating)

Some stuff Im not sure about though:

high lift cam (unsure how this will affect the engine, its a huge
change)




From buckwill33 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 16:26:41 2007
From: buckwill33 at hotmail.com (Buck Williams)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:26:41 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <007801c801fb$a4fb2280$6401a8c0@COMPY>
References: <190077.22865.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<007801c801fb$a4fb2280$6401a8c0@COMPY>
Message-ID: <BLU102-W39A8D39F3D271E397F1A18CEB20@phx.gbl>

diesellsss doant jsut make more poweeer when all the avaalaiable air is used,,,it makes more ower when any moere fuel is injectedd,, if there isa enough available air,,, enoaugh evailable oxygaen to burn the extra fuel, thats why the urbo is used, add more air for the extra fuel,,, jsut adding turbo doesnat guarantee more power,ass with gasoaaline engiens,,,, fuell,,,,, air,,, compression ,, ignition and exhauset,,, enaough, in the riaght poroportion,,, and everythaing just at the right time makes power buck

zx zx zx zx zx zx zx zx zx zx> > A diesel will only make more power under boost when all of the> > available incoming air is used in combustion, i.e. at a very high> > power level. In a street-driven vehicle, I would expect more power to> > be forthcoming from a diesel only when the pedal is mashed to the> > floor, and possibly not even that depending on road speed and gear> > selection.> >

From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 18:11:00 2007
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:11:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
Message-ID: <819747.22696.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Buck Williams" <buckwill33 at hotmail.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 2:26 PM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection


> diesellsss doant jsut make more poweeer when all the avaalaiable air 
> is used,,,it makes more ower when any moere fuel is injectedd,, if 
> there isa enough available air,,, enoaugh evailable oxygaen to burn 
> the extra fuel, thats why the urbo is used, add more air for the 
> extra fuel,,,

That's another way of saying what I said.  :)  I left out the "extra 
fuel" bit as implied, and of course it is always harder to get more 
oxygen into the combustion chamber than fuel.  Our point is the same; 
that you have a limited amount of power based on oxygen content (and 
of course adding enough fuel to make good use of the oxygen); a turbo 
gives you more air, so if you then provide more fuel, you make more 
power.  With a naturally aspirated diesel, adding more fuel will cause 
power to FALL when under 100% load.

|    Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)     1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex)    |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|    didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.  |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|               had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut              |
|  Motorcycle Fuel Injection Hndbk. - http://tinyurl.com/2v5o97 | 




       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC


From klaus at Innovate-tech.com  Fri Sep 28 18:55:41 2007
From: klaus at Innovate-tech.com (Klaus Allmendinger)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:55:41 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <819747.22696.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <819747.22696.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2972C61@ITFC1.innovate.com>

Hi,

Which brings back the original question: Does WI help on a diesel?
I did some more research on that and also talked to some buddies at
diesel injection development at Bosch (after all, these guys should know
:) ). All sources agree, WI on a small diesel, especially if its
introduced in the intake, LOWERS output power (but can also lower
emissions under some circumstances). In a race diesel engine that also
uses NOX, it can lower combustion temps enough to keep the pistons from
melting. But STILL costs power. The reason WI works on a gas engine (to
reiterate again) is that it lowers the in-cylinder temps pre-spark, so
the fuel does not auto-ignite. In a diesel you WANT the fuel to
auto-ignite. Raising the effective Octane number (and therefore lowering
the effective Cetane number) increases the ignition delay of the diesel
fuel. This means that the injection timing is late relative to the
optimum peak cylinder pressure. Like retarding ignition from MBT in a
gas engine. This cost power. The second reason is that diesels already
run with excess air. If you dilute that air further with water that
turned into steam during the compression cycle, you slow down the burn
time further. This lowers the effective work the engine can extract from
the fuel. Any increase in effective burn time lowers the thermodynamic
efficiency of an engine (diesel or gas). Lowering the efficiency means
you are lowering the output power on a diesel because the amoung of fuel
that can be sprayed during the small crank angle window where it can be
introduced is already limited. The effects of charge density increase
from WI on a diesel do not make up for the power loss from the other
effects. On a heavy duty, large, low rev diesel engine, WI is sometimes
used to reduce NOx production for emissions reasons, as the effects of
lowering efficiency or from increased burn time or increased ignition
delay are small at low revs.
Af course, all the above applies to pure water injection. Not for water
mixed with relatively high proportions of methanol or ethanol. There you
are also introducing additional fuel, which can be beneficial in a
diesel at higher RPMs.

- Klaus


-----Original Message-----
From: diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org [mailto:diy_efi-bounces at diy-efi.org]
On Behalf Of Adam Wade
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:11 PM
To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Buck Williams" <buckwill33 at hotmail.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 2:26 PM
Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection


> diesellsss doant jsut make more poweeer when all the avaalaiable air 
> is used,,,it makes more ower when any moere fuel is injectedd,, if 
> there isa enough available air,,, enoaugh evailable oxygaen to burn 
> the extra fuel, thats why the urbo is used, add more air for the 
> extra fuel,,,

That's another way of saying what I said.  :)  I left out the "extra 
fuel" bit as implied, and of course it is always harder to get more 
oxygen into the combustion chamber than fuel.  Our point is the same; 
that you have a limited amount of power based on oxygen content (and 
of course adding enough fuel to make good use of the oxygen); a turbo 
gives you more air, so if you then provide more fuel, you make more 
power.  With a naturally aspirated diesel, adding more fuel will cause 
power to FALL when under 100% load.

|    Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)     1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex)    |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|    didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.  |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|               had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut              |
|  Motorcycle Fuel Injection Hndbk. - http://tinyurl.com/2v5o97 | 




       
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket:
mail, news, photos & more. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
_______________________________________________
Diy_efi mailing list
Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
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From spyro at f2s.com  Fri Sep 28 19:07:22 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:07:22 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <819747.22696.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <819747.22696.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1191024442.17540.139.camel@wirenth>

On Fri, 2007-09-28 at 16:11 -0700, Adam Wade wrote:
> With a naturally aspirated diesel, adding more fuel will cause 
> power to FALL when under 100% load. 

but my diesel _is_ a turbo...



From spyro at f2s.com  Fri Sep 28 19:10:48 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:10:48 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2972C61@ITFC1.innovate.com>
References: <819747.22696.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2972C61@ITFC1.innovate.com>
Message-ID: <1191024648.17540.142.camel@wirenth>

On Fri, 2007-09-28 at 16:55 -0700, Klaus Allmendinger wrote:
> Which brings back the original question: Does WI help on a diesel?
> I did some more research on that and also talked to some buddies at
> diesel injection development at Bosch (after all, these guys should
> know
> :) ). All sources agree, WI on a small diesel, especially if its
> introduced in the intake, LOWERS output power

you _did_ mention that its a turbo diesel though?

cooler air = more density = more air in the cylinders

more air + more fuel = more bang



From buckwill33 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 19:30:03 2007
From: buckwill33 at hotmail.com (Buck Williams)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:30:03 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <819747.22696.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <819747.22696.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU102-W56DAF7B6A559E3A95E0F7DCEB30@phx.gbl>

also adaammm i forgaot to add sometimes as u ;said,, the engine must be allbe to gain in rpm orhe engines ssurta sjust stalls,,,,, it must be able to gain or it jsust slgs along,,, if it can gain rmp then it can get mroe horspoer,,, if u add more fuel and it cannot gain then loads up , smokes up and slows down,,, like case kin point,, 453 detraoit up against gearfs and speed,, it jsut samokes up but wont pull till its geared into lower gear and allowed to spoin up then sometimes if its ready it takes off,, i also have 5,9 cummainngs, and if i lug it , it wonat pull but if i shift lower let the engine spin then it maksses more exhauset, spins sthe tuirbo up then when boost startss climbing,,, it jsut takes off,,, and i do like tha sound of thatp puppy hitting about 2o on the boost,,, thates power,it takes rpm to make boost,,, which makes rpm which makes boosst,heeeee yaaahhhhh,,,, buck

> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:11:00 -0700> From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Buck Williams" <buckwill33 at hotmail.com>> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 2:26 PM> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection> > > > diesellsss doant jsut make more poweeer when all the avaalaiable air > > is used,,,it makes more ower when any moere fuel is injectedd,, if > > there isa enough available air,,, enoaugh evailable oxygaen to burn > > the extra fuel, thats why the urbo is used, add more air for the > > extra fuel,,,> > That's another way of saying what I said. :) I left out the "extra > fuel" bit as implied, and of course it is always harder to get more > oxygen into the combustion chamber than fuel. Our point is the same; > that you have a limited amount of power based on oxygen content (and > of course adding enough fuel to make good use of the oxygen); a turbo > gives you more air, so if you then provide more fuel, you make more > power. With a naturally aspirated diesel, adding more fuel will cause > power to FALL when under 100% load.> > | Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) 1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex) |> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it |> | didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to. |> | They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |> | The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun |> | had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut |> | Motorcycle Fuel Injection Hndbk. - http://tinyurl.com/2v5o97 | > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC> _______________________________________________> Diy_efi mailing list> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From buckwill33 at hotmail.com  Fri Sep 28 20:08:19 2007
From: buckwill33 at hotmail.com (Buck Williams)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:08:19 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <1191024648.17540.142.camel@wirenth>
References: <819747.22696.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2972C61@ITFC1.innovate.com> 
	<1191024648.17540.142.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <BLU102-W547EF8D18F3E7C080E807CCEB30@phx.gbl>

yes it can helppp , the rulessss areant hard and fast,, if your engine is capable of makiang more power but your up against ,, the temp limit,,, 1250,1300 and u keep making boostt, you will sortly get to sbe able to see the inside of your engine,somethning all these engines are allergic to, is sunshine,,, let it in, show the internals some sonshine and patooiee,,,,, itsll spsit some of it,, engine parts out where u can look at them,thats why water injectiaon is used, if your pushing powerr,, use a proportionate ammaout of waater to keep the exhaust temps beloww the majic limit, and just maybe u can keeapt feetidning it fuel and air and push it some more,if the engineee has sthe mechanical strangth to coantain the horse beiang made, jsut maybe it wont shsow so much of its ddleeicate internal stuff to the nasy ole shsunshsine,, all thisngs in proportian, not too much air,,,,, not too macuh sfuel,, not too much water,,, look aaroaund,, ask the people whos dioing it,, ask um,,, andangit,,, harold kieernan at mcclure equipmeant in bakersfield calif,,, he and his partnerss are posting a vw pickup to salt flats, industrail diesel engine, 2000 2200 i thaink in rabbit pickup at sloome ungodly speed, i know the basics of how to do it,,, but im more moderateeee builderr, i driveee somsetimess wiwth my littel 250 260 o horse 5.9 and wathc them guys with money run 750, 800 horse multi whoop di do 5,9 with propane,,,, nitroaus poslished, super high coampressiaon gas capped 8 , 10 inches boom tubed,,,,, then i drive home,,,,doesnt mean i dont know hwo they do it,, means i choose not to do it tooo mine,im not knowkding thnose who want more power,, or more fun doing it,,,,,my data plaate says im got 215 horse,,,,, but the dyno siayswith the minor changesss ive done, im making about 255,60, i have the fuel plate for 285, , its still lp htenre onmy shelf, im having too much fun with the 260 i have,again im not knowcking those who are seachaing for more,,, but its like when i came back fraomm biet nam, i quit hunting, now some hve poked fun or gottten angry at me sfor stating this and the usual come back is do i eat hamburger ro protk chops,,, of coaurse ido,, i just dont hunt,, i like the taste of the meant,, i just choose not to climb into a pen full of bulls witha ball peen hammer and try to get my own,, since my straoke imnot sure i make senseeee andy moree,,, hope i didnt get tooo far sastray,, buck, oh i am sometimes interested in pushing some limitss to learn,,,,,, i jsut dont want to push so many limits to learn sometnhng that i thaink i already in my gut a i already know the answer tooo,,,i apologize now if i have been perhaps misunderstood, didnt mean too,,,,or offfended anyoane, buck

> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection> From: spyro at f2s.com> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:10:48 +0100> > On Fri, 2007-09-28 at 16:55 -0700, Klaus Allmendinger wrote:> > Which brings back the original question: Does WI help on a diesel?> > I did some more research on that and also talked to some buddies at> > diesel injection development at Bosch (after all, these guys should> > know> > :) ). All sources agree, WI on a small diesel, especially if its> > introduced in the intake, LOWERS output power> > you _did_ mention that its a turbo diesel though?> > cooler air = more density = more air in the cylinders> > more air + more fuel = more bang> > _______________________________________________> Diy_efi mailing list> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From steve at donegan.org  Fri Sep 28 20:32:18 2007
From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:32:18 -0700
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <1191007339.17540.136.camel@wirenth>
References: <196861.17958.qm@web32212.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1191007339.17540.136.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <1191029538.10850.2.camel@wopr.donegan.org>

High lift cam with a turbo/supercharger is pretty much a waste of
effort. Longer duration cam can be a win.

On Fri, 2007-09-28 at 20:22 +0100, ian wrote:
> > You have now.  :)  Light detonation isn't even audible, and can go on 
> > indefinitely at that level without harming the engine.
> 
> I suppose you guys might like to hear the details of my little project
> then...
> 
> the water injection is a first step.
> 
> Im looking for a second engine and that one is getting 'the works'.
> 
> The CL-61 is a 3 pot 1.0 turbo diesel. It makes 56HP stock, and has a
> powerband from about 2500-3700 RPM. peak power is at 4800RPM but unless
> you've got a really nice new one I wouldnt recommend pushing it that
> hard (my last one died of oil starvation at 99.8MPH doing ~4800
> RPM :-) )
> 
> The idea is...
> 
> source another engine
> 
> tear it apart. clean _everything_.
> 
> get the block lined (its not lined by default) with nice, 21st century
> high grade liners.
> 
> forged pistons, rods.
> custom crank w/ knife edges.
> increase oil pressure to 85PSI from stock of 60
> o-ring block and head, use copper head gasket
> fit turbocharger from 1.0 VW lupo diesel
> increase boost
> custom headers and exhaust, tuned for 32-3700 RPM
> lightened flywheel
> replace injector pump with electronically controlled IP. (this allows
> control over advance, and fuel quantity and pressure)
> water injection (my current project)
> intercooler
> alternator control unit (dont suck power away when accelerating)
> 
> Some stuff Im not sure about though:
> 
> high lift cam (unsure how this will affect the engine, its a huge
> change)
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 28 20:35:27 2007
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:35:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
Message-ID: <173554.38520.qm@web32202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ian" <spyro at f2s.com>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection


> On Fri, 2007-09-28 at 16:11 -0700, Adam Wade wrote:
>> With a naturally aspirated diesel, adding more fuel will cause
>> power to FALL when under 100% load.

> but my diesel _is_ a turbo...

Er, yeah...  But I was answering someone else's comments about getting 
more power from a diesel engine.

All the posts in a thread do not necessarily have to revolve tightly 
around the initiating point; in fact, they rarely do, IME (going back 
to the late 80s and netted dial-in BBSes).

|    Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)     1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex)    |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|    didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.  |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|               had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut              |
|  Motorcycle Fuel Injection Hndbk. - http://tinyurl.com/2v5o97 | 




       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/


From espresso_doppio at yahoo.com  Sat Sep 29 00:54:40 2007
From: espresso_doppio at yahoo.com (Adam Wade)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:54:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
Message-ID: <442974.53564.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Panter" <9jim30 at charter.net>
To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection

> I suppose a warning light could be rigged to go on at a certain 
> level------wouldn't that be a good thing?

Probably even easier to simply install a knock sensor on the block (or 
a piezo unit under the washer of one or more of the spark plugs) and 
let the ECU retard ignition timing (within limits) if it detects 
knock.  You could go to ion sensing if you have access to the hardware 
something like that would need.  I'm excited at the prospect of 
closed-loop spark control via ion sensing, and I'm hoping to see 
through the modular ECU project Mr. Donegan and I have been discussing 
for some time now.  :)

|    Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)     1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex)    |
| "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
|    didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.  |
|  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
|   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
|               had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut              |
|  Motorcycle Fuel Injection Hndbk. - http://tinyurl.com/2v5o97 |
> This whole discussion is very subjective.  "Audible detonation" 
> depends on how good your hearing is and this is very critical
> Also what is the ambient noise level around the engine------cabin 
> insulation, exhaust silencing, etch.   I no longer have the same 
> ability to hear certain frequencies that I once did.  I thought one 
> time that it was only the higher notes but certain other sounds like 
> detonation I also no longer hear as well.  If you depend on hearing 
> it you could be in for a rude ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Adam Wade" <espresso_doppio at yahoo.com>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 1:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection
>
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "ian" <spyro at f2s.com>
>> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 6:35 AM
>> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection
>>
>>
>>> no. compression ignition doesnt imply knock. in fact, a diesel 
>>> will
>>> have
>>> a nice, constant burn as fuel is injected.
>>
>> The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice, by Charles
>> Fayette Taylor:  Volume 2: Combustion, Fuels, Materials, Design. 
>> pg.
>> 95:
>>
>> "In practice, most diesel engines have a rate of pressure rise
>> sufficiently high to cause audible noise.  When such a noise 
>> becomes
>> excessive in the opinion of the observer, the engine is said to
>> 'detonate' or 'knock'.  It is evident that personal judgment is 
>> here
>> involved.  Thus, in the compression-ignition engine there is no
>> definite distinction between normal and 'knocking' combustion.  It 
>> is
>> merely a question of whether or not the rate of pressure rise is 
>> high
>> enough to cause, in someone's judgment, objectionable noise or
>> excessive vibration in the engine's structure."
>>
>>> My engine is turbo'd. cooling the air will result in a denser air
>>> charge, and thus more power under boost.
>>
>> A diesel will only make more power under boost when all of the
>> available incoming air is used in combustion, i.e. at a very high
>> power level.  In a street-driven vehicle, I would expect more power 
>> to
>> be forthcoming from a diesel only when the pedal is mashed to the
>> floor, and possibly not even that depending on road speed and gear
>> selection.
>>
>> |    Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)     1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex)    |
>> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
>> |    didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.  |
>> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
>> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
>> |               had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut              |
>> |  Motorcycle Fuel Injection Hndbk. - http://tinyurl.com/2v5o97 |
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
____________________________________________________________________________________
>> Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
>> http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
> 




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/ 



From spyro at f2s.com  Sat Sep 29 03:37:04 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:37:04 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <BLU102-W547EF8D18F3E7C080E807CCEB30@phx.gbl>
References: <819747.22696.qm@web32203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<2C71874F3C26374DB7DBC538FCF82AB2972C61@ITFC1.innovate.com>
	<1191024648.17540.142.camel@wirenth>
	<BLU102-W547EF8D18F3E7C080E807CCEB30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1191055024.17540.146.camel@wirenth>

On Fri, 2007-09-28 at 18:08 -0700, Buck Williams wrote:
> yes it can helppp , the rulessss areant hard and fast,, if your engine
> is capable of makiang more power but your up against ,, the temp
> limit,,, 1250,1300 and u keep making boostt, you will sortly get to
> sbe able to see the inside of your engine,somethning all these engines
> are allergic to, is sunshine,,, let it in, show the internals some
> sonshine and patooiee,,,,, itsll spsit some of it,, engine parts out
> where u can look at them

LOL. thanks for making me smile, buck ;)



From bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 29 04:15:25 2007
From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au (Bernd Felsche)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 17:15:25 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <004b01c801c7$ff86e790$6d0b7544@homedesktop>
References: <190077.22865.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1190971091.17540.93.camel@wirenth>
	<004b01c801c7$ff86e790$6d0b7544@homedesktop>
Message-ID: <200709291715.25626@innovative.eye-eye.net>

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:06 pm, gary wrote:
> Ian, are you stating the noisy ringing of combustion due to
> excessive vibration must result in mechanical damage to be
> considered detonation?

> There are various (3 ?) levels of detonation. In a gasoline engine
> the lowest level can continue for extended periods of time without
> doing any structural mechanical damage.

It's not the machanical vibration that's the problem per se. It's
the rapid movement of gases above the piston to that strip away the
protective boundary layer, exposing the metal to the full heat of
combustion.

The mechanical problems are secondary to a hole burning through the
top of the piston.

That is why e.g. "light knock" is generally OK and a good way of
getting a bit more energy from the same amount of fuel.

-- 
/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
\ /  ASCII ribbon campaign | The object of life is not to be on the side of 
 X   against HTML mail     | the majority but to escape finding oneself in
/ \  and postings          | the ranks of the insane.  -- Marcus Aurelius




From steve at donegan.org  Sat Sep 29 09:32:13 2007
From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 07:32:13 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <442974.53564.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <442974.53564.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1191076333.10850.39.camel@wopr.donegan.org>

Well, unfortunately Mr Donegan has been busy/lazy/etc and hasn't done
much lately on the ECU project except 'analysis paralysis' for those not
familiar with the term it's one used in Engineering where every time you
start to decide on a choice another possible solution presents itself.
In the case of the ECU it's the CPU itself. I will make a decision
before Christmas and get the project back on track.

On Fri, 2007-09-28 at 22:54 -0700, Adam Wade wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "James Panter" <9jim30 at charter.net>
> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection
> 
> > I suppose a warning light could be rigged to go on at a certain 
> > level------wouldn't that be a good thing?
> 
> Probably even easier to simply install a knock sensor on the block (or 
> a piezo unit under the washer of one or more of the spark plugs) and 
> let the ECU retard ignition timing (within limits) if it detects 
> knock.  You could go to ion sensing if you have access to the hardware 
> something like that would need.  I'm excited at the prospect of 
> closed-loop spark control via ion sensing, and I'm hoping to see 
> through the modular ECU project Mr. Donegan and I have been discussing 
> for some time now.  :)
> 
> |    Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)     1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex)    |
> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> |    didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.  |
> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> |               had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut              |
> |  Motorcycle Fuel Injection Hndbk. - http://tinyurl.com/2v5o97 |
> > This whole discussion is very subjective.  "Audible detonation" 
> > depends on how good your hearing is and this is very critical
> > Also what is the ambient noise level around the engine------cabin 
> > insulation, exhaust silencing, etch.   I no longer have the same 
> > ability to hear certain frequencies that I once did.  I thought one 
> > time that it was only the higher notes but certain other sounds like 
> > detonation I also no longer hear as well.  If you depend on hearing 
> > it you could be in for a rude ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Adam Wade" <espresso_doppio at yahoo.com>
> > To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 1:07 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection
> >
> >
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "ian" <spyro at f2s.com>
> >> To: <diy_efi at diy-efi.org>
> >> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 6:35 AM
> >> Subject: RE: [Diy_efi] water injection
> >>
> >>
> >>> no. compression ignition doesnt imply knock. in fact, a diesel 
> >>> will
> >>> have
> >>> a nice, constant burn as fuel is injected.
> >>
> >> The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice, by Charles
> >> Fayette Taylor:  Volume 2: Combustion, Fuels, Materials, Design. 
> >> pg.
> >> 95:
> >>
> >> "In practice, most diesel engines have a rate of pressure rise
> >> sufficiently high to cause audible noise.  When such a noise 
> >> becomes
> >> excessive in the opinion of the observer, the engine is said to
> >> 'detonate' or 'knock'.  It is evident that personal judgment is 
> >> here
> >> involved.  Thus, in the compression-ignition engine there is no
> >> definite distinction between normal and 'knocking' combustion.  It 
> >> is
> >> merely a question of whether or not the rate of pressure rise is 
> >> high
> >> enough to cause, in someone's judgment, objectionable noise or
> >> excessive vibration in the engine's structure."
> >>
> >>> My engine is turbo'd. cooling the air will result in a denser air
> >>> charge, and thus more power under boost.
> >>
> >> A diesel will only make more power under boost when all of the
> >> available incoming air is used in combustion, i.e. at a very high
> >> power level.  In a street-driven vehicle, I would expect more power 
> >> to
> >> be forthcoming from a diesel only when the pedal is mashed to the
> >> floor, and possibly not even that depending on road speed and gear
> >> selection.
> >>
> >> |    Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne)     1985 RX-7 GSL-SE (Rex)    |
> >> | "It was like an emergency ward after a great catastrophe; it  |
> >> |    didn't matter what race or class the victims belonged to.  |
> >> |  They were all given the same miracle drug, which was coffee. |
> >> |   The catastrophe in this case, of course, was that the sun   |
> >> |               had come up again." -Kurt Vonnegut              |
> >> |  Motorcycle Fuel Injection Hndbk. - http://tinyurl.com/2v5o97 |
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> >> Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos.
> >> http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Diy_efi mailing list
> >> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> >> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> >> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Diy_efi mailing list
> > Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> > Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> > Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
> http://tv.yahoo.com/ 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From niche at iinet.net.au  Sat Sep 29 23:11:09 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:11:09 +0800
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injection
In-Reply-To: <1191076333.10850.39.camel@wopr.donegan.org>
References: <442974.53564.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1191076333.10850.39.camel@wopr.donegan.org>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20070930121016.027f46e0@iinet.net.au>>

At 10:32 PM 9/29/07, you wrote:
>Well, unfortunately Mr Donegan has been busy/lazy/etc and hasn't done
>much lately on the ECU project except 'analysis paralysis' for those not
>familiar with the term it's one used in Engineering where every time you
>start to decide on a choice another possible solution presents itself.
>In the case of the ECU it's the CPU itself. I will make a decision
>before Christmas and get the project back on track.

Are you able to tell us who the contenders are, I might be
able to add some more info or confusion for purely academic
purposes  ;-)




Regards from


Mike Massen
Network Power Systems
Lab 08 9444 8961
Mb 0438 048961
Perth, Western Australia
* VL/VK & VN/VP/VR GMH Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt !
* RB30 Skyline/Nissan/VL Milspec ignition drivers with diagnostic features now in economy trials
* Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
* Industrial grade PolyVinyliDeneChloride (PVDC Copolymer) in bulk, the best
  oxygen and water protective barrier you can find for circuit boards.
* Special equipment on offer, 60KVA UPS with large battery cabinet - AUD$12K
Web site under construction   http://niche.iinet.net.au


From buckwill33 at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 29 23:21:18 2007
From: buckwill33 at hotmail.com (Buck Williams)
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:21:18 -0700
Subject: [Diy_efi] water injectionzxzx detonation,,,
In-Reply-To: <200709291715.25626@innovative.eye-eye.net>
References: <190077.22865.qm@web32211.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<1190971091.17540.93.camel@wirenth>
	<004b01c801c7$ff86e790$6d0b7544@homedesktop> 
	<200709291715.25626@innovative.eye-eye.net>
Message-ID: <BLU102-W413C41FE854EDF5416C30DCEAC0@phx.gbl>

detoantaon is direcctly related to "burn rate" and "pressure/time rise",,"flame front" these are the buzz words,,,, detaontation can occurrr in an engine way beya9ond our abilaity to begian to sense it on anyy human reall  time levell wiathout estensive instraumentatioan,i was goaing to tr;ay to descraibe it but with my straoke and typaiang,, i thain, many of u wold soodn becomer boredd and decide that i disnat know what i was sahing,, so i wold urge u to get a trrue undersstanding of ddetonation from google, or nayu other sourxce of knowlecddge, not one but many descraiptions , using theee abovee buzz words ten using those buzz words to look more,, but start with detonation and gasoline engines,,,,,, detonatiaon is equivalaent to trahying to turn and engine  by hitting the piston wiath a sledge hammer  to trun the crank,,, it will move the piston,, but at what cost to the paarts of the engine,,,,,detonation is slapping the piston with horendous pressuree at very short intervals,,,,, whereas burn is pushing the piston wilth lower pressures over longer periods of time, thereeeee is much moreee but i thaink it is beayond my ability to adequately descraive it here,,, buck

> From: bernie at innovative.iinet.net.au> To: diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subject: Re: [Diy_efi] water injection> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 17:15:25 +0800> > On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:06 pm, gary wrote:> > Ian, are you stating the noisy ringing of combustion due to> > excessive vibration must result in mechanical damage to be> > considered detonation?> > > There are various (3 ?) levels of detonation. In a gasoline engine> > the lowest level can continue for extended periods of time without> > doing any structural mechanical damage.> > It's not the machanical vibration that's the problem per se. It's> the rapid movement of gases above the piston to that strip away the> protective boundary layer, exposing the metal to the full heat of> combustion.> > The mechanical problems are secondary to a hole burning through the> top of the piston.> > That is why e.g. "light knock" is generally OK and a good way of> getting a bit more energy from the same amount of fuel.> > -- > /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia> \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | The object of life is not to be on the side of > X against HTML mail | the majority but to escape finding oneself in> / \ and postings | the ranks of the insane. -- Marcus Aurelius> > > _______________________________________________> Diy_efi mailing list> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi> Main WWW page: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi

From cwrxr at earthlink.net  Sun Sep 30 14:51:09 2007
From: cwrxr at earthlink.net (Curtis Richards)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 15:51:09 -0400
Subject: [Diy_efi] Modular approach to EFI controllers
Message-ID: <46FFFE2D.3000307@earthlink.net>

Hi Steve,

In looking for an 'engine' for your design have you considered something 
like the TiniARM from New micros?

http://www.newmicros.com/index2.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newmicros.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fstore%2Forder.cgi%3Fform%3Dprod%26cat%3Dproc

http://www.newmicros.com/cgi-bin/store/order.cgi?form=prod_detail&part=TiniARM 
<http://www.newmicros.com/cgi-bin/store/order.cgi?form=prod_detail&part=TiniARM>


You would then only need to design a control board to plug the module 
into which should be a fairly straight forward double sided board.  Such 
an approach allows an easy path for growth.   As an added extra New 
Micros has a really first rate Forth for their modules which could speed 
up the software side of things

-- 
Curtis W Richards

--
"Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written
Constitution.  Let us not make it a blank paper by construction."

-- Thomas Jefferson (letter to Wilson Nicholas, 1803)



From spyro at f2s.com  Sun Sep 30 17:32:31 2007
From: spyro at f2s.com (ian)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:32:31 +0100
Subject: [Diy_efi] Modular approach to EFI controllers
In-Reply-To: <46FFFE2D.3000307@earthlink.net>
References: <46FFFE2D.3000307@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1191191551.30658.6.camel@wirenth>

On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 15:51 -0400, Curtis Richards wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> 
> In looking for an 'engine' for your design have you considered
> something 
> like the TiniARM from New micros? 

Our basic design will be a low speed/power ARM doing the houskeeping and
feeding of an FPGA 'timing controller'.

the FPGA will handle all the events like spakrk timing etc. as well as
control over an ADC for the gathering of ion sensing data.

the ARM will control the parameters fed to the FPGA and process the ion
sense data read back from it.



From steve at donegan.org  Sun Sep 30 20:15:32 2007
From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:15:32 -0700
Subject: [Bulk] [Diy_efi] Modular approach to EFI controllers
In-Reply-To: <46FFFE2D.3000307@earthlink.net>
References: <46FFFE2D.3000307@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1191201332.10850.59.camel@wopr.donegan.org>

Thanks for the pointer - neat stuff :-) I have been looking for
automotive heat rated items, while your pointer doesn't seem to have
them on first glance I will keep looking :-)

On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 15:51 -0400, Curtis Richards wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> 
> In looking for an 'engine' for your design have you considered something 
> like the TiniARM from New micros?
> 
> http://www.newmicros.com/index2.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newmicros.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fstore%2Forder.cgi%3Fform%3Dprod%26cat%3Dproc
> 
> http://www.newmicros.com/cgi-bin/store/order.cgi?form=prod_detail?=TiniARM 
> <http://www.newmicros.com/cgi-bin/store/order.cgi?form=prod_detail?=TiniARM>
> 
> 
> You would then only need to design a control board to plug the module 
> into which should be a fairly straight forward double sided board.  Such 
> an approach allows an easy path for growth.   As an added extra New 
> Micros has a really first rate Forth for their modules which could speed 
> up the software side of things
> 



From steve at donegan.org  Sun Sep 30 20:20:18 2007
From: steve at donegan.org (Steven P. Donegan)
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:20:18 -0700
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Diy_efi] Modular approach to EFI controllers
In-Reply-To: <1191191551.30658.6.camel@wirenth>
References: <46FFFE2D.3000307@earthlink.net> <1191191551.30658.6.camel@wirenth>
Message-ID: <1191201618.10850.64.camel@wopr.donegan.org>

As Ian says this is indeed our design - I'm simply looking for a proper
automotive temperature rated MCU at this point. One with a 'lot' of A/D
would be nice we'd like to do more than one channel of ion sensing -
that requires fast A/D converters.

On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 23:32 +0100, ian wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 15:51 -0400, Curtis Richards wrote:
> > Hi Steve,
> > 
> > In looking for an 'engine' for your design have you considered
> > something 
> > like the TiniARM from New micros? 
> 
> Our basic design will be a low speed/power ARM doing the houskeeping and
> feeding of an FPGA 'timing controller'.
> 
> the FPGA will handle all the events like spakrk timing etc. as well as
> control over an ADC for the gathering of ion sensing data.
> 
> the ARM will control the parameters fed to the FPGA and process the ion
> sense data read back from it.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Diy_efi mailing list
> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



From niche at iinet.net.au  Sun Sep 30 21:49:31 2007
From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 10:49:31 +0800
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Diy_efi] Modular approach to EFI controllers
In-Reply-To: <1191201618.10850.64.camel@wopr.donegan.org>
References: <46FFFE2D.3000307@earthlink.net> <1191191551.30658.6.camel@wirenth>
	<1191201618.10850.64.camel@wopr.donegan.org>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20071001104735.027ec850@iinet.net.au>>

Silabs have some neat stuff, used to be cygnal,

http://www.silabs.com

Is the FPGA that necessary, I mean, with a fast enough processor
and the appropriate software it should be a chince, even if you had
a second CPU doing nothing but  the timing and ion sensing etc,
you are not going to have the spark events coincident so surely
with a CPU even doing 4Mhz there is enough time, these beasts
are cheap have good a/d and run 20Mhz etc...

mike



At 09:20 AM 10/1/07, you wrote:
>As Ian says this is indeed our design - I'm simply looking for a proper
>automotive temperature rated MCU at this point. One with a 'lot' of A/D
>would be nice we'd like to do more than one channel of ion sensing -
>that requires fast A/D converters.
>
>On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 23:32 +0100, ian wrote:
>> On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 15:51 -0400, Curtis Richards wrote:
>> > Hi Steve,
>> > 
>> > In looking for an 'engine' for your design have you considered
>> > something 
>> > like the TiniARM from New micros? 
>> 
>> Our basic design will be a low speed/power ARM doing the houskeeping and
>> feeding of an FPGA 'timing controller'.
>> 
>> the FPGA will handle all the events like spakrk timing etc. as well as
>> control over an ADC for the gathering of ion sensing data.
>> 
>> the ARM will control the parameters fed to the FPGA and process the ion
>> sense data read back from it.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Diy_efi mailing list
>> Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>> Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>> Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi
>
>_______________________________________________
>Diy_efi mailing list
>Diy_efi at diy-efi.org
>Subscribe: http://lists.diy-efi.org/mailman/listinfo/diy_efi
>Main WWW page:  http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi



Regards from


Mike
Perth, Western Australia
VK/VL Commodore Fuse Rail panel that wont warp, twist or melt, guaranteed  !
Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars
http://niche.iinet.net.au